HOMEBREW Digest #942 Thu 06 August 1992

Digest #941 Digest #943

		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  blue stuff, proper credit, oring finale (donald oconnor)
  using freshly picked hops (John DeCarlo)
  How much yeast? (John DeCarlo)
  Why cut the plug? (Dances with Workstations)
  Re : Querying the experts (Conn Copas)
  yeasts/grain bag source (Brian Bliss)
  Wort cooling (BOB JONES)
  Beer Head and Priming (Sam Israelit)
  Your hops are ready to pick when...  (Carl West)
  Cold Break Temperature (Alan Edwards)
  Why Mash Out? (Alan Edwards)
  Beer foam secret revealed (John Palkovic)
  Any _Must See_ places in Vienna and Munich? (Douglas DeMers)
  Wyeast (korz)
  Carbonation (korz)
  Re: Brewpubs in Denver (Michael Howe)
  mashing in styrofoam (John Freeman)
  Aluminum kegs (Patrick J. Volkerding)
  Re: Use of Vegetable Steamer & Grain Bag (Larry Barello)
  WYEAST Etymology (HBD ("Mr. Pete")
  Cooler Lauter Tun (Paul dArmond)
  Water treatment & sparging (Gerald Andrew Winters)
  verdigris (Micheal Yandrasits)
  Infections from tap water? (pmiller)
  MASHOUT v.s. SPARGING (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: Sparging (Larry Barello)
  Brewpubs in Denver? (John Adams)
  British v Other pale malted grains (Brett Shorten)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 00:30:31 -0500 From: oconnor at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (donald oconnor) Subject: blue stuff, proper credit, oring finale This blue stuff on the copper tubing is interesting. I apologize for not having followed the thread until reading Kinney's post. I'm a very discriminating reader; I only read posts that have my name associated with them. Since Kinney makes and sells copper wort chillers, it seems a bit convenient for him to have dismissed the blue stuff for years. I also make wort chillers and Lynne sells them. I have not seen these blue flakes but I'm a chemist so lets see if we can figure this stuff out. As best as I can tell, it's blue and insoluble in water. There are many copper salts that fit this description. Copper sulfate is green and soluble, so we can rule it out. Verdigris can mean either and acetate salt or a hydroxide salt of copper. The latter is both blue and insoluble. There are also copper salts of phosphate, nitrate, carbonate, and arsenate that are both blue and insoluble. It should be fairly easy to determine if one of these is the culprit. We could use a little chalk (carbonate), tsp (phosphate), distilled water and a few other simple chemicals to ferret out most of these possibilities. If someone would like to email me more of the particulars of how this blue stuff appeared, I'd be glad to have a go at it. There's often a good deal of discussion on the digest about picnic cooler lautertuns, slotted tubing, pot scrubbers, kegging and converting old water heaters into burners. I would just like to mention that Al Andrews of Riverside California (whom I've never met in spite of living there during graduate school) published a great deal of useful detailed information about these things a decade or so ago. For example, I think it was Kinney who a few months ago took credit for the pot scrubber on the bottom of the pickup tube idea, even though I first saw that idea in an Al Andrews publication, The Tapper, of 1981. Now Kinney, I realize that 2 people can independently come up with the same good idea, but it's a scientific fact that excessive self-backslapping can knock a few memory chips off line. Al Andrews may still sell back copies of his Tapper so people might try getting in touch with him.Al Andrews used to make and sell really beautiful wort chillers not like the cheap ones Kinney and I make. See the picture on page 293 of the Papazian's new edition to see what I mean. NOW! Who wants to challenge me about those orings? You boneheads are wearing me down. One heretic (I'm sorry I forgot who) actually offered to send me an oring that still smells like root beer. I, of course, ignored it because like Kinney I'm not interested in any facts that contradict my truth. Glenn Tinseth had the brass to discuss the chemistry of this business (he's a chemist too). I'm sorry Glenn but I feel much more macho taking on these "IS TOO!" types like Kinney and Jack. By the way Kinney, the next meeting in Austin for the support group for humans who have been abducted by aliens is September 13. (I'm not making this up.) Bring your o-rings. Don O'ringConnor Return to table of contents
Date: Wednesday, 5 Aug 1992 08:40:30 EDT From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo) Subject: using freshly picked hops >From: CHUCKM at CSG3.Prime.COM >Subject: using freshly picked hops >Is there any reason why I souldn't use freshly picked hops for >brewing. (eg. direct from the vine to the pot). Must they >always be dried before using. I have been wondering about this too, and polling every local brewer I know who grows hops. As far as I can tell, it depends on how relaxed you are <g>. If you *don't* dry your hops, you have to either not care about how much bitterness they add or use some rough rule-of-thumb, such as 6 oz. of fresh hops = 1 oz. of dried hops. (Of course, you still don't know what alpha acid rating the hops have anyway.) I suppose if a cup of dried hops is about an ounce, then the same would be true for fresh hops. In conclusion, I have no hard data, and people do all kinds of things from careful drying, air removal, and freezing to dumping them in fresh from the vine, without problems. Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org) Fidonet: 1:109/131 Return to table of contents
