FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Yeast, Kegging (Jack Schmidling)
  boiling concentrates the wort (Tony Babinec)
  diastatic power of some malts (Tony Babinec)
  Help, I boiled away the hops (Markham R. Elliott)
  Re: Immersion cooler length (Tim Anderson)
  Request for decoction mashing help.... (Ford Prefect)
  Problems with tab characters (Chris Cook)
  Copper tubing sizes (Paul dArmond)
  Thanks for the decoction info. (/O=vmspfhou/S=dblewis/DD.SITE=JSCPROFS/)
  Questions ("Steve Kurka")
  Runaway Ferment... HELP!!! (Jim Bayer)
  Re: Eternal ferment/how long does CO2 last? (korz)
  Follow-up: Tower System (ATKINSON)
  Re: Enzyme potential (korz)
  kiwi wine (2)
  Vermont brews and brewpubs (Alan Christopher Braddock)
  Problem with initial SG value? (LYONS)
  Re: Heading Agent (Carl West)
  Re:miles of troooob (If wishes were cows)
  Rauchbier ("Tom Stolfi")
  Rauchbier (Tom Stolfi                                 wauts - cwe1iin)
  Decoction mashing vs Infusion Mashing (Pat Lasswell)
  Coriolis force (Ed Hitchcock)
  Re: chiller lenght (Carlo Fusco)
  boiling exploitation (David C Mackensen)
  Re: Wine and Oxidation (Kelly Jones)
  hard cider brewing (Bridget Cullinan)
  Lee Menegoni (George J Fix)
  Homebrew Digest #1115 (April 08, 1993) ("JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR")
  Givin' carboys a swirly (/O=vmspfhou/S=dblewis/DD.SITE=JSCPROFS/)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 09:20 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Yeast, Kegging

 
 >From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
 
 >There is an increased risk associated with "dipping" a loop into a slant
 repeatedly.  I would advise restreaking to a single cell at least
 once a year.  In theory it can last for years, but why risk it?
 If you are already culturing yeasts, then what is the extra plate and
 slant once a year to ensure clean yeast?....
 
 I guess I am more concerned about the risk of making it sound so complicated 
 that people are intimidated.  For the person who has never done any of this 
 before, the simpler the better and if he has to buy a new slant every year is 
 still way ahead of buying new yeast for every batch.
 
 Turning that liquid yeast packet into ten or so slants directly would be my 
 choice as the way to get one's feet wet.  I think I tried to get to much into 
 that "beginner's" article on yeast culture.  The petri dish streaking can be 
 ignored till the easy part becomes routine.
 
 >From: C05705DA at WUVMD.Wustl.Edu
 >Subject:      silly question on kegging
 
 >Could anybody give me any insight on why NOT to carbonate a keg naturally,
 like in bottling, instead of using carbonated water and all the works
 needed to do kegging. 
 
 Not sure what you mean by carbonated water but the two basic reasons most of 
 us force carbonate are:
 
    1. Although it improves with time, you can drink the beer
       within an hour of kegging.
 
    2. It creates no additional sediment as natural carbonadion does.
 
 
 >From: "John L. Isenhour" <isenhour at lambic.fnal.gov>
 >Subject: Dry Ice carbonating in keg
 
 >I have to agree with Jim on this.  You really should try this yourself and
 gather some empirical data before suggesting it to people who might not know
 better.
 
 All my kegs were full at the time and I just had to lay out the idea.  I got 
 the answer I was looking for and presume anyone who tried it would have sense 
 enough to use a pressure gage and keep an eye on things.  However, that is 
 not what makes lawyer's rich and your point is well taken.
 
                ...........DISCLAIMER.............
 
   IF YOU PUT DRY ICE IN A CLOSED KEG, SUE GOD IF IT BLOWS UP.
 
 >  I have a lot of experience with forced carbonation of water, wine,
 beer and soft drinks, and if you've ever tried gassing beer up to 50psi, you'll
 find that its difficult to even vent the pressure down to dispensing level
 without it blowing out your venting tube.
 
 Here we are going to disagree.  You may be interested to know that I 
 carbonate all my beer at 50 psi.
 
 Why?
 
 1.  My beer is always at basement temp.
 
 2.  I have found that some kegs don't seal properly at low pressure
     and must raised high enough to seal.  This is actually why I quit
     naturally carbonating them.  It seemed to take forever till I 
     found out what was going on.
     
 3.  It's a lot faster.
 
 Having said all that, the important issue is the volume of CO2 absorbed not 
 the pressure it is done at.  One could use 500 psi if the keg would take it 
 and get it done real quickly.  The key is knowing when to quit.
 
