FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  The infamous tv-homebrewer... (Kurt Swanson)
  Stealing Soda Kegs? (JCHISM)
  Alternate homebrew club in Chicago area (VANAGS)
  RE: Munich malt, COPS, CO2 (James Dipalma)
  cloudy brew. (James Baker - Schlumberger-GeoQuest - Dallas)
  OVERNIGHT MASH (Jack Schmidling)
  PH color test kits (gcw)
  hop questions (CHUCKM)
  Light Protection (C.R. Saikley)
  Belgian Ale Book - Comments wanted (Joe Rolfe)
  "COPS" episode I saw this past weekend ("Chris Ext.7037")
  Lambiks, HSA, Spiders (C.R. Saikley)
  Fear for Homebrewers (Tim P McNerney)
  Changes at the Archives ("Stephen E. Hansen")
  None ("Michael Blongewicz")
  Small Batches, Wort Starters (Chris Cook, NMOS Quality Engineer - (301)386-7807)
  e-mail test (Brian Bliss)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 5 Jan 1993 14:29:57 +0000 (GMT)
From: Kurt Swanson <Kurt.Swanson at dna.lth.se>
Subject: The infamous tv-homebrewer...

The saddest thing about the whole story of the homebrewer being
arrested on the "COPS" television show, is how many homebrewers watch
that ridiculous show!
- -- 
Kurt Swanson, Dept. of Computer Science,
Lunds universitet.  Kurt.Swanson at dna.lth.se

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Date:     Tue, 5 Jan 1993 08:52 EST
From: JCHISM%HSSCAM.decnet at NETVAX.MIS.SEMI.HARRIS.COM
Subject:  Stealing Soda Kegs?

>Questions:
>   If you obtained soda kegs via a deposit are you stealing from the
>beverage company?  His kegs had warning labels on them.  What if you
>buy refurbished kegs, do these have the names of beverage companies
>stamped on them? Mine do.  I meant to say that the kegs in the first
>sentance were obtained from a redemption center.

I bought refurbished soda kegs (I have 2 of the stubbies) also, and the
refurbisher was carefull enough to remove the names of the beverage
companies using an electric engraver to scratch them out.
  _______________________________________________________________________
 |                                                                       |
 | Jami Chism - The Party Line BBS - 717-868-5435 - 4 Lines, ALL 14.4    |
 |            FREE Access to all callers from 1/8 to 1/18                |
 |_______________________________________________________________________|

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Date:    Tue, 5 Jan 1993 10:05:35 -0600 (CST)
From: VANAGS at ADCALC.FNAL.GOV
Subject: Alternate homebrew club in Chicago area

Hi!

I don't remember who asked about the Chicago Homebrew Club, but I thought
you might want to know about another club.  It's located in the west
suburbs, near Aurora.  

It's the Headhunters Homebrew Club.  Yes, I'm a member.  We meet once a 
month.  The next meeting is coming up on Friday, Jan 8.  Future meetings 
are Feb 5 and March 5.  Our founder is Greg Lawrence.  You can contact 
him at (708) 557-2523.  He also sells homebrew supplies.  

We usually have a pretty good turnout.  Some of our members (including
Greg) have won awards in homebrew competitions.  But there are also plenty
of novice brewers.  Everyone is welcome to come, taste, and enjoy.

						Cheers  ->>Laura

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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 11:24:17 EST
From: dipalma at banshee.sw.stratus.com (James Dipalma)
Subject: RE: Munich malt, COPS, CO2


Hi All,

  In HBD #1048, Cush Hamlen writes:

>...My source for
>Munich malt states that the malt is enzymatic, with sufficient enzymes
>to convert starch without using pale malt.

  This differs from my understanding.  Munich malt is kilned to a degree
sufficient to produce about 10L/lb/gal.  I've always believed that moderate
to high levels of kilning inhibit or destroy subsequent enzyme activity
during mashing.  I use Munich malt frequently for Euro-lagers, but always
mash it along with several pounds of pilsner malt.  Most of the literature
I've read recommends handling Munich malt in this manner, i.e., mash it
along with high enzyme malt such as pale or pilsner.

********************************************************************

  Lots of discussion regarding recent episode of "COPS".  From
Rick Hapanowicz:

>The guy had a keg setup
>for mashing the grains and the Liquor board guy said thats what was needed
>to make the whiskey or grain alcohol.

>The Liquor Board guy stated that if copper tubing was found it was
>part of a still.

  It doesn't surprise me in the least that some pinheaded minion from a
government beaurocracy would be so totally clueless, even given that the
agency involved was the Liquor board and the agent should presumably be
able to differentiate between legal brewing and illegal distillation.