Date: Wednesday, 5 Aug 1992 08:41:07 EDT From: m14051 at mwvm.mitre.org (John DeCarlo) Subject: How much yeast? >From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU >Subject: One gallon mead? >Maybe I should re-hydrate the Red Star package and dump some of >it in the one-gallon carboy? I could get a mason jar, sterilize >it, and put the majority of the yeast in that in my fridge. I hear this from new brewers all the time. As far as I know, even for mead, the more yeast you pitch the better off you are, since it reduces the lag time during yeast reproduction. Can anyone point me to a reference that describes the typical yeast reproduction activity for homebrewers? (Something like: 1) Throwing in one packet of yeast scenario--fifteen minutes for yeast cells to rehydrate and acclimate, twenty minutes for yeast population to double once, doubles twenty times before fermentation begins, lag time of 7 hours.) You see, I have no idea how long it takes the yeast to double in population, how much yeast you have in 5 gallons before fermentation begins, or how much yeast you might expect in a dry yeast packet (which itself might have only 30% viability), a Wyeast packet, a pint starter at kraeusen, etc. Thanks.  Internet: jdecarlo at mitre.org (or John.DeCarlo at f131.n109.z1.fidonet.org) Fidonet: 1:109/131 Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 09:52:09 EDT From: Dances with Workstations <buchman at marva1.ENET.dec.com> Subject: Why cut the plug? Several missives have discussed how best to cut a hops plug in order to get it into the carboy for dry hopping. Far easier than cutting, though, is to moisten the plug with an ounce or two of preboiled water. Or you can use an ounce of vodka, and perhaps get some extra protection from infection. The moistened hop plug will be supple enough to push through the neck of the carboy. Enjoy, Jim Buchman Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 14:55:53 BST From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk> Subject: Re : Querying the experts Sorry, people, but I screwed up a post. Here is the original statement : > Secondly, Rajotte (in "Belgian Ale") and formation of higher alcohols. He > makes > a rather vague claim that yeast activity increases said alcohols, therefore > oxygenation of the wort prior to pitching reduces same. Rajotte actually suggests that oxygenation >increases< higher alcohols, which I interpret as contradicting Fix. - -- Loughborough University of Technology tel : (0509)263171 ext 4164 Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre fax : (0509)610815 Leicestershire LE11 3TU e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut G Britain (Internet):C.V.Copas%lut.ac.uk at nsfnet-relay.ac.uk Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 10:14:26 CDT From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss) Subject: yeasts/grain bag source >Meanwhile, I have in a secondary in my basement five or so gallons of >mead that has been inactive for at least three weeks. It's looking >very clear, yet I was thinking that maybe I could take some of the mead >from that carboy and dump it in the one galloner. Would the inactive yeast >from that mead work in this new environment? Or is this a bad idea? > >Maybe I should re-hydrate the Red Star package and dump some of it in the >one-gallon carboy? I could get a mason jar, sterilize it, and put the >majority of the yeast in that in my fridge. It isn't a good idea to use the slurry from higher-alcohol brews, mead included. The alcohol can kill or stunt most of the yeast, leaving only foreign or mutant alcoohol-tolerant strains active. The last little bit of fermentation they do won't affect the flavor too much, but you can get some foul stuff if they do the majority of the fermentation. Of course you can try (in order to get a more alcohol-tolerant strain of yeast), but make sure to make a starter first, and see what it tastes like. I wouldn't think one package (7g) would be too much yeast for a 1-gal batch. I've done it before (red star champagne, to make a *very* dry cider) with no adverse effects (other then the dryness). - -------------------- which bring up the next post: >I have an apple tree outside my apartment and I was wondering >how to make a hard cider. A friend has one of those juicer >machines and I was thinking that would be a good way to get the >juice from the apples but where do you go from there. > >If anyone has some recipes or suggestions please help and THANKS. don't use red star champagne yeast (ale yeast will make a sweeter product). - -------------------- >Can anyone give me a source for the grain bags ?? got mine from: the Grape & Grain 1211 N 8th Springfield, IL. 62702 (217) 789-7733 - -------------------- >Is the Wyeast Belgian Ale yeast closer to the yeast in a Duvel or that >in a Chimay Red? It's not really close to either. It's closer to a wine