 Here is the way I do it:    I purge the keg several times to get all the air 
 out then crank the pressure up to 50 psi and start shaking.  The pressure 
 drops in 10 lb leaps for several minutes.  When it starts slowing down 
 significantly, I turn off the CO2 and shake it down to about 30 psi and turn 
 the gas back on.  If it continues to flow while shaking, I continue to shake. 
 If not, I turn off the gas and let it sit for awhile.  If it has not dropped 
 or I can not shake it down to dispensing pressure after an hour or so, I 
 bleed of the pressure to 20 psi and call it done.
 
 For the record, I dispense through a cold plate with ice on it so my pressure 
 is a little higher than normal but the bottom line is, I have no problem 
 dispensing my beer (in fact I recently bought a Pilsner tap to create foam) 
 and the one thing no one has yet complained about is the carbonation level of 
 my beer.
 
 >From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
 >Subject: That Damned Maltmill
 
 >One real problem: the bolt holding the wooden handle on the crank seems
 to be threaded in such a way that it inevitably comes unscrewed while
 cranking.
 
 All MMs are shipped with one defect just to generate hateful commentary on 
 the Digest to keep me humble.
 
 Seriously, this could be done my email but as there are 700 of them out 
 there, you may not be the only one with this problem.
 
 The thread on the inside of the crank is bunged up with a special tool so 
 that when the knob/handle is screwed in, it can only go so far before 
 tightening in the thread.  I may have been sipping when I did yours but you 
 can mush up the end of the treaded hole a bit with a screwdriver and a 
 hammer.  Just be sure to do the right end (inside).
 
 >It also looks as though I'll need to put rubber feet on my bucket, so
 it doesn't slide and hop around while I'm cranking the mill.
 
 Doing it on the bucket looks a lot easier than it is and depending on the 
 floor surface, it can be like wrestling with an aligator.  I think most 
 people eventually conclude that it works best clamped to a table with the 
 business end hanging over the edge so the grain can fall into a bucket.
 
 Thanks for your humor.
 
 js
 

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 9:20:34 CDT
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: boiling concentrates the wort

Keep in mind that in all-grain brewing you collect sweet wort which
is boiled down to 5 gallons typically.  That is, one of the functions
of boiling is to concentrate the wort.  In a 90-minute or so boil, 
you'll be evaporating the water in the wort.  As an example, a beer
which would have SG of 1.050 at 5 gallons will give a gravity reading
of 1.042 at 6 gallons and 1.036 at 7 gallons.  At 7 gallons, the 
wort is dilute, and when boiled down to 5 gallons, the more or less
same amount of sugars and stuff give the beer a gravity of 1.050.
So, if you collect 7 gallons of wort and take a gravity reading of
1.036, you'll have a 1.050 beer provided you achieve a vigorous
and sustained boil and boil the beer down to 5 gallons.  One last point:
the gravity reading done on the 7 gallon beer should either be done
at 60 degrees F (typically) or should be adjusted for the temperature
of the wort.  An uncorrected gravity reading on hot wort will understate
the specific gravity of the beer.

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 9:29:30 CDT
From: tony at spss.com (Tony Babinec)
Subject: diastatic power of some malts

Here are some numbers on some of the DeWolf-Cosyns malts:

Malt                 color    diastatic power
U.S 2-row (Schreier)  1.78L       131.0
Belgian pilsner       1.8         105
Belgian pale ale      3.2          60
Munich                7.8          50
Aromatic             25            29

Any of these malts is capable of conversion by itself, including
the Aromatic.  Notice that the Schreier has the highest diastatic
power.  Keep in mind that mega-brewers like to use adjuncts such 
as corn in their mash, and are therefore interested in a base malt
with high diastatic power.  The homebrewer can use any of these 
malts alone or in combination.  A typical pale ale malt can be
mashed alone and need not be mashed with a malt of higher diastatic
power.

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 15:20:27 GMT
From: u4imdmre at cpc41.cpc.usace.army.mil (Markham R. Elliott)
Subject: Help, I boiled away the hops

Hello again fellow brewers!

I've returned with a deal you can't refuse....I will continue to call myself
a novice until I've got 2 years of hands-on hombrew experience, but I get to
continue to ask the dumb-s**t novice, extract-brewer questions.  OK?  Knew you
couldn't pass it up. :-)

I have been taking in all the advice I can read, and have taken much of it at
face value, few questions asked, but alas, silly me, I should have known better
without thinking things through.

Case in point, then an urgent request for opinions.

My beers have dramatically improved since that first fateful batch.  Reduced,
then eliminated the use of sugar.  Then came the use of a secondary fermenter.
Then the use of DME, and finally the failed attempt at using DME as a priming
agent.  Longer boils...longer boils...longer boils.  No one reminded me that
when using a hopped extract, the longer you boil, the more you remove what the
hops were put in there for.  No one to blame but myself, should have seen it
coming.  Knew better.  Dealt with essential oils in Organic Chemistry those
many years ago.  Faithfully read the HBD daily, and see cautions about not
boiling away the "hop nose", etc, etc.

