HOMEBREW Digest #750 Tue 29 October 1991

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		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  Hard Cider Digest (Robin Garr)
  welding stainless (Tom Dimock)
  Re- EASYMASH (Bob Hettmansperger)
  test (Brian Bliss)
  HB Digest (John Bergquist)
  Taps ????? (Art Hebert)
  brazing $tainless $teel (Carl West)
  Miller's book (night)
  Oxidation? Wanna know what it tastes like. (Greg Roody - DTN 237-7122 - MaBell 508-841-7122  28-Oct-1991 1132)
  Darker during fermentation??? (Norm Pyle)
  STUFF (Jack Schmidling)
  Bass Ale (Ron Ezetta)
  Beginning Brewer of Mead (Jason Bogal)
  ref recent glass v. plastic discussion (Chip Hitchcock)
  Wyeast in the refrigerator (Chip Hitchcock)
  Where to get a deal on carboys in Chicago? (Jacob Galley)
  Re: Homebrew Digest #746 (October 23, 1991) ("Dave, Dave, with the cool, clean shave")
  Xmas ale recipe (Phoebe Couch)
  Grapes in beer.. (night)
  Wyeast Bavarian - No Head Starter (Brian Schuth)
  WYeast Bavarian Wheat--No Head Starter
  Naked Ambition (Jeff Frane)
  cinnamon vs. head (krweiss)
  Blanche de les Nieges (Brian Capouch)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 28 Oct 91 08:39:44 EST From: Robin Garr <76702.764 at compuserve.com> Subject: Hard Cider Digest Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com> asks: >I've also noticed a couple of unanswered questions about cider in >recent Digests. Isn't there a Cider Digest? Seems to me that they >are (or were) being stored in the CompuServe Beer Forum library, >but that they originated somewhere on this network. Robin? Got an >answer? Jeff, yup! Our buddy Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu> moderates the Hard Cider Digest, which is up to No. 52, I believe. And yup again, we archive them in .ARC form in the CompuServe Wine/Beer Forum library. Since most of the posts are short, I generally hold them until I have five or 10 and then upload them as a single consolidated file. Look for filenames in the form HCDnnn.ARC, where nnn is the number of the latest digest in the batch. Or, of course, you can have it sent to you directly. Jay is a regular participant here, and he may well have already responded to you with the details. Robin Garr Associate Sysop, CompuServe Wine/Beer Forum Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 08:20:57 EST From: Tom Dimock <RGG at CORNELLC.cit.cornell.edu> Subject: welding stainless The learning curve for stainless isn't bad IF you have the right equipment, which very few people have. The right equipment is a TIG or MIG welder, which are high frequency arc welders which keep the arc submerged in a flow of inert gas (usually argon), use a tungsten electrode (Tungsten Inert Gas -> TIG). The filler rod is fed into the arc by hand or by wire feed. There are persistant stories that people who use this equipment have health problems, but I don't know too much about that. Trying to weld stainless with an oxyacetylene torch will just get you very frustrated. Find a pro welder to do it for you or sign up for the advanced welding course in your local night school and learn to use their TIG welder. Yes, I have done it, and yes, I own a TIG welder. Unfortunately I don't have the argon tank or flow meter for it, so I still get my stainless work done by the guy who sold me the welder. He accepts (actually prefers) payment in his favorite beer - Genesee Cream Ale.... Return to table of contents
Date: 28 Oct 91 10:19:38 From: Bob Hettmansperger <Bob_Hettmansperger at klondike.bellcore.com> Subject: Re- EASYMASH Subject: Re: EASYMASH > the budget of most hobbiest, I decided to base the system abound the old > enameled 8 gal kettle that grandma used for canning. ^^^^^^^ Yes ladies and gentlemen...a grandmomily. In all seriousness, I'd really be interested in a beginners guide to all grain brewing (with or without momilies). I'm getting to the point where I'd like to try, but havn't been able to get my act together yet. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 09:33:46 CST From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss) Subject: test I've been unable to post anything for 2 weeks, and am trying out a different mail address. bb Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 09:52:56 CST From: jeb at sequoia.cray.com (John Bergquist) Subject: HB Digest Please remove my name from the Homebrew Digest mailing list. Thanks, John Bergquist jeb at sequoia.cray.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 07:55:59 PST From: Art.Hebert at EBay.Sun.COM (Art Hebert) Subject: Taps ????? Hello -- I just bought a 5 gallon cornelius keg and since I already has a small kenmore fridge and co2 tank I have a few questions. 