FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Filtration, pt 2 of 2 (Jim Busch)
  Wort chiller using dryice (Scott Knowles                       )
  APOLOGY (Jack Schmidling)
  Re: Sanitizing Chemicals (Sherman Gregory)
  Cleaning plastic buckets (Rich Lenihan)
  Re: Celis White Recipe ("Tom Childers")
  cooker summary available soon... (Todd M. Williams)
  Wet Dream (Garrett Hildebrand)
  re: Older, but not sweeter (Peter Maxwell)
  Yeast Slant ?? / Mashed stout / Kegs (Lee Menegoni)
  Yeast strain ?? (Lee Menegoni)
  Re: Celis Substitute? (Jeff Benjamin)
  Re:  Powdered Sugur (Eric M. Mrozek)
  Weat beers (Jeff Frane)
  All-Grain Process ("Joe Stone")
  Supplies in Memphis, YN (William James Harrison)
  beer & food fest (GC-HSI) <rnapholz at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  cider (KLIGERMAN)
  How do I build & use a slotted copperpipe manifold? (ESF01)
  Slotted Copper ("Rad Equipment")
  Sanitizer Utilization ("John DeCarlo")
  Re: Sanitizer ("John DeCarlo")
  Ninkasi - Brewing an Ancient Beer (Don Sharp  11-Mar-1993 1401)
  irish moss/lager starters/sanitizers/non-alc beers/non-stop ferment/rests/zests (korz)
  Hallertauer porters (Rob Bradley)
  A few observations regarding cleaners and sterilizing agents. (kurka)
  Two Seperate Questions on: Kegging and Bitterness (Richard Saunders)
  RIMS Summary (David Klein)
  Cleaning plastic pails (WESTEMEIER)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 12:12:38 EST
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Filtration, pt 2 of 2

Filter post, pt 2......

So, armed with this information, I called The Filter Store and asked 
about coarse yeast filters. They informed me of a 5 micron and a 1
polypro 99.9% efficient filter.  I ask about adaptability  to my whole
house filter and they agree that it is compatable. I order the 5 micron 
filter.  I need to build the connectors.
The filter connects  are 3/4" female NPT. So, I buy 2 3/4" male to 1/2"
sweat copper connectors, and two 1/2" sweat to 
1/4" thread bushings and two 1/4" threaded hose barbs.  Soldering these 
together, and screwing in the hose barbs results in a solid 3/16" id
hose to 3/4" filter union. 
I buy a $13 cheapo whole house filter from Hechingers, and my cartridge
arrives.  I filter the still beer through the 5 micron filter after sanitizing 
the kegs with Iodophor and the filter with Vigilquat.  I push lots of hot water 
through the filter to rinse prior to use.  
The beer is noticably clear, with some haze remaining but no real detectable 
yeast cloudiness.  The beer vastly improved in flavor.  The cartridge was quite
discolored, due to lots of yeast captured.  I back flush with hot water and 
soak overnight in a caustic solution.  The filter is stored in a ziploc bag
containing water and a sanitizer of your choice.  For my first filtering, I 
only filtered 10 gallons, so I do not know the volume limitations of 
this filter.  It is claimed to filter 150 -250 gallons of beer, but I
suspect that with good cleaning it will last longer.

Conclusion:
I am quite satisfied with my 5 micron filter.  It did what I wanted,
removed the yeast, resulting in a polished product.  I am quite sure that
it would have been crystal clear with a .5 micron unit, but I suspect
that flavor and head retention would have suffered.  Note that a 5 micron
filter is not a sterile filter and as such the brewer needs to have a 
good grasp on on proper sanitation techniques, but I suspect those of us 
using kegs and filters already have a good feel for sanitation. 
Good brewing,

Jim Busch

PS: my Altbier was made using all Liberty hop pellets.  The IBU was 
calculated to be
around 40, but the bitterness perceptions to me are much less.  This hop has an
alpha of 4.0 and is the latest american attempt to produce domestically a hop 
with characteritics of Hallertau.  I detect a grassy aroma from this hop, but 
at times it does appear to remind me of a hallertau essence.  

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Date:    Wed, 10 Mar 93 12:43 EST
From: Scott Knowles <NECHO%NCSUMVS.BITNET at ncsuvm.cc.ncsu.edu>
Subject: Wort chiller using dryice

BREWERS,
  The fellas and I were bottling a batch of winter Lager
the other evening, and talk turned (as it will) to the Next Batch.
We hit apon an idea that is simple, straightforward, amd seemingly
foolproof; why not cool a hot wort with dry ice?  Think about it:
No wort-chiller hardware, no sink full of icecubes, no floating
the wort kettle in the cold swimmimg pool out in the back yard.
Just cold wort, fast.

  Has anyone tried this?  Does it make sense?  Seems to to me, but
then we were relaxing and having a homebrew at the time.
  In my lab at work, dry ice is available and free. (It can't be
recycled...)  I'm sure I could add enuf to the kettle to drop the wort
temperature 75 degrees C in maybe two minutes.  Follow this with
vigorous stirring to re-oxygenate the wort, then pitch.

