FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Lager starting (korz)
  Cooper's Yeast ("Rad Equipment")
  All-Grain Help/BrewCap ("Joe Stone")
  re: Ginger beer summary (Dick Dunn)
  bikePUBcrawl (Richard Childers)
  brwon sugar (J. Fingerle)
  Don't count on it Dan ("John E. Lenz")
  Britishmen, not Englishmen (J. Fingerle)
  unsuscrube me (D. Stewart McLeod)
  celis beers arrive in Chicago (Tony Babinec)
  RIMS Questions (Greg_Habel)
  Current RIMS setup9s) (Richard Childers)
  Boiling on electric stove (sbsgrad)
  Miller Clear "ZIMA" (Jack St.Clair at fmccm6)
  Hops in keg (Bob Clark)
  Re: RIMS (Richard Stueven)
  Boiling fruit, Pectate enzyme (korz)
  Re: Ranching (Andy Rowan)
  Pectic Enzyme, Oil (Jack Schmidling)
  Mail order hop cutting source (Keith A. MacNeal HLO1/T09 225-6171  05-Mar-1993 1410)
  Re: electric stoves (Nick Zentena)
  Boiling on an electric stove  (W.R.) Crick" <heybc at bnr.ca>
  RE: WATER BOILING ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE (Garrett Hildebrand)
  WATER BOILING ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE (Thomas_Joe)
  Sparge efficency  (Lee Menegoni)
  Re: Ranching (Drew Lawson)
  Re: Dallas Carboys (Steve Agard)
  Peracetic acid (DDICICCO)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 15:42 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Lager starting

In a recent post, I described *one* method that is used to start a
lager fermentation, in which the ferement is started at a warmer
temperature and then cooled for the main ferment.  Jim Busch, in
private email pointed out:

><stuff that kills some bacteria" and then raise the temperature.  It's sort
><of backwards from one common way to make lagers: to start the batch at
><around 65F and then once the yeast get going, (slowly) lower the temp to
><40F or 45F.
>
>I personnaly believe this is bad advice to those wishing to brew authentic
>lagers.  Yes, starting the ferment at 65F will go a long way toward 
>getting the ferment going, but it will adversely affect the flavor 
>profile of the finished product.

What Jim means is that esters will be produced and you'll get the fruity
flavors of an ale which you would like to avoid in a lager.

>Once the ferment gets going at 65F, the
>thermal energy will push the average internal temp up as much as 10F!  
>Unless the brewer has a amazingly efficient attemperation device, the 
>"lager ferment" stage would be at high kraeusen around 65-70F until the
>chiller could kick in.  It can take as much as three days at 49F to 
>reduce the temp into the acceptable range and by this time most of the
>primary ferment will be complete.  Also, one does not want to reduce the
>temp below 48F until 90+% of the primary is complete.  At this time,
>a two day rest at 42F will be adequate to reduce diacetyl levels, prior to
>reduction to 31F for lagering.  This is another personal nit of mine that
>I frequently hear homebrewers refer to a 70F diacetyl rest. This is indeed
>an efective way to "rush ferment" lagers as Professor Narziss has documented
>very well.  But this technique is intended to produce lagers in less than 21
>days, total time!  Even in this method, the primary is carried out at 55-58F
>and not into the 60s.  
>
>This is not intended to be a flame, and I think you are doing a good job
>of informing the public of various techniques.  I believe the attitude to
>push the temperature is a result of grossly inadequate pitching quantities,
>and is a poor substitute for healthy yeast.

He's right.  I should probably mentioned the preferred method in which the
starter is slowly (to avoid temp shock) cooled to, say, 50F and pitched
into 50F wort.  Then you can slowly bring the temp down to the 40s if you
want.  Note that this will give you a much slower start than the method
I suggested in my original post and therefore will require much better
sanitation, but if it's lager you're after, I recommend (as Jim does)
that you follow the German methods as opposed to the "rush ferments"  that
the American industrial giants use.  Note that fruitiness is also tied
to the strain and some are less fruity at warmer temps than others.

Thanks Jim.
Al.


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Date: 4 Mar 1993 16:05:53 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Cooper's Yeast

Subject:  Cooper's Yeast                        Time:1:57 PM     Date:3/4/93
Al says:

>The Coopers is quite fruity fermented at 65F and probably the
>best dry ale yeast I've ever tried.  It's not phenolic at all
>and all the flavor is a very clean fruitiness.

My experience with Cooper's is that it has a distinct "bready" character. I
generally use Sierra Nevada cultured from a few Pale Ale bottles. I have
substituted Cooper's at times when my starter didn't make the grade. I make a
house ale regularly with no modifications to the recipe unless I pitch the
Cooper's rather than the SNPA. The Cooper's is much less fruity with more yeast
taste or, as I said, "bready". Attenuation seems to be about the same between
the two. My house ale has an OG of 1.060 and finishes around 1.018 with both
yeasts.

RW...

Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61)
UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / 474-8126


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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 21:36:46 PST
From: "Joe Stone" <JSTONE at SJEVM5.VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: All-Grain Help/BrewCap

  I completed my first all-grain batch about three weeks ago.  Two-and-a-half
gallons are now bottled.  The other two-and-a-half gallons were filtered
(0.5-micron "Filter Store" filter) and are now carbonating in a keg in my
fridge.  I sampled the beer in between the primary and secondary and it had a
pronounced "grainy" taste (grainy as in grain husk).  Being my first all-grain
batch, I severely underestimated the heat-retention capabilities of a Vollrath
pot.  I combined nine pounds of grain (one pound at a time) with a steady
stream of 170oF water.  The initial mash temperature was 150oF.  In my haste,
I immediately applied heat to the mash with a 35K BTU cooker.  The Vollrath
pot has a SS tooled screen in the bottom.  Upon applying heat, the temperature
of the water/grain-dust solution below the screen increases rapidly.  By the
time I could thoroughly stir the mash, the temperature was at 190oF.  Oops!
Not only did the temperature hit 190oF, but it took a good 45 minutes for the
temperature to return to the target range.  I was hoping that someone could
confirm my seemingly-obvious diagnosis of the "grainy" taste.

  I also have a question regarding sparging.  I often read of two and three
hour sparges.  I use an elevated cooker/pot arrangement to bring heated water
to the grain bed via a sparge ring.  I have good control over the drip-rate.
My question involves what is considered appropriate in terms of a sparge rate.
With my first all-grain batch mentioned above, I "throttled-back" the flow
rate using the spigot in the bottom of the pot.  My objective was to sparge
for one hour and collect about six-and-a-half gallons of wort.  After about
45 minutes, the flow rate had reduced to a trickle (with the spigot now
wide open).  I would estimate that I collected about four gallons of wort.
Does this seem appropriate?  Should I be calculating my extraction rate?

  I can't imagine a better siphon-starter than a BrewCap.  I took a very
sharp 0.5" drill bit and drilled out the main stem of the BrewCap.  There is
a significant amount of excess material between the I.D. and the O.D. of the
main stem.  I soaked the BrewCap in hot water for a few minutes and inserted
my 0.5" O.D. hooked racking tube into this enlarged stem.  I slid an 8" piece
of tubing over the auxiliary stem into which I simply blow.  The siphon starts
every time and your mouth doesn't come anywhere near your beer.

js

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Date: 4 Mar 93 23:19:07 MST (Thu)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: re: Ginger beer summary

Dave Whitman <rsndww at rohmhaas.com> writes about ginger...

> Many people pointed out that the sweetness of the wort may be masking the 
> ginger flavor...

This is backwards from my experience (and some cooking experience as well)
 - a bit of sweetness usually tends to bring out spices, ginger in
 particular.

>...The message is that 1) lots of recipes use about 3 oz of ginger 

FWIW, we've used a lot more than that, and had good results.  We used about
9 oz in an amber ale that turned out nicely, and about twice that in a
mead.  (these were 5 gal recipes)  The amber ale was a prize-winner some
years ago.  The mead is still young, hence a bit assertive, and you need to
calibrate the difference in alcohol content (meads generally being a lot
stronger), but it's not excessive.  Don't be too bashful!  I'd say you can
put half a pound of ginger in a serious ale, and a pound in a good mead.

> Jim Grady suggests grating the ginger rather than slicing it.  For what it's 
> worth, I tasted the ginger slices after boiling, and they were pretty 
> flavorless, suggesting that the flavor was sucessfully extracted.

That's a good test, but I wonder if you may not have boiled off some part
of the essence?  (conjecture only)  We have added ginger to the hot wort
or must, then transferred it to the primary and let it stay for at least
the first week or so.

> Spenser Thomas warns that he tried adding pieces of ginger to each bottle, 
> which gave good flavor, but also caused gushing...

Definitely a problem...nucleation points.  Anything rough will cause CO2 to
come out of solution rapidly.  (It could be a sanitation problem as you
suggested later, but I think not.  It's just a matter of providing the kind
of surface that makes CO2 bubble out.)

> (another) He has added ginger to his secondary, and that doesn't seem to 
> help, and sometimes leads to off-flavors.  He speculates the pulp rots, and 
> suggests I try dried, ground ginger.

No, stay with fresh ginger.  You lose too much otherwise.  I'd suggest
trying to treat it more gently--get it hot enough to sterilize, but don't
boil it.
 ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

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Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 22:23:57 -0800
From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard Childers)
Subject: bikePUBcrawl


Despite suggestions to the contrary, I have decided to go ahead and carry
out this bicycle-based pub crawl, as scheduled, this Sunday, 07 March 1993.

I realize that the weather may not prove suitable but my intuition is that
it will be a glorious day. Early March in San Francisco usually is.

If anyone cares to skip this bicycle ride, it may happen again, if it proves
at all to be successful or reasonably well-attended, in a month or so. It's
also possible some other bikePUBcrawls might be scheduled, elsewhere in the
Bay Area ...

Those of you without the inclination to bicycle ( Russ Wigglesworth, to be
precise, but surely others as well ) are welcome to meet us at the brewery,
within the time range we estimate we'll be arriving within - see below for
the approximate schedule.

