HOMEBREW Digest #1010 Wed 11 November 1992

Digest #1009 Digest #1011

		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

  Yeast Culturing and Storage Question. (Greg_Habel)
  racking after respiration (Rob Bradley)
  Candi sugar experiment (Phillip Seitz)
  re:celis wit (jim busch)
  Re: efficiency (Victor Reijs)
  Pumps for boiling wort (Alexander R Mitchell)
  St. Louis Beer (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  Swedish Nightmares!!!! (rizy)
  Wyeast Bavarian Lager fermentation temp (CW06GST)
  Colorado Blue Laws (Jon Binkley)
  Zima ?? (Jimmy Patrick)
  Texas-style wheat beer?!?! (korz)
  gravity/trub ("Knight,Jonathan G")
  Re: BRF (Robert Schultz)
  Another Dry Malt Extract source is.... (BRANDO QUARLES 264-3827  10-Nov-1992 1326)
  NA, Titans (Jack Schmidling)
  First Time Brewing Jitters (Gerald_Wirtz)
  NJ Brewpub News (gcw)
  Brettanomyces in Porter (Mark Gryska)

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---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 08:28:50 est From: Greg_Habel at DGC.ceo.dg.com Subject: Yeast Culturing and Storage Question. I recently received an Advanced Yeast Culturing kit for my birthday. I am concerned about running out of the pre-poured wort agar plates. The plates are used for propogating and purifying yeast cultures. The plates are made out of plastic and are not reusable. In the future I would like to continue using plates. I have contacted a medical supply company for a catalog listing glass plates and culture tubes. Now the big question: How does one make the sterile brewers wort agar? As you can see, I am trying to avoid purchasing the pre-poured slants and plates. I would rather save the money for other brew-related purposes (all grain goodies). Greg. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 08:58:50 -0500 From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley) Subject: racking after respiration I posted the following on Monday morning; it seems to have ended up in Tumbolia: "B followed A, therefore A caused B." This fallacious form of reasoning is very common, and I plead guilty your honor, with an explanation. Peter Maxwell and I have had the following back-and-forth in #1007 & #1008: >> ....then I got a >> batch with an INCREDIBLE, UNDRINKABLE amount of diacetyl. End of >> experiment. Back to racking on day 4. > >Was this diacetyl produced BECAUSE you racked off earlier? What happened? >How could racking earlier than day 4 result in this? I never claimed a causal connection, although I had hoped to get some evidence one way or another from other HBDers. I'd love to find the time and patience to test scientifically the effect of racking at 24 hours on diacetyl production. My 1990 experiment came to an end based on laziness, not scientific method. Brewing a batch of beer requires so much work that I hesitate to take a _chance_ on an experimental method that ended in failure -- even once -- when I've successfully brewed scores of batches another way. Unscientific, but in keeping with a hobby I view as being 45% art, 45% science and 10% magic. Here's my experience racking within 12-24 hours of pitching. All batches are full-mash, using only malt and specialty malts. Batch Style When racked Comments - ----- ----- ----------- -------- 187 Pale Ale Morning after (12-16 hrs.) Up to my usual standards. 188 Mild Ale " " " " " " " " 189 Pale Ale 24 hours after pitching Overpowering diacetyl. 190 Stout planned at 16 hours Was fermenting too actively to siphon. After being unable to rack #190, I bottled #189 and discovered the diacetyl. I have never since attempted racking after respiration. >When the weather gets colder here I intend to try a >lager and would like to know if there are any other gotchas regarding >racking off trub. Me too, except that mine will be a steam beer. Advice, fellow HBDers? ++++ In HBD1009, Peter told us how a batch that was racked 9 1/2 hours after pitching apparently died. +++++++ When I racked off the trub in batches 187-189, I seem to recall that it also had the apparent effect of halting the fermentation. Temporarily, in my case, as it always re-started itself. I think it may be something like this: until high krausen, even our top-fermenting friends tend to sit on the bottom, along with the trub. If you rack too early (9 1/2 hours, in your case), there's not enough yeast in suspension. If you wait until high krausen, it's too late, because the furious bubbling makes siphoning impossible. Someone like George Fix can probably tell us if this is accurate. If so, then the whole procedure is like toast: "...just cook it 'til it burns, and 20 seconds less." >In future I'm leaving it alone. A good piece of advice I read in _Northern_Brewer_ (the CABA quarterly) about six years ago: "don't bugger with the beer". Once the yeast has been pitched, leave it be until you're ready to bottle/keg/rack to secondary. As a lapsed Catholic, I have a residual belief in the efficacy of ritual, and always say a "domine" when I pitch my yeast. Then it's out of my hands, at least until the krausen falls. I wonder if there's a suitable pagan deity whom I can invoke instead? Perhaps this Sumerian beer goddess mentioned in #1008-9, or some ancient