>It seemed as if all the legal authorities involved had no clue on the
>chemistry or engineering involved with homebrewing beer.

  Does anybody else find this a little scary?  The marijuana cultivation
not withstanding, when this man answers to the illegal distillation charge,
he will find himself in the position of having to prove his innocence,
rather than the prosecutor having to prove his guilt.  In view of the
"evidence", how many of us could find themselves in the same situation?

  Sorry to turn this into soc.our.legal.system.sucks.bigtime, I'll come
down off the soapbox now, and get back to discussions of brewing.

*********************************************************************

  Also in HBD #1048, Jack Schmidling writes:

>Here is what I have gotten thus far out of the last one, filled in Dec 1991:

>          49 kegs force carbonated and dispensed
 
>          Hundreds of bottles counter-pressure filled

>There are still a few pounds in the tank and I think it is safe to say that
>the CO2 is in the noise, as an expense in the force vs natural carbonating
>argument.

  I bought a filled 5 pound tank this spring, and so far I've carbonated
and dispensed 25 kegs, counter-pressure filled several dozen bottles, and
there is still some left in the tank.  I've called around, it would cost
me about $7 to get it re-filled, so I consider the cost as trivial.
  Cost aside, the degree of control over carbonation levels that force
carbonation gives is just great!  By keeping the beer refridgerated at a
constant temperature, I can carbonate the beer to a level appropriate for
any given style, just by adjusting the regulator.

>I should point out that I always turn off the tank when not dispensing and
>thereby eliminate losses from leaks.

  Ditto, there's no such thing as a 'leakproof' system.


                                   Cheers,
                                     Jim

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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 17:06:35 GMT
From: baker at dfwdsr.SINet.SLB.COM (James Baker - Schlumberger-GeoQuest - Dallas)
Subject: cloudy brew.


	 I've just brewed my third batch (my second batch exploded), and the
	brew is cloudy.  It's been two weeks since I've bottled, and I've
	opened a couple - they seem ok, carbonation and taste is good.  What
	did I do to cause the cloudiness?!?

				jb

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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 10:40 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: OVERNIGHT MASH

 
 Just for drill, I tried something new with the last batch.  I doughed it in 
 before I went to bed and mashed it in the morning.  My thoughts were along 
 the lines of, the longer it sits in the water, the more likely to soften and 
 saturate all the starch and hence, improve the extract yield.  I used water 
 below room temp instead of the usual 90F so as to discourage bacterial 
 action.
 
 I got my usual 30 pts/gal/lb so it didn't help a bit and I may have only 
 proved that my mill does a good job but it would be interesting to know if it 
 helps others who use Coronas or poorly crushed grain.
 
 It is still in the primary but I can not detect any obvious diference in the 
 taste at this point.
 
 js
 

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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 14:41 EST
From: gcw at granjon.att.com
Subject: PH color test kits


>Date:    Thu, 31 Dec 92 07:53:38 EST
>From: Jim White <JWHITE at MAINE.maine.edu>
>Subject: My extract rate woes, your responses.


>   I went to an aquarium store and picked up a pH test kit, ( one of these
>   where you drop x drops of this stuff into a measured amount of water, than
>   note the color).

>    Results

>    Source                               pH

>    Water fresh (cold) from tap.         7.0  (Water district said it'd be 8.3)
>    Same boiled with cover off(20mins)   8.0
>    Same boiled with cover on(20mins)    8.0
>    Same raised to 180F                  7.0
>>    Same raised to 200F                  7.3 (approx)

>    I noted absolutely no mineral precipitation in my boiler after a 1/2 hour
>    boil. I had also expected the pH to drop as a result of the boil, but
>    the opposite occured. Adding 1t of Gypsum to about 2 gals of boiled water
>    did not lower the pH a measurable amount (still looked the same color).
>    I suppose it's near enough to neutral so as to expect little help from
>    the gypsum.

>    What seemed odd was that the pH started to raise between 180 and 200F.

The temp of the water does effect the color drop PH test. I know this
because of testing my spa - if I leave the test water in the tester
overnight the results (colors) will be different then when I first
tested at 100F. Why this is true - I don't have a clue.

Another thing that effects the color drop PH test is chlorine - this can
be corrected with chlorine neutralizer drops. I don't remember off hand
which way the chlorine effects the PH test.

The PH in my area is so high it is off the scale - the highest listing
on the tester is 8.0 and is a medium dark red color and my water turns
almost purple. Since I only do partial mash's, I have not worried about
lowering the PH to an exact level (just throw some gypsum in), but when I 
start to I'll have to buy the acid stuff by the gallon!


