FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  How to make non-alcoholic brew? (Steve Anthony)
  Re: Micah got the shaft (jim busch)
  Dormant yeast ... ("C. Lyons")
  Flatulence (BOB JONES)
  Red Hook ESB (Bob Fozard)
  labels (Mr. Weather)
  RE: Steam beer (Roy Styan)
  demerara sugar-different? (eurquhar)
  Beer and Health (George J Fix)
  Re: alts (Rick Larson)
  Dry Yeast: Different for each kit type from same maker? (Mike Mahler)
  Re: Sneezing in my beer (korz)
  Re: Best of Show (Chuck Cox)
  Bad smelling cider (KRUSE_NEIL)
  sake recipe (Michael Galloway)
  Request for Dry Honey Beer Recipe (Bruce T. Hill)
  KUDOS (Jack Schmidling)
  sluggish carbonation (Brian Bliss)
  Advanced Tapping and fluid dynamics (Aaron Birenboim)
  KUDOS, Hops, G FIX (Jack Schmidling)
  Belgian Malts (Thomas D. Feller)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 09:09:23 EDT
From: Steve Anthony <steveo at Think.COM>
Subject: How to make non-alcoholic brew?

My wife has needs to take a perscription medicine, and that medicine
preludes any alcoholic beverages. This includes her favorite, my own
porter. So instead of us sitting around, me with an IPA and her with a
Porter, I'm sitting there with the IPA and a case of guilt, and she's got a
glass of water and a case of frustration! So I began to wonder what might
be involved in making a no alcohol brew.

My thought was that I'd have to make the beer as usual, and then take all
5gal of the fermented product and remove the alcohol, by heating to maybe
165F to boil to alcohol off, yet not boil the beer. This, I surmize would
get rid of the alcohol, but also kill off the yeast that one would use for
carbonation. So, then some form of artificial carbonation would be
required. Maybe something like they do for soda. Which implies that some
kegging system would be needed. This seems expensive.

Thus, my question. Is there any other way? Has anyone experimented with any
kind of process to remove alcohol from the beer yet still render it
drinkable? 

Any and all thoughts will be appreciated!

Steveo

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 10:32:14 EDT
From: jim busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Micah got the shaft

I have followed the AHA judging of the mead BOS thread
with interest.  It just shows how bad the AHA judging 
can be at times.  From the circumstances clearly stated
in this forum, Micah got screwed out of a first place
position in the second round.  The rejudging indicates
a lack of credibility in the AHA process.  If they
dont have confidence in the judges of the earlier
rounds, they have no buisness doing the judging.  What
ever happened to "the decision of the judges is final"?

This lack of credibility became apparent to me after a
3 week swing through California, Oregon, Washington 
and Colorado immeadiately prior to last years GABF.
I maintain a log book of all my beer travels, and carefully
rate all beers based on style on a 5.0 max scale.  Very
few beers get a 5.0, and 4.0+ is a great beer in my 
system.  When I heard the announcements of winners 
at the second day of last years GABF, I checked my notes
to compare with my memory of some beers.  Beers that were
rated quite poorly at the brewery suddenly emerge as silver
and gold winners.  Either some breweries are pulling a 
fast one and brewing "special" beers for the fest (so 
they too can be the best beer in america) or the AHA has
serious judging problems.  I suspect both are contributing
factors.  

That said, I just took the BJCP exam, so maybe I can be
part of problem soon :-)  Anyway, Micah got shafted, and
at least this forum has heard the news that I am sure 
will not be disclosed in print in Zymurgy.

Jim Busch



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 09:40 EDT
From: "C. Lyons" <LYONS at adc2.adc.ray.com>
Subject: Dormant yeast ...


>>> - When my fermentation is nearing completion, does the yeast go into a
>>> dormant  state or just die?

>>They go dormant.  If you wait too long before priming you won't get
>>carbonation, because once the yeast go dormant, they need things that
>>finished beer lacks in order to wake back up.  Carbonation is done by
>>the yeasties that haven't gone dormant yet at bottling time; there are
>>still a bunch of them in suspension even when the beer looks clear.

