From hombrewdude at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 00:26:33 2008 From: hombrewdude at yahoo.com (hombrewdude) Date: Wed, 02 Jan 2008 23:26:33 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] How much mold on Stilton? In-Reply-To: <46EC16CC.4000409@yahoo.com> References: <46EB57DA.1050802@yahoo.com> <008501c7f7bb$6593f990$6a4dd458@tissemand> <46EC16CC.4000409@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <477C7209.7090900@yahoo.com> It is now 3 months later. My water pan method did not seem to work, the cheese started to get too dry. I moved them to a ziplock bag that I left 50% open. The cheese is also been stored rather cool 45-50F The mold is black and white. Am I still ok? I can post pictures if it will help? Should I scrape and mold? Wipe with salt? Poke holes?? hombrewdude wrote: > This is 3 weeks old now. > I just wonder if I have too much mold? > Should I wide it with salt water? > >> >> >> >>> I tried to make my first mold type cheese. >>> >>> I used a store bought culture and added it to the milk. >>> >>> I now have 2 1lb rounds of cheese on a grate over a pan of water in >>> a 50F fridge. >>> >>> The green fuzzy mold is over 75% of the surface. >>> >>> What should I do next? >>> >> >> How old is it ? >> >> Generally speaking, "furry" cheeses start to soften when they are >> ready to eat.. >> >> The older it gets, the stronger it tastes.. >> >> /peter >> >> _______________________________________________ >> Cheese mailing list >> Cheese at hbd.org >> http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese >> >> >> > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080102/1c6d2837/attachment-0002.html From arf at mc.net Thu Jan 3 08:41:47 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 05:41:47 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] How much mold on Stilton? In-Reply-To: <477C7209.7090900@yahoo.com> References: <46EB57DA.1050802@yahoo.com> <008501c7f7bb$6593f990$6a4dd458@tissemand> <46EC16CC.4000409@yahoo.com> <477C7209.7090900@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <477CE61B.5050300@mc.net> hombrewdude wrote: > It is now 3 months later. > My water pan method did not seem to work, the cheese started to get too > dry. The water pan method never works. It is a bit of nonsense that keeps being repeated over and over. > I moved them to a ziplock bag that I left 50% open. > The cheese is also been stored rather cool 45-50F If it spent 3 months drying out, it may never recover. You must control the humidity from the beginning. As described on my Stilton page, the best way to do that is in a plastic shoe box with the lid open a bit. Get a hygrometer and monitor the humidity till you get a feel for what it takes. > The mold is black and white. Probably not black. White, orange, blue, green... all normal. > > Am I still ok? Taste it and find out. > Should I scrape and mold? Wipe with salt? Poke holes?? Start over and do it right as per my recipe for example. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From bobbin_lace at dswebnet.com Thu Jan 3 12:41:33 2008 From: bobbin_lace at dswebnet.com (Barbara Witt) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 09:41:33 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? Message-ID: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> Where can I find information on making goat milk cheese? Thanks, Barb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080103/5ca31807/attachment-0002.html From Mark.Bignell at hq.dodea.edu Thu Jan 3 12:53:19 2008 From: Mark.Bignell at hq.dodea.edu (Bignell, Mark S CIV DoDEA) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 12:53:19 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? In-Reply-To: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> References: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> Message-ID: <5AC1A3E66A01DC42BBC6F06A92A69F0D018F79CD@HQ-EX2.hq.ds.dodea.edu> Hi Barb, I like www.fias-cofarm.com I made some really great cheeses using their recipes. Mark ________________________________ From: cheese-bounces at hbd.org [mailto:cheese-bounces at hbd.org] On Behalf Of Barbara Witt Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:42 PM To: cheese at hbd.org Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? Where can I find information on making goat milk cheese? Thanks, Barb -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080103/c57440b7/attachment-0002.html -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: image/gif Size: 4488 bytes Desc: image001.gif Url : http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080103/c57440b7/attachment-0002.gif From hombrewdude at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 17:38:57 2008 From: hombrewdude at yahoo.com (hombrewdude) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 16:38:57 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] How much mold on Stilton? In-Reply-To: <477CE61B.5050300@mc.net> References: <46EB57DA.1050802@yahoo.com> <008501c7f7bb$6593f990$6a4dd458@tissemand> <46EC16CC.4000409@yahoo.com> <477C7209.7090900@yahoo.com> <477CE61B.5050300@mc.net> Message-ID: <477D6401.3090300@yahoo.com> So I should just throw this away??? That doesn't make much sense... Why would my ziplock bag be any different then your plastic shoe box method? Jack Schmidling wrote: > hombrewdude wrote: > >> It is now 3 months later. >> My water pan method did not seem to work, the cheese started to get too >> dry. >> > > > The water pan method never works. It is a bit of nonsense that keeps > being repeated over and over. > > >> I moved them to a ziplock bag that I left 50% open. >> The cheese is also been stored rather cool 45-50F >> > > If it spent 3 months drying out, it may never recover. You must control > the humidity from the beginning. > > As described on my Stilton page, the best way to do that is in a plastic > shoe box with the lid open a bit. Get a hygrometer and monitor the > humidity till you get a feel for what it takes. > > > >> The mold is black and white. >> > > Probably not black. White, orange, blue, green... all normal. > >> Am I still ok? >> > > Taste it and find out. > > >> Should I scrape and mold? Wipe with salt? Poke holes?? >> > > Start over and do it right as per my recipe for example. > > js > > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080103/79f73872/attachment-0002.html From landonmorgan at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 16:56:25 2008 From: landonmorgan at gmail.com (Landon Morgan) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:56:25 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? Message-ID: <733b93bf0801031356u7b4f1ad0n8cbfcae58bebac23@mail.gmail.com> Just wondering- the mailing list concept is kinda dated. I have the domain name talkcheese.com and could easily put up a bulletin board system. This would allow the information and data to be a bit more accessible. Any interest in this? Let me know. landonmorgan at gmail.com -- Landon S. Morgan St. Augustine, FL ___________________________ This email account is used for personal and business communications by the sender. All correspondence contained herein should be considered a privileged communication between recipient and sender. Contents of this email shall not be released or retransmitted without the explicit consent of both parties. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080103/7afea6fe/attachment-0002.html From arf at mc.net Thu Jan 3 18:43:53 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:43:53 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: <733b93bf0801031356u7b4f1ad0n8cbfcae58bebac23@mail.gmail.com> References: <733b93bf0801031356u7b4f1ad0n8cbfcae58bebac23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <477D7339.3040203@mc.net> Landon Morgan wrote: > Just wondering- the mailing list concept is kinda dated. So is money but it works just fine. > I have the domain name talkcheese.com and could easily put up a > bulletin board system. This would allow the information and data to be a bit > more accessible. I think you need to be a bit more explicit. What is a bulletin board system? What does it offer better than this? The community is small enough... what is gained by spreading it thinner? I will also bet that there will be ads and commercials on your BBS? js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From arf at mc.net Thu Jan 3 18:48:40 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:48:40 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] How much mold on Stilton? In-Reply-To: <477D6401.3090300@yahoo.com> References: <46EB57DA.1050802@yahoo.com> <008501c7f7bb$6593f990$6a4dd458@tissemand> <46EC16CC.4000409@yahoo.com> <477C7209.7090900@yahoo.com> <477CE61B.5050300@mc.net> <477D6401.3090300@yahoo.com> Message-ID: <477D7458.4040809@mc.net> hombrewdude wrote: > So I should just throw this away??? > > That doesn't make much sense... That was your idea. I would taste it first. You might like it.. just change the name if it's good. > Why would my ziplock bag be any different then your plastic shoe box > method? It's not if you can control the opening and humidity with it but the shoebox seems easier. However, you implied that you started the bag treatment 3 months too late. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From arf at mc.net Thu Jan 3 18:54:18 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 15:54:18 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? In-Reply-To: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> References: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> Message-ID: <477D75AA.4030304@mc.net> Barbara Witt wrote: > Where can I find information on making goat milk cheese? There really is little difference in the process but goat milk usually has less fat so hard cheeses do not generally work out as well. However, it is easy to correct this problem if you add extra cream to the milk. This doesn't help much is you raise only goats and want to be self sufficient but life is not fair. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From zymy66 at yahoo.com Thu Jan 3 19:09:32 2008 From: zymy66 at yahoo.com (the zymurgist) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 16:09:32 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Cheese] parmesan cheese recipe In-Reply-To: <477D7458.4040809@mc.net> Message-ID: <853297.27121.qm@web35502.mail.mud.yahoo.com> does any one have a good recipe and process for making parmesan cheese? Thank you ____________________________________________________________________________________ Never miss a thing. Make Yahoo your home page. http://www.yahoo.com/r/hs From heidi at slowboil.com Thu Jan 3 19:20:00 2008 From: heidi at slowboil.com (Heidi Angove) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:50:00 +1030 Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: <477D7339.3040203@mc.net> References: <733b93bf0801031356u7b4f1ad0n8cbfcae58bebac23@mail.gmail.com> <477D7339.3040203@mc.net> Message-ID: <1bb7ad130801031620q4898ba17n89801060425c420f@mail.gmail.com> I'm pretty happy with a mailing list. This way I get information slowly and without searching. I'm just a lurker but love being a part of the list. I'm yet to start really making anything beyond marscapone and ricotta and am learning so much before I take the big leap that I wouldn't have thought to search for or ask .. So a big thank you to you all for sharing your knowledge and please don't let the list disappear. On 1/4/08, Jack Schmidling wrote: > > Landon Morgan wrote: > > Just wondering- the mailing list concept is kinda dated. > > So is money but it works just fine. > > > I have the domain name talkcheese.com and could easily put up a > > bulletin board system. This would allow the information and data to be a > bit > > more accessible. > > I think you need to be a bit more explicit. What is a bulletin board > system? What does it offer better than this? The community is small > enough... what is gained by spreading it thinner? > > I will also bet that there will be ads and commercials on your BBS? > > js > > > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080104/3db06f76/attachment-0002.html From jabbott at abbotts.org Thu Jan 3 18:32:19 2008 From: jabbott at abbotts.org (jabbott@abbotts.org) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 17:32:19 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: <733b93bf0801031356u7b4f1ad0n8cbfcae58bebac23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: I assume you are talking about a forum? Like phpBB