yeast. bb Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 08:25 PDT From: BOB JONES <BJONES at NOVAX.llnl.gov> Subject: Wort cooling I use a immersion chiller placed in my kettle to cool the wort. During the summer months the tap water is warmer and I will use another immersion chiller to pre-cool the water by placing this cooler in a 5 gal bucket of cracked ice. It does seem to help some. I always keep a few milk jugs in the freezer for this purpose. I have wondered if it would help to add salt to the water before it freezes. This works to lower the temperature when freezing ice cream, so why not in cooling wort? Bob Jones Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 09:38:42 PDT From: sami at scic.intel.com (Sam Israelit) Subject: Beer Head and Priming I just opened the first bottle of my version of the TCJoHB Maerzen and it has almost no head!!! I get about an 1/8 of an inch, but this rapidly disappears. Bummer . . . I believe the culprit is the way I primed. In the past I have used corn sugar. Armed with my new HBD knowledge, I decided to prime with dry malt extract. I used 1.25 cups of boiled in about 2 cups of water. I think the problem is that I didn't pack the DME into the measuring cup. I treated it kindof like flour when I am making bread (which also occaisionally doesn't work!) so don't thin that I got enough DME for a proper prime. My question is, does anyone know the weight of DME that they use for priming? Is this a completely wrong idea? Is there something else I am doing wrong (related to this topic since there are probably numerous things that would cause a purist to cringe)? The maerzen tastes great, but there just isn't much head to it at all. Any comments would be appreciated . . . Sam Israelit Engineer, Businessman, . . . Brewer Portland, OR Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 11:48:14 EDT From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West) Subject: Your hops are ready to pick when... Your hops are ready to pick when: - They feel papery and dry when you squeeze them - The lupulin glands at the bases of the petals of the cones are a dark yellow, like the yellow of the lines on the highway. If the tips of the petals are turning brown, PICK NOW! they're getting too old. Hint for picking: I've found that the stems of the cones are to tough to pinch through with my thumbnail, and simply pulling tends to rip the plant apart. What worked on my Bullion and Hallertaur was to grip the cone by the petals right next to the stem and bend the cone 90 degrees and pull. This allowed me to pick with one hand and hold the container with the other. I grew mine on poles that were strapped to 4' iron stakes driven into the ground. When it came time to harvest, I just unstrapped the pole, laid it down, picked the hops that were ready (all of them), then strapped the pole back up. This was very convenient because the pole holds everything very still while the picking is going on. I'm leaving the vines up instead of cutting them down in hopes that the rhizomes will continue to grow and be that much bigger and healthier next year. The hops are now in jars in the freezer, I'll dry them when I get home from Pensic. Any body see a problem with that? Carl WISL,BM. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 09:54:35 PDT From: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards) Subject: Cold Break Temperature Al Korzonas writes (in HBD #941): | In his talk on wort chillers at the Conference, Jeff Frane said the most | enlightening (to me) fact of the whole conference: that cold break begins | at 65F. Wow! Has anyone heard this statement made anywhere else? Anyone's experience bear this one out? I have a VERY hard time believing that you need to cool below 65F before you start getting cold break. Before I started using an immersion chiller, I had maybe half an inch of break material in my primary fermenter. Now that I chill the wort down to about 70F, I get at least three inches of cold break (after it settles for a few hours). -Alan .------------------------------------. | Alan Edwards: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov | Ren & Stimpy in '92! | or: alan-edwards at llnl.gov | (about as REAL as the others) `------------------------------------' Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 10:05:06 PDT From: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov (Alan Edwards) Subject: Why Mash Out? Steve Hamburg writes (in HBD #941): | Simply put, mash-out is the final act of mashing. By boosting the heat of | your mash to 170-175F and holding for about five minutes, you effectively end | starch conversion. NOVICE ALERT! I have a question. If the goal of mashing is to convert all starch into sugar, then why do you need to halt this process? If mashing is complete, and there is no starch left, aren't the enzymes just sitting there doing nothing anyway? Is there something else going on? -Alan .