FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Diminishing Yields (Joseph Nathan Hall)
  re:enzymes in pale malt (Jim Busch)
  lab vs food grade, Krausening, and The Brews Paper (Ulick Stafford)
  Homebrew supplies in the Midwest... (Michael  Gerard)
  HDPE and Lab Chemicals (Bruce Mueller)
  decoction mashing (Roy Styan)
  The Dangers of a High Temp Sparge (korz)
  RE: Mead Questions (Hardy M. Cook)
  Cold plates, Mash tuns (Arthur Evans)
  skimming ("Knight,Jonathan G")
  Pete's Wicked Ale (Leo Woessner)
  COPS and Civil Forfeiture (Richard Stueven)
  Cold Plates (Jack Schmidling)


Send articles for __publication__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
    (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
    listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
    message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
**Please do not send me requests for back issues!**
*********(They will be silenty discarded!)*********
**For Cat's Meow information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu**


----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 20:43:48 EDT
From: joseph at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Subject: Re: Diminishing Yields

CR says (Jack says):
)  I find that even with boiling water going in 
) >at the top, the average temperature of the mash is around 150F.  
) 
) Some years back, I began measuring temperature profiles thru the mash while
) sparging. Like Jack, I found that my water had to be much hotter than 168 to
) get the mash up to that temp. This makes sense for at least two reasons :
) [etc.]

I doubt that it makes much difference what the temperature of the
mash during sparging is so long as it is relatively hot and <165-170F.
If it's <168F, sparge slower.  The sugar *will* diffuse out, no matter
what the temperature is.

) [etc.]
) 1) Losses in the system, especially if your sparge water is sprayed over the
) grain bed.

This is easily avoided if you have a cover over the bed.  I have a
Zapap-type setup and have a perforated lid on my inner bucket.  

Usually the stuff coming out of my sparging setup is pitifully cold 
(140-155F) but I get yields in the 30-33 points/lb range for barley malts,
so it can't be hurting me.  Not much, anyway!
 
) As Jack pointed out, getting around the first factor is pretty simple : raise
) the temp of your sparge water. Getting around the second problem is more of a
) hassle. You would sparge with more water, and collect more (weaker) wort.
) Then boil the *%$# out of it to reduce the volume. [...]

Old British Beers suggests collecting wort until the gravity has fallen
to 15 points below the target gravity (i.e., 1.085 for a beer that
is to be pitched at 1.100), then, if you want, boiling whatever you
collect afterward separately until it reaches 15 points below.  I
have no evidence to support my belief, but I think this should
reduce carmelization and color changing effects.

================O Fortuna, velut Luna, statu variabilis================
uunet!joebloe!joseph   (609) 273-8200 day   joseph%joebloe at uunet.uu.net
2102 Ryan's Run East        Rt 38 & 41             Maple Shade NJ 08052
Copyright 1992 by Joseph N. Hall.   Permission granted to copy and
redistribute freely over USENET and by email.  Commercial use prohibited.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 9:12:23 EST
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: re:enzymes in pale malt

In the last digest Jeff wrote:

<Date: Wed, 13 Jan 93 13:03:05 MST
<From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
<Subject: Re: Diminishing yields

<Also, make sure your later grain bills didn't include disproportionately
<high percentages of specialty malts like Munich or crystal.  If you
<don't have enough pale malt, you won't get enough enzymatic activity to
<get a full conversion.  (Try the iodine test next time if you're not
<sure -- a drop of iodine in a bit of mash liquid will turn purple/black
<if there are still unconverted starches.

In general, this is not true.  Domestic malts will contain more enzyme 
potential than you could ever use.  Even modern continental malts will
have enough enzymes for just about any all malt beer.  The use of Munich
and crystal malts in just about any reasonable percentage will work fine.
I believe low yields are primarily related to methods of mashing and 
lautering.  All other variables being the same, if your extract goes 
down when your grain bill goes up, check the lauter tun. When I was 
using the Zapap method, there was a breakeven point where more malt 
yielded the same extract.  I blame this on the compaction and loss of
efficient lautering due to higher grain mass.  

I have a friend who uses 
the (IMHO) poorly designed Phils lauter tun and he has the exact same 
problem with compaction yielding lower extract efficiency.  My complaint
with the Phils system is that the tube from the false botom has to 
rise up out of the false bottom to then exit the bucket.  This can lead
to a problem with an air bubble forming inside the tube.  I have seen
extremely slow runoffs that I think are due to this design.  Of course, 
anyone can correct this (and see if Im right!) by simply drilling a 
hole in the bottom and plugging up the normal tube outlet.

