FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Sanitizing Chemicals (Markham R. Elliott)
  Carboy for under $15 (Joe H. Barfield)
  Texas Brewpub Legalization (Joe H. Barfield)
  Ranching or Farming? (Rick Myers)
  Places to go in Brussels (Rob Simpson)
  WOMEN,BEER,AND THE HBD (Sandy Cockerham)
  White beer: let's talk turkey (Phillip Seitz)
  Cornelius keg FAQ (Mike McCaughey)
  Peracetic acid; sodium hydroxide (Joseph Nathan Hall)
  Re: English/British (Desmond Mottram)
  [To: rianhard:  New Home Brewing Store in N.J.] (FSAC-PMD) <pburke at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  Brew Supplies (Jpetty)
  weisse bier (CHUCKM)
  Newbie Questions (David Holsclaw)
  Sparge Times & water pH (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  re: Older, but not sweeter / Cloudy (James Dipalma)
  Plastic Primaries & Marin Brewery Directions (Richard Childers)
  Celis Substitute? (Norm Pyle)
  Raw Sugar (Jack Schmidling)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 19:54:56 GMT
From: u4imdmre at cpc41.cpc.usace.army.mil (Markham R. Elliott)
Subject: Sanitizing Chemicals

To all you technicals out there (and laymen like me), If I could get some
clarification on sanitation please.

In my last post to the HBD, I asked about the techniques of using a secondary
fermentation vessel, and a consensus on the amount of different priming
agents that could be used.  Many replies suggested I get a plastic bucket and
mix the priming agent with the beer in the bucket, then bottle from it.

Well I made the batch using a secondary and bottled it before getting a
bucket, we will see how it turns out.  I am a bit concerned about the
tremendous amount of fermentation activity for 3 days, then _nothing_.  But,
that is another matter.

This weekend I acquired a 5 gal pail (Carl West was right, check out Chinese
Food places [HBD #1041], not only do they get oil in them, but soy sauce as
well).  I took it home to clean it up (yuch! :-b ), using massive amounts of
Tide laundry soap, mass quantities of water and an old sponge.  I got to
thinking while in the midst of this mess, how should I really be cleaning and
sanitizing this thing.

A discussion was held in HBD issues 1030 through 1055 about cleansing agents,
disinfectants, food vs. lab grade plastics and the like.  What bothers me is
that nothing was really definitively stated about cleaning plastic pails.

It was noted that Iodine and Iodophor shouldn't be used because they stain,
and the plastic absorbs/leeches back the chemicals.  Detergents shouldn't be
used because they leave surfacants which are detrimental to the brew.  If
peracetic acid (acetic acid+H2O2) will dissolve an un-jacketed bullet, I'm
not going to use it on my equipment.  Finally, a lot was said about using
chlorine bleach, but no one seems to agree about how to use it (concentration
vs contact time etc.), or if it should really be used, again because of the
absorption/leeching problem(s).

I know, I know, RDWHAHB.  Really though, is there an accepted method and or
chemical to use, and what is it?  The bucket originally had soy sauce in it,
then apparently was used as a frying oil/grease repository.  Pretty gross
stuff before "cleaning".  I realize that the beer will be in the bucket for
only a short time, but I would hate to ruin a good batch of beer during the
bottling process just because I didn't clean the plastic right.

Suggestions are welcome, but again, is there a DEFINITIVE answer with regard
to HDPE plastic?

Noch einmal, bitte!!  Mark
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Markham R. Elliott                 u4imdmre at cpc41.cpc.usace.army.mil
 Information Technology Laboratory                     (601) 634-2921
 Waterways Experiment Station
 Vicksburg, Mississippi  USA
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1993 14:33:24 +0700
From: ifby546 at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joe H. Barfield)
Subject: Carboy for under $15

St. Patrick's of Austin sells 7  gal. carboys for $10. They advertise in
the back of Zymurgy.
Contact Lynne O'Connor at (512) 832-9045. Don O'Connor had a HBD post on
hop aroma last week.
Joe Barfield, Publisher, Southwest Brewing News, ifby546 at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Brewnews from Arkansas, Arizona, Louisiana, New Mexico, Oklahoma & Texas. 
406 W. 35th, Austin, TX, 78705.  512/467-2225. (FAX)512/282-4936. Subscrips
 - $12/yr.
- --------------------


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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 1993 14:44:19 +0700
From: ifby546 at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu (Joe H. Barfield)
Subject: Texas Brewpub Legalization

