FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Yeast and Bottles (Jeff Frane)
  Miller Ale, Yeast Slurry Reuse (Joe Mulligan)
  re: sugar request, data point on aging (Brew Free Or Die  18-Mar-1993 1541)
  Yeast Lab, Hallertau in porters (Rob Bradley)
  Call for recipes (Robert Pulliam)
  yet another brewpub request (Scott Murphy)
  AHA/Pete's Press Release ("James Spence/AHA/Colo.")
  BrewCap ? (J. Michael Burgeson)
  More AoB Bashing (Joseph Nathan Hall)
  pH meters (Joseph Nathan Hall)
  DME vs. liquid malt extract (Nir Navot)
  Used Kegs (Sandy Cockerham)
  Disappointing Results (Michael J Kahlke)
  "candi" sugar (Andy Kurtz)
  Dark grains at mashout, Freezer (Ulick Stafford)
  Re: Yeast food ("John DeCarlo")
  Re: grain bags (Nick Zentena)
  Re:  oat bran in brewing (Jean Hunter)
  Los Alamos brewers ("JOSEPH V. GERMANI")
  quassia (John Freeman)
  Charlie recipes (colesa)
  How much is too much?  (gkushmer)
  pH meter (Loren Carter)
  Brewpubs and Micros in NV (Chris McDermott)
  roast material (J. Michael Burgeson)
  Re: Temp. Controls / Freezer (Sherman Gregory)
  Dextrine/cara-pils (Sherman Gregory)
  bottle drying rack (Sherman Gregory)
  Re: x-tal in muslin/hop spacing/mashing dark grains/Baderbrau (korz)
  Manifold Design and use ?? (Lee Menegoni)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 11:43:58 -0800 (PST)
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Yeast and Bottles

> From: johnw at NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (J. Williamson)
> Subject: yeast starter (help!!!)
> 
> 	I was hoping to brew a lager this past weekend when I ran into
> trouble getting a yeast starter going.  I was hoping that someone out
> there in HB land could shed some light on the situation and perhaps save
> me starting over.  Here are the particulars:
> 	Thursday evening I broke the inner package on a pack of Wyeast
> pilsen lager yeast (sorry, forgot the number).  The package of yeast was 
> dated 8 February.  By Friday morning the pack had expanded to about 3/4   
> to 1 inch in thickness.

Sounds like you were a bit hasty.  The package should be more like 3"
in thickness before it's pitched into the starter.

I pitched this into 3/4 quart of wort I had 
> prepared the evening before.  The wort starter was made by mixing 3 Tbs
> of an amber DME with 3/4 quart water in a 1 1/2 quart clean juice jar.
> I capped the jar and shook vigorously to mix well.  I then uncapped the
> jar, covered with tin foil, and put into a 16 quart kettle with about
> 4 inches of water.  I brought the water in the kettle, with the jar of 
> wort, to a boil and simmered for about 1/2 hour to sterilize.  The kettle
> was covered during the boil and simmer.  I then let the wort cool to room
> temperature (65F) overnight. 

I think this is another case of overkill.  You should be able to
sterilize your starter by simply boiling the DME and water for 15
minutes in a pan on the stove.  Then force-cool it in the sink by
putting on a lid and running cold water around it.  This cooling takes a
matter of minutes.  Transfer into your sterilized jar, aerate and add
the yeast.  The problem, though, as I said above is that you didn't get
enough growth before you pitched into this volume.  Given time it may
well come up to sufficient yeast volume to use for brewing.  Bear in
mind, however, that you need roughly twice as much lager yeast for
pitching as you do ale yeast.


The next morning was when I pitched the
> yeast from the pack.  That was last Friday.  To date nothing, nadda,
> zilch, has happened.  I've kept the supposed starter capped with aluminum
> foil and in a paper bag to avoid exposure to light.  The wort has remained 
> around 65F.  

Some more overkill.  Put your starter somewhere warm and don't worry
about light.  If you've used hopped DME (which some people recommend),
there might be a concern about light struck smells, but yeast don't have
any objection to light that I've every observed.

> 
> 	I called the supply house where i got the yeast and they mentioned
> that the low pressure storm system which just came through Phila may have
> caused the starter to mis-start.  This seems suspicious to me, however,
> because I've never heard of problems at higher elevations where atmospheric
> pressure is also less than at sea lever.

Well, now that's a creative suggestion.  Ridiculous, maybe, but
creative.


> From: rri!jreid at vtserf.cc.vt.edu (Joe Reid)
> Subject: Falling Krausen
> 
> I have a question about when the krausen begins to fall after 2-3 days of
> very active fermentation.  As the krausen falls I am left with (real techinical
> term here) "brown sludge" stuck to the sides of my primary (plastic bucket).  
> The fermentation slows rapidly after this, and if I scrape the sludge into the
> beer it begins fermentating again.
> 
> The question is, should I be scraping this sludge back into the beer?  

No.

Am I
> doing something wrong to be getting the sludge in the first place?

No.