Geoff Woods	| It's not just sluggin' gorms neemer!	|
		| ( not just for breakfast anymore	|

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Date: 05 Jan 93 15:21:59 EST
From: CHUCKM at PBN73.Prime.COM
Subject: hop questions

Having just read Continental Pilsener  (xmas gift) I have
a few questions/comments that may spark some discussion.

  1. Miller indicates that pellet hops yield a greater utilization than
     whole hops , thus, less ounces of pellets are required than whole
     hops.

  2. Miller indicates that pellets need only be boiled for 15 minutes.

  3. Miller indicates that extract brews need not be boiled for more than
     45 minutes and maybe as little as 15 minutes.

Did I misinterpret.... Does anyone have any comments on these Items as
they seem to be somewhat contrary to what I have previously believed.
But, far be it for me to contradict Miller.

Happy Brewing
Chuckm

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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 12:13:34 PST
From: humphrey!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Light Protection



Tom Kaltenbach asks about protecting his beer from light produced by a 15W
bulb in the fridge. Here's my two cents.

Some plastics are good UV absorbers, and others are fairly transmissive. 
Untreated polycarbonate lenses (commonly used in spectacles) transmit less
than 0.1% in the UVB region, and around 3% in the UVA. I've seen other 
plastics transmit up to 30% in UVB and 75% in UVA. While I'm only about two
feet from a transmittance spectrophotometer, I don't have any plastic 
fermenters handy, so I can't say what their transmittance properties are. 

On the other hand, the visible part of the spectrum may cause harm to your
beer as well.  I've seen references stating that 520nm light (green) is 
particularly effective at making beer go skunky, although this magic number
of 520nm seems to be steeped in a certain amount of mystery. The point
is, to be on the safe side, you want to protect your beer from visible
light as well as UV. Here's the low tech solution:

Take a standard grocery bag and cut an airlock sized hole in the bottom
center. Invert the bag and place it over your standard 5 gallon glass
carboy, with airlock protruding thru the airlock sized hole. Your carboy
will be neatly jacketed, and protected from light. This should be more
than enough protection from a 15W bulb.


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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 15:20:48 EST
From: Joe Rolfe <jdr at wang.com>
Subject: Belgian Ale Book - Comments wanted

hi all

just a short reminder to all those who noted problems, misunderstandings
or any thing of positive or negative nature dealing with Pierre Rajotte and his
Belgian Ale Book.
Several people have commented that the book was not hitting the mark...

I will be traveling to Montreal - probably in late Febuary/ early March, 
of which I will be spending a majority of the time with Pierre.  I have talked
to him about this and he agreed to clarify any points of confusion.  These
responses will either be mailed back via email, posted or snail-mail, depending
on how many I receive (so far very few...). 

I will send one more reminder out a couple of weeks before I leave..
	So take your shots now or forever hold your books ;)

All comments can be sent to the address below, I will print them and deliver
to Pierre.

- -- 
joe rolfe 
jdr at wang.com    
508-967-5760

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Date: Mon, 4 Jan 1993 10:31 EST
From: "Chris Ext.7037" <CDAVID at LANDO.HNS.COM>
Subject: "COPS" episode I saw this past weekend

Did anyone see the segment in which they got a search warrent on a guys house
who they suspected of growing marijiana and operating a whiskey still...
anything for ratings, but this one might have harmed the homebrewers...

yea, the guy was growing marijuana (being a Libertarian, this does not bother
me, and is his right) but the real clincher on this ine was that the STUPID
cop thought he was operating a still... he had all the goodies most of us
have in our homes... wort chiller, CO2 tanks, kegs, coolers, and get this...
a copy of "The Complete guide to Homebrewing..." was shown, and it never even
dawned on these guys that this guy just MIGHT be brewing beer... nope, guilty
until proven innocent is their motto.  In later comment, the cop who made
the bust what saying that "sure, this guy may make 10 or so good batches of
liquor, but sooner or later he'd make a batch that would blind someone..."

What a Maroon!
Chris David

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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 13:18:43 PST
From: humphrey!cr at uunet.UU.NET (C.R. Saikley)
Subject: Lambiks, HSA, Spiders

From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)

>Negative effects due to HSA are usually reflected in a flavor the 
>Germans call "Herbstoffe."  Roughly translated this means "grain bitter"
>or "grain astringency."  Although, I do not have Martin's vast tasting
>experience with Lambics, the ones I have tasted in Europe have never
>shown any indication of Herbstoffe.  Sometimes I pick up astringent
>tones in bottled Lambics which have been imported to the U.S.  I
>believe, however, these flavor tones are artifacts, i.e., resulted
>from the beer's long journey across the Atlantic, and are not intrinsic
>to this beer style.