  I invite comments and criticisms on this idea.  Tell me now,
before we burn $20 worth of grain and yeast trying it.
  If this works out, we plan to go to extremes and cool
the  _next batch_  with liquid nitrogen...

Scott Knowles         * I love beer.  Is that such a crime? *
<nEcho at NCSUMVS>


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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 11:46 CST
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: APOLOGY

 
 >From: Sandy Cockerham <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L at LILLY.COM>
 >Subject: WOMEN,BEER,AND THE HBD
 
 >WHILE I AM ON MY SOAPBOX...I AM INSULTED BY JACK (AND OTHERS) USE OF THE 
 TERM 'WET DREAM' IN THIS DIGEST. IT IS UNCALLED FOR AND IS TASTELESS IN THIS 
 FORUM.
 
 I have already apologized both publicly and privately for that but you 
 aparently missed it and I hereby extend the apology personally to you.
 
 Having said that, it reminds me a bit of the time I flamed someone for using 
 the term "anal" and got flamed back en masse for my ignorance of classical 
 psychoanalysis and Freud.
 
 I don't claim Freud as the source for this one but I do think you'al are 
 being a bit harsh.  "Tasteless and uncalled for" are a far cry from 
 "insulting".   I may be tasteless but I would never intentionally insult a 
 stranger.
 
 >From: joseph at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
 >Subject: Peracetic acid; sodium hydroxide
 
 >In a similar vein, I just tried using sodium hydroxide (lye; caustic
 soda) to clean some hoses.  All I can say is, WOW.
  
 It is a powerful saponifier, i.e. it turns grease into soap and is used by 
 lots of commercial brewers for cleaning kegs.  I do not know to what extent 
 it is bacteriacidal but it cleans very well.
 
 >I added about 1 oz of a saturated, filtered solution of sodium hydroxide
 (about 1 part NaOH to 2 parts water) to 3-4 inches of warm water in my
 sink......
 
 For us unwashed masses.... it is also known as Draino.  
 A teaspoon in a cup of water will do the trick.
 
 >From: dipalma at banshee.sw.stratus.com (James Dipalma)
  
 >This suggests to me that you may have scratched the primary while
 cleaning it after your first batch.  Once a plastic fermenter is
 scratched, it becomes very difficult to sanitize properly.  Check
 your primary carefully for scratches, and if there are some,
 replace it.
 
 Far be it for me to question the wisdom of the ages but I have (had) used the 
 same plastic primary since the early 70s and have not had an infected beer 
 since a few months after I started to read the Digest.  I attribute the 
 record to one or both of two procedure changes.
 
 Number one on the hit list was Red Star Yeast, contamination is built in at 
 no extra cost.  You also need to find out who actually produced the yeast you 
 use to make sure it is not one of the many brands of re-packaged Red Star.
 
 Number two was to ignore the usual instructions for making a sanitizing 
 solution from bleach, i.e. 1 oz bleach to the gal or even 5 gallons of water.
 
 After cleaning the fermenter with a sponge and Ivory, I rinse it and put in 
 about a cup of bleach.  I then put on the lid with a stopper in the hole for 
 the air lock and slosh it around thoroughy and set it aside till the next 
 use.  Next time I need it, I slosh it around again, dump out the bleach and 
 rinse it carefully.  I guarantee, there is no scratch deep enough to evade 
 this treatment.
 
 If you use iodine, I would suggest the same procedure with maybe an oz of 
 juice to a cup of water.
 
 I now use my 10 gal mash kettle for primary and much prefer this because I 
 can avoid all chemicals by simply boiling some water in it to sterilize it.
 
 
 js
 

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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1993 10:05:04 -0800
From: sherman at qualcomm.com (Sherman Gregory)
Subject: Re: Sanitizing Chemicals

I tried sending this directly to u4imdmre at cpc41.cpc.usace.army.mil, but I
got a "Host unknown" bounce.  So I post.

I have always used unsented Clorox bleach at 2 fl.oz./5gal to sanatize HDPE
buckets. Contact times anywhere from 15min to 1 week.  Then rinse with tap
water.  I often throw all of the equipment I need in the bucket for a
while, then empty everything out and rinse.  Then use th bucket for priming
or fermenting.  Never had any infections (knock on wood) or any damage to
the plastic.  The only problems I have had with bleach is leaving stainless
steel (or most any other metal) in it for more than a half hour is can
cause oxydation.

I don't know about using Tide though.  I use Tide for a lot of things
(including laundry, of all things), but not for my brew equipment.  For
that I use Cascade automatic dishwashing detergent.  I have heard that that
will not kill the head retention.

     Sherman




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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 13:08:18 EST
From: rich at bedford.progress.COM (Rich Lenihan)
Subject: Cleaning plastic buckets


One thing that will work for getting critters that are hiding in the 
cracks of plastic buckets is boiling water.  I have an old plastic
primary that has since been retired to bottling bucket.  Before brewing
I preboil 7+ gallons of water and transfer it to the plastic bucket.
This makes the bucket very hot.  Try this before you attack it with
chemicals.  