1) the fridge I have has a small freezer compartment internal to the fridge and I was wondering if I can remove this? It looks like it provides the cooling for the rest of the fridge. does anyone have a setup like this? 2) also what kind of tap should I get? i have heard mention of some that aerate the beer. Does anyone make a tap that would mount on top of the fridge so I could set my beer mug under the tap? 3) also what steps should I follow to keg my first ale? Thanks art hebert arth at sudshead.EBay.Sun.COM Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 11:06:20 EST From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West) Subject: brazing $tainless $teel I have done a little bit of brazing $tainless, what has given me greatest success was using borax as a flux. Heat the metal and the brazing rod to a dull red, dip in, or sprinkle on, a liberal amount of borax (available in the laundry aisle of the supermarket) melt the borax into place, heat the metal to orange-red and flow the brass into the joint, it's very much like lead soldering, just hotter. Welding SS requires either special rods for oxy-acetylene or a MIG or TIG welder. G'Luck Carl West WISL,BM. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 09:37:22 -0800 From: night at mapme7.map.tek.com Subject: Miller's book Hello one and all, In the past few digests I have noticed several people slaying David Miller's book TCHOHB. Specifically, that it was no good for beginners. It was stated several times that he recommends a beginner to brew a light lager as their first brew. HOGWASH! You might pull out you book and refresh your memory... Let me quote: Dave Miller, TCHOHB page 9. Before the first recipe: "If you are not sure what style of beer you want to brew, I would urge you to choose one of the other recipes in this chapter. They are British ales with much heartier flavor than American lager, and for this reason are easier to brew successfully. The strong flavor and aroma mask many small defects that would be apparent in a light lager. In addition, the higher fermentation temperatures are usually easier to manage. Finally, you can be looser about making substitutions in these recipes." Now, that doesn't sound like he's pushing light lagers on beginners to me... Ahhh, and now in his other book: Dave Miller, Home Brewing for Americans, page 31. "I recommend trying something other than light lager for your first brew." So, I would prefer that if people are going to do book comparisons...they should at least get the facts straight and KNOW WHAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT... before instilling false statements about a good author into beginner's heads. Enough said... Cheers! Mark Nightingale night at tekig7.MAP.TEK.COM Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 09:55:22 PST From: Greg Roody - DTN 237-7122 - MaBell 508-841-7122 28-Oct-1991 1132 <roody at necsc.enet.dec.com> Subject: Oxidation? Wanna know what it tastes like. Just show up to a keg party a day late. One of my most vivid memories from school is the taste of oxidized beer a day or two after a keg party. This would happen only when a hand pump was used to dispense the beer (thus forcing air in to force the beer out) and a partially empty keg was allowed to sit with air in it. Yumm yumm, nothing better than a two day old keg of "rusted" bud..... /greg Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 10:18:29 MST From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle) Subject: Darker during fermentation??? Thanks to all who replied to this question. For those who care, it appeared that my Apricot-Ginger Ale (Xmas brew) turned darker during fermentation. I think RW explained it best: that it probably only appeared darker because suspended yeast, etc. had fallen out (this stuff causes it to appear lighter earlier in the life cycle). Curiosity got the best of me and I siphoned off a glass-full; it was a beautiful amber-red color, not brown as I thought. To summarize, I think I was fooled by yeast in suspension, a dark room, and a couple too many HB's. I bottled it and tasted it; the ginger is the prevailing flavor. The apricot taste is very subtle, but this is why I brewed it now for Christmas. The hope is that the ginger will mellow over time (as I've noticed finishing hops seem to do) and this will be as good a brew as I tasted at Bo's Xmas of '89. I'll probably taste-test once a week until then so I'll report back on it. Thanks