From alhiem at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 13:14:27 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:14:27 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Yogurt Problem
In-Reply-To: <003a01c74156$05a8f420$6601a8c0@aoldsl.net>
References: <003a01c74156$05a8f420$6601a8c0@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702021014u3d6b5c42pc2bc600df2d14950@mail.gmail.com>

Make sure the container has a label like : Live and Active Culture.
Otherwise you have dead yogurt which will not work.

albert

On 1/26/07, kathy <kathy at badgerpressinc.com> wrote:
>
>  Hello,
>
> I've tried twice to make yogurt from Greek yogurt - Fage is the brand.  It
> never seems to set.  I'm making it the same way I always do with Danon or
> the like.
>
> Any ideas?  Thanks.
>
> Kathy Dederich
>
> Badger Press, Inc.
> 1840 Industrial Dr., #100
> Libertyville, IL  60048
>
> kathy at badgerpressinc.com
> www.badgerpressinc.com
>
> 847 996.1190
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
>
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From derekbradford at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 08:24:16 2007
From: derekbradford at gmail.com (Derek Bradford)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:24:16 +0900
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
Message-ID: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I've been lurking for a long time, but this is my first post.  It's
long, and for that I apologize.  I want to be specific.  In a
nutshell, I can't get a clean break; my milk won't coagulate.  I don't
know if I should be adding calcium chloride, or if I'm just doing
something else wrong entirely.  My recipes have all come from
Fankhauser's pages.

I've been making yogurt for a long time with excellent results.
My yogurt is 3.5%, made with store-bought homogenized milk, and is
very, very thick, and as smooth as it could ever be.  I make big
batches every week and they all turn out just fine.  I make labneh
with nearly every batch, and it's equally wonderful.

I've tried making two cheeses; once, feta, and it failed to produce a
feta, but did make a cream-type soft cheese that I ate for
weeks, and the second was Fankhauser's basic pound of cheese from a
gallon of milk recipe.

I have utterly failed to achieve a clean break.  I've used the freshest
milk available (it hit the shelf the day before I used it, and it's
the same milk I use for yogurt all the time.

I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.  I
used the mesophylic starter from the Grape and Granary
(http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,9888.htm).  I used 1/8tsp.
(Side note: when I made feta I used yogurt as a starter, but I believe
my milk had overacidified.  I thought using the powdered starter might
provide for a more stable experiment this time.  Bad science, changing
too many variables...I know...).  The next morning I slowly heated it to
30C, and then added my rennet.  I also use the rennet from the same
site (http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,10199.htm), and used about
1/8 of a tab, perhaps more.  I erred on more than less.  I mixed the
rennet thoroughly, but briefly, and let it sit, covered, for 1 hour,
completely undisturbed.  After one hour, I still had a pot of liquid
milk--no evidence of coagulation.

I have some calcium chloride, but I'm not sure when to add it, and
since I've had strong success with yogurt, I decided to wait until I
knew I needed it.  I'm not convinced it's absence is the source of my
problem, though.

A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
sediment on the bottom of the glass.  Could this be a significant
source of error?

Can you offer any advice?  I have been extremely sterile; I'm also a
beer and wine brewer, and I really can't see what my problem must be.

Thanks all for your help.

Cheers,
--Derek


From kit at kganderson.net  Fri Feb 16 11:12:18 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:12:18 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45D5D7E2.60707@kganderson.net>

I am a total newbie ... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Do you have a way to measure the pH? That would tell you if your culture 
worked. If you add citric acid or vinegar to the failed milk do you get 
a break? If you do, then the culture is the problem. If you don't, then 
the pH is too low.
Calcium chloride is added at the beginning to replace the calcium that 
was in the raw milk and is now unavailable thanks to homogenization. It 
has no effect on pH.
I use liquid rennet so miscibility and disolvability are not an issue for me
I assume you read Fankhauser's troubleshooting page?
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Fankhauser/Cheese/clean_break/Problem_getting_a_clean_break.html
So far, I have made my best cheeses from Jack Schmidling's site. 
http://schmidling.com/cheese.htm

Kit

Derek Bradford wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've been lurking for a long time, but this is my first post.  It's
> long, and for that I apologize.  I want to be specific.  In a
> nutshell, I can't get a clean break; my milk won't coagulate.  I don't
> know if I should be adding calcium chloride, or if I'm just doing
> something else wrong entirely.  My recipes have all come from
> Fankhauser's pages.



From arf at mc.net  Fri Feb 16 11:39:13 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:39:13 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>


> I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
> mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
> flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.

First of all, experimenting with ingredients when something does not 
work, is not a good idea.

Second, you did not say what kind of cheese you were trying to make but 
letting it sit over night with the starter has nothing to do with making 
a typical cheddar cheese.

> A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
> in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
> sediment on the bottom of the glass.

Use liquid rennet.


> Can you offer any advice?

Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From slaycock at discoverynet.com  Fri Feb 16 22:19:27 2007
From: slaycock at discoverynet.com (Steve Laycock)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:19:27 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
Message-ID: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>

I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
"Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
chips.  I have a dairy available to me for fresh milk and have seen several
Mexicans purchasing over 100 gallons of fresh milk to make this cheese and
supplying it to local Mexican restaurants.  I dont speak the language and
these guys were fresh out of the river with little English skills, so
getting it from them is not possible.
Thanks for helping for this novice cheese maker!
Steve




-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From knuckey4 at msn.com  Fri Feb 16 22:56:54 2007
From: knuckey4 at msn.com (TOM KNUCKEY)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:56:54 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV6E89C3D5BDD3E6D8B7CB095940@phx.gbl>

My two cents, for what it's worth - I've made exactly one batch of cheese, but it worked out great.  I followed the recipe from Ricci Carrol's book exactly, except that I used the powdered nonfat milk plus whipping cream that Schmidling recommends on his website.  Ricci Carrol's book has a pretty extensive discussion about milk, but Jack's website provided me a cheese milk option that I can pick up at Safeway...

I have no idea how my cheese will taste since I need to age it for six months, but it looked great.  Good luck to you.

http://schmidling.com/milk.htm<http://schmidling.com/milk.htm>




- Original Message ----- 
  From: Derek Bradford<mailto:derekbradford at gmail.com> 
  To: The Cheese Makers' Digest<mailto:cheese at hbd.org> 
  Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:24 AM
  Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post


  Hi All,

  I've been lurking for a long time, but this is my first post.  It's
  long, and for that I apologize.  I want to be specific.  In a
  nutshell, I can't get a clean break; my milk won't coagulate.  I don't
  know if I should be adding calcium chloride, or if I'm just doing
  something else wrong entirely.  My recipes have all come from
  Fankhauser's pages.

  I've been making yogurt for a long time with excellent results.
  My yogurt is 3.5%, made with store-bought homogenized milk, and is
  very, very thick, and as smooth as it could ever be.  I make big
  batches every week and they all turn out just fine.  I make labneh
  with nearly every batch, and it's equally wonderful.

  I've tried making two cheeses; once, feta, and it failed to produce a
  feta, but did make a cream-type soft cheese that I ate for
  weeks, and the second was Fankhauser's basic pound of cheese from a
  gallon of milk recipe.

  I have utterly failed to achieve a clean break.  I've used the freshest
  milk available (it hit the shelf the day before I used it, and it's
  the same milk I use for yogurt all the time.

  I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
  mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
  flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.  I
  used the mesophylic starter from the Grape and Granary
  (http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,9888.htm<http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,9888.htm>).  I used 1/8tsp.
  (Side note: when I made feta I used yogurt as a starter, but I believe
  my milk had overacidified.  I thought using the powdered starter might
  provide for a more stable experiment this time.  Bad science, changing
  too many variables...I know...).  The next morning I slowly heated it to
  30C, and then added my rennet.  I also use the rennet from the same
  site (http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,10199.htm<http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,10199.htm>), and used about
  1/8 of a tab, perhaps more.  I erred on more than less.  I mixed the
  rennet thoroughly, but briefly, and let it sit, covered, for 1 hour,
  completely undisturbed.  After one hour, I still had a pot of liquid
  milk--no evidence of coagulation.

  I have some calcium chloride, but I'm not sure when to add it, and
  since I've had strong success with yogurt, I decided to wait until I
  knew I needed it.  I'm not convinced it's absence is the source of my
  problem, though.

  A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
  in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
  sediment on the bottom of the glass.  Could this be a significant
  source of error?

  Can you offer any advice?  I have been extremely sterile; I'm also a
  beer and wine brewer, and I really can't see what my problem must be.

  Thanks all for your help.

  Cheers,
  --Derek
  _______________________________________________
  Cheese mailing list
  Cheese at hbd.org<mailto:Cheese at hbd.org>
  http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese<http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese>
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From knuckey4 at msn.com  Fri Feb 16 22:45:21 2007
From: knuckey4 at msn.com (TOM KNUCKEY)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:45:21 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV17548669ED6885D778AE7895940@phx.gbl>

Hi Jack - I received your cheese press about a week ago, and made my first batch last Saturday (cheddar.)  I have no idea how it's going to taste, but it looked great!  Just wanted to shoot you a quick note and thank you for the press - it worked like a charm.

Have a great weekend.

Tom Knuckey
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jack Schmidling<mailto:arf at mc.net> 
  To: The Cheese Makers' Digest<mailto:cheese at hbd.org> 
  Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post



  > I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
  > mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
  > flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.

  First of all, experimenting with ingredients when something does not 
  work, is not a good idea.

  Second, you did not say what kind of cheese you were trying to make but 
  letting it sit over night with the starter has nothing to do with making 
  a typical cheddar cheese.

  > A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
  > in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
  > sediment on the bottom of the glass.

  Use liquid rennet.


  > Can you offer any advice?

  Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
  Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.

  js

  -- 
  PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm<http://schmidling.com/pow.htm>
  Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com<http://schmidling.com/>

  _______________________________________________
  Cheese mailing list
  Cheese at hbd.org<mailto:Cheese at hbd.org>
  http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese<http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese>
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From kit at kganderson.net  Sat Feb 17 09:35:36 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:35:36 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
In-Reply-To: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
References: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <45D712B8.1040504@kganderson.net>

You may be referring to either queso blanco 
http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/quesoblanco.htm or queso fresco 
http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/quesofresco.htm
Here is a great site about Mexican cheeses. 
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/recipes/puebla/kgqueso1.html
Kit

Steve Laycock wrote:
> I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
> "Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
> chips.  I have a dairy available to me for fresh milk and have seen several
> Mexicans purchasing over 100 gallons of fresh milk to make this cheese and
> supplying it to local Mexican restaurants.  I dont speak the language and
> these guys were fresh out of the river with little English skills, so
> getting it from them is not possible.
> Thanks for helping for this novice cheese maker!
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>   



From alhiem at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 10:11:22 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:11:22 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
In-Reply-To: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
References: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702170711s5cb56570qe79b995f5d06057f@mail.gmail.com>

Im not mexican, but here in puerto rico, we do a cheese called "queso de
hoja" (leaf cheese becase is wrapped in the leaves of some plant, sorry cant
remember the one at the moment) and, as far as i know, is exactly as the
"traditional" mexican "queso fresco" (fresh cheese).  This is just warmed up
milk,  vinegar or the juice of one green lemon, and salt.  Then, as you
would with a hard to be cultured cheese, you press it.  Save some of the whey
to make a brine solution.  After the curds are pressed to the desired
consistency (the harder you press it, the better for frying), dump it in the
brine.  It will keep for about a week or two.  You can go to
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Cheese/Panir.html and use that recipe
as the base, then press the cheese as i mentioned.

The other kind of mexican cheese is something like a mozzarella cheese, a
string cheese, but a little harder; sadly i dont know how to make that one.

Hope this helps.

On 2/16/07, Steve Laycock <slaycock at discoverynet.com> wrote:
>
> I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
> "Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
> chips.  I have a dairy available to me for fresh milk and have seen
> several
> Mexicans purchasing over 100 gallons of fresh milk to make this cheese and
> supplying it to local Mexican restaurants.  I dont speak the language and
> these guys were fresh out of the river with little English skills, so
> getting it from them is not possible.
> Thanks for helping for this novice cheese maker!
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From alhiem at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 10:19:57 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:19:57 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
In-Reply-To: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
References: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702170719g4e4ac6b0y72b697eb1b538f45@mail.gmail.com>

By the way, a good queso fresco cheese will be easy to spot.  Cut it in
chunks, about 1" or 1/2" cubes, heat up some oil and deep fry it for a few
seconds.  If it doesnt melt you have the genuine stuff.  if it melts a bit,
then it was tried to, but not quite achieved.  If fryed in olive oil, it
tastes awesome.  great snak for your get togethers.

On 2/16/07, Steve Laycock <slaycock at discoverynet.com> wrote:
>
> I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
> "Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
> chips.  I have a dairy available to me for fresh milk and have seen
> several
> Mexicans purchasing over 100 gallons of fresh milk to make this cheese and
> supplying it to local Mexican restaurants.  I dont speak the language and
> these guys were fresh out of the river with little English skills, so
> getting it from them is not possible.
> Thanks for helping for this novice cheese maker!
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From tomcoll67 at msn.com  Sat Feb 17 10:45:53 2007
From: tomcoll67 at msn.com (Tom)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:45:53 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <BAY104-DAV17548669ED6885D778AE7895940@phx.gbl>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
	<BAY104-DAV17548669ED6885D778AE7895940@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV1126E8E0F6A777C5EC9732BE940@phx.gbl>

What type of Press is it. I have a pvc one and have read it stinks. I have
not used it yet and believe that I probably wasted the money on it. What
type is recommended

Thank you,

Tom Collick

 

  _____  

From: cheese-bounces at hbd.org [mailto:cheese-bounces at hbd.org] On Behalf Of
TOM KNUCKEY
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 10:45 PM
To: The Cheese Makers' Digest
Subject: Re: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long
Post

 

Hi Jack - I received your cheese press about a week ago, and made my first
batch last Saturday (cheddar.)  I have no idea how it's going to taste, but
it looked great!  Just wanted to shoot you a quick note and thank you for
the press - it worked like a charm.

 

Have a great weekend.

 

Tom Knuckey

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Jack <mailto:arf at mc.net>  Schmidling 

To: The <mailto:cheese at hbd.org>  Cheese Makers' Digest 

Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:39 AM

Subject: Re: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long
Post

 


> I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
> mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
> flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.

First of all, experimenting with ingredients when something does not 
work, is not a good idea.

Second, you did not say what kind of cheese you were trying to make but 
letting it sit over night with the starter has nothing to do with making 
a typical cheddar cheese.

> A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
> in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
> sediment on the bottom of the glass.

Use liquid rennet.


> Can you offer any advice?

Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com

_______________________________________________
Cheese mailing list
Cheese at hbd.org
http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese

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From rosemarygoddess at moonwiseherbs.com  Sat Feb 17 15:20:31 2007
From: rosemarygoddess at moonwiseherbs.com (Linda Conroy)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:20:31 -0700
Subject: [Cheese] mexican cheese, raw milk, rennet etc
Message-ID: <200702172022.l1HKKsRC019674@brew.hbd.org>

<P>Greetings. A few comments:</P>
<P>1. about the mexican&nbsp; cheese, Rikki Carrols book Home Cheese Making has a recipe for this cheese, she curdles it with vinegar. I have made it and it turns out great. </P>
<P>2. about milk; I use only farm fresh (raw) milk. The few times I have used parteurized milk, the cheese came out ok, but the curd was not as firm as the raw milk curd. Also milk from the store is not fresh, it has been through a long process before it gets to the store. </P>
<P>3. When making a hard cheese you would not let the culture sit in the milk for 15 hours, I have not seen a recipe that calls for this kind of time frame. If you want to make hard cheese again I would get Rikki Carrol's book Home Cheese Making-her recipes in my opinion are the most reliable for beginning cheese makers. The one thing I ignore in her book, is pasteurizing the milk, so I leave out the calcium choloride.</P>
<P>4. Rennet, I too would suggest using liquid rennet I find it much more reliable. </P>
<P>5. On my website <A href="http://www.moonwiseherbs.com">www.moonwiseherbs.com</A> I have a simple cheese page, I talk about raw milk, and also offer a simple farmers cheese recipe, which I find very simple to make. It is a fresh cheese, similar to the Mexican cheese, but you use rennet instead of vinegar.</P>
<P>6. Also I have Jack's cheese press and while the press itself it great, I purchased a different mold, which has holes in it. I use this mold with his press and that works best for me. (no offense Jack, I am sure it works fine for others the way it is, but I prefer it this way)</P>
<P>Hope that is helpful.</P>
<P>Linda</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>

Blessings,
Linda
www.moonwiseherbs.com

Communication is to relationship what breath is to life. -Virginia Satir


From ed124ch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 04:40:33 2007
From: ed124ch at yahoo.com (Walt)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 01:40:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
Message-ID: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?

I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it. 

They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very expensive.

Thanks for all the help,
B

 
---------------------------------
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From scott at waldetech.ca  Sat Feb 17 09:50:23 2007
From: scott at waldetech.ca (Scott Walde)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:50:23 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
In-Reply-To: <45D712B8.1040504@kganderson.net>
References: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
	<45D712B8.1040504@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <45D7162F.10904@waldetech.ca>

Rikki Carroll's book "Home Cheese Making" has recipes for Queso Blanco 
and Queso Fresco.  I've made the Queso Fresco and was very happy with it.

ttyl
srw


Kit Anderson wrote:
> You may be referring to either queso blanco 
>   

> Steve Laycock wrote:
>   
>> I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
>> "Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
>>     




From tomcoll67 at msn.com  Sun Feb 18 14:46:32 2007
From: tomcoll67 at msn.com (Tom)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:46:32 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
In-Reply-To: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV1411B3957C060687CCAE3BE8B0@phx.gbl>

rennet  /r'?n?t/
 
??? 4 ??? [rennet] ??? (??????????????????)






????(1): pydict data [pydict]






   <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/rennet> rennet
  ( <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/a> a.)?????;???;????
 
????(2): Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]






   <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/Rennet> Rennet \Ren"net\,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/n> n. [ <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/AS> AS.  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/rinnan> rinnan,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/rennan> rennan,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/to> to  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/run> run,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/cf> cf.  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/gerinnan> gerinnan
      <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/to> to  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/curdle> curdle,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/coagulate> coagulate. [ <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/root> root] <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/11> 11.  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/See> See { <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/Run> Run},  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/v> v.]
      <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/The> The  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/inner> inner,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/or> or  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/mucous> mucous,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/membrane> membrane  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/of> of  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/the> the  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/fourth> fourth  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/stomach> stomach  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/of> of  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/the> the
      <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/calf> calf,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/or> or  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/other> other  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/young> young  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/ruminant> ruminant;  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/also> also,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/an> an  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/infusion> infusion  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/or> or
      <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/preparation> preparation  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/of> of  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/it> it,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/used> used  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/for> for  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/coagulating> coagulating  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/milk> milk. [ <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/Written> Written  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/also> also
     { <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/runnet> runnet}.]

 

 

  _____  

From: cheese-bounces at hbd.org [mailto:cheese-bounces at hbd.org] On Behalf Of Walt
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 4:41 AM
To: cheese at hbd.org
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet

 

Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?

I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it. 

They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very expensive.

Thanks for all the help,
B

  

  _____  

Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! <http://answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx>  Answers.

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From scott at saskatoon.com  Sun Feb 18 15:22:14 2007
From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:22:14 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
In-Reply-To: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45D8B576.20305@saskatoon.com>

Walt wrote:
> Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?
>
Honestly, you'd probably be best off trying to import some rennet 
powder.  But, if you really want to make it yourself, visit a butcher 
and obtain the fourth stomach from a young calf.  There are a few ways 
to prepare this stomach including drying it out and grinding it into a 
powder, or simply keeping the stomach in a bottle of wine.  The wine 
will become an infusion that can be used to curdle milk.  Of course, you 
will have to experiment with quantities, as you will have no idea how 
strong the infusion is.

I'm not sure what shipping would be like for you, but I have ordered 
Valiren in reasonable quantities from Danlac: 
http://www.danlac.com/store/index.asp?category=3

ttyl
srw



From tim at twocentavos.com  Sun Feb 18 17:42:14 2007
From: tim at twocentavos.com (Tim Straight)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 06:42:14 +0800
Subject: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 16,
	Issue 5 -- Finding Rennet and Cultures
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1171818001.29813.cheese@hbd.org>
References: <mailman.7.1171818001.29813.cheese@hbd.org>
Message-ID: <45D8D646.4080107@twocentavos.com>

I live in the Philippines and I have a similar problem to Walt's: cheese 
isn't eaten much here in this country - I cannot find rennet or cheese 
cultures here and I haven't been able to find a source in the U.S. that 
ships to the Philippines or Asia. Can anyone help?