The destination is the Marin Brewing Company, 'in Larkspur, at 1809 Larkspur
Landing Circle( ph# 415.461.4677)', to quote a helpful soul. ( Thanks, PDK. )
The route is described below, although it is also reachable by car as well as
by ferry. ( This route is also summarized below, but I include other direc-
 -tions for purposes of redundancy of informedness - thanks, Paul J. )

I encourage everyone to invite a friend or three. Safety in numbers ...

Here's the schedule :

Sunday	1130	arrive at south end of Golden Gate Bridge, via bicycle from
		Fisherman's Wharf ( where car is optionally parked ), or,
		park on ocean side of bridge, by old WWII artillery bunkers
		and ride bicycle over to meeting point ( short stroll ).

	1200	depart from south end of Golden Gate Bridge, meeting on the
		west side of the bridge ( bicycle side ) between 1130 - 1200.
		bring a windbreaker, a backpack, and water, of course, as
		well as ancillary items - tools, spare tire, pump, headlight
		if you plan to ride at night, etc.

		Over bridge, loop around to road underneath, follow around
		to Sausalito, through Sausalito, through Mill Valley, under
		101 overpass, across marshes, to stop light  at  Blythedale.

	1300	Depart intersection of Blythedale, negotiate neighborhood
		via bike path, towards and parallel to 101, over hill and
		into Corte Madera, to Tamal Vista Street.

		Follow Tamal Vista to end, turn right, cross 101, turn left,
		follow bike path parallel to 101, into Larkspur.

	1400	Arrive Larkspur, check ferry schedules, converge on pub for
		cold ale and hot food.

	1600	Head back to San Francisco via ferry. Windbreakers useful.

	1800	Possible sunset gathering at the infamous Toronado.

Caveats :

	- There won't be any good way to deal with dead bicycles en
		route, so I ask everyone to

		(a)	determine that their vehicles are in good shape, and

		(b)	determine how they will cope with problems if they
			occur ( I suggest Golden Gate Transit ).

		I'll have a pump but I'm not a professional bike mechanic.

	- Bring spare change in case you need to make calls or take a bus,
		as well as bicycle locks and the like.

	- Bring tools if you have them, between us we may be able to fix
		any small problems that crop up.

	- Mountain bikes are advised simply because they are more able to
		resist flat tires through their architecture, and flats
		are the single greatest nemisis of bicyclists.

	- Bring some snacks, we'll be working up an appetite ...

Here's a longer but more precise explanation provided by Paul Jasper.


- -- richard

     "It is obligatory, within the limits of capability, to commend the
      good and forbid evil."     _Kitab_Adab_al-Muridin_, by Suhrawardi

                richard childers          pascal at netcom.com


> Richard,
> 
> I don't know about San Rafael, but a group of us often cycle from 
> San Francisco to Larkspur Landing during the summer months.  It is
> about 22-24 miles from the centre of SF to the Marin Brewing Company
> in the shopping area at Larkspur Landing Circle.  There's a footbridge
> over the road from the ferry landing that takes you right up behind 
> the brew pub.  The beer is excellent, and the food is pretty good too.
> 
> Our route:
> 
> Cycle through Park Presidio to the Golden Gate Bridge (very pleasant,
> but check the map for the precise route).  Careful as you leave the
> park: observe stop signs and the speed limit, because cops often
> hang out in the bushes on busy summer days (honest - they'll ticket
> you!)  You'll cross under the bridge to get to the bike path on the
> west side of the bridge (east is for pedestrians only).
> 
> Over the bridge and turn left immediately on the other side across a 
> narrow pathway to take the road that winds down under the bridge.  
> Follow this round the coast into Sausalito.  
> 
> Follow the marked bike route (there's one place where you dismount and 
> carry your bike down some steps).  Basically, you follow a straight line 
> all the way out of Sausalito to Mill Valley, going under the 101 viaduct.
> Eventually, you come to a junction with stop lights.  Cross the road, 
> the bike path continues and is quite wide.  You'll reach a right turn 
> into a residential street - take this.  I think you pass a small school.  
> 
> Keep going straight on towards 101.  When you reach it, there is a pathway 
> alongside 101 that takes you over the hill - very important, because all 
> other routes involve multiple steep hills.  There is a sign saying 
> "Horse Hill" and something about being a rest-home for retired horses,
> and asking for donations.  Funny, because you'd only see it if you were 
> driving the wrong way on 101!  By now you'll be looking forward to a beer!
> 
> When you reach the road on the other side of the hill, keep going straight
> on, down the hill, towards Corte Madera.  The road winds around to some 
> stop lights.  Cross straight over and follow Tamal Vista past the 
> shopping center (Safeway, etc) on your right.  You'll also pass another
> set of shops on your right, including Any Mountain, where you can pick
> up spare parts for your bike.
> 
> At the end of Tamal Vista, turn right at the lights.  You'll come to 101
> again, where you have a choice: you'll see a footbridge you can cross,
> or you can take the road to the right, under 101, left at the lights
> and towards the other end of the footbridge.  From there, there is a
> path alongside 101.   After a short distance you get to a point where 
> you cycle unguarged from the traffic alongside the off-ramp from 101,
> across a bridge.  Don't cross any roads, just follow the path with the
> road to your left as it curves to the right towards Larkspur.  You'll 
> soon see the strange structure of the ferry building.  Go there and
> check on the times of the ferries, then cross the bridge to the brewery.
> 
> Mountain bikes aren't necessary for this trip.  My friends with racing 
> bikes probably find it less exhausting than I do (the bigger tires have
> more friction with the road).  It's an enjoyable excursion, but you'll
> really be grateful for a beer when you reach the brewery, unless you
> are a lot fitter than me!  I usually take BART home (you can get a 
> temporary pass) from the Ferry Building in SF to avoid the hills back 
> to where I live in Glen Park.  I'm in no condition to attempt the
> ride home!
> 