>I'm wondering if the solution to my long standing problem lies in James's
>response.  The problem I have is that it takes an exceptionally long time
>for my beers to reach a proper carbonation level.  No way do my beers
>become properly carbonated after a month or so.  I would say my beers need
>about four months or so.  Sure, I use 3/4 cup corn sugar as many do.  And,
>yes, I have tried different sources for the sugar in case of a bad batch or
>something.  But my results have been uniform, regardless.  What strikes me
>in contrast is something I recall reading in Papazian's TCJoHB.  I believe
>he says that because of his busy schedule, many times he does not bottle
>until after 4-6 weeks settling time in the secondary.  Indeed, I usually
>wait about this long.  At this point fermentation has nearly ceased (1 bubble
>> 3 min.).  It seems to me that much of the yeast going dormant is a possible
>explanation for my problem.  I should also mention that I use Wyeast liquid
>cultures and brew both lagers and ales.
>  So my question is, can someone provide a good rule of thumb as to when
>bottling should occur?  And is my presumption correct that letting the
>beer sit too long in the secondary may cause sluggish carbonation later on.

   I have also noticed that long secondary times result in long 
bottle aging to acheive carbonation.  Perhaps one answer would be 
to add yeast at bottling.  I suspect lager yeast would be best 
for this, but I'm not sure.  I'm also not sure how much yeast 
would be needed for a 5 gallon batch primed with 3/4 cup corn 
sugar.  On my last batch I tried 1 teaspoon (twice the amount I 
use for rootbeer) of dry yeast.  That seemed to cure the problem.  
Any others adding yeast at bottling?  If so, what kind and how much?

                                   ... Christopher Lyons

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 07:54 PDT
From: BOB JONES <BJONES at NOVAX.llnl.gov>
Subject: Flatulence

OK, since we're all airing (pun intended) our personal problems here on
headaches and sneezing, how bout we vent are opinions on homebrew
generated flatulence. I have noticed some people (not me of course) have a big
problem (read nuclear farts) after homebrew club meetings. I always tell these
people that this is caused by infected brews. Is it really? Could it be the
yeast metabolizing some other sugars hanging around in their stomach?

Any ideas out there or is this just a local problem. Feel free to AIR your
ideas here on the digest, NOT in my office.

Bob Jones



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 9:19:47 PDT
From: rfozard at sword.eng.pyramid.com (Bob Fozard)
Subject: Red Hook ESB

I picked up a recipe profile sheet from Brian at Fermentation Frenzy
yesterday that lists all of Red Hook's and Sam Adams' brews.  The
one I'm particularly interested in is Red Hook ESB.  This beer has
the tastiest hop character I know of.  The sheet lists ESB as using
Willamette and Tettnang.  Not having my senses properly and fully
calibrated for hop-guessing yet, I cannot confirm this.  Can any
of you?

p.s.  Brian wasn't sure either, he didn't prepare this sheet.

- -- 
rfozard at pyramid.com

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Date:    Wed, 30 Sep 1992 11:19:45 -0500 (CDT)
From: RKB6116 at SIGMA.TAMU.EDU (Mr. Weather)
Subject: labels

This may be old news, but..

I have been using rubber cement for my homebrew labels.  I usually
go through 2 "regular" sized bottles of the stuff for about 40 bottles
of homebrew, but they stay on until you want them off.  When you
finally pull them off, they are easily removed without leaving anything
behind.  The labels are plain white paper used in xerox machines.

Mr. Weather <> aka Ken Blair <> rkb6116 at zeus.tamu.edu <> Aggieland USA

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 09:42:25 PDT
From: rstya at map.mda.ca (Roy Styan)
Subject: RE: Steam beer


Jake Zaagman asks:

> 1 - Is there a normal ferment temp for steam beer?
> 2 - Or is there something that just covers up the off flavors?