or something? I would be willing to help out with that. The nice thing about going that route rather than the list is it is easier to search old posts. --ja On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Landon Morgan wrote: > Just wondering- the mailing list concept is kinda dated. > I have the domain name talkcheese.com and could easily put up a > bulletin board system. This would allow the information and data to be a bit > more accessible. > Any interest in this? > Let me know. > > landonmorgan at gmail.com > > -- From bac at NebrWesleyan.edu Thu Jan 3 19:36:27 2008 From: bac at NebrWesleyan.edu (Barbara Cornelius) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 18:36:27 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? In-Reply-To: <477D75AA.4030304@mc.net> References: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> <477D75AA.4030304@mc.net> Message-ID: <20080103183627.10mw5ahoasg480oc@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> I'm sorry, but this is just not true. Usually goat milk has a little *more* fat than cow milk; 10 grams of fat per 8oz goat milk compared to 8 to 9 grams of fat for the same amount of cow milk. For more information about that, see this website: http://fiascofarm.com/dairy/goatmilk-breakdown.html Fias Co Farm's website is also a good place to find out about making soft and hard goat cheeses. There are many, many traditional hard cheeses made from goat milk. They are no more difficult than cow milk cheeses, but you do need to adjust your 'cooking' temperatures down somewhat, and use differing amounts of rennet. It all depends on what sort of cheese you ware wanting to make. I have found a great resource of information and help to be this Yahoo group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/GoatCheesePlus/ It's made up of dairy owners, goat cheese makers, beginning and advanced. I think you'll find it useful. I hope this helps! Barbara Quoting Jack Schmidling : > Barbara Witt wrote: >> Where can I find information on making goat milk cheese? > > There really is little difference in the process but goat milk usually > has less fat so hard cheeses do not generally work out as well. > However, it is easy to correct this problem if you add extra cream to > the milk. > > This doesn't help much is you raise only goats and want to be self > sufficient but life is not fair. > > js > > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080103/a0907dcf/attachment-0002.html From arf at mc.net Thu Jan 3 20:10:52 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 17:10:52 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? In-Reply-To: <20080103183627.10mw5ahoasg480oc@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> References: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> <477D75AA.4030304@mc.net> <20080103183627.10mw5ahoasg480oc@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> Message-ID: <477D879C.4070304@mc.net> Barbara Cornelius wrote: > > > I'm sorry, but this is just not true. Usually goat milk has a little > *more* fat than cow milk; I stand corrected but there is something about the fat that makes it difficult to produce a cheddar type cheese. Something to do with the globule size which makes it similar to homogenized cow milk. Is it not true that one can not separate the fat with a separator to make cream and butter with goat milk? I confess limited experience with goat milk and not having milk goats, the cost makes it not worth further investigation. I made two batches from fresh goat milk and they both turned out hard as bricks. Nice grating cheese but no joy. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From bac at NebrWesleyan.edu Thu Jan 3 22:17:48 2008 From: bac at NebrWesleyan.edu (Barbara Cornelius) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 21:17:48 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? In-Reply-To: <477D879C.4070304@mc.net> References: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> <477D75AA.4030304@mc.net> <20080103183627.10mw5ahoasg480oc@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> <477D879C.4070304@mc.net> Message-ID: <20080103211748.9raa48viss88cs00@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> Quoting Jack Schmidling : > Barbara Cornelius wrote: >> >> >> ? ?I'm sorry, but this is just not true. Usually goat milk has a? little >> *more* fat than cow milk; > > I stand corrected but there is something about the fat that makes it > difficult to produce a cheddar type cheese.? Something to do with the > globule size which makes it similar to homogenized cow milk. > > Is it not true that one can not separate the fat with a separator to > make cream and butter with goat milk? > > I confess limited experience with goat milk and not having milk goats, > the cost makes it not worth further investigation.? I made two batches > from fresh goat milk and they both turned out hard as bricks.? Nice > grating cheese but no joy. Goat milk is naturally homogenized. It has smaller fat globules, although the milk can be separated from the cream with a separator. If you let a jar of it set for a couple of days, you can see that some of the milkfat does rise to the top. There are several makers of really good goat cheddar, although I have no idea exactly what they have to do differently from cow cheddar to make it.? I have a local source for goat milk, and I've used it to make 50/50 goat-cow hard cheeses, but not cheddar. What I don't know about goat milk and goat cheeses FAR exceeds what I do know, however :) Try Fias Co Farm's site, and definitely look at this site: http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Fankhauser/Cheese/Cheese.html He has goats and is also a biology prof who teaches his students about fermentation, yeasts, etc. by making cheese, beer, bread, etc. He uses his goats' milk in his cheeses, and puts up all kinds of recipes. Barbara ? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080103/e6a548ca/attachment-0002.html From landonmorgan at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 22:45:25 2008 From: landonmorgan at gmail.com (Landon Morgan) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:45:25 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: <477D7339.3040203@mc.net> References: <733b93bf0801031356u7b4f1ad0n8cbfcae58bebac23@mail.gmail.com> <477D7339.3040203@mc.net> Message-ID: <733b93bf0801031945m3ece3c45l509555c0df0f68fe@mail.gmail.com> "So is money but it works just fine." There's a difference between something that "works" and something that "works well" "I think you need to be a bit more explicit. What is a bulletin board system? What does it offer better than this? The community is small enough... what is gained by spreading it thinner?" A bulletin board system is a format for discussion that allows the topics, pictures and conversations to be viewed as their own medium in a "forum setting" rather than as a series of unique, topical email communiques sent to subscribing participants. It wouldn't serve to "spread the community thinner" but rather would serve to start a forum and community with a base of knowledgeable people- the people of this mailing list- that could eventually grow larger. Fact is, hamstringing the community to a mailing list isn't exactly conducive to growth. Cheesemaking is a narrow enough field of interest that it's probably best to remain reasonably progressive as a community rather than lodged in old formats with wildly inferior functionality. I envision a BBS system where cheesemakers from all over the world can come together to post pictures and share knowledge with each other. As far as ads, maybe there would be, but I can assure you, this isn't a venture for profit and almost certainly wouldn't ever be lucrative. There just aren't enough cheesemakers out there to hope for a payday as a result of this, but there are enough out there to warrant a new, updated format for discussion. Anyway, that's my case for it. I would welcome any other opinions. On Jan 3, 2008 6:43 PM, Jack Schmidling wrote: > Landon Morgan wrote: > > Just wondering- the mailing list concept is kinda dated. > > So is money but it works just fine. > > > I have the domain name talkcheese.com and could easily put up a > > bulletin board system. This would allow the information and data to be a > bit > > more accessible. > > I think you need to be a bit more explicit. What is a bulletin board > system? What does it offer better than this? The community is small > enough... what is gained by spreading it thinner? > > I will also bet that there will be ads and commercials on your BBS? > > js > > > -- > PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm > Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > -- Landon S. Morgan St. Augustine, FL ___________________________ This email account is used for personal and business communications by the sender. All correspondence contained herein should be considered a privileged communication between recipient and sender. Contents of this email shall not be released or retransmitted without the explicit consent of both parties. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080103/68aaba56/attachment-0002.html From landonmorgan at gmail.com Thu Jan 3 22:50:10 2008 From: landonmorgan at gmail.com (Landon Morgan) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 22:50:10 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: References: <733b93bf0801031356u7b4f1ad0n8cbfcae58bebac23@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <733b93bf0801031950h40dc1ab9t2159d4b73a8edb82@mail.gmail.com> And as an aside... it wouldn't make the list "disappear". The list could continue as it pleased. It would simply provide a format with modern functionality that would allow us all to discuss this stuff in a way that is very efficient. The forum would be very, very small to start off with and would have extremely limited activity. That's for sure. On Jan 3, 2008 6:32 PM, < jabbott at abbotts.org> wrote: > > I assume you are talking about a forum? Like phpBB or something? I would > be willing to help out with that. > > The nice thing about going that route rather than the list is it is easier > to search old posts. > > --ja > > On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Landon Morgan wrote: > > > Just wondering- the mailing list concept is kinda dated. > > I have the domain name talkcheese.com and could easily put up a > > bulletin board system. This would allow the information and data to be a > bit > > more accessible. > > Any interest in this? > > Let me know. > > > > landonmorgan at gmail.com > > > > > > -- > > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > -- Landon S. Morgan St. Augustine, FL ___________________________ This email account is used for personal and business communications by the sender. All correspondence contained herein should be considered a privileged communication between recipient and sender. Contents of this email shall not be released or retransmitted without the explicit consent of both parties. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080103/335f674c/attachment-0002.html From arf at mc.net Thu Jan 3 23:41:05 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Thu, 03 Jan 2008 20:41:05 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: <733b93bf0801031945m3ece3c45l509555c0df0f68fe@mail.gmail.com> References: <733b93bf0801031356u7b4f1ad0n8cbfcae58bebac23@mail.gmail.com> <477D7339.3040203@mc.net> <733b93bf0801031945m3ece3c45l509555c0df0f68fe@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <477DB8E1.3060108@mc.net> Landon Morgan wrote: > A bulletin board system is a format for discussion that allows the topics, > pictures and conversations to be viewed as their own medium in a "forum > setting"...... What is a forum setting? >rather than as a series of unique, topical email communiques sent > to subscribing participants. Seems like what a forum is all about. I still do not understand what it is you are after that isn't covered in this format. >It wouldn't serve to "spread the community > thinner" but rather would serve to start a forum and community with a base > of knowledgeable people- the people of this mailing list- that could > eventually grow larger. How could it not spread us thinner? What you describe is exactly what we do here. > Fact is, hamstringing the community to a mailing list isn't exactly > conducive to growth. How's that hamstringing work? And quality of information is far more important than growth unless you are interested in selling advertising. >Cheesemaking is a narrow enough field of interest that > it's probably best to remain reasonably progressive as a community rather > than lodged in old formats with wildly inferior functionality. Psychobabble. > I envision a BBS system where cheesemakers from all over the world can come > together to post pictures and share knowledge with each other. That's what we do here. > As far as ads, maybe there would be, but I can assure you, this isn't a > venture for profit and almost certainly wouldn't ever be lucrative..... I am having a hard time coming up with another reason why someone would purchase a domain name such as talkcheese.com and then enter an existing list and suggest we all move to your totally modern and updated forum. Nor do I understand why anyone would move to be exposed to advertising. When nothing makes sense,.... follow the money trail. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From jabbott at abbotts.org Fri Jan 4 00:52:45 2008 From: jabbott at abbotts.org (jabbott@abbotts.org) Date: Thu, 3 Jan 2008 23:52:45 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: <477DB8E1.3060108@mc.net> Message-ID: I run a forum for people who heat their houses with corn. You can take a look at it at http://forum.iburncorn.com if you want to see what a forum could be like. At least it would kind of give you an idea of what this guy is proposing. The nice thing about it is it is easy to go into it and search for past messages. It is easy for people to tell about what they are doing. Pictures are a plus. We have a guy right now talking to the list about the dryness and quantity of mold on his cheese. Wouldn't it be nice to see a picture? I feel like Jack, you have a lot of really great information and knowlege it would be wonderful to get into one spot where it is easy to find. The list serv format is hard for new people to use and understand. I think Landon is correct you could atract some new users, get some additional opinions, and I know I would learn lots by having a forum format. Domain names are cheap to purchase. ~$30 a year, maybe less at some of the discount registration places. As far as following the money trail, well, that would be a pretty short trail. Pay per click advertising is a great way to make coffee money, but not much more. I am sure he could cover his $30/year but I wouldn't bet on much more. People just don't click on the ads the way the did years ago. In a few years, if it really takes off, he might get some sponsership money. ...not exactly something you retire on either... I started my corn burner's forum because I had just bought a burner, the instruction manual totally sucked, and there wasn't a whole lot of information on the net about how to run the darned thing. I started to write down some of my experiences, as I sat down in the basement watching this heater plug up and have all sorts of other troubles. I started the forum because I seem to have no skill with fire, but great skills with computers. I figured if I contributed what I could to the community, I could lurk and listen to all the people who knew more than I did about heating with corn. It has worked out great for me. And, I have about 3000 members who visit my forum and ask questions, answer questions, and generally chat about the topic they love. --ja On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Jack Schmidling wrote: > Landon Morgan wrote: > > > A bulletin board system is a format for discussion that allows the topics, > > pictures and conversations to be viewed as their own medium in a "forum > > setting"...... > > What is a forum setting? > > >rather than as a series of unique, topical email communiques sent > > to subscribing participants. > > Seems like what a forum is all about. I still do not understand what it > is you are after that isn't covered in this format. > > >It wouldn't serve to "spread the community > > thinner" but rather would serve to start a forum and community with a base > > of knowledgeable people- the people of this mailing list- that could > > eventually grow larger. > > How could it not spread us thinner? What you describe is exactly what > we do here. > > > Fact is, hamstringing the community to a mailing list isn't exactly > > conducive to growth. > > How's that hamstringing work? And quality of information is far more > important than growth unless you are interested in selling advertising. > > >Cheesemaking is a narrow enough field of interest that > > it's probably best to remain reasonably progressive as a community rather > > than lodged in old formats with wildly inferior functionality. > > Psychobabble. > > > I envision a BBS system where cheesemakers from all over the world can come > > together to post pictures and share knowledge with each other. > > That's what we do here. > > > As far as ads, maybe there would be, but I can assure you, this isn't a > > venture for profit and almost certainly wouldn't ever be lucrative..... > > I am having a hard time coming up with another reason why someone would > purchase a domain name such as talkcheese.com and then enter an existing > list and suggest we all move to your totally modern and updated forum. > Nor do I understand why anyone would move to be exposed to advertising. > > When nothing makes sense,.... follow the money trail. > > js > > -- From mila.bulic at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 07:50:44 2008 From: mila.bulic at gmail.com (mila bulic) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:50:44 -0300 Subject: [Cheese] new to cheese making Message-ID: I am new to cheese making and new to this group. I have been reading the threads and have found that there is a great deal of diversity with respect to experience in this group so I suspect I can learn a lot. I was not interested in making my own cheese before but since I have moved to northern Chile I have discovered that if I want cheese I am going to have to make it myself. We only have two kinds here--white and white--and I can barely tell the difference (one is gauda and the other is montecuso).... since I am a bit of a rat and love variety in my cheese, making cheese myself seems to be a good idea. Well, it is a good idea until you start trying to make it with all the wrong ingredients. There