> From: CRD at imagesys.com (Chris Dukes)
> Subject:      Sterilized bottles
> 
> I have been following the thread on sterilization/sanitization, but have
> yet to read anything regarding what to do once the bottles have been
> sterilized, other than fill them with homebrew. ;-)
> 
> Once the bottles are boiled, bleached, NaOH'ed, etc. . .where do you keep
> them before they are filled and capped?  I am concerned about nasties
> falling into the bottles while they are waiting to be filled.  Should I
> bottle a six or twelve pack at a time to make sure no bottles are waiting
> too long?
> 
> I have been cleaning the whole bunch and then filling and capping.  I
> believe I have run across an infection in one or two bottles (not the
> whole batch).  Therefore I have concluded that either the bottles weren't
> sterilized well enough, or something got into the bottle after
> sterilization.
> 
> Any help/advice on the subject would be greatly appreciated.  All grain
> snobs and lowly extract brewers responses are more than welcome! ;-)
> 
> 
Aha!  This is exactly the problem with any system but my own.  (Sorry. I
couldn't resist the "snob" approach.) (But it's true.)

If you take your clean bottles, and put little aluminum foil tops on
them and then put them in a cold oven, raise temp to 350 for 90 min.,
let them cool and put them back in the case, you will not have to worry
about nasties.  I have let bottles sit like this for days and then
bottled without problem, and could probably let them sit for weeks -- as
long as none of the kids stuck their fingers through the foil.  Another
advantage of the system is that you don't have to empty the dishwasher
first.

- --Jeff Frane



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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 12:46:39 EST
From: casey!aspen!joem at uu6.psi.com (Joe Mulligan)
Subject: Miller Ale, Yeast Slurry Reuse


  I have several questions for the readers of the HDB.

   1. Has anyone heard of a "Bass type" ale that Miller Brewing Co.
      was going to market? A friend of mine was on a tasting panel
      about 1 year ago. He said they were going to call it, tentatively,
      Miller Ale, Copperhead Ale, or God knows what.

      Flame me if you want, but it is (remotely?) possible that this could be
      a decent beer. After all, Detroit is making good cars again. Maybe
      the American mega-brewers can get their act together too.


   2. A while back I read a post asking if the yeast slurry in the bottom
      of a fermenter can be used to make bread or any other food products
      for human consumption. Any suggestions? (My friend's dogs are currently
      the benefactor of his yeast slurry. They love it!)


   3. Is the infamous Jim Koch related to the brewers of Koch's Anniversary
      Beer (from the New York area)?


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 13:11:15 PST
From: Brew Free Or Die 18-Mar-1993 1541 <hall at buffa.enet.dec.com>
Subject: re: sugar request, data point on aging

In HBD #1100:
>From: "Knight,Jonathan G" <KNIGHTJ at AC.GRIN.EDU>
>Subject: sugar request, data point on aging

>And how do you pronounce "succanat"?  Suck a gnat?  Sue can not?  

It's one "c", Sucanat.  It's a contraction of the words sugar cane natural.
And I pronounce it sue can gnat.  It might actually be shoo can gnat.
I'm eating some now.  Yum!

- --
 Dan Hall   Digital Equipment Corporation   MKO1-2/H10   Merrimack, NH   03054
 hall at buffa.enet.dec.com		        ....!decwrl!buffa.dec.com!hall
  
 		      "Adhere to Schweinheitsgebot
	Don't put anything in your beer that a pig wouldn't eat"  --David Geary

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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 16:30:57 -0500
From: bradley at adx.adelphi.edu (Rob Bradley)
Subject: Yeast Lab, Hallertau in porters

Has anyone tried "Yeast` Lab" (tm) liquid yeast cultures?  They
just turned up at my local brewshop.  They're distributed by
G. W. Kent, so I imagine they are/soon will be readily available.

They come in litte 35 ml vials.  They cost the same as Wyeast.
The selection is similar.  They have most of the Wyeast strains,
and a couple that Wyeast don't seem to have.  There are 8 ales:
Autralian, American, London, British, Irish, Dussledorf, Canadian,
Trappist.  5 lagers: Pilsner, Bavarian, Munich, St. Louis, California.
There's a Bavarian and Weizen and two mead yeasts: dry and sweet.
I guess Autralian and Canadian ales and the two mead yeasts are
the only varieties not availbale from Wyeast.  I'm looking forward
to trying the mead yeasts.
__________

Thanks to all who replied on the subject of Hallertauer in porters.
In particular, thanks to Jeff, Russ, Nick, Kieth, Jim and Walt.
The use of Hallertauer, Mt. Hood or Tettnanger as a finishing
hop or dry hop for porter seems quite popular.  I had originally
been planning to do the same, but then I got thinking about using
them (Hal. and Mt. Hood in this case) for bittering and flavor as
well.  Only Kieth MacNeal seems to have tried this.  He bittered
with Hallertauer and Tettnanger in a porter that was also flavored
with ginger and juniper.  Wish I could try some!!

So I think I'm going to go for it:  I plan to follow the recipe
"Foster's Entire Butt" in Foster's _Porter_, except that I'll
use Hallertauer and Mt. Hood (possibly a touch of NB as well)
for all hop additions, and tone down the chocolate malt a
little.  The hope is to get something like a Bavarian dark beer
in hops and color, but with the ale characteristic of a porter.
Wyeast London, in case you were wondering.

