FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: Corn Sugar in Root Beer (Paul dArmond)
  Micah's magical yeast starters ("Bob Jones")
  roller diameter (SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42)
  yeast nutrition (jason)
  Re: roller mill rollers (larryba)
  Refrigerators (Phillip Seitz)
  lactic acid / BAA (Brian Bliss)
  Public service announcement (korz)
  re:  recipe request (maple) (Eric M. Mrozek)
  Irish red ale recipe idea (Rob Bradley)
  Adams Family Boston Brewery ("Richard Withers")
  Mead and Extract Brewing... (STBLEZA)
  Rolling Rocks #33 (Michael T. Lobo)
  The Taste of Dextrose (Joseph Nathan Hall)
  Semi-beginner question (Chris Kagy)
  Wild Yeasts (Nir Navot)
  Re: Kicking that horse (Desmond Mottram)
  RE: Kicking Dead Horse for Better Extraction ("John Robinson, King's College London")
  chocolate porter ("PAUL EDWARDS")
  Answers (Michael D. Galloway)
  Aeration ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  Birmingham Brewing Tour (part III) (Guy McConnell)
  Found Beer (Matt Downs)
  is it too late for the secondary? (DJH0)


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		-----------------------------

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1993 08:46:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Re: Corn Sugar in Root Beer

Mike Gildner asks about using corn sugar in root beer.  I've used corn
sugar and Equal(tm) [asparatame] to make diet root beer for a friend's
father who is diabetic.  We used four cups (about a pound +/-) of corn
sugar and a huge number of packets of Equal following the substitution
directions.  It worked fine and was rated as better than store-bought.

Homebrewed soft drinks contain very little alcohol, since the CO2 stomps
the yeast after it reaches a certain level.  I've also made root beer and
force carbonated it in a 5-gal soda keg.

I don't know what the store-bought root beers use to increase the richness
of the mouth feel.  Small amounts of glycerine or Irish moss (carageenan)
are possibilities, but I don't know of anyone who has published recipes
for full-bodied root beer.


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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 09:05:06 PST  
From: "Bob Jones" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
Subject: Micah's magical yeast starters

For a very short review, Micah advocated using powdered sugar for yeast
starters with some Difco nutrient. His claims of greater yeast growth got
all interested. I too have used this growth technique for a while with no
big obvious problems.

Now for the update.....

I recently decided to compare the two yeast starter techniques. The two
techniques being, standard starter (DME and water) and powdered sugar
starter. I split a 10 gallon batch of wort for comparison. Both starters
were the same gravity (1020) and volume and the yeast was the same (1028).
The two batches were fermented side by side at the same temp. I feed both
starters the morning of brew day. The powdered sugar starter (PSS) seemed to
generate much more yeast than the DME starter. The activity in the PSS was
almost zero through the whole growth phase, compared to the DME starter that
looks like a normal mini-fermentation. This is a bit troubling when you
observe the two side by side. I pitched them both and waited. The next
morning the DME starter batch was at high krausen, the PSS had no sign of
fermentation. The PSS started several hours later. The DME batch stopped
fermentation at about 3 days, and the PSS continued for several more days.
The terminal gravities were measured at about 1 week. The DME batch had
better attenuation than the PSS batch. The PSS batch never reached as low a
terminal gravity as the DME batch after several weeks. I have now kegged
them separately and will taste and continue my comparisons. My opinion at this
point in time is that although there may be much more yeast growth with a
PS starter the results when compared to a standard DME starter may not be
what one desires. I mentioned all this to Micah and he said it could be due
to the lack of Difco nutrient in the PSS. I don't think so. He thought the
results were interesting, too. He agrees now that PSS may not be so good.
Personally I am going back to DME starters, and don't recommend PS starters.
I'll post the taste off results when their all in.

Bob Jones

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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 10:27:34 -0800
From: SCHREMPP_MIKE/HP4200_42 at pollux.svale.hp.com
Subject: roller diameter

I got a few requests for the diameter of the rollers in I saw in a catalog.

I don't have the catalog with me, but the picture of the rollers looked like
they were somewhere between 1.5" and 2". I'll have another look tonight to
see if the diametre is listed.

Mike Schrempp

P.S. - My wife can rip a good one now and then. I suggest a big bowl of French
       Onion soup followed by large amounts of high quality cheese fondue.

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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 10:52:42 -0800
From: jason at beamlab.ps.uci.edu
Subject: yeast nutrition


Ok, say I want to make a quickish mead, but I don't
have any yeast nutrients.

I know that malt extracts have the required goodness.

How many lbs of malt extract would I need to add to the
boil (for a 5 gallon or 1 gallong batch) 
so that the yeast will be happy enough
to ferment in a reasonable amount of time?


I was thinking of maybe 1 lb honey and 1 lb extract per gallon
of water.  And using Champagne yeast.
Maybe 1lb honey and 1/2 lb extract per gallon will be
good enough?
Or three lbs honey and 1 lb extract for two gallons?