I then use a dilute bleach (1 tbsp/gal) for 15 minutes to sanitize
before bottling.  I do not recommend storing high concentrations of
bleach in plastic for any length of time.  The plastic will absorb the
chlorine and even give off an odor of chlorine.  Trust me.  I *know*.

 -Rich

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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 11:05:06 PST
From: "Tom Childers" <TCHILDER at us.oracle.com>
Subject: Re: Celis White Recipe


In HBD 1086, Alan Derr asked about a recipe for Celis White...
 
I've made three extract-based batches of Belgian ale over the last few
months, refining the recipe towards my personal preferences.  A few weeks
ago, I finally got to taste Celis White, and (surprise!) my latest batch
is very similar to Celis.
 
Basically, just use Papazian's "Who's In The Garden Grand Cru" recipe,
reduce the malt and honey a bit, and slightly bump up the hops.
 
  "Tamalpais Wit"  ("tam-ul-PIE-us vit", or "der schlafen dame weiss"
                    for you who don't speak coastal Miwok and Belgian)
 
  4-3/4 lbs light dried malt extract (or 5-1/2 lbs light malt syrup)
  2-1/4 lbs orange blossom (or other light) honey
  1 oz Hallertauer (boiling), 6 HBU
  1/2 oz Hallertauer (flavor)
  1/2 oz Hallertauer (aroma
  1-1/2 oz freshly crushed coriander seeds
  1/2 oz dried orange peel
  Wyeast #1214 Belgian ale yeast
 
Papazian suggests a 1-1/2 gallon boil, but I've been doing full 5-gallon
boils with great success.  After 45 minutes, add the flavoring hops and half
of the coriander; after 55 minutes add aroma hops, remaining coriander and
orange peel for the last 5 minutes.  Ferment at 72 degrees F.
 
I pitch the yeast (in a 1-qt starter) at about 78 degrees F to get the
primary fermentation going quickly.  This beer is ready to prime and bottle
after about 10 days.  The classic Belgian ale characteristics really come
through when you ferment this ale at a slightly warm temperature, as others
have pointed out in earlier digests.
 
Since Celis White is made with wheat malt, I'm going to start experimenting
with replacing some of the malt extract with wheat extract...
 -tdc


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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 14:41:15 CST
From: todd at gold.rtsg.mot.com (Todd M. Williams)
Subject: cooker summary available soon...

Greetings All,

In HBD 1090 I spouted off and offered the following......
	
>Last month I groveled in the following manner...
  >SNIP<
>>What I want to do is convert my cajun cooker from a propane
>>unit into a natural gas unit.  Can I do this??  If so, does anyone
>>know what is involved?  How much it might cost??  Where to get parts???

>I am in the process of preparing a summary and will send it to whoever
>wants it.  I guess this thread was covered over the summer (before I
>started reading HBD) so I won't waste any more bandwidth posting the whole
>summary.  So if you want it, send email to the address below, with a subject
>of "cooker summary", and I will forward it to you.

	Well, guess what...I received over 40 requests.  I guess that means
I should just go ahead and post it.  However I am still compiling data.
I want to include info from a couple of vendors.  The reason for speaking
with vendors is that the King Kooker company does _not_ sell any burners
that they recommend for indoor use.  (thanks Mike O'Brian at pico-Brewing
Systems in Ypsilanti,MI).  I guess the two major concerns are generation
of heat and exhaust gasses, and depletion of oxygen.  I guess 100K+ BTU
might be a bit much for indoor use.  Anyway the _complete_ summary will
be posted next week.  Sorry it's taking so long. (10 days were spent
visiting 18 of CA's finest brewpubs :-D hey gak, did you get that mug yet?)

	I will post the cooker summary ASAP....

Todd Williams
Downers Grove, IL.

Moderation sir, aye, moderation is my rule.  9 or 10 is reasonable
refreshment, but after that it's apt to degenerate into drinking

  /--------------------------------------------------------------------------\
 / -rwxr-xr-x   1 todd      employer  69   Feb 10 1958  OPINIONS              \
 \ lrwxrwxrwx   1 employer  other     9    Jan 01 1970  OPINIONS -> /dev/null /
  \--------------------------------------------------------------------------/


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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 11:10:54 PST
From: mdcsc!gdh at uunet.UU.NET (Garrett Hildebrand)
Subject: Wet Dream

In HBD 1094 Sandy C. makes the comment,

>WHILE I AM ON MY SOAPBOX...I AM INSULTED BY JACK (AND OTHERS) USE OF
THE TERM
>'WET DREAM' IN THIS DIGEST. IT IS UNCALLED FOR AND IS TASTELESS IN
THIS FORUM.
>THIS DIGEST IS TO HELP US BREW BETTER BEERS, AND TO ENHANCE BEER
APPRECIATION.
> ...NOT TO BE INSULTING.....
>FLAME AWAY, I DON'T CARE!!