Cheers,

Rob (bradley at adx.adelphi.edu)

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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 14:31:20 PST
From: Robert Pulliam <pulliam at monty.rand.org>
Subject: Call for recipes


Have any of you successfully cloned "Pete's Wicked Ale"?  If so, I would
love to get your recipe.  How about "Dos Equis Amber" (for Cinco de Mayo)
Anyone?

Robert J. Pulliam            |+|all thoughts, statements, and opinions,|+|
Los Angeles, CA.             |+|demented or not, should be my own; and |+|
pulliam at monty.rand.org       |+|I'm certainly not associated . . . . . |+|

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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 15:20:35 PST
From: scott at gordian.com (Scott Murphy)
Subject: yet another brewpub request

A friend of mine is driving from CA. to NJ. and is interested in
visiting the brewpubs along the way.  If you know of any in
Wyoming, S. Dakota, Minn., Wisc, Ill., Ind., Ohia, or Penn. please
email me.  I can summerize to the net if anyone wants to know.

thanks

scott

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Date: 18 Mar 93 18:24:21 EST
From: "James Spence/AHA/Colo." <70740.1107 at compuserve.com>
Subject: AHA/Pete's Press Release

PRESS RELEASE

The American Homebrewers Association (AHA) announces Pete's Brewing Company's
sponsorship of the 1993 Ninkasi Award to be presented at the 1993 National
Homebrew Competition being held July 27-29 in Portland, Oregon.  Named after
the Sumerian Goddess of Brewing, this premier honor is awarded based upon
brewing proficiency across several categories of beer.  Scoring is based upon
the greatest accumulation of points across all style categories.

In addition to this year's trophy, judges and Pete's Brewing Company will
choose one of the Ninkasi Award winner's beers to be brewed as the first Pete's
Wicked Winter Brew which will be distributed coast to coast.

Compliments of Pete's Brewing Company, the award winning brewer will also
receive:

**Name recognition on every bottle of Pete's Wicked Winter Brew.

**Registration at the two week Short Course in Brewing Technology at the Siebel
Institute of Technology in Chicago (tuition, travel and lodging included).

**Attendance at Pete's Wicked Winter Brew's first brewing at Pete's Brewing
Company (travel and lodging included).


"As a homebrewer, I am excited to offer this opportunity to a fellow
homebrewer," remarks Pete Slosberg, founder of Pete's Brewing Company.  Pete's
homebrewing led to Pete's Wicked Ale, now a nationally acclaimed microbeer and
the 1992 Gold Medal Winner of the American Brown Ale category at the Great
American Beer Festival.  He continues, "This is the chance for someone's
homebrewing skills to be recognized across the United States."

The American Homebrewers Association, a division of the Association of Brewers,
is dedicated to promoting public awareness and appreciation of the quality and
variety of beers through the collection and dissemination of information.  For
more information about the National Homebrewers Conference or Competition,
please contact the AHA at (303) 447-0816.

 Contact: Karen Barela  (303) 447-0816
   American Homebrewers Association

   Kristin Seuell  (800) 877-7383
   Pete's Brewing Company

###


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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 1993 17:45:41 -0800
From: Michael.Burgeson at Eng.Sun.COM (J. Michael Burgeson)
Subject: BrewCap ?


Can someone who has a BrewCap please tell me if they will fit 
on the threaded neck of a 6.5 gallon carboy, or do they only 
work on the smooth neck of the 5 gallon carboys?

tx,
 - --mik

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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 20:08:38 EST
From: joseph at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Subject: More AoB Bashing


Back on 8 February, I ordered some books from the AoB.  Among them
was The Practical Brewer.

When the package arrived a few days later, Practical Brewer was
not in it and was, according to the invoice, backordered.  Of course
I was charged for it anyway. When I called (the day the package arrived), 
I was told the book was out of stock and would be in around the first of 
March.  I said, OK, but I'm not too happy that you have invoiced me
for something you aren't going to ship for another three weeks.
(No response.)

Mind you, I wasn't told about the backorder when I phoned my order
in. :-||

So weeks and weeks roll by.  No Practical Brewer.

I called again today.  This time I was told "the book isn't back from
the printer yet ... it's a new printing."  I can now, they say, expect
the book to ship around the first of April.

None of this would bother me if AoB, which purports to run a high-class
mailorder operation, would do the usual high-class thing and INVOICE
ONLY FOR ITEMS SHIPPED.  I could wait for months (not that I would
like to) if they weren't holding onto my money.  As it is, though, 
I am getting more and more pissed about this, as well as silliness 
like "15% off" a $10 book...I mean, the mailing probably cost half
of that discount per member!

I plan to send a written complaint shortly, and encourage any of the
rest of you who have had trouble with the mailorder service, or other
aspects of the AHA/AoB/etc. to do the same with your gripes.

Help stamp out poor service in OUR organization.