Regards,

Tim <tim at twocentavos.com>

***********************************************

Walt <ed124ch at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?
>
>I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it. 
>
>They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very expensive.
>  
>


From arf at mc.net  Sun Feb 18 18:43:16 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:43:16 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Finding Rennet and Cultures
In-Reply-To: <45D8D646.4080107@twocentavos.com>
References: <mailman.7.1171818001.29813.cheese@hbd.org>
	<45D8D646.4080107@twocentavos.com>
Message-ID: <45D8E494.6070502@mc.net>

Tim Straight wrote:
> I live in the Philippines and I have a similar problem to Walt's: cheese 
> isn't eaten much here in this country - I cannot find rennet or cheese 
> cultures here and I haven't been able to find a source in the U.S. that 
> ships to the Philippines or Asia. Can anyone help?

I don't make a habit of promoting suppliers but as you are having 
problems, I would suggest grapeandgranary.com  I can't imagine why 
anyone would not ship to anywhere if you are willing to pay the postage. 
  They ship our stuff all over the world.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From derekbradford at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 08:47:11 2007
From: derekbradford at gmail.com (Derek Bradford)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:47:11 +0900
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
Message-ID: <799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>

> > Can you offer any advice?
>
> Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
> Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.
>

I just finished a batch of cheese.  I got a clean break this time.  I
was truly unscientific, however, and have not technically pinpointed
the problem I was having.

I combined yours (Jack) and David's recipes for a basic pound of
cheese from a gallon of milk.  I did that because I'd already bought
the gallon of milk and had no other pressing use for it.  Jack's
recipe called for pasteurizing and then cooling to 86 degrees; I
skipped the pasteurization and warmed my milk to 86.  David's called
for an overnight inoculation rest; Jack's called for an hour.  I went
with an hour, following the suggestion that perhaps my ph was off; if
so, a shorter rest might fix that problem.  I also added calcium
chloride to the warmed milk.  Following inoculation (yogurt), I added
the rennet, and after 3 hours I had a clean break (due to the
thermophylic instead of mesophylic starter).

Thanks for the help!
--Derek


From peter at naeslund.dk  Tue Feb 20 09:49:26 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:49:26 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
Message-ID: <008d01c754fe$51709eb0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


  Hi.. I am new here ( will post an intro later on )..

  It may be helpful if you know the name of the enzyme in rennet.. The name you are looking for is Chymosin..

  The rennet we use at the dayjob is manufactured to our specifications, but we do use some commercially available products, that you should be able to source in China..
  One of these is Hannilase, available from Christian Hansen..

  You might want to email either Christian Hansen or Danisco for suggestions for local sources of rennet.. 

  http://www.chr-hansen.com/ 
  http://www.danisco.com

  Both of these companies have a presence in China and are usually generous when it comes to samples..

  /peter
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Walt 
    To: cheese at hbd.org 
    Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:40 AM
    Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet


    Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?

    I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it. 

    They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very expensive.

    Thanks for all the help,
    B



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From michael.brandt1 at verizon.net  Tue Feb 20 13:17:13 2007
From: michael.brandt1 at verizon.net (michael brandt)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:17:13 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
Message-ID: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>

    Hi,  I've been reading and learning a lot from this forum thank 
you!  I have a question about a blue cheese that I made  days ago.  I 
followed Dr. Frankhausers procedure for making blue cheese.  The cheese 
has developed a very nice bloom and rind,  much like in the I have to 
taste that cheese picture on his web page.  A recent development has me 
worried however, the wheel has started to develop small cracks on the 
sides.  Should I worry about this and take action?  Should I not worry 
about it, it is normal for the cheese to crack?  Should I immediately 
hide in my shop eat it?

Thanks in advance!
Michael Brandt

P.S.  I leaning toward the later!!



From dean_crabtree_1958 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 14:13:36 2007
From: dean_crabtree_1958 at yahoo.com (dean crabtree)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:13:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20070220191336.64827.qmail@web36215.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Your humidity is probably too low, and is causing the wheel to crack.  Keep it wrapped with toweling during the early days.
   
  HTH,
   
  dc
   
  ps.  also look at http://www.sicklesmarket.com/Gourmet20%Club/Items%20Archives/Stilton$20Cheese.htm ,
  http://www.colstonbassettdairy.com/ourcheeses.html and http://users.crocker.com_~jwallace/Cheese/Stilton/Stilton.html for other hints on this, the greatest of the cheeses.



 
---------------------------------
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Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
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From alhiem at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 16:16:28 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:16:28 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
References: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>

to keep humidity high, super important with this type of cheese, add an open
container, flat and long for prefferance, filled with water at the bottom of
the fridge.  temp is also very important.  A temp that is to low wont let
the friendly fungus to grow nicely.  Dr. F has a lot of info.  there is one
link in his site that will send you to a friend of his.  This man does a
very nice blue too.  Worth to check out.
To quote http://schmidling.com/cres.htm#stilton

To ripen the cheese, it should be in a cool and humid environment. A plastic
shoe box with the lid on will maintian about 95% humidity with the cheese
inside. For the first month or so, it wants to be around 60F.

I hope it turns out alright, i love blue and it would be shame for it to go
to waste.  Good luck!!!
On 2/20/07, michael brandt <michael.brandt1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>    Hi,  I've been reading and learning a lot from this forum thank
> you!  I have a question about a blue cheese that I made  days ago.  I
> followed Dr. Frankhausers procedure for making blue cheese.  The cheese
> has developed a very nice bloom and rind,  much like in the I have to
> taste that cheese picture on his web page.  A recent development has me
> worried however, the wheel has started to develop small cracks on the
> sides.  Should I worry about this and take action?  Should I not worry
> about it, it is normal for the cheese to crack?  Should I immediately
> hide in my shop eat it?
>
> Thanks in advance!
> Michael Brandt
>
> P.S.  I leaning toward the later!!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From alhiem at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 16:22:32 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:22:32 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
In-Reply-To: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702201322ge6fb5eeu4308005c025f74d2@mail.gmail.com>

If you can, drop a query on wikipedia.  As far as i can remember (reading)
you need the 4th stomach of a young calf.  You dry the thing and use it as a
base.  You grind it and stirr it up with water.  The actual concentration
will vary.  There are plants that produce a substance similar to what you
get from animal stomachs.  Wikipedia has more info.
To quote wikipedia:
Vegetable rennet

Many plants have coagulating properties. Some examples include fig
tree<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fig_tree>bark,
nettles <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nettles>,
thistles<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thistle>,
mallow <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallow>, and Creeping
Charlie<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creeping_Charlie>.
Rennet from thistle or *cynara <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynara>* is
used in some traditional cheese production in the
Mediterranean<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean>
.

These real vegetable rennets are also suitable for
vegetarians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian>.
Vegetable rennet might be used in the production of
kosher<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_foods>cheeses but nearly
all kosher cheeses are produced with either microbial
rennet or GM rennet. Worldwide there is also no industrial production for
vegetable rennet. Commercial so-called vegetable rennets usually contain
rennet from the mold <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold> *Mucor miehei* -
see microbial rennet below.

Saludos,
On 2/18/07, Walt <ed124ch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?
>
> I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must
> have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it.
>
> They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very
> expensive.
>
> Thanks for all the help,
> B
>
> ------------------------------
> Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your
> question on Yahoo! Answers<http://answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx>.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
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From alhiem at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 16:42:00 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:42:00 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
	<799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com>

Dr. F fails to make a prominent note of the fact that ALL his milk is
homegrown.  He does not need calcium chloride.  As both Jack and Dr. F
stress, clean stuff is a must.  Temp is a major factor.  Dr. calls for an
overnight rippening because, i suspect, he lives way up north, cold country.
Here in Puerto Rico (hot tropical zone), i've had very good results using
cultured yogurt.  The messo starters have given me mixed results.  The best
ones were when i stood by my milk/cheese ALL the time.  Heating was done by
placing the container in a bath of boiling water in the sink, adding hot and
cold water to maintain almost 83 degrees all the time.  When my milk finally
reached that temp i added the cacl and after a few seconds of light
stirring, the innoculate.  In those cases, 4oz of yogurt mixed with 1 oz of
warm milk.  Left it to acidify for, i think, two hours on average, added
rennet (pill, junkjet, the same that Dr. F uses) and finnaly to curdle in
the same bath for some 2-3 hours.  Had the most beutifull cheese i had made
so far.  We could not wait and it was eaten within the week.  Note that i
never mentioned pasteurization.  My milk is store bought.  I wish i had a
fresh source.

Adding to little or too much af any of the ingredients can cause serious
problems.  There is no such thing as too much cleaning tho.  Both Jacks and
Dr. F. recepies have worked for me.  And for both, do as they say (and add
cacl to Dr. F's recepies), don't stray, don't improvise until you get the
hang of it.  Mrs. Carrol's book is very educational.

Saludos,

albert


On 2/19/07, Derek Bradford <derekbradford at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Can you offer any advice?
> >
> > Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
> > Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.
> >
>
> I just finished a batch of cheese.  I got a clean break this time.  I
> was truly unscientific, however, and have not technically pinpointed
> the problem I was having.
>
> I combined yours (Jack) and David's recipes for a basic pound of
> cheese from a gallon of milk.  I did that because I'd already bought
> the gallon of milk and had no other pressing use for it.  Jack's
> recipe called for pasteurizing and then cooling to 86 degrees; I
> skipped the pasteurization and warmed my milk to 86.  David's called
> for an overnight inoculation rest; Jack's called for an hour.  I went
> with an hour, following the suggestion that perhaps my ph was off; if
> so, a shorter rest might fix that problem.  I also added calcium
> chloride to the warmed milk.  Following inoculation (yogurt), I added
> the rennet, and after 3 hours I had a clean break (due to the
> thermophylic instead of mesophylic starter).
>
> Thanks for the help!
> --Derek
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From peter at naeslund.dk  Tue Feb 20 18:30:51 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:30:51 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>

First off: Jack Schmidling invited me to join this list after a short discussion about making cheese from recombined milk..

Bit of background:

I work for one of the largest dairy co-operatives in northern Europe.. The facility I work at makes semihard yellow cheese ( Edam/Gouda types ) from approx. 550 tons of milk per day. I also do a fair bit of concert sound reinforcement and audiovisual work, but thats probably not on topic here :-)

I came across Jack Schmidlings website about making cheese milk from milk powder, water and butter, and while the idea itself is sound I am not overly exited about using raw egg yolk as an emulsifier in something like cheese, where Salmonella etc. have very good growth conditions, so I suggested a trick we used for Feta cheese..

I dont know anything about your background in dairy technology, organic and protein chemistry, so I will make a brief explanation of the things involved first:

Milk fat is enclosed in a shell of phosforlipids that keeps the fat contained. One end of the shell molecules can stick to water, and the other can stick to fat - this is what emulsifiers ( and soap products ) are all about. 

When churning butter, you basically smash the shell on some of the fat globules releasing the fat.. The free fat sticks to the fat globules and basically glues them together. The surplus of phosforlipids is discharged with the buttermilk, wich ends up containing around 0.1% Lecitin ( the primary fat globule shell material )

On with the experiment:
I used to work at a place that made Feta style cheese w. vegetable fat instead of milk fat.

We usually mixed the milk in 100 ton batches, typically using around 20 tons of buttermilk + 3,5 tons of veggie oil and 76.5 tons of nearly fat free skimmed milk. 

The buttermilk was not from cultured butter and was close to free as it was a byproduct that would have been sold as animal feed if we hadnt used it..

Now.. We had to homogenise the milk very lightly ( you normally dont do that for regular yellow cheese ) in order to keep the fat in its emulsion. This was mainly because we sometimes stored the milk for ~48 hrs before using..

I have adapted the idea of using buttermilk as an emulsifier to icecream production ( industrial scale ) and managed to eliminate the use of emulsifiers completely..

I am guessing this should work in cheese production aswell, so if someone could try substituting regular skimmed milk powder for buttermilk powder, you should be able to get the fat dissolved in the milk without problems.

Buttermilk powder should be available at the places that also sell you 50 lbs bags of skimmed or whole milk powder.

I'd have loved to conduct a series of experiments, but we cant make cheese from anything less than 16 tons of milk at a time here, and obtaining fresh, uncultured buttermilk in those quantities would mean sending a truck on a 250 mile detour :-) Besides.. If we need milk at the dayjob we just call the head office and order a couple of transfer-loads from one of the other facilities..

Anyone care to try the experiment?
Questions ?
Comments?

/peter

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From kit at kganderson.net  Tue Feb 20 20:58:40 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:58:40 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net>

I assume that this is considering a recipe using powdered skim milk and 
milk fat so that you don't have to use homogenized milk. Is that right?
Powdered buttermilk is readily available in grocery stores. I use it as 
an ingredient in baking for its flavor. Reconstituted, it doesn't taste 
like buttermilk to me. So, I am not sure that as the main ingredient it 
would work. I think that one could used it in a small amount for its 
emulsifying properties. One could take Jack's recipe for mozzarella and 
add a little buttermilk powder at a time until  it looks like the fat is 
no longer separated.

The reason for doing this is to keep the calcium that homogenization 
makes unavailable. Is that correct? If so, then I wonder what effect the 
process of making powered milk has on the calcium.

Kit

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:
> I am guessing this should work in cheese production aswell, so if 
> someone could try substituting regular skimmed milk powder for 
> buttermilk powder, you should be able to get the fat dissolved in the 
> milk without problems.
>  
> Buttermilk powder should be available at the places that also sell you 
> 50 lbs bags of skimmed or whole milk powder.
>  
>  
> Anyone care to try the experiment?
> Questions ?
> Comments?
>  
> /peter



From peter at naeslund.dk  Tue Feb 20 22:47:51 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:47:51 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


I assume that this is considering a recipe using powdered skim milk and 
milk fat so that you don't have to use homogenized milk. Is that right?

****

No, The idea is to avoid using raw egg products in something that already poses a risk..

( The eggyolk acts as an emulsifier - in both icecream and Jacks recombined milk recipe )..

You should avoid using homogenised milk for cheese for several reasons

****
Powdered buttermilk is readily available in grocery stores. I use it as 
an ingredient in baking for its flavor. Reconstituted, it doesn't taste 
like buttermilk to me. So, I am not sure that as the main ingredient it 
would work. 
****

It doesnt taste like buttermilk because the buttermilk you buy is cultured - the powdered stuff is not cultured.. It would cause lots of "fun" problems if you tried to process cultured buttermilk to powder..


****


I think that one could used it in a small amount for its 
emulsifying properties. One could take Jack's recipe for mozzarella and 
add a little buttermilk powder at a time until  it looks like the fat is 
no longer separated.

****

The idea is that the buttermilk contains a natural emulsifier that shouldnt interfere with the rest of the cheese making process.. The eggyolk does the same, but is a bit risky

****

The reason for doing this is to keep the calcium that homogenization 
makes unavailable. Is that correct? If so, then I wonder what effect the 
process of making powered milk has on the calcium.

****

Homogenising doesnt mess with the Calcium afaik, but the pasteurising process normally used for drinking grade milk does..

The homogenising can cause problems when it comes to getting the water out of the cheese, as the smaller fat globules tend to clog up the protein grid formed during the coagulation

/peter

> I am guessing this should work in cheese production aswell, so if 
> someone could try substituting regular skimmed milk powder for 
> buttermilk powder, you should be able to get the fat dissolved in the 
> milk without problems.
>  
> Buttermilk powder should be available at the places that also sell you 
> 50 lbs bags of skimmed or whole milk powder.
>  
>  
> Anyone care to try the experiment?
> Questions ?
> Comments?
>  
> /peter

_______________________________________________
Cheese mailing list
Cheese at hbd.org
http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese




From michael.brandt1 at verizon.net  Wed Feb 21 00:17:07 2007
From: michael.brandt1 at verizon.net (michael brandt)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:17:07 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
	<1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45DBD5D3.9000108@verizon.net>

    First of all, thank you!  Do you think it would be best to just eat 
it now, or try to increase the humidity int the fridge/Albert Ortiz wrote:
> to keep humidity high, super important with this type of cheese, add 
> an open container, flat and long for prefferance, filled with water at 
> the bottom of the fridge.  temp is also very important.  A temp that 
> is to low wont let the friendly fungus to grow nicely.  Dr. F has a 
> lot of info.  there is one link in his site that will send you to a 
> friend of his.  This man does a very nice blue too.  Worth to check 
> out.  
> To quote http://schmidling.com/cres.htm#stilton
>
> To ripen the cheese, it should be in a cool and humid environment. A 
> plastic shoe box with the lid on will maintian about 95% humidity with 
> the cheese inside. For the first month or so, it wants to be around 60F.
>
> I hope it turns out alright, i love blue and it would be shame for it 
> to go to waste.  Good luck!!!
>
> On 2/20/07, *michael brandt* <michael.brandt1 at verizon.net 
> <mailto:michael.brandt1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
>        Hi,  I've been reading and learning a lot from this forum thank
>     you!  I have a question about a blue cheese that I made  days ago.  I
>     followed Dr. Frankhausers procedure for making blue cheese.  The
>     cheese
>     has developed a very nice bloom and rind,  much like in the I have to
>     taste that cheese picture on his web page.  A recent development
>     has me
>     worried however, the wheel has started to develop small cracks on the
>     sides.  Should I worry about this and take action?  Should I not worry
>     about it, it is normal for the cheese to crack?  Should I immediately
>     hide in my shop eat it?
>
>     Thanks in advance!
>     Michael Brandt
>
>     P.S.  I leaning toward the later!!
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Cheese mailing list
>     Cheese at hbd.org <mailto:Cheese at hbd.org>
>     http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>   



From kit at kganderson.net  Wed Feb 21 12:15:53 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:15:53 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net>
	<014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net>

>
> The idea is that the buttermilk contains a natural emulsifier that shouldnt interfere with the rest of the cheese making process.. The eggyolk does the same, but is a bit risky


Interesting. Are eggs used in cheese making? If the concern is health, 
then it is possible to pasteurize the yolks without setting them. Is 
there a preparation of phospholipids that could be used in place of eggs 
or buttermilk?

Kit


From plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Wed Feb 21 13:03:52 2007
From: plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:03:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>
References: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>

   After a two-year hiatus, I finally made the time to make
two batches of cheese over the past two weeks (a stirred-curd
cheddar and an attempt at a semi-hard sort-of Havarti with
dill; I also smoked 2/3 of the former).
   Both times, I just couldn't bear throwing out the collected
whey, so I tried both of the whey cheese (riccota) recipes in
the Carroll "Home Cheesemaking" book.  They are quite simple,
involving mostly just heating the whey to near boiling (one
with vinegar, one without), then draining through butter muslin
(I used tight-meshed cheesecloth).  One recipe said yield
should be about 1/2 pound per gallon of whey, while the other
simply said "yield is low."  Both times, I got a meager 3 to
4 tablespoons of soft cheese, in spite of adding some
extra milk or cream to help with yield.
   So my questions are, has anybody else done this, and if
so what yield did you get?  And if the yield should be
higher, what could I have done wrong to keep the yield so
low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
-- 
Joel Plutchak


From peter at naeslund.dk  Wed Feb 21 17:36:04 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:36:04 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> >
> > The idea is that the buttermilk contains a natural emulsifier that shouldnt interfere with the rest of the cheese making process.. The eggyolk does the same, but is a bit risky
> 
> 
> Interesting. Are eggs used in cheese making? 

Not traditionally, but Jack Schmidling suggests using eggs as an emulsifier...

>If the concern is health, 
> then it is possible to pasteurize the yolks without setting them. 

It is health concerns, but also the idea... While it most definately works, I would feel better about having a product that contained just milk, rennet, starter culture and salt..

>Is 
> there a preparation of phospholipids that could be used in place of eggs 
> or buttermilk?

Almost any emulsifier will do the trick, but looking at it from a health-nuts POV, you will be adding *bad* stuff to your cheese like GM products, synthetisized chemicals etc., so from all sides, the buttermilk looks like the ideal solution..


/peter



From kit at kganderson.net  Wed Feb 21 21:42:03 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:42:03 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net>
	<009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net>

Health food nuts. Gotta love them. "Our ions are better than your ions." 
You are right about the marketing aspect.
So, you are suggesting to try replacing some of the powdered milk with 
just enough powdered buttermilk to emulsify the the added fat. Is that 
correct?
Kit
> Almost any emulsifier will do the trick, but looking at it from a health-nuts POV, you will be adding *bad* stuff to your cheese like GM products, synthetisized chemicals etc., so from all sides, the buttermilk looks like the ideal solution..
>
>
> /peter
>   



From peter at naeslund.dk  Wed Feb 21 21:59:38 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:59:38 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> Health food nuts. Gotta love them. "Our ions are better than your ions." 

Well... thats a matter of opinion.. Personally I dont care too much, but if I can make a given product without additives without huge problems, I will..


> You are right about the marketing aspect.
> So, you are suggesting to try replacing some of the powdered milk with 
> just enough powdered buttermilk to emulsify the the added fat. Is that 
> correct?