------------------------------------. | Alan Edwards: rush at xanadu.llnl.gov | Member: The Hoppy Cappers | or: alan-edwards at llnl.gov | homebrew club, Modesto, CA `------------------------------------' Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 12:29:07 -0500 From: John Palkovic <john_palkovic at ssc.gov> Subject: Beer foam secret revealed Conn Copas writes, in HBD #941: >Hate to do it folks, but its amateur chemistry time again. First, the >reasons behind head retention. Miller states that proteins reduce >surface tension of CO2 bubbles, thus facilitating retention. This >piece of reasoning was also repeated in a recent Zymurgy article. This >doesn't sound altogether intuitive to me. Also, I distinctly remember >a physics class in which we added detergent to water in order to >reduce its surface tension; yet detergent is the nemesis of head >retention. So what gives? There is a nice letter in the July 92 Physics Today, pg. 91, about beer foam and (the lack of) champagne foam. ("I Get No Thick from Champagne") It is from a Gianni Astarita of the Univ. of Naples Federico II in Italy. He says that film stability is influenced by the "Marangoni effect" and that ... When mass transfer is taking place (in this case, when CO2 is being desorbed in the gas phase), the thin films are or are not stable depending on the *sign* of the derivative of the surface tension with respect to concentration. He goes on to note that the sign of the derivative is influenced by the presence of proteins from malted barley. -John Palkovic Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 10:37 PDT From: dougd at uts.amdahl.com (Douglas DeMers) Subject: Any _Must See_ places in Vienna and Munich? In a couple weeks, I will be in Vienna (and I don't mean Virginia!) for a couple days, followed by five more days in Munich. Now that my homebrewing habit is firmly re-established, I thought it would be nice to visit some brewing-related sights as well as the usual touristy stuff. My wife and I will have a rental car; staying at B&B's and our itinerary is very open at the moment. She'll be in Vienna the previous week for a conference and I'll meet her there. Any Must See or Must Do suggestions greatly appreciated! Thanks. E-mail to the address below: __ Douglas DeMers, | (408-746-8546) | dougd at uts.amdahl.com Amdahl Corporation | | {sun,uunet}!amdahl!dougd [It should be obvious that the opinions above are mine, not Amdahl's.] [ Amdahl makes computers, not beer. ] Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 12:44 CDT From: korz at ihpubj.att.com Subject: Wyeast The answers to three questions from jao and Jay Marshall: Wyeast is pronounced "Why-yeast" and yes, it is related to the Indian legend, and I believe the mountain in the legend is now commonly known as Mt. Hood. Wyeast Belgian is (allegedly) the Chimay yeast. I must add my usual advice when mentioning Wyeast Belgian, and that is that when I fermented it at 68F, it came out with an intense banana aroma -- I strongly recommend that you ferment with this yeast at a lower temperature to reduce ester production -- let's say 60F. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 13:06 CDT From: korz at ihpubj.att.com Subject: Carbonation Jay writes: Hmm, for myself and other judges I know of these are both correct, i.e. mouthfeel is a measure of smootheness and fullness of the beer, and how well blended the carbonation is. In other words how the beer feels in your mouth. This is a complex sensation, and comprises an interplay of the factors of body and carbonation (poor carbonation feels prickly or sharp and "bites" at your tongue). This sounds a bit confusing. I'm not sure what you mean, especially regarding "poor." As we all know, each style has its appropriate level of carbonation, e.g cask conditioned bitter is virtually flat whereas some Belgian Ales really sparkle (what I would call prickly or sharp). So, do you mean that *over*carbonation feels prickly, etc.? If this is the case, then I agree, otherwise, I'm confused by the part of your statement which is in parentheses. I just thought of another situation: the size of the bubbles, however I haven't quite figured out how to control bubble size. Some have said (here in the HBD) that priming with malt extract in stead of corn sugar gives finer carbonation (smaller bubbles), but I can't see how this could be (does someone have an explanation?). I suspect that the bubble size has to do with surface tension and the body of the beer (this may be where the mouthfeel brings it all together). Comments? Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 10:46:18 -0600 From: Michael Howe <howe at gp_sparc45.gwl.com> Subject: Re: Brewpubs in Denver Gary Franko asks: > I am looking for brewpubs in Denver, Boulder, Golden area. Any > suggestions or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. Gary, There are quite a few brewpubs in the area. Some of the more popular are as follows: Rock Bottom - 16th St. Mall (Downtown Denver) Wynkoop Brewery - (about)18th & Wynkoop (Downtown Denver) Champions Brewery - 15th and Larimer (Downtown Denver) Walnut Brewery - Walnut St. - (Boulder) Oasis Brewery - Canyon St. - (Boulder) Those are the main ones in the area. There are still a number more around the area, including some in Ft. Collins, as well as the mountains(i.e. Vail). If you would like to find out more, just mail me at: howe at gp_sparc45.gwl.com Michael Howe P.S. - If you want my opinion, go to the Wynkoop Brewery if you're in Denver or the Walnut Brewery if you are in Boulder. The Walnut Brewery and Rock Bottom are owned by the same guy, so the atmosphere and beer at each place is pretty similar. The beers at Champions and Oasis aren't quite as good. Each of the places usually has at least one special, seasonal beer available. You might call ahead when you are here to see if something interests you. P.P.S - Keep in touch - let me know what you think of everything when you go. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 13:31:06 CDT From: jlf at palm.cray.com (John Freeman) Subject: mashing in styrofoam > > > I do a single temp infusion mash in a styrofoam cooler, > > Ouch!!, this really doesn't impart any nasty flavors into the beer?? > I know at thispoint it isn't alcoholic, but still I wonder how safe > this is. I myself am using the 5 gallon plastic Gott water cooler, > which is at least food grade. > Hi, Jay. No nasty flavors I'm aware of. I finally retired my first styrofoam cooler after eight years of service. A new one set me back $1.79. I'm not a chemist, but I don't think styrofoam reacts with water in any way. After all, it makes great coffee cups (I can see the environmentally sensitve reeling at that). Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 13:49:57 -0500 From: volkerdi at MHD1.moorhead.msus.edu (Patrick J. Volkerding) Subject: Aluminum kegs jeorg at chs.com (Houck) writes: > i've purchased a keg from the local liquor store, and had the > top cut out only to be told that it is made out of aluminum. > i'm sure i read in the digest that all the major breweries used > only stainless these days. what's the deal? (this one was from > miller) The keg I use is SS (from Swiller). Before scrapping your keg, though, I would check to see if it has a polypropylene coating inside. If it does, go ahead and use it anyway, because your brew will never touch the aluminum. My keg has this plastic coating inside, and as long as you don't heat up the keg dry, it will survive the heat of a boil. I use a 160K BTU propane cooker on mine and the coating is still fine after many boils. If I'm not mistaken, this is the same plastic used for the bucket of the BruHeat boiler. Pat FWIW, I would go ahead and use it whether it had the coating or not. I think the dangers of aluminum are highly overrated. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 11:35:38 PDT From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET (Larry Barello) Subject: Re: Use of Vegetable Steamer & Grain Bag In HBD #941 John Yoost writes: >RE: Jack S. >Jack says why use the Steamer if you have a grain bag ? >I am not an all-grain masher yet but..... >It seems to make perfect sense to me to create a 'uniform pocket' under the >grain bed without having to fasten the bag. >And no Jack we don't need an EASY-MASHER. > >Can anyone give me a source for the grain bags ?? > 1. Leave the personal jabs out of postings. It doesn't reflect well on the poster (e.g. you). 2. I have a spare grain bag that I will be willing to sell you cheap. I use a close fitting false bottom that I fabricated out of a sheet of polycarbonate plastic (HDPE or polypropolene should work as well). I think grain bags are a compromise - they don't sparge fast, they are not too efficient, they are a hassle to clean and they are expensive (mine cost ~$12) 3. Although I am not an EasyMasher user, it sounds inexpensive, easy to use and clean and probably not too bad for efficiency if your pot is fairly tall and narrow. In addition it doubles as a nice boiler complete with straining drain. Email me for an address if you are serious about buying a sparge bag. Mine was used only twice. - -- Larry Barello uunet!polstra!larryba Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 05 Aug 92 14:31:55 EDT From: "Mr. Pete" <ENM09857%UDELVM.BITNET at VTVM2.CC.VT.EDU> Subject: WYEAST Etymology (HBD Fellow Hop-Heads: In HBD #941, the question came up as to the origin of WYEAST. JAO was on the right track about the reference to a mountain nearby, although it is not Mt. Adams or St. Helens. The name Wy'east is the name the local Native Americans gave to what is also known as Mt. Hood. Note that the spelling is different than that of the yeast company, but this is to reflect the nature of the buisness, and a bit of the local history. WYEAST (the yeast-maker) is located in the foothills of WY'EAST (the mountain), unless of course, they've moved. Well, that's all for now. Don't forget: ATTITUDE IS EVERYTHING!!!!!! Mr. Pete Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 1992 11:32:04 -0700 (PDT) From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu> Subject: Cooler Lauter Tun I also use a lauter tun made from a Gott/Rubbermaid 5-gal drink cooler. My grain bag was obtained at the local homebrew/wine shop, sold as a "press bag" for a winepress. Many of the mailorder beer/wine-making catalogs carry these. I think mine was made by Wine-Art. It is very strong and I have no difficulty carrying up to 12 pounds of wet soggy spent grain over to the nighbor's cows. The upper lip of the cooler has a flexible lip that forms a seal when the lid is screwed down. This lip is handy for tying the bag in place with string. If you aren't using a bag yet, I highly reccomend it. The stainless steel vegetable steamer under the bag is necessary part. If you just use the bag alone, it will not leave a liquid space at the bottom. This