Celtic fermentation "spirit" :-) Cheers, Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu) Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 14:37 GMT From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com> Subject: Candi sugar experiment I'm planning to conduct a kitchen experiment to determine just what it is that candi sugar contributes to beer. However, I'm no scientist and my supplies of candi sugar are limited, so I'd welcome any comments on the following "experimental design": 3 test batches of 1 quart each Each batch will have 1/4 lb DME (+/- 1.040), plus 100 grams of sugar Batch 1: Corn sugar (the "control") Batch 2: White sucre candi Batch 3: Brown sucre candi Ferment each batch with 50 ml starter from plated Sierra Nevada/Narragansett yeast (the idea being to use something healthy but neutral in flavor) Ferment to terminal gravity and bottle with 1/2 tsp corn sugar per bottle (hard to rack and bulk prime with such small quantities) Does this sound like the right way to go about it? Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:15:20 EST From: jim busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com> Subject: re:celis wit According to recent information from Hoegaarden Wit brewers, they do not gelantize the raw wheat prior to mashing. What I was told is that they imploy very long rests (45 min each) at protein stage (123-ish F), beta rest (144F-ish) followed by saccharification rest (60 min? 152?) and a mash off. Normal lautering follows, without a special lauter tun. I realize this differs with the information from the Celis post. One would assume similar techniques in each brewery, but since they are owned by different interests, anything is possible. I did find it quite interesting that the Celis information claimed a simple one step infusion. Note that the Celis post claimed using 6 row malt, not two row. As someone who has brewed a Wit using 45% raw spring soft wheat and 5% raw steel cut oats, I can attest to the difficulty of working with the grains. Now maybe my mistake was using soft wheat, since the Celis post indicated hard wheat. I also gelatinized the grains, but I believe the temp got too low, resulting in a hardened mass. My next go at this style will follow the multi-step mash bill, keeping the consistency loose and skipping the grain boiling step. Since this is a very low gravity beer, it may not be necessary. Any comments/experiances with the pros & cons of hard versus soft wheat???? Jim Busch Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 16:29:23 +0100 From: Victor Reijs <Victor.Reijs at SURFnet.nl> Subject: Re: efficiency >At the risk of beating this to death, let me try again. We must first >agree that different types of malt have different "theoretical maximums" >of extraction. For instance, 2-row pale malt may be 36pts/lb/gallon, >whereas 6-row lager may be 31pts/lb/gallon, and wheat may be 39ppg. Oke, there is a theoretical maximum of extraction. We define extraction as being the amount of stuff which can be extrated out of the grains. So this includes (un)fermentable sugars and of course all other kind of stuff. Is this interpretation of extraction oke??? If yes, then ... >So if someone makes a batch with all 2-row, and gets 30ppg, he has a >percent efficiency of 83% (30/36). Oke, this figure (Eff) will presumable be the same for that method of brewing a single brewer is using. This figure will be quiet constant to the brewer and type of malt, in my opinion. (real breweries will have high efficiency, perhaps 100% and beginners lower). This TM*Eff gives a figure for the OG, correct??? (be aware I do not have the custom of using pts/lb/gallon, but I am trying to get the Papazian book [what is the ISBN-number?]). To get an idea about the FG one needs to know how much of the extract is fermentable. This figure (Fer) is also different percentage for every malt. E.g. lager malt 65% of the extract is fermentable, for white sugar this is of course 100%, for crystal (the European term!) it is 60%, brown sugar it is 95% and dark malt it is 60% (I have more info, but just as example;-) . Using thus TM*Eff*Fer for every ingredient in the recipe, it is possible to get a figure for the amount of fermentable sugar and thus a figure of the amount of Alcohol. Furthermore having the a figure of UNfermentable stuff and the amount of alcohol, one can calculate the FG. All the best, Victor Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:58:21 EST From: Alexander R Mitchell <ARMITC01 at ULKYVM.LOUISVILLE.EDU> Subject: Pumps for boiling wort *** Resending note of 11/10/92 09:05 To: HOMEBREW--CMS From: Alexander R Mitchell Prog/Analyst II C & T Phone: (502)588-5626 A while back some one mentioned that they used an electric pump to recirculate mash liquid and for transfering hot (boiling) wort. I would like information/advice on using a pump for brewing. Please E-mail me directly, and I'll post compiled info if people are interested. Thanks in advance. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 10:47:09 -0600 From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965) Subject: St. Louis Beer Hi Estes -- Unfortunately, there is only *one* brew-pub in St. Louis. Fortunately, they make good beer. The brewmaster is none other than Dave Miller, author of two books on homebrewing, and all-around nice guy. Anyway, the pub is called "The Tap Room" and it is two blocks south of Washington Avenue on 21st Street. As for landmarks, there really aren't any. This is not particularly close to the hotel -- maybe 16 blocks. Any cab driver should be able to get you there from the Adams Mark. It helps to approach the pub from the north, because 21st Street is one-way south. Expect to spend $10 on a big hamburger, plate of spicy fries and a pint of brew. Just north of the hotel is an area called "Laclede's Landing". There are bars, dance clubs, restaurants, etc (but no brew pubs) up there. The Hotel desk should be able to direct you. I'm not much of a "night life" person, so I really can't make any specific recommendations. If you like jazz music, one of the lounges in the Adams Mark itself has a reputation for bringing in good players. If you like live Rock & Roll, check out Mississippi Nights. The Riverfront Times newspaper is the best place to look for information about Laclede's Landing entertainment. It'll probably be available (free) in the hotel lobby. Hope this helps. ============================================================================= Tom Leith InterNet: trl at wuerl.WUstl.EDU 4434 Dewey Ave. CompuServe: 70441,3536 St. Louis, Missouri 63116 "Tho' I could not caution all 314/362-6965 - Office I still might warn a few: 314/362-6971 - Office Fax Don't lend your hand 314/481-2512 - Home + Infernal Machine to raise no flag atop no Ship of Fools" ============================================================================= Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 17:51:19 +0100 From: rizy at eel.sunet.se Subject: Swedish Nightmares!!!! HELP!!! I'm stuck in a non-brewers land full of watery lager and can't find the ingredients for a good Stout!!! Chocolate malt has now become (temporarily?) impossible to get in Sweden and I'm dying to brew a good Stout for some friends. Does anyone out there have any ideas for suitable alternatives?? Anyone tried Cocoa or real chocolate?? I've got 10 kilos (20 lb) of crystal malt if anyone has any ideas on a conversion process (have plenty of pilsener / normal malt as well) I hope someone out there can help me out ! P.S. Is there many other folks out there in Sweden with the same problem? So far I've tried ringing around both here in Stockholm and in Goteborg. Thanks in advance for any suggestions Rick Zydenbos. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 12:28:04 EST From: CW06GST <CW06GST%SJUMUSIC.bitnet at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU> Subject: Wyeast Bavarian Lager fermentation temp Last Wednesday I tried to brew an extract/specialty grain marzen loosley based on Papazian's Winky Dink Marzen. OG was around 1.050. I cooled to around 70 degrees F and pitched Wyeast Bavarian Lager yeast. I then placed the fermenterin a refridgerator at 45 degrees F. No action for the first 12 hours. I then raised the temperature to around 50 deg. Still no action. Then I turned of the fridge which is outside and the temperature stablized at around 55 deg. After 72 hours there were no signs of fermentation. At this point I brought the fermenter inside in hopes that warmer temperatures would activate the yeast (73 deg.) Still no action :( It is now going on the 6th day and my concern is growing with each passing minute. Is the yeast dead or is it dormant? As far as I can see I have 4 choices: 1) Keep waiting in hopes that fermentation starts. 2) Pitch more yeast. 3) Add some kind of yeast nutrient. 4) Give up. I would rather not choose option 4 as I was looking forward to drinking some good beer. Has anyone experienced this problem with this yeast (or any other lager yeast)? Should I have waited for active fermentation to start before chilling? or should I have just left it alone in the fridge? I know that some lagers are brewed over the course of many months, but how long does it take for the primary fermentation to take place? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Erik Zenhausern Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:31:36 -0700 From: Jon Binkley <binkley at beagle.Colorado.EDU> Subject: Colorado Blue Laws Brian Walter writes: > The mention of CO brews being weaker is left over from >an old law, to best of my knowledge. I know CO at one time >sold 3.2 beer, but do not know if this was a ruling for all beer, >or just for 18 - 21 year olds, or ... Before the drinking age became 21 for everything a few years ago, 3.2% alcohol by weight (about 4% by volume) beer was the only alcohol 18-20 year-olds could buy. There were no other restrictions on alcohol strength. 