Folks, Texas Brewpub Legislation is in committee. Please write & call the
following legislators _this_ week_. All the major changes that would make
the proposed bad legislation into good legislation will be considered as
you read this.    If you have any questions please email me.
I didn't know if this was the correct forum for BPub legalization issues
but I figured a brewpub is a perfect place for homebrew clubs to meet! 
Please forward to all Texans who like beer. Thanks Joe Barfield, Publisher, SWBN
- ---
Southwest Brewing News Brewpub Legalization Guide. 3/8/93. Please forward
to interested friends.
Brewopub n. A brewery that sells its own beer on premise. Or a Restaurant
that brews its own beer. Legal in 42 states.  Something Texas needs to
legalize to join the rest of the civilized nation.
Folks, we can legalize brewpubs this year. All you have to do is call and
write to the following legislators and voice a few simple requests.
What to tell the legislators:  Key consideration: BE BRIEF! 
These folks are busy. If as many folks call in as we hope, we could
possibly end up alienating some V.I.P.'s if we drone on. It really won't
hurt if you limit your calls to the following three statements.
1."I support brewpub legalization in the TABC Sunset Bill"
The bill considered is referred to as the T.A.B Sunset Bill. There are
identical bills introduced in the Senate and the House. 
2. "I want brewpubs to have the right to sell for on and off-premise
consumption."
Currently, the legislation disallows sales for off-premise consumption.
Most states allow people to purchase a refillable container with which to
carry beer purchased at the brewpub home for consumption. Currently many
bars in Texas enjoy this right. Why should this privilege be denied to
brewpubs in Texas?
3. "I want brewpubs to have the right to limited self-distribution."
Brewpubs generally start small. So small that it's not worth a large
distributor's effort to distribute a brewpub's products to local venues. In
order  to supply a local area with fresh products, a brewpub has to
initially be able to distribute its own products. This may be as few as a
couple of kegs per week to a nearby bar. As the brewpub grows, it becomes
more rewarding to each party if a distributor handles a brewpubs contracts.
In fact, in California, brewpubs can distribute their beer, yet over 95% of
California's brewpub beer is distributed by beer wholesalers.
Who to contact: 
Write to and call the following important people: (and communicate the 3
phrases listed above)
1. Sponsors of Senate Bill #622: Senator Carriker       (512) 463-0130,  
Speak with  Mark Moran, Legislative Aide.
Senator Ike Harris, Co-author   (512) 463-0108,  Speak with Tiffany Wehner,
Staff Assistant.
Senator Carl Parker, Co-author  (512) 463-0104, Speak with David Gonzales,
Legislative Aide.
2. Sponsors of House TABC Sunset Bill: Representative David Cain       
(512) 463-0476,  Speak with the receptionist.
Representative Ron Wilson       (512) 463-0744
3. Members of Committees reviewing the bill     
Senate State Affairs Committee
O. H. (Ike) Harris, Chair       463-0108
Peggy Rosson, Vice Chair        463-0129
Steve Carriker  463-0130
Don Henderson   463-0107
John Leedom     463-0116
Eddie Lucio     463-0127
Gregory Luna    463-0119
Jane Nelson     463-0122
Jerry Patterson 463-0111
Dan Shelley     463-0106
David Sibley    463-0109
Royce West      463-0123
John Whitmire   463-011 House Licensing and  Administrative Procedures Committee
Ron Wilson, Chair       463-0744
Dan Kubiak, ViceChair   463-0600
David Cain      463-0476
Ben Campbell    463-0478
Bill G. Carter  463-0482
Mario Gallegos  463-0614
Tony Goolsby    463-0454
Paul Hilbert    463-0572
Delwin Jones    463-0542
Garfield Thompson       463-0716
Ken Yarbrough   463-0648
4.Your local Senator and House Representative   a. Call them at the phone
numbers listed on back page
        b. Write to them at the following addresses:
The Honorable {Representative}  The Honorable {Senator}
The House of Representatives    The Senate of Texas
P.O. Box 2910   P.O. 12068
Austin, TX 78768-2910   Austin, TX 78711-2068

If you aren't sure who your legislator is, call your county voter
registration office and ask for the names of your House Representative and
Senator. Your county's voter registration telephone number should be on
your voter registration card or in the county section of your telephone
book's blue pages. If you can't find the number call 1-800-253-9693. They
may be able to tell you your senator & representatives' names.
Attend the Public Hearings:
Call the bill tracking service at 1-800-253-9693. You can follow the
progress of the bills as they are reviewed by committees.   Remember, the
bills in question are referred to as the "TABC Sunset Bill".  HB335 is NOT
the Brewpub bill.  By all means, attend the public hearing! Sign up in
support of Brewpub Legalization. When your turn to testify is announced say
"I support brewpub legalization. I defer my comments to (the designated
spokespeople)." We will be at the hearing in advance and will let you know
who will speak on Brewpub Legalization's behalf. Of course you have the
right to speak on your own behalf, but exasperating the committee members
by droning on will hinder rather than help us. Remember, please BE BRIEF.
Questions can be referred to Joe Barfield, Publisher, Southwest Brewing
News at ifby546 at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu 
Address mail to 406 W. 35th, Austin, TX 78705. (512) 467-2225.
SUPPORT FRESH BEER IN TEXAS!
Joe Barfield, Publisher, Southwest Brewing News, ifby546 at ccwf.cc.utexas.edu
Brewnews from Arkansas, Arizona, Louisiana, New Mexico, Oklahoma & Texas. 
406 W. 35th, Austin, TX, 78705.  512/467-2225. (FAX)512/282-4936. Subscrips
 - $12/yr.
- --------------------


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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 15:03:29 MST
From: Rick Myers <rcm at col.hp.com>
Subject: Ranching or Farming?