I seriously doubt that Jack (or others) are trying to insult you or
anybody
else with this term. I certainly am not bothered by it. This is not
foul
language, nor does it demean the female readers, as would commenting
that
they sometimes get "on the rag," which no one, of course, has done.

gdh

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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1993 13:46:48 -0800 (PST)
From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
Subject:  re: Older, but not sweeter

Jim Dipalma writes:

> What strain of yeast are you using?  Also, if you are reusing yeast across
> several batches, the strain will become noticeably more attenuative after
> a few batches.

Doesn't this depend on the yeast?  I seem to remember reading that 1056 is
subject to "attenuative mutation" but that 1098 doesn't change much at all.
Can anybody expand on this?

	Peter

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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 16:49:28 EST
From: Lee Menegoni <necis!lmenegon at transfer.stratus.com>
Subject: Yeast Slant ?? / Mashed stout / Kegs

I have just been given a slant of 
I have been given a slant of Weinstephan 3407 yeast.  What information do 
people have on this variety.  What temp should I ferment / lager, what are
its flavor charecteristics, is it stable for reculturing?  Please post
responses to HBD or send to lmenegon at necis.ma.nec.com

Re infusion mashed stout:
I do not mash the dark grains with pale malt, it makes the iodine test 
nearly impossible to read and the acidity of the highly kilned malts may
over acidify the mash.  I steep the grains and add them to the mash kettle
at mash out.

Re keg sanitation:
I fill my keg with water and add acouple Tbs of Bead Brite . I use a golf
tee or nail to depress the spring loaded valves of the liquid out and tilt
the keg until a little of the sanitizer solution drips out.  i repeat this
for the gas in connection too.  I then top off the keg close it shake it
ing water.  Drain rinse with some more boiling water. Drain. Finally I add 
1 quart of boilning water apply CO2 and blow the water out thru your tap.
Your keg should now be sanitized , its liquid out tube clean and be filled
with CO2 so oxidation should be minimized when you rack in the brew.

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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 17:05:39 EST
From: Lee Menegoni <necis!lmenegon at transfer.stratus.com>
Subject: Yeast strain ??

 requeI
I
I requested information on a slant i recently recieved the yeast type
is Weinstphan 3470 not 3407.  What do people know about it.  The slant
was cultured from a large amount of slurry out of the secondary  from
a west coast breew pub.
Please  post responses to the HBD or to lmenegon at necis.ma.nec.com
- -- 

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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 15:41:48 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Celis Substitute?

Norm Pyle writes:

> Try Sunshine Wheat by the New Belgium Brewery in Fort Collins.
> This is the first wheat beer I've ever truthfully enjoyed.  It is spiced in
> the Belgian tradition with coriander and orange peel

Just so someone isn't disappointed -- not all Sunshine Wheat is done in
the White beer style.  In fact, most is just an American pale ale-style
wheat similar to that done by other micros.  The White-spiced bottles of
Sunshine Wheat were from a special batch that was one-time only, as far
as I know.  (Apologies to you non-Colorado folks who don't have access
to either version.  I guess you'll just have to come for a visit :-).

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at hpfcla.fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 14:58:18 PST
From: mrozek at gandalf.etdesg.TRW.COM (Eric M. Mrozek)
Subject: Re:  Powdered Sugur

Dear Mr. Powdered Sugur,

(sorry I don't remember your name; I deleted the HBD from last week with your 
response in it. 8^o

Yes, the powdered sugur with the cornstarch is often called confectioner's 
sugur, but not always (I checked at the grocery store last night).  I originally
pointed out the cornstarch issue so that people wouldn't blindly buy powdered
sugur and end up with the cornstarch version.  

By the way, I mis-quoted the sugur/cornstarch ratio.  It's not 70%/30%, but
rather 97%/3%.

Eric

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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 1993 16:57:37 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Weat beers

Having read Eric Warner's book (good beginning), Chuck had some
questions about weizen yeasThe Yeast Culture Kit Co. (I think that name
is right) has an authentic weizenbier yeast strain you might want to
track down; unfortunately, they are no longer selling retail so it will
take some sniffing.  But I believe you will have better results with
that than with the Other wheat beer strain, for the time being.

I don't believe any of the wheat beers currently imported fm Germany use
the fermentaion strain in bottling, and in any case most have been
pasteurized.  The strain Warner used was brought back from Germany.  (By
the way, I was on the panel in Milwaukee that awarded his blue ribbon
and I vouch for the fact that the man knows _exactly_ what he's talking
about in regard to weizens.)  In the fall, Admiralty Distributing, here
in Portland, will be imported Schneiderbrau, which Warner mentionsand
the importer assures me the fermentation strain and bottling strain are
the same (he just got back from a visit).  You certainly can't ask for a
more authentic yeast than that!

Although I view some claims about decoction mashes with considerable
skepticism, I would certainly take Warner at his word!

- --Jeff


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Date: Wed, 10 Mar 93 19:15:26 PST
From: "Joe Stone" <JSTONE at SJEVM5.VNET.IBM.COM>
Subject: All-Grain Process

Let me try it this way.  If anyone out there feels that they have a "process"
for use with a mash-lauter/boiling vessel from the Brewer's Warehouse in
Seattle or from Precision Brewing Systems in Staten Island would you please
email it to me.  Thanks.