================O Fortuna, velut Luna, statu variabilis================
uunet!joebloe!joseph   (609) 273-8200 day   joseph%joebloe at uunet.uu.net
2102 Ryan's Run East        Rt 38 & 41             Maple Shade NJ 08052
Copyright 1993 by Joseph N. Hall.   Permission granted to copy and
redistribute freely over USENET and by email.  Commercial use prohibited.

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Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 20:40:33 EST
From: joseph at joebloe.maple-shade.nj.us (Joseph Nathan Hall)
Subject: pH meters

Nick says:
)         I finally broke down and bought a ph meter.[The
)         hanna unit that American brewer sells if it matters]
)         I now have three questions:

I have one of these.  It works reasonably well for something
so inexpensive.

)         1) can I just use distilled water to calibrate at
)         ph7?

No, positively not.  You must use a buffer solution of some sort.
I recommend getting a pH 7 buffer and another buffer around 5.5.
The CRC Handbook has a table that tells you how to make up buffers
of any pH your heart desires.  I have 4, 5.5 and 7 in my cabinet.
You can also find premixed buffers (generally expensive) and buffer
capsules that you mix with some quantity of distilled water.

Distilled water has no buffering capacity.  Even a tiny bit of some
acidic or alkaline material in distilled water will change its pH
significantly--including contaminants that might be present on the
pH meter.  Typically, a probe rinsed in tap water will read well above
7 when placed in distilled water--because of the alkalinity of the
tap water.

)         2) can I expect this thing to be reasonably
)         calibrated just out of the box? Or should I just
)         check to make sure?

Don't trust it.  No way.  It could be +/- .5 units, or more.

)         3) Finally is there anything I should look out for?

Cool the samples to <100F before making your measurements.  Ideally
to <80F.  This isn't for the probe's sake, but for the sake of
accuracy.  The pH changes with temperature.

================O Fortuna, velut Luna, statu variabilis================
uunet!joebloe!joseph   (609) 273-8200 day   joseph%joebloe at uunet.uu.net
2102 Ryan's Run East        Rt 38 & 41             Maple Shade NJ 08052
Copyright 1993 by Joseph N. Hall.   Permission granted to copy and
redistribute freely over USENET and by email.  Commercial use prohibited.

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Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 93 08:19:33 +0200
From: Nir Navot <LCNAVOT at WEIZMANN.WEIZMANN.AC.IL>
Subject:      DME vs. liquid malt extract

Is there any reason for not using DME only in an extract brew? Is there
something in the liquid malt extract that DME has not? As my only source of
extract (till I turn grain...) is from abroad I figured DME would give me more
extract per kilo (which counts if you have to use over-seas air-mail).
So, is my beer going to miss anything?
Nir

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Date: 19 Mar 1993 07:53:25 -0500 (EST)
From: Sandy Cockerham <COCKERHAM_SANDRA_L at LILLY.COM>
Subject: Used Kegs

Hi,
Does anyone know a good source for used 3 gallon Cornelius Kegs ??
thanks, Sandy C.

From: COCKERHAM SANDRA L            (MCVAX0::RX31852)

To:   VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE            (IN::"homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com")

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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 09:51:02 EST
From: Michael J Kahlke <kahlke at express.ctron.com>
Subject: Disappointing Results


Jeff Frane asks:

> On another note, has anyone ever gotten results anything like Charlie's
> from one of his recipes?  He seems to bat them out at a fairly high
> rate, and I've wondered over the years how much time goes into
> developing each one, and whether he's ever brewed one of them more than
> once (or better yet, more than three times) before publishing them.

I just brewed a batch of his "Bruce and Kay's Black Honey Spruce Lager"
last month.  Fortunately, the owner of my local brewing supplying shop
warned me that he had tried to make this several times and recommended
that I use only a quarter of the spruce essence that Charlie Papazian
states in his recipe.  The result was a spruce lager with just the right
amount of "spruce-iness" to it.  If the store proprietor hadn't warned
me I would have ended up with two cases of Pine Sol instead.

Mike Kahlke


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 10:23:18 -0500 (EST)
From: Andy Kurtz <ak35+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: "candi" sugar


In "Belgian Ale"  Rajotte writes:

"Candi sugar is made by the slow crystallization of a highly
concentrated hot sugar solution.  The sugar solution is cooled in a tank
in which cotton strings are hung.  The crystals form themselves around
the strings.  The slower the cooling, the larger the crystals become."

questions:

1.  How concentrated is "highly concentrated"?
2.  Rajotte says that the taste profile of candi sugar is different from
sugar                                    "out of the bag."  In what way? 
3.  This sounds a lot old fashioned "rock candy."  Will the results be
the same if I try this at home on a micro scale?

andy

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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 10:27:33 EST
From: Ulick Stafford <ulick at bernini.helios.nd.edu>
Subject: Dark grains at mashout, Freezer

In hbd 1101 Frank Tutzaner referred to references by a local brewmaster
and Micah that dark grains should be added at mashout.  Forgive me for 
being a purist, but wasn't the original reason for dark grains, and hence
dark beers, pH reduction prior to a good understanding of such matters?
Adding dark grains later may add color and sugars, but apart from a 
slight extra asstringency, what is the problem with conventional maching
getting the benefit of pH reduction?  Adding grains late in the mash is
a step towards Michelob Dark.

