From owlmiller at gmail.com Thu Jul 5 20:02:37 2007 From: owlmiller at gmail.com (Owlmiller) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 20:02:37 -0400 Subject: [Cheese] whey question References: <200705061642.l46GebAU026120@brew.hbd.org> Message-ID: <003d01c7bf60$f7605640$6400a8c0@SR1538X> I have a question about whey: We made a mozzarella batch today and then tried to get a ricotta from the still milky whey by adding more citric acid and reheating it. We got almost nothing to speak of, and there was not a heavy curdling. Did I do something wrong? Or is it actually not something you get a lot of when you try to "reclaim" stuff from the whey? -Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070705/6b11fa89/attachment-0002.html From bethahill at mac.com Thu Jul 5 20:14:05 2007 From: bethahill at mac.com (Beth Hill) Date: Thu, 5 Jul 2007 19:14:05 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] whey question In-Reply-To: <003d01c7bf60$f7605640$6400a8c0@SR1538X> References: <200705061642.l46GebAU026120@brew.hbd.org> <003d01c7bf60$f7605640$6400a8c0@SR1538X> Message-ID: I'VE HAD THE SAME LUCK, SO AM LOOKING FORWARD TO THE RESPONSES. Beth On Jul 5, 2007, at 7:02 PM, Owlmiller wrote: > I have a question about whey: > > We made a mozzarella batch today and then tried to get a ricotta > from the still milky whey by adding more citric acid and reheating > it. We got almost nothing to speak of, and there was not a heavy > curdling. Did I do something wrong? Or is it actually not > something you get a lot of when you try to "reclaim" stuff from the > whey? > > -Janet > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070705/914e52b7/attachment-0002.html From arf at mc.net Fri Jul 6 00:07:12 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Thu, 05 Jul 2007 22:07:12 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] whey question In-Reply-To: <003d01c7bf60$f7605640$6400a8c0@SR1538X> References: <200705061642.l46GebAU026120@brew.hbd.org> <003d01c7bf60$f7605640$6400a8c0@SR1538X> Message-ID: <468DBFF0.9020400@mc.net> Owlmiller wrote: > I have a question about whey: > > We made a mozzarella batch today and then tried to get a ricotta from > the still milky whey by adding more citric acid and reheating it. We > got almost nothing to speak of, and there was not a heavy curdling. > Did I do something wrong? Or is it actually not something you get a > lot of when you try to "reclaim" stuff from the whey? It's something like wishful thinking. In order to get any useful amount of cheese out of it you have to add whole milk so it's not really practical on a kitchen basis. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From corina at cyber-dyne.com Fri Jul 6 17:25:51 2007 From: corina at cyber-dyne.com (Corina) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 14:25:51 -0700 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk Message-ID: Hi everyone, I have noticed that when I make buttermilk it gets really thick initially, but then after a few days it gets a lot more liquid and eventually separates. When I buy buttermilk at the store it seems to get thicker the longer I keep it (sometimes 10-14 days). I use the store buttermilk to culture the home made stuff. Does anyone know why mine gets watery or what to do about it? Thanks, Corina From arf at mc.net Fri Jul 6 20:40:25 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 18:40:25 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468EE0F9.4030708@mc.net> Corina wrote: > Does anyone know why > mine gets watery or what to do about it? You need to tell us how you make it in order to make any useful response. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From peter at naeslund.dk Fri Jul 6 20:51:54 2007 From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 02:51:54 +0200 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk References: Message-ID: <016d01c7c031$0376db40$6a4dd458@tissemand> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corina" To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" Sent: Friday, July 06, 2007 11:25 PM Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk > Hi everyone, > > I have noticed that when I make buttermilk it gets really thick > initially, but then after a few days it gets a lot more liquid and > eventually separates. When I buy buttermilk at the store it seems to > get thicker the longer I keep it (sometimes 10-14 days). I use the > store buttermilk to culture the home made stuff. Does anyone know why > mine gets watery or what to do about it? It may be related to some sort of enzymatic process involving the enzymes the bacteria use.. Once the bacteria start dying, they leak some enzymes into the milk... Some of these enzymes can break the casein molecules apart.. Another thing: Most storebought buttermilk is homogenised,, /peter From corina at cyber-dyne.com Fri Jul 6 22:56:09 2007 From: corina at cyber-dyne.com (Corina) Date: Fri, 6 Jul 2007 19:56:09 -0700 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk Message-ID: Hi guys, I make the buttermilk using milk that has been pasteurized but not homogenized (I buy it raw and pasteurize it at 145 F for 30 mins). I cool it completely (it is refrigerated overnight when I start) and then put in a few cubes of buttermilk that I froze from either a previous batch of my own, or from store-bought buttermilk. Then I just leave it out at room temperature until it's thick, and then put it in the fridge. When the weather is cold, I heat the milk to 70 degrees to start. The amount of milk I use varies a lot, but it seems to come out the same all the time. I figure the culture just grows until it has turned it all into buttermilk, so it takes longer for a bigger batch? Peter wrote: >Once the bacteria start dying, they leak some enzymes into the >milk... Some of these enzymes can break the casein molecules apart.. Hmm...interesting. What initiates the dying? Do they use the milk for food and eventually run out of the part they eat? >Another thing: Most storebought buttermilk is homogenised,, Does that keep it from separating? (I mean, besides the cream separating, of course!) I have noticed my buttermilk also separates over time. Thanks for your input! Corina From arf at mc.net Sat Jul 7 00:56:53 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Fri, 06 Jul 2007 22:56:53 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468F1D15.9040200@mc.net> Corina wrote: > I make the buttermilk using milk that has been pasteurized but not > homogenized (I buy it raw and pasteurize it at 145 F for 30 mins). As far as I know, "cultured buttermilk" is made from skimmed milk, not whole milk. Other than that, I see nothing wrong with your process. > I figure the culture just grows until it has > turned it all into buttermilk, so it takes longer for a bigger batch? I don't think so assuming you adjust the amount of starter. When the pH reaches 4.5, it is done. It is important not to disturb it until that point or it will/can separate. It is also agitated after this to break it up into a buttermilk-like texture. This, of course, in not really buttermilk but what the dairy industry has decided we should like. It's a good way to get rid of a lot of skimmed milk. Buttermilk is supposed to be what is left in the churn after butter is made. If the cream was cultured, we have cultured butter milk. If you culture skimmed milk you get cultured skimmed milk but that probably would not sell very well. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From peter at naeslund.dk Sat Jul 7 07:34:33 2007 From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:34:33 +0200 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk References: Message-ID: <01b901c7c08a$ca9b6570$6a4dd458@tissemand> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corina" To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 4:56 AM Subject: Re: [Cheese] Buttermilk > Peter wrote: > >Once the bacteria start dying, they leak some enzymes into the > >milk... Some of these enzymes can break the casein molecules apart.. > > Hmm...interesting. What initiates the dying? Do they use the milk for > food and eventually run out of the part they eat? Once the milk reaches a pH of approx. 4.6 they cant ferment any more of the lactose in the milk... Its a matter of not eating because they cant get rid of the waste.. > >Another thing: Most storebought buttermilk is homogenised,, > > Does that keep it from separating? (I mean, besides the cream > separating, of course!) I have noticed my buttermilk also separates > over time. Homogenising the buttermilk thickens it.. You are thinking of whey coming out of the milk right?... Thats a natural process related to the pH in the buttermilk.. Homogenising might help a bit.. /peter > > Thanks for your input! > Corina > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > From peter at naeslund.dk Sat Jul 7 07:42:49 2007 From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 13:42:49 +0200 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk References: <468F1D15.9040200@mc.net> Message-ID: <01bf01c7c08b$f1e25e80$6a4dd458@tissemand> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Schmidling" To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 6:56 AM Subject: Re: [Cheese] Buttermilk > Corina wrote: > > > I make the buttermilk using milk that has been pasteurized but not > > homogenized (I buy it raw and pasteurize it at 145 F for 30 mins). > > As far as I know, "cultured buttermilk" is made from skimmed milk, not > whole milk. Yes.. > Other than that, I see nothing wrong with your process. > > > I figure the culture just grows until it has > > turned it all into buttermilk, so it takes longer for a bigger batch? > > I don't think so assuming you adjust the amount of starter. When the pH > reaches 4.5, it is done. It is important not to disturb it until that > point or it will/can separate. Stirring in an unfinished batch of buttermilk slows the process down and makes the end product more liquid.. Taste etc. are not affected by this btw.. This was a common problem when I worked at the cheese factory ( quit my job a couple of weeks ago ).. People would innoculate a 5 ton batch of skimmed milk to make a cheese starterculture and forget to turn the agitator off.. It'd take almost twice as long before the new batch of starter was ready for use.. > It is also agitated after this to break it up into a buttermilk-like > texture. > > This, of course, in not really buttermilk but what the dairy industry > has decided we should like. It's a good way to get rid of a lot of > skimmed milk. Actually, here in Denmark the skimmed milk is not as big a problem as the cream.. At the cheese factory I worked at we processed ~3.500.000 litres of milk per week and sent ~50.000 litres of cream to a butter factory each week.. Skimmed milk, if in surplus is often spray dried and sold as ingredients for other food products etc.. /peter > Buttermilk is supposed to be what is left in the churn after butter is > made. If the cream was cultured, we have cultured butter milk. > > If you culture skimmed milk you get cultured skimmed milk but that > probably would not sell very well. > > js > > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > From corina at cyber-dyne.com Sat Jul 7 10:23:55 2007 From: corina at cyber-dyne.com (Corina) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 07:23:55 -0700 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk Message-ID: Thanks for your comments, JS and Peter! It sounds like I am making it right; it's just a slightly different product from the store-bought kind. What is the cheapest/easiest way to test the PH? Corina From peter at naeslund.dk Sat Jul 7 10:36:15 2007 From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 16:36:15 +0200 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk References: Message-ID: <027401c7c0a4$2ceb0dc0$6a4dd458@tissemand> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corina" To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" Sent: Saturday, July 07, 2007 4:23 PM Subject: Re: [Cheese] Buttermilk > Thanks for your comments, JS and Peter! It sounds like I am making it > right; it's just a slightly different product from the store-bought > kind. What is the cheapest/easiest way to test the PH? > Although the QC system demanded we use a pH meter to measure the pH before using the starter, it was much easier just looking at how the starter tasted and its viscosity.. I usually got it within +/- 0.1, but thats probably just because I performed that check thousands of times :-) Some people use those paper strips that will change color, others use an electronic pH meter, others do a titration with sodium hydroxide... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titration /peter From corina at cyber-dyne.com Sat Jul 7 11:52:46 2007 From: corina at cyber-dyne.com (Corina) Date: Sat, 7 Jul 2007 08:52:46 -0700 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk Message-ID: Hi Peter and all, >Although the QC system demanded we use a pH meter to measure the pH >before using the starter, it was much easier just looking at how the >starter tasted and its viscosity.. That's what I've done so far. Also, as long as I don't shake it up before it's solid (and make it more watery than it needs to be), I figure it doesn't actually matter, cos the culture will continue to grow in the fridge anyway... Corina From arf at mc.net Sat Jul 7 12:27:06 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Sat, 07 Jul 2007 10:27:06 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <468FBEDA.3020806@mc.net> Corina wrote: > Thanks for your comments, JS and Peter! It sounds like I am making it > right; it's just a slightly different product from the store-bought > kind. What is the cheapest/easiest way to test the PH? Unfortunately, cheapest does not work for cheese. To be of any use, the resolution required demands a high end meter and the cheapest I have ever seen is around $200. The one I use was about twice that because the less expensive was not available when I bought it. The good news is that for this application, "God" takes care of it. I forgot the term but when the pH reaches 4.5, the reaction stops and no further reduction takes place. This is also the point at which the milk sets into a curd (assuming no rennet). So, if it has set up, it must be very near to 4.5. At room temp, this is generally over night. This doesn't help with cheese making because most cheese would be ruined by then so we either use a meter or trust to experience, luck and what works for others. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From corina at cyber-dyne.com Sun Jul 8 12:50:54 2007 From: corina at cyber-dyne.com (Corina) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 09:50:54 -0700 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk Message-ID: Hi JS and all, >the >resolution required demands a high end meter and the cheapest I have >ever seen is around $200. >The good news is that for this application, "God" takes care of it. I >forgot the term but when the pH reaches 4.5, the reaction stops and no >further reduction takes place. Oh! Thanks very much; that was a really helpful post. :-) >This is also the point at which the milk >sets into a curd (assuming no rennet). So, if it has set up, it must be >very near to 4.5. At room temp, this is generally over night. Are there degrees of being set? Like does it form a soft curd first, and then get more firm? Or is it a matter of being either liquid or set? Yesterday was a warm day and it seemed to be done after only 6 or 8 hours. Thanks also for your comments about cheesemaking, as I do want to try that later. Corina From arf at mc.net Sun Jul 8 13:58:13 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Sun, 08 Jul 2007 11:58:13 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <469125B5.7070604@mc.net> > Are there degrees of being set? Like does it form a soft curd first, > and then get more firm? Or is it a matter of being either liquid or > set? Good question and I have never actually measured it over time. I believe it is rather sudden but that is a guess. >Yesterday was a warm day and it seemed to be done after only 6 > or 8 hours. It is most definitely a function of temp. The warmer it is the faster it happens. If you have ever made yogurt, it is the same process. In an incubator it takes about 6 hours and "overnight" at room temp. The only difference between yogurt and your "cultured buttermilk" is the cultures used. Yogurt is made with thermophylic cultures at somewhat higher temp. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From peter at naeslund.dk Sun Jul 8 14:18:27 2007 From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 20:18:27 +0200 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk References: <469125B5.7070604@mc.net> Message-ID: <003901c7c18c$6199a570$6a4dd458@tissemand> ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jack Schmidling" To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 7:58 PM Subject: Re: [Cheese] Buttermilk > > > Are there degrees of being set? Like does it form a soft curd first, > > and then get more firm? Or is it a matter of being either liquid or > > set? > > Good question and I have never actually measured it over time. I > believe it is rather sudden but that is a guess. It changes gradually over a couple of hours, but I guess you could call that sudden considering the whole process takes 16-24 hours.. > >Yesterday was a warm day and it seemed to be done after only 6 > > or 8 hours. > > It is most definitely a function of temp. The warmer it is the faster > it happens. Yes, but the temperature also changes the balance between the 2 kinds of bacteria that develops the flavor... Make it too warm and it will taste more "yoghurty".. The ideal temperature is around 16 degrees C, and you do need to be pretty accurate at this point as a change of 0.5 deg C can result in a notable change in taste... /peter From corina at cyber-dyne.com Sun Jul 8 16:52:39 2007 From: corina at cyber-dyne.com (Corina) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 13:52:39 -0700 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk Message-ID: Hello again, I didn't realise the temp mattered so much! My kitchen probably is 16 C in the winter, but right now it must be way too hot. That must be part of the reason why my buttermilk has recently changed texture--I'll bet the bacteria is different. That's really useful information (about the two different kinds of bacteria), because now I will know not to use buttermilk I make during these warm months to make frozen buttermilk cubes for cultures later. I'll buy new buttermilk for that. Thanks again, to you both! Corina From peter at naeslund.dk Sun Jul 8 17:23:48 2007 From: peter at naeslund.dk (=?iso-8859-1?Q?Peter_N=E6slund_M=F8ller?=) Date: Sun, 8 Jul 2007 23:23:48 +0200 Subject: [Cheese] Buttermilk References: Message-ID: <005001c7c1a6$45e33ac0$6a4dd458@tissemand> The texture is mainly related to the pH in the product, not the bacteria.. btw.. There are actually 4 strains of bacteria in a buttermilk culture: Lactococcus Lactis Lactococcus Diacetylactis* Lactococcus Cremoris Leuconostoc Cremoris* Some cultures have a bit of Lactobacillus Caseii added as it is believed to have a positive influence ( probiotic ) on the human digestive system All 4(5) of these bacteria start by fermenting the lactose to lactic acid, then as the pH drops the bacteria marked with a * starts fermenting citric acid instead.. The bacteria marked with a * are the ones that ferment the citric acid present in the milk to acetaldehyde and diacetyl.. The acetaldehyde flavor is what you may recognise from yoghurt.. Fermentation of citric acid is also responsible for the "good" holes in most Edam types of cheese The names of these bacteria may vary slightly in the US as it was decided to rename the Streptococcus family used in milk products to Lactococcus to avoid confusion with pathogens.. Did that make any sense? /peter ----- Original Message ----- From: "Corina" To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" Sent: Sunday, July 08, 2007 10:52 PM Subject: Re: [Cheese] Buttermilk > Hello again, > > I didn't realise the temp mattered so much! My kitchen probably is 16 > C in the winter, but right now it must be way too hot. That must be > part of the reason why my buttermilk has recently changed > texture--I'll bet the bacteria is different. That's really useful > information (about the two different kinds of bacteria), because now > I will know not to use buttermilk I make during these warm months to > make frozen buttermilk cubes for cultures later. I'll buy new > buttermilk for that. > > Thanks again, to you both! > > Corina > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > From little_blonde_spaz at yahoo.ca Mon Jul 9 12:51:13 2007 From: little_blonde_spaz at yahoo.ca (Kathy Irion) Date: Mon, 9 Jul 2007 12:51:13 -0400 (EDT) Subject: [Cheese] waxing Message-ID: <401595.29533.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> I'm just starting out making cheese and having a tough time finding cheesemaking supplies in my area. I don't currently have any cheese wax, and I'm wondering if anyone can give me an alternative to waxing. If anyone on the list lives in Alberta Canada, where do you get your supplies? Thanks --------------------------------- Be smarter than spam. See how smart SpamGuard is at giving junk email the boot with the All-new Yahoo! Mail -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070709/763c4e1a/attachment-0002.html From scott at waldetech.ca Mon Jul 9 14:08:13 2007 From: scott at waldetech.ca (Scott Walde) Date: Mon, 09 Jul 2007 12:08:13 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] waxing In-Reply-To: <401595.29533.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> References: <401595.29533.qm@web63412.mail.re1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4692798D.7010009@waldetech.ca> Kathy Irion wrote: > I'm just starting out making cheese and having a tough time finding > cheesemaking supplies in my area. I don't currently have any cheese > wax, and I'm wondering if anyone can give me an alternative to > waxing. If anyone on the list lives in Alberta Canada, where do you > get your supplies? I'm not sure if they have wax, but http://www.danlac.com is located in Airdrie and carries rennet, cultures, other enzymes, etc. ttyl srw From bethahill at mac.com Tue Jul 10 22:43:18 2007 From: bethahill at mac.com (Beth Hill) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:43:18 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] cheese coloring Message-ID: <8DBBFDCE-9B91-42F9-A635-4A380F01722F@mac.com> i'm a rookie. my kids take one look at white cheese and won't touch it. can you color cheese with food coloring or do you have to use something special to color it with? and where do i get it? and when do you add the color in the process? Beth -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070710/c8eee029/attachment-0002.html From bethahill at mac.com Tue Jul 10 22:39:50 2007 From: bethahill at mac.com (Beth Hill) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 21:39:50 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] whey question In-Reply-To: <468DBFF0.9020400@mc.net> References: <200705061642.l46GebAU026120@brew.hbd.org> <003d01c7bf60$f7605640$6400a8c0@SR1538X> <468DBFF0.9020400@mc.net> Message-ID: i had whey from a 2 gal batch of cheese and let it sit almost 24 hrs and then heated it to near boiling, turned off the heat and added 3 tablespoons of white vinegar and let it sit til it looked like clouds floating in whey and was about 100 degrees F. pour GENTLY into cheese cloth lined collinder and let drain. i got about 3 cups of ricotta from it. maybe it has to do with the milk you start with. i used powdered skim and added 1 pint of heavy cream per gallon. Beth On Jul 5, 2007, at 11:07 PM, Jack Schmidling wrote: > Owlmiller wrote: >> I have a question about whey: >> >> We made a mozzarella batch today and then tried to get a ricotta from >> the still milky whey by adding more citric acid and reheating it. We >> got almost nothing to speak of, and there was not a heavy curdling. >> Did I do something wrong? Or is it actually not something you get a >> lot of when you try to "reclaim" stuff from the whey? > > It's something like wishful thinking. In order to get any useful > amount > of cheese out of it you have to add whole milk so it's not really > practical on a kitchen basis. > > js > > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http:// > schmidling.com > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070710/3fd0da27/attachment-0002.html From arf at mc.net Wed Jul 11 00:11:00 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Tue, 10 Jul 2007 22:11:00 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] cheese coloring In-Reply-To: <8DBBFDCE-9B91-42F9-A635-4A380F01722F@mac.com> References: <8DBBFDCE-9B91-42F9-A635-4A380F01722F@mac.com> Message-ID: <46945854.5070101@mc.net> Beth Hill wrote: > i'm a rookie. my kids take one look at white cheese and won't touch > it. can you color cheese with food coloring or do you have to use > something special to color it with? and where do i get it? and when > do you add the color in the process? You can get the proper stuff at any cheese making supply source and you add it to the milk along with the cultures. However, I think you would do your kids a bigger favor by explaining why cheese is colored and thereby expand their horizons instead of letting them dumb down your cheese. As I pointed out in another posting, the best cheese and butter cows (Jersey and Guernsey) produce milk with lots of cream and lots of kerotin. This produces butter and cheese with a characteristic yellow color that was the standard of excellence. Unfortunately, Holsteins produce more milk per pound of feed and so their milk is forced upon the consumer because of greed. In order to fool consumers into thinking they were getting Jersey or Guernsey butter and cheese, the milk was artificially colored. This became the way people related to cheese. If it aint yellow, it aint cheese. So if you want yellow cheese use good milk or reduce your standards to those of a child and put coloring in it. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From bethahill at mac.com Wed Jul 11 08:14:35 2007 From: bethahill at mac.com (Beth Hill) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:14:35 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] cheese coloring In-Reply-To: <46945854.5070101@mc.net> References: <8DBBFDCE-9B91-42F9-A635-4A380F01722F@mac.com> <46945854.5070101@mc.net> Message-ID: <9F209061-29C0-4AA7-8F7C-DED0C4A36DB2@mac.com> my "children" are adults. and have wonderful standards. we live in a very rural area where cows are raised for meat and not milk, so fresh milk is not an option. i thot perhaps there would be a natural source of coloring to use rather than artificial (food coloring). i'll check the online source that i got my cheese wax from and see what they have. thanks for the response. Beth On Jul 10, 2007, at 11:11 PM, Jack Schmidling wrote: > Beth Hill wrote: >> i'm a rookie. my kids take one look at white cheese and won't touch >> it. can you color cheese with food coloring or do you have to use >> something special to color it with? and where do i get it? and when >> do you add the color in the process? > > You can get the proper stuff at any cheese making supply source and > you > add it to the milk along with the cultures. > > However, I think you would do your kids a bigger favor by > explaining why > cheese is colored and thereby expand their horizons instead of letting > them dumb down your cheese. > > As I pointed out in another posting, the best cheese and butter cows > (Jersey and Guernsey) produce milk with lots of cream and lots of > kerotin. This produces butter and cheese with a characteristic yellow > color that was the standard of excellence. > > Unfortunately, Holsteins produce more milk per pound of feed and so > their milk is forced upon the consumer because of greed. > > In order to fool consumers into thinking they were getting Jersey or > Guernsey butter and cheese, the milk was artificially colored. This > became the way people related to cheese. If it aint yellow, it aint > cheese. > > So if you want yellow cheese use good milk or reduce your standards to > those of a child and put coloring in it. > > js > > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http:// > schmidling.com > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070711/3df59608/attachment-0002.html From owlmiller at gmail.com Wed Jul 11 09:01:50 2007 From: owlmiller at gmail.com (Owlmiller) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:01:50 -0400 Subject: [Cheese] cheese coloring References: <8DBBFDCE-9B91-42F9-A635-4A380F01722F@mac.com><46945854.5070101@mc.net> <9F209061-29C0-4AA7-8F7C-DED0C4A36DB2@mac.com> Message-ID: <005a01c7c3bb$a6265860$6400a8c0@SR1538X> I have not colored any cheese but I remember reading that you have to put it in before the rennet because it can interrupt the curdling process. I wonder if turmeric or mustard or paprika would work, but they also might change the taste of the cheese, and possibly the acidity or other aspect of the process. Perhaps there is something out there that both colors and enhances the taste of the cheese? Or perhaps something you can mix in after the curds are drained? There are some cheeses that call for eggs. That would color naturally, but you'd only have that particular cheese. You could try some cheeses that are traditionally white and see if your adult children are willing to eat perhaps chevre or feta, ricotta or parmesan? Or do a cheese log kind of thing where the outside is covered with nuts. Or put your white cheese into a lasagna, and have the tomato sauce do the coloring after the fact. -Janet -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070711/92359f8b/attachment-0002.html From arf at mc.net Wed Jul 11 09:35:00 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:35:00 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] cheese coloring In-Reply-To: <9F209061-29C0-4AA7-8F7C-DED0C4A36DB2@mac.com> References: <8DBBFDCE-9B91-42F9-A635-4A380F01722F@mac.com> <46945854.5070101@mc.net> <9F209061-29C0-4AA7-8F7C-DED0C4A36DB2@mac.com> Message-ID: <4694DC84.6090703@mc.net> Beth Hill wrote: >i thot perhaps there would be a natural source > of coloring to use rather than artificial (food coloring). The standard coloring for cheese is Annatto, "a derivative of the achiote trees of tropical America". I guess that makes it "natural". Wikipedia has a nice article on it. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From bethahill at mac.com Wed Jul 11 10:16:46 2007 From: bethahill at mac.com (Beth Hill) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:16:46 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] cheese coloring In-Reply-To: <4694DC84.6090703@mc.net> References: <8DBBFDCE-9B91-42F9-A635-4A380F01722F@mac.com> <46945854.5070101@mc.net> <9F209061-29C0-4AA7-8F7C-DED0C4A36DB2@mac.com> <4694DC84.6090703@mc.net> Message-ID: <35474500-44B6-4EAF-A23D-A5ACA55C9388@mac.com> i have achiote powder for seasoning beans and rice. hmmm.. maybe i'll try it. i guess if it leaves a flavor behind, i can use my cheese in mexican dishes. :) i saw annatto in a catalog from where i got my cheese wax so at least i know i can get it if i want to. thanks again. Beth On Jul 11, 2007, at 8:35 AM, Jack Schmidling wrote: > Beth Hill wrote: >> i thot perhaps there would be a natural source >> of coloring to use rather than artificial (food coloring). > > The standard coloring for cheese is Annatto, "a derivative of the > achiote trees of tropical America". I guess that makes it "natural". > > Wikipedia has a nice article on it. > > js > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http:// > schmidling.com > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070711/c59b5bea/attachment-0002.html From rosemarygoddess at moonwiseherbs.com Wed Jul 11 10:24:18 2007 From: rosemarygoddess at moonwiseherbs.com (Linda Conroy) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:24:18 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] dying cheese Message-ID: <200707111425.l6BEOdMF009103@brew.hbd.org> An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070711/d1f045a7/attachment-0002.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070711/d1f045a7/attachment-0002.ksh From rhersch at seawaymfg.com Wed Jul 11 12:05:33 2007 From: rhersch at seawaymfg.com (Bob Hersch) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 12:05:33 -0400 Subject: [Cheese] please remove References: Message-ID: <17513243266A5145B8349CE111D5EC31EA7298@smc-ms1.seawaymfg.com> -----Original Message----- From: cheese-bounces at hbd.org [mailto:cheese-bounces at hbd.org] On Behalf Of cheese-request at hbd.org Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:00 PM To: cheese at hbd.org Subject: Cheese Digest, Vol 21, Issue 7 Send Cheese mailing list submissions to cheese at hbd.org To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to cheese-request at hbd.org You can reach the person managing the list at cheese-owner at hbd.org When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific than "Re: Contents of Cheese digest..." Today's Topics: 1. Re: cheese coloring (Jack Schmidling) 2. Re: cheese coloring (Beth Hill) 3. Re: dying cheese (Linda Conroy) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Message: 1 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:35:00 -0600 From: Jack Schmidling Subject: Re: [Cheese] cheese coloring To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" Message-ID: <4694DC84.6090703 at mc.net> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed Beth Hill wrote: >i thot perhaps there would be a natural source > of coloring to use rather than artificial (food coloring). The standard coloring for cheese is Annatto, "a derivative of the achiote trees of tropical America". I guess that makes it "natural". Wikipedia has a nice article on it. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com ------------------------------ Message: 2 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 09:16:46 -0500 From: Beth Hill Subject: Re: [Cheese] cheese coloring To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" Message-ID: <35474500-44B6-4EAF-A23D-A5ACA55C9388 at mac.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" i have achiote powder for seasoning beans and rice. hmmm.. maybe i'll try it. i guess if it leaves a flavor behind, i can use my cheese in mexican dishes. :) i saw annatto in a catalog from where i got my cheese wax so at least i know i can get it if i want to. thanks again. Beth On Jul 11, 2007, at 8:35 AM, Jack Schmidling wrote: > Beth Hill wrote: >> i thot perhaps there would be a natural source >> of coloring to use rather than artificial (food coloring). > > The standard coloring for cheese is Annatto, "a derivative of the > achiote trees of tropical America". I guess that makes it "natural". > > Wikipedia has a nice article on it. > > js > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http:// > schmidling.com > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070711/c59b5bea/attachment -0001.html ------------------------------ Message: 3 Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 08:24:18 -0600 From: Linda Conroy Subject: Re: [Cheese] dying cheese To: cheese at hbd.org Message-ID: <200707111425.l6BEOdMF009103 at brew.hbd.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070711/d1f045a7/attachment -0001.html -------------- next part -------------- An embedded and charset-unspecified text was scrubbed... Name: not available Url: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20070711/d1f045a7/attachment -0001.ksh ------------------------------ _______________________________________________ Cheese mailing list Cheese at hbd.org http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese End of Cheese Digest, Vol 21, Issue 7 ************************************* From arf at mc.net Wed Jul 11 12:25:19 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 10:25:19 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] please remove In-Reply-To: <17513243266A5145B8349CE111D5EC31EA7298@smc-ms1.seawaymfg.com> References: <17513243266A5145B8349CE111D5EC31EA7298@smc-ms1.seawaymfg.com> Message-ID: <4695046F.6030901@mc.net> It's a do-it-yourself job here and instructions appear on every posting. js Bob Hersch wrote: > > -----Original Message----- > From: cheese-bounces at hbd.org [mailto:cheese-bounces at hbd.org] On Behalf > Of cheese-request at hbd.org > Sent: Wednesday, July 11, 2007 12:00 PM > To: cheese at hbd.org > Subject: Cheese Digest, Vol 21, Issue 7 > > Send Cheese mailing list submissions to > cheese at hbd.org > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > cheese-request at hbd.org > > You can reach the person managing the list at > cheese-owner at hbd.org > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Cheese digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: cheese coloring (Jack Schmidling) > 2. Re: cheese coloring (Beth Hill) > 3. Re: dying cheese (Linda Conroy) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 11 Jul 2007 07:35:00 -0600 > From: Jack Schmidling > Subject: Re: [Cheese] cheese coloring > To: "The Cheese Makers' Digest" > Message-ID: <4694DC84.6090703 at mc.net> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed > > Beth Hill wrote: > >>i thot perhaps there would be a natural source >>of coloring to use rather than artificial (food coloring). > > > The standard coloring for cheese is Annatto, "a derivative of the > achiote trees of tropical America". I guess that makes it "natural". > > Wikipedia has a nice article on it. > > js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From hotstuffme at yahoo.com Sat Jul 14 06:40:40 2007 From: hotstuffme at yahoo.com (Rita P) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 03:40:40 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk Message-ID: <971336.35981.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi all, Got my hands on a few liters of raw (unpasterised) organic jersey cow milk. I was thinking of making camembert from it. (I already have blue cheese maturing.) I have only made camembert with pasterised milk. Question: If using raw milk (which I will NOT pasterise), do I still have to add bacteria to the milk? Or will the milk provide its own bacteria, and is it the correct type? I'll search the net, but I would like to start the cheese in the next few hours. Anyone with enough experience here to help on this question? Thanks Rita Australia ____________________________________________________________________________________ Moody friends. Drama queens. Your life? Nope! - their life, your story. Play Sims Stories at Yahoo! Games. http://sims.yahoo.com/ From arf at mc.net Sat Jul 14 10:32:15 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:32:15 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk In-Reply-To: <971336.35981.