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Date:      Fri, 5 Mar 1993 08:14:06 EST
From: Ming-chung Lin <MARS at suvm.acs.syr.EDU>

Subject:   Siphoning, clear bear

Call me primitive, but I siphon beer the way we learned
to siphon gas as kids.....So far I've had only one lousy
batch (for totally different reasons), and a couple of
award winning brews.  I sterilize the tubes while doing
the rest of the equipment, so my hands are pretty clean.
If worried about contaminating the batch I sometimes hold
the end of the tube in my hand and suck through my hand.
I've done this much more often than we did gas as kids,
and brew tastes much better.

Daniel Roman,,,,,You don't think that clear beer appeals
to "women's taste", do you????  I was a little insulted
to be put into a category of people who like that kind of
thing.  Perhaps you (and Miller) should find someother
words to use for people who like clear beer.  Women I know
who drink beer (most of us brew our own) prefer strong ales
and stouts.

Lisa St. Hilaire <MARS at SUVM.ACS.SYR.EDU>

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 09:07:33 EST
From: fingerle at NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (J. Fingerle)
Subject: brwon sugar


OK, several people mentioned that they add "brown sugar" to
their British Ale recipes, and several others have very
quickly responded that in America, "brown sugar" means
regular granulated white sugar with molassass-and, they
usually caution, it should NOT be used.

Well, what is meant by "brown sugar" to an Englishman? 
Anyone know?  And to those of you who mentioned that you
use "brown sugar", please be specific, do you mean the 
American stuff, or something else?

And to those of you who say not to use American brown
suger, do you have any thoughts on what to use instead?

Yankee minds need to know...
- --
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
name:  Jimmy                          On balance, it is a wonderful thing that
email: fingerle at NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL    the cold war is over.      -Bill Clinton
 -or-   fingerle at NADC.NAVY.MIL         ON BALANCE?!?  It's end has a down side?
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

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Date:         Fri, 05 Mar 93 09:18:39 EST
From: "John E. Lenz" <JELJ at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Don't count on it Dan

In HBD # 1091, Dan Roman says: "I certainly don't expect anyone to get into
homebrewing to make "clear beer"."

Dan, haven't you seen the advanced copy of the 1994 AHA style definitions?:

      CLASSIC EGREGIOUS BEER-TYPE BEVERAGES

      29. CLEAR BEER
      Category award sponsored by CMB, the consortium of mega brewers
      (current membership: coors, miller, bud, though a wannabe in Boston(tm)
      has applied).
      a) American standard clear beer--effervescent, no color, no head, no
         malt flavor or aroma, no fruitiness, diacetyl, or esters,
         imperceptible hop bitterness, flavor and aroma.
         Geographic subcategories:
         1) Milwaukee style--low levels of PCB's acceptable, must be in a
            clear bottle.
         2) Colorado style--should be indistinguishable from pure
            Rocky Mountain spring water (except for alcohol content).
            Not to be confused with Colorado Clear Bastardized Malt Beverage.
         3) St. Louis style--should bear a striking resemblance to filtered
            Mississippi river water, but with lighter body and crisper flavor.
      b) American premium clear beer--a generally "bigger" version of American
         standard clear beer.  Geographic subcategories still applicable.

Also, look for Clear Beer Light and Clear Beer Dry for the 1995 competition.
And, for 1996, or '97 should anticipated legal hassles arise, expect to see a
Boston Clear Beer category, details relating to trademark restrictions and the
numbers of marketing weenies and lawyers required to assist in the brewing
process are yet to be worked out.
Ooogy wawa,
John

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 09:27:46 EST
From: fingerle at NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (J. Fingerle)
Subject: Britishmen, not Englishmen


Seconds after I posted regarding brown sugar, 
Desmond Mottram says:

PS please don't refer to England or English when you mean Britain or 
British. It upsets the natives no end.

Sorry, my apologies.  No Offense meant.

BTW, so as to distinguish me from the denizens of Canada or Mexico D.F.,
who, like me, are techincally Americans, I prefer to be known as
a Pennsylvanian.. ;*)
- --
/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
name:  Jimmy                          On balance, it is a wonderful thing that
email: fingerle at NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL    the cold war is over.      -Bill Clinton
 -or-   fingerle at NADC.NAVY.MIL         ON BALANCE?!?  It's end has a down side?
\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 07:21:15 -0700
From: lhdsy1!pandora!vstem at uunet.UU.NET (D. Stewart McLeod)
Subject: unsuscrube me

Please take my name off of the distribution list please.

vstem at calgary.chevron.com

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 8:52:33 CST
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: celis beers arrive in Chicago

Sam's, on North Avenue, had cases of Celis White and Celis Grand Cru.
Just in time for First Thursday at Goose Island!