I am suggesting replacing all the skimmed milk powder with buttermilk powder, just to see if there are any negative effects during the ripening, but a 60/40 mix might work well too.. It would take a few experiments to get it right, but IMO, the idea is sound..

Imagine serving your homemade cheese to guests and they ask how you made it.. Imagine the puzzled look on their faces when you tell them you put eggs in it.. It just doesnt belong there :-)

/peter
> Kit
> > Almost any emulsifier will do the trick, but looking at it from a health-nuts POV, you will be adding *bad* stuff to your cheese like GM products, synthetisized chemicals etc., so from all sides, the buttermilk looks like the ideal solution..
> >
> >
> > /peter
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> 



From arf at mc.net  Wed Feb 21 19:53:36 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:53:36 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
References: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <45DCE990.1000602@mc.net>

Joel Plutchak wrote:

> So my questions are, has anybody else done this, and if
> so what yield did you get?  And if the yield should be
> higher, what could I have done wrong to keep the yield so
> low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
> it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.

I think we all come to that conclusion after just one attempt at 
"salvaging" the whey.

To get any decent yield out of a "whey" cheese you need to use equal 
parts of whole milk so it is a loser for the small producer.

Furthermore, and I am too lazy to look up the details, but something 
happens to the whey if it sit too long and so it must be used within 
hours.  This means that one has to make two batches of cheese in series 
on the same day which makes for a very long day and for what?

You can boil the whey down and make those Scandinavian "cheeses" but the 
energy required makes it a real loser unless you just want that kind of 
cheese.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com




From arf at mc.net  Wed Feb 21 20:07:04 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:07:04 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net>
	<009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DCECB8.50907@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> Not traditionally, but Jack Schmidling suggests using eggs as an
> emulsifier...

For the record, this is the footnote on my milk page....
...............

N.B. The dry and butter I extrapolated from a smaller batch in which I 
actually used an egg yolk to emulsify the butter in a quart of the milk. 
The lecithin works just as well and removes the potential risk of using 
raw egg.

........

One can get a lifetime supply of liquid lecithin from healthfood stores 
for a few dollars around here.

The only problem with the stuff is that it is hideously sticky and messy 
to work with.  Just cleaning the measuring spoon is a major project.  It 
seems to be soluble only in dynamite.

We happen to raise chickens and have some degree of confidence in their 
health.  It also happens to be rather easy to Pasteurize egg yolks 
without effecting the emulsifying power.  This is done routinely when 
making sauce mayonnaise at home.  If you just bring the yolks to 150F 
and cool immediately, you will kill Salmonella and not set the egg.  Too 
much trouble but it can be done.

I really like the idea of the powdered buttermilk though.  It avoids all 
these other issues.

js


-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com




From arf at mc.net  Wed Feb 21 23:52:19 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:52:19 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net>
	<00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> I am suggesting replacing all the skimmed milk powder with buttermilk
> powder, just to see if there are any negative effects........

One negative effect could be the price.  I suspect dried buttermilk 
would be much more expensive than NF Dry Milk.

Just for reality check here, the whole point of this is that butter is 
not only much less expensive than the equivalent in heavy cream but it's 
shelf life is nearly as long as powdered milk.  With dry milk and 
butter, one can make cheese when the whim occurs without having to make 
a trip to town to get fresh stuff.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Thu Feb 22 03:13:57 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:13:57 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>
Message-ID: <00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
........

One negative effect could be the price.  I suspect dried buttermilk 
would be much more expensive than NF Dry Milk.

**

I can only speak for the price of the fresh, uncultured buttermilk and fresh skimmed milk from the farmer.. I believe we pay around 0.29 DKK ( around 4 US cents ) per litre of uncultured buttermilk, while we pay around 3 times as much for skimmed milk ..

Ofcourse those prices may well be different in small quantities..

/peter



From scott at saskatoon.com  Thu Feb 22 08:44:38 2007
From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:44:38 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
In-Reply-To: <45DCE990.1000602@mc.net>
References: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
	<45DCE990.1000602@mc.net>
Message-ID: <45DD9E46.3040009@saskatoon.com>

One alternative to dumping your whey down the drain is to find someone 
who is experimenting with biobutanol production.  Apparently whey is a 
good source of food for the ABE bacteria used in this process.  For more 
information see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biogasoline/

ttyl
srw

Jack Schmidling wrote:
> Joel Plutchak wrote:
>  
>> low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
>> it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
>>     
>
> I think we all come to that conclusion after just one attempt at 
> "salvaging" the whey.
>
> To get any decent yield out of a "whey" cheese you need to use equal 
> parts of whole milk so it is a loser for the small producer.
>   


From peter at naeslund.dk  Thu Feb 22 10:43:17 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:43:17 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
References: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu><45DCE990.1000602@mc.net>
	<45DD9E46.3040009@saskatoon.com>
Message-ID: <013e01c75698$2dfef5d0$0701a8c0@tissemand>

The lactose in the whey is great bacteria food..  The local sewage processing plant usually gets around 40 tons of whey per day to keep their bacteria alive.. They had been having problems since both the slaughterhouse and bisquit factory in town closed..

/peter
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Walde" <scott at saskatoon.com>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions


> One alternative to dumping your whey down the drain is to find someone 
> who is experimenting with biobutanol production.  Apparently whey is a 
> good source of food for the ABE bacteria used in this process.  For more 
> information see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biogasoline/
> 
> ttyl
> srw
> 
> Jack Schmidling wrote:
> > Joel Plutchak wrote:
> >  
> >> low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
> >> it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
> >>     
> >
> > I think we all come to that conclusion after just one attempt at 
> > "salvaging" the whey.
> >
> > To get any decent yield out of a "whey" cheese you need to use equal 
> > parts of whole milk so it is a loser for the small producer.
> >   
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> 



From alhiem at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 10:50:50 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:50:50 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <45DBD5D3.9000108@verizon.net>
References: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
	<1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>
	<45DBD5D3.9000108@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702220750k4405f6e3qacb826b93e99f450@mail.gmail.com>

First of all

God my English, in the last mail, was awful!



If you can keep it from getting dryer, then wait.  Watch it like a hawk, if
you see it getting dryer and dryer, eat it.  Low moisture will prevent the
mold's growth somewhat but having no ventilation will definitely prevent
growth.  So having a few cracks could actually be good; if the mold is able
to take hold of those areas, the better.  At the very least, you can end up
with a blue with a consistency of Gorgonzola, hard, crumbly and utterly
delicious.  Blues are better, as with most cheeses, aged.

saludos,

albert

On 2/21/07, michael brandt <michael.brandt1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>    First of all, thank you!  Do you think it would be best to just eat
> it now, or try to increase the humidity int the fridge/Albert Ortiz wrote:
> > to keep humidity high, super important with this type of cheese, add
> > an open container, flat and long for prefferance, filled with water at
> > the bottom of the fridge.  temp is also very important.  A temp that
> > is to low wont let the friendly fungus to grow nicely.  Dr. F has a
> > lot of info.  there is one link in his site that will send you to a
> > friend of his.  This man does a very nice blue too.  Worth to check
> > out.
> > To quote http://schmidling.com/cres.htm#stilton
> >
> > To ripen the cheese, it should be in a cool and humid environment. A
> > plastic shoe box with the lid on will maintian about 95% humidity with
> > the cheese inside. For the first month or so, it wants to be around 60F.
> >
> > I hope it turns out alright, i love blue and it would be shame for it
> > to go to waste.  Good luck!!!
> >
> > On 2/20/07, *michael brandt* <michael.brandt1 at verizon.net
> > <mailto:michael.brandt1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
> >
> >        Hi,  I've been reading and learning a lot from this forum thank
> >     you!  I have a question about a blue cheese that I made  days
> ago.  I
> >     followed Dr. Frankhausers procedure for making blue cheese.  The
> >     cheese
> >     has developed a very nice bloom and rind,  much like in the I have
> to
> >     taste that cheese picture on his web page.  A recent development
> >     has me
> >     worried however, the wheel has started to develop small cracks on
> the
> >     sides.  Should I worry about this and take action?  Should I not
> worry
> >     about it, it is normal for the cheese to crack?  Should I
> immediately
> >     hide in my shop eat it?
> >
> >     Thanks in advance!
> >     Michael Brandt
> >
> >     P.S.  I leaning toward the later!!
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     Cheese mailing list
> >     Cheese at hbd.org <mailto:Cheese at hbd.org>
> >     http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cheese mailing list
> > Cheese at hbd.org
> > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Thu Feb 22 11:05:05 2007
From: plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:05:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 16, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <mailman.123.1172159053.2593.cheese@hbd.org>
References: <mailman.123.1172159053.2593.cheese@hbd.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702221001500.12265@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>

Peter <peter at naeslund.dk> wrote:
>The lactose in the whey is great bacteria food..  The local sewage
>processing plant usually gets around 40 tons of whey per day to 
>keep their bacteria alive.. They had been having problems since 
>both the slaughterhouse and bisquit factory in town closed..

   Mmmmmm, bacteria!  I wonder if that means the whey would
be good for my composte heap?  Other than the fact that all
that excess moisture would probably upset the balance and
make it stinky, something that happens if I don't spread out
and turn over the spent grain from brewing beer that I dump
on it every month or so.
-- 
Joel Plutchak


From peter at naeslund.dk  Thu Feb 22 11:19:57 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:19:57 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 16, Issue 10
References: <mailman.123.1172159053.2593.cheese@hbd.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0702221001500.12265@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <016901c7569d$4d3917f0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joel Plutchak" <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
To: <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 16, Issue 10


> Peter <peter at naeslund.dk> wrote:
> >The lactose in the whey is great bacteria food..  The local sewage
> >processing plant usually gets around 40 tons of whey per day to 
> >keep their bacteria alive.. They had been having problems since 
> >both the slaughterhouse and bisquit factory in town closed..
> 
>    Mmmmmm, bacteria!  I wonder if that means the whey would
> be good for my composte heap?  Other than the fact that all
> that excess moisture would probably upset the balance and
> make it stinky, something that happens if I don't spread out
> and turn over the spent grain from brewing beer that I dump
> on it every month or so.

>From time to time we have to pay the farmers to take care of some of our whey ( we do make around 300 tons of whey per day* ).. They just pump it into the tank containing the wasteproducts from the livestock and use that mix to fertilize the fields..

It depends on the size of your compost heap and how much whey you make, but I guess it would work.. Dont have any compost or gardening experience apart from groeing giggleweed in the closet, so I have no clue about the plantlifes reaction to this..

/peter



From arf at mc.net  Thu Feb 22 11:41:45 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:41:45 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <1e5a81050702220750k4405f6e3qacb826b93e99f450@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>	<1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>	<45DBD5D3.9000108@verizon.net>
	<1e5a81050702220750k4405f6e3qacb826b93e99f450@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45DDC7C9.4020308@mc.net>

What I do with blue cheese is to put it in the plastic shoe box with a 
hygrometer.  I mentioned that leaving about 1" open at the end produces 
about 95% humidity.  This was determined by using the hygrometer.

It should also be noted that it was in my particular fridge and it's 
particular temp.  So you need to work it out yourself but the urban 
legend of putting a pan of water in the fridge is useless.  Nowhere near 
the amount of moisture will be produced.... sometimes.

The other issue is that the more the fridge runs, the dryer it will be. 
  So you need to ponder that variable.  In summer it may be very dry and 
in Winter very humid.  The only way to know is to measure it and control 
the immediate environment of the cheese... hence the shoe box and 
hygrometer.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From DreamTo at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 13:22:03 2007
From: DreamTo at aol.com (DreamTo@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:22:03 EST
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
Message-ID: <d29.535ba9b.330f394b@aol.com>

please remove me from your email list
thanks
 

 (http://ult-tex.net/counts/index.cgi) 
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free 
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
http://www.aol.com.
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From grandmas at grandmastree.com  Thu Feb 22 14:12:59 2007
From: grandmas at grandmastree.com (Barbara)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:12:59 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] cancel subscription
Message-ID: <20070222190914.0897D1C88228@mail.sysmatrix.net>

Please remove me from your mailing list.

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From stevensherry at alltel.net  Thu Feb 22 19:22:11 2007
From: stevensherry at alltel.net (stevensherry)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:22:11 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] cancel subscription
References: <20070222190914.0897D1C88228@mail.sysmatrix.net>
Message-ID: <001901c756e0$a9d54d60$01fea8c0@calpe>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barbara 
  To: cheese at hbd.org 
  Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:12 PM
  Subject: [Cheese] cancel subscription


  Please remove me from your mailing list.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
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From kit at kganderson.net  Fri Feb 23 13:48:10 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:48:10 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>
	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>

I've got powdered butter milk. So, looking at Jack's recipe for 
mozzarella...
*1 Gallon reconstituted powdered buttermilk
160 grams unsalted butter
1/2 tsp Calcium Chloride
1/8 tsp S. thermophylus
1/8 tsp L. lactis
1/2 tsp liquid rennet

Is the CaCl still necessary? Does this sound like what you are looking 
to try, Peter?

Kit*


From peter at naeslund.dk  Fri Feb 23 14:26:23 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:26:23 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net><00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <024501c75780$84db6670$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> I've got powdered butter milk. So, looking at Jack's recipe for 
> mozzarella...
> *1 Gallon reconstituted powdered buttermilk
> 160 grams unsalted butter
> 1/2 tsp Calcium Chloride
> 1/8 tsp S. thermophylus
> 1/8 tsp L. lactis
> 1/2 tsp liquid rennet
> 
> Is the CaCl still necessary? Does this sound like what you are looking 
> to try, Peter?

The CaCl2 is still needed.. The CaCl2 comes into the game when the rennet starts breaking proteins apart.. The buttermilk idea is all about the fat..

Basically, my idea was just to swap the NF milk powder w. buttermilk powder..

>From the recipe it looks like its designed for frozen or dried cultures?... If you want to use fresh buttermilk as a starter instead, just throw a pint of fresh buttermilk in there..

But yes, it looks about right..

/peter


> 
> Kit*
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> 



From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 00:23:23 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:23:23 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>

Kit Anderson wrote:

> Is the CaCl still necessary? Does this sound like what you are looking 
> to try, Peter?

It is my understanding that as soon as milk is chilled, CaCl becomes 
necessary.  In other words, unless it is still warm from the cow, you 
should use it.

I am interested to know how this will emulsify.  I don't suppose you can 
just stir the melted butter into the warm butter milk but don't really know.

With lecithin or egg, it has to be worked in with a blender and the milk 
gradually added to the emulsified portion until you have a quart or 
more.  This then is added to the rest of the milk.  There was always 
some loss of fat that floated to the top and subsequently drained out 
but not enough to worry about.

The trick is to keep stirring up to the point where the rennet starts to 
set and then only allow it to set the minimum it takes to be able to cut 
it.  The longer it sits, the more fat is lost.

Let us know how the butter milk works.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 10:20:49 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:20:49 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
Message-ID: <003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> Kit Anderson wrote:
> 
> > Is the CaCl still necessary? Does this sound like what you are looking 
> > to try, Peter?
> 
> It is my understanding that as soon as milk is chilled, CaCl becomes 
> necessary.  In other words, unless it is still warm from the cow, you 
> should use it.

Erh?.. OK ?.. Care to explain or inform of a source?..
 
> I am interested to know how this will emulsify.  I don't suppose you can 
> just stir the melted butter into the warm butter milk but don't really know.
> 
> With lecithin or egg, it has to be worked in with a blender and the milk 
> gradually added to the emulsified portion until you have a quart or 
> more.  This then is added to the rest of the milk.  There was always 
> some loss of fat that floated to the top and subsequently drained out 
> but not enough to worry about.

About the same method we used when we made some tests with very small batches of veggie-oil based cheese ( 200 litre bathces ) We did homogenise it lightly, but using a blender should give the same results..

 
> The trick is to keep stirring up to the point where the rennet starts to 
> set and then only allow it to set the minimum it takes to be able to cut 
> it.  The longer it sits, the more fat is lost.

One trick could be to lower the pH to 5.25 chemically by using citric acid, At this pH it should be a matter of minutes before the milk coagulates..

/peter





From kit at kganderson.net  Sat Feb 24 17:59:49 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:59:49 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
Message-ID: <45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>

Here's the result from my effort. I divided the batch and tried two ways 
to emulsify the butter. First was in the blender at room temp, then 
heated. Second was putting the butter in at 90F, letting it melt, and 
then in the blender for 5 minutes. I added the cultures, waited, added 
the rennet, and waited.

No break at all. Waited another hour. No break. I cooled and then 
skimmed the milk. I was able to recover 86% of the butter. Then I 
applied heat in hopes of a ricotta. No deal.
So, powdered buttermilk will not emulsify butter fat. Although I have a 
biochem background, I am a noob at dairy science and can't explain the 
results. No casein in buttermilk, perhaps? Or the pH of the buttermilk 
was already low enough and the added culture was the culprit?

Kit



From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 19:17:27 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:17:27 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
	<003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E0D597.4020607@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

>> It is my understanding that as soon as milk is chilled, CaCl
>> becomes necessary.  In other words, unless it is still warm from
>> the cow, you should use it.
> 
> 
> Erh?.. OK ?.. Care to explain or inform of a source?..

Well, I presume that we can agree that it is chilling that upsets the
calcium balance but I am hard pressed to find a citation on needing to be
"warm from the cow".  I didn't invent the phrase; I just can't find a quote.


> One trick could be to lower the pH to 5.25 chemically by using citric
> acid, At this pH it should be a matter of minutes before the milk
> coagulates..

But it is then no longer cheese as we know it.  Well, at least not in 
the sense of a typical Cheddar type cheese.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 20:12:23 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:12:23 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net><45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
	<45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <008001c7587a$017863f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> Here's the result from my effort. I divided the batch and tried two ways 
> to emulsify the butter. First was in the blender at room temp, then 
> heated. Second was putting the butter in at 90F, letting it melt, and 
> then in the blender for 5 minutes. I added the cultures, waited, added 
> the rennet, and waited.
> 
> No break at all. Waited another hour. No break. I cooled and then 
> skimmed the milk. I was able to recover 86% of the butter. Then I 
> applied heat in hopes of a ricotta. No deal.
> So, powdered buttermilk will not emulsify butter fat. Although I have a 
> biochem background, I am a noob at dairy science and can't explain the 
> results. No casein in buttermilk, perhaps? Or the pH of the buttermilk 
> was already low enough and the added culture was the culprit?

Hmmm... Thats odd.. Really odd..

First off.. The pH has nothing to do with this - rennet will coagulate fresh milk, it just takes longer the farther you get away from rennet optimum pH ( ~5.4 )..

Second: The pH in recombined buttermilk is the same as in recombined NF milk.. Contrary to the buttermilk you buy at the stores, the dried stuff hasnt been cultured.. Cultured milk would just clog machinery once heated..

Third: Buttermilk contains ~3.5% protein on average, most of this is casein afaik..

Fourth: Kitchen cheesemakers seem to be experiencing very different coagulation times compared to what we get in an industrial environment - I have heard of people who put culture and rennet in the milk, left it overnight and cut it the next morning....

Coagulation usually takes about 40 minutes in the industrial environment I work at.. Its usually visible after 25 minutes..

/peter



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 20:17:08 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:17:08 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
	<45E0D597.4020607@mc.net>
Message-ID: <008801c7587a$ab1198a0$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

>> It is my understanding that as soon as milk is chilled, CaCl
>> becomes necessary.  In other words, unless it is still warm from
>> the cow, you should use it.
> 
> 
> Erh?.. OK ?.. Care to explain or inform of a source?..

Well, I presume that we can agree that it is chilling that upsets the
calcium balance but I am hard pressed to find a citation on needing to be
"warm from the cow".  I didn't invent the phrase; I just can't find a quote.

***

Thats a new one in my book.. Will ask the guy who is supposed to be in charge and know everything next time I speak to him..

***


> One trick could be to lower the pH to 5.25 chemically by using citric
> acid, At this pH it should be a matter of minutes before the milk
> coagulates..

But it is then no longer cheese as we know it.  Well, at least not in 
the sense of a typical Cheddar type cheese.

***

Some types of Mozzerella and many types of Feta are made this way 

/peter





From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 20:20:57 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:20:57 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
	<45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <45E0E479.3080501@mc.net>

Kit Anderson wrote:

>Or the pH of the buttermilk 
> was already low enough and the added culture was the culprit?

I sort of missed that issue.  Just what is the pH of the re-hydrated 
buttermilk?  If it is anything substantially different from fresh milk, 
I think we are off on a tangent.

On the other hand, non-cultured butter milk was originally mentioned. 
It is quite possible that the stuff we can get around here is cultured 
and I would presume, useless for cheese making.

The answer lies in the pH.  You need to measure it to go any farther. 
It wants to be around 6.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 20:27:01 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:27:01 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <008801c7587a$ab1198a0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E0D597.4020607@mc.net>
	<008801c7587a$ab1198a0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E0E5E5.9080501@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> Some types of Mozzerella and many types of Feta are made this way

Ok but beginner cheese makers usually start with a type of cottage 
cheese then move on to cheese curds and then up to a Cheddar type of 
hard pressed cheese and these must be made with a slow ripening and 
pressing, to develop acid over a specific period of time (about 5 hours).