> Just to educate you (as someone else educated me a month ago in
> alt.folklore.urban), yeast are not plants according to modern
> biological taxonomy.  The fungi are in a different kingdom from the
> plants.

OK, yeast are fungi.  But, have you ever heard of a mushroom ranch?  I
think not.  Most fungi grow from the soil.  I brew beer and raise yeast
on my 5 acre farm.  Therefore, yeast must be "farmed"...
:-)
- --
Rick Myers
rcm at col.hp.com

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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 14:48:05 GMT
From: Rob Simpson <robs at charles-cross.plymouth.ac.uk>
Subject: Places to go in Brussels

I am due to go to Brussels this week-end. Any recomendations as to where 
to go and what to see whilst there? Anyone know of any breweries that 
welcome visitors/have tours etc.?

Thanks

Rob
robs at cx.plym.ac.uk

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Date: 08 Mar 1993 19:10:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Sandy Cockerham <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L at LILLY.COM>
Subject: WOMEN,BEER,AND THE HBD

I HAVE TO AGREE WITH LISA ST.HILAIRE. I THINK IT IS RUDE FOR SOME OF YOU ALL TO
LUMP US IN THE CLEAR BEER LOVERS BECAUSE OF OUR GENDER. I TOO PREFER DARKER 
BEERS AND WILL ONLY DRINK A LAGER WHEN ABSOLUTELY NOTHING ELSE (INCLUDING
DIET COKE) IS AVAILABLE.
WHILE I AM ON MY SOAPBOX...I AM INSULTED BY JACK (AND OTHERS) USE OF THE TERM
'WET DREAM' IN THIS DIGEST. IT IS UNCALLED FOR AND IS TASTELESS IN THIS FORUM.
THIS DIGEST IS TO HELP US BREW BETTER BEERS, AND TO ENHANCE BEER APPRECIATION.
 ...NOT TO BE INSULTING.....
FLAME AWAY, I DON'T CARE!!
SANDY C.

From: COCKERHAM SANDRA L            (MCVAX0::RX31852)

To:   VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE            (IN::"homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com")

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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 93 03:01 GMT
From: Phillip Seitz <0004531571 at mcimail.com>
Subject: White beer: let's talk turkey

The arrival of Celis has spurred an interest in brewing white
beers, and in addition some HBDers have expressed a desire for
more recipes on the net.  The following recipe and comments
should provide a good start for people who want to get ready for
their summer white beer drinking.  

CITADELLE WHITE (5 gals.)

5 lbs. 2-row pale malt 
3 lbs. Belgian wheat malt
 .75 lb. hard red winter wheat
 .5 oz Styrian Goldings (6.8% AA), boiled for 60 minutes

10 grams ground coriander (boiled 10 minutes)
zest of 4 oranges and one lime (added after end of boil)
12.5 ml 88% lactic acid (added at bottling)
110 grams corn sugar in 4.75 gallons for priming

Hoegaarden white yeast cultured from brewery sample

OG: 1.042
FG: 1.012

Procedure:
Strike with 8 quarts  at  135F for 20 minute protein rest at 122-
124F; Add 1 gallon boiling water to raise to 145F, then heat to
158F for 30 minute saccrification; add 2 gallons boiling water
for 10-minute mashout at 170F; transfer to lauter tun and let sit
20 mins, then sparge with 6 gallons water  at  180F.  I stopped
sparging at 1.008, collecting 6.25 gallons at 1.037.  Boiled for
90 minutes and cooled with immersion chiller.

Tasting notes:
Lemon/gold color with a substantial haze and white head. 
Slightly orangey aroma.  Light to medium body with full, almost
moussy carbonation.  Light to moderate tartness with subtle but
pleasant coriander flavor, some orange present but faint. 
Aftertaste mostly tart and coriander-ish.  I wouldn't go head to
head with Celis White, but this is unmistakably a white beer and
will make for excellent hot-weather drinking.

Specifics:
Grain bill--The basic bill is 60% barley malt, 30% wheat malt,
and 10% raw wheat.  The latter was purchased at my local food
coop for $0.55/lb.  I would increase the gravity to 1.046 next
time but think these proportions provide good results with little
trouble.  The raw wheat was absolute hell to grind, but there
were no problems with the mash and sparge.
     Thanks to Jim Busch, the sultan of wheat beer, for help with
the grain proportions.

Hops: Anything will do as long as it's not too caustic or spicy. 
Go for something noble-ish.  My target was 14 IBU.

Yeast: A local brewer brought back yeast from the Hoegaarden
brewery, but I don't think the yeast choice is critical.  This
yeast has less character than the Celis, so anything that
ferments reasonably thoroughly and has some character should do.