I just purchased a 1950's Jeffrey Dahmer ( ;-) ) chest freezer by
International Harvester!  They certainly don't make them like they used to.
IH may have used the same sheet metal for this that they used for trucks.
It has features I have never seen before like a battery powered alarm if the
temperature rises and a thermometer in the door - unfortunately it says warm
to cold, rather than temperature.  This huge heavy beast was moved relatively
smoothly and is now in my basement and I do not feel like dragging it
back up the stairs!  Anyway, now that I have my summer lager I will be
very interested in answers to Glenn Raudin's questions in hbd 1101.
But I have a few more which refer to lagering.  I can probably fit
4 or 5 carboys in the freezer and so can now do long lagering, but
what do I do when adding a new beer to the lager?  Obviosly It would be
bad to adjust the temperature upwards from 40 or lower to step down
a new addition.  I have another small refrigerator that can take a 5 gallon
carboy that I use now, and could continue to use for step downs or 32
lagering for those extra special beers.  Also, how do people do
summer primary fermentations? I wouldn't want to raise the temperature in
the freezer even to 48, and because my 7 gallon carboys will not fit in the
refrigerator, will I be forced to use a blow off tube and 5 gallon carboys?
Any suggestions?
__________________________________________________________________________
 'Heineken!?! ... F#$% that s at &* ...  | Ulick Stafford, Dept of Chem. Eng.  
    Pabst Blue Ribbon!'               | Notre Dame IN 46556
                                      |    ulick at bach.helios.nd.edu   


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 10:45:15 EST
From: "John DeCarlo" <jad at pegasus.mitre.org>
Subject: Re: Yeast food

>From: Keith A. MacNeal  <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>

>In HBD #1100, John Williamson writes:

>>       Thursday evening I broke the inner package on a pack of Wyeast
>>pilsen lager yeast (sorry, forgot the number).  The package of yeast was
>>dated 8 February.  By Friday morning the pack had expanded to about 3/4
>>to 1 inch in thickness.  I pitched this into 3/4 quart of wort I had
>>prepared the evening before.  The wort starter was made by mixing 3 Tbs
>>of an amber DME with 3/4 quart water in a 1 1/2 quart clean juice jar.

>I think your problem was that you used only 3 tbs of DME.  Are you sure you
>gave the yeast enough to eat?

I guess I have a hard time with measurements like that.  For a starter, you 
want 1.020 wort, which roughly translates into 1 oz. for each pint.  So for 
1.5 pints you want about 1.5 oz.

3 "heaping" tablespoons might easily be *more* than 1.5 oz.  Sometimes I 
get more than 1 oz. out of one heaping tablespoon (I weigh for starters).
OTOH, 3 "level" tablespoons might easily be *less* than 1 oz.

So, he either put in more DME than needed or less than recommended.

*I* don't know.

Fidonet: 1:109/131   Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org

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Date: 	Fri, 19 Mar 1993 10:40:52 -0500
From: Nick Zentena <zen%hophead at canrem.com>
Subject: Re: grain bags

> 
> Date: Wed, 17 Mar 1993 14:20:28 -0800 (PST)
> From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
> Subject: crystal malt in muslin bag
> 
> In HBD 1099 Mike Rego asks about Cara-pils haze.  This prompts me to ask a
> more general question regarding the addition of other malts to an
> all-extract brew.  Up until now I've been putting these in a tighly-woven
> hop bag, but am convinced that the bag is too small, packing all the grains i
> much too closely and restricting the extraction I get.
> 
> I'm thinking of using a much larger bag made out of muslin, but am wondering
> if the much coarser weave will allow undesirable things into the wort.  My
> procedure is generally to steep the grains for 20 minutes or so at 170
> degrees, then remove the bag prior to bringing the wort to the boil.
> 
        When I was still doing extract I would make bags out
        of cheese cloth. Worked great. Plus the cost for it
        was so low you could just toss them afterwards.

> 
> My thoughts are that the muslin idea would work, because in full grain brewin
> all this stuff is thrown in with no strainer bag, right?

        Well yes but you also have some way to sparge. My
        current lautertun has a copper manifold in the
        bottom. It basically does the same job has the bag
        in keeping the grains out of the boil.


                Nick

*****************************************************************************
I drink Beer I don't collect cute bottles!
zen%hophead at canrem.com
*****************************************************************************

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Date:         Fri, 19 Mar 93 10:52:29 EST
From: Jean Hunter <MS3Y at CORNELLA.cit.cornell.edu>
Subject:      Re:  oat bran in brewing

Has anyone tried using oat bran in an oatmeal stout?  As a brewer in the
extract/partial mash school, I question the logic of using large quantities
of flaked oats as a specialty grain, especially when the starch will
obviously not be converted.  I would expect the gums and glucans to be
concentrated in the bran of the oat -- so why not use just the bran fraction
and save the rolled oats for breakfast?