Joe

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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 1993 08:58:16 -0500
From: William James Harrison <harriw3 at rpi.edu>
Subject: Supplies in Memphis, YN


That is Memphis TN, USA.  I am moving sonn and would like to know
if there are any homebrew shops in that area or if I will have to go 
through mail order distributors.  Any help with this and/or names of
brew pubs in that neck of the woods is greatly appriciated.

On another note, I recently started a batch of Wyeast (American) for
reculturing and I am curious on how many recultures can be achieved
before mutation/contanmination.  (BTW - I used a reculturing technique
recently posted on the HBD, maybe 2 weeks ago)

Jim

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Date:     Thu, 11 Mar 93 11:16:01 EST
From: "Robert J. Napholz" (GC-HSI) <rnapholz at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  beer & food fest


Hello all
   I'm looking for extra tickets for the beer & food fest.  at  South Street
   Sea Port (New York) on March 15. If you have any extra tickets please 
   call me.
     Thanks Rob N.
     work 201 724 7583
     home 908 850 4204



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Date: 11 Mar 1993 09:27:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: KLIGERMAN at herlvx.rtpnc.epa.gov
Subject: cider

In October I made an apple cider and thanks to the advice on the HBD,
I added sugar water after a few months and it cleared very well with 
a gravity of about 0.992  down from 1.054.  I would like to bottle it
as a sparkling cider.  Should I wait longer or bottle it with about 3/4
cup of sugar now and let it age in the bottle?  Should I continue to let
it age in the carboy, or will I endanger killing the yeast.  I used
Whitbread dry ale yeast.  Thanks.

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Date: 11 Mar 93 11:54:11 EST
From: ESF01%ALBNYDH2.bitnet at UACSC2.ALBANY.EDU
Subject: How do I build & use a slotted copperpipe manifold?

Hello HBD'ers,

    I have a 4.50 gallon Gott Picnic Cooler that I'd like to use as
a mash / lauter-tun for partial mashes.  My question concerns the
different false bottoms one uses in the bottom of the cooler.
How do you build a Phil's Phalse bottom, a screen type false bottom and
a slotted copperpipe manifold?  How do you use each type?

    Can I use two 4 gallon stock pots for boiling the extract instead
of one 8 gallon stock pot?

***************************************************************
**   Ed Frommer -  BPSM  Vital Records  Networking Systems   **
**   733 Broadway  Albany, NY  12237    Phone:(518)474-5245  **
***************************************************************

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Date: 11 Mar 1993 10:08:30 U
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Slotted Copper

Subject:  Slotted Copper                        Time:8:39 AM     Date:3/11/93
According to Mr. Bliss on slotted copper manifolds:

>If you try to slow it down, you're only draining wort through the
>slots nearest the outlet.

My manifold has about 10' of 1/2" pipe overall with slots every 1/4",
everywhere. It exits the tun and connects to a 5/8" hose which has a tubing
clamp across it which controls the flow. I sparge by running the water onto the
top of the grain bed allowing an inch or more of standing water to cover the
bed. I then drain at a rate which gets me about 10 gallons of wort in an hour,
keeping the inch of water on the grain bed until I'm within a gallon or so of
my desired total. Then I shut off the sparge water and drain the bed dry. I
typically get a yield of 31 or 32. On my last batch, 14 gallons of mild, I got
35!

I don't see how I could be getting these numbers if I wasn't getting good
coverage of the sparge flow through the grain bed. Nor do I see why restricting
the flow out of the manifold would have the effect described by Brian.

RW...

Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61)
UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / 474-8126


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 13:38:06 EST
From: "John DeCarlo" <jad at pegasus.mitre.org>
Subject: Sanitizer Utilization

>From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)

>>From: Jay Hersh <hersh at expo.lcs.mit.edu>

>>is this right, 1 oz to 1 gal.?? That is 10 times the amount recommended
>>for usage. If this is indeed correct does this test really tell us 
>>anything since the concentrations are an order of magnitude above what 
>>people normally use??

>>hoping that was a typo....

>No typo.  I also used bleach neat or at least 2:1 when I used it.  It is 
>all relative and I find the long contact times discomforting.  For example,
>unless one uses 5 gallons of sanitizer in a 5 gallon keg, how can one ever 
>be sure of a one minute contact time?  If used at higher concentrations, 
>one can simply slosh a small amount around for a minute and get a more 
>effective sanitization than doing the same with a small amount at the 
>recommended concentration.

I didn't see any definitive comment on this while I tried to find some 
quotes from microbiologist acquaintances.  But, I didn't want to leave it 
alone.

My information is that sloshing "a small amount around for a minute", no 
matter how high the concentration, is generally ineffective for 
sanitization.

That is why people use 5 gallons of sanitizer in a 5 gallon container, 
because "sloshing" doesn't work well.  Of course, those of us who use 
bleach use the 1-3 tablespoons of chlorine bleach in 5 gallons of water as 
our 5 gallons of sanitizer.  It may take 15 minutes to effectively 
sanitize, but at least it does a good job of that.