Coriander: 10 grams (about 2 teaspoons) gave good but not strong
flavor, to my palate a bit more than the Celis white but not
anywhere near excessive.

Orange: I purchased some dried orange peel at my coop, and boiled
2 grams in one gallon of water as a test.  The result had a very
unpleasant, ham-like flavor and aroma.  The same applied when I
used dried McCormick peel, and even fresh peel (though a little
less so).  I did NOT want this flavor in my beer (if you don't
believe me, try it!).  For this reason I used the Papazian fruit
method, adding the peel just after the boil for sanitation
reasons.  This worked pretty well, though most of the aromatics
were scrubbed during the fermentation; I used a 6.7 gallon carboy
for a single-stage fermentation, and for the first 3 days it
smelled like orange juice.  If you want more orange aroma, add
some peel to your secondary.  Since Sunkist oranges aren't
curacao oranges, I added the peel of one lime for some tartness
and character.  Can't tell if it helped, but it sure didn't hurt.

Lactic acid: At time of bottling the beer was 4.7 pH, and not
tart.  I added lactic acid (available from the Malt Shop in
Wisconsin) to taste, starting with 10 ml.  2.5 additional ml
brought it to about where I wanted it, and the pH at that point
was +/- 4.3.  However, I dosed it according to taste, not
numbers.  The result was right on target, taste-wise, and I'm
thoroughly sold on the use of this stuff.  
     Thanks to the many HBDers who provided information on their
experiments with this ingredient.

Please note that this recipe will not make you two cases of Celis
or Hoegaarden, but I think you'll do fine with it.  Some tweaking
to bring it in line with your own tastes, and I hope the notes
will save you some time, effort, and experimentation.  

Phil Seitz
PSEITZ at MCIMAIL.COM
Arlington, VA


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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 22:08:25 CST
From: mrmike at geta.life.uiuc.edu (Mike McCaughey)
Subject: Cornelius keg FAQ

A long time ago some kind soul posted a FAQ-like
document on Corny keg cleaning, handling and filling
systems. Alas, now that I'm ready to take the plunge, 
I can't find it in my own archives or at Stanford. Could
someone send me a copy or point me to where it is on the
archives? 

Alternately, since questions about soda-pop kegs keep
uh, popping up (sorry), it might be a good idea to put
one together for the Stanford archives. I'm willing to
put it together, but I am obviously not a kegging expert
and will need to solicit your advice.

Send mail to me directly to avoid clogging the digest.

Tanks and Regards,
mrmike
mrmike at geta.life.uiuc.edu

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Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 22:27:15 EST
From: joseph at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Subject: Peracetic acid; sodium hydroxide


Darrell said:
) A recent thread concerning the possible use of peracetic as a sanitizer 
) prompted me to search for some information on this compound. The Merck
) Index lists peracetic as "a powerful oxidizer, strongly corrosive to
) tissue, explodes violently upon heating to 110 deg. C." Coupled with 
) the fact that one liter costs $90, this information left me wondering
) if any significant benefit could be realized by using this compound.
) Anyone have any practical experience with this substance?

I myself have wondered why a couple of the hbd luminaries have announced
their intentions to use this stuff for sanitation purposes.  In any
event, I think you can roll your own by mixing strong acetic acid
and strong hydrogen peroxide.  Now, the glacial acetic is cheap, and
so is 30% h2o2.  (Stay away from the 50% stuff.) 

BUT: Not having tried this, I can't tell you whether or not it blows up 
in your face.

- -----

In a similar vein, I just tried using sodium hydroxide (lye; caustic
soda) to clean some hoses.  All I can say is, WOW.

I added about 1 oz of a saturated, filtered solution of sodium hydroxide
(about 1 part NaOH to 2 parts water) to 3-4 inches of warm water in my
sink and dropped in the offending hoses, which included one blowoff
tube coated inside with hop and protein scrudge.  (Needless to say,
I was wearing a nice, thick pair of rubber gloves.)  The stuff
*immediately* came off the tube into the water, much as water soluble
ink might have.  A few minutes soak and a little swish, followed by
a thorough rinse, and, voila, squeaky clean tubes.

Although the handling precautions are considerable, I would recommend
this to anyone who has a tough cleaning problem.  (But obviously you should
keep lye away from your aluminum utensils unless you want to dissolve
them.)  I may begin using it to clean my carboys after messy primary
fermentations.

================O Fortuna, velut Luna, statu variabilis================
uunet!joebloe!joseph   (609) 273-8200 day   joseph%joebloe at uunet.uu.net
2102 Ryan's Run East        Rt 38 & 41             Maple Shade NJ 08052
Copyright 1993 by Joseph N. Hall.   Permission granted to copy and
redistribute freely over USENET and by email.  Commercial use prohibited.

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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 93 11:37:11 GMT
From: des at pandora.swindon.ingr.com (Desmond Mottram)
Subject: Re: English/British

> >PS please don't refer to England or English when you mean Britain or
> >British. It upsets the natives no end.