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 20:29:35 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:29:35 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net>
Message-ID: <009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> Kit Anderson wrote:
> 
> >Or the pH of the buttermilk 
> > was already low enough and the added culture was the culprit?
> 
> I sort of missed that issue.  Just what is the pH of the re-hydrated 
> buttermilk?  If it is anything substantially different from fresh milk, 
> I think we are off on a tangent.

It shouldnt be too far off

> 
> On the other hand, non-cultured butter milk was originally mentioned. 
> It is quite possible that the stuff we can get around here is cultured 
> and I would presume, useless for cheese making.

No... The drying process will not work with cultured buttermilk - if you attempt to do so, you will have to clean a lot of heat exchangers, pipes etc... I have had clogged heatexchangers w. milk around pH 5.9.. And believe me.. Noone wants to unclog these on a daily basis..

The only fix is to adjust the pH to ~6.5 using sodium hydroxide ( thats what we use ) and pasteurise...
 
/peter



From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 20:38:51 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:38:51 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <008001c7587a$017863f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net><45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>	<45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
	<008001c7587a$017863f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E0E8AB.10900@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> 
> First off.. The pH has nothing to do with this - rennet will
> coagulate fresh milk, it just takes longer the farther you get away
> from rennet optimum pH ( ~5.4 )..

Right but it then is known in this country as Junket or pudding.

> Second: The pH in recombined buttermilk is the same as in recombined
> NF milk.. Contrary to the buttermilk you buy at the stores, the dried
> stuff hasnt been cultured..

That could be the problem here.  I have no idea what that stuff is in 
supermarkets called "dried buttermilk".

> Fourth: Kitchen cheesemakers seem to be experiencing very different
> coagulation times compared to what we get in an industrial
> environment...

There is no problem getting fresh liquid rennet to set in 30 minutes. 
In fact with good fresh milk, 20 min is all it takes. I think the 
problem is that with concocted milks from stores, the "set" is much 
softer and people prolong the process hoping that it will firm up and it 
never does, no matter CaCl or not.

The key is to give up after 40 mins and start heating very slowly and 
cut very carefully and stir even more carefully.  Once the curd starts 
to heat up a bit, it will be indistinguishable from fresh milk curds. 
It's the first few minutes that are precarious and very critical.

>I have heard of people who put culture and rennet in
> the milk, left it overnight and cut it the next morning....

Again, this is not cheese as defined above.  In fact, it is pretty much 
like yogurt.

js


-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 20:40:58 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:40:58 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E0D597.4020607@mc.net><008801c7587a$ab1198a0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
	<45E0E5E5.9080501@mc.net>
Message-ID: <009a01c7587d$ffbab190$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> Some types of Mozzerella and many types of Feta are made this way

Ok but beginner cheese makers usually start with a type of cottage 
cheese then move on to cheese curds and then up to a Cheddar type of 
hard pressed cheese and these must be made with a slow ripening and 
pressing, to develop acid over a specific period of time (about 5 hours).

**

The trick is not to use citric acid, but Glucono-Delta-Lacton ( dont tell anyone that I told you :-), acetic acid and lactic acid depending on the desired result... Neither of these will form eyes in the cheese, and it will take a few experiments to get it right.. Citric acid will also work, but it wont taste as "right" as the GDL version..

/peter



From zj06 at aub.edu.lb  Sun Feb 25 05:32:56 2007
From: zj06 at aub.edu.lb (Ziad D. Jaber)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:32:56 +0200
Subject: [Cheese] Whey proteins.
Message-ID: <1172399576.45e165d8f1cf4@imail.aub.edu.lb>



Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:03:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
To: cheese at hbd.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502 at badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

   After a two-year hiatus, I finally made the time to make
two batches of cheese over the past two weeks (a stirred-curd
cheddar and an attempt at a semi-hard sort-of Havarti with
dill; I also smoked 2/3 of the former).
   Both times, I just couldn't bear throwing out the collected
whey, so I tried both of the whey cheese (riccota) recipes in
the Carroll "Home Cheesemaking" book.  They are quite simple,
involving mostly just heating the whey to near boiling (one
with vinegar, one without), then draining through butter muslin
(I used tight-meshed cheesecloth).  One recipe said yield
should be about 1/2 pound per gallon of whey, while the other
simply said "yield is low."  Both times, I got a meager 3 to
4 tablespoons of soft cheese, in spite of adding some
extra milk or cream to help with yield.
   So my questions are, has anybody else done this, and if
so what yield did you get?  And if the yield should be
higher, what could I have done wrong to keep the yield so
low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
--
Joel Plutchak

Dear Joel,
You are right it is usually not practical to work with small amounts of whey.
Still you can improve your yield of whey proteins, or recotta cheese or KARICHI
as we call it here in Lebanon by applying this method that we follow. First of
all the whey should not be very acidic and that means the type of cheese you
are producing does not require long inoculation period with lactic starter
cultures. Heat the whey up to 185 F and add about 10 % milk (raw, fresh,
pasteurized, or recombined it does not matter) mix well and wait till the
mixture starts to boil. By now you should have dissolved one ? two
tablespoonfuls of citric acid crystals in one cup of tap warm water. Add the
citric acid and agitate vigorously then turn of the heating and leave to rest
for 10 -15 minutes. The coagulum will collect on the surface and you can
retrieve it softly by a fine mesh wire. Here we serve it either fresh and moist
with honey or sugar or pressed and marinated with 5 ? 10 % brine (salt)
solution.
Bonne Apettite!!
yours  Ziad Jaber (Beirut - Lebanon)






From zj06 at aub.edu.lb  Sun Feb 25 05:39:03 2007
From: zj06 at aub.edu.lb (Ziad D. Jaber)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:39:03 +0200
Subject: [Cheese] Whey proteins.
Message-ID: <1172399943.45e167473c36a@imail.aub.edu.lb>

Dear Joel,
You are right it is usually not practical to work with small amounts of whey.
Still you can improve your yield of whey proteins, or cottage cheese or KARICHI
as we call it here in Lebanon by applying this method that we follow. First of
all the whey should not be very acidic and that means the type of cheese you
are producing does not require long inoculation period with lactic starter
cultures. Heat the whey up to 185 F and add about 10 % milk (raw, fresh,
pasteurized, or recombined it does not matter) mix well and wait till the
mixture starts to boil. By now you should have dissolved one ? two
tablespoonfuls of citric acid crystals in one cup of tap warm water. Add the
citric acid and agitate vigorously then turn of the heating and leave to rest
for 10 -15 minutes. The coagulum will collect on the surface and you can
retrieve it softly by a fine mesh wire. Here we serve it either fresh and moist
with honey or sugar or pressed and marinated with 5 ? 10 % brine (salt)
solution.
Bonne Apettite
Yours Ziad Jaber ( Beirut Lebanon)


Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:03:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
To: cheese at hbd.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502 at badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

   After a two-year hiatus, I finally made the time to make
two batches of cheese over the past two weeks (a stirred-curd
cheddar and an attempt at a semi-hard sort-of Havarti with
dill; I also smoked 2/3 of the former).
   Both times, I just couldn't bear throwing out the collected
whey, so I tried both of the whey cheese (riccota) recipes in
the Carroll "Home Cheesemaking" book.  They are quite simple,
involving mostly just heating the whey to near boiling (one
with vinegar, one without), then draining through butter muslin
(I used tight-meshed cheesecloth).  One recipe said yield
should be about 1/2 pound per gallon of whey, while the other
simply said "yield is low."  Both times, I got a meager 3 to
4 tablespoons of soft cheese, in spite of adding some
extra milk or cream to help with yield.
   So my questions are, has anybody else done this, and if
so what yield did you get?  And if the yield should be
higher, what could I have done wrong to keep the yield so
low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
--
Joel Plutchak





From kit at kganderson.net  Sun Feb 25 09:09:31 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:09:31 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net>
	<009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net>

The problem seems to be that the buttermilk is cultured. 
http://www.sacofoods.com/culteredbuttermilkblend.html
The pH is 5.3 while milk is 6.8

Kit


From peter at naeslund.dk  Sun Feb 25 11:02:22 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:02:22 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net><009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>
	<45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> The problem seems to be that the buttermilk is cultured. 
> http://www.sacofoods.com/culteredbuttermilkblend.html
> The pH is 5.3 while milk is 6.8
> 

Hmmm... Looking at the product specs at the bottom of that page, I can tell you that its not the kind of stuff I was thinking of when mentioning buttermilk powder :-)...

I have / had the luxury of having access to a wide selection of industrial ingredients and was a bit puzzled about you being able to get buttermilk in the supermarket :-)

This is what I had in mind:
http://www.dcingredients.co.uk/downloads/dci_Buttermilk_Powder.pdf

/peter



From arf at mc.net  Sun Feb 25 15:53:24 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:53:24 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net><009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net>
	<011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E1F744.3050705@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> This is what I had in mind: 
> http://www.dcingredients.co.uk/downloads/dci_Buttermilk_Powder.pdf

Lot's of confusion here.  The cultured stuff is the only one that makes 
any claims about it's emulsifier abilities.  When you first brought this 
up I presumed that a small amount of this was used to emulsify the 
butter and then the blend added to the cheese milk.  Obviously, one can 
not make cheese with milk whose pH is already at the finished cheese level.

Assuming one could get dried non cultured (sweet) butter milk, I still 
do not see how this would emulsify butter.

We churn the cream to get the butter out and you are claiming that the 
butter can be re-emulsified and put back in.  My question is how and by 
what mechanism?

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sun Feb 25 16:25:45 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:25:45 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net><009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net><011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
	<45E1F744.3050705@mc.net>
Message-ID: <018701c75923$83068b00$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> This is what I had in mind: 
> http://www.dcingredients.co.uk/downloads/dci_Buttermilk_Powder.pdf

Lot's of confusion here.  The cultured stuff is the only one that makes 
any claims about it's emulsifier abilities.  When you first brought this 
up I presumed that a small amount of this was used to emulsify the 
butter and then the blend added to the cheese milk.  Obviously, one can 
not make cheese with milk whose pH is already at the finished cheese level.

** 

I had mentioned *uncultured* buttermilk in my idea.. The trick is that buttermilk, cultured or not, has a high contenct of lecitin left over from the smashed fat globules in the churning process..

FWIW: I have made designed icecream recipes for industrial use w. butter and buttermilk powder as the main dairy ingredients

Have also been involved in the production of thousands of tons of Feta using veggie oil emulsified by buttermilk, so I would like to think that the problem with this first experiment was due to a misunderstanding about what kind of buttermilk to get... From the looks of it, the stuff Kit had was cultured and not what I had suggested..

**

Assuming one could get dried non cultured (sweet) butter milk, I still 
do not see how this would emulsify butter.

**

The same way you managed to emulsify butter by using eggs..

**

We churn the cream to get the butter out and you are claiming that the 
butter can be re-emulsified and put back in.  My question is how and by 
what mechanism?

**

The process I have used for this is heating to ~50 deg C, mixing the molten butter or veggie oil into the milk, homogenising @ 30 BAR ( you could do this in a blender ), pasteurising and thats it.. The lecitin will stick to the fat and form fat globules once again.. The Homogenising is the key..

/peter






From arf at mc.net  Sun Feb 25 20:42:14 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:42:14 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <018701c75923$83068b00$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net><009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net><011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E1F744.3050705@mc.net>
	<018701c75923$83068b00$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E23AF6.3020606@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> The process I have used for this is heating to ~50 deg C, mixing the
> molten butter or veggie oil into the milk, homogenising @ 30 BAR (
> you could do this in a blender ), pasteurising and thats it.. The
> lecitin will stick to the fat and form fat globules once again.. The
> Homogenising is the key..

Is it possible that you are underestimating the importance of 30 Bar? 
That's about 420 psi, a non-trivial pressure.

Since the right kind of buttermilk powder might be hard to come by 
around here, perhaps you could run the experiment there with a blender 
and a small quantity just to make sure it will work in a kitchen.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From TEXASROLL at peoplepc.com  Mon Feb 26 20:26:44 2007
From: TEXASROLL at peoplepc.com (Nell Croissant)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:26:44 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7
References: <mailman.3.1158681600.1523.cheese@hbd.org>
Message-ID: <016e01c75a1b$983893d0$c6085a04@NellsToy>

If you have received any returned messages from me, my computer is back up and now running.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cheese-request at hbd.org 
  To: cheese at hbd.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 10:00 AM
  Subject: Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7


  Send Cheese mailing list submissions to
  cheese at hbd.org

  To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
  http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
  or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
  cheese-request at hbd.org

  You can reach the person managing the list at
  cheese-owner at hbd.org

  When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
  than "Re: Contents of Cheese digest..."


  Today's Topics:

     1. Re: need pointers for DIY press (Albert Ortiz)


  ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  Message: 1
  Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:42:42 -0400
  From: "Albert Ortiz" <alhiem at gmail.com>
  Subject: Re: [Cheese] need pointers for DIY press
  To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
  Message-ID:
  <1e5a81050609181942r620eab69vfcd97e55d27c7cd at mail.gmail.com>
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

  I was walking around a store once and found some small hard plastic trash
  bins.  I bought 2, filed away the small ribs it had on the inside, drilled a
  lot of small holes in one of them, and cleaned them really thorougly.  What
  i figured was thatm if pvc is not food grade ans some people use it with
  success, well two plastic well rounded tubs oughtta do the trick.  It aint
  perfect, by a long shot, but it worked until me and my dad built a very nice
  one from for fresh water pvc 8" in diamter tubing.  Just an idea.  One other
  thing you can do is go to thrifty store and check out their range of
  stoppered jars, some of them should have nice, wooden lids you can use as a
  follower, is what i did use until the two trash bins came around.

  Albert


  On 9/11/06, Patrick Mann <patrickmann at hotmail.com> wrote:
  >
  >  I've been searching the web for instructions for a simple DIY cheese
  > press. I found a few, but either I can't source all the parts or I don't
  > have the woodworking skills/tools to build it. E.g. a really well-fitting
  > follower that can withstand pressure and moisture is a problem.
  > If you have made a press using *readily available* parts, please share -
  > thanks!
  >
  >
  > ------------------------------
  > Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search Try it now!<http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG>
  >
  > _______________________________________________
  > Cheese mailing list
  > Cheese at hbd.org
  > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
  >
  >
  >
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From AlpineMkting at msn.com  Tue Feb 27 10:10:39 2007
From: AlpineMkting at msn.com (Glenn Merchant)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:10:39 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Home Made Cheese Press
Message-ID: <BAY108-DAV16A87756D5612BBA2C386DC8820@phx.gbl>

I made my cheese press from two wood cutting boards, the bottom one has about 1/2 inch rim on it so it will hold liquid. I drilled 4 holes in both in each corner, glued four 1/2 inch dowl rods in the bottom board and left the top one free to slide up and down. I use a round six inch plastic insert with holes drilled in it from an ice bucket. I cut out rounds of 2x6 to put on top, so as the cheese is being compressed you just ad another round to keep the pressure on. I stack weights from a gym set (bar bells) on top of the top board. I can use weights from 1 lb. to 100 lbs to get the results I need. I also use a dish cloth on the bottom to wick the liquid into a bowl as it is squeezed out, works great and it was cheap to make. I then set the container with the compressed cheese into the ice bucket and refrigerate it for one day to set up. The following day it pushes out and the cheese cloth is removed, ready for the next batch. It does a great job. Glenn

----- Original Message -----
From: Nell Croissant
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:41 AM
To: cheese at hbd.org
Subject: Re: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7

If you have received any returned messages from me, my computer is back up and now running.
----- Original Message -----  
From: cheese-request at hbd.org  
To: cheese at hbd.org  
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7


Send Cheese mailing list submissions to
cheese at hbd.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
cheese-request at hbd.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
cheese-owner at hbd.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Cheese digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: need pointers for DIY press (Albert Ortiz)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:42:42 -0400
From: "Albert Ortiz" <alhiem at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Cheese] need pointers for DIY press
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Message-ID:
<1e5a81050609181942r620eab69vfcd97e55d27c7cd at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I was walking around a store once and found some small hard plastic trash
bins.  I bought 2, filed away the small ribs it had on the inside, drilled a
lot of small holes in one of them, and cleaned them really thorougly.  What
i figured was thatm if pvc is not food grade ans some people use it with
success, well two plastic well rounded tubs oughtta do the trick.  It aint
perfect, by a long shot, but it worked until me and my dad built a very nice
one from for fresh water pvc 8" in diamter tubing.  Just an idea.  One other
thing you can do is go to thrifty store and check out their range of
stoppered jars, some of them should have nice, wooden lids you can use as a
follower, is what i did use until the two trash bins came around.

Albert


On 9/11/06, Patrick Mann <patrickmann at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I've been searching the web for instructions for a simple DIY cheese
> press. I found a few, but either I can't source all the parts or I don't
> have the woodworking skills/tools to build it. E.g. a really well-fitting
> follower that can withstand pressure and moisture is a problem.
> If you have made a press using *readily available* parts, please share -
> thanks!
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search Try it now!<http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
>
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Cheese at hbd.org
http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese


End of Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7
*************************************
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From alhiem at gmail.com  Fri Feb  2 13:14:27 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Fri, 2 Feb 2007 14:14:27 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Yogurt Problem
In-Reply-To: <003a01c74156$05a8f420$6601a8c0@aoldsl.net>
References: <003a01c74156$05a8f420$6601a8c0@aoldsl.net>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702021014u3d6b5c42pc2bc600df2d14950@mail.gmail.com>

Make sure the container has a label like : Live and Active Culture.
Otherwise you have dead yogurt which will not work.

albert

On 1/26/07, kathy <kathy at badgerpressinc.com> wrote:
>
>  Hello,
>
> I've tried twice to make yogurt from Greek yogurt - Fage is the brand.  It
> never seems to set.  I'm making it the same way I always do with Danon or
> the like.
>
> Any ideas?  Thanks.
>
> Kathy Dederich
>
> Badger Press, Inc.
> 1840 Industrial Dr., #100
> Libertyville, IL  60048
>
> kathy at badgerpressinc.com
> www.badgerpressinc.com
>
> 847 996.1190
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
>
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From derekbradford at gmail.com  Fri Feb 16 08:24:16 2007
From: derekbradford at gmail.com (Derek Bradford)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 22:24:16 +0900
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
Message-ID: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>

Hi All,

I've been lurking for a long time, but this is my first post.  It's
long, and for that I apologize.  I want to be specific.  In a
nutshell, I can't get a clean break; my milk won't coagulate.  I don't
know if I should be adding calcium chloride, or if I'm just doing
something else wrong entirely.  My recipes have all come from
Fankhauser's pages.

I've been making yogurt for a long time with excellent results.
My yogurt is 3.5%, made with store-bought homogenized milk, and is
very, very thick, and as smooth as it could ever be.  I make big
batches every week and they all turn out just fine.  I make labneh
with nearly every batch, and it's equally wonderful.

I've tried making two cheeses; once, feta, and it failed to produce a
feta, but did make a cream-type soft cheese that I ate for
weeks, and the second was Fankhauser's basic pound of cheese from a
gallon of milk recipe.

I have utterly failed to achieve a clean break.  I've used the freshest
milk available (it hit the shelf the day before I used it, and it's
the same milk I use for yogurt all the time.

I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.  I
used the mesophylic starter from the Grape and Granary
(http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,9888.htm).  I used 1/8tsp.
(Side note: when I made feta I used yogurt as a starter, but I believe
my milk had overacidified.  I thought using the powdered starter might
provide for a more stable experiment this time.  Bad science, changing
too many variables...I know...).  The next morning I slowly heated it to
30C, and then added my rennet.  I also use the rennet from the same
site (http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,10199.htm), and used about
1/8 of a tab, perhaps more.  I erred on more than less.  I mixed the
rennet thoroughly, but briefly, and let it sit, covered, for 1 hour,
completely undisturbed.  After one hour, I still had a pot of liquid
milk--no evidence of coagulation.

I have some calcium chloride, but I'm not sure when to add it, and
since I've had strong success with yogurt, I decided to wait until I
knew I needed it.  I'm not convinced it's absence is the source of my
problem, though.

A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
sediment on the bottom of the glass.  Could this be a significant
source of error?

Can you offer any advice?  I have been extremely sterile; I'm also a
beer and wine brewer, and I really can't see what my problem must be.

Thanks all for your help.