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 10:21:44 edt
From: Greg_Habel at DGC.ceo.dg.com
Subject: RIMS Questions

Message:
I am submitting this for Jeff, a fellow homebrewer who is 
experimenting with RIMS.  His statement is:
We use the standard RIMS revisited (from Zymurgy gadget issue) and 
the temp control works fine.  Temp readout is not working well 
because it is subject to some EMI (electro magnetic interference) 
caused by all the equipment (pump, heater etc).  Our real problem is 
the motor control which due to its open loop nature is unsatisfactory.
We are looking to implement a closed loop control using a Motorola 
chip TDA1185A or some other intigrated solution.  How does your motor 
control work?  Has anyone implemented a closed loop control?  
                                 Greg



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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 07:54:51 -0800
From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard Childers)
Subject: Current RIMS setup9s)


"Date: Thu, 4 Mar 93 9:51:31 CDT
 From: agerhardt at ttsi.lonestar.org (Alan Gerhardt)
 Subject: My Current RIMS setup

				.
				.
				.
    The recirculating wort now flows through the screen in the 
    middle as well as through the bottom. Since the primary goal 
    during the mash phase is to control temperature, it really doesn't
    matter that the flow is not uniform through the garin bed any
    more. The temperature seems to be reasonably uniform through
    the mash, and no compaction occurs.
    
    Also, by having the return flow from the pump exit below the 
    surface of the wort, I no longer have any foaming. That hopefully
    reduces HSE.
    
    At sparge time, I simply reduce the flow way down, pull the
    tube out, and give the mash a gentle stir. After about 5-10
    minutes, the wort is running clear again. I then turn the 
    pump off, start the pre-heated sparge water flowing in at 
    about the same rate as the wort drains out the bottom."

I've been thinking about RIMS designs for a year or so myself, and while
I'm hardly a mechanical engineer, it seems to me that it would be possible
and efficient to agitate the grain bed and maintain circulation, not with
a pump, but with a few sources of vibration around the container, which
would massage the grain and distribute the heat _very_ nicely, without
the problem of aeriating the solution.


- -- richard

     "It is obligatory, within the limits of capability, to commend the
      good and forbid evil."     _Kitab_Adab_al-Muridin_, by Suhrawardi

                richard childers          pascal at netcom.com

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Date:    Fri, 5 Mar 93 17:27:19 GMT
From: sbsgrad%sdph.span at Sdsc.Edu
Subject: Boiling on electric stove

From: Steve Slade <sslade at ucsd.edu> 
Date sent:  5-MAR-1993 09:11:29 PT 

Joe Thomas asks about boiling his brew water in an 8 gallon ceramic on 
steel kettle on an electric stove.

I've been doing this for several years now. It takes a few hours with the 
lid on the pot, but the water does eventually come to a boil, and maintains 
the boil for as long as needed. I use the one large burner on our stove, on 
HIGH. This tends to heat the stove top from heat reflected off the bottom 
of the kettle. I've found that placing aluminum foil on the stove top 
around the big burner prior to brewing helps the stove to survive. Before I 
did this I had several pieces of the stove top flake off after brewing, so 
beware!

************************************

Now a question I've been meaning to ask: How do I make a beer that is, for 
lack of a better term, thick? The best beers I have tasted have all seemed 
like they have more body, or greater viscosity, than the ones I brew using 
a partial mash. I don't want to brew a sweet beer, so useing less 
attenuative yeast is out. Do dextrins add body without a sweet taste? I've 
tried using 1/4 cup flaked barley in a 5 gallon batch without much luck. Is 
carapils or one of the Belgian malts a better choice?

Thanks,

Steve Slade 
reply to: sbsgrad%sdph.span at sdsc.edu  or  sslade at ucsd.edu

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 09:38:29 PST
From: Jack St.Clair at fmccm6 <Jack_St.Clair_at_fmccm6 at ccm.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Miller Clear "ZIMA"

     Yes folks, you have heard right.  Miller has produced a clear 
     liquid they are touting as a clear malt named "ZIMA".  We've tried 
     it and I suppose it will soon become a fad for the politically 
     correct.  Like Corona and a squeeze of lime. Yuk!  Anyway, IMHO it 
     tases like 7-Up and alcohol and, again, IHMO is not very pleasent.  
     It reminds me of my younger days in the service when we used to mix 
     "Everclear" (198 proof alcohol) with 7-Up for that quick buzz.  In 
     ZIMA, the alcohol tast/aroma is very pronounced as is the citrus 
     taste.  I've had one and will never (yes, I mean NEVER) have 
     another.
     
     My son will probably like it and buy it.  You know, he's the one 
     who drinks Coors Light and calls himself a beer drinker. Viva le 
     difference!
     
     Jack
     Folsom City, California 
     jack_st.clair_at_fmccm5 at ccm.hf.intel.com

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 09:42:44 PST
From: Bob.Clark at Eng.Sun.COM (Bob Clark)
Subject: Hops in keg

I've seen only passing reference to throwing hops into the
keg at kegging time.  Have any of you tried this?  I'm a hop
head, and love both SNPA and Liberty Ale, and my dry hopping
hasn't gotten me there yet.