Jim Busch






Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 10:06:09 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at bernini.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: lab vs food grade, Krausening, and The Brews Paper


Jon Binkley responded to my article with a number of inaccuracies
and an arrogant attitude.  I thought that the idea of this forum
was to pass brewing information of use to brewers, rather than
passing old myths, like that lab grade (ACS grade) chemicals will
kill you quicker than 5 ml of sodium penthathol (or whatever).

Myth 1.  Food grade chemicals (Codex) are purer than lab chemicals -NOT.

ACS grade is the highest grade that can be obtained resonably, unless it's
not good enough and ACS will set a higher standard for manufacuturers to
aim at.  ACS standards are improved as technical feasibility of production
improves.  Food grade is that which satisfies certain health standards for
toxins.  For instance, I listed certain parameters for lab and food
phosphoric acid.  Both have the same heavy metals as lead requirement, but
for the other parameters the lab grade was much, much, better than
the food grade.

Myth 2. Lab grade is cheaper than food grade -NOT

500 g of phosphoric acid costs around $25 from Fisher or $12 from Sigma.
I am sure Coca-Cola pays much less.  But the problem is that food grade
phosphoric acid does not seem to be available in small quantities.

CAVEAT:  While I am very happy that lab grade phosphoric acid is better
than food grade, this may not be the case for all chemical you may use.
However, be aware and educated.  Question all statements that are not
backed up by solid evidence, especially those where the reason is no
better than you're not supposed to because the government say so.  And
beware of supposed experts wearing underpants on their arms!!

Other things.  I noticed in r.c.b that many people have been defining
krausening as priming with sterile wort, rather than the correct
definition - priming with a small quantitiy of beer in the krausen 
stage.  The source of this misinformation seems to be Charlie P.'s
book.  Perhaps he should write an erratum pamphlet (a sheet wouldn't
be big enough).

Anyone seen a paper calle The Brews Paper?  

Ulick Stafford
ulick at bernini.helios.nd.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 12:09:56 -0500
From: Michael Gerard <mgerard at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Homebrew supplies in the Midwest...

Does anyone know of any homebrew supply places in the midwest (specifically
near Ann Arbor, MI)? I found one place here but it is still less expensive
to buy the grain from St. Pat's in Texas and have it shipped up.  There
should be some place near the "grain belt" that sells grain.  Any help
would be appreciated.

Thanks

Mike

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 9:33:17 PST
From: Bruce Mueller <mueller at sdd.hp.com>
Subject:  HDPE and Lab Chemicals

Wayde writes in HBD#1054,

>If these HDPE plastics are permeable to CO2 then wouldn't O2 
>(oxygen), being a smaller molecule, be as or more capable of passing through
>the plastic? Maybe Bruce Mueller can comment? 

Well, you might think so.  Chemistry isn't that simple :'(.  I had to get the
numbers this time (I knew the other answer, but not quantitatively) so here
they are:

Permeabilities in cm3xmm/s/cm2/cmHg (yes, pressure in cmHg) at 30C:

O2:  10.6	CO2:  35	H2O (vapor, 90% rel. hum., 25C):  130

For comparison purposes, the numbers for PET (soft drink bottles):

O2:  0.22 Wow!	CO2:  1.53	H2O (same cond'ns):  1300

My reference is "Polymer Permeability" edited by J. Comyn.  It's a British
book I believe.  Isn't that PET amazing at keeping O2 in or out?

Lou in the same issue "accused" :) me of pressurizing my HDPE jugs.  
Actually, this isn't true.  I counted on the airline to do the reverse--the hold
is at low pressure, the bottle filled at about sea level.  But based on this,
about 1/2 atm vacuum not causing any liquid leakage AND HDPE's strength,
I extrapolated to the pressurized case.  Extrapolating is sometimes dangerous,
but I certainly wouldn't worry in this case, because HDPE is not brittle.
Please DO NOT pressurize ANY water bottle style carboy, glass or plastic.
Come to think of it, one of the British contributions to homebrewing is the
polypin (see Dave Line's "The Big Book of Brewing").  These are polyethylene
and used as "kegs".  Probably not the best idea, in light of its oxygen
permeability (Wayde referred to this). 

On another note, Ulick had a great point about non food grade chemicals.  I
trust the assays on these (e.g. ACS grade) as much as or more than the USP
variety--they are generally purer.  In HBD#1055 Jon recommend again against
these, unless one is aware of toxicology.  This is a good point.  Would some-
one knowledgable about toxicology enlighten us about the "real" limits for
long-term consumption of e.g. lead?  I think most homebrewers who would go to
the trouble of obtaining lab-grade chemicals also would have sufficient 
ability to calculate their "dosage" of such nasties (simple dilution).  I hope
so.