Cheers,
--Derek


From kit at kganderson.net  Fri Feb 16 11:12:18 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 11:12:18 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45D5D7E2.60707@kganderson.net>

I am a total newbie ... but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night.
Do you have a way to measure the pH? That would tell you if your culture 
worked. If you add citric acid or vinegar to the failed milk do you get 
a break? If you do, then the culture is the problem. If you don't, then 
the pH is too low.
Calcium chloride is added at the beginning to replace the calcium that 
was in the raw milk and is now unavailable thanks to homogenization. It 
has no effect on pH.
I use liquid rennet so miscibility and disolvability are not an issue for me
I assume you read Fankhauser's troubleshooting page?
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Fankhauser/Cheese/clean_break/Problem_getting_a_clean_break.html
So far, I have made my best cheeses from Jack Schmidling's site. 
http://schmidling.com/cheese.htm

Kit

Derek Bradford wrote:
> Hi All,
>
> I've been lurking for a long time, but this is my first post.  It's
> long, and for that I apologize.  I want to be specific.  In a
> nutshell, I can't get a clean break; my milk won't coagulate.  I don't
> know if I should be adding calcium chloride, or if I'm just doing
> something else wrong entirely.  My recipes have all come from
> Fankhauser's pages.



From arf at mc.net  Fri Feb 16 11:39:13 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 10:39:13 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>


> I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
> mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
> flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.

First of all, experimenting with ingredients when something does not 
work, is not a good idea.

Second, you did not say what kind of cheese you were trying to make but 
letting it sit over night with the starter has nothing to do with making 
a typical cheddar cheese.

> A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
> in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
> sediment on the bottom of the glass.

Use liquid rennet.


> Can you offer any advice?

Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From slaycock at discoverynet.com  Fri Feb 16 22:19:27 2007
From: slaycock at discoverynet.com (Steve Laycock)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:19:27 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
Message-ID: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>

I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
"Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
chips.  I have a dairy available to me for fresh milk and have seen several
Mexicans purchasing over 100 gallons of fresh milk to make this cheese and
supplying it to local Mexican restaurants.  I dont speak the language and
these guys were fresh out of the river with little English skills, so
getting it from them is not possible.
Thanks for helping for this novice cheese maker!
Steve




-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.



From knuckey4 at msn.com  Fri Feb 16 22:56:54 2007
From: knuckey4 at msn.com (TOM KNUCKEY)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:56:54 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV6E89C3D5BDD3E6D8B7CB095940@phx.gbl>

My two cents, for what it's worth - I've made exactly one batch of cheese, but it worked out great.  I followed the recipe from Ricci Carrol's book exactly, except that I used the powdered nonfat milk plus whipping cream that Schmidling recommends on his website.  Ricci Carrol's book has a pretty extensive discussion about milk, but Jack's website provided me a cheese milk option that I can pick up at Safeway...

I have no idea how my cheese will taste since I need to age it for six months, but it looked great.  Good luck to you.

http://schmidling.com/milk.htm<http://schmidling.com/milk.htm>




- Original Message ----- 
  From: Derek Bradford<mailto:derekbradford at gmail.com> 
  To: The Cheese Makers' Digest<mailto:cheese at hbd.org> 
  Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 5:24 AM
  Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post


  Hi All,

  I've been lurking for a long time, but this is my first post.  It's
  long, and for that I apologize.  I want to be specific.  In a
  nutshell, I can't get a clean break; my milk won't coagulate.  I don't
  know if I should be adding calcium chloride, or if I'm just doing
  something else wrong entirely.  My recipes have all come from
  Fankhauser's pages.

  I've been making yogurt for a long time with excellent results.
  My yogurt is 3.5%, made with store-bought homogenized milk, and is
  very, very thick, and as smooth as it could ever be.  I make big
  batches every week and they all turn out just fine.  I make labneh
  with nearly every batch, and it's equally wonderful.

  I've tried making two cheeses; once, feta, and it failed to produce a
  feta, but did make a cream-type soft cheese that I ate for
  weeks, and the second was Fankhauser's basic pound of cheese from a
  gallon of milk recipe.

  I have utterly failed to achieve a clean break.  I've used the freshest
  milk available (it hit the shelf the day before I used it, and it's
  the same milk I use for yogurt all the time.

  I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
  mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
  flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.  I
  used the mesophylic starter from the Grape and Granary
  (http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,9888.htm<http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,9888.htm>).  I used 1/8tsp.
  (Side note: when I made feta I used yogurt as a starter, but I believe
  my milk had overacidified.  I thought using the powdered starter might
  provide for a more stable experiment this time.  Bad science, changing
  too many variables...I know...).  The next morning I slowly heated it to
  30C, and then added my rennet.  I also use the rennet from the same
  site (http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,10199.htm<http://www.thegrape.net/browse.cfm/4,10199.htm>), and used about
  1/8 of a tab, perhaps more.  I erred on more than less.  I mixed the
  rennet thoroughly, but briefly, and let it sit, covered, for 1 hour,
  completely undisturbed.  After one hour, I still had a pot of liquid
  milk--no evidence of coagulation.

  I have some calcium chloride, but I'm not sure when to add it, and
  since I've had strong success with yogurt, I decided to wait until I
  knew I needed it.  I'm not convinced it's absence is the source of my
  problem, though.

  A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
  in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
  sediment on the bottom of the glass.  Could this be a significant
  source of error?

  Can you offer any advice?  I have been extremely sterile; I'm also a
  beer and wine brewer, and I really can't see what my problem must be.

  Thanks all for your help.

  Cheers,
  --Derek
  _______________________________________________
  Cheese mailing list
  Cheese at hbd.org<mailto:Cheese at hbd.org>
  http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese<http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese>
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From knuckey4 at msn.com  Fri Feb 16 22:45:21 2007
From: knuckey4 at msn.com (TOM KNUCKEY)
Date: Fri, 16 Feb 2007 19:45:21 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV17548669ED6885D778AE7895940@phx.gbl>

Hi Jack - I received your cheese press about a week ago, and made my first batch last Saturday (cheddar.)  I have no idea how it's going to taste, but it looked great!  Just wanted to shoot you a quick note and thank you for the press - it worked like a charm.

Have a great weekend.

Tom Knuckey
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Jack Schmidling<mailto:arf at mc.net> 
  To: The Cheese Makers' Digest<mailto:cheese at hbd.org> 
  Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:39 AM
  Subject: Re: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post



  > I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
  > mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
  > flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.

  First of all, experimenting with ingredients when something does not 
  work, is not a good idea.

  Second, you did not say what kind of cheese you were trying to make but 
  letting it sit over night with the starter has nothing to do with making 
  a typical cheddar cheese.

  > A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
  > in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
  > sediment on the bottom of the glass.

  Use liquid rennet.


  > Can you offer any advice?

  Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
  Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.

  js

  -- 
  PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm<http://schmidling.com/pow.htm>
  Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com<http://schmidling.com/>

  _______________________________________________
  Cheese mailing list
  Cheese at hbd.org<mailto:Cheese at hbd.org>
  http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese<http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese>
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From kit at kganderson.net  Sat Feb 17 09:35:36 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 09:35:36 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
In-Reply-To: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
References: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <45D712B8.1040504@kganderson.net>

You may be referring to either queso blanco 
http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/quesoblanco.htm or queso fresco 
http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/quesofresco.htm
Here is a great site about Mexican cheeses. 
http://www.mexconnect.com/mex_/recipes/puebla/kgqueso1.html
Kit

Steve Laycock wrote:
> I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
> "Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
> chips.  I have a dairy available to me for fresh milk and have seen several
> Mexicans purchasing over 100 gallons of fresh milk to make this cheese and
> supplying it to local Mexican restaurants.  I dont speak the language and
> these guys were fresh out of the river with little English skills, so
> getting it from them is not possible.
> Thanks for helping for this novice cheese maker!
> Steve
>
>
>
>
>   



From alhiem at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 10:11:22 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:11:22 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
In-Reply-To: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
References: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702170711s5cb56570qe79b995f5d06057f@mail.gmail.com>

Im not mexican, but here in puerto rico, we do a cheese called "queso de
hoja" (leaf cheese becase is wrapped in the leaves of some plant, sorry cant
remember the one at the moment) and, as far as i know, is exactly as the
"traditional" mexican "queso fresco" (fresh cheese).  This is just warmed up
milk,  vinegar or the juice of one green lemon, and salt.  Then, as you
would with a hard to be cultured cheese, you press it.  Save some of the whey
to make a brine solution.  After the curds are pressed to the desired
consistency (the harder you press it, the better for frying), dump it in the
brine.  It will keep for about a week or two.  You can go to
http://biology.clc.uc.edu/fankhauser/Cheese/Panir.html and use that recipe
as the base, then press the cheese as i mentioned.

The other kind of mexican cheese is something like a mozzarella cheese, a
string cheese, but a little harder; sadly i dont know how to make that one.

Hope this helps.

On 2/16/07, Steve Laycock <slaycock at discoverynet.com> wrote:
>
> I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
> "Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
> chips.  I have a dairy available to me for fresh milk and have seen
> several
> Mexicans purchasing over 100 gallons of fresh milk to make this cheese and
> supplying it to local Mexican restaurants.  I dont speak the language and
> these guys were fresh out of the river with little English skills, so
> getting it from them is not possible.
> Thanks for helping for this novice cheese maker!
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From alhiem at gmail.com  Sat Feb 17 10:19:57 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 11:19:57 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
In-Reply-To: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
References: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702170719g4e4ac6b0y72b697eb1b538f45@mail.gmail.com>

By the way, a good queso fresco cheese will be easy to spot.  Cut it in
chunks, about 1" or 1/2" cubes, heat up some oil and deep fry it for a few
seconds.  If it doesnt melt you have the genuine stuff.  if it melts a bit,
then it was tried to, but not quite achieved.  If fryed in olive oil, it
tastes awesome.  great snak for your get togethers.

On 2/16/07, Steve Laycock <slaycock at discoverynet.com> wrote:
>
> I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
> "Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
> chips.  I have a dairy available to me for fresh milk and have seen
> several
> Mexicans purchasing over 100 gallons of fresh milk to make this cheese and
> supplying it to local Mexican restaurants.  I dont speak the language and
> these guys were fresh out of the river with little English skills, so
> getting it from them is not possible.
> Thanks for helping for this novice cheese maker!
> Steve
>
>
>
>
> --
> This message has been scanned for viruses and
> dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
> believed to be clean.
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From tomcoll67 at msn.com  Sat Feb 17 10:45:53 2007
From: tomcoll67 at msn.com (Tom)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 10:45:53 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <BAY104-DAV17548669ED6885D778AE7895940@phx.gbl>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
	<BAY104-DAV17548669ED6885D778AE7895940@phx.gbl>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV1126E8E0F6A777C5EC9732BE940@phx.gbl>

What type of Press is it. I have a pvc one and have read it stinks. I have
not used it yet and believe that I probably wasted the money on it. What
type is recommended

Thank you,

Tom Collick

 

  _____  

From: cheese-bounces at hbd.org [mailto:cheese-bounces at hbd.org] On Behalf Of
TOM KNUCKEY
Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 10:45 PM
To: The Cheese Makers' Digest
Subject: Re: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long
Post

 

Hi Jack - I received your cheese press about a week ago, and made my first
batch last Saturday (cheddar.)  I have no idea how it's going to taste, but
it looked great!  Just wanted to shoot you a quick note and thank you for
the press - it worked like a charm.

 

Have a great weekend.

 

Tom Knuckey

----- Original Message ----- 

From: Jack <mailto:arf at mc.net>  Schmidling 

To: The <mailto:cheese at hbd.org>  Cheese Makers' Digest 

Sent: Friday, February 16, 2007 8:39 AM

Subject: Re: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long
Post

 


> I warmed the milk the night before to 20C, and let it sit, inoculated with
> mesophylic starter (and I also added some mild lipase powder for
> flavour (just the tiniest amount)), for about 15 hours at 20/21C.

First of all, experimenting with ingredients when something does not 
work, is not a good idea.

Second, you did not say what kind of cheese you were trying to make but 
letting it sit over night with the starter has nothing to do with making 
a typical cheddar cheese.

> A note about my rennet: I find that it fails to dissolve terribly well
> in the water; most does, but there is (as with last time) always some
> sediment on the bottom of the glass.

Use liquid rennet.


> Can you offer any advice?

Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com

_______________________________________________
Cheese mailing list
Cheese at hbd.org
http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese

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From rosemarygoddess at moonwiseherbs.com  Sat Feb 17 15:20:31 2007
From: rosemarygoddess at moonwiseherbs.com (Linda Conroy)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 13:20:31 -0700
Subject: [Cheese] mexican cheese, raw milk, rennet etc
Message-ID: <200702172022.l1HKKsRC019674@brew.hbd.org>

<P>Greetings. A few comments:</P>
<P>1. about the mexican&nbsp; cheese, Rikki Carrols book Home Cheese Making has a recipe for this cheese, she curdles it with vinegar. I have made it and it turns out great. </P>
<P>2. about milk; I use only farm fresh (raw) milk. The few times I have used parteurized milk, the cheese came out ok, but the curd was not as firm as the raw milk curd. Also milk from the store is not fresh, it has been through a long process before it gets to the store. </P>
<P>3. When making a hard cheese you would not let the culture sit in the milk for 15 hours, I have not seen a recipe that calls for this kind of time frame. If you want to make hard cheese again I would get Rikki Carrol's book Home Cheese Making-her recipes in my opinion are the most reliable for beginning cheese makers. The one thing I ignore in her book, is pasteurizing the milk, so I leave out the calcium choloride.</P>
<P>4. Rennet, I too would suggest using liquid rennet I find it much more reliable. </P>
<P>5. On my website <A href="http://www.moonwiseherbs.com">www.moonwiseherbs.com</A> I have a simple cheese page, I talk about raw milk, and also offer a simple farmers cheese recipe, which I find very simple to make. It is a fresh cheese, similar to the Mexican cheese, but you use rennet instead of vinegar.</P>
<P>6. Also I have Jack's cheese press and while the press itself it great, I purchased a different mold, which has holes in it. I use this mold with his press and that works best for me. (no offense Jack, I am sure it works fine for others the way it is, but I prefer it this way)</P>
<P>Hope that is helpful.</P>
<P>Linda</P>
<P>&nbsp;</P>

Blessings,
Linda
www.moonwiseherbs.com

Communication is to relationship what breath is to life. -Virginia Satir


From ed124ch at yahoo.com  Sun Feb 18 04:40:33 2007
From: ed124ch at yahoo.com (Walt)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 01:40:33 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
Message-ID: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?

I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it. 

They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very expensive.

Thanks for all the help,
B

 
---------------------------------
Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! Answers.
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From scott at waldetech.ca  Sat Feb 17 09:50:23 2007
From: scott at waldetech.ca (Scott Walde)
Date: Sat, 17 Feb 2007 08:50:23 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Mexican style soft white cheese
In-Reply-To: <45D712B8.1040504@kganderson.net>
References: <001b01c75242$704d9400$0cbc59d8@oemcomputer>
	<45D712B8.1040504@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <45D7162F.10904@waldetech.ca>

Rikki Carroll's book "Home Cheese Making" has recipes for Queso Blanco 
and Queso Fresco.  I've made the Queso Fresco and was very happy with it.

ttyl
srw


Kit Anderson wrote:
> You may be referring to either queso blanco 
>   

> Steve Laycock wrote:
>   
>> I have looked through several books and have not found a recipe for this
>> "Mexican" style white cheese that the restaurants serve with the tortilla
>>     




From tomcoll67 at msn.com  Sun Feb 18 14:46:32 2007
From: tomcoll67 at msn.com (Tom)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:46:32 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
In-Reply-To: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <BAY104-DAV1411B3957C060687CCAE3BE8B0@phx.gbl>

rennet  /r'?n?t/
 
??? 4 ??? [rennet] ??? (??????????????????)






????(1): pydict data [pydict]






   <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/rennet> rennet
  ( <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/a> a.)?????;???;????
 
????(2): Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) [web1913]






   <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/Rennet> Rennet \Ren"net\,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/n> n. [ <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/AS> AS.  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/rinnan> rinnan,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/rennan> rennan,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/to> to  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/run> run,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/cf> cf.  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/gerinnan> gerinnan
      <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/to> to  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/curdle> curdle,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/coagulate> coagulate. [ <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/root> root] <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/11> 11.  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/See> See { <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/Run> Run},  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/v> v.]
      <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/The> The  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/inner> inner,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/or> or  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/mucous> mucous,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/membrane> membrane  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/of> of  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/the> the  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/fourth> fourth  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/stomach> stomach  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/of> of  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/the> the
      <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/calf> calf,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/or> or  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/other> other  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/young> young  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/ruminant> ruminant;  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/also> also,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/an> an  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/infusion> infusion  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/or> or
      <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/preparation> preparation  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/of> of  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/it> it,  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/used> used  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/for> for  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/coagulating> coagulating  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/milk> milk. [ <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/Written> Written  <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/also> also
     { <http://cdict.giga.net.tw/q/runnet> runnet}.]

 

 

  _____  

From: cheese-bounces at hbd.org [mailto:cheese-bounces at hbd.org] On Behalf Of Walt
Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 4:41 AM
To: cheese at hbd.org
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet

 

Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?

I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it. 

They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very expensive.

Thanks for all the help,
B

  

  _____  

Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your question on Yahoo! <http://answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx>  Answers.

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From scott at saskatoon.com  Sun Feb 18 15:22:14 2007
From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 14:22:14 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
In-Reply-To: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <45D8B576.20305@saskatoon.com>

Walt wrote:
> Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?
>
Honestly, you'd probably be best off trying to import some rennet 
powder.  But, if you really want to make it yourself, visit a butcher 
and obtain the fourth stomach from a young calf.  There are a few ways 
to prepare this stomach including drying it out and grinding it into a 
powder, or simply keeping the stomach in a bottle of wine.  The wine 
will become an infusion that can be used to curdle milk.  Of course, you 
will have to experiment with quantities, as you will have no idea how 
strong the infusion is.

I'm not sure what shipping would be like for you, but I have ordered 
Valiren in reasonable quantities from Danlac: 
http://www.danlac.com/store/index.asp?category=3

ttyl
srw



From tim at twocentavos.com  Sun Feb 18 17:42:14 2007
From: tim at twocentavos.com (Tim Straight)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 06:42:14 +0800
Subject: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 16,
	Issue 5 -- Finding Rennet and Cultures
In-Reply-To: <mailman.7.1171818001.29813.cheese@hbd.org>
References: <mailman.7.1171818001.29813.cheese@hbd.org>
Message-ID: <45D8D646.4080107@twocentavos.com>

I live in the Philippines and I have a similar problem to Walt's: cheese 
isn't eaten much here in this country - I cannot find rennet or cheese 
cultures here and I haven't been able to find a source in the U.S. that 
ships to the Philippines or Asia. Can anyone help?

Regards,

Tim <tim at twocentavos.com>

***********************************************

Walt <ed124ch at yahoo.com> wrote:

>Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?
>
>I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it. 
>
>They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very expensive.
>  
>


From arf at mc.net  Sun Feb 18 18:43:16 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sun, 18 Feb 2007 17:43:16 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Finding Rennet and Cultures
In-Reply-To: <45D8D646.4080107@twocentavos.com>
References: <mailman.7.1171818001.29813.cheese@hbd.org>
	<45D8D646.4080107@twocentavos.com>
Message-ID: <45D8E494.6070502@mc.net>

Tim Straight wrote:
> I live in the Philippines and I have a similar problem to Walt's: cheese 
> isn't eaten much here in this country - I cannot find rennet or cheese 
> cultures here and I haven't been able to find a source in the U.S. that 
> ships to the Philippines or Asia. Can anyone help?

I don't make a habit of promoting suppliers but as you are having 
problems, I would suggest grapeandgranary.com  I can't imagine why 
anyone would not ship to anywhere if you are willing to pay the postage. 
  They ship our stuff all over the world.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From derekbradford at gmail.com  Mon Feb 19 08:47:11 2007
From: derekbradford at gmail.com (Derek Bradford)
Date: Mon, 19 Feb 2007 22:47:11 +0900
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
Message-ID: <799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>

> > Can you offer any advice?
>
> Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
> Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.
>

I just finished a batch of cheese.  I got a clean break this time.  I
was truly unscientific, however, and have not technically pinpointed
the problem I was having.

I combined yours (Jack) and David's recipes for a basic pound of
cheese from a gallon of milk.  I did that because I'd already bought
the gallon of milk and had no other pressing use for it.  Jack's
recipe called for pasteurizing and then cooling to 86 degrees; I
skipped the pasteurization and warmed my milk to 86.  David's called
for an overnight inoculation rest; Jack's called for an hour.  I went
with an hour, following the suggestion that perhaps my ph was off; if
so, a shorter rest might fix that problem.  I also added calcium
chloride to the warmed milk.  Following inoculation (yogurt), I added
the rennet, and after 3 hours I had a clean break (due to the
thermophylic instead of mesophylic starter).

Thanks for the help!
--Derek


From peter at naeslund.dk  Tue Feb 20 09:49:26 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 15:49:26 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
Message-ID: <008d01c754fe$51709eb0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


  Hi.. I am new here ( will post an intro later on )..

  It may be helpful if you know the name of the enzyme in rennet.. The name you are looking for is Chymosin..