>As rinse water is not a problem around here, I don't mind more thorough
>rinsing and it is still far less than I had to do with bleach.

Of course, rinsing is only a problem with bleach if you use so much that it 
doesn't quickly evaporate.  When you use the amount mentioned above and 
then empty all 5 gallons of sanitizer out, you are left with a few drops of 
water that have at most 200 ppm of bleach in them.  The little bleach left 
in those few drops evaporates very quickly and doesn't require any rinsing 
of any sort.

It clouds the issue because some people are able to "sanitize" with tap 
water and not get infections, so even if you use a not-very-effective 
method like sloshing pure bleach around for a minute, you might not get bit 
by an infection.

Fidonet: 1:109/131   Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org

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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 13:41:55 EST
From: "John DeCarlo" <jad at pegasus.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Sanitizer

>From: Richard Stueven <gak at wrs.com>

>>From: korz at iepubj.att.com
>>
>>Personally, I'm trying to move away from Chlorine as a sanitizer from a
>>environmental point of view.

>I'm no biologist either, but how's this:  if you have the means to
>generate and manage it, wouldn't live steam make a reasonable and
>"green" sanitizing agent?  Of course, it's just as nasty to, say, human
>skin as it is to nasty-bugs, but like I said, you'd need some way to
>manage it.

As others have mentioned, many commercial breweries use steam to sanitize.  
I remember that the Old Dominion Brewery here in VA didn't get that in the 
plans or something, and it cost them something like an extra $60,000 or 
more to get the steam piped ten or twenty feet to the vessels to be cleaned.

OTOH, I have seen ads for used steam cleaning apparatus for under $3,000 in 
my local newspaper.

I say go for it!

Fidonet: 1:109/131   Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org

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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 14:00:34 EST
From: Don Sharp 11-Mar-1993 1401 <sharp at rumor.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Ninkasi - Brewing an Ancient Beer

Not TOO long ago someone posted a note here about having scanned images of a 
magazine article about an archaeologocal study of brewing methods in ancient 
Mesopotamia.  Well, I contacted that person (although I've lost your 
name/address, sorry!), and after some amount of laborious tedium with image 
format conversions, spell checking and such, I converted those scanned images 
into a text file.  It's about 450 lines long, so I hesitate to post it to this 
digest unless I have some reason to think it would be valued.

Here's the lead paragraph of the article:

  Did beer come before bread? To answer the question scholars helped
  concoct a Mesopotamian brew from a 3,800-year-old recipe etched in
  clay.  By Solomon H. Katz and Fritz Maytag.

If this sounds interesting why not send me mail - if I get too many responses to 
satisfy I'll just post to the digest - if not so many I won't waste space.

Don
sharp at rumor.enet.dec.com


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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 13:56 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: irish moss/lager starters/sanitizers/non-alc beers/non-stop ferment/rests/zests

Jeff writes:
>2.  Try adding Irish moss about 10-15 minutes before the end of the
>    boil.  This is supposed to provide nucleation sites for the protein
>    strands so they settle out.

I believe that the attraction is electrostatic and not simply nucleation
sites.

******************
Lee writes:
>When producing a starter I plan to pop the bag at cellar temp 65F.
>What temp should the starter I pitch to be?  Should I pitch it at 65 and 
>cool it to 60 let it reach full krausen, pitch this to a 2nd larger
>starter solution at 60 and cool to 55F and pitch this to the 55F wort?
>I plan to deal with the long lag time of cool initial wort temp by 
>having a large amount (2-3oz) of starter slurry.  Am I corect in my
>assumption that pitching at to high a temp while reducing lag time
>can produce flavors and ester inappropriate for a pilsner?

Sounds like a good plan to me.  I feel you are correct about the high
start temp creating unwanted esters and your plan will minimize this.

*****************
Tim writes:
>With all of this talk about using peracetic acid, let me just
>give people a brief warning.  Mixing peroxides and acids is not
>to be taken lightly.

I agree -- I'm glad you mentioned this.  One thing I had *NOT*
planned to do is make my own!

>We use a 3:1 mixture of a mineral acid (I will not name it) to 50 percent
>hydrogen peroxide as a method of removing photoresist from wafers.
>This mixture is called 'piranha etch' as it is very powerful.
>It will very strongly attack any organics, skin included.

Ick.  Not my idea of fun or "not worrying."

>I have found that plain old unscented chlorine bleach is a very
>effective cleaner.  Stuborn 'gunk' from a vigorous primary can easily be
>removed by just filling the carboy with water and adding a little
>bleach and letting it sit for a week. 
>It is also safer than many of the more concentrated cleaners.

I've found this too, but my intention was to minimize the amount of
un-natural chemicals I was dumping down the drain.  Acetic acid and
H2O2 seemed much more "green" than Chlorine Bleach or Iodine.  Am I
right?  Perhaps in the concentrations we are using them (and given
the concentration of the Acetic Acid needed for it to be useful),
perhaps 200ppm Chlorine bleach solution or 25ppm Iodophor is more
"green?"  Can someone who really knows confirm or correct this assumption,
please?