I suppose that I'm assuming here that the major contribution of oats to a
stout is the fullness and body provided by the gums.

Can anyone comment on this assumption?
Has anyone tried brewing with oat bran, and with what results?
              Thanks and cheers -- Jean               (Sigbars waste bandwidth)

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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 11:32 EST
From: "JOSEPH V. GERMANI" <GERMANI%NSLVAX at Venus.YCC.Yale.Edu>
Subject: Los Alamos brewers

Greetings,

Well, it's job search time for me, and one of the most important things to find 
out about a town that you might be moving to is if there are there any 
homebrewers there! So how about it, are there any brewers out there in Los 
Alamos?  There must be some Hill Hoppers on the net.  Please reply directly to 
me GERMANI%NSLVAX at VENUS.YCC.YALE.EDU.  Thanks for the use of the bandwidth.

By the way, I hear that there is a small brewery half way between Santa Fe and 
Taos that makes a good green chili beer.  I think that it is called Embudo 
Station.

		Joe

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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 10:52:37 CST
From: jlf at palm.cray.com (John Freeman)
Subject: quassia

Last night I was enjoying a Pipers Pride at Sherlock's Home in
Minnetonka and commented to the owner how much I liked it.  He then
showed me an article from Midwest Beer Notes about Pipers Pride.  Here
is a sentence that caught my attention "in our Pipers Pride I use a bit
of quassia -- a South American herb favored by many Scottish brewers
and used as late as the 1950's for some export ales."

I had never heard of quassia before.  Does anyone know anything about
it?  Like where to get it?  How much to use?

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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 10:19:29 -0700
From: colesa at spot.Colorado.EDU
Subject: Charlie recipes

In digest #1101 Jeff Frane asks:

>On another note, has anyone ever gotten results anything like Charlie's
>from one of his recipes?  He seems to bat them out at a fairly high
>rate, and I've wondered over the years how much time goes into
>developing each one, and whether he's ever brewed one of them more than
>once (or better yet, more than three times) before publishing them.
>What really struck me was his recipe in the most recent Zymurgy, which
>calls for (not having it in front of me, and whoops, here we go again
>relying on memory) something in the neighborhood of 3.5# of dry malt
>extract and about 3 pounds (maybe a little more) of specialty grains.
>This to produce five gallons of a beer over 1.065.  Does anyone else
>think this is unlikely?
>
>- --Jeff Frane


My roomate and I just bottled his Toad Spit Stout, and although we modified
it a little (some extra dry dark malt extract and a little less liquid
extract), it tasted at bottling time VERY similar to Guinness, as he
claims.  Just my $.02.

Cheers!




Adam Coles                   *
Senior, Bioengineering       * Sure I'll wear a three piece suit...
College of Engineering       * As long as it's jeans, t-shirt, 
CU Boulder                   * and a leather jacket!


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 12:20:37 EST
From: gkushmer at Jade.Tufts.EDU
Subject: How much is too much? 


I'm thinking of making a fruit beer (acutally, its a vegetable
beer), and I want it to have a good deal of residual sweetness.

To accomplish this I was thinking about putting in a pound and 
a half of crystal malt.  Does anyone think that this might
be too much, or would this not make the beer as sweet tasting
as I might want?  I don't want it donut-sweet, but I would
like some slightly sugary taste in there.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!

- --gk


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 10:41:17 -0700
From: Loren Carter <lcarter at claven.idbsu.edu>
Subject: pH meter

In HBD 1100 Nick asks:


        1) can I just use distilled water to calibrate at
        ph7?

 No!  distilled water is not always at a pH of 7, in fact water will hardly 
ever have a pH of 7.  Disolved gases will cause the pH to vary.  Disolved 
carbon dioxide will cause the pH to be around 5.6.

 Also I would not trust the calibration on the new intrument.  It probably 
is not calibrated at all and the calibration does change with time.  Use a 
buffer solution of known pH to calibrate the meter.

Hope this helps.

Loren Carter
Chemistry Department
Boise State University
Boise, Idaho

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Date: 19 Mar 1993 13:04:54 -0500
From: Chris McDermott <mcdermott at draper.com>
Subject: Brewpubs and Micros in NV

 Brewpubs and Micros in NV
Asking for a freind:

I'm looking for any Brewpubs or Micros in or around Las Vegas.
Please reply via email to save HbD bandwidth.

Thanks,
_
Christopher K. McDermott / MS 22          Internet:  mcdermott at draper.com
C.S. Draper Laboratory, Inc.              Voice:     (617) 258-2362
555 Technology Square                     FAX:       (617) 258-1311
Cambridge, MA 02149 (USA)




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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 10:32:00 -0800
From: Michael.Burgeson at Eng.Sun.COM (J. Michael Burgeson)
Subject: roast material

My local homebrew supplier (Fermentation Frenzy) has a bag of "Roast
Material" from Hugh Baird.  "Roast Material" is what is printed on the
bag above the Hugh Baird logo.  It looks like roast barley to me, but
it tasted different (more biscuity).  Has anyone had any experience
with this grain?  Is "Roast Material" the British name for "Roast
Barley"?  Or is there more than one type of grain in it (it didn't look
like that to me).  Does anyone know what this stuff is?