  The rennet we use at the dayjob is manufactured to our specifications, but we do use some commercially available products, that you should be able to source in China..
  One of these is Hannilase, available from Christian Hansen..

  You might want to email either Christian Hansen or Danisco for suggestions for local sources of rennet.. 

  http://www.chr-hansen.com/ 
  http://www.danisco.com

  Both of these companies have a presence in China and are usually generous when it comes to samples..

  /peter
    ----- Original Message ----- 
    From: Walt 
    To: cheese at hbd.org 
    Sent: Sunday, February 18, 2007 10:40 AM
    Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet


    Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?

    I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it. 

    They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very expensive.

    Thanks for all the help,
    B



----------------------------------------------------------------------------
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From michael.brandt1 at verizon.net  Tue Feb 20 13:17:13 2007
From: michael.brandt1 at verizon.net (michael brandt)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 10:17:13 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
Message-ID: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>

    Hi,  I've been reading and learning a lot from this forum thank 
you!  I have a question about a blue cheese that I made  days ago.  I 
followed Dr. Frankhausers procedure for making blue cheese.  The cheese 
has developed a very nice bloom and rind,  much like in the I have to 
taste that cheese picture on his web page.  A recent development has me 
worried however, the wheel has started to develop small cracks on the 
sides.  Should I worry about this and take action?  Should I not worry 
about it, it is normal for the cheese to crack?  Should I immediately 
hide in my shop eat it?

Thanks in advance!
Michael Brandt

P.S.  I leaning toward the later!!



From dean_crabtree_1958 at yahoo.com  Tue Feb 20 14:13:36 2007
From: dean_crabtree_1958 at yahoo.com (dean crabtree)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 11:13:36 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <20070220191336.64827.qmail@web36215.mail.mud.yahoo.com>

Your humidity is probably too low, and is causing the wheel to crack.  Keep it wrapped with toweling during the early days.
   
  HTH,
   
  dc
   
  ps.  also look at http://www.sicklesmarket.com/Gourmet20%Club/Items%20Archives/Stilton$20Cheese.htm ,
  http://www.colstonbassettdairy.com/ourcheeses.html and http://users.crocker.com_~jwallace/Cheese/Stilton/Stilton.html for other hints on this, the greatest of the cheeses.



 
---------------------------------
Finding fabulous fares is fun.
Let Yahoo! FareChase search your favorite travel sites to find flight and hotel bargains.
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From alhiem at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 16:16:28 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:16:28 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
References: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>

to keep humidity high, super important with this type of cheese, add an open
container, flat and long for prefferance, filled with water at the bottom of
the fridge.  temp is also very important.  A temp that is to low wont let
the friendly fungus to grow nicely.  Dr. F has a lot of info.  there is one
link in his site that will send you to a friend of his.  This man does a
very nice blue too.  Worth to check out.
To quote http://schmidling.com/cres.htm#stilton

To ripen the cheese, it should be in a cool and humid environment. A plastic
shoe box with the lid on will maintian about 95% humidity with the cheese
inside. For the first month or so, it wants to be around 60F.

I hope it turns out alright, i love blue and it would be shame for it to go
to waste.  Good luck!!!
On 2/20/07, michael brandt <michael.brandt1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>    Hi,  I've been reading and learning a lot from this forum thank
> you!  I have a question about a blue cheese that I made  days ago.  I
> followed Dr. Frankhausers procedure for making blue cheese.  The cheese
> has developed a very nice bloom and rind,  much like in the I have to
> taste that cheese picture on his web page.  A recent development has me
> worried however, the wheel has started to develop small cracks on the
> sides.  Should I worry about this and take action?  Should I not worry
> about it, it is normal for the cheese to crack?  Should I immediately
> hide in my shop eat it?
>
> Thanks in advance!
> Michael Brandt
>
> P.S.  I leaning toward the later!!
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From alhiem at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 16:22:32 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:22:32 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] how to make rennet
In-Reply-To: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
References: <545380.93555.qm@web30302.mail.mud.yahoo.com>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702201322ge6fb5eeu4308005c025f74d2@mail.gmail.com>

If you can, drop a query on wikipedia.  As far as i can remember (reading)
you need the 4th stomach of a young calf.  You dry the thing and use it as a
base.  You grind it and stirr it up with water.  The actual concentration
will vary.  There are plants that produce a substance similar to what you
get from animal stomachs.  Wikipedia has more info.
To quote wikipedia:
Vegetable rennet

Many plants have coagulating properties. Some examples include fig
tree<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fig_tree>bark,
nettles <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nettles>,
thistles<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thistle>,
mallow <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mallow>, and Creeping
Charlie<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Creeping_Charlie>.
Rennet from thistle or *cynara <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cynara>* is
used in some traditional cheese production in the
Mediterranean<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediterranean>
.

These real vegetable rennets are also suitable for
vegetarians<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vegetarian>.
Vegetable rennet might be used in the production of
kosher<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kosher_foods>cheeses but nearly
all kosher cheeses are produced with either microbial
rennet or GM rennet. Worldwide there is also no industrial production for
vegetable rennet. Commercial so-called vegetable rennets usually contain
rennet from the mold <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mold> *Mucor miehei* -
see microbial rennet below.

Saludos,
On 2/18/07, Walt <ed124ch at yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> Can anyone tell me how to make rennet?
>
> I am currently living in China and I cannot find it here. I know they must
> have it somewhere, but I don't even know the Chinese word for it.
>
> They don't eat a lot of cheese here and the imported varieties are very
> expensive.
>
> Thanks for all the help,
> B
>
> ------------------------------
> Need a quick answer? Get one in minutes from people who know. Ask your
> question on Yahoo! Answers<http://answers.yahoo.com/;_ylc=X3oDMTFvbGNhMGE3BF9TAzM5NjU0NTEwOARfcwMzOTY1NDUxMDMEc2VjA21haWxfdGFnbGluZQRzbGsDbWFpbF90YWcx>.
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
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From alhiem at gmail.com  Tue Feb 20 16:42:00 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 17:42:00 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Clean break/coagulation problem -- Warning -- Long Post
In-Reply-To: <799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com>
	<45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net>
	<799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com>

Dr. F fails to make a prominent note of the fact that ALL his milk is
homegrown.  He does not need calcium chloride.  As both Jack and Dr. F
stress, clean stuff is a must.  Temp is a major factor.  Dr. calls for an
overnight rippening because, i suspect, he lives way up north, cold country.
Here in Puerto Rico (hot tropical zone), i've had very good results using
cultured yogurt.  The messo starters have given me mixed results.  The best
ones were when i stood by my milk/cheese ALL the time.  Heating was done by
placing the container in a bath of boiling water in the sink, adding hot and
cold water to maintain almost 83 degrees all the time.  When my milk finally
reached that temp i added the cacl and after a few seconds of light
stirring, the innoculate.  In those cases, 4oz of yogurt mixed with 1 oz of
warm milk.  Left it to acidify for, i think, two hours on average, added
rennet (pill, junkjet, the same that Dr. F uses) and finnaly to curdle in
the same bath for some 2-3 hours.  Had the most beutifull cheese i had made
so far.  We could not wait and it was eaten within the week.  Note that i
never mentioned pasteurization.  My milk is store bought.  I wish i had a
fresh source.

Adding to little or too much af any of the ingredients can cause serious
problems.  There is no such thing as too much cleaning tho.  Both Jacks and
Dr. F. recepies have worked for me.  And for both, do as they say (and add
cacl to Dr. F's recepies), don't stray, don't improvise until you get the
hang of it.  Mrs. Carrol's book is very educational.

Saludos,

albert


On 2/19/07, Derek Bradford <derekbradford at gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > > Can you offer any advice?
> >
> > Ponder my basic cheese process and see how it varies from what you did.
> > Try it and if that does not work, get back to us.
> >
>
> I just finished a batch of cheese.  I got a clean break this time.  I
> was truly unscientific, however, and have not technically pinpointed
> the problem I was having.
>
> I combined yours (Jack) and David's recipes for a basic pound of
> cheese from a gallon of milk.  I did that because I'd already bought
> the gallon of milk and had no other pressing use for it.  Jack's
> recipe called for pasteurizing and then cooling to 86 degrees; I
> skipped the pasteurization and warmed my milk to 86.  David's called
> for an overnight inoculation rest; Jack's called for an hour.  I went
> with an hour, following the suggestion that perhaps my ph was off; if
> so, a shorter rest might fix that problem.  I also added calcium
> chloride to the warmed milk.  Following inoculation (yogurt), I added
> the rennet, and after 3 hours I had a clean break (due to the
> thermophylic instead of mesophylic starter).
>
> Thanks for the help!
> --Derek
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From peter at naeslund.dk  Tue Feb 20 18:30:51 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 00:30:51 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>
	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>

First off: Jack Schmidling invited me to join this list after a short discussion about making cheese from recombined milk..

Bit of background:

I work for one of the largest dairy co-operatives in northern Europe.. The facility I work at makes semihard yellow cheese ( Edam/Gouda types ) from approx. 550 tons of milk per day. I also do a fair bit of concert sound reinforcement and audiovisual work, but thats probably not on topic here :-)

I came across Jack Schmidlings website about making cheese milk from milk powder, water and butter, and while the idea itself is sound I am not overly exited about using raw egg yolk as an emulsifier in something like cheese, where Salmonella etc. have very good growth conditions, so I suggested a trick we used for Feta cheese..

I dont know anything about your background in dairy technology, organic and protein chemistry, so I will make a brief explanation of the things involved first:

Milk fat is enclosed in a shell of phosforlipids that keeps the fat contained. One end of the shell molecules can stick to water, and the other can stick to fat - this is what emulsifiers ( and soap products ) are all about. 

When churning butter, you basically smash the shell on some of the fat globules releasing the fat.. The free fat sticks to the fat globules and basically glues them together. The surplus of phosforlipids is discharged with the buttermilk, wich ends up containing around 0.1% Lecitin ( the primary fat globule shell material )

On with the experiment:
I used to work at a place that made Feta style cheese w. vegetable fat instead of milk fat.

We usually mixed the milk in 100 ton batches, typically using around 20 tons of buttermilk + 3,5 tons of veggie oil and 76.5 tons of nearly fat free skimmed milk. 

The buttermilk was not from cultured butter and was close to free as it was a byproduct that would have been sold as animal feed if we hadnt used it..

Now.. We had to homogenise the milk very lightly ( you normally dont do that for regular yellow cheese ) in order to keep the fat in its emulsion. This was mainly because we sometimes stored the milk for ~48 hrs before using..

I have adapted the idea of using buttermilk as an emulsifier to icecream production ( industrial scale ) and managed to eliminate the use of emulsifiers completely..

I am guessing this should work in cheese production aswell, so if someone could try substituting regular skimmed milk powder for buttermilk powder, you should be able to get the fat dissolved in the milk without problems.

Buttermilk powder should be available at the places that also sell you 50 lbs bags of skimmed or whole milk powder.

I'd have loved to conduct a series of experiments, but we cant make cheese from anything less than 16 tons of milk at a time here, and obtaining fresh, uncultured buttermilk in those quantities would mean sending a truck on a 250 mile detour :-) Besides.. If we need milk at the dayjob we just call the head office and order a couple of transfer-loads from one of the other facilities..

Anyone care to try the experiment?
Questions ?
Comments?

/peter

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From kit at kganderson.net  Tue Feb 20 20:58:40 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 20:58:40 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com>
	<012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net>

I assume that this is considering a recipe using powdered skim milk and 
milk fat so that you don't have to use homogenized milk. Is that right?
Powdered buttermilk is readily available in grocery stores. I use it as 
an ingredient in baking for its flavor. Reconstituted, it doesn't taste 
like buttermilk to me. So, I am not sure that as the main ingredient it 
would work. I think that one could used it in a small amount for its 
emulsifying properties. One could take Jack's recipe for mozzarella and 
add a little buttermilk powder at a time until  it looks like the fat is 
no longer separated.

The reason for doing this is to keep the calcium that homogenization 
makes unavailable. Is that correct? If so, then I wonder what effect the 
process of making powered milk has on the calcium.

Kit

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:
> I am guessing this should work in cheese production aswell, so if 
> someone could try substituting regular skimmed milk powder for 
> buttermilk powder, you should be able to get the fat dissolved in the 
> milk without problems.
>  
> Buttermilk powder should be available at the places that also sell you 
> 50 lbs bags of skimmed or whole milk powder.
>  
>  
> Anyone care to try the experiment?
> Questions ?
> Comments?
>  
> /peter



From peter at naeslund.dk  Tue Feb 20 22:47:51 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 04:47:51 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 2:58 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


I assume that this is considering a recipe using powdered skim milk and 
milk fat so that you don't have to use homogenized milk. Is that right?

****

No, The idea is to avoid using raw egg products in something that already poses a risk..

( The eggyolk acts as an emulsifier - in both icecream and Jacks recombined milk recipe )..

You should avoid using homogenised milk for cheese for several reasons

****
Powdered buttermilk is readily available in grocery stores. I use it as 
an ingredient in baking for its flavor. Reconstituted, it doesn't taste 
like buttermilk to me. So, I am not sure that as the main ingredient it 
would work. 
****

It doesnt taste like buttermilk because the buttermilk you buy is cultured - the powdered stuff is not cultured.. It would cause lots of "fun" problems if you tried to process cultured buttermilk to powder..


****


I think that one could used it in a small amount for its 
emulsifying properties. One could take Jack's recipe for mozzarella and 
add a little buttermilk powder at a time until  it looks like the fat is 
no longer separated.

****

The idea is that the buttermilk contains a natural emulsifier that shouldnt interfere with the rest of the cheese making process.. The eggyolk does the same, but is a bit risky

****

The reason for doing this is to keep the calcium that homogenization 
makes unavailable. Is that correct? If so, then I wonder what effect the 
process of making powered milk has on the calcium.

****

Homogenising doesnt mess with the Calcium afaik, but the pasteurising process normally used for drinking grade milk does..

The homogenising can cause problems when it comes to getting the water out of the cheese, as the smaller fat globules tend to clog up the protein grid formed during the coagulation

/peter

> I am guessing this should work in cheese production aswell, so if 
> someone could try substituting regular skimmed milk powder for 
> buttermilk powder, you should be able to get the fat dissolved in the 
> milk without problems.
>  
> Buttermilk powder should be available at the places that also sell you 
> 50 lbs bags of skimmed or whole milk powder.
>  
>  
> Anyone care to try the experiment?
> Questions ?
> Comments?
>  
> /peter

_______________________________________________
Cheese mailing list
Cheese at hbd.org
http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese




From michael.brandt1 at verizon.net  Wed Feb 21 00:17:07 2007
From: michael.brandt1 at verizon.net (michael brandt)
Date: Tue, 20 Feb 2007 21:17:07 -0800
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
	<1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45DBD5D3.9000108@verizon.net>

    First of all, thank you!  Do you think it would be best to just eat 
it now, or try to increase the humidity int the fridge/Albert Ortiz wrote:
> to keep humidity high, super important with this type of cheese, add 
> an open container, flat and long for prefferance, filled with water at 
> the bottom of the fridge.  temp is also very important.  A temp that 
> is to low wont let the friendly fungus to grow nicely.  Dr. F has a 
> lot of info.  there is one link in his site that will send you to a 
> friend of his.  This man does a very nice blue too.  Worth to check 
> out.  
> To quote http://schmidling.com/cres.htm#stilton
>
> To ripen the cheese, it should be in a cool and humid environment. A 
> plastic shoe box with the lid on will maintian about 95% humidity with 
> the cheese inside. For the first month or so, it wants to be around 60F.
>
> I hope it turns out alright, i love blue and it would be shame for it 
> to go to waste.  Good luck!!!
>
> On 2/20/07, *michael brandt* <michael.brandt1 at verizon.net 
> <mailto:michael.brandt1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
>
>        Hi,  I've been reading and learning a lot from this forum thank
>     you!  I have a question about a blue cheese that I made  days ago.  I
>     followed Dr. Frankhausers procedure for making blue cheese.  The
>     cheese
>     has developed a very nice bloom and rind,  much like in the I have to
>     taste that cheese picture on his web page.  A recent development
>     has me
>     worried however, the wheel has started to develop small cracks on the
>     sides.  Should I worry about this and take action?  Should I not worry
>     about it, it is normal for the cheese to crack?  Should I immediately
>     hide in my shop eat it?
>
>     Thanks in advance!
>     Michael Brandt
>
>     P.S.  I leaning toward the later!!
>
>     _______________________________________________
>     Cheese mailing list
>     Cheese at hbd.org <mailto:Cheese at hbd.org>
>     http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>   



From kit at kganderson.net  Wed Feb 21 12:15:53 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:15:53 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net>
	<014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net>

>
> The idea is that the buttermilk contains a natural emulsifier that shouldnt interfere with the rest of the cheese making process.. The eggyolk does the same, but is a bit risky


Interesting. Are eggs used in cheese making? If the concern is health, 
then it is possible to pasteurize the yolks without setting them. Is 
there a preparation of phospholipids that could be used in place of eggs 
or buttermilk?

Kit


From plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Wed Feb 21 13:03:52 2007
From: plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:03:52 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
In-Reply-To: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>
References: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>

   After a two-year hiatus, I finally made the time to make
two batches of cheese over the past two weeks (a stirred-curd
cheddar and an attempt at a semi-hard sort-of Havarti with
dill; I also smoked 2/3 of the former).
   Both times, I just couldn't bear throwing out the collected
whey, so I tried both of the whey cheese (riccota) recipes in
the Carroll "Home Cheesemaking" book.  They are quite simple,
involving mostly just heating the whey to near boiling (one
with vinegar, one without), then draining through butter muslin
(I used tight-meshed cheesecloth).  One recipe said yield
should be about 1/2 pound per gallon of whey, while the other
simply said "yield is low."  Both times, I got a meager 3 to
4 tablespoons of soft cheese, in spite of adding some
extra milk or cream to help with yield.
   So my questions are, has anybody else done this, and if
so what yield did you get?  And if the yield should be
higher, what could I have done wrong to keep the yield so
low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
-- 
Joel Plutchak


From peter at naeslund.dk  Wed Feb 21 17:36:04 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 23:36:04 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Wednesday, February 21, 2007 6:15 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> >
> > The idea is that the buttermilk contains a natural emulsifier that shouldnt interfere with the rest of the cheese making process.. The eggyolk does the same, but is a bit risky
> 
> 
> Interesting. Are eggs used in cheese making? 

Not traditionally, but Jack Schmidling suggests using eggs as an emulsifier...

>If the concern is health, 
> then it is possible to pasteurize the yolks without setting them. 

It is health concerns, but also the idea... While it most definately works, I would feel better about having a product that contained just milk, rennet, starter culture and salt..

>Is 
> there a preparation of phospholipids that could be used in place of eggs 
> or buttermilk?

Almost any emulsifier will do the trick, but looking at it from a health-nuts POV, you will be adding *bad* stuff to your cheese like GM products, synthetisized chemicals etc., so from all sides, the buttermilk looks like the ideal solution..


/peter



From kit at kganderson.net  Wed Feb 21 21:42:03 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 21:42:03 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net>
	<009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net>

Health food nuts. Gotta love them. "Our ions are better than your ions." 
You are right about the marketing aspect.
So, you are suggesting to try replacing some of the powdered milk with 
just enough powdered buttermilk to emulsify the the added fat. Is that 
correct?
Kit
> Almost any emulsifier will do the trick, but looking at it from a health-nuts POV, you will be adding *bad* stuff to your cheese like GM products, synthetisized chemicals etc., so from all sides, the buttermilk looks like the ideal solution..
>
>
> /peter
>   



From peter at naeslund.dk  Wed Feb 21 21:59:38 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 03:59:38 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 3:42 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> Health food nuts. Gotta love them. "Our ions are better than your ions." 

Well... thats a matter of opinion.. Personally I dont care too much, but if I can make a given product without additives without huge problems, I will..


> You are right about the marketing aspect.
> So, you are suggesting to try replacing some of the powdered milk with 
> just enough powdered buttermilk to emulsify the the added fat. Is that 
> correct?

I am suggesting replacing all the skimmed milk powder with buttermilk powder, just to see if there are any negative effects during the ripening, but a 60/40 mix might work well too.. It would take a few experiments to get it right, but IMO, the idea is sound..

Imagine serving your homemade cheese to guests and they ask how you made it.. Imagine the puzzled look on their faces when you tell them you put eggs in it.. It just doesnt belong there :-)

/peter
> Kit
> > Almost any emulsifier will do the trick, but looking at it from a health-nuts POV, you will be adding *bad* stuff to your cheese like GM products, synthetisized chemicals etc., so from all sides, the buttermilk looks like the ideal solution..
> >
> >
> > /peter
> >   
> 
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> 



From arf at mc.net  Wed Feb 21 19:53:36 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 18:53:36 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
In-Reply-To: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
References: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <45DCE990.1000602@mc.net>

Joel Plutchak wrote:

> So my questions are, has anybody else done this, and if
> so what yield did you get?  And if the yield should be
> higher, what could I have done wrong to keep the yield so
> low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
> it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.