******************************

Frank writes:
>prepared by the Copley News Service.
>
>Basically brewers employ either of two methods to achieve a non-alcoholic
>product:
>
>1. The older technique takes beer that has been made in the usual way and 
>evaporates the alcohol by heating the brew in a vacuum chamber, which allows
>a low boiling point. Kingsbury and Kaliber are made this way. The principal

>2. A more modern method, used by most of the German brewers, uses intense
>cold and rapid extraction of the yeast to arrest the brewing process 
>before too much alcohol forms. This technique seems to leave a lot of the
>sugar in the brew and therefore gives it a sweet taste.

Remind me not to trust the Copley News Service.  You see, there is a
third method, which is used by at least one mega-brewer, in which a
semi-permiable membrane is used to extract the alcohol by osmosis and
a fourth method in which a special yeast is used that does not
produce much alcohol.

- ------------------------------

Kirk writes:
Subject: help! nonstop fermentation

>1 can (4lbs.) Ironmaster "Special Lager" malt extract
>packet of Isohop extract (included with above)
>2 lbs. corn sugar
>1/2 lb. maple syrup
>2 oz. apricot wine flavoring ("Wines Inc.")
>11.5 g sachet Edme dry yeast
>
>It was a 50-minute boil with apricot extract only going in the last five. 
>I rehydrated the yeast in warm water shortly before pitching.  O.G. was
>1.050 and when I racked to secondary three days later it was 1.018!  Now
>here's the problem: *that was exactly four weeks ago and fermentation has
>not stopped.*  Bubbles still rising, a cute layer of foam still on the
>surface.  I've never encountered this before.  I've always been a careful
>sanitizer, but should I assume something got by me this time?  Temperature
>has been 58-62F for the duration.  Don't pick on me for using corn sugar

Several possibilities:
1. 58-62F is pretty cool for some yeasts, although I was under the
impression that Edme was a voracious fermenter.

2. Could the apricot wine flavoring have some preservatives in it?
Did its instructions say to use it in the ferment or at botting?

3. You may have a wild yeast in there that's eating the more complex
sugars.  It may not be your sanitation -- the Edme may have had
a small amount of wild yeast along with the primary yeast.

I have a yeast that takes six or more weeks to ferment out even at
68F!

*****************
Chris writes:

>
> -what is a protein (enzyme) rest and at what temperature?

A protein rest is a time period in your mash schedule in which
proteolytic enzymes break large proteins into smaller proteins
and amino acids.  The larger proteins will give you chill haze
so you want them out of your beer.  The smaller proteins that
are created from the big ones will give you head retention and
bigger mouthfeel.  The amino acids are needed by the yeast for
nutrition.  Most malted barleys currently available are fully-modified,
so a protein rest is not really necessary.  Historically, only
undermodified (which is rare these days) pilsner malt *required*
a protein rest, but many brewers still incorporate one in their
mash schedules.  The temperatures for a protein rest are between
122F and 131F according to Charlie, if my memory serves correctly.
>
> -what is a good temperature to keep your mash so that the enzymes don't
>break down the complex sugars?  I am more concerned about a heavy
>malty taste (not caramelly taste) than the alcohol content.

You would want to do the saccharification rest at the higher end of the
saccharification range which is roughly 148F to 158F.   Therefore,
mashing at 158F will give you the most dextrinous wort, which appears
to be what you are seeking.  Along with this high mash temperature,
you may also want to increase the malt in the recipe to achieve this
"heavy malty taste."
>
> -what temperature converts starches over to sugars?

That's the saccharification range, above.
>
> -what "normal" order or succession should each of temperature
>categories be in?  does it matter?

(Optional) protein rest, followed by the saccharification rest,
followed by mashout at 168to170F.  You *must* work from the cooler
rests up to the warmer rests or, for example, you will denature the
proteolytic enzymes if you do the saccharification rest first.  There
is also an acid rest, which I believe is at 95F, used to
lower the pH of the mash (this is if you want to strickly follow
Reinheitsgebot and avoid chemical acidification of your mash).
>
>David (Chris) Mackensen
               ^^^^^^^^^
If you brew a sweet stout, I've got a suggestion for its name.

******************
Tony writes that he would avoid dried orange peel in his next
Witbier recipe.

Yesterday, I was reading Pierre Rajotte's _Belgain Ale_ in which
he mentions that the brewers there use *dried* orange peel.  Well,
this makes sense, because I don't think there are many Curacao
Oranges growing in Belgium.  I used fresh orange zest (4 oranges)
in the last 5 minutes of the boil in a semi-recent batch and it
was not very noticable -- I'm just saying that switching to fresh
zest doesn't automatically mean you will get more out of it.  I
will be trying dried next time, primarily because making fresh zest
is a pain and also because commercially-made dried zest is more
consistent, making the recipe more reproducable.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 15:29:35 -0500
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley)
Subject: Hallertauer porters

Anybody out there have experience using Hallertauer/Mt. Hood
in top fermented porters?  Please share with the HBD or at least
e-mail me.