I hope this time more than the header gets through!

Yours in brewing,
Bruce Mueller
Analytical Chemist by training

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 09:43:53 PST
From: rstya at mda.ca (Roy Styan)
Subject: decoction mashing

I have been experimenting with decoction mashes for the last 5 or 6 brews, and
have been experiencing a common problem with each.  The final gravities have
all been very high, typically 1025.  This seems to be independant of yeast
strain (I've used several different ones, both lager and ale) and only somewhat
dependent of mash temperature.  With very low temps (64C - 65C) I have brought
the gravity down to 1018, but this is not always the case.

So what gives?  Does docoction destroy more of the alpha enzymes than beta,
yielding full conversion, but with lots of dextrins?  Is it possible to get
a low final gravity with decoction?


 - Roy

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 11:28 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: The Dangers of a High Temp Sparge

Recently, there's been some discussion of sparge water temperatures.
At least two brewer's have suggested using very hot boiling or
almost boiling water for sparging.  The ususal argument against
using sparge water over 170F is that additional tannins are extracted
from the grain above this temperature.  I agree that a too-hot
sparge will make your beer a bit astringent (due to the increased
tannins), but there's another reason for keeping the sparge water
below 170F, and that is STARCH EXTRACTION.  Once you're done with
the saccharification rest, you should make very sure you're not
extracting any more unconverted starch from your grains.  One very
cloudy beer I've tried in the past was, upon further investigation,
sparged with boiling water.

Finally, I've brought this up once in the past, but no one commented
and I just forgot about it, but I'd like to bring it up again for
the sake of discussion:

   Could it be that we don't want the grain bed during the sparge to
   be *AT* 170F, rather we want the *sparge water* to be at 170F and
   we should let the grain bed (in an insulated tun) settle at whatever
   temperature it wants?  Can someone who has "Brewing and Malting
   Science" please look this up?  Darryl, what sparge temp is used for
   Pilsner Urquell?

Comments?

Al.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 15:38:18 EST
From: hmcook at boe00.minc.umd.edu (Hardy M. Cook)
Subject: RE: Mead Questions

I began brewing mead this past fall.  I didn't use acid blend in my
first batch and it turned out just fine, and I did include it in the 
batch I made last week though to soften the alcohol warmth.  As for
honey, you can get dependable results from Clover honey.  I buy mine
in five pound jar at the local Price Club discount house (less than
five dollars a jar).


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 12:51:45 -0800
From: arthur at chiba.esd.sgi.com (Arthur Evans)
Subject: Cold plates, Mash tuns


 -> Cold plates and other serving devices

Since there's been some discussion of cold plates
for serving beer here, it might be worthwhile to
mention that there's an article in one of the Zymurgy
special issues (I think it's the "gadgets" issue)
has instructions for building a "mini-jockey-box."

Basically, this consists of a water cooler with a
beer line running through it.  On one side you have 
a serving tap, on the other side you have a line
running to your keg, and inside the cooler you have
a coil of copper tubing ("look, officer! it's a condenser!"
sorry--wrong show) connecting the two.  Beer flows
through the line and gets cooled by the ice that
you cleverly placed in the cooler for this purpose.

Anyway, it sounded like it would work and not cost
too much, and best of all, it's yet another excuse 
to play around in the garage with power tools. (And
isn't that half the fun of new equipment?)

Anyway, I've seen some version of these jockey boxes
at a number of events (beer festivals, outdoor concerts,
etc.), and they seem to work all right, but I'd be 
interested to hear if anyone has tried making one at
home.  I'm thinking of making one for my illustrious
brother's wedding (to serve beer, not as a wedding present--
so don't get your hopes up, Stew).

 -> Mash tuns

On a completely unrelated topic, I'm contemplating the
leap into all-grain brewing after many a year of 
extract brewing.  I'm thinking about constructing a 
picnic-cooler type mash tun, and I'm wondering what
size I need.  The local Sears sells 5-gallon coolers,
but I suspect that's too small for making 5-gallons
batches.  Can anyone who has this kind of mash tun 
tell me 1) what size they have, 2) what size batches
they make (how much grain, how many gallons), and 
3) where they scored the damn thing?

Many thanks to anyone who can help me on this,

	-arthur




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 15:06:20 cdt
From: "Knight,Jonathan G" <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
Subject: skimming


I've been following the discussion on skimming with interest.  Tell me, 
someone, would this skimming at the beginning of the boil be recommended for 
extract brews as well?  So far it has been discussed only in relation to all-
grain procedures.