I have brewed many batches of steam beer, mostly because I don't have
refrigeration although I do enjoy the style.  My most successful batches
have been fermented at 15C (umm... 58F?).  During the summer, I was fermenting
at 20C (70F?) and I did indeed get off flavors.  Perfume.  Quite obnoxious,
although aging seems to be curing the problem somewhat.  I have noticed that
brewing with even a little crystal helps mask the problem (I don't know why,
I just seems to work for me).  The worst batch was brewed with Wyeast #20??
(Danish) but I haven't really done enough experimentation to blame the yeast
yet.

Roy

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 09:59:07 -0800
From: eurquhar at sfu.ca
Subject: demerara sugar-different?

        In a word, yes.  Demerara sugar is a special form of sugar which is
very dark brown and almost sticky.  It has a strong, caramelly almost
fruity smell and flavour to match.  Roger's Sugar here in Vancouver, B.C.
makes this grade and it is the basically cleaned raw sugar which has been
re-crystallized.  They use the same process as Tate and Lyle in Britain use
to make Demerara.
        Nothing is removed except plant fibres, dust, etc. and the natural
plant acids which would invert or cause the sucrose to breakdown into it's
component parts glucose and fructose.  No molasses is extracted but instead
is returned to the sugar before crystallization.
        The raw sugar often called 'turbinado or raw sugar"
produced/available  in the States is a very pale imitation of the real
thing.
        However, REAL ENGLISH DEMERARA IS AVAILABLE IN THE USA from the
Cellar in Seattle.  Never tasted this one but likely its good.  
The Cellar, P.O. Box 33525, 14411 Greenwood Ave. N., Seattle, Washington
98133 telephone #206-365-7660.
                      Eric Urquhart (eurquhar at sfu.ca) 
                      Centre for Pest Management, Dept. of Biological
Sciences
                      Simon Fraser University, Burnaby , B.C. Canada


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 11:49:21 CDT
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Beer and Health

Beer is a natural organic food, which consumed in moderation is
health positive. There have been numerous independent studies that
have clearly shown that everything else being equal, beer drinkers
enjoy better health than nondrinkers. In fact, many of these studies
have shown that regular beer drinkers tend to be in better health
than wine drinkers or those who consume spirits. The key of course
is moderation. Studies have shown that health benefits increase
with beer consumption, but only up to a point. After that it
decreases and rapidly goes negative.

The major ketone in beer is diacetyl. It has a flavor threshold of
 .10-.15 mg/l. In normal beer it will be present at 1/2 to 1/3 this
level. Margarine, for example, contains 40-50 times as much. I personally
have a reaction when I taste beer whose diacetyl level is above
threshold. There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, however, that
this reaction is emotional/psychological and not physiological.
Everytime I pick it up in my beer, I know I have screwed up!

The major aldehyde in beer is acetaldehyde. There are other aldehydes
present. They are at such low levels in normal beers that they can be
ignored for health purposes. (Beer flavors are a different issue.)
Acetaldehyde is theoretically toxic, however for this to be a practical
issue we are talking about consumption levels approaching 25-30 liters
per day for decades. Interestingly, the US beer with the highest
acetaldehyde level is Bud. It is typically present at 10 mg/l,
which is close to its flavor threshold. This has been the case
throughout this century, and results from AB's "chip fermentation".
It is also responsible for the subtle apple-like tones found in Bud.
This is not IMHO the ideal brew in so far as beer flavors are concerned.
Yet, think about the number of gallons of this beer that have been brewed
and consumed over the years. Compare health statistics of regular
Bud drinkers with those who engage in a known health hazard,i.e.,
cigarette smoking. I think the proper conclusion is that we can
forget about the aldehyde content of beer as being a health risk.


The major health issue centers around the alcohol content of beer.
Because beer, unlike wine or spirits, is made with a relatively
low gravity fermentation, it generally should have much lower levels
of fusel alcohols than other libations. These long chained "higher
alcohols" are indeed toxic and quite intoxicating. They make
"moonshine" the health hazard it actually is, and to a much lesser extent,
the same can be said for brandy. Much has been said on HBD about the negative
effects of the fusel oils, and there has been some really good advise about
how to keep their levels low. I agree with all of this and its relevance
to beer flavors. However, from the point of view of health related
issues, it is important to keep in mind that even with defective beers
the fusel alcohol level will typically be a good factor of 50 below that found 
for example in brandy.