see 'ya,
 - --mik

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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 10:43:45 -0800
From: sherman at qualcomm.com (Sherman Gregory)
Subject: Re: Temp. Controls / Freezer

>Date: Thu, 18 Mar 93 8:24:05 CST
>From: raudins at galt.b17d.ingr.com (Glenn Raudins)
>Subject: Temp. Controls / Freezer

>Re: Temperature Controls

>I would like some feedback on what people think of their temperature controls
>for their refrigs/freezers.  Has anyone used the digital one from American
>Brewmaster?  I like the idea of the digital ones, but I've only seen ones that
>go down to 40 degrees.  I know Williams beverage sell one that goes down to
>20 degrees but it does not have a digital display. 
>
>Re: Refrig/Freezer
>
>Any recommendations on refrigs/freezers that have worked well for people?  I
>seem to think that a chest freezer would allow the best utilization of space
>and it would allow the temperatures for lagering.  Also, what results have
>people gotten lagering with just their refrigs (down to 40 degrees I believe)?

I use both the temperature controler that William's sells and a Hunter "Air
Stat" for different refrigs.  The one thet William's sells (~$50) is a very
good quality industrial grade unit made by "PENN controls"  if I remember
right.  It is true that it doesn't have a digital display, but who needs
one?  It would look cool and impress all of your friends, but not really
necessary.  The Hunter Air Stat I bought a Home Depot for $19.  It does
have a digital display for the coolness effect, but has a couple of
disadvantages.  One is that the user interface was designed for programming
room air conditioners to save energy.  It is hard to use to just adjust the
temp setting and keep it there.  The other disadvantage id that it only
goes down to 40 or 45 deg F.  This is not cold enough for lagering.  Its
best advantage is price.

As far as refrigs go, I agree that the chest type would be best, althouth I
have not run accros one for the right price yet.   Most refrigs should not
have a lot of trouble getting down to 32 deg F for lagering.  I know that
none of my three do.


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 11:03:50 -0800
From: sherman at qualcomm.com (Sherman Gregory)
Subject: Dextrine/cara-pils

>korz at iepubj.att.com Writes
>Now, who was it that started the rumour that Cara-pils is not like other
>specialty malts?  I have been treating it just like any other Crystal
>malt with no problems.  The one difference is that U.S. Dextrin Malt
>(another name for Cara-pils) which is made from scrawny 6-row grains
>is hard as ball bearings!  You could break a tooth on that stuff!  The
>DeWolf-Cosyns Cara-pils is made from 2-row and is nice and plump and
>not at all like US Cara-pils.  Bottom line is, that Cara-pils is just
>very pale Crystal Malt (7.87L or 15 EBC for the DeWolf-Cosyns).

I was under the understanding that the process for malting crystal sort of
accomplished a pseudo mash.  I have never heard how Dextrine/cara-pils is
made.  What I do know is that William' Brewing (Bill Moore's company) sells
Dextrine/cara-pils as something that needs to be mashed, and also sells L10
light crystal as a non-masher substitute for this.  I have used both, but
with otherwise identical brews, so I have no comparison between the two. 

Does anybody know how Dextrine/cara-pils is malted?  What are the other
opinions and experiences with not mashing it?



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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 1993 11:32:51 -0800
From: sherman at qualcomm.com (Sherman Gregory)
Subject: bottle drying rack

With the thread going on about bottle drying racks, I thought I would my
$.02 worth in.  

I did not like the idea of something sticking into the neck of my already
sanatized bottles, like the comercially available racks do. It seemed that
I would have to sanatize the rack also.  So, I made my own rack from
plastic that I got out of the scrap pile at the local plastics store.  It
basically looks like a box, about 18"X30"X5" with 60 holes (1.25" I think)
drilled in the top. It holds 60 bottles upside down so nothing falls in
them, and no part of it goes into the bottle.  It sits on the counter top
when in use, an is easily stored when not.  It can also be moved around
with the bottles in it, if one is careful. It is constructed by glewing
some 1/4" plastic sheets together, then drilling holes with a hole saw.  I
don't ASCII graphics are necessary here, unless sombody really wants them.

     Sherman


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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 14:20 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: x-tal in muslin/hop spacing/mashing dark grains/Baderbrau

Peter writes:
>In HBD 1099 Mike Rego asks about Cara-pils haze.  This prompts me to ask a
>more general question regarding the addition of other malts to an
>all-extract brew.  Up until now I've been putting these in a tighly-woven
>hop bag, but am convinced that the bag is too small, packing all the grains in
>much too closely and restricting the extraction I get.
>
>I'm thinking of using a much larger bag made out of muslin, but am wondering
>if the much coarser weave will allow undesirable things into the wort.  My
>procedure is generally to steep the grains for 20 minutes or so at 170
>degrees, then remove the bag prior to bringing the wort to the boil.
>
>The grain crushing process (either a rolling pin for me, or sometimes I buy
>it pre-crushed from my brew shop) produces powder along with broken grains.
>How important is it to sift all this powder out?  If it gets into the wort
>will it cause any problems?