	Bob C.

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1993 09:53:59 -0800
From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>
Subject: Re: RIMS

In HBD# 1091, Alan Gerhardt <insert clever word synonymous with "says",
because I can't find my thesaurus>:

>I hope this helps give someone more ideas to keep improving the
>RIMS technology. More personal equipment experiences would really
>help the s/n ratio on the digest.

Following through on an idea from George Fix, I'm working on a summary
of all of the RIMS discussions from the HBD back-issues.  I hope to
finish it today (Friday), as I'll be out of town next week.

(Any Phoenix brewpub recommendations?  Anybody there interested in
having a pint bought for them?  :-)

have fun
gak
Castro Valley, California

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 11:58 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Boiling fruit, Pectate enzyme

Chuck writes:
>I have a very short question regarding the use of pectate enzyme.  As I
>understand it, this enzyme can be used to break down the pectate that will set
>as a result of boiling a fruit, preventing the set pectate from clouding beer.
>
>My question(s) are these:  Is that statement above correct?  At what point in
>the process is this enzyme added to the wort?  (Before, after boil, in
>secondary...)  How much is necessary?
>
>I'm planning to use this in a cherry beer that I am making.  Actually, the
>beer is already fermenting, and I'm planning to add the crushed cherries in a
>couple of days.  To avoid nasties, I'd like to boil the fruit before it's
>added to the fermentation.

I've never used pectic enzymes, but I have a suggestion.  This worked
for me on a recent beer and in 6 months, no gushers, therefore, no
infection.  I surmised that any nasties would be on the OUTSIDE of the
fruit, therefore, I simply dipped the frozen cherries in very hot (212F)
water, for 15 seconds.  I figured that the coldness of the frozen centers
would keep the pectins from setting.  Well, they did a little bit, but
most of the cloudyness settled out and the beer is quite clear for a fruit
beer.  Perhaps you might want to consider freezing and blanching like I
did and then also using a bit of pectic enzyme?  I'm also eager to learn
about pectic enzymes, so I hope someone out there tells us more about them.
I'll bet there's something in the Fruit and Beer issue of Zymurgy (sorry,
don't recall which issue it is) on pectic enzymes, but I haven't had the
time to read all of it.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 13:12:48 EST
From: rowan at forest.rutgers.edu (Andy Rowan)
Subject: Re: Ranching

Michael Fetzer writes:

  >Ahem. All this talk of Ranching is getting to me! Look folks... they're
  >plants. We call that farming! Ranching is for critters... Seems to be a
  >common misconception amongst brewers. *grin*

Now I'm not so sure!  Let's look at this for a moment.  Let's see...
Back in our younger days (or mine anyway), Zappa used to sing
that he wanted to move to Montana (soon) and be a dental floss tycoon,
"just me and the pigmy pony, out by the dental floss bush."
So dental floss is evidently a plant, too, but I don't recall him
ever saying he was going to be doing *farming*.

Maybe to be safely generic we should be talking about "yeast husbandry,"
(too gender-ist, I guess), or "yeast-o-culture" (no, then people
would think it was a cult).

Yeastology?  Yeasticism?

Those of us from the Atlantic coast of the US could call ourselves
"yeasterners."

========================================
| Andy Rowan                           |
| Cook College Remote Sensing Center   |
| Rutgers University, New Brunswick NJ |--> on the banks of the Raritan
| rowan at ocean.rutgers.edu              |       "I love that dirty water"
========================================

"Yeast is yeast, and west is west..."

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 12:16 CST
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Pectic Enzyme, Oil

 
 >From: Chuck Coronella <CORONELLRJDS at CHE.UTAH.EDU>
 >Subject: Pectate enzyme
 
 Can't answer any of your questons regarding beer but...
 
 My last batch of cider was made from apples just about too far gone to use.  
 The juice looked more like watery apple sauce than juice.  Nothing settled 
 out in the overnight settle and after fermenting it still looked like apple 
 sauce.  It sat for months with no change even though I racked it several 
 times.
 
 Several weeks ago I racked again and added pectic enzyme and was astounded to 
 find it crystal clear in the morning with two inches of apple sauce on the 
 bottom.  This stuff is like magic.
 
 >From: Lloyd MacIsaac <UGF00011 at vm.uoguelph.ca>
 >Subject:      Oiling Your Mills...
 
 >When I worked in a Restaurant the chef used Vegitable Oil to keep his
 kitchen gadgets from rusting (esp. roasting pans). Perhaps this could
 be the answer for mills? 
 
 Good point.  The instructions that accompany each mill recommend exactly that 
 for people living in very humid climates of if it is to be stored for a long 
 period of time. 
 
 >Don't know if it works, but sounds better than refined motor oil!
 
 Just a point to keep in mind, machine oil is not much different from mineral 
 oil which is taken as a remedy for various and sundry maladies.  I wouldn't 
 suggest drinking it but on the other hand, there is no reason to believe that 
 it is inherently toxic.
 