Now the plea for help.

Should have guessed why everyone said "not bad, but not bitter enough".  Now 
that I've screwed up another batch (now 3 days in the primary), is there a way
to salvage what I'm sure will be another "bland", hop-lacking brew?  The flavor
of the past few batches has been ok; rich, sort of sweet, but kinda watery and
again, missing a lot of what the hops were there for to begin with.

I have read with increasing interest over the past couple of weeks about "dry
hopping" in the secondary.  Would me adding some high alpha hop pellets to the
secondary be worth the try to put back in what I boiled away ?  Any other 
suggestions (other than throwing it out) will be welcome.  BTW, no more hopped 
kits for this kid, gonna take another step toward what many seem to feel is the
only way to brew.

Noch einmal, bitte!!  Mark
- ----------------------------------------------------------------------
 Markham R. Elliott                 u4imdmre at cpc41.cpc.usace.army.mil
 Information Technology Laboratory                     (601) 634-2921
 Waterways Experiment Station
 Vicksburg, Mississippi  USA
- ---------------------------------------------------------------------- 

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 08:27:37 PDT
From: tima at wv.MENTORG.COM (Tim Anderson)
Subject: Re: Immersion cooler length

I made a change to my immersion chiller that made a noticeable difference.
Like many others I made mine by attaching hose fittings to 25 ft of 3/8 in.
copper tubing and coiling it into a helix (like a fat spring) which I just
set into the boiling wort.  While waiting for the magic occur, I entertained
myself by probing various parts of the wort with my thermometer. There were
huge temperature differences.  The top middle was the hottest by far.

Well, it seemed to me that the chiller is doing the most good where the wort
is hottest, so for the next batch I recoiled the tubing into a spiral (like
the burner on an electric range).  I suspend this maybe an inch below the
surface of the wort.  Since I use a big wide canning kettle, there's lots of
room.  Chilling is much faster.  I can stand there and watch the cold break
material form and fall between the coils to the bottom.  In fact I have to
stand there, because I haven't found a way to suspend it other than by
holding it.  Admittedly a pain, but the faster chilling is easily worth it.


tim
"My two favorite beer styles are Cold and Warm."


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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 08:29:17 -0700
From: sag5004 at yak.ca.boeing.com (Ford Prefect)
Subject: Request for decoction mashing help....

Sorry about posting this to the whole world, but... with all the recent talk
about decoction mashing, I am a bit interested in giving it a try.

a) What books/article/whatever should I read to figure out how it is done?

b) Is there anyone in the Seattle area that is willing to come over and
   help/show/whatever brew a batch.  I seem to be entering my busy season
   with an up coming wedding and the picnic season aproaching :-)

thanks

stuart galt                          boeing computer services
sag5004 at yak.boeing.com               bellvue washington
(206) 865-3764                       or home (206) 361-0190
#include <standard/disclaim.h>
I don't know what they say, they don't know what I say...

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Date:    Wed, 7 Apr 1993 15:47:01 GMT
From: "UARS::COOK" at CDHF1.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Chris Cook)
Subject: Problems with tab characters

Sorry to waste bandwidth with small stuff, but I have to mention about
people's use of tabs.  Please remember that your tab stops may not be mine.
In HBD 1113, for example, Jeff Frane included big tables of recipies, using
lots of tabs.  Well, his tabs don't match mine, and I had to work on his
table extensively to make it readable.  This is the case with almost
everyone's articles that use tabs, signatures, etc.

This is rather like the problem with articles over 80 columns wide.  They
look good to the sender, but suffer in translation.

Chris Cook

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 08:44:09 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: Copper tubing sizes

Since it looks like we may be in for more interesting explorations of
thermohydrodynamics (wort chillers), please be aware that there is a lot
of potential for confusion about pipe (hard) and tubing (soft) sizes.

Soft copper tubing, like we use in most of our chillers, is usually
measured, sold and fitted by o.d. (outside diameter).  Hard pipe, that has
threaded or soldered fittings is measured by i.d. (inside diameter).

To add to the confusion, soft tubing used in refrigeration is sometimes
measured one way and sometimes another.  Also, many chain stores use both
i.d. and o.d. for soft tubing.  This may be a marketing ploy to get
hapless do-it-yourselfers to purchase the wrong fittings to clutter up
their junk drawers :-)

Rounding sizes to nearest 1/8", for soft copper tubing:

O.D.  =   I.D.
1/4"      1/8"
3/8"      1/4"
1/2"      3/8"

Now *I've* probably added to the confusion,

Paul.


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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 08:55 PDT
From: /O=vmspfhou/S=dblewis/DD.SITE=JSCPROFS/ at NASAmail.nasa.gov
Subject: Thanks for the decoction info.