My somewhat flippant remark provoked so many inquiries by mail I felt a 
post to clarfy was in order, despite having nothing to do with homebrew. 
I'll keep it short and suggest follow-ups to soc.culture.british or by mail.

Britain / British Isles / UK mean practically the same thing. England does 
not. Britain comprises England, Wales, Scotland, Northern Ireland, the Isle 
of Man and the Channel Islands. The English are of predominantly Nothern 
European extraction: Saxon and Dane. All the others are predominantly 
Celtic and were there before the Romans came. They all have their own 
languages and culture. (If you visit England take a trip into Wales and 
you'll see bilingual road signs).

Owing to political and economic domination by England, a fierce nationalistic 
pride is possessed by the Welsh, Scots and Irish, who do not wish to see 
their national identity submerged and dominated by the English. So they 
don't like it when they are referred to as "English". British is OK but if 
you know the person's origin, Welsh, Scot/Scottish, or Irish is better.

Only Northern Ireland is in the UK. Eire is not. They are Irish, period. 
"Brit" is a common term of abuse there.

Is this recognisable to some of you? Funny lot humans...

Rgds, Desmond "a good Irish name that" Mottram

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Date:     Tue, 9 Mar 93 7:10:14 EST
From: "Peter J. Burke" (FSAC-PMD) <pburke at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  [To: rianhard:  New Home Brewing Store in N.J.]

Please excuse if this is sent twice,
I don't know why it does that...


- ----- Forwarded message # 1:

Date:     Tue, 9 Mar 93 7:05:45 EST
From:     Peter J. Burke (FSAC-PMD)  <pburke at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
To:       rianhard at PICA.ARMY.MIL, wboyle at PICA.ARMY.MIL, wkoenig at PICA.ARMY.MIL,
          econner at PICA.ARMY.MIL
cc:       pburke at PICA.ARMY.MIL
Subject:  New Home Brewing Store in N.J.
Message-ID:  <9303090705.aa21707 at FSAC3.PICA.ARMY.MIL>

Greetings,

A new home brewing store opened in Cranford NJ a few days ago.
They don't have a credit card machine yet, but have mostly
everything else that Teaneck & Red Bank have.

The Brewmeister
115 N. Union Ave
Cranford, NJ 07016
(908) 709-9295

GSP south to Cranford Exit  (just past Union tolls)
This puts you on North Avenue (going towards Cranford)
At first light (gas station) make a right (Elizabeth St.)
At blinking light (next light) make a left  (North Union Ave)
You follow this road going over a small bridge and past a church.
It is in the center of town on the right side next to a
Hallmark-type store.

Mon, Tues, Wed:  12:30 - 8:00pm
Thurs: 12:30 - 9:00pm
Fri: 12:30 - 8:00pm
Sat: 10:00 - 6:00pm
Sun: 12:00 - 3:00pm

As you can see, mighty convinent hours.
The proprieter is the secratry of a local home brewing club
(They meet at Sandy Hook every month).
He plans on keeping a fresh rotating grain stock with
specials from different countries every month.

PROST !


- ----- End of forwarded messages

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Date:     Tue, 9 Mar 93 7:34:41 EST
From: Jpetty at PICA.ARMY.MIL
Subject:  Brew Supplies

The following may be of interest to HBD readers; I have no affiliation.

Red Bank Brewing Supply
Red Bank, N.J.
1-800-779-7507

In addition to a complete line of brewing supplies, They claim to have staff
who serve on advisory panels to commercial breweries and publications.  They
maintain an on site pilot brewery to insure quality of materials and offer
courses for brewers.  They specialize in hard to find and unusual equipment
and supplies as well as metal fabrication for custom brewing fixtures.
Their prices are very reasonable.

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Date: 09 Mar 93 08:12:27 EST
From: CHUCKM at PBN73.Prime.COM
Subject: weisse bier

Hi BrewFolk,
  I'm interested in peoples experiences brewing Bavarian Weisse Bier.  I have
read Warner's book and still have some questions.

  Re: Weisse beer yeast
      Wyeast 3056 in the only commercial weisse yeast I know of. Warner
      indicated in his book that some German brewers prime their Weisse biers
       with lager yeast and some do not. Does this mean that some are
       primed with the same yeast that they are fermented with? If yes,
       are any of these biers available in the US and is their yeast
       re-culturable.  In the Gadgets issue of Zymurgy, Warner was
       written up in the winner's circle section for Weisse Bier. His
       recipe said he used yeast cultured from a bottle of German Moy
       Weisse Bier. -- Has anyone ever seen this in the US?

   Re: Mashing
       Warner maintains that decoction is the only way to go and
       barely had two or three sentences about infusion.  Any comments?

Your replies will be greatly appreciated,
Chuckm at pbn73.prime.com

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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1993 08:40:04 +22306512 (CST)
From: dhholscl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (David Holsclaw)
Subject: Newbie Questions

Guys and Gals of the brewing world,

I starting brewing about six months and six batches ago, and I have several
questions that I am sure will make me look foolish but I would like to have
answers.