Comments?


Jscum


What happened to the mead digest--is no one posting to it.
I never saved the address, so I can't post to it until
it is sent to me again.



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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 13:45:53 -0500
From: polstra!larryba at uunet.UU.NET
Subject: Re: roller mill rollers

In HBD #1638 Mike Schrempp writes:
>A few weeks ago there was a posting from someone looking for a source of
>rollers for roller mills. I got a woodowrking catalog yesterday that has
>rollers that might work. These rollers look like conveyor belt rollers and
>are sold to be used to make outfeed supports for table saws and such. Here
>are the particulars:
>
I have lots of these rollers.  I got them from a local conveyor manufacture
for $5/ea (or may it was $3.50...) anyway they would be a BAD choice for
roller mills.  A: they are welded thinwall pipe and do not roll true enough
for any kind of milling.  B: they have internal bearings, so there is no
decent way to drive them.

Try "Bearings Inc" - you can get conveyor belt drive ends (e.g. shaft driven,
not bearing rolling) 4"dia, 10" wide for $44/each.  They are custom built
because you don't want a crown on your roller mill.  The one I had priced
out included built in hubs.  That is cheaper than the standard rollers with
two-piece hubs.  They also had a precision roller (machined), but I didn't 
bother pricing it out.  I figured I could true up the standard rollers if
needed.

The company that actually makes the rollers is Van Gorp, in Iowa.
1-800-Van-Gorp  You want to specify a "Finish Bore Drum Conveyor Pulley"
And you want it "straight faced" not "crowned".

Disclaimer: I have yet to make my roller mill...
- -- 
Larry Barello			uunet!polstra!larryba

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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 19:29 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: Refrigerators

Over the past year I have thrown away almost half of the
beer I've brewed, which is a bummer of such magnitude that
only a homebrewer can understand.  This has been due to the
high temperatures in our house, which typically range from
74-76 degrees F.  I can say from long, sad experience that
this imparts some highly undesirable flavors to beer,
(particularly high-gravity brews), and I have the bottles to
prove it.  We have no control over this heat, which comes
from the various steam pipes located throughout the floors
and walls.  Nor do we have a basement.

In one of those saint-like gestures sometimes made by
spouses of homebrewers, my wife has given me permission to
look for a refrigerator I could use for brewing. 
(Presumably this would be used in a conjunction with a
Hunter Airstat or similar device).

The problem--and the reason for her saintliness--is that our
house is quite small, and there is absolutely no
inconspicuous place to put a fridge.  We will have to live
with this thing constantly in our faces.  I am therefore
looking for the smallest possible (presumably dorm-type)
refrigerator that can hold a carboy with airlock.  I'll buy
new if necessary, as I am desperate.

Are any of you familiar with refrigerator models that are
currently available, or were available not long ago, that
fit this bill?

Please send responses and any other suggestions via E-mail
to PSEITZ at MCIMAIL.COM

Thanks!

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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 17:20:12 CST
From: bliss at csrd.uiuc.edu (Brian Bliss)
Subject: lactic acid / BAA

>   First let me say thanks to those who replied in HBD and via email.
>Experimentation with food grade acid is an interesting thought.  Does
>anyone see problems with adding small amounts to just a few bottles at
>bottling time?  Not that I'm nervous or anything, but I hate to take
>chances with 5 gallons at a time. 

I tried adding some 88% lactic acid from GW Kent (I double checked to
make sure I had the right source this time) to my dry stout a few weeks
ago.  It tasted great.  The only side effect was that I passed out
after 5 pints and woke up with every muscle in my body sore as hell...

>   Anyway, my friend Brent tried following Charlie's directions.  He
>placed a quantity (sorry, I'm unsure of amount) of pale malt in a cooler
>with 5 gallons of water at 130 F.  He covered the cooler and left it for
>19 hours.  The temperature had only dropped 20 degrees to 110 F, and
>the liquid was sweet, with no sign of sourness  (tartness?) and no
>noticible growth.  It may have stayed too hot, any other ideas about
>what went wrong?

The mash probably also stayed too hot.  It needs to get into the
80-100 F range.  Then it will take only a few hours to sour appreciably.

>   Also, I had the pleasure of sharing an Imperial Stoudt and 
>Taddy Porter (Samuel Smiths) yesterday, and they both seemed to have
>a bit of sourness, perhaps more noticable in the Imperial Stoudt.
>Perhaps I'm misinterpreting something in the flavor, but there does
>seem to be a much more distinct sour flavor than I've experienced in
>beers with much more dark grains.

The Imperial stout comes in a clear bottle and 50% of the time I
buy it, it is light-struck (skunky).  I don't drink much of the taddy
porter.

- ------------------------------

As far as Beer Across America goes:

>BadAssAstronomer writes:
> >     The Jan 93 selections were; Mass Bay Brewing Winter Warmer and
> >     Fisher Brewing Dark Ale.
>
>We tasted these yesterday at the brewclub meeting.  "Dark Ale" is a
>misnomer.  This stuff was sort of copper colored.  I'd say it's at the
>dark end of the pale ale spectrum.  The flavor was nothing to get
>excited about, either.
>
>The Mass Bay Winter Warmer, on the other hand was excellent.  Nicely
>spiced, but not overwhelming.  So many spiced beers have a sort of
>sour flavor, but this does not.  Our meeting was outside at a local
>park, and I'd say that the Winter Warmer lived up to its name.

I loved the Dark Ale.  The following is palate-subjective, but it
seemed to have just enough diacetyl without seeming stale to taste
good (not that a beer needs diacetyl, but this one used it to its
flavor advantage, as do Smith's and (possibly too much) Young's). 

On the subject of staleness, try comparing a bottle of 1992 Thomas
Hardy's to a 1991 version...

- ------------------------------

>Nick brought along an ersatz "Framboise," which he claimed had a Flanders
>brown base.  I'm practicing for the BJCP exam and was busily filling
>out scoresheets as the beers wandered by, and was oh-so-pleased to
>give his (Dock Street's) brew a 41.  Really, the only problem with
>it was a slight lack of body.  Otherwise it was nearly perfectly balanced,
>with an awesome raspberry nose, tenacious head, clear and tart fruit
>flavor, and an interesting chocolate-toasted malt finish.  One of
>those beers even your WIFE would love.  (Not my words, but we know
>the stereotypes.)

Dock street amber was by far my favorite beer that BAA distributed
in 1992.  Unfortunately, they ran out before I could order a third
case (burp!)

Assuming he doesn't object, I'd like to see a copy of the score sheet...
(whatever happened to the idea of judging BAA beers and then
discussing the results via e-mail?)

bb


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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 13:47 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Public service announcement

This is a public service announcement for Chicagoland beer lovers
or beer lovers who will happen to be in the Chicago area this
Saturday, Feb. 20th:

What:		BEER TASTING (11 U.S. Microbrewed ales and 3 homebrewed ales)

When:		Saturday, February 20th, from 2pm till 8pm

Where:		MAINSTREET DELI AND LIQUORS
		5425 South LaGrange Road
		Countryside, Illinois

		(3 minutes north of I-55 (Stevenson) on LaGrange Road)
		(15 minutes south of I-290 (Eisenhower) on Mannheim Road)
		(LaGrange and Mannheim are the same street -- Route 45)

Cost:		FREE!!!

The Beers:	Grant's IPA
		Grant's Scottish Ale
		Pike Place Pale Ale
		Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
		Pete's Wicked Ale
		Bell's Amber Ale
		Sierra Nevada Porter
		Bell's Porter
		Grant's Imperial Stout
		Bell's Kalamazoo Stout
		Sierra Nevada Stout

		Homebrewed Light Ale
		Homebrewed English Pale Ale
		Homebrewed Medium-dry Stout

More info:	Call 708-430-HOPS or 708-354-0355

Okay, so there's nothing very extraordinary on the list, but it's
free beer (the best kind) and it's an opportunity to compare a
number of respectable commercial beers, side-by-side.  Actually,
the purpose of this tasting is to get some Beck's or Sam Adams (boo)
drinkers to be more adventurous.  Mainstreet normally does wine
tastings on Saturdays from 2 to 8, but this is their first beer
tasting.  Hopefully the turnout will be good, the owners will he
impressed and will do this more often, maybe next time with 11 Belgian
Lambiks!

Disclaimer: I'm not denying anything.

See you there.
Al.

P.S. I brewed the three homebrews.

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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 15:43:25 PST
From: mrozek at gandalf.etdesg.TRW.COM (Eric M. Mrozek)
Subject: re:  recipe request (maple)

Jon,  in answer to your request:

Mark and I brewed the maple ale on Labor Day so I don't recall the details of
the recipe.  I'll pull out my logbook when I get home tonight and give you 
the actual recipe tomorrow. 

If I remember right, we used half a quart of dark amber maple syrup.  The end
result was a pretty dry beer with a thin body.  I really liked it even though
it didn't turn out like we intended (a maple flavored PALE ALE).  The maple 
flavor was definitely there, but you can bend your brain trying to imagine what
maple syrup tastes like without the sugur.  

I think the maple sugur ferments out almost completely, and even seems to 
increase the overall attenuation.  The recipe was based on other pale ales 
we had done (which had real pale ale gravities and body).  The next
maple ale we do will have more crystal malt and maybe some carapils (going for 
more body).  Does anyone have any recommendations?

As for the Cat's Meow recipies, I have a hard copy and I can get it via FTP 
(read the daily HBD header for more info) but maybe someone who already has 
an electonic copy can volunteer to cut out the relevant recipies and E-mail 
them to you (southard at biology.UCSC.EDU).

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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 20:47:02 -0500
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley)
Subject: Irish red ale recipe idea

In #1079, Al (korz at iepubj.att.com) writes:

>Personally, I don't think Irish Red is a real style -- I think it's a
>recently created idea -- a product of the marketing director of a large
>industrial mega-brewer.  Perhaps I'm wrong, but yesterday I heard a

I agree, that the word `Red' sounds unauthentic and that the lager
Coors makes likely bears little resemblance to anything that may have
been brewed in Ireland in years gone by.

That said Irish Red _ALE_ (yes ALE) seems to be an emerging American
style, based on recent offerings at a variety of microbreweries.
Ironically, Guy McDonnell mentioned one in the article immediately
below AL's post!  I posted here in January about the Chicago Brewing
Company's Legacy Irish Ale.  I find it a very tasty brew.  It is both
darker and more bitter than Killians'.  It's brewed in Chicago, Al;
you must have tried it.  The blurb on the bottle says Irish immigrant
brewers brewed in this style in 19th century Chicago.  It's certainly a
plausible tale.

>To create something resembling Killian's, I suggest brewing a lightly-
>hopped (perhaps 15-20 IBU) pale ale but add 1 ounce of Roasted Unmalted
>Barley, just for color.

I can't imagine too many people really want to duplicate Killian's
when they can brew somthing with more character.  Here's my suggestion,
based on my memory of Legacy Red Ale and my experience using smallish
amounts of more hightly roasted malts in pale ales:

 pale ale malt or pale malt extract for OG of about 1050
   (for extract recipes with attenuative yeast, include 1 # crystal,
    for all-grain with attenuative yeast, mash at a warmer temperature)
 2 ounces roasted barley (up to 3 if no crystal is used)
 Bittering hops for 30 IBU (CBS uses Chinook)
 Fuggles or Willamette to finish (CBS uses Willamette)
 Wyeast Irish yeast or a reliable dried yeast

Cheers,

Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: 17 Feb 93 18:38:44 U
From: "Richard Withers" <richard_withers at macmail.conductus.com>
Subject: Adams Family Boston Brewery

                       Subject:                               Time:6:24 PM
  OFFICE MEMO          Adams Family Boston Brewery            Date:2/17/93
Chuck Cox had a great suggestion for paying retribution to Jim Koch's (Sam
Adams) bad legal habits.  John Adams thought that, being born an Adams, he
could not be denied use of the name.  He's wrong, unless the law has changed in
the14 years since I visited the Bully Hill Winery on the Finger Lakes of New
York.
  During the tour of Bully Hill, I noticed that there were many paintings in
the tasting room signed by an artist named Walter S. ____; that is, the last
name was obliterated.  The same obliterated name was seen on various signs
around the winery giving inspiration to the workers about quality control and
the like.  I asked about this and was told that the owner was named Walter S.
Taylor, and he was a descendant of the founder of Taylor Wines.  Taylor Wines
had been acquired by Coca-Cola (Koch? could it be??) (or was it Pepsico?), and
they had obtained an injunction prohibiting Walter Taylor from using the Taylor
name in the marketing of Bully Hill wines.  So... Walter complied with the
order to the absurd limit.
  Bully Hill also produced bumper stickers stating:  "Drink Bully Hill wines --
the UN-Taylor"  (remember the 7-Up Un-cola campaign?)
  Fight back!
 - Richard Withers
withers at conductus.com



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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1993 22:13 EST
From: STBLEZA at grove.iup.edu
Subject: Mead and Extract Brewing...

Greetings all...

In a recent HBD, Mark Cronenweth <CRONEN at vms.cis.pitt.edu> writes:

> I've also heard rumors of a MEAD DIGEST out there somewhere.  If anybody has
> addresses for any online MEAD info., recipes, etc. please post me at:

Would any kind soul with any mead information also please E-mail me with the
info... It would be greatly appreciated.

Also, I've reads some messages talking about 'extract' brewing.  I'm afraid that
I'm not familar with this process.  I learned brewing from an organization
called the SCA (Society for Creative Anacronism), a medieval re-creationist
group.  Hence, I've only learned techniques in use before 1550 AD, and have
missed this (and other) techniques.  Would some kind soul please be so
generous as to give a brief explanation of this artform?  Thanx in advance.

+*****************************************+************************************+
|"There are no choices between good and   |The Dragon of                       |
|evil.  All choices are between the       |    Summer Sun and	               |
|lesser of two evils, or the greater of   |           Winter Moon	       |
|two goods."                              |(AKA J. Hunter Heinlen)             |
|   -The Dragon of Shadow Walking and     |(Bitnet:STBLEZA at IUP)                |
|    Night Stalking -- a good friend  RIP |(Internet:STBLEZA at GROVE.IUP.EDU)    |
+=========================================+====================================+

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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 09:26:43 EST
From: mlobo at sentry.foxboro.com (Michael T. Lobo)
Subject: Rolling Rocks #33

I saw this question posted a few weeks ago, and never saw a response -
does anyone know what the 33 on the Rolling Rock label REALLY stands for?

thanks,

Michael T. Lobo   508 549 2487
Foxboro Co.
mlobo at foxboro.com  "I Love beer, beer loves me; when I drink too much, 
my beer speaks for me" -Monty

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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 93 23:20:47 EST
From: joseph at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Subject: The Taste of Dextrose


How many of you out there have tasted the corn dextrose that comes
in 50-lb bags?

Now, pure glucose is mildly sweet, and essentially tasteless otherwise.
But this stuff tastes like, well, wallpaper paste.  When I added 3
grams to a glass of water the taste was still distinct, though probably
threshold at best in beer.

Is it ALL like this?

Another argument for using sucrose or some other seriously refined
sugar for priming.  Or, <sigh>, malt extract.

================O Fortuna, velut Luna, statu variabilis================
uunet!joebloe!joseph   (609) 273-8200 day   joseph%joebloe at uunet.uu.net
2102 Ryan's Run East        Rt 38 & 41             Maple Shade NJ 08052
Copyright 1993 by Joseph N. Hall.   Permission granted to copy and
redistribute freely over USENET and by email.  Commercial use prohibited.

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Date: Wed, 17 Feb 1993 18:58:06 -0500
From: Chris.Kagy at p882.f70.n109.z1.fidonet.org (Chris Kagy)
Subject: Semi-beginner question

On the heels of Chuck's survey, I've got a semi-beginner question.  Would adding
rolled oats to a brew (a porter in this case) have any desireable effect if it
were used like other adjunct grains?  In other words, if I add a half pound of
rolled oats to 2 gal of water, bring it to a boil and remove the oats would
there be any useful result?  Unfortunately, I'm not set up to mash, hence my
question...  Thanks for any answers!

 -kegster
 

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Date:         Thu, 18 Feb 93 10:27:52 +0200
From: Nir Navot <LCNAVOT at WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      Wild Yeasts

I have been thinking about the problem of contamination of yeast cultures by
wild yeasts and would like to ask a couple of questions.
1. If you had the possibility to test for wild yeast contamination, say with a
   kit of some sort, would it be still worthwhile if you had no means to get
   rid of those nasties (other then dumping the contaminated stock)?
2. How often does the problem occur in your homebrewing enterprise?

Nir Navot
Molecular Biologist
Novice Home Brewer

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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 11:27:49 GMT
From: des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: Re: Kicking that horse

Forwarded message:
>From des Thu Feb 18 11:09:08 1993
Subject: Re: Kicking that horse
To: homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.com
Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 11:09:08 GMT
X-Mailer: ELM [version 06.01.01.00 (2.3 PL11)]

Just a few data points on Steve Tollefsrud's post, based on experience. 
My background is 10 years brewing extract kits, now two years all-grain.

I agree with Steve that extract brewing can keep a brewer just as occupied 
juggling with ingredients. Extract can beat all-grain in competitions. 
It's easier, quicker and requires less kit. Why do I prefer all-grain? 
Because all-grain consistently produces better beers for me than extract.
Maybe I'm such a useless brewer I can't get a good beer out of extract.

> There has been a lot of blatant arrogance expressed by some
> all-grain brewers,

I think it was only Jack, who admits he sometimes puts his foot in his 
mouth. Best thing is to count ten and forget it. Mail direct if you must.

> 
> Malt is only one contributor to what makes a good beer, and whether
> that one ingredient is extracted from the grain in your kitchen 
> or at a factory is less significant to the quality of the final
> product than what is contributed by ... [hops, water yeast etc]

Disagree totally here. Factory extract in my experience is markedly 
inferior to wort extracted at home or brewery. Probably due to the 
processing required to eliminate the water. Far from being less 
significant, I consider it to be the _most_ significant factor in poorer 
flavour compared to all-grain. Only differences in hop rates come near to 
affecting taste as much. This is why it is essential to use the very best 
quality extract if you want to beat all-grain brews in competitions.

> One of the most common reasons given by all-grain advocates for
> making the plunge is for greater control over what goes into
> the beer.

It's not my reason, and I doubt it is a common reason. Greater scope for 
experimenting maybe, and even that's debatable. As Steve says, all you do 
is throw more variables in the pot. I use all-grain, as said before, 
because it tastes _far_ better. That's the main reason I switched and the 
only reason I prefer it. Ah! that taste!

> Steve Tollefsrud
> Valbonne, France
> 
> e-mail: steve_T at fleurie.compass.fr

Desmond Mottram
des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com


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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 11:30 GMT
From: "John Robinson, King's College London" <UDAA002 at OAK.CC.KCL.AC.UK>
Subject: RE: Kicking Dead Horse for Better Extraction

steve_T%fleurie at champigny (Steven Tollefsrud) writes:

> There has been a lot of blatant arrogance expressed by some
> all-grain brewers, some implying that extract brewers are
> not in the same league, likening extract brewing to mindless
> just-add-water cake-mixing, or, even more ridiculous, that
> extract is analogous to instant coffee! This has left the
> extract brewer feeling ridiculed in a forum intended to be
> shared and enjoyed by all home-brewers.

Whilst the "grain vs. extract" argument can be taken too far, I must
admit I agree with the instant coffee analogy.  After all, both
instant coffee and malt extract are concentrated forms of the original
substance. 

I brewed with extract for about 5 years before trying my first
all-grain brew, and since then I haven't looked back. I could say the
same about using instant and ground coffee, and also about
from-concentrate vs. freshly-squeezed orange juice.  In all three
cases, IMHO, the concentrated product lacks the clean, "zesty" quality
of the original.  The basic flavour is present, and about right, but it
seems somehow to be dulled.  I've an idea that this difference is
rather more important than any _additional_ flavours that may be
introduced by the concentrating process. 

OK, malt [extract] is only one ingredient, and not the major one for
flavouring purposes, but good fresh malt _does_ make a big
contribution to the taste.  I've drunk some fine beers made from
extract - and some dreadful all-grain brews.  But my own experience
with homebrew is that it's been well worth the change, if only to hear
from fellow imbibers the comment "this doesn't taste like homebrew,
it's just like <some commercial real ale>".

John
JANET: J.Robinson at uk.ac.kcl.cc.oak

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Date: 18 Feb 93 07:18:00 EST
From: "PAUL EDWARDS" <8260PE at indy.navy.mil>
Subject: chocolate porter

At the request of a few people, here's my chocolate porter recipe
that Sandy was bragging on a fwew issues back (blush):


3 lbs laaglander light dry malt
3 lbs laaglander amber dry malt
1/4 lb black patent malt
1/2 lb chocolate malt
2 1/4 lbs xtal malt (i had 32 deg lovibond laying around; 40 deg would be ok)
1/2 lb cara-pils
24 tablespoons cocoa powder

1 oz Northern Brewer hops (6.8% alpha), boiled 1 hour
1 oz Willamette (alpha not recorded) at finish of boil

Yeast was Whitbread dry ale yeast in a 1 qt starter

Steeped cracked grains in grain bag in 5 qts 160 deg F water.  Strained.
Brought water volume to 6 gallons, added dry malt, boiled one hour.
Chilled with immersion chiller, racked to primary, pitched yeast starter.

OG 1064  FG not recorded.  Bottled with 3/4 cup corn sugar to prime.

The beer was great tasting from the beginning, but after a month in the
bottle, the hop bitterness had diminished, allowing the chocolate
bitterness to come thru.  The beer was very rich and thick with a creamy
tan head.

My wife is a confirmed chocoholic (and porter lover), and is bugging
me to brew another batch.

Cheers!

- -- Paul


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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 1993 07:56:11 -0500
From: mgx at ornl.gov (Michael D. Galloway)
Subject: Answers

In HBD #1080 Mark had a few questions:

[snip]

>Questions at this point:
>     1.) Must the transfer to the secondary be done immediately, or
>is there a safe window of a day or two?  Obviously the transfer
>doesn't have to be done at all, but ... I am trying to make a
>better brew.
>     2.) How important is it not to aerate the wort during the
>transfer from primary to secondary.
>     3.) By leaving behind the sediment, won't there be a
>tremendous (significant) amount of viable yeast left behind?  My
>observations of the fermentation process show that the CO2 rises
>from the precipitate at the bottom of the carboy, not from the
>material in suspension.
>

Answers:
        1.  No, remember there are few hard and fast rules when it comes to 
             making homebrew.  My typical fermentation schedule is this:
             Brew and get the primary going on Saturday ... active fermentation
             by Sunday.  Then I normally rack (transfer) to the secondary the 
             next Saturday.  Then I bottle the following Saturday.  So ....
7 days
             in the primary and 7 days in the secondary.  Racking to the 
             secondary gets the beer off the trub and hops and dead yeast and
             appears to allow much more yeast to flocculate ... this means
             clearer beer in the bottle with much less sediment in the bottle.

        2.  It is important that you minimize the aeration at this stage.  The
             dissolved O2 from aeration will lead to premature staling of 
             your beer.  All you need to do is get the secondary end of the 
             racking tube (I use 3/8 tubing) under the surface of the beer as
             soon as possible.

        3.  Yes, there will be a lot of 'good' yeast left behind but you will 
             also leave behind a lot of dead yeast, trub (break material) and
             spent hop material.  Don't worry, there is plenty of yeast in 
             suspension that will carry over into the secondary. 



>     Now, all my primings to this point have been by adding a
>measured amount of corn sugar to each bottle, then filling the
>bottle, capping, conditioning ... enjoying (er, sort of).  Hey,
>what can I say, I followed the directions that came with the
>extract, and those supplied with the microbrewery kit ... how was
>I to know.  Beat me, whip me, make me write bad checks!  I'm trying
>to reform myself.
>     If I understand the literature, about 3/4 cup of sugar/sugar
>equivalent should be boiled in water or sterile wort, then added to
>the contents of the secondary, cooled to the temperature of the
>remaining 5 gal liquid (is it still called wort at this stage?),
>bottled and conditioned as usual.
>
>     It would seem that if I add anything to the remianing 5 gal
>liquid in the secondary, and mix, all the precipitate will go back
>into suspension and consequently be bottled.  If I don't mix, what
>will be bottled will not be consistantly primed.  I was under the
>impression that one of the advantages of doing a two-stage
>fermentation was to eliminate as much particulate from the bottled
>product as possible.
>
>     Questions:
>     1.) What am I missing here?  Do I accept putting all the
>precipitate back into suspension and into the bottles, or,
>     2.) Is there a method of mixing the priming sugar/equivalent
>without disturbing the junk in the secondary?
>     3.) Noting that the 3/4 cup is not carved in stein, if I
>substitute dry malt extract for corn sugar, do I use the same 3/4
>cup?  What if I substitute liquid extract?
>     4.) Lastly, if I use (for conversation sake) a 3 pound can of
>a hopped liquid extract, and want to use dry malt extract (instead
>of a second un-hopped can of liquid or [gasp!] sugar) to  finish
>off the ingredient list, what would be a reasonable amount of DME
>be to use as a baseline starting point for future experimentation?
>
>
Answers:
        First, once the fermentation is over, its beer, carbonated or not.
        1.  The normal priming method is this:  boil and cool 3/4 cup 
             corn sugar (or 1 to 1 1/4 cup dried malt extract, I never use 
             liquid extract, too hard to measure at this level) in 1 cup 
             water.  Place this sugar solution in the bottom of a clean and 
             sanitized 5 gal carboy (or what ever you use for a bottling 
             container) and rack the beer from your secondary onto this
             sugar solution, again, with as little aeration as possible.
             The sugar solution will go into solution with the beer with 
             no difficulty.  Bottle and enjoy a week or two later.

        2.  See 1

        3.  See 1

        4.  First, I would reccomend that you use unhopped extract (it 
             is difficult to predict the hopping rate in extracts) and hop
             the wort yourself.  This way you get the hop rate YOU like 
             and you get to use the variety of hops that are pleasing to 
             YOU.  The amount of DME (dried malt ecxtract?) that you 
             would need depends on the kind of beer that you want to 
             make.  For my 'normal' ales I like an OG of around 1.045,
             and I usually end up using 6-7 lbs of extracts (I like the 
             Northwestern extracts) total.  


     GUIDANCE, PLEASE
>
>     Mark
>

Mark, hope this helps some.  Keep at it!

Michael D. Galloway
mgx at ornl.gov

Living in the WasteLand


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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 09:43:30 EST
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Aeration

I think this was in the gadgets issue of Zymurgy (maybe it was even
posted here months ago), but it's a neat idea that bears repeating.
It's not original to me, anyway.

I'm one of those who likes to rack (siphon) from the boiling pot into
my primary fermenter (maybe because it's hard to pour into the neck of
a carboy from a big pot).  I made a neat gadget that automagically
aerates the (cooled!) wort as it's siphoning.  I took some 3/8 OD copper
tubing (left over from building wort chiller, sparging manifold, etc.)
and cut a piece just slightly taller than the inside height of my
carboy.  A couple of inches down from the top (far enough down so it's
inside the neck of the carboy) I drilled four 1/16" holes.  I filed
notches in the bottom with a triangular file (this prevents it from
sitting flat on the bottom of the carboy and stopping the flow).  I
then insert this into the end of my racking tube, put it in the
carboy, and siphon.  The Bernoulli effect (knew that physics class
would come in handy some day) sucks air in through the holes, and it
gets well mixed with the wort.  Makes a nice head of bubbles in the
carboy, too.

Assuming you've got some copper tubing lying around, it's free and
easy.  Even if you don't, a couple of feet of tubing will cost you
maybe a buck?

=Spencer W. Thomas 		|  Info Tech and Networking, B1911 CFOB, 0704
   "Genome Informatician"	|  Univ of Michigan, Ann Arbor, MI 48109
Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu	|  313-764-8065, FAX 313-764-4133

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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 8:29:54 CST
From: gdmcconn at mspe5.b11.ingr.com (Guy McConnell)
Subject: Birmingham Brewing Tour (part III)

    Last we were taken into the cold storage room filled with kegs, cases of
bottled beer, and the unmistakable aroma of hops.  I thought I'd died and gone
to heaven.  John then took us back to the front of the brewery (a long walk of
perhaps 100 feet), pointed out some cups and two taps and said "help 
yourselves".  They had the golden ale and gold lager on tap.  There was no red
ale on tap because they didn't have any in kegs at the time.  I'll have to
recant my previous opinion of the golden ale.  I have had it in bottles here
in Huntsville and said that it was "good but nothing special".  After trying
it fresh at the brewery, I'll have to say that it is quite good.  It had a
wonderful hop aroma and flavor, balanced by good malt taste and topped off with
a creamy head.  The lager was very smooth and quite good as well.  John likened
it more to a Dortmunder style than a pils.  Being an ale man, I can't comment
on that comparison.

    I asked if he would tell me what was in the red ale, without giving away 
the farm of course.  He said they use 2-row, Munich, Caramel, and a "small
amount" of Chocolate malts in the brew.  The chocolate is there primarily to
add texture and complexity rather than color as that is derived from the
caramel malt.  Clusters are used for bittering with Fuggles and Cascades used
for flavor and aroma.

    When asked about brewing other types of beer he said he'd love to do a 
stout or a porter but they were afraid that it wouldn't sell here.  They do 
plan to brew a Christmas Ale of some sort this year and are, as yet, uncertain
as to whether it would be available only in Birmingham or in all markets.  
Their beer is currently available throughout Alabama in the "major" cities 
such as Birmingham, Huntsville, Decatur, Mobile, Montgomery, etc.  He wasn't 
sure how much of it made it into "outlying areas" as they deal only with 
distributors.  It is also available in some parts of Georgia and they are soon
going to have it in the Florida panhandle.

    Red Mountain Red will be in next month's Beer Across America shipment and
John was quite honored by that as they are such a new brewery.  He showed us
the last of 3200 cases on their way to the BAA people.

    They are migrating to twist-top bottles since the ones they use are not
returnable anyway.  This had an unexpected benefit to us as he gave us a half
case of the red ale and a half case of the golden ale to split from their trial
bottling runs.  That fresh red ale is something else indeed!

    John is justifiably proud of the brewery.  He says that, while it is quite
small in comparison to most others, "there are no finer micros anywhere, all
of the equipment is first-rate".

    Quite an enjoyable tour, particularly since I'd never seen the inside of
a brewery before.  John said that he is happy to give tours of virtually any
size, preferring those in the range of 1 - 4 people.  Larger tours are also
welcome but are not as "personal".  Just call to make sure he will be in and 
will have the time to show you around.  The address and phone number:

		Birmingham Brewing Company
		3118 3rd Avenue South
		Birmingham, AL. 35233
		(205)326-6677

Enjoy and here's to the return of the brewing industry to Alabama!
- -- 
Guy McConnell  gdmcconn at mspe5.b11.ingr.com
       "All I need is a pint a day"

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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 09:26:46 EST
From: mattd at software.pulse.com (Matt Downs)
Subject: Found Beer

All Homebrewers:

Recently, I found a raspberry wheat beer in a fermenter that I forgot about. 
Please no flames--I know "stupid"!  Any way, it is about 7 months old and the
air lock appears to still be intact.  What I was wondering is if any one has 
had an experience like this and what did they do?  Did you bottle it any way? 
Did it turn out ok?  How might have using fruit changed this?

Any answers would be appreciated, but flames would not!  There seems to have 
been an extradonary number of flames for people who have valid questions to 
this group, we as a group should be more understanding and unless we have 
constructive answer, we should refrain from wasteing bandwidth in meaningless
and unwanted expressions of our own inadequatcies (spelling is probably 
incorrect).

Thanks.

Matt

 ____________________________________________________________________________
| Matthew Downs			| "To error is human, to forgive devine"     |
| Pulse Communications, Inc.	|					     |	
| 2900 Towerview Road		| I have admitted my stupidity, I promise it |
| Herndon, VA 22071		| will not happen again!		     |
 ----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Thu, 18 Feb 93 10:14:00 EST
From: DJH0 at NIOSR1.EM.CDC.GOV
Subject: is it too late for the secondary?

Greetings-
    I tried a partial mash of 1/2 lb. chocolate malt (crushed with a 
mortar and pestle) with a lager extract, and lacking a wort chiller, poured 
the hot wort and the hot break (out of ignorance) through a strainer and 
into a 5 gal. carboy with 3 gal. of water.  I let the cold water in the 
carboy cool the wort and pitched my yeast soon afterward.  (My milling 
"technique" had produced some powdery grains as well as granular grain 
fragments) .  The latest posts in the HBD have given me some concern about my 
crude methods.  Question- Has all the harm been done?  Should I bother 
racking to a secondary ASAP to get the wort away from the hot/cold break 
which formed a 1 inch layer on the bottom of my carboy?  The yeast is just 
now producing CO2 (very slowly) after 2 days of no activity at 65-70^F.  
Not worrying- just learning.

djh0 at niosr1.em.cdc.gov
 
  







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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1081, 02/19/93