This isn't called skimmy-dipping, I suppose....?

Jonathan

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 17:58:46 EST
From: woessner at psych.purdue.edu (Leo Woessner)
Subject: Pete's Wicked Ale

  I would like to try to clone Pete's Wicked Ale.  I would appreciate anyone who
has made such a ale, to post the recipe, and/or mail me a copy.  A friend of mine ne   
mine has just started to brew and very much enjoys Pete's Wicked Ale.  Being a 
beginer I would like a extract recipe.  Any sujestions on O.G., Hops, and malt
will be very helpful.  
  Over Christmas I visited my parents in Colorado and had the fortune to visit
the Walnut Street brew-pub in boulder.  The served a tremendous stut called 
Devils Thoumb Stout.  It was a mild stout (closser to a Porter) with a coffee
aroma and taste.  I was taken by the way in which the maltyness of the beer 
went with this coffe-like flavor.  I asked the man who gave us a tour about the 
beer.   He tpld me that there was no coffe in the beer but they used generous amounts of
amounts of chocolate-malt to achieve the flavor.  He was not teriably informativev
, so I am not totally convinced that there is no coffe in the beer.  Last week-
end I made a porter with 3/4 pound of chocolate malt to try to get the coffee-
like flavor.  Recipe:
       				
	3.3# John Bull dark malt extract
	3.3# Munto and Fision light extract
	1/2# amber DME
	3/4# chocolate malt
	1oz cascade hops(60 min)(4HBU
	2oz fuggles hops(60 min(10 hbu)
	1oz cascade hops (steep 20 min while cooling)
	1/8 oz Hallertau hops(steep)(Just because I had them ;-)
	Whitebread Ale yeast
If anyone out there has made a stout or a porter similiar to Devils Thomb stout
I would appreciate a recipe.  I also would apreciate any recipies, tips, hints,
or magic spells that would help me make such a stuot or porter.

    				Thanks in advance

					Estes oF Manang

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 1993 15:02:45 -0800
From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>
Subject: COPS and Civil Forfeiture

If you're frightened, angered, or just curious about the idea of police
entering your home or car, seizing everything you own, and forcing you
to sue the government to get it back, you'll be interested in a series
of articles from the Pittsburgh Press.  The series is called "Presumed
Guilty", and I have ASCII and PostScript versions available to anyone
who asks.

Being somewhat off the topic of brewing, this will be the only time
I'll bring this up on HBD, but email conversations are welcome.  I
figured the recent uproar justified this single article.

thx
gak

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 14 Jan 93 23:10 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Cold Plates

 
 I feel like Don Quixote on this issue but when I find something that really 
 works, I tend to be a real crusader.......
 
 >From: orgasm!davevi at uunet.UU.NET (David Van Iderstine)
 
 >I've had some experience with these things, which was not good. I made the
 mistake of adding ice over the cold plate before I had beer running through
 it. It seems that ice crystals formed *inside* the plate's tubes, with the
 result being incredibly foamy beer at the tap that did not go away for
 days (it was a looong party! :-). 
 
 I am not sure how or why ice crystals would form inside but they would 
 quickly go away when the warm beer hit them and they certainly are not the 
 reason for the foaming.
 
 >The advise I was given (I'm afraid much too late!) was to get the beer 
 running first, then chill the plate down.
 
 In my case, it is always hooked up so there is always beer in the line.  You 
 do have a different situation but not likely to have anything to do with 
 foaming. 
 
 In the likely event that THAT advise didn't work either, try mine.
 
 Turn off your brain and crank up the pressure.  Don't think about it, it 
 causes migrains.  Just DO it!  Try 25 or 30 lbs.
 
 I guarantee you, there is some pressure somewhere that will pour properly and 
 with a cold plate it is about twice what you are used to.
 
 >From: "Chauncey T. Griggs" <grig0009 at student.tc.umn.edu>
 >In HBD#1054, arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling) writes:
 
 >>I didn't have a silver dollar handy this afternoon but I had no problem
 >>floating a Costa Rican 25 Centimos piece on a glass of the World's Greatest
 >>Beer.
  
 >Is that anyting like a wooden nickel??? :^)
 
 Who me?  No, actually it is about the size of a quarter but is made of 
 aluminum.
 
 You should have heard my wife when HER glass of beer had a dime and a quarter 
 on the bottom and 25 Cetimos on the top.  She politely suggested that I 
 conduct my experiments with my glass.
 
 Actually, I think I could float a quarter if I took the time to build up the 
 head in the traditional way but it was an afterthought after pouring the 
 beer.  
 
 I will report back after I try it.
 
 js
 

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #1056, 01/15/93