will force the wort to channel through the grain and leave a "dead space" on the bottom opposite the outlet. The liquid space under the steamer allows the flow to be evenly distributed over the entire horizontal cross section of the grain bed. I put a small stainless collander on top of the grain. This protects the top of the grain bed from being stirred up by the sparge water. It also holds the small submersible pump that recirculates the wort to clarify it. My pump is made for aquarium use. It is rated at 16 Gal/Hr. In twenty minutes the wort is crystal clear. I'm very pleased with how it works, and my arm no longer gets tired from pouring the recycled wort back in the top of the lauter tun. The collander is handy during sparging, in case my attention wanders and the liquid level drops below the grain. Sparging takes about 40 minutes. I will run much faster than this, but I find I get a better yeild with pauses. The next time you are sparging, and it is starting to lighten up, take a sample and stop draining for 5 minutes. After the pause, take another sample. It will be richer. I suspect that this is far more elaborate than is necessary to brew good beer. Yeild isn't all that important: Stronger beer takes more grain. If it tastes good, you did it right. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 15:19:52 -0400 From: Gerald Andrew Winters <gerald at engin.umich.edu> Subject: Water treatment & sparging Larry Barello recently wrote: >I use the following chart that I calculated out. I don't >use burton salts since I have not a clue as to what proportions of >gypsum, salt and epsom salt are in it. >Calcium Chloride dihydrate: > 73ppm/gm/gal Ca++ > 127ppm/gm/gal CL- Larry, I would like to know of a supplier for Calcium Chloride dihydrate. I remember reading a post from you about a year ago and how CCd was helpful for sparge efficiency. Also, my water supply is rather high in sulfate concentration so adding gypsum can be deleterious (at least for lager brewing). The CCd would be perfect. So I called many chemical suppliers (>5) and none would do business with individual buyers, only company's and such. So I gave up and forgot about it. Now I read your post and I am once again pissed off that this chemical is unavailabe to me. So please, tell me where I can purchase this stuff. By the way, I tried to email Larry directly on this but my mailer bounced it back to me. Jim DiPalma wrote: > I use both the hydrometer and the taste test to determine when to >quit sparging, and have found that the taste of tannin first becomes >noticeable around 1.020. At about 1.015 - 1.010, there is no longer >any detectable sweetness, this is when I stop. Surprisingly, these >three events (no sweetness in runoff, 1.010 on the hydrometer, and >full pre-boil volume achieved) all seem to occur at just about the >same time. I have read this from several different sources, that of terminating sparging at ~1.015, and was wondering if people were allowing the sparge runnings to cool to room temp or were adjusting to compensate for the heat of the sparge as the flow exits the sparger when checking for ~1.015. The temp of the sparge is quite hot compared to room temp and it seem some correction would have to be made if the reading was taken from the hot liquor. Thanks, Gerald Winters gerald at caen.engin.umich.edu Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 15:53:49 edt From: michael at frank.polymer.uakron.edu (Micheal Yandrasits) Subject: verdigris There has been a recent discussion about verdigris on the digest and a call for clarification. Here goes. Verdigris is "truely" copper acetate (sometimes called crystals of Venus*) and forms on copper in the presents of acetic acid. Verdigris is soluble in water, alcohol and ether. It is also "moderately toxic". I suspect this is not what is on everyone's cooling coils. "The green rust with which uncleaned copper vessels become coated and which is commonly termed verdigris is a copper carbonate and must not be confused with true verdigris"*. It looks to me like the green flakes are really copper carbonate. Copper carbonate, Cu2(OH)2CO3, is insoluble in water and "toxic by ingestion". The other popular possibilities, copper sulfate and copper chloride (green or blue) are soluble in water and thus unlikely (these two are "toxic"). My only problem with the copper carbonate hypothesis is that I think CO2 must be disolved in the water to react with the copper. Presumably wort boiling for an hour or more would be completely free of CO2. Anyone else have a sugestion? Could it form while cleaning with tap water? Should copper be cleaned with boiled water? My info says copper carbonate is soluble in acids, perhaps cleaning with an acid may work. How hard is it to dry the inside of a cooling coil? It might be a good idea to make sure there is no standing water left to react with the copper. Just a few thoughts. *Most of the above was taken from "The Condensed Chemical Dictionary" 3rd Edition Revised by Gessner G. Hawley, New York, Van Nostrand Reinhold Co. 1981 Mike Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 15:55:50 CDT From: pmiller at mmm.com Subject: Infections from tap water? Greetings all! I've got a question that was prompted by something that was originally