The issue associated with ethanol is more complicated. I think the data
out there shows that it is health positive at low levels, however there
is absolutely no doubt that it will have deleterious effects with high
levels of consumption. As an enthusiastic brewer I do not warm up to 
moderation easily. However, the more one looks at the data the more
attractive this posture becomes.


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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 11:45:00 -0500
From: hpfcla.fc.hp.com!melkor!rick (Rick Larson)
Subject: Re: alts


Tony Babinec writes a great post on Alts and he implies the Alaskan
Amber is an Alt.  I have one bottle conditioned Amber left in the
frig and I woundered if the yeast was worth culturing to make an Alt.

Does anyone know what type of yeast is used in the Amber?

Is it the same for their Pale Ale and therefore just their brewing
Ale yeast?

I really enjoy the malty Amber and if anyone has the opportunity
they should try it.  It might be available in Seattle for all you
PNW brewers.  My brother lives in Alaska and is required to bring
some when he visits.



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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 13:39:32 EDT
From: mm at workgroup.com (Mike Mahler)
Subject: Dry Yeast: Different for each kit type from same maker?

	
	Does anyone know for sure if the ale kits from one manufacturer
	all have the same yeast in those little packets?  For example,
	I use Ironmaster alot and was wondering if their Porter kit
	has a different yeast than their Bitter or Stout kits?  What
	about other brands like Coopers?

	Michael

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 13:38 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Sneezing in my beer

AjD says some beers make him sneeze.  I don't know how much this
may have to do with this ailment, but perhaps it is a mold allergy?
I know of several people who get sneezing fits from airbourne molds
and one (the teacher of the training session I'm in right now --
the one foolish enough to give me a terminal during class) who says
he can't dring beer because he's allergic to molds.  I would imagine
that various beers would have varying amounts of mold in them, which
would explain the inconsistent reactions to various brands.
Al.

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 12:08:12 EDT
From: chuck at synchro.com (Chuck Cox)
Subject: Re: Best of Show

Thanks for all the messages about the validity of BOS judging.  Here is
a summary of the responses.  Not all responses were clearly pro or con,
but I did my best to try to understand the various viewpoints.  I should
add a disclaimer that I am very strongly in favor of BOS. 

I realize this sample set is too small to be statistically valid,
but the results seem reasonable to me.

Total responses:    16 (7 judges, 9 competitors)

For BOS:             9 (3 judges, 6 competitors)
Against:             4 (3 judges, 1 competitor)
Don't Care:          3 (1 judge,  2 competitors)

My interpretation:
Judges are divided about BOS, but competitors want it.

All competitors stated that they were aware of the subjective nature
of the judging.  Several mentioned the analogy of dog show BOS.

An interesting point: one competitor said he didn't like sending an
extra bottle for BOS judging.  I sympathize with this.  I don't enter
many competitions anymore because I don't want to waste 3 bottles of
excellent beer just to find out if someone else thinks it's good too.  I
would like to suggest a compromise: make the BOS bottle optional.  If
the first-place beer in a category didn't include a BOS bottle, that
category won't be in BOS.  I think most brewers are fairly realistic
about their chances of a win, so let them decide whether they want to
sacrifice an extra bottle on the chance that they take first.  I don't
think this would be too much of a burden on organizers.  Opinions?

My opinions:
 - If the competitors want BOS, they should get it.
 - The BOS bottle should be optional.
 - If certain judges are uncomfortable judging BOS, 
  they should let judges who are comfortable with BOS do it.
 - Master judges should be competent, informative, and entertaining
  BOS judges.

I really enjoy judging BOS.  I think one of the great benefits of being
a Master judge is that I get asked to judge BOS quite often.  I would be
very disappointed if BOS started disappearing from competitions. 