 >From: des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
 
 Interesting article but I have never quite understood why this...
 
 >PS please don't refer to England or English when you mean Britain or
 British. It upsets the natives no end.
 
 Trying to understand this has lead me to realize that there is no name for 
 people who live in the USA and some Canadians, for example, get insensed if 
 you call them Americans and others if you don't.
 
 >From: Jeff Frane <70670.2067 at compuserve.com>
 
 >*This is twice in the last week that Jack and I have agreed on
 something -- will the planets shift their courses?
 
 That would be trivial compared to the real sign from on high....  the day 
 when Jay H responds to my request to read his Beer Forum.
 
 >From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>
 >Subject: Re: Sanitizer
 
 >I'm no biologist either, but how's this:  if you have the means to
 generate and manage it, wouldn't live steam make a reasonable and
 "green" sanitizing agent? 
 
 I suspect that steam is very commonly used in commercial operations but you 
 correctly identified the problem at home.  Producing and controlling it is 
 not a trivial problem compared to sloshing a little iodine around.
 
 js

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 11:12:03 PST
From: Keith A. MacNeal HLO1/T09 225-6171 05-Mar-1993 1410 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Mail order hop cutting source

In the March 4 edition of HBD, Tim S. asked people to e-mail him info about 
mail order sources for hop cuttings.  I tried but couldn't get through on the 
address he posted, so I'll post the info to HBD:

Tim,

There is a chain of stores called Worm's Way which sells hop root cuttings.
They have stores in MA, MO, and FL.  They are primarily a garden supply
company specializing in hydroponics.  They also feature homebrewing supplies.
There is one near where I live.  I plan on stopping in soon and picking up
some hop cuttings myself.  They do mail order.  Here's the phone number for
the store in Worcester, MA.  They might be able to direct you to a store 
closer to you or maybe mail you some themselves.

Worm's Way
(508)797-1156

You might want to call 800 information and see if they have a toll free 
number.

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA

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Date: 	Fri, 5 Mar 1993 13:35:54 -0500
From: Nick Zentena <zen%hophead at CANREM.COM>
Subject: Re: electric stoves

> 
> Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 13:09:00 CST
> From: Thomas_Joe at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil
> Subject: WATER BOILING ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE
> 
>  I HAVE RECENTLY MOVED TO A SMALLER PLACE THAT DOESN'T ALLOW B-B-Q'ING 
>  OR THE USE OF A KING COOKER. THEREFORE, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF ANYONE 
>  HAS HAD SUCCESS BOILING THEIR WORT ENTIRELY ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE? IF 
>  SO, HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE AND CAN YOU SUGGEST ANY TIPS TO SPEED THE 
>  PROCESS WITH MY 8 GAL. CERAMIC ON STEEL POT.

        Before I starting using a propane burner I never had
        any real problems with using my electric stove. Just
        set the kettle up so it sits on two elements. It
        takes awhile to come to a boil and you have to leave
        the lid on to get a good boil but it works. Usually
        when the water is heating up I have other things to
        do.[i.e crushing grain]

        Nick


*****************************************************************************
I drink Beer I don't collect cute bottles!
zen%hophead at canrem.com
*****************************************************************************

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 1993 14:33:00 +0000 
From: "Bill (W.R.) Crick" <heybc at bnr.ca>
Subject: Boiling on an electric stove 

Joe Thomas asked about boiling an 8 gallon pot on an electric
stove. What yo need is a HotRod (tm).  Get a 220v electric hot
water heater element of the type that screws into the tank.
Get a 1 or 2 litre plastic juice bottle, and cut the bottom off of
it. Hook a 110v cord to the element, and screw the element into the
neck of the juice bottle so the element sticks out. See graphic
below. Float this sucker in you pot to give the stove a help.
Also useful for raisnin temperature of cooler type mash tuns.
Note at 110v the element will be approx 1/4 the power rating for
220v. We have 3000 element that yields about 750w.

            _________-=  cord to 110v outlet
           /
     |    (   |
     |    )   |Juice Bottle
     |    (   |
/\/\/|    )   |/\/\//\/\/\/\  wort which juice bottle floats in
     |    (   |
     \    )   /     at   at <-- Hot break flocks because you use irish moss
      \ |==| /       at  <-- Hops
       \|--|/
        -||-
         ||
         || Heater element
         ||
         ||
         ||
         \/


Bill Crick


Disclaimer:1. Don't build this.
           2. Use a ground fault protected outlet.
           3. Don't get the cord wet.
           4. Be careful
           5. Don't build this.
           6. I take no responsibility for anything related to
              this post.
           7. This is my opinion, not BNR's

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 11:33:20 PST
From: mdcsc!gdh at uunet.UU.NET (Garrett Hildebrand)
Subject: RE: WATER BOILING ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE

Date: Wed, 3 Mar 93 13:09:00 CST
From: Thomas_Joe at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: WATER BOILING ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE
In HBD 1091, Joe Thomas writes,

> I HAVE RECENTLY MOVED TO A SMALLER PLACE THAT DOESN'T ALLOW B-B-Q'ING
> OR THE USE OF A KING COOKER. THEREFORE, I WOULD LIKE TO KNOW IF
ANYONE
> HAS HAD SUCCESS BOILING THEIR WORT ENTIRELY ON AN ELECTRIC STOVE? IF
> SO, HOW LONG DOES IT TAKE AND CAN YOU SUGGEST ANY TIPS TO SPEED THE
> PROCESS WITH MY 8 GAL. CERAMIC ON STEEL POT.

