FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Light Ale - Canned Wort (Patrick Walters)
  ? Fischer d'Alsace ? (Ron Rushing)
  lagers without lagering? (cush)
  Other brewing info sources (Carlo Fusco)
  SN= Narragansett?; Whitbread (George J Fix)
  Boston Brewing Ripoff (7226 Lacroix)
  Re : real ale from a carboy (Conn Copas)
  Refractometer Conversions ("John Cotterill")
  Whitbread Yeast Availability (fjdobner)
  Watered Beers ("Rad Equipment")
  Yeast for Weizenbock? (Sandy Cockerham)
  "Cidre Bouche'" (Joel Pointon at staff)
  info on beer in the news ("J Cusick"                                 )
  re: Demise of Whitbred? (James P. Buchman)
  Harringtons or Klages? (SynCAccT)
  Aging Beer (Jack Schmidling)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date:         Mon, 16 Nov 92 01:42:29 PST
From: Patrick Walters <97994779 at WSUVM1.CSC.WSU.EDU>
Subject:      Light Ale - Canned Wort

Due to my limited facilities, I am unable to brew entirely from scratch. I am
in a semi contest with 2 other friends, and I would like to make a light ale,
preferably with a golden color. Or, a light draft. I will be using a canned
wort and I would appreciate reccomendations on brands, and possible locations
in Seattle, WA.

Merci en avance
Patrick at Washington State University
Go Cougs!!

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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 07:30:13 -0700
From: f_rushingrg at ccvax.sfasu.edu (Ron Rushing)
Subject: ? Fischer d'Alsace ?

Greetings From Nacogdohces--

I recently had a brew that I really enjoied, and thought I'd ask you folks
about it.  There are several of us here that have taken up the brewng hobby
and we'd like to know more about how to brew a similar beverage--

The beverage is a Fischer d'Alsace.  It is a light brew, with a slightly
sweet malt? flavor.

Any info, comments, or recpies would be appreciated--

                                        ---  Ron Rushing- Supervisor   ---
                Education Media Center                              Stephen
F. Austin State University
                        PO Box 6172                                        
       Nacogdoches, TX  75962
                      409) 568-1424                                        
            FAX 409) 568-1475
                                              f_rushingrg at ccsvax.sfasu.edu


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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 9:10:12 CST
From: cush at msc.edu
Subject: lagers without lagering?

With cooler weather here, I would like to open a thread about producing 
lagers.

You see, I have a cold-cellar, but not a refridgerator dedicated for lagering.

Originally, I thought I could use the cold-cellar for lagering, but it only
gets down to 40-50 (cannot controll the temp!).  I can therefore do a
cold ferment, but am not really able to do a *real* lager step at 33-35F.

The question is this: I want to produce a bock.  Can I use, for example,
Wyeast Chico ale yeast, fermented at 55F or so, then age at 45-50F in the cold
cellar?  Chico ale supposedly ferments *clean*, and will work down to about
50F.  Alternatively, could I use a true lager stain, and just do a cold
ferment at about 50F, and age (sort of 'lager') at 40-45F?  I know this is
not low enough for a true lagering step, but would time at that temperature
still produce some significant reduction of diacityle (sp?) ??

What methods have people used to approximate a lager withought being able
to do a true lager step?

On another vein, Miller notes that most commercial breweries lager in the 
secondary, with the beer under pressure.  He questions the wisdom of
homebrewers lagering in a 'secondary' carbouy: the reasoning being that
bottle conditioning results in the yeast doing their thing, and producing
'unclean' flavors along the way.  He recommends doing a primary, a relatively
short secondary, then bottling, and doing the lagering in the bottle.  As
he says, the bottles become an approximation to the pressurized secondary
fermentors the big guys use.  The drawback to this approch is that perhaps
too much sediment accumulates in the bottles, perhaps leading to an
autolysis problem.  But he claims that he has had little trouble with this

Again, what are the options here.  (I also do not have a kegging system...)
- -- 
	> Cush Hamlen				|	cush at msc.edu
	> Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc.	|	612/626-0263
	> 1200 Washington Ave. So.		|	FAX:612/624-6550
	> Minneapolis, MN  55415		|

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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 1992 10:42 EST
From: Carlo Fusco <G1400023 at NICKEL.LAURENTIAN.CA>
Subject: Other brewing info sources

Hello,

I am interested in getting more information about brewing. Are there any 
other sources of electronic information besides the HBD? 