is a lot of information on the web on the subject and I have read a lot of it but I still have a lot of questions so I will begin to ask them--I didn't bother before because I did not have a source of fresh milk; living in the Atacama Desert is not exactly good grazing land, hahaha, and there are only two small, fertile valleys where it would be possible to get the milk--otherwise we only have UHT milk and I learned the hard way that you can't make cheese with that. Anyway, the first of my questions, before I waste any more of the culture that I purchased in the States, has to do with cultures. I can make the culture known as MMA myself as well as the thermophyllic culture--but how can I culture the MMW? It is an entirely different bacteria strain. Should I just buy some from the States and then try to culture it on my own? If so, how? If someone knows the answer to this first, of many questions to come, I would appreciate your help. Thanks a lot! Mila -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080104/6920344c/attachment-0002.html From mila.bulic at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 07:56:07 2008 From: mila.bulic at gmail.com (mila bulic) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:56:07 -0300 Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? In-Reply-To: <20080103211748.9raa48viss88cs00@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> References: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> <477D75AA.4030304@mc.net> <20080103183627.10mw5ahoasg480oc@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> <477D879C.4070304@mc.net> <20080103211748.9raa48viss88cs00@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> Message-ID: I read that you need to use calcium chloride in goat's milk in order to make a proper cheese... On Jan 4, 2008 12:17 AM, Barbara Cornelius wrote: > Quoting Jack Schmidling : > > > Barbara Cornelius wrote: > >> > >> > >> I'm sorry, but this is just not true. Usually goat milk has a little > >> *more* fat than cow milk; > > > > I stand corrected but there is something about the fat that makes it > > difficult to produce a cheddar type cheese. Something to do with the > > globule size which makes it similar to homogenized cow milk. > > > > Is it not true that one can not separate the fat with a separator to > > make cream and butter with goat milk? > > > > I confess limited experience with goat milk and not having milk goats, > > the cost makes it not worth further investigation. I made two batches > > from fresh goat milk and they both turned out hard as bricks. Nice > > grating cheese but no joy. > > Goat milk is naturally homogenized. It has smaller fat globules, although > the milk can be separated from the cream with a separator. If you let a jar > of it set for a couple of days, you can see that some of the milkfat does > rise to the top. > > There are several makers of really good goat cheddar, although I have no > idea exactly what they have to do differently from cow cheddar to make it. > I have a local source for goat milk, and I've used it to make 50/50 goat-cow > hard cheeses, but not cheddar. > > What I don't know about goat milk and goat cheeses FAR exceeds what I do > know, however :) Try Fias Co Farm's site, and definitely look at this site: > http://biology.clc.uc.edu/Fankhauser/Cheese/Cheese.html > > He has goats and is also a biology prof who teaches his students about > fermentation, yeasts, etc. by making cheese, beer, bread, etc. He uses his > goats' milk in his cheeses, and puts up all kinds of recipes. > > Barbara > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080104/0115ee75/attachment-0002.html From arf at mc.net Fri Jan 4 08:51:48 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 05:51:48 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] Testing 1 2 3 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477E39F4.5060007@mc.net> As far as I know, there are no restrictions on attaching photos to messages other than the max allowable total message length which is 40k. The attached photo is only 7k so there is lots of latitude for photos. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: ccheese.jpg Type: image/jpeg Size: 7102 bytes Desc: not available Url : http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080104/5b845e73/ccheese-0002.jpg From hombrewdude at yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 09:12:58 2008 From: hombrewdude at yahoo.com (hombrewdude) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 08:12:58 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] Testing 1 2 3 In-Reply-To: <477E39F4.5060007@mc.net> References: <477E39F4.5060007@mc.net> Message-ID: <477E3EEA.7080106@yahoo.com> Ok on my end.... Jack Schmidling wrote: > As far as I know, there are no restrictions on attaching photos to > messages other than the max allowable total message length which is 40k. > > The attached photo is only 7k so there is lots of latitude for photos. > > js > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ > Cheese mailing list > Cheese at hbd.org > http://hbd.org/mailman/listinfo/cheese > -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080104/f5d8598a/attachment-0002.html From chapka at yahoo.com Fri Jan 4 09:14:12 2008 From: chapka at yahoo.com (Christopher Hapka) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 06:14:12 -0800 (PST) Subject: [Cheese] Forum Message-ID: <66129.39048.qm@web55207.mail.re4.yahoo.com> In general, I prefer forums to mailing lists, although I read both. Forums tend to allow a broader and somewhat more focused discussion. One suggestion: instead of limiting this to cheese, why not put up a more general fermented foods forum? The nice thing about a forum is that people who are only interested in cheesemaking could limit their reading to that, but people also interested in home pickling, sausage making, saurkrauting, vinegarmaking, and so on (and I assume there's a fair amount of crossover) could also participate in those topics. ____________________________________________________________________________________ Looking for last minute shopping deals? Find them fast with Yahoo! Search. http://tools.search.yahoo.com/newsearch/category.php?category=shopping From arf at mc.net Fri Jan 4 09:16:52 