For the record I have Charlie P's book and just purchased Dave Miller's _The
Complete Handbook of Home Brewing_ so if you could point me towards chapters or
sections (that answer my questions) that I might have missed or not fully
understood at the time I read them, that would probably save bandwidth and make
everyone very happy.  :)

I have been adding specialty grains (crystal, chocolate, etc.) to my brews and
IMHO they are turning out great!! My question pertains to the purpose of the
specialty grains.  Do they simply impart a flavor to the beer?  I realize they
have little or no enzymes so 'no' conversion of the starches can take place
like in a real mash. Right?

My second question is about using flaked maize as an adjunct.  My wife likes
Miller Genuine Draft. I know, I know, I can see the flames coming already. I am
slowly converting her over to 'real' beer, but I aldo told her I would attempt
an American Lager with some corn in it.  Can I simply boil these little devils,
strain and add to the wort or do the starches provided by the maize also have
be coverted through a mash with malts containing enzymes?

If anyone has any extract recipes for this type of beer I would greatly
appreciate seeing them.

Thanks to all who have taken the time to read all of this and reply.

I have learned a lot from the collective wisdom of the net and wish you all
great beers.

- -- David Holsclaw
- -- dhholscl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu

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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1993 09:32:12 -0600
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: Sparge Times & water pH

 Frank Tutzauer <COMFRANK at ubvmsb.cc.buffalo.edu>

>So, how long should I make it?  The most convenient is to finish the
>sparge right as the wort on the stove is coming to a boil.  Is this
>reasonable?  

Whether its reasonable depends, of course, on how long it takes your stove to 
raise the wort to a boil 8-)  One of the brewers in my club starts heating the 
boiling kettle after its about 1/3 full, and by the time the last of the sparge 
is running into the kettle, it been boiling for 10-15 minutes.  His beers are 
consistently among the very best in the club.  This technique saves him maybe 45 
minutes per brewing session.  Not bad, eh?

>Is longer better (more sugars?), 

Yes

>or is shorter better (fewer tannins?)?

Yes

My favorite authority (Miller) says the sparge should take 45 minutes to an 
hour.  He says this gives a good balance between extraction and avoiding 
tannins.  It has worked well for me.  My wheat ale took about 1:15 -- my other 
beers work like yours -- I have to close the spigot to make the sparge take more 
time.  I insulate my lauter tun and keep a lid on it to keep it hot.  I'm using 
a grain bag in my bottling bucket, which I fitted with a false bottom made from 
the lid of the bottling bucket.  Keeping the grain bed hot makes controlling the 
runoff rate much easier -- it becomes a matter of throttling the thing down.  
I've changed my technique a bit since I made the wheat ale, so I'm expecting it 
to go better next time.

I have been acidifying my sparge water, but I'm not convinced it makes a 
difference, at least in higher-gravity, dark beers.  In the lighter beers (1040 
or less) I'm sure the effect would be more pronounced because there's less stuff 
in there to mask the tannins.  Your comments on Noonan's book gave me a big 
grin, but in his defense, he's writing mainly for commercial brewers (small 
scale and pilot plant operators), and the key in that game is batch-to-batch 
consistency, in the extreme.  What should you do?  Hmmmmm.  If you notice any 
kind of astringency in your beer, try acidifying your sparge water.  Astringency 
leaves a kind of dry, chalky feeling in your mouth.  The other thing you might 
try is testing the pH of the last cup of your runoff.  If the pH is above 5.5, 
try acidifying.  The other thing to keep in mind is that all this depends on the 
grains you use.  Dark, roasty malts tend to make the mash more acidic than light 
malts.  If you want to experiment with your techniques, make measurements, and 
write down what you do, just as they taught you in chemistry lab 8-)

	t

=============================================================================
Tom Leith                           InterNet:   trl at wuerl.WUstl.EDU
4434 Dewey Ave.                   CompuServe:   70441,3536
St. Louis, Missouri  63116
                                                "Tho' I could not caution all
314/362-6965 - Office                            I still might warn a few:
314/362-6971 - Office Fax                        Don't lend your hand
314/481-2512 - Home + Infernal Machine           to raise no flag
                                                 atop no Ship of Fools"
=============================================================================




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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 93 10:34:12 EST
From: dipalma at banshee.sw.stratus.com (James Dipalma)
Subject: re: Older, but not sweeter / Cloudy


Hi All,

   In HBD#1093, Norm Pyle writes:

>The first problem I've had from my very first brews.  It involves sweetness,
>or a lack thereof.  As my beers age, they seem to lose the sweetness they had
>when they were younger.  I'm comparing the flavor profile from a 1-month old
>brew to a 3-month old brew (since bottling).  This has happened with extract
>brews, partial mashes, and all-grain'ers.  I _really_ like my beers when they
>are young, but as they age, I like them less and less.  The hop bitterness
>starts to overpower them, as the sweetness fades.
>...
>So, this sounds like an infection problem, right?
>Bacteria/wild yeasts eating up the "unfermentables", etc. etc.  Well, none of
>my brews have ever experienced gushing.