21 and older could then and still can buy any kind of beer, from Miller Lite to Samichlaus. We don't even have to call the stronger stuff "Malt Liquor," as many (most?) other states do. 3.2 beer is still around, though, because it's the only kind of alcohol grocery stores and convenience stores are allowed to sell in Colorado. This is a bit annoying. Since 21 is now the age for everything, I would like to be able to buy all types of beer and wine in grocery stores. Two factors prevent this from happening. First, the political climate is such that no law making drinking more convenient is going to get passed, no matter how much sense it makes. Second, the liquor stores will lobby hard against such a change, as they are now the only source of wine and good beer. Other blue laws in Colorado are nothing stronger than 3.2% beer can be sold to anyone on Sunday (except in bars), and nothing at all can be sold between midnight and 6 am (bars can sell 'til 2 am) every day. Jon Binkley Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 1992 09:43:40 -0800 From: Jimmy Patrick <jimmyp at well.sf.ca.us> Subject: Zima ?? Hey, Check out the Wall Street Journal from tuesday, there is an article talking about the advertising for Zima malt-beverage from COORS. No Suds. Light Clear Taste. Is Coors going against the trend that we are a prime example of, (people moving towards better beer?) Anyway some feel that Coors may be making a beverage to sell to younger people who might not like *real beer* (is coors real beer?) Jimmyp well.sf.ca.us Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:14 CST From: korz at iepubj.att.com Subject: Texas-style wheat beer?!?! Just because the world's formost authority on Belgian Wit beer has taken up residence in Texas doesn't suddenly change the name of the style does it? Just kidding. No, really -- Wit beer is a recently -revived style (by Pierre Celis at the DeKluis Brewery in Belgium before the Belgian industrial-brew giant Interbrew bought him out) that has been around probably longer than Texas has. I don't know about the cooking of the wheat in Witbier, perhaps Steve could follow-up, but the wheat in traditional Lambiks (another very old Belgian style of beer) is not pre-cooked... the only "cooking" of the *unmalted* wheat that appears to occur is during the decoctions (this is from memory -- I believe that Martin Lodahl first noted this -- Martin?) so the extraction is quite low from the wheat. Al. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 11:57:47 cdt From: "Knight,Jonathan G" <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU> Subject: gravity/trub I recently brewed an extract-based Bass-Ale clone (supposedly) recipe that was posted here a couple hundred issues ago. It went like this: 6 lbs. English Light Xtract (William's) 1.1 lbs Demarara sugar 1 lb crystal Northern Brewer & Fuggles (I forget how much offhand) 3 tsp gypsum, 1/2 tsp irish moss Wyeast British I got an O.G. reading of 48. After about a week in the primary I racked to a secondary last night and got a reading of about 18. So here's the question: in the past I've used Wyeast California and American. In both cases after a week or so in the primary I got gravity readings much closer to the eventual finishing gravity of around 12, even with a heavy Christmas ale I brewed which had an OG of 60 or so (American used with that). Does the British work more slowly? Does it generally result in a higher FG? Is there anything about the recipe design that would suggest a finishing gravity in the neighborhood of 18? Not "worrying," just curious. Also, I've been interested in th thread on yeast nutrients in trub. I generally rack off the trub into my bucket primary as soon as the wort is cool (about 30 minutes for me) and then stir in the yeast. I've been using Wyeast in standard wort starter solutions and I get excellent starts (usually within 6 hours) and, to my relatively untrained palate, pretty good beer. If I were to pitch into the cooled wort in the brewpot, wait 30 minutes and THEN rack into the primary, as I think has been suggested, what specific improvements could I really expect in my finished product, and would those improvements be worth the additional risk of infection from waiting the extra time before sealing up the beer under the airlock? Wizards of Wort, please advise! Return to table of contents
Date: 10 Nov 1992 09:04 -0600 (CST) From: Robert Schultz <SCHULTZ at admin1.usask.ca> Subject: Re: BRF I agree with Philip, but would like to see a Mac version -- is there a MAC BRF available out there? Robert Schultz Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:28:58 PST From: BRANDO QUARLES 264-3827 10-Nov-1992 1326 <quarles at mvds02.enet.dec.com> Subject: Another Dry Malt Extract source is.... Regarding "C. Lyons" entry in HBD # 1008... "Bulk Prices on Dry Malt Extract".... I offer the following; I've also found a reasonable source for Bulk Dry Malt Extract. Mitch's Brew (603-889-6406) in Nashua, N.H., (a Mom and Pop shop) offers Munton and Fison 55 lb. boxes of Dried Malt Extract for $129.95. I've been very pleased with Mitch's Brew as they are almost always open (home operated) and have very competitive prices. Mitch's Brew's hours are M-F 9:00 am to 5:00 pm, Saturday 9:00 to 2:00 pm, and Sunday by appointment. Since this is home operated they will also open up their store to you during their "off" hours should you need something. standard disclaimer - I have no association with this store and am merely posting this for your information. Regards, Brando. Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 10:20 CST From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) Subject: NA, Titans To: Homebrew Digest Fm: Jack Schmidling >From: ryan%phmms0.mms.smithkline.com at smithkline.com (Dominic Ryan) >Dialysis it hardly an obscure process, woudn't it be sufficient to allow that you are unfamiliar with it? No. > I personally have no knowledge of what A-B uses to produce their non-alcoholic beer, but dialysing out the alcohol makes perfect sense. It only makes sense if A-B had a tradition of using the best technology to produce the finest tasting product. In light of the fact they seem to use what ever technology it takes to produce the cheapest beer no matter how insipid it tastes, I humbly stick to my accusation that they dilute it as major part of the alcohol reduction process. Osmotic process such as you describe are notoriously expensive and I know of no commercial use on the scale of a major brewer. >I tend to doubt that A-B dilutes their regular beer by about seven-fold in order to reduce alcohol from 3.5% to 0.5%. I did not mean to imply that dilution was the only measure taken to get there, just that it was the most easily overlooked. My experiments with NA make it abundantly clear that dilution is one of their secret weapons. The NA I made simply by heating to 170F and letting cool to 150F reduced the alcohol in my beer to 1.3% according to mass spec measurements made by Jean Hunter at Cornell. By diluting this with equal parts water we end up with .65% and a perfectly drinkable beer. It is not hard to imagine how they get it down to .5% with a little more water. Nor is is hard to believe this is their "secret process" when one considers the insipid taste of their NA beer. On the other hand, if we start out with a malty, hoppy homebrew and process it as I have described, we end up with an NA that has far more flavor and character than even their premium stuff. >From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli) >Subject: Godzilla vs Mothra >A funny thing happened the other night. I went to a fight and a hockey game broke out..... Who would have believed that a calm, orderly exchange of ideas and opinions could occur without any trouble whatsoever... Just a good example of one of the evils of the "electronic revolution". It's a lot harder to be unfriendly when you're eyeball to eyeball. And it's a lot easier to be objective about beer when you have a glass of it in your hand than trying to reconstruct what it probably tastes like based on keyboard entries. Nice thoughts, Chris... js Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 15:27 EST From: Gerald_Wirtz at vos.stratus.com Subject: First Time Brewing Jitters Thanks to all of those who answered my mail on first time brewing jitters. I drank one at five days, one at seven, and a few at twelve - WOW what a difference a few days make. The first was flat and kinda bitter. The second had more corbonation but still a little bitter. But the ones at twelve days were well on there way to full carbonation and surprisingly very smooth. The difference in just a few days was dramatic. I will slowly drink these as time goes on as I begin the wait for another batch, now in the secondary, to age. Once again thanks - Gerald Wirtz - Stratus Computer Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 17:02 EST From: gcw at granjon.att.com Subject: NJ Brewpub News New Jersey brewpub news - the "issue" has been introduced to the state senate and the bill number is S-614. The bill is now in the Law and Public Safty Committee and in the People's Republic of NJ, only a select few bills get out of this committee. Once this is accomplished the bill must passed by the Senate and then the Assembly and if the Assembly adds amendments, then it goes back to the Senate - isn't politics fun! To top this fun off, every time the political process adjourns (I think every 2 years) the bill must be reintroduces again. I believe the homebrew bill had to be reintroduced 2 times for example. If anyone knows who we can abuse --- I mean encourage to help this bill along and if anyone knows what the bill actually says (any political science majors at Trenton State listening) that would be most helpful. In other news a brewpub has just opened in the area: Mountain Valley Brewery Route 202 (ie Orange Ave/Franklin Turnpike) Suffern, NY. 914-357-0101 Hours: 11:30 - 2 M - Th 11:30 - 4 F & Sat 12 - 12 Sun Suffern is located just across the broder from Mahwah, NJ near route 87 and 17. They just opened 2 weeks ago and have a porter, pale ale, copper, copper light (less malt) and an octoberfest will be up by the end of the week. Have not made it there yet, but will ASAP. Geoff Return to table of contents
Date: Tue, 10 Nov 92 21:12:25 EST From: Mark Gryska <mark at vicorp.com> Subject: Brettanomyces in Porter Hi Gang, I have come across numerous references to Brettanomyces being one of the yeasts present in the beers of Old England, notably Porters and Old Ales. I assume that they are still used in beer such as Thomas Hardys. If one wanted to make an 'authentic' porter then I imagine that the process would be similar to making a p-lambic. The question is ... does anyone have any idea which strain of Brettanomyces to use? - mg Mark Gryska mark at vicorp.com Return to table of contents
End of HOMEBREW Digest #1010, 11/11/92