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 06:16:52 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <477E3FD4.1070503@mc.net> jabbott at abbotts.org wrote: > I run a forum for people who heat their houses with corn. You can > take a look at it at http://forum.iburncorn.com if you want to see > what a forum could be like. At least it would kind of give you an > idea of what this guy is proposing. Now take a look at http://www.talkcheese.com/ and see what he is proposing. It's wall to wall advertising. >The nice thing about it is it is > easy to go into it and search for past messages. How is it easier than searching the archives of this list? > We > have a guy right now talking to the list about the dryness and > quantity of mold on his cheese. Wouldn't it be nice to see a > picture? All he has to do is post it as along as he obeys the max message restriction which can be changed but I see no need. > As far as following the money trail, well, that would be a pretty > short trail. Pay per click advertising is a great way to make coffee > money, but not much more. I am sure he could cover his $30/year but > I wouldn't bet on much more. People just don't click on the ads the > way the did years ago. In a few years, if it really takes off, he > might get some sponsership money. ...not exactly something you > retire on either... Then why do it? What is the point in annoying readers if there is no payback? If he is so interested in cheesemaking, where are all his postings to this list? Sorry but I read his posting as trolling for subscribers to his platform for advertising. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From bbowler at bigelow.org Fri Jan 4 09:50:45 2008 From: bbowler at bigelow.org (Bruce Bowler) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:50:45 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] Forum In-Reply-To: <66129.39048.qm@web55207.mail.re4.yahoo.com> References: <66129.39048.qm@web55207.mail.re4.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20080104095045.e7c0b8f1.bbowler@bigelow.org> On Fri, 4 Jan 2008 06:14:12 -0800 (PST) Christopher Hapka put fingers to keyboard and said: > In general, I prefer forums to mailing lists, although I read both. In general, I prefer mailing lists to fora. One reason I prefer mailing lists is I can keep (and search) a local copy of the traffic on the list and, since it's my copy of the messages, I can delete all of the extra drek that inevitably occurs. If it's a forum-only interface, all that garbage is ALSO kept, or we all rely on one individuals opinion of what's worth keeping. > Forums tend to allow a broader and somewhat more focused discussion. How? "broader" and "focused" tend to be at alternate ends of a spectrum. Bruce -- +-------------------+---------------------------------------------------+ Bruce Bowler | Our days are not problems to be solved, but reality 1.207.633.9600 | to be lived. - Anonymous bbowler at bigelow.org | +-------------------+---------------------------------------------------+ From arf at mc.net Fri Jan 4 10:13:06 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 07:13:06 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? In-Reply-To: References: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> <477D75AA.4030304@mc.net> <20080103183627.10mw5ahoasg480oc@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> <477D879C.4070304@mc.net> <20080103211748.9raa48viss88cs00@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> Message-ID: <477E4D02.7040808@mc.net> mila bulic wrote: > I read that you need to use calcium chloride in goat's milk in order to make > a proper cheese... According to Kosikowski, any milk that is not still warm from the animal needs calcium chloride. This is no doubt true in a theoretical sense but seems a bit of a reach in the real world. I never used it with fresh milk but it does seem to help firm up the curd when using homo milk. This would indicate that the same could be true for goat milk. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com From derekbradford at gmail.com Fri Jan 4 10:22:19 2008 From: derekbradford at gmail.com (Derek Bradford) Date: Sat, 5 Jan 2008 00:22:19 +0900 Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: <477E3FD4.1070503@mc.net> References: <477E3FD4.1070503@mc.net> Message-ID: <799e8cd60801040722w36af4847p4d1db9ce25bce41f@mail.gmail.com> On Jan 4, 2008 11:16 PM, Jack Schmidling wrote: > jabbott at abbotts.org wrote: > > I run a forum for people who heat their houses with corn. You can > > take a look at it at http://forum.iburncorn.com if you want to see > > what a forum could be like. At least it would kind of give you an > > idea of what this guy is proposing. > > Now take a look at http://www.talkcheese.com/ and see what he is > proposing. It's wall to wall advertising. I have to correct you here, Jack. That page you see is actually controlled by his hosting company, GoDaddy.com. He has simply bought the domain, but he hasn't done anything with it yet. Until a person does something with a domain (in this case, probably paying for another year or so of hosting or registration), the hosting company keeps them active as springboards for ads. In other words, the ads you see aren't his responsibility, and may not be anything like what he has in mind. Most forums don't look that way from my experience. --Derek -- Every path but your own is the path of fate. --Thoreau -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080105/fee1de66/attachment-0002.html From nate at allee.us Fri Jan 4 10:43:23 2008 From: nate at allee.us (Nathan Allee) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:43:23 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] Cheesemaking BBS Message-ID: <44b5f4210801040743v6c66987l8655928c8c2f83c6@mail.gmail.com> >take a look at http://www.talkcheese.com/ and see what he is proposing. It's wall >to wall advertising. Jack, that's called a parking page. It's the default page put up by the registrar (in this case GoDaddy) until the owner of that particular domain name decides to put up something of his own. >Then why do it? What is the point in annoying readers if there is no payback? It's no more annoying than personal ads in an email signature line. >If he is so