I think we all come to that conclusion after just one attempt at 
"salvaging" the whey.

To get any decent yield out of a "whey" cheese you need to use equal 
parts of whole milk so it is a loser for the small producer.

Furthermore, and I am too lazy to look up the details, but something 
happens to the whey if it sit too long and so it must be used within 
hours.  This means that one has to make two batches of cheese in series 
on the same day which makes for a very long day and for what?

You can boil the whey down and make those Scandinavian "cheeses" but the 
energy required makes it a real loser unless you just want that kind of 
cheese.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com




From arf at mc.net  Wed Feb 21 20:07:04 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 19:07:04 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net>
	<009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DCECB8.50907@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> Not traditionally, but Jack Schmidling suggests using eggs as an
> emulsifier...

For the record, this is the footnote on my milk page....
...............

N.B. The dry and butter I extrapolated from a smaller batch in which I 
actually used an egg yolk to emulsify the butter in a quart of the milk. 
The lecithin works just as well and removes the potential risk of using 
raw egg.

........

One can get a lifetime supply of liquid lecithin from healthfood stores 
for a few dollars around here.

The only problem with the stuff is that it is hideously sticky and messy 
to work with.  Just cleaning the measuring spoon is a major project.  It 
seems to be soluble only in dynamite.

We happen to raise chickens and have some degree of confidence in their 
health.  It also happens to be rather easy to Pasteurize egg yolks 
without effecting the emulsifying power.  This is done routinely when 
making sauce mayonnaise at home.  If you just bring the yolks to 150F 
and cool immediately, you will kill Salmonella and not set the egg.  Too 
much trouble but it can be done.

I really like the idea of the powdered buttermilk though.  It avoids all 
these other issues.

js


-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com




From arf at mc.net  Wed Feb 21 23:52:19 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 22:52:19 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net>
	<00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> I am suggesting replacing all the skimmed milk powder with buttermilk
> powder, just to see if there are any negative effects........

One negative effect could be the price.  I suspect dried buttermilk 
would be much more expensive than NF Dry Milk.

Just for reality check here, the whole point of this is that butter is 
not only much less expensive than the equivalent in heavy cream but it's 
shelf life is nearly as long as powdered milk.  With dry milk and 
butter, one can make cheese when the whim occurs without having to make 
a trip to town to get fresh stuff.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Thu Feb 22 03:13:57 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 09:13:57 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>
Message-ID: <00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
........

One negative effect could be the price.  I suspect dried buttermilk 
would be much more expensive than NF Dry Milk.

**

I can only speak for the price of the fresh, uncultured buttermilk and fresh skimmed milk from the farmer.. I believe we pay around 0.29 DKK ( around 4 US cents ) per litre of uncultured buttermilk, while we pay around 3 times as much for skimmed milk ..

Ofcourse those prices may well be different in small quantities..

/peter



From scott at saskatoon.com  Thu Feb 22 08:44:38 2007
From: scott at saskatoon.com (Scott Walde)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 07:44:38 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
In-Reply-To: <45DCE990.1000602@mc.net>
References: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
	<45DCE990.1000602@mc.net>
Message-ID: <45DD9E46.3040009@saskatoon.com>

One alternative to dumping your whey down the drain is to find someone 
who is experimenting with biobutanol production.  Apparently whey is a 
good source of food for the ABE bacteria used in this process.  For more 
information see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biogasoline/

ttyl
srw

Jack Schmidling wrote:
> Joel Plutchak wrote:
>  
>> low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
>> it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
>>     
>
> I think we all come to that conclusion after just one attempt at 
> "salvaging" the whey.
>
> To get any decent yield out of a "whey" cheese you need to use equal 
> parts of whole milk so it is a loser for the small producer.
>   


From peter at naeslund.dk  Thu Feb 22 10:43:17 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 16:43:17 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
References: <mailman.3.1172077201.12281.cheese@hbd.org>	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu><45DCE990.1000602@mc.net>
	<45DD9E46.3040009@saskatoon.com>
Message-ID: <013e01c75698$2dfef5d0$0701a8c0@tissemand>

The lactose in the whey is great bacteria food..  The local sewage processing plant usually gets around 40 tons of whey per day to keep their bacteria alive.. They had been having problems since both the slaughterhouse and bisquit factory in town closed..

/peter
----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Scott Walde" <scott at saskatoon.com>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:44 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions


> One alternative to dumping your whey down the drain is to find someone 
> who is experimenting with biobutanol production.  Apparently whey is a 
> good source of food for the ABE bacteria used in this process.  For more 
> information see http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biogasoline/
> 
> ttyl
> srw
> 
> Jack Schmidling wrote:
> > Joel Plutchak wrote:
> >  
> >> low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
> >> it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
> >>     
> >
> > I think we all come to that conclusion after just one attempt at 
> > "salvaging" the whey.
> >
> > To get any decent yield out of a "whey" cheese you need to use equal 
> > parts of whole milk so it is a loser for the small producer.
> >   
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> 



From alhiem at gmail.com  Thu Feb 22 10:50:50 2007
From: alhiem at gmail.com (Albert Ortiz)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 11:50:50 -0400
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <45DBD5D3.9000108@verizon.net>
References: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>
	<1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>
	<45DBD5D3.9000108@verizon.net>
Message-ID: <1e5a81050702220750k4405f6e3qacb826b93e99f450@mail.gmail.com>

First of all

God my English, in the last mail, was awful!



If you can keep it from getting dryer, then wait.  Watch it like a hawk, if
you see it getting dryer and dryer, eat it.  Low moisture will prevent the
mold's growth somewhat but having no ventilation will definitely prevent
growth.  So having a few cracks could actually be good; if the mold is able
to take hold of those areas, the better.  At the very least, you can end up
with a blue with a consistency of Gorgonzola, hard, crumbly and utterly
delicious.  Blues are better, as with most cheeses, aged.

saludos,

albert

On 2/21/07, michael brandt <michael.brandt1 at verizon.net> wrote:
>
>    First of all, thank you!  Do you think it would be best to just eat
> it now, or try to increase the humidity int the fridge/Albert Ortiz wrote:
> > to keep humidity high, super important with this type of cheese, add
> > an open container, flat and long for prefferance, filled with water at
> > the bottom of the fridge.  temp is also very important.  A temp that
> > is to low wont let the friendly fungus to grow nicely.  Dr. F has a
> > lot of info.  there is one link in his site that will send you to a
> > friend of his.  This man does a very nice blue too.  Worth to check
> > out.
> > To quote http://schmidling.com/cres.htm#stilton
> >
> > To ripen the cheese, it should be in a cool and humid environment. A
> > plastic shoe box with the lid on will maintian about 95% humidity with
> > the cheese inside. For the first month or so, it wants to be around 60F.
> >
> > I hope it turns out alright, i love blue and it would be shame for it
> > to go to waste.  Good luck!!!
> >
> > On 2/20/07, *michael brandt* <michael.brandt1 at verizon.net
> > <mailto:michael.brandt1 at verizon.net>> wrote:
> >
> >        Hi,  I've been reading and learning a lot from this forum thank
> >     you!  I have a question about a blue cheese that I made  days
> ago.  I
> >     followed Dr. Frankhausers procedure for making blue cheese.  The
> >     cheese
> >     has developed a very nice bloom and rind,  much like in the I have
> to
> >     taste that cheese picture on his web page.  A recent development
> >     has me
> >     worried however, the wheel has started to develop small cracks on
> the
> >     sides.  Should I worry about this and take action?  Should I not
> worry
> >     about it, it is normal for the cheese to crack?  Should I
> immediately
> >     hide in my shop eat it?
> >
> >     Thanks in advance!
> >     Michael Brandt
> >
> >     P.S.  I leaning toward the later!!
> >
> >     _______________________________________________
> >     Cheese mailing list
> >     Cheese at hbd.org <mailto:Cheese at hbd.org>
> >     http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Cheese mailing list
> > Cheese at hbd.org
> > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> >
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
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From plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu  Thu Feb 22 11:05:05 2007
From: plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu (Joel Plutchak)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:05:05 -0600 (CST)
Subject: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 16, Issue 10
In-Reply-To: <mailman.123.1172159053.2593.cheese@hbd.org>
References: <mailman.123.1172159053.2593.cheese@hbd.org>
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702221001500.12265@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>

Peter <peter at naeslund.dk> wrote:
>The lactose in the whey is great bacteria food..  The local sewage
>processing plant usually gets around 40 tons of whey per day to 
>keep their bacteria alive.. They had been having problems since 
>both the slaughterhouse and bisquit factory in town closed..

   Mmmmmm, bacteria!  I wonder if that means the whey would
be good for my composte heap?  Other than the fact that all
that excess moisture would probably upset the balance and
make it stinky, something that happens if I don't spread out
and turn over the spent grain from brewing beer that I dump
on it every month or so.
-- 
Joel Plutchak


From peter at naeslund.dk  Thu Feb 22 11:19:57 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 17:19:57 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 16, Issue 10
References: <mailman.123.1172159053.2593.cheese@hbd.org>
	<Pine.LNX.4.61.0702221001500.12265@badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Message-ID: <016901c7569d$4d3917f0$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Joel Plutchak" <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
To: <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 5:05 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 16, Issue 10


> Peter <peter at naeslund.dk> wrote:
> >The lactose in the whey is great bacteria food..  The local sewage
> >processing plant usually gets around 40 tons of whey per day to 
> >keep their bacteria alive.. They had been having problems since 
> >both the slaughterhouse and bisquit factory in town closed..
> 
>    Mmmmmm, bacteria!  I wonder if that means the whey would
> be good for my composte heap?  Other than the fact that all
> that excess moisture would probably upset the balance and
> make it stinky, something that happens if I don't spread out
> and turn over the spent grain from brewing beer that I dump
> on it every month or so.

>From time to time we have to pay the farmers to take care of some of our whey ( we do make around 300 tons of whey per day* ).. They just pump it into the tank containing the wasteproducts from the livestock and use that mix to fertilize the fields..

It depends on the size of your compost heap and how much whey you make, but I guess it would work.. Dont have any compost or gardening experience apart from groeing giggleweed in the closet, so I have no clue about the plantlifes reaction to this..

/peter



From arf at mc.net  Thu Feb 22 11:41:45 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 10:41:45 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Blue cheese a foul
In-Reply-To: <1e5a81050702220750k4405f6e3qacb826b93e99f450@mail.gmail.com>
References: <45DB3B29.7070403@verizon.net>	<1e5a81050702201316v4774dc72s2b70d1bd39c03fa3@mail.gmail.com>	<45DBD5D3.9000108@verizon.net>
	<1e5a81050702220750k4405f6e3qacb826b93e99f450@mail.gmail.com>
Message-ID: <45DDC7C9.4020308@mc.net>

What I do with blue cheese is to put it in the plastic shoe box with a 
hygrometer.  I mentioned that leaving about 1" open at the end produces 
about 95% humidity.  This was determined by using the hygrometer.

It should also be noted that it was in my particular fridge and it's 
particular temp.  So you need to work it out yourself but the urban 
legend of putting a pan of water in the fridge is useless.  Nowhere near 
the amount of moisture will be produced.... sometimes.

The other issue is that the more the fridge runs, the dryer it will be. 
  So you need to ponder that variable.  In summer it may be very dry and 
in Winter very humid.  The only way to know is to measure it and control 
the immediate environment of the cheese... hence the shoe box and 
hygrometer.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From DreamTo at aol.com  Thu Feb 22 13:22:03 2007
From: DreamTo at aol.com (DreamTo@aol.com)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:22:03 EST
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
Message-ID: <d29.535ba9b.330f394b@aol.com>

please remove me from your email list
thanks
 

 (http://ult-tex.net/counts/index.cgi) 
<BR><BR><BR>**************************************<BR> AOL now offers free 
email to everyone.  Find out more about what's free from AOL at 
http://www.aol.com.
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From grandmas at grandmastree.com  Thu Feb 22 14:12:59 2007
From: grandmas at grandmastree.com (Barbara)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 13:12:59 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] cancel subscription
Message-ID: <20070222190914.0897D1C88228@mail.sysmatrix.net>

Please remove me from your mailing list.

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From stevensherry at alltel.net  Thu Feb 22 19:22:11 2007
From: stevensherry at alltel.net (stevensherry)
Date: Thu, 22 Feb 2007 19:22:11 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] cancel subscription
References: <20070222190914.0897D1C88228@mail.sysmatrix.net>
Message-ID: <001901c756e0$a9d54d60$01fea8c0@calpe>


  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Barbara 
  To: cheese at hbd.org 
  Sent: Thursday, February 22, 2007 2:12 PM
  Subject: [Cheese] cancel subscription


  Please remove me from your mailing list.



------------------------------------------------------------------------------


  _______________________________________________
  Cheese mailing list
  Cheese at hbd.org
  http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
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From kit at kganderson.net  Fri Feb 23 13:48:10 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 13:48:10 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>
	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>

I've got powdered butter milk. So, looking at Jack's recipe for 
mozzarella...
*1 Gallon reconstituted powdered buttermilk
160 grams unsalted butter
1/2 tsp Calcium Chloride
1/8 tsp S. thermophylus
1/8 tsp L. lactis
1/2 tsp liquid rennet

Is the CaCl still necessary? Does this sound like what you are looking 
to try, Peter?

Kit*


From peter at naeslund.dk  Fri Feb 23 14:26:23 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 20:26:23 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net><00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <024501c75780$84db6670$0701a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Friday, February 23, 2007 7:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> I've got powdered butter milk. So, looking at Jack's recipe for 
> mozzarella...
> *1 Gallon reconstituted powdered buttermilk
> 160 grams unsalted butter
> 1/2 tsp Calcium Chloride
> 1/8 tsp S. thermophylus
> 1/8 tsp L. lactis
> 1/2 tsp liquid rennet
> 
> Is the CaCl still necessary? Does this sound like what you are looking 
> to try, Peter?

The CaCl2 is still needed.. The CaCl2 comes into the game when the rennet starts breaking proteins apart.. The buttermilk idea is all about the fat..

Basically, my idea was just to swap the NF milk powder w. buttermilk powder..

>From the recipe it looks like its designed for frozen or dried cultures?... If you want to use fresh buttermilk as a starter instead, just throw a pint of fresh buttermilk in there..

But yes, it looks about right..

/peter


> 
> Kit*
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
> 



From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 00:23:23 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Fri, 23 Feb 2007 23:23:23 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>
	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>

Kit Anderson wrote:

> Is the CaCl still necessary? Does this sound like what you are looking 
> to try, Peter?

It is my understanding that as soon as milk is chilled, CaCl becomes 
necessary.  In other words, unless it is still warm from the cow, you 
should use it.

I am interested to know how this will emulsify.  I don't suppose you can 
just stir the melted butter into the warm butter milk but don't really know.

With lecithin or egg, it has to be worked in with a blender and the milk 
gradually added to the emulsified portion until you have a quart or 
more.  This then is added to the rest of the milk.  There was always 
some loss of fat that floated to the top and subsequently drained out 
but not enough to worry about.

The trick is to keep stirring up to the point where the rennet starts to 
set and then only allow it to set the minimum it takes to be able to cut 
it.  The longer it sits, the more fat is lost.

Let us know how the butter milk works.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 10:20:49 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 16:20:49 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
Message-ID: <003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 6:23 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> Kit Anderson wrote:
> 
> > Is the CaCl still necessary? Does this sound like what you are looking 
> > to try, Peter?
> 
> It is my understanding that as soon as milk is chilled, CaCl becomes 
> necessary.  In other words, unless it is still warm from the cow, you 
> should use it.

Erh?.. OK ?.. Care to explain or inform of a source?..
 
> I am interested to know how this will emulsify.  I don't suppose you can 
> just stir the melted butter into the warm butter milk but don't really know.
> 
> With lecithin or egg, it has to be worked in with a blender and the milk 
> gradually added to the emulsified portion until you have a quart or 
> more.  This then is added to the rest of the milk.  There was always 
> some loss of fat that floated to the top and subsequently drained out 
> but not enough to worry about.

About the same method we used when we made some tests with very small batches of veggie-oil based cheese ( 200 litre bathces ) We did homogenise it lightly, but using a blender should give the same results..

 
> The trick is to keep stirring up to the point where the rennet starts to 
> set and then only allow it to set the minimum it takes to be able to cut 
> it.  The longer it sits, the more fat is lost.

One trick could be to lower the pH to 5.25 chemically by using citric acid, At this pH it should be a matter of minutes before the milk coagulates..

/peter





From kit at kganderson.net  Sat Feb 24 17:59:49 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 17:59:49 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>
	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
Message-ID: <45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>

Here's the result from my effort. I divided the batch and tried two ways 
to emulsify the butter. First was in the blender at room temp, then 
heated. Second was putting the butter in at 90F, letting it melt, and 
then in the blender for 5 minutes. I added the cultures, waited, added 
the rennet, and waited.

No break at all. Waited another hour. No break. I cooled and then 
skimmed the milk. I was able to recover 86% of the butter. Then I 
applied heat in hopes of a ricotta. No deal.
So, powdered buttermilk will not emulsify butter fat. Although I have a 
biochem background, I am a noob at dairy science and can't explain the 
results. No casein in buttermilk, perhaps? Or the pH of the buttermilk 
was already low enough and the added culture was the culprit?

Kit



From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 19:17:27 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 18:17:27 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
	<003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E0D597.4020607@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

>> It is my understanding that as soon as milk is chilled, CaCl
>> becomes necessary.  In other words, unless it is still warm from
>> the cow, you should use it.
> 
> 
> Erh?.. OK ?.. Care to explain or inform of a source?..

Well, I presume that we can agree that it is chilling that upsets the
calcium balance but I am hard pressed to find a citation on needing to be
"warm from the cow".  I didn't invent the phrase; I just can't find a quote.


> One trick could be to lower the pH to 5.25 chemically by using citric
> acid, At this pH it should be a matter of minutes before the milk
> coagulates..

But it is then no longer cheese as we know it.  Well, at least not in 
the sense of a typical Cheddar type cheese.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 20:12:23 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:12:23 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net><45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
	<45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <008001c7587a$017863f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Saturday, February 24, 2007 11:59 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> Here's the result from my effort. I divided the batch and tried two ways 
> to emulsify the butter. First was in the blender at room temp, then 
> heated. Second was putting the butter in at 90F, letting it melt, and 
> then in the blender for 5 minutes. I added the cultures, waited, added 
> the rennet, and waited.
> 
> No break at all. Waited another hour. No break. I cooled and then 
> skimmed the milk. I was able to recover 86% of the butter. Then I 
> applied heat in hopes of a ricotta. No deal.
> So, powdered buttermilk will not emulsify butter fat. Although I have a 
> biochem background, I am a noob at dairy science and can't explain the 
> results. No casein in buttermilk, perhaps? Or the pH of the buttermilk 
> was already low enough and the added culture was the culprit?

Hmmm... Thats odd.. Really odd..

First off.. The pH has nothing to do with this - rennet will coagulate fresh milk, it just takes longer the farther you get away from rennet optimum pH ( ~5.4 )..

Second: The pH in recombined buttermilk is the same as in recombined NF milk.. Contrary to the buttermilk you buy at the stores, the dried stuff hasnt been cultured.. Cultured milk would just clog machinery once heated..

Third: Buttermilk contains ~3.5% protein on average, most of this is casein afaik..

Fourth: Kitchen cheesemakers seem to be experiencing very different coagulation times compared to what we get in an industrial environment - I have heard of people who put culture and rennet in the milk, left it overnight and cut it the next morning....

Coagulation usually takes about 40 minutes in the industrial environment I work at.. Its usually visible after 25 minutes..

/peter



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 20:17:08 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:17:08 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
	<45E0D597.4020607@mc.net>
Message-ID: <008801c7587a$ab1198a0$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 1:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

>> It is my understanding that as soon as milk is chilled, CaCl
>> becomes necessary.  In other words, unless it is still warm from
>> the cow, you should use it.
> 
> 
> Erh?.. OK ?.. Care to explain or inform of a source?..

Well, I presume that we can agree that it is chilling that upsets the
calcium balance but I am hard pressed to find a citation on needing to be
"warm from the cow".  I didn't invent the phrase; I just can't find a quote.

***

Thats a new one in my book.. Will ask the guy who is supposed to be in charge and know everything next time I speak to him..

***


> One trick could be to lower the pH to 5.25 chemically by using citric
> acid, At this pH it should be a matter of minutes before the milk
> coagulates..

But it is then no longer cheese as we know it.  Well, at least not in 
the sense of a typical Cheddar type cheese.

***

Some types of Mozzerella and many types of Feta are made this way 

/peter





From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 20:20:57 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:20:57 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>
	<45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <45E0E479.3080501@mc.net>

Kit Anderson wrote:

>Or the pH of the buttermilk 
> was already low enough and the added culture was the culprit?