I am not just asking about beer, but every thing that can be brewed. [Beer, 
mead, cider, etc]

If the reply is good I will create a comprehensive list for distribution.

Thanks to all who reply.

Carlo Fusco  G1400023 at nickel.laurentian.ca

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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 11:07:14 CST
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: SN= Narragansett?; Whitbread

I believe the production yeast at SN is the same as the Siebel strain
BRY-96. This strain was brought into the US from the UK by the Ballantine
family, and was used to brew their XXX and IPA. In their primes these were
very much the real thing; e.g., the XXX had a SG around 1.053 (13P), a IBU
in the mid 30s, and was dry hopped to boot. I do not know what happened after
Falstaff obtained these brands. Both the IPA and XXX were brewed at Nargansett,
but whether this was with the original formulations or not is in question.
The current versions are bottom fermented, and pale in comparison with the
originals (at least on paper vis-a-vis SG, IBU, et al.)

The Biologist at Ballantine who was responsible for maintaining their ale
yeast was a person by the name of George Leaver. I meet him in the 1980s
when he was working at Pittsburgh Brewing. He retired and moved to 
Portland, and shortly after that I moved to Texas. I lost contact with
him after that. Jeff Frane and the AHA are trying to track him down, for
he would make an excellent conference speaker. The "Eastern ales", and
most notably the Ballantine ales, had a glorious history and it would be great
to have this documented by someone with firsthand experience. If anyone ever
runs into George Leaver tell him to contact me, Jeff, or the AHA.  

Until last Jan. the heat dried Whitbread yeast was distributed by Siebels. 
It was produced in a Canadian plant, and Siebels acted only as a distribtor.
Unfortunately, the Canadian firm developed a serious wild yeast infection,
and Siebels promply dropped the line. The producer is still having QC
problems, and this is resulting in highly erratic batch quality. I am
currently negotiating with Cosby and Baker to establish a testing program
whereby the heat dried Whitbread yeast would be accepted or rejected by
C+B based on microbiological analysis of statistically significant samples
from each batch sent to them. You should be hearing more about this in the near
future.

George Fix 


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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 10:43:05 MST
From: stevel at chs.com (7226 Lacroix)
Subject: Boston Brewing Ripoff

	So with all the conversation on the net a while back about the use
of Boston in naming beer and how BBC had decided to sue a few of the less
well heeled breweries in the area for DARING to try to trick the helpless
public....I decided I couldn't pass up this opportunity to take a swipe at
BBC....  Over the weekend I bought a bottle of "Cranberry Lambic" at my 
favorite beer store.  In very fine print on the label it stated that it was
"wheat beer flavored with cranberries".  Talking about tricking the helpless
public!  This beer was nothing like a lambic (lambik, lambique, lambeek..)!
And as for the cranberries...well they may have thrown a few into the 
primary but I'll bet it was as few as necessary to comply with FDA labeling


laws!  So the next time somebody sides with "poor little ol' BBC" Remember
this little note...and the bucks they're making selling "Cranberry Lambic"
Hell, this might put them in the same league with "pure Rocky Mtn. Spring
Water" and "King of Beers" and "It's the rice...it's the barley"!  And just
to keep the BBC lawyers off my door step....this opinion is my own, based on 
my experience and does not represent...blah...blah....blah!

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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 18:19:22 GMT
From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
Subject: Re : real ale from a carboy

Pat writes :
 
- --------------------------
 - -- If this is not an original idea, has anybody tried it? ...not tried it
for what reason?  ...tried it and had problems?