Does this so called "grain bitterness" taste anything like the usual 
flavor defects we associate with oxidation? (sherry==>cardboard) Or is 
it a different beast? If I wanted to taste this flaw, where could I 
find a clear example? Would an old bottle of Anchor suffice?

As far as lambiks go, traditional brewers go to great lengths to avoid
oxidizing their aging beers. It is considered very important to not
disturb the pellicle that forms on aging beer, because it provides some
protection from the air in the ullage. Furthermore, oxidized or metallic 
tastes are definitely not the norm for a lambik. I suspect that they
don't suffer from the effects of HSA, but can't be certain until I've
found a clear example of Herbstoffe.

>we have in the Southwest a number of really 
>dedicated Lambic brewers.  A couple of these have gone to great
>lengths to simulate the actual Lambic brewing environment, including
>both splashing hot wort as well as having cob webs in their brewing
>area.  

		[snip]

>If I were given a vote, I would 
>place as No. 1 on the list the removal of the cob webs; removal of 
>splashing comes further down on the list!  

In Belgium, there are different schools of thought regarding the presence
of cob webs in a lambik brewery. There are those who consider them a
valuable asset. The Cantillon brewery for example has quite a large spider 
population. The pro spider camp points out (as did Martin) that spiders
are useful in reducing the number of fruitflies, which harbor acetic acid
critters. 

On the other hand, when I was visiting Timmerman's, they were in the
process of scrubbing down the walls. I questioned my host, Mr. Jack
VanAntwerpen, about the possibility of disturbing friendly biota. His
reply was something to the effect of "BUNK!" His feeling was that
although the image of a cob web laden brewery was poetic, there are
better ways of controlling fruitflies than with spiders!

There are certainly some very picturesque breweries in Belgium, and the
cob webs definitely add to the ambiance. But if you're interested in
making psuedo lambiks, there are many more important things to consider
than your spider population!

Cheers,
CR

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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 16:20:01 PST
From: tpm%wdl58 at wdl1.wdl.loral.com (Tim P McNerney)
Subject: Fear for Homebrewers


The last couple of issues of HBD have brought up what I consider a
very dangerous trend among homebrewers.  Yes, they are watching the
TV show COPS.  

Maybe the cops' fears that the 'brew' in question would cause 
blindness or death was not far off the mark.  It could have even
worse side effects, watching braindead television shows (redundancy
if I ever heard it).  Better to be blind or dead.

But did you see the episode from Las Vegas where...

I need a homebrew.

- --Tim

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Date: Tue, 05 Jan 93 16:37:57 -0800
From: "Stephen E. Hansen" <hansen at Sierra.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Changes at the Archives

Over the holidays I spent some time reorganizing the Homebrew Archives
at Sierra.Stanford.EDU.  The first change that you will notice is that
almost all files have been placed in subdirectories such as "docs",
"programs", "digests", etc.  The most significant change however is
that the issues of the Hombrew Digest are now stored as individual
files rather than shar files or tar files.  The Digest index files now
cover a whole year and the index for the current year is updated with
each new issue.  New issues will also be placed directly in the
appropriate subdirectory (i.e. digests/1933) as they are received.

Storing the digests in individual files was done primarily for those
who must access the archives via the listserver, as the monthly shar
had gotten too big for most mailers, but it also seemed that most of
the ftp access was for only one or two issues.

Those of you who don't follow the rec.crafts.brewing newsgroup might
be interested in the contents of the "images" directory.  It currently
has about 70 files containing pictures of various beer labels and
coasters in GIF and JPEG format.

Stephen Hansen
homebrewer, archivist

- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------
 Stephen E. Hansen - hansen at sierra.Stanford.EDU  | "The church is near,
 Electrical Engineering Computer Facility        |  but the road is icy.
 Applied Electronics Laboratory, Room 218        |  The bar is far away,
 Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-4055    |  but I will walk carefully."
 Phone: +1-415-723-1058   Fax: +1-415-725-7298   |      -- Russian Proverb
- -------------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: 5 Jan 93 16:18:46 U
From: "Michael Blongewicz" <esri!mailgate.noname!mblongewicz at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: None

                       Subject:                               Time:5:17 PM
  OFFICE MEMO          None                                   Date:12/18/92
To whom it may concern:

Please include me in your distribution of the Homebrew Digest [HBD].  My
address is mblongewicz at esri.com

If you are in need of more information, or I need to do something more inorder
to start receiving HBD, then please let me know at the above address. 