again. Norm Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 10:06 CST From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) Subject: STUFF mailx -s EASYMASH homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com To: Homebrew Digest Fm: Jack Schmidling From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn) >Suggestion: DON'T say "applejack" unless you really mean it! You'll save yourself a lot of grief and harangues on liquor laws and the dangers of home distillation. Applejack is a distilled spirit--in effect, it's distilled cider. Wrong! It's distilled FERMENTED cider. >Could we get this one straight? Oxidation leads to the cardboardy taste. Cidery is something entirely different..... It is really wounderful to have all such confusion made "straight" by a simple declaration. Unfortunately, there seem to be a large number of brewers who disagree with you. I don't happen to be one because I have tasted neither in beer and am simply trying to learn something. As a self-proclaimed authority on the subject, I wounder how much cardboard you have tasted that gives you such strong credentials on the subject. Presumably all cardboard does not taste the same so perhaps you would like to suggest an industry standard so that we can all read from the same script. Are we talking about, corregated or the stuff on the back of note pads? What if it is coated? Is is recommended to eat a piece of bread between tasting? Is a little salt helpful? Then of course, we will have to deal with the problem that some folks might like "cardboardy" beer and want to know if it would be better to mash cardboard instead of just splashing around to get that real cardboard gusto. Sorry, it's hard to quit that one. From: Rad Equipment <Rad_Equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU> >To Jack Schmidling and his Oxidation test: You really ought to allow an independent palate to taste the two brews side by side, blind. Not that I doubt your ability to detect flaws. I just think that you get better feedback from someone who has no attachment to the beer. Any volunteers? I use Bud as the low limit and Baderbrau as the upper. Anything in between is acceptable, if not necessarliy desirable. I am not very sophisticated but I can not drink bad beer, even if I made it. As I certainly have made bad beer on occasion, I know what lies beyond the lower limit. I have, however never made beer that tastes like cider or cardboard. >Still it will be interesting to hear how the remaining two bottles turn out. Indeed. >Are they stored at room temp or under refrigeration? Room temp. >What style of beer is this? Nothing exotic. A can of John Bull amber and 10 cups amber dry. Red Star yeast and hallertau hops. I can't grade it on any official scale but it tastes about typical of the extract beer I have been making for 20 years. I would put it in the middle of my Bud to Baderbrau scale. From: hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu >Jack could you please describe for us what you perceive are the characteristics of oxidized beer?? I'm not convinced you know what it is. You are asking the wrong person. I have been "oxidizing" my beer for years and it was not untill people told me that it should taste "cidery or cardboardy" that I started getting sensitive about it. >I ask this in all seriousness because many people have "blind spots" in their sensory perception, while others just don't know what to look for in the flavor. This is true but unless something is inherently distasteful, the rest is totally subjective. >As an example many people who drink light damaged beer come to consider it a component of the flavor they desire. Since most if not all green and clear bottled beers get light damaged (this can happen as fast as 45 minutes in sunlight or artifical light like flourescents.... This thought occurred to me the other day as I was looking at a carboy fermenting in front of a window. I wonder how many people carefully put their beer in brown bottles but forget about the fermenter. >The results of this test supposedly indicated that consumers selected the stale beer as being what they considered the "normal" flavor for the beer and the fresher beers were described as too bitter... When you consider the wierd stuff people intentionally put in home brew, the fact that the vast majority of Americans prefer Bud, along with the subjective nature of taste, one can't help but wonder about the meaning of "normal" flavor. The reason people win awards for their beer is not because it "tastes better" but because it fits into a set of previously agreed to rigid standards of