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <971336.35981.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4698DE6F.5020306@mc.net> Rita P wrote: > Question: If using raw milk (which I will NOT > pasterise), do I still have to add bacteria to the > milk? Or will the milk provide its own bacteria, and > is it the correct type? It will not and certainly not produce Camembert. I fell into that trap on my first batch of fresh milk. There simply is not enough of the proper cultures in the fresh milk to get it going. Don't squander your treasure on shortcuts. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From hotstuffme at yahoo.com Sat Jul 14 11:00:04 2007 From: hotstuffme at yahoo.com (Rita P) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:00:04 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk In-Reply-To: <4698DE6F.5020306@mc.net> Message-ID: <449064.21629.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks Jack, So what you are saying, it will make camembert, but I still need to inoculate it with the correct culture/bacteria, to help nature to take the "correct path". Then later add the penicil. camembert? Or do you suggest I do something else with it? If I didn't already have enough blue, that's what I'd be doing with it, but I need some more camembert ... life does play nasty little tricks on you:) Thanks Jack .. Rita Australia --- Jack Schmidling wrote: > Rita P wrote: > > > Question: If using raw milk (which I will NOT > > pasterise), do I still have to add bacteria to the > > milk? Or will the milk provide its own bacteria, > and > > is it the correct type? > > It will not and certainly not produce Camembert. > > I fell into that trap on my first batch of fresh > milk. There simply is > not enough of the proper cultures in the fresh milk > to get it going. > > Don't squander your treasure on shortcuts. > > js > > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver > http://schmidling.com > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for a deal? Find great prices on flights and hotels with Yahoo! FareChase. http://farechase.yahoo.com/ From arf at mc.net Sat Jul 14 11:16:59 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 09:16:59 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk In-Reply-To: <449064.21629.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <449064.21629.qm@web53602.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4698E8EB.1000800@mc.net> Rita P wrote: > Thanks Jack, > So what you are saying, it will make camembert, but I > still need to inoculate it with the correct > culture/bacteria, to help nature to take the "correct > path". Then later add the penicil. camembert? The how to is described on my cheese page and Cam recipe. The advantage of unpasteurized milk is the much larger array of organisms and enzymes that give character to aged cheese compared to a select culture. The inoculated culture will assure that the cheese will work and acidify in the proper time frame. The other stuff will not even be noticed for months; so in a cheese like Cam, you probably have no advantage. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From hotstuffme at yahoo.com Sat Jul 14 11:17:03 2007 From: hotstuffme at yahoo.com (Rita P) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 08:17:03 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk In-Reply-To: <4698DE6F.5020306@mc.net> Message-ID: <596743.48241.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Jack, Just read your cheese site (again). Are you saying I SHOULD pasteurise the milk? If so, what then is the point of having raw milk, as I can buy retail bio dynamic organic full cream unhomoginised jersey cow milk. I thought I had a real treasure in the unpasteurised milk. (Apart from it being illegal to sell it here in Australia for human consumption - that's another story) Please correct my ignorance on this matter. Rita Australia --- Jack Schmidling wrote: > Rita P wrote: > > > Question: If using raw milk (which I will NOT > > pasterise), do I still have to add bacteria to the > > milk? Or will the milk provide its own bacteria, > and > > is it the correct type? > > It will not and certainly not produce Camembert. > > I fell into that trap on my first batch of fresh > milk. There simply is > not enough of the proper cultures in the fresh milk > to get it going. > > Don't squander your treasure on shortcuts. > > js > > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver > http://schmidling.com > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 From logeerplaats at cox.net Sat Jul 14 12:00:24 2007 From: logeerplaats at cox.net (logeerplaats@cox.net) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 9:00:24 -0700 Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk Message-ID: <12229409.1184428824231.JavaMail.root@fed1wml27.mgt.cox.net> Hi Rita, I followed your conversation and what I understand is as follows: Why waste great raw milk on camembert? Make something else out of it, as the results between raw and pasturized for camembert do not differ from using a different lower quality milk. Henriette ---- Rita P wrote: > Jack, > Just read your cheese site (again). Are you saying I > SHOULD pasteurise the milk? If so, what then is the > point of having raw milk, as I can buy retail bio > dynamic organic full cream unhomoginised jersey cow > milk. I thought I had a real treasure in the > unpasteurised milk. (Apart from it being illegal to > sell it here in Australia for human consumption - > that's another story) Please correct my ignorance on > this matter. > > Rita > Australia > > > --- Jack Schmidling wrote: > > > Rita P wrote: > > > > > Question: If using raw milk (which I will NOT > > > pasterise), do I still have to add bacteria to the > > > milk? Or will the milk provide its own bacteria, > > and > > > is it the correct type? > > > > It will not and certainly not produce Camembert. > > > > I fell into that trap on my first batch of fresh > > milk. There simply is > > not enough of the proper cultures in the fresh milk > > to get it going. > > > > Don't squander your treasure on shortcuts. > > > > js > > > > -- > > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver > > http://schmidling.com > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cheese mailing list > > Cheese at hbd.org > > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Be a better Globetrotter. Get better travel answers from someone who knows. Yahoo! Answers - Check it out. > http://answers.yahoo.com/dir/?link=list&sid=396545469 > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese From arf at mc.net Sat Jul 14 12:10:31 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 10:10:31 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk In-Reply-To: <596743.48241.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <596743.48241.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <4698F577.3040100@mc.net> Rita P wrote: > Jack, > Just read your cheese site (again). Are you saying I > SHOULD pasteurise the milk? If so, what then is the > point of having raw milk I think our emails are getting crossed as I believe I answered that in the last. If not, let me know. But basically, there is no advantage unless you are going to age the cheese for a year or more. This is not to be confused with homogenized milk. This is always the last choice and must be dealt with as described on my milk page. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From bac at NebrWesleyan.edu Sat Jul 14 15:33:50 2007 From: bac at NebrWesleyan.edu (Barbara Cornelius) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 14:33:50 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk In-Reply-To: <4698F577.3040100@mc.net> References: <596743.48241.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4698F577.3040100@mc.net> Message-ID: <20070714143350.29jn3dgvogk4g8oc@linda.nebrwesleyan.edu> I respectfully disagree; I've made camembert from both, and also plain fresh cheeses from both, and the taste is more complex and richer with the cheeses made from raw milk. I add the cultures to the warmed raw milk, the rennet, and then proceed as usual. Also, why make camembert like you can buy in a store? In the US, the only hope I have of a supply of raw milk camembert is to make it myself. I can buy a very good pasteurized version in the store. Just my 2 cents. Quoting Jack Schmidling : > Rita P wrote: >> Jack, >> Just read your cheese site (again). Are you saying I >> SHOULD pasteurise the milk? If so, what then is the >> point of having raw milk > > I think our emails are getting crossed as I believe I answered that in > the last. > > If not, let me know. > > > But basically, there is no advantage unless you are going to age the > cheese for a year or more. > > This is not to be confused with homogenized milk. This is always the > last choice and must be dealt with as described on my milk page. > > js > > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > From arf at mc.net Sun Jul 15 00:50:05 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Sat, 14 Jul 2007 22:50:05 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk In-Reply-To: <20070714143350.29jn3dgvogk4g8oc@linda.nebrwesleyan.edu> References: <596743.48241.qm@web53608.mail.re2.yahoo.com> <4698F577.3040100@mc.net> <20070714143350.29jn3dgvogk4g8oc@linda.nebrwesleyan.edu> Message-ID: <4699A77D.9010209@mc.net> Barbara Cornelius wrote: > I respectfully disagree; I've made camembert from both, and also plain > fresh cheeses from both, and the taste is more complex and richer with > the cheeses made from raw milk. I can buy a very good pasteurized version in the store. Can't argue with success but I have made it with fresh and pasteurized milk including Jersey and can't tell much difference. This is exactly the opposite of what I find with aged Cheddar. The older it gets, the more I can tell the difference between the pasteurized and unpasteurized. In fact, after 6 months, I don't find much change in pasteurized milk Cheddar. The real problem with commercial Cam/Brie is that it is not ripe when purchased and the producers never say a word about this. It is boring stuff so all the yuppies bake it to make it into goo and think they are eating fine cheese. The stuff has a very short shelf life when ripe. I suppose it could be ripened after purchase but I have never tried it. It's such an easy cheese to make and it works with just about any kind of milk. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From hotstuffme at yahoo.com Sun Jul 15 04:49:00 2007 From: hotstuffme at yahoo.com (Rita P) Date: Sun, 15 Jul 2007 01:49:00 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk - made In-Reply-To: <4699A77D.9010209@mc.net> Message-ID: <462778.95045.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Thanks all, After considering everything, I made the camembert, using the raw milk in its natural state. Added culture and did the normal thing. I had too little time to make too many changes in my plans and I didn't want to hold the milk any longer than absolutely necessary. The fresher the better in my book. It will be interesting to see if it differs. I get raves about the pasteurised camembert I make, from dedicated cheese eaters - so - it will be interesting, as along as I don't either kill them or make them sick:) I would have preferred to make one of the blues (probably gorganzola), but I've got enough blue maturing at the moment, and running out of camembert. Next time, I need to have a plan already worked out, so that I have the best style of cheese planned and ready to go - and the time at home to make sure it matures properly. Any suggestions other than cheddar? Thanks for all the comments .. Mark, I'm in Eltham ... good to talk cheese locally, Rita Melbourne, Australia --- "Mark E. in Oz" wrote: > Hi Rita, > > You most certainly do not need to pasteurise the > milk. It will need the > cultures added as normal, and the Pen added either > before renneting directly > and/or after the forming with the spray on business > ( depends what methods > spin your wheels!) > > Let me know if you need anymore help. > -- > Cheers > > Mark E. in Oz (Melb) > ---------------- > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 From lou02 at aapt.net.au Mon Jul 16 21:27:38 2007 From: lou02 at aapt.net.au (lou02@aapt.net.au) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 11:27:38 +1000 Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk - made In-Reply-To: <462778.95045.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <462778.95045.qm@web53612.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1184635658.469c1b0a7c733@webmail.aapt.net.au> Hi Rita I make all my cheese with raw milk and have no problems. If you can make a type of cheese with past. milk then you can use raw milk. Tina (Gold Coast) Quoting Rita P : > Thanks all, > After considering everything, I made the camembert, > using the raw milk in its natural state. Added > culture and did the normal thing. I had too little > time to make too many changes in my plans and I didn't > want to hold the milk any longer than absolutely > necessary. The fresher the better in my book. It > will be interesting to see if it differs. I get raves > about the pasteurised camembert I make, from dedicated > cheese eaters - so - it will be interesting, as along > as I don't either kill them or make them sick:) > > I would have preferred to make one of the blues > (probably gorganzola), but I've got enough blue > maturing at the moment, and running out of camembert. > > Next time, I need to have a plan already worked out, > so that I have the best style of cheese planned and > ready to go - and the time at home to make sure it > matures properly. Any suggestions other than cheddar? > > Thanks for all the comments .. > > Mark, I'm in Eltham ... good to talk cheese locally, > > Rita > Melbourne, Australia > > > > --- "Mark E. in Oz" wrote: > > > Hi Rita, > > > > You most certainly do not need to pasteurise the > > milk. It will need the > > cultures added as normal, and the Pen added either > > before renneting directly > > and/or after the forming with the spray on business > > ( depends what methods > > spin your wheels!) > > > > Let me know if you need anymore help. > > -- > > Cheers > > > > Mark E. in Oz (Melb) > > ---------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's > Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > From hotstuffme at yahoo.com Tue Jul 17 03:30:12 2007 From: hotstuffme at yahoo.com (Rita P) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:30:12 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk - made In-Reply-To: <1184635658.469c1b0a7c733@webmail.aapt.net.au> Message-ID: <56813.23221.