Before I got my outdoors propane burner set up, I used to boil my wort
on a standard GE electric kitchen stove burner. I, too, was using a
ceramic on steel pot. I found the burner to be most inadequate.

I also found several methods to improve the situation.

 -       To get the wort hot initially, I used two smaller stainless
pots
	which has aluminum-clad bottoms. When the stuff was boiling, I
	moved it to the big ceramic on steel pot.

	(BTW, I still use the same pot, and am still unhappy with it. I
	have yet to find a place to buy a 6 gal and up stainless pot of
	decent construction with an aluminum-clad bottom [the aluminum
	transfers the heat better]).

 -       Before I hit on the use two burners with the smaller pots idea,
	I would heat up the large pot faster by putting on the lid,
	then
	first placing pot holders all over the top, then secondly
	draping
	kitchen towels over that, with the towels hanging down the
	sides
	to help hold the heat in.

	You can tell by the sound when you need to take the lid off to
	avoid boil-over. It is risky until you know though, and I did
	create one heck of a mess before I got the system down!

 -       If the burner does not put out enough heat to sustain a full
	boil with the lid off, then put the lid on between stirs after
	it hits the full boil. When you hear it going real good, take
	the lid off and stir it around for a bit. The full boil will
	continue with the lid off for a while, then die back down. Time
	for the lid again.

That is all the advice I can offer you on that one. Best of luck!

gdh

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 16:27:04 EST
From: Lee Menegoni <necis!lmenegon at transfer.stratus.com>
Subject: Sparge efficency 


When people indicate the degree of extraction they get for all grain
batches what technique do they use?  I do the following:
After sparging I stir the contents of the brew pot and take a sample 
of the well mixed liquid.  I measure and temp adjust the specific gravity. 
I multiply this value times the volume in the brew pot and divide the
total by the number of pound of grain.
eg.  an sg of 40 in 7 gallons of liquid = 280 total sg points
divided by the 10 lbs of grain = 28 pts per lb.
I have acidified my sparge water, verified my grain bed temp was over 150
made sure that the Corona cracked grain was not under milled and verified
complete conversion using iodine tests of the stirred mash.  I have not had 
haze or clarity problems with my beer.  Sparge time is about 1.5 hours using 
a zappap lauter tun with a 1" false bottom.  What am I doing wrong that 
prevents me me from getting to the next level of all grain snobbery
the thirtysomething level of extraction all grain snob??
- -- 

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 15:52:56 PST
From: lawson at acuson.com (Drew Lawson)
Subject: Re: Ranching

> Ahem. All this talk of Ranching is getting to me! Look folks... they're
> plants. We call that farming! Ranching is for critters... Seems to be a
> common misconception amongst brewers. *grin*

Just to educate you (as someone else educated me a month ago in
alt.folklore.urban), yeast are not plants according to modern
biological taxonomy.  The fungi are in a different kingdom from the
plants.

Drew Lawson                      If you're not part of the solution,
lawson at acuson.com                you're part of the precipitate

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Date: Fri, 5 Mar 93 18:48:11 -0600
From: sagard at digi.lonestar.org (Steve Agard)
Subject: Re: Dallas Carboys


Roddy McColl asks, in HBD #1090, where a homebrewer can find
a carboy for under $15. Several suggestions:
	1. Work a deal with a local homebrew shop on a used
           5 gal carboy. there's an excellent shop in the area.
	2. Mail order a 6 or 7 gal carboy - it's a bit more
	   expensive, but I think Miller and Papazian recommend
           this size over a 5 gal. I've seen a 7 gal Italian
           carboy (real homebrewer's art...) for ~$25. (I use
	   a 5 gal secondary, but a 7 gal bucket as primary)
	3. Call one of the bottled water suppliers and ask
	   for an empty glass carboy (there are a lot of
       	   plastic ones around), for which you'll be asked
	   to pay the deposit (~$8).
	4. Go to Whole Foods, or some other quality supplier,
	   and buy a 5 gal w/water (~$15 including deposit) and
	   use the water in your first batch (makes great SNPA
	   if not distilled water) and the carboy is yours.
Cheers.
Steve Agard


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Date:    Fri, 5 Mar 1993 22:55:46 -0500 (EST)
From: DDICICCO at USC.PPPL.GOV
Subject: Peracetic acid

A recent thread concerning the possible use of peracetic as a sanitizer 
prompted me to search for some information on this compound. The Merck
Index lists peracetic as "a powerful oxidizer, strongly corrosive to
tissue, explodes violently upon heating to 110 deg. C." Coupled with 
the fact that one liter costs $90, this information left me wondering
if any significant benefit could be realized by using this compound.
Anyone have any practical experience with this substance?
[Cool glass of Chlorox, anyone? ;)  ]

Darrell DiCicco
Princeton

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1092, 03/08/93