what "normal" beer should "taste" like. Can a million Frenchmen be wrong? They don't even like beer. Can tens of millions of Americans be wrong? They love Bud and given a comparison, most of them will still prefer it to "normal" beer. > Our findings have been that for various flavor defects people's ability to taste specific defects varies, often quite widely with some not being able to taste certain defects at all, and tohers being highly sensitive. The same can be said for any skill. I do not, but one could take the position that it sure seems stupid to spend so much effort and training to learn how to not like something. >I would state that your experiment, while it may prove successful in demonstrating oxidation, may also demonstrate nothing for at least the above reasons. Should your single experiment not show demonstrable oxidation I would not deem it conclusive. I never said it would be conslusive. I am not even defending the splashing and foam in the video. I have changed my process and discuss it later in the video. What I am trying to do is verify the allegations made about the procedure with a simple experiment. If the intentionally rough treatment nor my past twenty years experience produce something that I find objectionalble, then I will be less concerned about minor infractions of the "proper" procedure. js Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 11:29:51 PST From: Ron Ezetta <rone at badblues.wr.tek.com> Subject: Bass Ale A desire for Bass Pale Ale led me to the Cat's Meow. A recipe titled "Bass Ale" (A big zero on the originality index) on page 25 is as follows: 6 to 7 lbs pale malt (2-row) 1 lb crystal 1 pound demarara or dark brown sugar 1 ounce Northern Brewer (1 hour boil) 1 ounce Fuggles (boil 30 minutes) 1/2 ounce Fuggles (steeped 15 minutes) ale yeast Has anyone tried this potion? I'm considering replacing the 1 pound of dark brown sugar with 2 ounces of molasses - comments? -Ron Ezetta- Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 14:42:14 EST From: jasonb at coos.dartmouth.edu (Jason Bogal) Subject: Beginning Brewer of Mead I'm new to the brewing scene, and I was just introduced to mead. I've brewed my first batch, which won't be ready for another two weeks, but I am already afraid to taste it. The mold has something to do with that. If there is anyone who would like to send me some advice, please do so. If this was the wrong place for my message, then I apologize. Jason Bogal Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 12:15:27 EST From: cjh at diaspar.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: ref recent glass v. plastic discussion You suggest -"going to plastic with good sanitation"-. The rap on plastic is that it CANNOT be sanitized for more than a few use cycles; after a while it \\will// scratch, and bacteria in the scratches are extremely hard to kill. The plastic will also adsorb bleach and release it into the wort, giving room for some unpleasant flavors which can be perceived at extremely low levels---that's a Hobson's choice for you! This suggests that anyone who uses a plastic fermenter should do only a small number of batches before throwing it away (or downgrading it to a bottle-soaking tub) and getting a new one. Note that the figures for the 1989 Nationals showed that the incidence of top (1st-3rd place) beers brewed in plastic was HALF their incidence at entry; this brings up the question of what those results would have been if they were subdivided by the age/#-of-uses of the plastic and the type of beer (heavier beers being more likely to mask the off-flavors of traces of infection or chlorine). Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 12:02:09 EST From: cjh at vallance.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Chip Hitchcock) Subject: Wyeast in the refrigerator Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com> writes > If the package does swell completely > within 12 hours, as Bill writes, the best thing to do--outside of > adding it to a starter--is to pop the thing in the refrigerator > until it's going to be used. The yeast issue of ZYMURGY (what an oxymoronic-sounding line!) warns, as have a few people on this list, that sudden temperature changes of >15-20 F can stun yeast so badly it never recovers---it may not be technically dead but it's not going to work very well. Based on other figures in this issue, a starter is important for getting the best out of liquid yeast; at typical yeast population densities, there's only room in the liquid provided for ~10% of the number of cells you'd like in a 5-gallon batch. Moving up to a 2-cup starter, and perhaps leaving it at 65-70F instead of ~80F if you can't be ready to brew soon, should be a win. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 15:38:32 CST From: Jacob Galley <gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu> Subject: Where to get a deal on carboys in Chicago? The best price I've seen in town so far is $20, which stinks. Anybody out there know a better deal around here. Can you recommend a spring water company that still uses glass bottles? Anyone in my area have an extra carboy they're willing to sell? Here is the address to complain to: Jacob Galley, merely an undergraduate in The College gal2 at midway.uchicago.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1991 18:15 EST From: "Dave, Dave, with the cool, clean shave" <SSJY at VAX5.CIT.CORNELL.EDU> Subject: Re: Homebrew Digest #746 (October 23, 1991) Please remove my name from the homebrew mailing list. I have enjoyed it but am running into problems because I have a limited disk quota here. I will be having a friend forward me issues. Thanks Alot! Dave. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 12:55:15 PST From: ithaca!amber!phoebe at uunet.UU.NET (Phoebe Couch) Subject: Xmas ale recipe Thanks everyone, for their great brewing ideas and recipes. I had a party and everyone(50) liked this brew ( 1 month aging.) It has a medium head, a pleasant hint of spices(not strong but very noticeable) and smooth taste. Recipe makes 4 gallons. 4 1/4 lb Austrialian light extract malt (liquid) 1/2 lb crystal malt 1/4 lb choc. malt 1/8 lb flaked barley 1/2 cup brown sugar 2 1/2 oz Northern brewer hops 1/2 cinnamon stick 1 whole clove 1 oz cascade (finishing) Ale yeast. All the grain into the boil,(I added the malts before the water started to boil). After it started to boil, add Northern brewer and spices. After ~45 minutes, turn off burner, add the cascade. After 20 minutes, filter into carboy. clarify and bottle in a week. I know that this isn't very precise instructions, but I don't own a hydrometer yet. To Jack Schmidling: Great idea on your mashing technique. I am looking into getting way from extracts. Does anybody have a good mead lager recipe? I have only seen mead ale recipes. Is there anything I should watch out for with mead? I plan to do it in the basement this winter. P. Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 15:18:19 -0800 From: night at mapme7.map.tek.com Subject: Grapes in beer.. Recently someone asked about using grapes in beer. Well, the other day I happened upon a brew recipe that called for grapes!... I haven't tried it... but it does sound interesting... by M.R.Reese in Better Beer and How To Brew It.: Champagne Beer 6 cups (3 pounds) light dried malt extract 4 cups (32 ounces) white grape juice 10 grams (1/3 oz.) pelletized Hallertaur hops 1 package lager beer yeast 1 1/4 cups corn sugar for priming for 5 U.S. Gallons Ferment at 55-65F Boil hops with malt 25 minutes. Add white grape juice along with water to make up 5 gallons. Ferment down to terminal gravity of 1.004 or below. This recipe doesn't have much grape juice... but a little may do the trick. I would bet that it will be somewhat like champaigne because of both the grapes and the high priming sugar content. Good luck... and Cheers! Mark Nightingale night at tekig7.map.tek.com Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 15:56:32 PST From: Brian Schuth <bschuth at igc.org> Subject: Wyeast Bavarian - No Head Starter Subject: WYeast Bavarian Wheat--No Head Starter I'm new to the digest, so I hope this makes it without any complication... I bought a package of WYeast's Bavarian Wheat yeast Sunday, intending to brew on Tuesday, so I broke it immediately. *6 hours* later the package threatened to burst, and I was out of extract, so I improvised a "mini-mash" starter and pitched the yeast. Apart from a 30-45 minute lag between boil and room temperature, my sanitation was up to my usual standards. Now, 24 hours later, my starter glugs away happily--but there is *no* head or visible krausen. The sediment in the mini-mash extract is goin' round and round, and the starter is definitely *active*, but at a distance you couldn't tell it from any other cloudy golden beverage. It smells okay, a little fruity and complex but no off smells, just strong ale yeast smells. Anyone seen this before? Any ideas? Thanks. Brian Schuth Return to table of contents