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Hi Tina, Thanks for those words. I keep reading that it's unsafe! I was brought up on unpasteurised milk products in the early 50's. My father made cheese etc at home. (European war migrants:)) I also have it everytime I go to Europe, (every second year), so I think I'm immune, but I'm hesitant about giving my cheese to anyone else. In your experience, what would be the BEST cheese to make with the raw milk. Rita Melbourne, Australia --- lou02 at aapt.net.au wrote: > Hi Rita > > I make all my cheese with raw milk and have no > problems. If you can make a type > of cheese with past. milk then you can use raw milk. > > Tina (Gold Coast) > > Quoting Rita P : > > > Thanks all, > > After considering everything, I made the > camembert, > > using the raw milk in its natural state. Added > > culture and did the normal thing. I had too > little > > time to make too many changes in my plans and I > didn't > > want to hold the milk any longer than absolutely > > necessary. The fresher the better in my book. It > > will be interesting to see if it differs. I get > raves > > about the pasteurised camembert I make, from > dedicated > > cheese eaters - so - it will be interesting, as > along > > as I don't either kill them or make them sick:) > > > > I would have preferred to make one of the blues > > (probably gorganzola), but I've got enough blue > > maturing at the moment, and running out of > camembert. > > > > Next time, I need to have a plan already worked > out, > > so that I have the best style of cheese planned > and > > ready to go - and the time at home to make sure it > > matures properly. Any suggestions other than > cheddar? > > > > Thanks for all the comments .. > > > > Mark, I'm in Eltham ... good to talk cheese > locally, > > > > Rita > > Melbourne, Australia > > > > > > > > --- "Mark E. in Oz" wrote: > > > > > Hi Rita, > > > > > > You most certainly do not need to pasteurise the > > > milk. It will need the > > > cultures added as normal, and the Pen added > either > > > before renneting directly > > > and/or after the forming with the spray on > business > > > ( depends what methods > > > spin your wheels!) > > > > > > Let me know if you need anymore help. > > > -- > > > Cheers > > > > > > Mark E. in Oz (Melb) > > > ---------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's > > Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. > > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 > > _______________________________________________ > > Cheese mailing list > > Cheese at hbd.org > > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > ____________________________________________________________________________________ TV dinner still cooling? Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. http://tv.yahoo.com/ From arf at mc.net Tue Jul 17 08:26:46 2007 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Tue, 17 Jul 2007 06:26:46 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk - made In-Reply-To: <56813.23221.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <56813.23221.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <469CB586.9080508@mc.net> Rita P wrote: > Hi Tina, > Thanks for those words. I keep reading that it's > unsafe! Raw milk is POTENTIALLY unsafe but keep in mind that the big concern in the good old days was TB. As this has been nearly eliminated from the environment, the risk these days is much less. Further keep in mind that most of that risk was from DRINKING it raw. When we make cheese, we produce acid which provides an environment not conducive to most pathogenic organisms. The longer a cheese ages, the less likely that these organisms will survive. It is generally accepted that a cheese aged for 6 months or more is probably safe. The risk increases inversely with the age so knowing the history of the cow becomes important for fresh cheeses or milk. If you buy if from a farmer whose family drinks it and is healthy, there is little reason to worry. If you buy from a dairy blending milk from many cows, you have something to think about. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From lou02 at aapt.net.au Wed Jul 18 02:44:19 2007 From: lou02 at aapt.net.au (lou02@aapt.net.au) Date: Wed, 18 Jul 2007 16:44:19 +1000 Subject: [Cheese] camembert with raw milk - made In-Reply-To: <56813.23221.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> References: <56813.23221.qm@web53610.mail.re2.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <1184741059.469db6c38c549@webmail.aapt.net.au> Hi Rita I make quite a few types of cheese. It really is a personnal taste preferrence as to the type of cheese that is best for you to make below is the list of cheeses' that I have made. Blue Vein (made for someone else) Bocconcini Brie Caerphilly Camembert both types but liked modern best. Cheddar Cheese farm style Fetta both goat and cow Gouda and Edam Halloumi Havarti Mozzarella Parmesan Ricotta whey and whole types Washed rind soft White Wensleydale Butter Hope you have fun experementing with raw milk it is all I use and we have not been sick at all. I have my own cows. Regards Tina Quoting Rita P : > Hi Tina, > Thanks for those words. I keep reading that it's > unsafe! I was brought up on unpasteurised milk > products in the early 50's. My father made cheese etc > at home. (European war migrants:)) I also have it > everytime I go to Europe, (every second year), so I > think I'm immune, but I'm hesitant about giving my > cheese to anyone else. > In your experience, what would be the BEST cheese to > make with the raw milk. > > Rita > Melbourne, Australia > > > --- lou02 at aapt.net.au wrote: > > > Hi Rita > > > > I make all my cheese with raw milk and have no > > problems. If you can make a type > > of cheese with past. milk then you can use raw milk. > > > > Tina (Gold Coast) > > > > Quoting Rita P : > > > > > Thanks all, > > > After considering everything, I made the > > camembert, > > > using the raw milk in its natural state. Added > > > culture and did the normal thing. I had too > > little > > > time to make too many changes in my plans and I > > didn't > > > want to hold the milk any longer than absolutely > > > necessary. The fresher the better in my book. It > > > will be interesting to see if it differs. I get > > raves > > > about the pasteurised camembert I make, from > > dedicated > > > cheese eaters - so - it will be interesting, as > > along > > > as I don't either kill them or make them sick:) > > > > > > I would have preferred to make one of the blues > > > (probably gorganzola), but I've got enough blue > > > maturing at the moment, and running out of > > camembert. > > > > > > Next time, I need to have a plan already worked > > out, > > > so that I have the best style of cheese planned > > and > > > ready to go - and the time at home to make sure it > > > matures properly. Any suggestions other than > > cheddar? > > > > > > Thanks for all the comments .. > > > > > > Mark, I'm in Eltham ... good to talk cheese > > locally, > > > > > > Rita > > > Melbourne, Australia > > > > > > > > > > > > --- "Mark E. in Oz" wrote: > > > > > > > Hi Rita, > > > > > > > > You most certainly do not need to pasteurise the > > > > milk. It will need the > > > > cultures added as normal, and the Pen added > > either > > > > before renneting directly > > > > and/or after the forming with the spray on > > business > > > > ( depends what methods > > > > spin your wheels!) > > > > > > > > Let me know if you need anymore help. > > > > -- > > > > Cheers > > > > > > > > Mark E. in Oz (Melb) > > > > ---------------- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > > > Sick sense of humor? Visit Yahoo! TV's > > > Comedy with an Edge to see what's on, when. > > > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/222 > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Cheese mailing list > > > Cheese at hbd.org > > > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > > > > > > > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > > Cheese mailing list > > Cheese at hbd.org > > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > > > > > > > ____________________________________________________________________________________ > TV dinner still cooling? > Check out "Tonight's Picks" on Yahoo! TV. > http://tv.yahoo.com/ > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese >