FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Ph meters, Hydrometers ("Daniel F McConnell")
  Printing labels on a laser printer ("Spencer W. Thomas")
  The Unfermentables ("I'm a jelly doughnut.  I'm a jelly doughnut")
  pH Meter Temperature Compensation (Timothy J. Dalton)
  Chill haze help, copper (Ulick Stafford)
  Hops in Ohio (WESTEMEIER)
  Decoction Mash Questions (Chris Cook)
  Anchor Foam ("Rad Equipment")
  Celis White...Answer and Question (aderr)
  SG temperature correction ("Stephen Hansen")
  Answers about bottle labels (Andy Rowan)
  Cat's Meow Evaluation (Justin Broughton)
  Dorky Topics (Jack Schmidling)
  pH (Phil Hultin)
  Re: fermenter geometry (Quasimodo The Hunchback)
  Proposed North Bay Bike Ride & Pub Crawl (Quasimodo The Hunchback)
  Yeast Starter Temperature (SynCAccT)
  HB Competition (thomas ciccateri)
  Fix times two (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: galvanized screen & Zinc (cush)
  Mashout (Jack Schmidling)
  Mashout (Jack Schmidling)
  Red Star (Jack Schmidling)
  gelatin fining (Kelly Jones)
  Attemperation/Repitch (Joe Rolfe)
  Sugared Extracts (kstiles)
  Labels:  Affixing & Removing (James Thompson)
  re: idophor, rinse/reuse  (R.) Cavasin" <cav at bnr.ca>
  Wyeast reuse/stretching  (R.) Cavasin" <cav at bnr.ca>
  Brewing on Line (Carlo Fusco)
  Homebrewers 'round the world (Jack St.Clair at fmccm6)


Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmi.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Archives are available via anonymous ftp from sierra.stanford.edu.
  (Those without ftp access may retrieve files via mail from
  listserv at sierra.stanford.edu. Send HELP as the body of a
  message to that address to receive listserver instructions.)
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



		IMPORTANT NEWS -- PLEASE READ
		-----------------------------

There will be nobody reading mail sent to homebrew-request during the
period Feb 8 through approx. Feb 28. This means that any requests for
changes or cancellations will not be handled until the end of the month.
Subscription requests will continue to be handled automatically, and the
digest will continue to be sent automatically, barring any computing
device catastrophes. So if you send a message here and get no immediate
reply, or if the digest stops suddenly, please do not panic. Just be
patient.

ps. and please try to behave yourselves while I'm gone ;-)



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 24 Feb 1993 09:08:30 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel.F.McConnell at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Ph meters, Hydrometers

                       Subject:                               Time:9:02 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Ph meters, Hydrometers                 Date:2/24/93
>;on the subj of pH meters - i recently got one from HANNA (shucks found out
>;it is made in italy :0). anyway does anyone have one of these?  do you
>;notice a fluctuation between hot and cold temps of the same sample?  i am not
>;sure if mine is defective or what,  pH varies by .5 (even after letting it
sit
>;in the non-ambient temp sample for 1-2 mins)....the probe was calibrated with
>;the 7 and 4 solutions minutes before....and soaked in a conditioning solution
>;for 30 mins as recomended.... does any one have the temp diffs for pH?

>pH, much like specific gravity, is dependent on temperature.  I would think 
>there would be a temperature correction table that came with your meter.

The Hanna does not come with a calibration table, however you can get a
accurate reading by measuring the wort pH at the SAME temperature as the
electrode was calibrated.  You must calibrate  fairly often (at least each
day), so if you calibrate at 60F and cool wort to 60F you should be ok.  Even
if you are off by 0.5 unit you are still far more accurate than pH papers
INMH(color blind)O.  I love mine.  

The operational definition of pH is: pH=pH(s)+E/k. Where pH(s) is the pH of a
known standard, E is the emf of the cell, k=2.302RT/F  where R is the gas
constant, **T is temperature** and F is the value of the Faraday.  As you can
see, since temperature is a variable, the measure of pH is definitely
temperature dependant.  From Handbook of Chem/Phys.

[end of chemistry digression]  

On the hydrometer topic, I recently discovered (when brewing with a friend who
uses his religiously) that mine is horribly and uselessly inaccurate, so I have
gone back to not using the thing.  The old OG estimates of STRONG, NORMAL and
WEAK always worked for me before, but occasionally I'd like to check my
efficiency.  Thermometers can be very different from one to another and so can
hydrometers.  Short of purchasing a refractometer are there any mail order
shops that sell a reasonably priced ($15-20 ...??) CALIBRATED hydrometer?

Thanks,   DanMcC
*As long as Keith (Richards) is still alive, I can have another beer. *   




Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 09:24:43 EST
From: "Spencer W. Thomas" <Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu>
Subject: Printing labels on a laser printer

Jeff J. Miller writes:
 > I located some 3/4" round labels that are designed for use on
 > a laser printer; unfortunatly they seemed EXTREMELY expensive
 > at $15 a box but I don't recall how many labels were in a box.

Well, let's see.  If they're packed tightly on the page, you've got 
maybe 150 on a page.  If the box has 50 pages, then there would be
7500 of them in the box.  So they're .2 cents each.  Not really
expensive, except up front.  Even if there were only 10 pages, they'd
still be 1c each.  That's less than you pay for bottle caps.

=S

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 1993 09:50:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "I'm a jelly doughnut. I'm a jelly doughnut" <cygnus at unh.edu>
Subject: The Unfermentables

Hi, I was wondering what grains have significant amounts of
unfermentables etc.... i.e.

Barley (malted)
Wheat  (malted)
Rice syrup solids
and more...

I like my beers to have a heavy malty taste.. just like when you put
loads of 'malted milk' in your milkshake... I beleive that is a barley
malt.

Question remains what type of unfermentables are we talking about here?

right now I have a coffee beer brewing, and I want that
earthy malty flavour... so I figured I'd post out of curiosity to see
what the HBD could come up with for all to know :)

thanks,
 -chris (dcm2 at kepler.unh.edu)

                            


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 10:13:21 -0500
From: Timothy J. Dalton <dalton at mtl.mit.edu>
Subject: pH Meter Temperature Compensation

To answer some ongoing problems with pH meters and 
temperature dependence:

pH measurements ARE temperature dependent.
Some pH meters come with built in temperature compensation
(a separate temp. probe is used in this case) and some
pH meters allow for manual compensation.

With pH meters, we use the Nernst Equation 

E = Ex + 2.3*R*Tk/n*F * log(ai)

Plugging in all the constants,

we get E = Ex - 1.98*Tk*pH

Ex is a constantant depending on your reference electrode and
E is the potential measured by the pH electrode.

As you can see, a change in Tk (Temperature, in Kelvin)
Will change the slope of your E/pH curve.

Important notes, pH will always read 7.0 at 0 mV output
(Temp. compensation is not important near pH 7)

At pH 3 or 11, a temp difference of 15C leads to a pH difference 
of 0.2

pH error can be approximated as  0.03 pH error/pH unit/10C

Reference:  pH and Conductivity, Omega, Vol 26, pp. A-3 to A-5

OHBN (Obligatory HomeBrew Note) : The Irish Red Ale for
St. Patty's day is almost ready.

- ----
Timothy J. Dalton                                   tjdalton at mit.edu
MIT, Dept. of Chemical Engineering, Materials Etching Technology Lab


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 10:02:21 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at bernini.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Chill haze help, copper

When I chill my lagers I get a chill haze, and with this at the back of my mind
I read George Fix's Brewing Science book and he wrote of phenol-protein
interactions that cause chill haze.  There seemed to be 3 solutions 1) remove
proteins with Irish moss or gelatin, 2) remove the tannins with polyclar,
or 3) lager for 5-7 week at 0C. I would love to use the latter method, but
until I get a chest freezer it is impractical.  Other things that help are
sparging less, and boiling for the right time.

My question is how do people use polyclar?  I don't really want to, but
it seems like a better option than gelatin or Irish moss that may remove
head proteins.  Should I add it to the beer when I rack to lager and
lager with it there, or would it be sufficient to add it when I chill the
wort, let that sit at 0C till fairly clear and then rack onto the yeast.
Is this last idea ridiculous?

Re.  Copper about which Mark Elliot asks.  The reason are mainly traditional.
Copper is a metal that has been known forever nearly.  At beer making 
pH's it doesn't corrode, and the main advantage is that it has the second
highest heat transfer coefficient of all metals.  This was more important 
when fire brewing was the only heating method.  Since this method is still
used by us homebrewers, I would like nothing better than a big copper jam pot.
But I have not seen any for sale.  

______________________________________________________________________________ 
'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at bach.helios.nd.edu   

P.S.  I am sorry that many of you were offended by my continuation of the
'dead horse' thread and I apologise for not restiricting criticism to email.
But I am not the only one commiting that sin and I think it is also 
time for those of you who 
dispair of this theme to stop posting your sanctimonius criticisms about how
hbd is going to hell in a handbasket because of the odd accrimonius post.  I am
sure I am not alone in thinking that such piety is more nauseating than 
the occasaional flame. Also, I think there was a criticism of rec.crafts.\
brewing.  It is my experience that r.c.b is usually more civil than hbd.
I think that hbd snobs are more common than *6&-#$% at * snobs.

Return to table of contents


Date: 23 Feb 1993 19:44:13 -0500 (EST)
From: WESTEMEIER at delphi.com
Subject: Hops in Ohio

Garland Burton asks if you can grow decent hops in Ohio.

Answer:  YES!
You can definitely grow decent hops in Ohio.
I've been growing them for a couple of years in Cincinnati, and I have
a friend in Dayton who has been growing them for over 5 years.
Very successfully, I might add!
Cascades do best in this area, but try Hallertauer as well (Hersbrucker).
Order the rhizomes from a good source like Freshops in Oregon, and plant
them as soon as the danger of frost is over.
You won't have any way of knowing exactly what the alpha acid percentage
is, but you can guess, based on the average for the variety.  You can
also do what I do, which is ignore the issue and just use them for
dry hopping.  Works great!
Lots of sun seems to be the most critical factor.

- -- Ed

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 11:04:55 -0500
From: cook at uars.DNET.NASA.GOV (Chris Cook)
Subject: Decoction Mash Questions

In HBD 1083, while talking about starch conversion during infusion mashing,
Drew asked (about drawing off some of the mash for reheating):

>  3) The method used above to reheat the mash seems similar to decoction
>     mashing.  With regards to decoction mashing:
>     a) is it usual to drain and boil just liquid, or liquid and grain?
>     b) doesn't this process denature the enzymes needed for conversion?
>     c) is there some formula for how much of the liquid or liquid and
>        grain to reboil to make a desired temperature change?

Good questions.  Like Drew, I'm looking to use some simple use of a decoction
in infusion mashing, either to raise the temperature of the infusion, for a
rudimentary step mash or for a mash-out.  Plus, I'd like to try full
decoction mashing, just to see for myself.

A few weeks ago I asked what Noonan meant in his reference to removing
"...the thickest third..." of the mash.  There were several answers posted,
but they reinforced my impression that people were interpreting Noonan's
directions in different ways.

One person said that the thickest part was at the bottom of the mash-tun
after letting the grains settle.  Another said that 'thickest part'
description was misleading, referring to a decoction consisting mostly of
grains.  He recommended that the mash be gently stirred before scooping off
the decoction.

Logically, I can believe that the mash will settle into heavier and lighter
layers, but we're talking about pretty uniformly-sized grains.  Is it
important to scoop from the bottom, or is it more that we should avoid using
the top layer.  Do the husks migrate to the surface or some such?

How much liquid should be drawn off with the decoction?  I got three general
answers in the Digest:

1)    With a small pot, scoop up a bunch of grain and pour off the liquid
      until the grains are barely covered, something like a stew.
2)    With a small pot, scoop a bunch of grain against the side wall of the
      mash-tun and slide the pot up the wall, letting most of the liquid
      drain back.  It wasn't clear how much liquid should remain in the pot,
      but the writer implied that only a little liquid should be in the
      decoction.
3)    Scoop the decoction with a sieve or colander.  I assume this leaves
      almost no liquid in the decoction.  Barley stir-fry?

Several people emphasized the problems with grain sticking in the pot while
heating the decoction.  I don't know whether the drier decoctions were
significantly worse, but it seems they should be.

Book references and logic are only good to a point.  Anybody have experience
using a decoction to heat up a cool infusion mash, for a simple step mash,
or for a mash-out?  How large are the decoctions, how much liquid should be
left in the decoction, and how bad is the sticking?

Chris Cook
February 24, 1993
cook at uars.dnet.nasa.gov

Return to table of contents


Date: 24 Feb 93 08:34:36 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
Subject: Anchor Foam

Subject:  Anchor Foam                           Time:8:32 AM     Date:2/24/93
Bob Jones asks about the flat fermenters at Anchor and foam activity.

Now that you ask, I can't say that I have ever noticed those vats without a
head on them except when they are being filled.

RW...

Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61)
UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / 474-8126


Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 11:40:03 -0500
From: aderr at BBN.COM
Subject: Celis White...Answer and Question


As to where to find Celis White in the Boston area, I guess that
depends on how broadly you define the "Boston area". Harrington
Liquors, in Chelmsford, MA carries three Celis beers (White, Grand
Cru, and one other (Bock?)). They also carry a wide selection of
lambics, hard ciders, and beers from all over.

Now for a question: 
I tried Celis White over this past weekend and I LOVED it!! Does
anyone out there have a recipe (yet) that approximates it? Any tips
would be greatly appreciated. 

BTW, I'm "only" an extract brewer so far. (Sorry, I couldn't resist).

Thanks,
Alan Derr
(aderr at bbn.com)

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 09:38:33 -0800
From: "Stephen Hansen" <hansen at gloworm.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: SG temperature correction

There have been several articles lately that either
requesting information on the variation of specific
gravity with temperature or in obvious need of such
information.

The Homebrew Archive at Sierra.Stanford.EDU has a file
containing correction factors for specific gravity vs.
temperature.  The file is sg_vs_temp and anonymous ftp
users will find it in the pub/homebrew/docs directory.
Those of you using the listserv should use the command
"get homebrew sg_vs_temp".

Stephen Hansen
homebrewer, archivist

- --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--
 Stephen E. Hansen - hansen at sierra.Stanford.EDU  | "The church is near,
 Electrical Engineering Computer Facility        |  but the road is icy.
 Applied Electronics Laboratory, Room 218        |  The bar is far away,
 Stanford University, Stanford, CA 94305-4055    |  but I will walk carefully."
 Phone: +1-415-723-1058   Fax: +1-415-725-7298   |      -- Russian Proverb
- --=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=--

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 13:49:33 EST
From: rowan at soil.rutgers.edu (Andy Rowan)
Subject: Answers about bottle labels

I got lots of mail in response to my question about making bottle
labels on a laser printer, so I thought I'd summarize them for
others.  I guess longer-time readers of HBD or r.c.b. will have
seen these already...

Lots of people suggested printing on regular paper and then sticking
it to the bottle by wetting it with milk (yes, milk).  All said
it sticks perfectly well as long as the bottle stays dry, and comes
off easily with a soak.

As far as glues, I got the following suggestions:
   1 part white glue (like Elmers) to 2 parts water.  Water soak to remove.
   Glue sticks for kids, which are soluble in water.
   Dennison "Tack a Note" glue stick, with sticking power of a post-it note.
   Rubber cement.  Remove label (and cement) by peeling it off.

As far as self-adhesive (mailing) labels, most are VERY difficult to remove,
but Don Howard wrote that Z-LABEL brand laser printer labels come off
easily after a short soak, and cost about 2 cents each.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 11:46:39 PST
From: jwsb at netcom.com (Justin Broughton)
Subject: Cat's Meow Evaluation


The Cat's Meow (for those who don't know) is a compilation of recipes 
posted on the Internet and in HBD. It is available via anonymous ftp
from sierra.stanford.edu in /pub/homebrew/recipes.

I have already posted this to the internet, but realized that I forgot
to post to home brew digest. So please excuse the duplicate posting.

Looking through the Cat's Meow recipe book, there seems to be no indication
of whether the recipe has been tried by others and found to be reasonable
and/or whether it gives the same results.

I have been talking with Mark Stevens (one of the compilers of the recipe
book) and we agreed that a survey of this kind would be most useful.

Therefore I am asking you all to reply to me (jwsb at netcom.com) with 
details as follows:
 . chapter containing recipe (beer style)
 . name of recipe
 . number of times brewed
 . changes to any ingredients (if any)
 . changes to the procedure (if any)
 . SG/OG
 . overall quality of the beer 
 . if problems were experienced what you think the reasons for
   the problems were
 . would you brew it again?
 . if you would what would you change.

Please send only recipes which you did not significantly change.

To the originators of the recipe - if you have repeated the recipe since
feel free to send me your comments as well.

Results will be forthcoming. I will probably not post them since this 
might cause ruffled feathers, but will mail to anyone requesting them.

Thank you in advance for all your time.

Justin Broughton
Configurex Inc., South San Francisco, California
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
- -- 

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 15:03 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Dorky Topics

 
 >From: orgasm!davevi at uunet.UU.NET (David Van Iderstine)
 >Subject: Re: All-grain vs. extract
 
 >Excuse me for noting, but this all-grain vs. extract thread has gotten
 completely dorky and out of control. Can we get on with other things?
  
 I find it an interesting perversion of the objectives of a discussion forum 
 to consider a topic "dorky" because it generates a lot of interest.
 
 I think the objective is to discuss what is of most interest to most people 
 and those who are not interested in such a topic are free to skip it.  
 Complaining about what is discussed may or may not be "dorky" but is 
 certainly a more obvious misuse of bandwidth.
 
 js
 

Return to table of contents


Date:    Wed, 24 Feb 1993 17:23 EST
From: Phil Hultin <HULTINP at QUCDN.QUEENSU.CA>
Subject: pH

Just a quick point.  It is perfectly normal for pH to vary with
temperature.  Thus, your pH meter should give a different
reading for hot and cold solutions.  Good laboratory pH
meters have a temperature adjustment, and the really nice
ones automatically compensate for temperature.  If you want
to you can find how to correct pH meter readings for the temp.
effect, but it is probably easier to just adjust your sample
to the right temp. before making the reading.

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 18:30:57 -0800
From: pascal at netcom.com (Quasimodo The Hunchback)
Subject: Re: fermenter geometry


"Date: Mon, 22 Feb 93 07:49:20 PST  
 From: "Bob Jones" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
 Subject: Fermenter geometry

"During my discussion with Pierre Celis, the subject of fermenter
 geometry came up. He mentioned that the head or foam cap in a shallow open
 fermenter was much more dense and stable than one in a closed smaller
 fermenter. He said he don't understand it either. I know when I visit Anchor
 and see their fermentations at high krausen I am only getting a snap shot of
 the fermentation. Say Russ, when you've walked by that room several nites in
 a row, have you EVER seen that foam fall? I don't know how any of this would
 apply to us, it is just an interesting observation and may explain how open
 fermentation can be safe in some cases."

My intuition is that there is a connection between the fermentation and the
surface-to-volume ratio. In the book _On Aggression_ ( author's name escapes
me, alas ) it discusses the difficulty of maintaining enough oxygen in the
aquariums ( this was before World War II, no pumps, little electricity ) and
notes that, even with the inclusion of a large portion of the closed ecology
of proximate ponds into the tanks, including moving creatures which stirred
up the water ... a very large surface-to-volume ratio was a prerequisite.
( The author was researching the aggressive instincts of cichlids ... )

Others have noted that readings for mash efficiency, as well as temperature,
vary from top to bottom in mash geometries which emphasize height. This is
optimal for conservation of heat, but not so for circulation of mash solution,
such that this too bears some additional examination.

Summary : I'd guess there is a lot of garnered experience which has guided
some isolated brewers down this path, and that this bears further examination
in both the mash and the fermentation sequences.

I haven't done a mash yet myself ( ObDisc: I have used grains as adjuncts ),
but when I do, I expect I'll stir things to keep a temperature gradient from
forming and to evenly expose everything to walls and atmosphere. I don't do
open fermentation and, lacking a controlled environment, I'd hesitate to, as
this would also provide a larger target for drifting spores and bacteria ...


- -- richard

     "It is obligatory, within the limits of capability, to commend the
      good and forbid evil."     _Kitab_Adab_al-Muridin_, by Suhrawardi

                richard childers          pascal at netcom.com

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 19:18:00 -0800
From: pascal at netcom.com (Quasimodo The Hunchback)
Subject: Proposed North Bay Bike Ride & Pub Crawl


I just purchased a lovely new mountain bicycle, and have been riding all
over San Francisco, having a blast. It didn't take me long to conceive
of other possibilities ... such as taking the ferry boat to Angel Island,
in the middle of San Francisco Bay ... or beyond, to Larkspur or San
Rafael.

I mentioned this to a few bicycle-riding beer buddies, and they told me
of a brewery that's apparently just a stone's throw from the San Rafael
ferry landing. This is apparently a well-known ride amongst many locals.
I don't know its name but I'm sure many others do.	(-:

So, I'm proposing a Bay Area HBD Ride, from San Francisco - probably the
south end of the Golden Gate Bridge - across the Bridge, through Sausa-
 -lito, along the edge of the Bay, northwards to San Rafael, using exist-
 -ing bike trails already established, stopping at pre-established points
for those wishing to join en route.

Once at the brewery, we dissemble for excellent ( I've been told ) food
and beer, departing as convenient to ride back to our vehicles along the
route, if appropriate, or taking the ferry back to San Francisco, and then
riding back from whence we came within San Francisco. ( Those doubting that
this might be possible might prefer to park along the Embarcadero and ride
their bikes to the Golden Gate Bridge in the morning, so that their cars
are only a few blocks away when they get off the ferry. ) Naturally, some
people might prefer to remain together all the way back to the Toronado ...
or we could even meet there in the first place, instead of the Bridge.

Naturally, mountain bikes ( 18 speed or above ) are recommended, as this is
not a short ride ( although every effort has been made to plan it so that
it is not necessary to ride uphill and that the majority of the trip will
be downhill or level bayshore ), but I leave the final decision to the dis-
 -cretion of the individuals, and promise to assist anyone who has problems
en route, as the person responsible for this proposal.

I think this would be a _great_ opportunity to match names with faces, and
get a few of the lurkers to emerge into the light and let us introduce our-
 -selves and sweep them into the mileau. As well as establish that one can
be physically competent while drinking copiously, and still brewing.

Proposed date : Sunday, 07 March 1993.

What say ye ? Email me at pascal at netcom.com, please.


- -- richard

     "It is obligatory, within the limits of capability, to commend the
      good and forbid evil."     _Kitab_Adab_al-Muridin_, by Suhrawardi

                richard childers          pascal at netcom.com

Return to table of contents


Date: 25 Feb 93 03:36:48 GMT
From: SynCAccT at slims.attmail.com
Subject: Yeast Starter Temperature

I have 3 Lagers fermenting now, 2 at 42 degrees F and 1 at 48F. All
of these are fermenting (what I would consider) rather slowly. All
3 batches started at 1.052 and after a month in the Primary are
between 1.032 and 1.040. Fermentation does not appear stuck as they
all have a good krausen still and are generating a fair ammount of
co2 (1 bubble every 10-15 seconds).

I'm using 2035, 2308 and 2007, 2 cultured from my slants and one
straight out of the Wyeast pack. My question is: these yeasts were
built up to pitching volume (about 2/3 quart of slurry) in 2 steps,
the first in 1/2 pint of wort and then into 1.5 quarts, over 5 days.
The starters were fermented on top of the fridge and with the
heat from the back of the fridge I would guess it was about 80-85F.
The starters were chilled to match the wort at pitching time and all
started to ferment actively within 15 hours.

Is there a correlation between yeast performance and starter
fermentation temperature with S.uvarum? I'm concerned that I've
promoted mutated cell growth, generating an active starter that
performs well only at warmer temperatures.

Gravity has slowly declined over the last month, the beer tastes fine
so I suspect patience will be the solution to my problem. Any other
comments or suggestions?.....

 ...Glenn Anderson

  gande at slims.attmail.com













Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 24 Feb 93 23:51:35 MST
From: thomas ciccateri <tciccate at carina.unm.edu>
Subject: HB Competition

  The Albuquerque, New Mexico USA-based Dukes Of Ale are again
sponsoring their annual AHA Sanctioned Beer Competition.  Deadline
is April 16, 1993.  Fee is $2.00 per entry.  Judges are club-certified,
AHA certified, recognized, or masters.  Info: Art Priebe at
73707.2262 at compuserve.com   Buena Suerte.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 08:22:56 -0600 (CST)
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Fix times two

 
 Figured out how to beat the system.  I posted 7 articles yesterday and all 
 got acknowledged except the two that were 40 lines long.  The longest one 
 acknowledged was 33 lines.  Here is the "long" one in two parts...
 
 >From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
 >Subject: George Fix's Address
 > I'm trying to send mail to George Fix, and his address as it
 shows-up in the digest is not sufficiently complete to accomplish this
 (gjfix at utamat).....
 
 Sure glad someone else is having this problem.  Virtually all my mail bounces 
 to George but it seems to get through often enough to prove that it is a good 
 address.  The last two letters I have sent about 10 times and specifically 
 asked him to acknowledge receipt.  It is particularly frustrating because it 
 contains an apology to his wife which I hereby extend to anyone else who may 
 have been offended by my use of an old boy's term referring to things that 
 happen to men in the night.
 
 This is the way the bounce appears in my mail and I get the response within 
 seconds so it is not happening at his location.....
 
 cont..........


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 9:06:54 CST
From: cush at msc.edu
Subject: Re: galvanized screen & Zinc

I would caution against giving an unqualified 'yes' to using galvanized
screen in the mash.  I seem to recall that Zinc can be highly toxic in
too high a concentration, though it is a 'vitamin' at lower concentrations.

If I am remembering wrongly, someone please correct me, but I do believe that
as far as Zinc goes, there can be 'too much of a good thing'.
- -- 
	> Cush Hamlen				|	cush at msc.edu
	> Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc.	|	612/626-0263

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 09:10 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Mashout

 
 >From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
 >Subject: Another Mash-out Idea
 
 >I realize that the liquid level is greatly increased so it is harder for the 
 enzymes to find the starch, but still...
 
 This aint necessarily so.  I use about 3.5 gal of mash water to 12 lbs of 
 grain and when it settles down after mashing, I end up with one inch of 
 liquid above the grain.  This level is maintained through the entire sparge 
 so the ratio of grain to liquid does not change till I turn off the sparge 
 water source at the end.
 
 >Reactions?
 
 Burrp
 
 Hmmmm.... Just occurred to me that the last two lines are another good 
 example of a typical CIS beer forum message that one would have to pay to 
 read.
 
 js
 
 

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 09:07:27 -0600 (CST)
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Mashout

 
 >From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.EDU>
 >Subject: Another Mash-out Idea
 
 >A thought: If unconverted starch, originating from dry sections of malt, 
 might be released during the sparge; would it not be prudent to forgo the 
 mash-out so that the enzymes, which are also in suspension (I assume), can do 
 their bit on the newly released starch? 
 
 Two problems here...  As most people claim to be sparging at 170F, the 
 enzymes would be deactivated by the heat.  Of course some of us realize that 
 the real temp in the grain is closer to mash temp so you are probably right.  
 Therefore, what you are effectively doing is increasing the mash time without 
 increasing the time it takes to mash.  Not a bad idea, probably.
 
 The real problem with forgoing the mash out is that the real temp in the 
 grain bed drops even lower and could create all sorts of other problems.
 
           cont............

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 09:11 CST
From: arf at ddsw1.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Red Star

 
 >From: korz at iepubj.att.com
 
 >On a related note, I have written in the past warning about the use of
 the yeast that comes with Munton & Fison Kits (it use to be called
 Muntona, but now I think it just says "yeast").  I said that it gave
 very, very high levels of phenolic/clove aromas and flavors and that
 I suggested it not be used.
 
 This sounds dangerously reminiscent of my experiences with Red Star and all 
 its repackaged clones.  When I thought I was trying different yeasts, I later 
 learned that it was all repackaged Red Star.
 
 Do you know who makes the yeast?  I personally, would never use a yeast that 
 did not identify the actual lab that makes it. 
 
 I suspect that 90% of the love affair (mine included) with liquid yeast 
 results not from switching to liquid but from getting away from Red Star and 
 its stealth progeny.
 
 js

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 08:10:26 -0700
From: Kelly Jones <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>
Subject: gelatin fining


 "Dean Roy"  <DEAN at alpha.uwindsor.ca> writes:

>Can someone tell me if there is any difference between the gelatin finings
>sold in homebrew stores and the plain unflavored gelatin you can buy at the
>supermarket. I have a supply of the supermarket variety and was considering
>using some on my latest batch.

I don't generally fine my beer, but as a home winemaker, I do fine my wine,
and yes, plain unflavored gelatin works great. The procedure for wine is to
soften about 1 tsp gelatin (per 5gal wine) in some warm wine, and stir into
the carboy. Takes 7-10 days to settle out.


Kelly Jones               <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 11:40:23 EST
From: Joe Rolfe <jdr at wang.com>
Subject: Attemperation/Repitch


hi all,

Nick asks
>   	with all this talk about the perfect fermenter
>        design I was wondering if somebody could comment at
>        what point does the heat buildup become high enough
>        to affect the ferment? Also are the Wyeast preferred
>        temps for the ferment or ambient? So does a
>        40-50litre ferment create enough heat to alter an
>        ale ferment? How about lagers?

well Nick, I would guess that you would like to keep
the primary ferment temp as close to the recommended temps
as possible (65F for ales, 55F for lager).  I would say that 
depending on the flavour profile you want anything more than
+/- 10F is too much.  Smaller batches, from my limited playing
with them don't seem to change very much from ambient +/- 5F
in the middle of the vessel.  I would venture that the 10 or so
gallon batches could produce enough heat to require 
attemperation.  I dont have a 10 gallon fermenter, but my 2BBL
fermenter will generate quite alot.  If I pitch at 70F, ambient 
temp being in the low 60'sF, the next morning at the peak of
fermentation - temps will be approaching 80F.  This only 
happened once - thankfully.  I now cool the fermetner down to
62F after I see signs of fermentation - this usually takes a
few hours.

As an aside here - I would like to use a sankey keg for a 
fermenter.  I have heard of George Fix using a pony (1/4BBL)
which I assume has no internal/external plate or coil. 
Anyone using any 1/2BBL ekgs with attemperation devices, other
that sticking in a drum of water??? 


SRIRACHA <radavfs at ube.ub.umd.edu> asks:
 
>My brewing partner and I recently started using liquid yeast and
>are quite pleased with the results - the cost, however, is making
>us wonder about whether or not we should buy a new packet every time
>when a strain could be reused...I guess our question is this:  How
>have the experiences of other digesters been regarding saving the
>sludge?  Do you seal it up with some malt extract?  Do you put it
>into a container that would allow stoppering/airlocking?  Just curious...
>we saw a couple of possible containers the other day, but I thought I'd
>beter write first...How about "Grolsch-type" bottles?
 
You can store it in a sanitized (or as close to sterilized as you can get)
vessel (jug, - i use a pop keg).  If you are not going to repitch within
a day or so (guessing here -- anyone know how long?), put the vessel in
a refrig (40F).  It should last a week or so (again how long??).  I would
repitch within a week or dump it myself.  Grolsch bottles should work 
fine for smaller (5-10 gallons ferments).  When you do take it out of the 
refrig (as Mike Sharp recomends warming the slurry up well in advance).
I assume that when Mike does this it is done fairly slowly not to shock
the beasts into mutation.   My process is to remove from the refrig 2 days
in advance, on the first day store it at 10F higher than refrig temp. 
The second day store at a 10F higher that the previous.  As I cool the wort
some of the wort is diverted to the keg with the slurry.  I allow this to
sit at temps as close to pitching for an hour or so.  The fermenter is then
areated for 45 min with sterile air.  At the half way point in areation
the slurry is pitched.  Since doing it this way (past 4 times) the
fermentation is underway in 2 hrs (no lag here) and the final gravity is
reached within 3 days (usally 2). 

>From the general reading in HBD and other pubs - if your clean you can bet
on repitch of 5-6 times.  If your really clean and do the lab work - you 
should be able to repitch forever(???).  I will be stopping at 5 times - 
until I can afford the time do it, a scope, chemies and the lab space.

good luck and stay clean!
- -- 
joe rolfe 
jdr at wang.com    
508-967-5760

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 11:47:32 EST
From: kstiles at aluxpo.att.com
Subject: Sugared Extracts

A subject thread about the quality of malt extracts led 
Richard Stueven to re-post Martin Lodahl's article about the report 
from Professor Ingledew's of the University of Saskatchewan about 
sugar in malt extracts.  Since Prof. Ingledew seems so afraid of
lawsuits, let me point out that I am not asserting in the following
that any company, foreign or domestic, is adulterating its malt
extract with sugar.  I merely note these observations; draw your
own conclusions.

I recently bought some American Eagle light dry malt extract.  It
seems peculiar in a number of ways:

	1)  It is not a uniform powder like other DME that I've
bought (M&F, Laaglander).  Rather, it is a mixture of a light
brown powder and white crystals.
	2)  It doesn't clump into hard blobs like other DME
when mixed with water.  It just dissolves more like, say, sugar.
	3)  It doesn't have a strong malt taste like other DME.  
It tastes more like slightly malty very sweet wall paper paste.
	4)  When used in a yeast starter, the starter tastes,
well, cidery.  

Keep in mind Prof. Ingledew's point that any adulteration can
be done by a distributor as well as the supplier. 

We all know about the high FG's from using Laaglander, presumably
from a high dextrin content.  Any experiences with American Eagle
(the DME, not the canned extract)?

Kevin Stiles


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 08:52:31 -0800 (PST)
From: James Thompson <sirjames at u.washington.edu>
Subject: Labels:  Affixing & Removing

Since I make my own paper labels, I affix them with regular gluestick;
they stay on fine, and come right off in hot water -- this hot tip
brought to you from my homebrewer tutor, Mark Antush... Hi, Mark! :-)

For removing labels from used commercial beer bottles, I recently
purchased a brush-scraper combination designed for cleaning bbq grills. 
After soaking the bottles in hot water, the scraper makes short work of
removing the paper, and the brush takes off the glue.  Although it is a
metal-bristle brush, I haven't noticed any problem with scratched
bottles.  

Jim Thompson
sirjames at carson.u.washington.edu
Disclaimer: "These opinions are only our own, aren't they my Precious?"




Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 12:25:00 +0000 
From: "Rick (R.) Cavasin" <cav at bnr.ca>
Subject: re: idophor, rinse/reuse 


JS relates further experiments with iodophor sanitizer:

Hmmmm.  How much headspace in each testtube? (headspace vs
solution ratio could be fairly high in a testtube)
Did you open either tube (thus releasing iodine vapour in headspace)
during the test? Both stoppers sealed tightly? Possible leak?
Ideally, the test should be carried out with several tubes in each
group, and outliers discarded.
I've used my solution several times since my previous posting (without
augmenting the iodophor) and though the amber colour may have faded a
little (hard to remember what the original shade was - could mix up
more I guess), it is still definitely amber.  I guess there's no
real way to know the sanitizing power vs colour relationship.
Ya pays yer money and ya takes yer chances.
Check the label on your iodophor - mine says the iodine is supplied in
the form of a complex.  This might make it less volatile.
Cheers,
Rick C.

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 12:25:00 +0000 
From: "Rick (R.) Cavasin" <cav at bnr.ca>
Subject: Wyeast reuse/stretching 

There's been some renewed interest in making the most of Wyeast
packages lately.  Although I think I've posted this before, it
sounds like there's at least a few people who might find a repost
useful.  Here's the method for stretching the Wyeast that I
have been using successfully.  It should be noted that storing the
the yeast in the form of sediment may be suboptimal (someone else
posted a simple yeast washing technique some time ago - haven't
tried it).  All I can say is that this method has worked for me
with 4 different Wyeast ale strains (Whitbread, Irish, German, European).
It's simple, and requires no special equipment.  Alternatively,
it allows several brewers to swap yeasts with each brewer propagating
one strain.

******************************************************************
Briefly, my suggestion consists of converting the original Wyeast
package into a number of 'copies' stored in beer bottles.
ie. it is a parallel propagation rather than a serial propagation

Step 1:
Prepare some starter wort (S.G. = 1.020), see Miller's book for
recipe.  Basically, you need about 1/2 gallon, but if you make
more and can it in mason jars (using standard canning procedures),
you will not have to prepare more at a later date.

Step 2:
Place 1/2 gallon or so of starter wort in a suitable container
(1 gallon glass jug), pitch (inflated) Wyeast package at correct temp.
and fit air lock. This is the 'master' starter.

Step 3:
Allow to ferment to completion.  When fermentation has ceased,
agitate the 'beer' to suspend all sendiment, and very carefully
bottle it.

You will now have about 6 bottles of very thin beer with a good
deal of viable yeast sediment in each bottle.  Use each bottle
as you would use a package of Wyeast - ie. prepare a starter
culture a couple days before brewing.  This is facilitated by
canning wort when you prepare the master starter.  All you need to
in that case is pop open a mason jar of wort, dump it into a
sanitized bottle/jug of appropriate size, pop open one of your
bottle cultures, add it, agitate vigorously, and fit an air lock.

All yeast starters are of the same 'generation', ie. 'twice
removed' from the original Wyeast package (as opposed to the usual
'once removed').  This helps avoid the accumulated contamination over
multiple generations that may occur with serial propagation.
I've had the bottled
cultures remain viable for more than 6 months (so far).

Observe proper sanitation and wort aeration procedures thoughout.
Equipment: 1 gallon jug (for 'master' starter)
           1.5 litre wine bottle (for subsequent starters)
           air lock
           6 beer bottles, caps and capper

Optional equipment: mason jars and canning pot.

*****************************************************************

Later,
Rick C.


Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 1993 13:45 EST
From: Carlo Fusco <G1400023 at NICKEL.LAURENTIAN.CA>
Subject: Brewing on Line

Hello brewers,

I want to tell you that with the newest interest in putting yeast into
anything fermentable, I have updated the 'Brewing on Line' list to
'Brewing on Line vers. 2' It is a text file of about 8k.

It is available from sierra.stanford.edu via anonymous ftp. It is in
the pub/homebrew/docs directory, and is titled brewing_on_line.v2

For those using the listserver, you can get it by mailing a message
to the listserver with the following comand "get homebrew brewing_on_
line.v2"

Carlo.................g1400023 at nickel.laurentian.ca

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 25 Feb 93 10:35:03 PST
From: Jack St.Clair at fmccm6 <Jack_St.Clair_at_fmccm6 at ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Homebrewers 'round the world

Just a thought that I'd like to share.  I've been reading the HBD for 
about a year and a half it got me started into homebrewing and has 
taught me many things.  One of the interesting things about the digest 
is the diversity of the people who post and their locations.  I have 
seen postings from England, Ireland, Scotland, Germany, New Zealand, 
Australia, South Africa just to name a few.  Sometimes it is dificult to 
acertain where the posting is from even though the poster includes 
his/her full name and their computer mail address.  My thought?  Why not 
include City/Country in your post.  It might prove very interesting and 
may start new friendships around the world.  Just a thought.

Jack (I brew for the taste of it) St.Clair
JACK_ST.CLAIR_AT_FMCCM5 at CCM.HF.INTEL.COM
Folsom City, California, USA ---(See how easy it is!)

Return to table of contents



End of HOMEBREW Digest #1086, 02/26/93