I suggest using a bigger (I think it's polyester) grain bag.  I think your
process is fine (for extract beers, I suspend the grain bag in cold water
and pull it out when it reaches 170F).  Most of the powder when you crush
crystal malt (AND THIS IS IMPORTANT) is the crystalized sugar.  Taste it.
It's sweet.  The first time I used crystal malt, I shook the grain bag
till the brown powder stopped coming out.  I then thought about it (I
had more than an hour to think, you see) and realized that the powder
was probably crystalized sugars.  Sure enough, when I tasted it, it was
sweet.  Now, if you are pulverizing your grain husks, then part of the
powder will be husk, but the solution is crushing your malt better and
not using a more fine bag.  Fix the source of the problem, don't put
a bandaid(tm) on a symptom.

*******************

Brian writes:
>I'm waiting for my hop rhizome order to arrive from Freshops.
>In the meantime, a friend has already received his, and tells
>me that 6 ft. spacing is recommended between varieties.  I have
>a good idea where I want to put them, but I'll only have about
>4.5 - 5 ft between varieties.  I'd like to hear from some
>experienced growers out there:  how far apart your varieties
>are, any problems, speculation on whether I'll get into trouble
>with closer than 6' spacing, etc.

The problem with having the spacing too close is that the hop
plants send runners underground and when they come up, you dont know
which plant they came from.  I planted mine 6 feet apart and put
3-foot diameter, rabbit fencing cages around them.  This was to keep
the rabbits and the pesky deer away from the young shoots.  Any
shoots that come up outside any of the cages, I chop them off with
a vertical chop with a spade.  This way, the shoots get cut off at
the source, just outside the cage, so they wouldn't eventually creep
into the next cage.  The fear, in case it's not obvious, is to
know what variety you are picking, so you don't dump Chinooks in
when you are expecting Saaz.  My standard "give each plant 6 gallons
of water and as much sun as you can" should also be mentioned.

**********************

Frank writes:
>I know Micah's no longer with us (gee, that sounds like he's dead--you know
>what I mean:  He's no longer with the DIGEST), but before he left he made the
>argument that dark grains should only be added at mash out, rather than for
>the whole mash.  The subject came up at our homebrew meeting last night, and
>Fred Lang, the brewmaster at our local micro, agreed with Micah.  He said to
>put the dark grains in for just ten or twenty minutes at the end, while
>mashing out.

This is dependent on your brewing water.  In Munich, the dominant style used
to be a Dunkel, made with dark grains.  This was because the dark grains
would acidify the Munich water and dark lagers just came out better than
paler ones.  If your water is soft, then you may indeed want to only
add the dark grains in during mashout.

**********************

Jack writes:
> Judging from all the interest in getting that caramel flavor recently 
> displayed on the Digest, I presume that lots of people would not find that a 
> problem.  More importantly, Ken Pachivich at Bader Brau makes an issue of his 
> "fire brewed" process to achieve that caramel taste for his award winning 
> Pilsner.  He brags about how hot the fire must be to achieve caramelization.

Controlled caramelization is quite hard to acheive, especially for us
homebrewers.  Commercial brewers are better equiped to control the
amount of caramelization that occurs.  Baderbrau is somewhere between
dark blonde and light amber in color, so the caramelization is not very
severe.  Obviously, Ken has good control over the amount that occurs.
For us to add repeatable caramel flavors in our beers, I'd say that
crystal malts are our best bet.

With all due respect to you, Jack, and at the risk of bringing an abrupt
end to the pleasant demeanor (and humor) you've recently displayed in
HBD, I'd like to dispute Ken Pavichevich's claims that Baderbrau is a
Pilsener.

We've disagreed on this before and no matter what Ken says or the people
who have deemed Baderbrau an award-winning Pilsener say, I contend that
it's not a Pilsener.  It is too malty in both nose and flavor, slightly
fruity and a tiny bit dark to be classified as a pilsener.  The caramelly
flavor that you say that Ken brags about is out of place in a Pilsener.
Pilseners are supposed to be sharply refreshing, their balance should
be decidedly towards hops in both flavor and aroma and have a spicy hop nose
(PU uses Saaz).  I'd say Baderbrau is a great Munich Helles (albeit at the
dark end of the style).  I feel it's a great beer, just not a Pilsener.
 
Al.

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Date: Fri, 19 Mar 93 16:47:40 EST
From: Lee Menegoni <necis!lmenegon at transfer.stratus.com>
Subject: Manifold Design and use ??

I have ten feet of 3/8" od soft copper tubing left over from 
constructing a wort chiller.  I have considered using this
to construct a slotted copper manifold.  Is this diameter
adequate?  or should I use the Tee and plumbing stock type
of pipe.  
When using the manifold does one also use a mesh grain bag or
does one just add grain to the mash tun with out a screen or
mesh bag over the manifold?
Is there any problem using  PVC pipe and connectors instead of
copper, besides philosphical issues.  It is used for hot and
cold water plumbing in some new construction so it is able
 to handle mas/sparge temps.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1102, 03/22/93