  /--------\
  |        | <-- Copper Tubing
| | |      |
| | |      |
| | |      |    -----
| | |      |   |  |  |
| | |      |   |  |  |
| | |      |   |  |  |
| | |      |   |  |  |
| | |      |   |  |  | <--- 5 Gallon Carboy
| | |      |    \ | /
| | |      |     \|/
| | |      |      B----\      B == BrewCap
| | |      |      |    |
| | |      \----- B    |  r
| | |            /"\   \--o  <-- Beer output
| | |           /   \     '
| | |          |     |
| | |          |     |
| | |          |     | <--- 5 Gallon Carboy
| | | <--\     |     |
|   |    |     |     |
 - -----    |      -----
         |
         \-- Water Column

- -------------------------
Well, I'm no physicist, but here goes. (Taking a breath). Your system doesn't
appear closed to me, and therefore won't pressurise. Ie, CO2 will dissolve in
the water column, and eventually will reach equilibrium with the atmosphere.

- -- 
Loughborough University of Technology          tel : +44 509 263171  ext 4164
Computer-Human Interaction Research Centre     fax : +44 509 610815      
Leicestershire  LE11 3TU              e-mail - (Janet):C.V.Copas at uk.ac.lut   
G Britain                                      (Internet):C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk


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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 10:45:45 PST
From: "John Cotterill" <johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp.com>
Subject: Refractometer Conversions
Full-Name: "John Cotterill"

I have a refractometer for measuring sugar concentration in my beers.  The unit
reads in % Brix.  Does anyone know where I can find a table that converts
% Brix to points of specific gravity??  Currently I use the table that is 
inside my hydrometer.  But that table is hard to read, and I would like a bit
more accuracy.

Thanks,
JC
johnc at hprpcd.rose.hp

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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 13:37 CST
From: fjdobner at ihlpb.att.com
Subject: Whitbread Yeast Availability


Walter asked yesterday:

>    Can someone comment on the alledged demise of Whitbred ale yeast? I
>continually here about how it is no longer available yet still buy it
>everytime I stop into Chicago Indoor Garden Supply.  When I ask the owner
>about it he looks at me like I've taken his advise to "brew your own and
>grow your own" a little too much to heart.  According to him Whitbred has
>changed form a 14g to a 12g package but is still producing away.  What's
>the story here?

>Walter


My understanding from Crosby & Baker is that Whitbread will be back with 
their dry ale yeast in wholesalers hands at the end of November. The lager
version should also be available by the end of this year. This should be
good news for those folks taken to brewing with dry lager yeast. Whitbread
has had technical difficulties in producing the lager yeast. I understand
that the dehydration was more than the yeast could stand. 

Frank Dobner

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Date: 16 Nov 92 12:30:20 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at radmac1>
Subject: Watered Beers

Subject:  Watered Beers                         Time:7:35 AM     Date:11/16/92
R. Brett Buckingham says:

>IMHO, the bottled version is better, as I suspect some bars
>water the draught beers down.

I'm just curious as to why you suspect this and how you believe it is
acomplished?

RW...

      Russ Wigglesworth              CI$:      72300,61
|~~|  UCSF Medical Center            Internet: Rad Equipment at RadMac1.ucsf.edu
|HB|\ Dept. of Radiology, Rm. C-324  Voice:    415-476-3668 / 474-8126 (H)
|__|/ San Francisco, CA 94143-0628


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Date: 16 Nov 1992 15:43:57 -0500 (EST)
From: Sandy Cockerham <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L at LILLY.COM>
Subject: Yeast for Weizenbock?

I am preparing to brew a weizenbock for an upcoming brewclub event. I am unsure
as to whether I should use a lager yeast or wheat beer yeast.
Can anyone enlighten me on the subject, or steer me to the correct book or 
article?
						thanks  :)

						Sandy

From: COCKERHAM SANDRA L            (MCVAX0::RX31852)

To:   VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE            (IN::"homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com")

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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 15:49:05 -0500
From: pointon at m2c.org (Joel Pointon at staff)
Subject: "Cidre Bouche'"

When visiting relatives in Normandy, I was treated daily to the local
beverage made from the region's harvest of apples.  Basically it is a 
light, dry, sparkling cider that is bottlled in champagne bottles and
is known locally as "Cidre Bouche'".  This drink is different from the beverage of our english cousins across the channel, sometimes call "scruffy".
I would be very interested in finding out if anyone has a homebrew
version of this beverage.  My experiments have so far resulted in
brews very similar to the scruffy "scruffy".  