I sort of missed that issue.  Just what is the pH of the re-hydrated 
buttermilk?  If it is anything substantially different from fresh milk, 
I think we are off on a tangent.

On the other hand, non-cultured butter milk was originally mentioned. 
It is quite possible that the stuff we can get around here is cultured 
and I would presume, useless for cheese making.

The answer lies in the pH.  You need to measure it to go any farther. 
It wants to be around 6.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 20:27:01 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:27:01 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <008801c7587a$ab1198a0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E0D597.4020607@mc.net>
	<008801c7587a$ab1198a0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E0E5E5.9080501@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> Some types of Mozzerella and many types of Feta are made this way

Ok but beginner cheese makers usually start with a type of cottage 
cheese then move on to cheese curds and then up to a Cheddar type of 
hard pressed cheese and these must be made with a slow ripening and 
pressing, to develop acid over a specific period of time (about 5 hours).

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 20:29:35 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:29:35 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net>
Message-ID: <009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 2:20 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> Kit Anderson wrote:
> 
> >Or the pH of the buttermilk 
> > was already low enough and the added culture was the culprit?
> 
> I sort of missed that issue.  Just what is the pH of the re-hydrated 
> buttermilk?  If it is anything substantially different from fresh milk, 
> I think we are off on a tangent.

It shouldnt be too far off

> 
> On the other hand, non-cultured butter milk was originally mentioned. 
> It is quite possible that the stuff we can get around here is cultured 
> and I would presume, useless for cheese making.

No... The drying process will not work with cultured buttermilk - if you attempt to do so, you will have to clean a lot of heat exchangers, pipes etc... I have had clogged heatexchangers w. milk around pH 5.9.. And believe me.. Noone wants to unclog these on a daily basis..

The only fix is to adjust the pH to ~6.5 using sodium hydroxide ( thats what we use ) and pasteurise...
 
/peter



From arf at mc.net  Sat Feb 24 20:38:51 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sat, 24 Feb 2007 19:38:51 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <008001c7587a$017863f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net><45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net>	<45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>
	<008001c7587a$017863f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E0E8AB.10900@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> 
> First off.. The pH has nothing to do with this - rennet will
> coagulate fresh milk, it just takes longer the farther you get away
> from rennet optimum pH ( ~5.4 )..

Right but it then is known in this country as Junket or pudding.

> Second: The pH in recombined buttermilk is the same as in recombined
> NF milk.. Contrary to the buttermilk you buy at the stores, the dried
> stuff hasnt been cultured..

That could be the problem here.  I have no idea what that stuff is in 
supermarkets called "dried buttermilk".

> Fourth: Kitchen cheesemakers seem to be experiencing very different
> coagulation times compared to what we get in an industrial
> environment...

There is no problem getting fresh liquid rennet to set in 30 minutes. 
In fact with good fresh milk, 20 min is all it takes. I think the 
problem is that with concocted milks from stores, the "set" is much 
softer and people prolong the process hoping that it will firm up and it 
never does, no matter CaCl or not.

The key is to give up after 40 mins and start heating very slowly and 
cut very carefully and stir even more carefully.  Once the curd starts 
to heat up a bit, it will be indistinguishable from fresh milk curds. 
It's the first few minutes that are precarious and very critical.

>I have heard of people who put culture and rennet in
> the milk, left it overnight and cut it the next morning....

Again, this is not cheese as defined above.  In fact, it is pretty much 
like yogurt.

js


-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sat Feb 24 20:40:58 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 02:40:58 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand><45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><003d01c75827$5d7201f0$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E0D597.4020607@mc.net><008801c7587a$ab1198a0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
	<45E0E5E5.9080501@mc.net>
Message-ID: <009a01c7587d$ffbab190$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 2:27 AM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> Some types of Mozzerella and many types of Feta are made this way

Ok but beginner cheese makers usually start with a type of cottage 
cheese then move on to cheese curds and then up to a Cheddar type of 
hard pressed cheese and these must be made with a slow ripening and 
pressing, to develop acid over a specific period of time (about 5 hours).

**

The trick is not to use citric acid, but Glucono-Delta-Lacton ( dont tell anyone that I told you :-), acetic acid and lactic acid depending on the desired result... Neither of these will form eyes in the cheese, and it will take a few experiments to get it right.. Citric acid will also work, but it wont taste as "right" as the GDL version..

/peter



From zj06 at aub.edu.lb  Sun Feb 25 05:32:56 2007
From: zj06 at aub.edu.lb (Ziad D. Jaber)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:32:56 +0200
Subject: [Cheese] Whey proteins.
Message-ID: <1172399576.45e165d8f1cf4@imail.aub.edu.lb>



Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:03:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
To: cheese at hbd.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502 at badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

   After a two-year hiatus, I finally made the time to make
two batches of cheese over the past two weeks (a stirred-curd
cheddar and an attempt at a semi-hard sort-of Havarti with
dill; I also smoked 2/3 of the former).
   Both times, I just couldn't bear throwing out the collected
whey, so I tried both of the whey cheese (riccota) recipes in
the Carroll "Home Cheesemaking" book.  They are quite simple,
involving mostly just heating the whey to near boiling (one
with vinegar, one without), then draining through butter muslin
(I used tight-meshed cheesecloth).  One recipe said yield
should be about 1/2 pound per gallon of whey, while the other
simply said "yield is low."  Both times, I got a meager 3 to
4 tablespoons of soft cheese, in spite of adding some
extra milk or cream to help with yield.
   So my questions are, has anybody else done this, and if
so what yield did you get?  And if the yield should be
higher, what could I have done wrong to keep the yield so
low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
--
Joel Plutchak

Dear Joel,
You are right it is usually not practical to work with small amounts of whey.
Still you can improve your yield of whey proteins, or recotta cheese or KARICHI
as we call it here in Lebanon by applying this method that we follow. First of
all the whey should not be very acidic and that means the type of cheese you
are producing does not require long inoculation period with lactic starter
cultures. Heat the whey up to 185 F and add about 10 % milk (raw, fresh,
pasteurized, or recombined it does not matter) mix well and wait till the
mixture starts to boil. By now you should have dissolved one ? two
tablespoonfuls of citric acid crystals in one cup of tap warm water. Add the
citric acid and agitate vigorously then turn of the heating and leave to rest
for 10 -15 minutes. The coagulum will collect on the surface and you can
retrieve it softly by a fine mesh wire. Here we serve it either fresh and moist
with honey or sugar or pressed and marinated with 5 ? 10 % brine (salt)
solution.
Bonne Apettite!!
yours  Ziad Jaber (Beirut - Lebanon)






From zj06 at aub.edu.lb  Sun Feb 25 05:39:03 2007
From: zj06 at aub.edu.lb (Ziad D. Jaber)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 12:39:03 +0200
Subject: [Cheese] Whey proteins.
Message-ID: <1172399943.45e167473c36a@imail.aub.edu.lb>

Dear Joel,
You are right it is usually not practical to work with small amounts of whey.
Still you can improve your yield of whey proteins, or cottage cheese or KARICHI
as we call it here in Lebanon by applying this method that we follow. First of
all the whey should not be very acidic and that means the type of cheese you
are producing does not require long inoculation period with lactic starter
cultures. Heat the whey up to 185 F and add about 10 % milk (raw, fresh,
pasteurized, or recombined it does not matter) mix well and wait till the
mixture starts to boil. By now you should have dissolved one ? two
tablespoonfuls of citric acid crystals in one cup of tap warm water. Add the
citric acid and agitate vigorously then turn of the heating and leave to rest
for 10 -15 minutes. The coagulum will collect on the surface and you can
retrieve it softly by a fine mesh wire. Here we serve it either fresh and moist
with honey or sugar or pressed and marinated with 5 ? 10 % brine (salt)
solution.
Bonne Apettite
Yours Ziad Jaber ( Beirut Lebanon)


Date: Wed, 21 Feb 2007 12:03:52 -0600 (CST)
From: Joel Plutchak <plutchak at ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Subject: [Cheese] Whey cheese questions
To: cheese at hbd.org
Message-ID: <Pine.LNX.4.61.0702211153050.5502 at badger.ncsa.uiuc.edu>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII

   After a two-year hiatus, I finally made the time to make
two batches of cheese over the past two weeks (a stirred-curd
cheddar and an attempt at a semi-hard sort-of Havarti with
dill; I also smoked 2/3 of the former).
   Both times, I just couldn't bear throwing out the collected
whey, so I tried both of the whey cheese (riccota) recipes in
the Carroll "Home Cheesemaking" book.  They are quite simple,
involving mostly just heating the whey to near boiling (one
with vinegar, one without), then draining through butter muslin
(I used tight-meshed cheesecloth).  One recipe said yield
should be about 1/2 pound per gallon of whey, while the other
simply said "yield is low."  Both times, I got a meager 3 to
4 tablespoons of soft cheese, in spite of adding some
extra milk or cream to help with yield.
   So my questions are, has anybody else done this, and if
so what yield did you get?  And if the yield should be
higher, what could I have done wrong to keep the yield so
low?  At this stage, I'm thinking it's not worth messing with
it in the typical low-scale home/hobbyist setting.
--
Joel Plutchak





From kit at kganderson.net  Sun Feb 25 09:09:31 2007
From: kit at kganderson.net (Kit Anderson)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 09:09:31 -0500
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net>
	<009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net>

The problem seems to be that the buttermilk is cultured. 
http://www.sacofoods.com/culteredbuttermilkblend.html
The pH is 5.3 while milk is 6.8

Kit


From peter at naeslund.dk  Sun Feb 25 11:02:22 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 17:02:22 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net><009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>
	<45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net>
Message-ID: <011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Kit Anderson" <kit at kganderson.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 3:09 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


> The problem seems to be that the buttermilk is cultured. 
> http://www.sacofoods.com/culteredbuttermilkblend.html
> The pH is 5.3 while milk is 6.8
> 

Hmmm... Looking at the product specs at the bottom of that page, I can tell you that its not the kind of stuff I was thinking of when mentioning buttermilk powder :-)...

I have / had the luxury of having access to a wide selection of industrial ingredients and was a bit puzzled about you being able to get buttermilk in the supermarket :-)

This is what I had in mind:
http://www.dcingredients.co.uk/downloads/dci_Buttermilk_Powder.pdf

/peter



From arf at mc.net  Sun Feb 25 15:53:24 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 14:53:24 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net><009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net>
	<011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E1F744.3050705@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> This is what I had in mind: 
> http://www.dcingredients.co.uk/downloads/dci_Buttermilk_Powder.pdf

Lot's of confusion here.  The cultured stuff is the only one that makes 
any claims about it's emulsifier abilities.  When you first brought this 
up I presumed that a small amount of this was used to emulsify the 
butter and then the blend added to the cheese milk.  Obviously, one can 
not make cheese with milk whose pH is already at the finished cheese level.

Assuming one could get dried non cultured (sweet) butter milk, I still 
do not see how this would emulsify butter.

We churn the cream to get the butter out and you are claiming that the 
butter can be re-emulsified and put back in.  My question is how and by 
what mechanism?

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From peter at naeslund.dk  Sun Feb 25 16:25:45 2007
From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 22:25:45 +0100
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net><009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net><011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>
	<45E1F744.3050705@mc.net>
Message-ID: <018701c75923$83068b00$0401a8c0@tissemand>


----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Jack Schmidling" <arf at mc.net>
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Sent: Sunday, February 25, 2007 9:53 PM
Subject: Re: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments


Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> This is what I had in mind: 
> http://www.dcingredients.co.uk/downloads/dci_Buttermilk_Powder.pdf

Lot's of confusion here.  The cultured stuff is the only one that makes 
any claims about it's emulsifier abilities.  When you first brought this 
up I presumed that a small amount of this was used to emulsify the 
butter and then the blend added to the cheese milk.  Obviously, one can 
not make cheese with milk whose pH is already at the finished cheese level.

** 

I had mentioned *uncultured* buttermilk in my idea.. The trick is that buttermilk, cultured or not, has a high contenct of lecitin left over from the smashed fat globules in the churning process..

FWIW: I have made designed icecream recipes for industrial use w. butter and buttermilk powder as the main dairy ingredients

Have also been involved in the production of thousands of tons of Feta using veggie oil emulsified by buttermilk, so I would like to think that the problem with this first experiment was due to a misunderstanding about what kind of buttermilk to get... From the looks of it, the stuff Kit had was cultured and not what I had suggested..

**

Assuming one could get dried non cultured (sweet) butter milk, I still 
do not see how this would emulsify butter.

**

The same way you managed to emulsify butter by using eggs..

**

We churn the cream to get the butter out and you are claiming that the 
butter can be re-emulsified and put back in.  My question is how and by 
what mechanism?

**

The process I have used for this is heating to ~50 deg C, mixing the molten butter or veggie oil into the milk, homogenising @ 30 BAR ( you could do this in a blender ), pasteurising and thats it.. The lecitin will stick to the fat and form fat globules once again.. The Homogenising is the key..

/peter






From arf at mc.net  Sun Feb 25 20:42:14 2007
From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling)
Date: Sun, 25 Feb 2007 19:42:14 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] So whos the new guy ? / Suggestion for experiments
In-Reply-To: <018701c75923$83068b00$0401a8c0@tissemand>
References: <799e8cd60702160524g28ba7f3fva67e2671b2ab8b8a@mail.gmail.com><45D5DE31.7080801@mc.net><799e8cd60702190547w19f6ef68y82197cc0cb69c6c9@mail.gmail.com>	<1e5a81050702201342k3bcd1b6bs2cb30ccf9becc7c5@mail.gmail.com><012701c75547$2a4ee140$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DBA750.8080106@kganderson.net><014501c7556b$0f9d7ef0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DC7E49.7090903@kganderson.net><009301c75608$f4d14130$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD02FB.4050802@kganderson.net><00c601c7562d$7da3eac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DD2183.7010000@mc.net>	<00d801c75659$667c2ac0$0701a8c0@tissemand>	<45DF36EA.2020004@kganderson.net>	<45DFCBCB.2000308@mc.net><45E0C365.7050401@kganderson.net>	<45E0E479.3080501@mc.net><009401c7587c$68d05060$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E1989B.5070803@kganderson.net><011e01c758f6$55f2c0c0$0401a8c0@tissemand>	<45E1F744.3050705@mc.net>
	<018701c75923$83068b00$0401a8c0@tissemand>
Message-ID: <45E23AF6.3020606@mc.net>

Peter N?slund M?ller wrote:

> The process I have used for this is heating to ~50 deg C, mixing the
> molten butter or veggie oil into the milk, homogenising @ 30 BAR (
> you could do this in a blender ), pasteurising and thats it.. The
> lecitin will stick to the fat and form fat globules once again.. The
> Homogenising is the key..

Is it possible that you are underestimating the importance of 30 Bar? 
That's about 420 psi, a non-trivial pressure.

Since the right kind of buttermilk powder might be hard to come by 
around here, perhaps you could run the experiment there with a blender 
and a small quantity just to make sure it will work in a kitchen.

js

-- 
PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm
Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com



From TEXASROLL at peoplepc.com  Mon Feb 26 20:26:44 2007
From: TEXASROLL at peoplepc.com (Nell Croissant)
Date: Mon, 26 Feb 2007 19:26:44 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7
References: <mailman.3.1158681600.1523.cheese@hbd.org>
Message-ID: <016e01c75a1b$983893d0$c6085a04@NellsToy>

If you have received any returned messages from me, my computer is back up and now running.
  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: cheese-request at hbd.org 
  To: cheese at hbd.org 
  Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 10:00 AM
  Subject: Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7


  Send Cheese mailing list submissions to
  cheese at hbd.org

  To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
  http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
  or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
  cheese-request at hbd.org

  You can reach the person managing the list at
  cheese-owner at hbd.org

  When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
  than "Re: Contents of Cheese digest..."


  Today's Topics:

     1. Re: need pointers for DIY press (Albert Ortiz)


  ----------------------------------------------------------------------

  Message: 1
  Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:42:42 -0400
  From: "Albert Ortiz" <alhiem at gmail.com>
  Subject: Re: [Cheese] need pointers for DIY press
  To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
  Message-ID:
  <1e5a81050609181942r620eab69vfcd97e55d27c7cd at mail.gmail.com>
  Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

  I was walking around a store once and found some small hard plastic trash
  bins.  I bought 2, filed away the small ribs it had on the inside, drilled a
  lot of small holes in one of them, and cleaned them really thorougly.  What
  i figured was thatm if pvc is not food grade ans some people use it with
  success, well two plastic well rounded tubs oughtta do the trick.  It aint
  perfect, by a long shot, but it worked until me and my dad built a very nice
  one from for fresh water pvc 8" in diamter tubing.  Just an idea.  One other
  thing you can do is go to thrifty store and check out their range of
  stoppered jars, some of them should have nice, wooden lids you can use as a
  follower, is what i did use until the two trash bins came around.

  Albert


  On 9/11/06, Patrick Mann <patrickmann at hotmail.com> wrote:
  >
  >  I've been searching the web for instructions for a simple DIY cheese
  > press. I found a few, but either I can't source all the parts or I don't
  > have the woodworking skills/tools to build it. E.g. a really well-fitting
  > follower that can withstand pressure and moisture is a problem.
  > If you have made a press using *readily available* parts, please share -
  > thanks!
  >
  >
  > ------------------------------
  > Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search Try it now!<http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG>
  >
  > _______________________________________________
  > Cheese mailing list
  > Cheese at hbd.org
  > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
  >
  >
  >
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From AlpineMkting at msn.com  Tue Feb 27 10:10:39 2007
From: AlpineMkting at msn.com (Glenn Merchant)
Date: Tue, 27 Feb 2007 09:10:39 -0600
Subject: [Cheese] Home Made Cheese Press
Message-ID: <BAY108-DAV16A87756D5612BBA2C386DC8820@phx.gbl>

I made my cheese press from two wood cutting boards, the bottom one has about 1/2 inch rim on it so it will hold liquid. I drilled 4 holes in both in each corner, glued four 1/2 inch dowl rods in the bottom board and left the top one free to slide up and down. I use a round six inch plastic insert with holes drilled in it from an ice bucket. I cut out rounds of 2x6 to put on top, so as the cheese is being compressed you just ad another round to keep the pressure on. I stack weights from a gym set (bar bells) on top of the top board. I can use weights from 1 lb. to 100 lbs to get the results I need. I also use a dish cloth on the bottom to wick the liquid into a bowl as it is squeezed out, works great and it was cheap to make. I then set the container with the compressed cheese into the ice bucket and refrigerate it for one day to set up. The following day it pushes out and the cheese cloth is removed, ready for the next batch. It does a great job. Glenn

----- Original Message -----
From: Nell Croissant
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 7:41 AM
To: cheese at hbd.org
Subject: Re: [Cheese] Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7

If you have received any returned messages from me, my computer is back up and now running.
----- Original Message -----  
From: cheese-request at hbd.org  
To: cheese at hbd.org  
Sent: Tuesday, September 19, 2006 10:00 AM
Subject: Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7


Send Cheese mailing list submissions to
cheese at hbd.org

To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
cheese-request at hbd.org

You can reach the person managing the list at
cheese-owner at hbd.org

When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
than "Re: Contents of Cheese digest..."


Today's Topics:

   1. Re: need pointers for DIY press (Albert Ortiz)


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Mon, 18 Sep 2006 22:42:42 -0400
From: "Albert Ortiz" <alhiem at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Cheese] need pointers for DIY press
To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" <cheese at hbd.org>
Message-ID:
<1e5a81050609181942r620eab69vfcd97e55d27c7cd at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"

I was walking around a store once and found some small hard plastic trash
bins.  I bought 2, filed away the small ribs it had on the inside, drilled a
lot of small holes in one of them, and cleaned them really thorougly.  What
i figured was thatm if pvc is not food grade ans some people use it with
success, well two plastic well rounded tubs oughtta do the trick.  It aint
perfect, by a long shot, but it worked until me and my dad built a very nice
one from for fresh water pvc 8" in diamter tubing.  Just an idea.  One other
thing you can do is go to thrifty store and check out their range of
stoppered jars, some of them should have nice, wooden lids you can use as a
follower, is what i did use until the two trash bins came around.

Albert


On 9/11/06, Patrick Mann <patrickmann at hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>  I've been searching the web for instructions for a simple DIY cheese
> press. I found a few, but either I can't source all the parts or I don't
> have the woodworking skills/tools to build it. E.g. a really well-fitting
> follower that can withstand pressure and moisture is a problem.
> If you have made a press using *readily available* parts, please share -
> thanks!
>
>
> ------------------------------
> Check the weather nationwide with MSN Search Try it now!<http://search.msn.com/results.aspx?q=weather&FORM=WLMTAG>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Cheese mailing list
> Cheese at hbd.org
> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese
>
>
>
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End of Cheese Digest, Vol 12, Issue 7
*************************************
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