   Well, *something* is reducing the complex sugars after bottling, and
since you are not getting gushers, it doesn't seem likely that it's
bacteria.  My guess would be that you are using a highly attenuative yeast.
What strain of yeast are you using?  Also, if you are reusing yeast across
several batches, the strain will become noticeably more attenuative after
a few batches.

>Second problem:  my all-grain brews (3 to date) are, without exception,
>cloudy.  I do a simple single-stage infusion at 150-158F.  I've used American
>and British 2-row
>...
>Do I need to a protein rest?

   Could you provide a little more detail, Norm?  Is the beer cloudy at
room temperature, or does it become cloudy after the beer is chilled?
If it's cloudy at room temperature, the problem is probably not excess
protein, but a starch haze.  A too-fine crush of the malt results in
excessive flour and pulverizing of the husks, which leads to poor
filtration during sparging.  Check your crush, and make sure the husks are
intact or nearly so.
   If the beer is clear at room temperature but becomes cloudy when chilled,
you have chill haze (don't worry, it's not contagious :-)).  Chill haze is 
a reaction between long chain proteins and tannins in the beer.  There are
many ways to treat this problem.  A protein rest of 115F-120F for 30 minutes
will reduce the long chain proteins that cause chill haze, however, this
is generally not necessary with highly modified British 2-row malt.  
Fining with 1 teaspoon of Irish moss 30 minutes before the end of the boil
will help settle out the proteins.  You could also fine with polyclar at
the end of secondary fermenatation, just before bottling.  Polyclar helps
to settle out the tannins that react with proteins to cause chill haze.

***********************************************************

   Also in HBD#1093, Steve Zabarnick writes:

>I started homebrewing two months ago and have had two out of
>three batches go sour. The first batch was the only not to
>bad. For all batches I used a plastic bucket primary

   This suggests to me that you may have scratched the primary while
cleaning it after your first batch.  Once a plastic fermenter is
scratched, it becomes very difficult to sanitize properly.  Check
your primary carefully for scratches, and if there are some,
replace it.

***********************************************************

   Frank Tutzauer writes about his first all grain batch:

   First, let me congratulate you on joining the ranks of the snobbish
elite :-) :-) (smileys included for the humor impaired)

>First, in yesterday's digest, Joe Stone asks how long the
>sparge should take.  I've got the same question.  Miller, people in my club,
>and lots of other folks talk about the sparge slowing to a trickle.  Mine
>didn't.  It did slow a little, but never to a trickle.  If I'd've wanted to, I
>could have run it out like gangbusters. 

   If your runoff slows to a trickle when the tap is wide open and the tun
full of water, this is a problem, the mash is starting to set.
   I experimented with runoff rates for a while trying to determine the
optimal rate.  I started running off about 1 gal/15 minutes, or 90 minutes
for 6 gallons, and carefully measured and recorded my extraction rate.
Gradually, I sped this up until I got to 1 gal/8 minutes, or just over
45 minutes for 6 gallons.  At rates higher than this, my extraction began
to drop.  Of course, this is based on my brewing environment (geometry of
my tun, my procedures, etc.), your mileage may and probably will vary. 
Don't be afraid to experiment.

>Is longer better (more sugars?), or is shorter better (fewer
>tannins?)?

   I think tannin extraction is more a function of pH and the amount of
sparge water used, rather than the runoff rate.  As sparge water is
added, sugars are extracted, and the pH of the mash becomes more alkaline.
Eventually, you get to the point where more tannin than sugar is being
extracted, you want to stop before this occurs.  So, sparge at the fastest
rate possible without extraction dropping off, and use both your hydrometer
and your palate to determine when to stop.  I start tasting the runoff
and monitoring the gravity as I get close to 6 gallons collected.  For my
setup, when the gravity gets to ~1.010 the taste of tannin first becomes
noticeable, and this is when I stop sparging.

>Second, what's the deal on acidifying the mash?  Miller says to get the pH to
>5.0 to 5.5.  I checked right after doughing in, and it was like maybe 6.3.
>...What should I do in the future?

   The amylase enzyme works well at the pH range Miller recommends.  Adding
a small amount of gypsum to the mash should do the trick.

>Finally, should I acidify the sparge water?

   This question should be a FAQ, if it isn't already.  Unless you have 
an extreme water situation, this should not be necessary.  In my case, I
have a private well with extremely hard water.  I had an astrigency problem
with my beers because the pH of the mash was getting too alkaline during
sparging.  Acidifying the sparge water helped me, but I'd guess it's not
necessary in your case, judging by the pH of your mash after doughing in.

   Now that I've answered your questions, could you answer one for me?

>I got about 28 points a pound.