posted on rec.crafts.brewing... In response to a question whether or not to boil all tap water that contacts your brew slk6p at cc.usu.edu wrote: > Tap water (at least most taps) contain VERY few bacteria or fungi. You > could hardly even find one at high magnification. Is the above statement true? and here's why I ask: I'm a novice brewer with about 7 extract batches under my belt (or 'down the hatch', I should say :-) I didn't really know what I was doing at first (like I'm an expert now...), and so some flaws in my first beers escaped me in the beginning. Having had the summer to sit back and think about things, I realize that all my beers had the same funny, barely noticeable after-taste (astringent and bitter, but not like hop bitterness). All my batches were cloudy and one batch that I liked so much that I set some aside to savor over the summer developed into The Gusher Bottles From Hell*. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that I had an infection problem. I changed a lot of things going from batch 1 to 7 including: switching from a plastic fermenter to a glass primary and secondary, started using a bottling wand, going to the blow off method, the addition of a wort chiller, switching from b-brite to bleach, switching from dry to liquid yeast, dry hopping... Well, you get the picture. Basically, if I saw it discussed on this digest twice, then I tried it at home ;-) The things that I kept the _same_ were 1) I rinsed all my equipment with tap water after sanitizing and 2) I added 2 gallons of grocery store fill-it-yourself distilled water to my 3 gallons of wort after the boil. I figured that it's one or both of these things that's causing the infection. This fall I plan to buy a cajun cooker and nuke all 5 gallons of the wort. I was _also_ planning to switch to iodophor and nix the tap water rinse. So the question is: Has anybody else ever experienced infection problems due to a tap water rinse or am I barking up the wrong tree and should I concentrate on other infection sources? Phil Miller (pmiller at 3m.com) * Lest you think I have a cast-iron tongue, the after-taste was subtle and well hidden in 'heavier' beers like my brown ale and raspberry stout. Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 11:30 CDT From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) Subject: MASHOUT v.s. SPARGING To: Homebrew Digest Fm: Jack Schmidling >From: thomasf at deschutes.ico.tek.com (Thomas D. Feller) >Subject: Chiller and Sparging >What is the difference between mash-out and sparging. I understood that if you mash out at 170 deg.F you raised the temp of the mash to 170 deg.F and then keep it at this temp for some time. With sparging you let the mash water drain out as you add sparge water, trying to keep the water level above the grian bed. I think the confusion here results from the fact that there are two basic mashing techniques used by hombrewers. In my opinion, the preferred method is "kettle mashing". In this process, the water is mixed with the grain and brought up to various temperatures through the application of heat from the stove. This allows not only control of the temperature profile but also provides the ability to experiment with different profiles and "steps". One such step is the "mashout", wherein the temperature is raised to 175F and held for some period of time. The usefulness of mashout is subject to debate and I leave that for the chemists. It is my opinion, however, that one major advantage is that it greatly reduces the risk of "set-mash" and provides a natural transition to sparge temp with minimal heat loss. None of this has anything to do with sparging, yet. If the kettle is equipped with a spigot and some sort of strainer or false bottom, sparging is only a matter of opening the spigot and adding hot water as the level drops. The other, and probably more popular method among homebrewers, is the (for lack of a better term) plastic bucket system. I really don't know what this is called but have seen numerous references to zapp and would like someone else to help here. I have never used this system but understand it to be adding hot water to grain in a bucket and after a prescribed period of time, it is transferred to another bucket with a false bottom or grain bag and hot water is run through this for sparging. Some calculation and planning must be done to assure that the mash arrives at the right tempereature when the water and grain are mixed and substantial insulation is required to maintian the temperature through the process. Little can be done to adjust it once underway. >I believe I am using a single step mash at 150 deg.F with a 170 deg.F sparge I won't be using a protein rest or a mash-out. Did I discribe this right? Pretty much but you can now see the problem. As you add 170F water to a large voulme of mash at 150F, the actual temp will be closer to the latter. One can argue about the significance of this but again, the colder the mash, the more likely is a "set mash". >How could it take 2 hr to run water sparge water through your grain bed unless the sparge was stuck (set mash?). In most cases, it is by choice. The ghurus claim that the longer it takes, the better the extract efficiency. This is another debatable point but I suspect that in some systems, such as the grain bag approach, there is no way to rush the job. In the kettle, it will run off as fast as it can get through the spigot. I have to adjust the spigot to get the appropriate flow rate. I also sparge with boiling water to assure that the temperature remains in an acceptable range. Other than the publicity from a very popular book for the bucket approach, it is hard to understand why so many brewers have opted away from kettle mashing. You need a kettle anyway and in this simple and (in my opinion) superior approach, the transition from extract to all-grain becomes learning the process instead of collecting a bunch of equipment. js Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 12:08:49 PDT From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET (Larry Barello) Subject: Re: Sparging In HBD #941 Al writes >... >You're right about the difference between mash-out and sparging. There are >two reasons for mash-out that I can think of: 1) stopping conversion ... This is the conventional wisdom. There is no way a 10 min mash out at 170f is gonna stop conversion. I can name at least two local breweries that MASH at 160-162f! (Thomas Kemper and Hales) and I suspect a lot more around the PNW do as well. Another 8-10f isn't going to magically kill the enzymes. >2) raising the temperature of the *grain* to 170F so the sugar flows more >easily away from the husk material... Yeah, that is the real reason! Plus I am willing to bet that any residual starch is converted *real fast* at this temperature... > >A 2-hour sparge does sound excessive, but too fast a sparge will also >lower your extraction efficiency. Just feeling contrary: I have noticed no correlation between fast sparge and poor extract efficiency. There is a definite correlation between crummy crush and poor efficiency. I use a false bottom and sparge as fast as I can (my record is 15 min/6.5 gal) and I routinely get .034/lb/gal (after the boil) for a typical pale ale. The sparge rate really depends upon how much flour I get in my crush; the grain crushed with a corona takes 30-50min to sparge, the grain crushed with a proper roller mill takes 15-30 min to sparge. Cheers! - -- Larry Barello uunet!polstra!larryba Return to table of contents
Date: Wed, 5 Aug 92 20:46:57 -0600 From: John Adams <j_adams at hpfcjca.sde.hp.com> Subject: Brewpubs in Denver? > I am looking for brewpubs in the Denver, Boulder, Golden area. Any > > suggestions or recommendations would be greatly appreciated. > > Thank you Here's a list of the brewpubs and micro's in the Denver, Boulder, and the Fort Collins area: Brewpubs Champion Brewing Company 15th and Larimer Denver Rock Bottom Brewery 1001 16th Street Denver Wynkoop Brewing Company 1634 18th Street Denver Oasis Brewery 1095 Canyon Boulder The Walnut Brewing Company 1123 Walnut Boulder Wilderness Pub 2880 Wilderness Place Boulder CooperSmith's Pub and Brewing #5 Old Town Square Fort Collins Micro Breweries H.C. Berger Brewing 1900 E. Lincoln Fort Collins New Belgium Brewing Company 129 Frey Avenue Fort Collins Odell Brewing Company 119 Lincoln Avenue Fort Collins John Adams Return to table of contents
Date: Thu, 6 Aug 92 13:33:40 EST From: Brett Shorten <s05bas at cc.uow.edu.au> Subject: British v Other pale malted grains I was interested in a recent thread which never quite seemed to get off the ground. It concerned differences in colour between beers made with British and US malts. Being an Australian, I am assuming that our pale malts would be very similar to those in the US, given the similarity of mainstream beer styles. At any rate, I recently made a batch of "Fullers London Pride", following Dave Line's recipe. Although the beer is still very young, I have tried one bottle and found it to be disappointing colourwise, being significantly lighter than the real thing (I was in London recently, and saw many pints of the real thing!). I am convinced that poor extraction is not the reason, as my OG was spot on. So, whilst communicating with an English HBD afficionado (Hi Andy!), I asked him about this. It turned out that he has usedthe same recipe and got a beer just as dark, or a little darker, than the real thing. This suggests to me that differences in the colour of the malts is the most likely explanation. I wondered if bumping upthe amount of crystal used would help to achieve he desired result, but Andy felt that this may adversely (in terms of replicating the type of beer targeted) affect the flavour. He was kind enough to send me a section from a British book of recipes for traditional high gravity ales dealing with home roasting of pale malts to achieve darker colourings etc. So what does the HBD think? My contention is that Australian (and US, as far as I can tell) pale malted grains are not suitable for making authentic British ales, unless they can be slightly darkened somehow. I worry, though, what this may do to their ability to supply fermentable sugars. Alternatively, I wonder whether some judicious blend of, for example, pale and Munich malts may achieve the desired result. Looking forward to some interesting discussions Brett Shorten University of Wollongong Australia s05bas at wampyr.cc.uow.edu.au Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #942, 08/06/92