Thanks,

Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 14:38:23 ???
From: kurka at bmcw.com
Subject:  A few observations regarding cleaners and sterilizing agents.

	Experiences I have had with chlorine as a sterilizing agent is that 
it has the possibility of giving an "off" flavor to the brew. Whether or not 
this was a case of not rinsing the equipment well enough after the chlorine 
soak is not known. 
	Soon after an experience like this, I switched to Sodium Bisulfate
as my primary sterilizing agent and have had fine success with it. If the 
equipment is not rinsed well, a white residue can be easily seen and delt with. 
(I find it to be a fair check on if the equipment has been cleaned well enough).
	A boiling water dip for bottles and caps is also recommended. 
Sterilizing glass jars and lids during any food canning process is done 
in this manner. (Since we are "Canning" liquid food, we can look to the
food canning process for a few tips). This step also will crack bottles that 
may be weak and might crack when actually put under pressure.

	Does anyone have a list of any Homebrew mail order catalogs? 
  Also, If any of you have used them, Your comments would be appreciated.

	Thanks for all the postings to HBD. We in Boise Idaho need contact 
with the "real" beer drinkers of the world.

					SPK (kurka at bmcw.com)

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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 14:14:16 PST
From: Richard Saunders <richsa at microsoft.com>
Subject: Two Seperate Questions on: Kegging and Bitterness

1. My friends and I have twice attempted the Fraternity House Ale (a 5 
gallon version) from the AHA Winner's Circle recipe book. Both times 
the beer has come out alright except for a kick-you-in-the-zipper 
bitter after taste which, as you can imagine, is very unpleasant.

While this recipe is kind of heavy on the hops I have a hard time 
thinking that this is the problem. I have boiled lots of hops for more 
than an hour before and had it turn out fine. Also, for the second 
batch instead of adding the finishing hops to the boil we just strained 
the wort through them at the end. I did read something recently (can't 
recall where) that said boiling crystal malt can result in bitterness. 
It is possible that we let the one step mash heat up too high. There 
were several times when we had to reduce the heat. Any other ideas or 
suggestions, or has anyone else seen this with crystal malt before?

2. I have just started kegging my beer (xmas present resulting from 
heavy-handed hinting) and love it. There are basically two recommended 
ways of carbonating that I have come to know. One is to prime with 1/3 
cup corn sugar when transfering into the keg - essentially treating the 
keg as a big bottle. The other (recommended by the local brew supply 
where the kegging system is from) is to simply let the beer ferment 
out, shoot it with 25 - 30 lbs of CO2, shake well, and let sit in a 
cold area for 3 days.

The second method is the one that I just used (unfortunately it was on 
the problem batch mentioned above). This turned out great. Wonderful, 
full creamy head and just enough carbonation in the beer.

My question is - there must be merrits to both but I can't seem to find 
them spelled out anywhere. Could people please edjamacate me?

Hasta,
Rich

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Date: Thu, 11 Mar 93 15:55:13 PST
From: klein at physics.Berkeley.EDU (David Klein)
Subject: RIMS Summary


I have been following the recent RIMS discussion with interest, and hope
to build a system in the near future. Thus I have gone back through the digest
and collected all RIMS posts that I could find (I looked back to Jan 91)
I edited the collection of posts down so as to ommit repeats (One design was
given if full twice) and comments by people who have not actually built a system

Since I have gone to the effort, I am more than happy to share the results
with all those who are interested in designing a system, or improving their own.
Simply write me, and I'll send it out to you (It is too long to post).

Also I would much appreciate a copy of the original Maltose Falcons RIMS aricle
I have no idea of how to get it, and would love a copy from someone.

Finally Questions:

    1) what pumps have people sucessfully used?
    2) ditto for thermisters and vessels (does everyone use a keg?)
    3) has anyone checked for thermal gradients?
    4) channeling is always an issue for sparging, but I've not seen it
        for RIMS, has anyone checked?
    5) mention has been made about automated mash systems of different design
         what are they? (What is Milspaw's design?)
    6) if anyone around the bay area has set up a system, or simply wants to
         share plans, I'd see them (a bay area RIMS conference??)

Dave

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Date: 11 Mar 1993 19:45:02 -0500 (EST)
From: WESTEMEIER at delphi.com
Subject: Cleaning plastic pails

A recent posting lamented the difficulty of getting strong food
smells and odors out of plastic pails and the like:

>I cleaned them with everything I could think of in every
>concentration to no avail. Some cleansers would seem to do
>the job, but in a few days the pickle smell would reappear. I
>concluded that the plastic had absorbed the taste/smell and
>was exuding it over time.  I threw them out

We have had very good luck locally in removing the stains AND the smells
from pickle containers by simply leaving them out in bright sunshine for
two or three days.

So simple it just doesn't occur to people, but try it!

- -- Ed Westemeier, Cincinnati, OH

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1096, 03/12/93