- -- 
Chuck Cox <chuck at synchro.com>
In de hemel is geen bier, daarom drinken wij het hier.

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Date: 30 Sep 92 09:23:00 -0700
From: KRUSE_NEIL at Tandem.COM
Subject: Bad smelling cider

A few days ago I made a gallon of hard cider.  However, when I
smelled in the bottle is smelled like rotten eggs.  What would
cause this to happen?

Neil    (kruse_neil at tandem.com)

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1992 15:28:41 -0400
From: mgx at solid.ssd.ornl.gov (Michael Galloway)
Subject: sake recipe


Could someone please post a true sake recipe?  I don't recall seeing one 
posted in the recent past and there is not one in Cats Meow II either.
Thanks!
Michael D. Galloway	mgx at solid.ssd.ornl.gov
			v-(615)574-5785	
			f-(615)574-4143
			Living in the WasteLand (of Beer, that is)

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 14:09:57 PDT
From: bruceh at equalizer.cray.com (Bruce T. Hill)
Subject: Request for Dry Honey Beer Recipe


I have a recipe request:

Does anyone have an all-grain recipe that emulates Oregon Brewing's
Dry Honey Beer?  Guesses as well as suggestions are welcome!
This stuff is heavenly and I would like to make my own.

Thanks,

Bruce T. Hill  at  Cray Research Superservers, Inc., San Diego, CA, USA
Email: bruceh at cray.com  Phone: (619) 625-3746  FAX: (619) 625-0641

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Date: Mon, 28 Sep 92 12:28 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: KUDOS

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 
 The latest edition of Zymurgy has a good article by Ray Daniels on targeting 
 gravity.  What rivitted my attention was an elegantly simple little equation 
 that I used on my very next batch.  As the majority of hombrewers probably do 
 not subcribe to the magazine, I thought I would pass it on to this forum 
 along with my thanks to Ray for what, like all good ideas, now seems so 
 obvious.
 
 The problem is to determine the gravity of a wort after boiling or dillution, 
 based on its present gravity.
 
 The trick is to determine the "total gravity" which can then be divided by 
 any volume to predict the final gravity.  This is done simply by multiplying 
 the present gravity by the present volume then dividing the product by the 
 anticipated volume.
 
 For example:  
 
 10 gals of sweet wort have a gravity of 1.030  (30) prior to boiling and we 
 want to boil this to a volume of 7 gals.
 
    30 X 10  =  300  total gravity
 
    300 / 7  =   48 (1.048)  gravity after boiling
 
 It works the same way for adding water.
 
 Maybe I just read the wrong books and Ray just plagarized this but it made 
 wading through the magazine worth the effort.  Thanks Ray.
 
 
 
 
js

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 14:08:45 CDT
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: sluggish carbonation

>  So my question is, can someone provide a good rule of thumb as to when
>bottling should occur?  And is my presumption correct that letting the
>beer sit too long in the secondary may cause sluggish carbonation later on.

The problem is especially common in high alcohol beers, and has
an easy solution:  just add more yeast at bottling time.  Make sure
you use the same type of yeast that you used for the fermentation.
If you use a more attenuative strain, the beer can become overcarbonated.

bb

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 16:09:46 MDT
From: abirenbo at rigel.cel.scg.hac.com (Aaron Birenboim)
Subject: Advanced Tapping and fluid dynamics


   I have been having a problem with getting foam and flat
beer from by kegging system.  I have heard about restauraunts
keeping their beverages under pressure (15-20 lbs) and
using restricted and/or long lines to drop this pressure
to 1/2 pound at the nozzle.