P.S. Some of you may be familiar with the distilled product made from
"Cidre Bouche'" called Calvados.  Very similar to an apple frangrant 
cognac.

Thanks/Merci

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Date:    Mon, 16 Nov 92 16:02 CST
From: "J Cusick" <ZLPAJIC%LUCCPUA.bitnet at UICVM.UIC.EDU>
Subject: info on beer in the news

Hello All brewers,
I am in a college bind.  I have not yet started the research on the
paper due next tuesday on an ancient artifact.  I am planning to write
on an egyptian brewing vessel and i need to discuss its function and
purpose in society.  the timely news from iran will help but i have
found little else in the way of sources.  can anyone out there
recommend any sources?
I noticed mention recently of a beer brewed from an ancient recipe
by sierra nevada.  is this available in chicago area?  i thought that
by including one of these with my written presentation i could add
some flavor to my research.  I was not able to find the digest
that included mention of this beer so i do not even know its name.
Any help will be greatly appreciated.  If i complete this semester
(and degree) i can get back to brewing
jcusick at orion.it.luc.edu       or       zlpajic at luccpua.it.luc.edu

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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 13:20:44 EST
From: James P. Buchman <buchman at marva1.ENET.dec.com>
Subject: re: Demise of Whitbred?

The homebrew shop near my house in Baltimore, Maryland, also still stocks
Whitbred ale yeast; only the package is slightly different. The rumors
that Whitbred is no longer selling their yeast to homebrewers tempts me
to buy massive quantities of it, but there seems to be no sign of its
going away. Does anyone know whether Whitbred intends to continue selling
their ale yeast?
			Thanks,	
				Jim Buchman

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Date: 17 Nov 92 00:52:09 GMT
From: SynCAccT at slims.attmail.com
Subject: Harringtons or Klages?

In my recent quests to get a cheap pound of 2 row, I came upon a
source that retails directly from Canada Malt. I can get the malt for
about $.60 (Canadian$) per pound and it comes in 100 pound sacks. I
checked out the bag at the suppliers and noticed it didn't say what
variety of barley it was. I had the fellow look into this at the
malters and he reports that it's Harringtons. I asked if they had
Klages, since since many recipes call for Klages. He said that Klages
is not grown anymore, only Harringtons 2 row. This is because the
variety becomes less disease resistant with successive plantings and
therefore the farmers swap batches every 10 years.

Now I was skeptical to hear that farmers sprayed Ammonia on their
soil, but since found out this is true, it's some sort of nitrogen
thing. I therfore beleive any farming lore told to me.

Many brewers supply outlets in Canada and the U.S. sell Klages.
Is this a misnomer or is it Klages, and if it is how old is it? Is
this a Canadian thing, is it bunk, is there difference between
Canadian and US Harringtons or Klages and is there a difference
between Harringtons and Klages malt. Sorry for the huge question,
but maybe a pseudo-agriculture brewing person would be able to let
me know.

Internet: gande at slims.attmail.com
Glenn Anderson - Manager,Telecommunications Facilities
SunLife Of Canada 416-496-4505

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Date: Mon, 16 Nov 92 22:47 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Aging Beer

 
 To: Homebrew Digest
 Fm: Jack Schmidling
 
 The following is excerpted from THE NEW BREWER, May/Jun 1992.  The article is 
 by Fred Scheer, Frankenmuth Brewery.
 
 ..................
 
 "In my research of draft beer, I found that one of the biggest problems is 
 the age of the beer.  As with bottled beer, draft beer does not improve with 
 age!"
 
 "Draft beer is at the peak of freshness and taste the day it is put into the 
 keg.  Ideally, a brewer would be able to fill his kegs in the morning and get 
 them back empty at night.  But because this is not the case, the beer loses 
 quality each day after it is kegged."
 ...................
 
 This view seems at odds with the conventional wisdom of hombrewers and I see 
 two possiblities:
 
 1.  His "research" is seriously flawed.
 
 2.  People who claim that their beer improves with age are 
     simply confused by the fact that the defects in their 
     beer sometimes mellow out or become less obvious with time.
 
 js
 
 
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1014, 11/17/92