interested in cheesemaking, where are all his postings to this list? >Sorry but I read his posting as trolling for subscribers to his platform for >advertising. I agree that it could possibly be trolling, this is the internet after all. Or he could be a lurker, like I usually am, who prefers forums to mailing lists. If he is trolling then he's a rank amateur. A troller who knows what he's doing would have already had the forum up and running and populated with a bunch of fake users etc. All IMHO. +Nate ---------- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com _______________________________________________ -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080104/19f4af8c/attachment-0002.html From bac at NebrWesleyan.edu Fri Jan 4 10:50:20 2008 From: bac at NebrWesleyan.edu (Barbara Cornelius) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:50:20 -0600 Subject: [Cheese] making goat milk cheese? In-Reply-To: References: <001401c84e2f$e25db2c0$6401a8c0@conrad3igswqs1> <477D75AA.4030304@mc.net> <20080103183627.10mw5ahoasg480oc@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> <477D879C.4070304@mc.net> <20080103211748.9raa48viss88cs00@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> Message-ID: <20080104095020.oclkobpu880gw8cc@webmail.nebrwesleyan.edu> You *could* use it, to make a firmer curd. It's used in cow milk cheeses if the milk has been homogenized and/or pasteurized. But I don't think it's absolutely necessary. Quoting mila bulic : > I read that you need to use calcium chloride in goat's milk in order to make > a proper cheese... > > On Jan 4, 2008 12:17 AM, Barbara Cornelius wrote: -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080104/5b18f0d4/attachment-0002.html From nate at allee.us Fri Jan 4 09:52:01 2008 From: nate at allee.us (Nathan Allee) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 09:52:01 -0500 Subject: [Cheese] Cheesemaking BBS Message-ID: <44b5f4210801040652l3d3d3c29y93fb30dec35135f4@mail.gmail.com> I would love to have a dedicated cheese makers forum. I have been struggling thru mailing lists on several subjects for years and have never been satisfied with it. Maybe it's just me being too dumb or impatient to really learn how to make a mailing list work for me. On the other hand, the forum is a highly efficient way to organize a discussion on any subject and has a very low learning curve. All of the forums I belong to also incorporate the best features of a mailing list. I'll "make do" with a mailing list but I'd take a forum over a mailing list any day. The suspicion that Landon is just out to make some $ isn't really very logical. Even a cursory investigation would show that forums with lot's of advertising are also WILDLY popular (as in tens of thousands of members.) But wildly popular forums do not necessarily always have lots of ads. Landon, make the forum and I'll be the first to sign up (that is, as long as you don't load it down with tons of ads.) *grin* +Nate -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://hbd.org/pipermail/cheese/attachments/20080104/e1fcc111/attachment-0002.html From jabbott at abbotts.org Fri Jan 4 11:02:55 2008 From: jabbott at abbotts.org (jabbott@abbotts.org) Date: Fri, 4 Jan 2008 10:02:55 -0600 (CST) Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: <477E3FD4.1070503@mc.net> Message-ID: That is the parked page. Not the same thing at all as what a web site or web forum would be. --ja On Fri, 4 Jan 2008, Jack Schmidling wrote: > jabbott at abbotts.org wrote: > > I run a forum for people who heat their houses with corn. You can > > take a look at it at http://forum.iburncorn.com if you want to see > > what a forum could be like. At least it would kind of give you an > > idea of what this guy is proposing. > > Now take a look at http://www.talkcheese.com/ and see what he is > proposing. It's wall to wall advertising. > > > >The nice thing about it is it is > > easy to go into it and search for past messages. > > How is it easier than searching the archives of this list? > > > We > > have a guy right now talking to the list about the dryness and > > quantity of mold on his cheese. Wouldn't it be nice to see a > > picture? > > > All he has to do is post it as along as he obeys the max message > restriction which can be changed but I see no need. > > > As far as following the money trail, well, that would be a pretty > > short trail. Pay per click advertising is a great way to make coffee > > money, but not much more. I am sure he could cover his $30/year but > > I wouldn't bet on much more. People just don't click on the ads the > > way the did years ago. In a few years, if it really takes off, he > > might get some sponsership money. ...not exactly something you > > retire on either... > > Then why do it? What is the point in annoying readers if there is no > payback? > > If he is so interested in cheesemaking, where are all his postings to > this list? Sorry but I read his posting as trolling for subscribers to > his platform for advertising. > > js > > -- From arf at mc.net Fri Jan 4 12:32:34 2008 From: arf at mc.net (Jack Schmidling) Date: Fri, 04 Jan 2008 09:32:34 -0800 Subject: [Cheese] Any interest in a Cheesemaking BBS? In-Reply-To: <799e8cd60801040722w36af4847p4d1db9ce25bce41f@mail.gmail.com> References: <477E3FD4.1070503@mc.net> <799e8cd60801040722w36af4847p4d1db9ce25bce41f@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <477E6DB2.4050908@mc.net> Derek Bradford wrote: > I have to correct you here, Jack. In other words, the ads you see aren't his responsibility, and may not > be anything like what he has in mind. I understand but it makes the point of what the possibilities are and what so many of them really do look like. The fact that he already said it would include advertising is enough to keep me away. I do not like ads. My not so humble opinion. Personally, I prefer usenet to most web based fora but one only needs to read alt.cheese to realize that something is fundamentally wrong there and I am not quite sure what. The only thing that comes to mind is that there are already too many cheese groups and we need to consolidate and not expand. js -- PHOTO OF THE WEEK: http://schmidling.com/pow.htm Astronomy, Beer, Cheese, Fiber,Gems, Sausage,Silver http://schmidling.com