   I never took any fluid dynamics....  so  where might i get
information as to how to dispense my beer properly at 5000 ft.
elevation.  I hear the general solution is a restrictor on the
beverage line, and increased dispensing pressure.  I do not want
to be doing a lot of modifications to myu built in refrigerator
system.  i want this right the first time.  Remember that the rule
of thumb i was told to follow is that the pressure at the tip of the
nozzle should have dropped to a differential of 0.5 psi.  I guess that
this pressure drop would be due to an aspiration effect in flowing beer...
so might this not even work unless i can get a nozzle with smaller
tubing???  ya know.... as the fluid is in a narrow cross-section
the pressure changes (drops?), but if the cross section gets larger...
will the pressure not rise again as flow velocity decreases?

   anyhoooo.....  i'd really like to get my fridge going
happily.  I have invested too much in it for foamy beer.

              aaron

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 11:30 CDT
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: KUDOS, Hops, G FIX

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 I received no confirmation of this posting and have not seen it in the Digest 
 so I am resending it with additions at the end.
 
 ...........
 
 The latest edition of Zymurgy has a good article by Ray Daniels on targeting 
 gravity.  What rivitted my attention was an elegantly simple little equation 
 that I used on my very next batch.  As the majority of hombrewers probably do 
 not subcribe to the magazine, I thought I would pass it on to this forum 
 along with my thanks to Ray for what, like all good ideas, now seems so 
 obvious.
 
 The problem is to determine the gravity of a wort after boiling or dillution, 
 based on its present gravity.
 
 The trick is to determine the "total gravity" which can then be divided by 
 any volume to predict the final gravity.  This is done simply by multiplying 
 the present gravity by the present volume then dividing the product by the 
 anticipated volume.
 
 For example:  
 
 10 gals of sweet wort have a gravity of 1.030  (30) prior to boiling and we 
 want to boil this to a volume of 7 gals.
 
    30 X 10  =  300  total gravity
 
    300 / 7  =   48 (1.048)  gravity after boiling
 
 It works the same way for adding water.
 
 Maybe I just read the wrong books and Ray just plagarized this but it made 
 wading through the magazine worth the effort.  Thanks Ray.
 
 ...............
 
 Last weekend's batch was the first to use my homegrown hops and the results 
 are less that exciting.
 
 I harvested 1.5 dry oz of Chinook and this just happens to be what I normally 
 use for a 7 gal batch.  I was very disappointed not to smell the usual 
 powerful hops aroma within seconds after dumping it into the boil.  The aroma 
 slowly built up but never approached that which I get from pellets.
 
 The wort seemed to have the proper amount of bitterness but there was just 
 something totally unnerving in not having the smell permeate the area for the 
 two hour boil.
 
 The taste at this point (about to move to secondary) is confusing to say the 
 least.  I will reserve final judgement till it is kegged.
 
 ..............
 
 My most recent batch of NA was equal parts de-alcoholized beer and water.  It 
 just keeps getting better.  The secret of NA is out.
 
 .............
 
 To:  George Fix.....  I give up on email.  Did you get my beer?  What are 
 your comments?  Feel free to post them publicly, my ego is bulletproof.
 
 js
 
 
 
 
 
 
 

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Date: Wed, 30 Sep 92 15:29:44 PDT
From: thomasf at deschutes.ico.tek.com (Thomas D. Feller)
Subject: Belgian Malts

I have question about Belgian malts.

Where is the best place to get them?

I talked with Tim Norris(very nice to talk with) about ordering some
his prices and selection are great but the shipping hurts. At
$ 0.95 to $1.30 per lbs it cost more to ship the grain than buy it.
When I work out the number at $0.95/lbs shipping I get a cost of
about $ 1.65 lbs. Now for high quaity grain I don't really have a
problem with this but if I could find a source closer to Portland,
Oregon or if I could find a cheaper way of shipping 170 lbs of grain
it would be nice. 

Does anyone out there have any ideas on this?

Are there any other Portland brewers who want get together on 
an order?

Thanks to Tony Babinec for his post on Alt beers, interesting stuff.
On Widmer Alt, it IS a very good beer. Perhaps my favorite Widmer
brew but I have heard they no longer brew this due to low demand
(I may be wrong on this but I have not seen it for a long time).
I am not sure about it being over hopped it did not seem very hoppy
but being a west coast hophead I am not a unbaised judge.


Thanks all,

Tom Feller 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #981, 10/01/92