Date: 28 Oct 91 18:48:08 EST From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com> Subject: Naked Ambition To Jack Schmidling: The problem with enamel cookpots isn't just the handles falling off--which I'd never heard of before discovering this crowd--but the fact that enamel is crap, and quickly cracks through to the metal--which rusts. The main problem with using the kitchen stove for brewing is damage to the stove. Pots which overhang the burners or lap between two burners, reflect heat downward onto the enamel surface of the stove--which seems to be very hard on the enamel. (This is NOT a momily, this has been observed by these very eyes!) This tends to p___ off the other stove users in the house. I have also been warned off electric stove elements burning out during this process. You find plenty of documentation elsewhere about the desirability of boils longer than one hour, and I needn't go into them here. I think you should also do a little reading about wort chillers; you seem to be under the misapprehension that it has to do with "clearing", by which I presume you're referring to some form of cold break. While this has its place, the real reason is to reduce the wort temperature from boiling to pitching temperature so the yeast can start their work quickly. If I may say so, I feel that your desire to make brewing beer easy and inexpensive is commendable, but it seems at times that you are more interested in hastily debunking traditional brewing practices than in achieving this goal. (Take note of someone like George Fix, who is applying real scientific methodology to homebrewing.) Quick and easy isn't always the answer; sometimes all you get is instant coffee. And please note Dick Dunn's comment in re: oxidation and cardboard (not cider) and the excellent commentary from Rad Equipment and JaH. To Darrylnowinseattle: I noted your reference to the Roaster in the CIS beer forum; didn't you find it a little pricey? O'course, coming from LA... Have you yet made it to Big Time or the Trolleyman? Liz and I were planning on spending last Monday in Seattle, visiting coffee roasters and Liberty Malt but instead spent the whole day and $400 getting the car fixed in Monroe. Feh! Have you tried Thomas Kemper Oktoberfest? Is it still on the shelves? (If you've had it on tap, I don't want to know.) Just thought you'd like to know: Portland's pubs are better! On the question of darkening beer: It's possible that the darkening is a result of extreme oxidation. I had an enlightening conversation with Fred Eckhardt today (he came by to get issue no. 2 of his sake newsletter laid out), in which he explained that chinese shao xing wine and sherry were both darkened deliberately through oxidation (the distinctive sherry flavor is another result). Certainly oxidation is responsible for a brown discoloration in white wines. Somehow, though, it doesn't seem likely that this would happen in the short beer ferment. ??? Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 1991 16:54:16 -0800 From: krweiss at ucdavis.edu Subject: cinnamon vs. head Chad Epifanio writes: > >Somebody had no head on a Christmas Ale: > I've experienced similar problems with three of my spiced >ales. The only ingredient they had in common was ground cinnamon. >I used cinnamon stick in my last batch, and the beer had a pleasant >head. This is just an observation in my beers. My Thanksgiving beer was brewed with 2 TBSP of ground cinnamon. It's only two weeks in the bottle, and already has a nice, creamy head. Also, just an observation... Ken Weiss krweiss at ucdavis.edu Computing Services 916/752-5554 U.C. Davis Davis, CA 95616 Return to table of contents
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 91 19:48:12 -0600 (CST) From: Brian Capouch <brianc at zeta.saintjoe.EDU> Subject: Blanche de les Nieges This weekend my brewing partner brought down some beers he purchased at Sam's (on North Avenue near the Kennedy, for those who ain't found it yet) in Chicago. One of the beers was called "Blanche de les Nieges" (or something somewhat close to that). It was brewed in Belgium, and came in an enameled 330 ml bottle. My question: I swear I can taste coriander in this beer. My friend thinks the subtle, aromatic flavor comes instead from hop oils or dryhopping. Visits to Jackson's guides didn't turn up anything. Does anybody out in HBD-land know anything about this beer? Have any of you brewed with coriander? I happen to have a pretty substantial amount of it, since I like to have a lot of cilantro, and it goes wildly to seed. Brian Capouch Saint Joseph's College brianc at saintjoe.edu Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #750, 10/29/91 ************************************* -------
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