>but the sparge
>took place while the rest of the runoff was heating up on the stove

   How are you measuring your extraction rating with part of the wort on
the stove, and part of it still coming out of the tun?


                                  Cheers,
                                     Jim

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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 93 08:01:34 -0800
From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard Childers)
Subject: Plastic Primaries & Marin Brewery Directions


"Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 12:01:44 -0500
 From: steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil (Steve Zabarnick)
 Subject: Recurring infections

"I started homebrewing two months ago and have had two out of
 three batches go sour. The first batch was the only not to
 bad. For all batches I used a plastic bucket primary and a 
 glass carboy secondary."

It is a truism, I have been told, that plastic is hard to sanitize,
especially inside any scratches in the inside surface. It has been
a major effort, after every brewing session, to _not_ place all of
my paraphernalia inside my plastic mega-container, which naturally
would hold everything very nicely. But I've resisted the temptation.

Despite this, I _still_ don't use the plastic vat for anything but
short periods of exposure, and often leave a powerful bleach solution
within it with the lid on tight, for weeks, when not in use. I use it
as a temporary container for inducing hot breaks before racking, as
well as an intermediate holding place while adding corn sugar before
bottling, but _never_ for long periods of time ( IE, over an hour ).


"Any ideas on what I am doing wrong? I'm getting very 
 frustrated! Should I throw out my plastic primary and get 
 another glass carboy?"

Don't throw it out but _do_ invest in a second glass carboy, it's not
a waste of money, IMHO.


"Date: Mon, 8 Mar 93 09:33:33 -0800
 From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard Childers)
 Subject: Marin, Bicycles, and the Marin Brewery

"The route is pretty straightforward ... down to Sausalito, along the bike
 path, under 101, across Blithedale in Mill Valley, right at the school, then
 along Lomita to 101, right, onto the bike path paralleling 101, ..."
                      ^^^^^

Um, that was a left, FEI.


- -- richard

     "It is obligatory, within the limits of capability, to commend the
      good and forbid evil."     _Kitab_Adab_al-Muridin_, by Suhrawardi

                richard childers          pascal at netcom.com

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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 93 08:31:14 MST
From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
Subject: Celis Substitute?

Michael Howe reports that he hasn't seen Celis White in Colorado.  Sorry,
Michael but I haven't seen it here yet, nor have I even tasted it, but I have
a suggestion.  Try Sunshine Wheat by the New Belgium Brewery in Fort Collins.
This is the first wheat beer I've ever truthfully enjoyed.  It is spiced in
the Belgian tradition with coriander and orange peel, as CW is reported to
be.  It is just a wonderful, full bodied wheat beer with some very
interesting flavor components.  I'd like to try CW as a comparison, but until
I find in our neck of the woods, SW will do just fine.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Tue, 9 Mar 93 10:40 CST
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Raw Sugar

 
 >Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)
 >Arf repeated it in 1090, as though it was news.  In
 1091 Jeff Frane said "Jack is right".  Is it a fact yet?)
 
 That was established in the first sentance.
 
 > Some questions: since molasses is a by-product of the refining process,
 what's the difference between a solution of turbinado and a solution
 of refined white sugar with the appropriate amount of molasses?
 
 Not much.
 
 >Could a chemist tell the difference?  Could a yeast cell?
 
 Not likely.
 
 Let me caution you that the terms used in the industry are a lot like those 
 in any other, i.e. they mean different things to different people.  I am not 
 an expert on sugar but while shooting "Orchids vs Hamburgers", we spent a day 
 filming at a sugar refinery in Costa Rica and everything coming out of the 
 centrifuge (turbine?) was called turbinado.  Raw suguar usually means the 
 evaporated and crystalized juice from the cane crusher.  It can also mean the 
 output of the centrifuge after most of the molasses has been removed or even 
 a fairly light colored sugar with all the molasses removed.  It is also the 
 trade name for a Yuppie product that has nothing to do with anything.
 
 What this refinery called raw sugar were kilo sized blocks in the shape of 
 truncated cones about 5 in in dimater at the bottom.  These are available 
 everywhere in Central America and used in a popular drink called agua dulce.  
 One drops the block in boiling water and pulls it out when the water is 
 appropriately sweet and it is served like tea, but of course in a glass.
 
 We brought one of these home in 1985 and needless to say, have most of it 
 still intact.  As a result of this thread, I bashed it up with a hammer and 
 ran it through a MM and can now use it in tea.
 
 Now if Jeff will give us the nod, we can move on and wind up laser lables.
 
 >From: pyle at intellistor.com (Norm Pyle)
 
 >Second problem:  my all-grain brews (3 to date) are, without exception,
 cloudy. 
 
 Your process description leaves out any information about fermenting 
 procedure.  Given time, I have never made a beer that would not clear. I do 
 however, always use secondary fermentation and highly recommend it as SOP for 
 high quality beer.
 
 How long is your primary?
 How long is your secondary?
 
 What kind of yeast are you using?
 
 js
 
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1094, 03/10/93