Thank you

Michael



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Date: Tue, 5 Jan 93 23:09:48 -0500
From: cook at uars.DNET.NASA.GOV (Chris Cook, NMOS Quality Engineer - (301)386-7807)
Subject: Small Batches, Wort Starters

I don't know who remembers, but a few months ago I started trying to brew
small, 1-gallon batches of experimental beer.  I got a lot of advice from
people through the HBD, so I thought I'd post a status report.

As a quick recap, I started playing around with small, all-grain batches
so that I could try many different grain bills without the cost and
alcoholism that lost of 5-gallon batches would require.  I'd just bought
a slew of Belgian malts and, as always, patience was the resource in
short supply.  What flavor would biscuit malt add?  How Aromatic?  Should
I use 1 or 2 pounds?  Despite several letters that implied disaster, I
figured, what the hell.

The first two batches were basically 1/5 scaled versions:

                              Recipe 1       Recipe 2
                              --------       --------
Belgian Pale Malt               2.5             1.5
Belgian Caravienne              -               1.0
Gypsum                          1/4 tsp       1/4 tsp
Cascades (boil)                 1/4 oz        1/4 oz
Cascades (aroma)                1/4 oz        1/4 oz
Irish Moss                     ~1/4 tsp      ~1/4 tsp

Mash-in  at  122 degrees (30 min), heat to 155 til done, mash out at 170. 
I did the best on measuring the hops using a little postal scale.

I ended up using every pot that I owned, but brewing two small batches
was less work than one 5-gallon batch.  The only difference was that the
boil was better for the small batches; I'll have to scale the boil back
to duplicate my 5-gallon capabilities.

The people who said that I would have trouble with hop rates and
measuring hops were correct.  Maybe it was the active boil.  The small
batches had hops like I've never brewed before!  One week after bottling,
the hops flavor would have been classified as 'caustic' for both batches,
although at this point the hops have relaxed a bit and the beer is damn
good, with a pleasant lemon/citrus flavor that I expect came from the
Cascades.  My wife loved it too, puzzling me (as always) me no end. 
Unfortunately, the subtle differences in malts were completely lost.

People said that, with the small thermal inertia of 1 gallon, the old
cooler/lauter-tun wouldn't work well and that infusion mashing was
probably out of the question.  Well, nyah nyah nyah-nyah nyah!  I
converted a 1-gallon cooler to a mash/lauter-tun and (to my chagrin) it
worked better and more efficiently than my big 44-quart, slotted-copper-
pipe rectangular one.  It held temperature quite well for hours.  I liked
it enough that I got a two-gallon cooler for small high-gravity batches,
but I haven't tried it yet.

Given the hops overload, I made batches 3, 4 and 5 this way:


                        Recipe 3    Recipe 4    Recipe 5
                        --------    --------    --------
Belgian Pale Malt         2 #        1.5 #       1.5 #
Belgian Caravienne                   1 #
Belgian Aromatic                                 1 #
Cascades (boil)          1/8 oz      1/8 oz      1/8 oz
Cascades (aroma)        ~1/16 oz    ~1/16 oz    ~1/16 oz
Irish Moss              ~1/4 tsp    ~1/4 tsp    ~1/4 tsp

The aroma hops weights were more by eye than weight.  I bottled them a
week ago, but I haven't tried them yet.  We'll see how these go, but I'm
having fun so far.

On another note, yesterday I was brewing a medium-high gravity ale (14#
of grain) and, as expected, after I got my 6+ gallons the runoff was
still reading about 1.020.  I let the lauter-tun empty into the spare pot
and I got about a gallon of weak wort, all dressed up with nowhere to go. 
I had also just used up my last quart of starter.  Some time ago I
started canning yeast starter wort in mason jars, and it's a great time-
saver.  Just boil some wort, pour it into hot jars, put on new lids and
boil in water a few minutes.  The jars are sterile and ready whenever I
need them.  So after thinking about the added hassle of looking for my
last pound of DME, I actually had a good idea and used the runnings to
make 4 yeast starters.

I do have a question: does canning the wort (sometimes stored for months)
introduce any problems that anyone can think of?  I know cooling a wort
slowly is supposed to allow DMS to build up, but I hope the
concentrations in a quart will hurt much.  The jars are clear, but
they're in the dark with the rest of my preserves.  Any other
considerations I've missed?  I hope not, since it's really handy.

Chris Cook                                cook at uars.dnet.nasa.gov


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Date: Wed, 6 Jan 93 00:59:38 CST
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: e-mail test


ignore... bb.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1049, 01/06/93