***************************** PROFS Note *****************************
 From: DBLEWIS --VMSPFHOU            Date and time  04/07/93 10:56:34
 To: POSTMAN --NASAMAIL

 FROM: Dennis B. Lewis <InterNet:dblewis at jscprofs.nasa.gov>
 SUBJECT: Thanks for the decoction info.

 Thanks to all who posted info on decoction mashing. I made an American
 pilsener last weekend (my first attempt at an all grain) and got pretty
 mediocre extraction--21ppg using temp-controlled mashing on Klages malt.
 I'll try the same recipe (tastes good from the fermenter) using a decoction
 mash and post the taste test results (it may take a month). Anyway, someone
 wrote that some of the big breweries like Pilsener Urquell still use decoction
 mashing. How on earth do they remove the grains from the mash tun? They must
 have to boil hundreds of pounds of grain. Anybody taken a tour?

 Dennis B. Lewis (713) 483-9145  **  NASA/JSC/DH65 Payload Ops
 Homebrew, The Final Frontier.


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Date: Wed,  7 Apr 93 10:55:16 MDT
From: "Steve Kurka" <kurka at bmcw.com>
Subject: Questions

I have a few questions:
This may be an uninsignificant question, but so what:
I would like to upgrade to a glass carboy soon, but don't know whether to go 
with a 5 gallon or 6.5-7 gallon carboy. What are the advantages of each size?
( Ex: - no blowoff tubes needed to large sizes
      - no blowoff tubes on large size to blowoff stuff (but what stuff?))

Does anyone have more info on sulfites not killing bacteria?

Does anyone have simple ideas on cheap filtration methods?

I would also like to thank all who sent me lists of San Fransisco 
brewpubs recently, the trip was a success (good beer).

Thanks, Steve		kurka at bmcw.com

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 13:06:31 -0500 (CDT)
From: brewmstr at genesis.mcs.com (Jim Bayer)
Subject: Runaway Ferment... HELP!!!

I've been brewing for about 2 years now and just did my first all-grain
batch 2 weeks ago.  Until now I've never seen a ferment go so
strongly and so long.

My grain bill is as follows:

6lb 2 row Klages
2lb Special Roast
1lb German Light crystal
1lb Cara-pils

I used Wyeast Irish Ale (forget the number), Northern Brewer, Cascade and
Hallertau hops.

Since it was my first all-grain batch, I expected it to take me longer, and it
did.  My sparge ran about 2.5 hours (trouble with the Listermann system) and
I ended up with some (very little) grain in the brewpot.  The edges of the false
bottom did not seal very well for me.

I tasted the outut from the sparge and it seemed ok.  I boiled it for about 1.5 
hours and added the Irish moss 10 minutes before turning off the heat.  I used
a submersion chiller for the first time and got the temp down to about 65^F
in 20 minutes.  I pitched the yeast (no starter alas) and waited.

As a preamble, I should say I cleaned and soaked everything I used, spoon,
primary bucket, hoses, etc. in bleach solution.  I made it a little too strong
(used about 1 to 1.5 cups to 5 gallons) so I rinsed everything before use.  I
soaked it all for 15 to 30 minutes before the rinse.

I filled the primary, stirred vigorously for aeration and pitched, closed the
lid, sealed it tight and set up the air lock.

After 3 days of fermenting (took 36 hrs to start), I raked to the secondary
and thought it would finish in a few days.  To my surprise, it went to full
kreausen AGAIN and is still giving me 1 blip per second after 10 days.  I
checked it last night and the secondary is still at full boil.

Am I infected?  Is it the yeast?  What is going on??

I did notice that the wort was REALLY REALLY SWEET.  Never tasted one so
sweet before.  could it be the yeast are still feasting?  OG was 1.040

Any input will be greatly appreciated

Jim
brewmstr at genesis.mcs.com


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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 13:54 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Eternal ferment/how long does CO2 last?

Kirk writes:
>A few weeks ago, I asked you what you thought about my 'nonstop fermentation'
>and the concensus was that I should not throw the stuff out but check the
>airlock and the S.G.  I won't print the recipe again.  Suffice to say it's
>an extract brew with half a pound of maple syrup and 2 oz of apricot
>flavoring intended for wines, and Edme dry yeast.
>
>Update: now after eight weeks, it ain't over.  The airlock is still giving
>a feeble 'glug' once every 70 seconds.  The color got noticeably darker.
>No off flavors to suggest contamination. Specific gravity down to about 1.009
>(I think).

Recently, I had, what appeared to be headed for a record-breaking ferment.
It was a simple 1048 English Ale using Wyeast #1028 "London Ale."  Well,
the problem started when I got married.  No, don't get me wrong, my wife
is wonderful and very supportive of my brewing and related endeavors. 
However, when she got a look at one of our gas bills, she suggested we
lower our thermostat, from 72F to 68F.  I agreed.

I started my batch as ususal with a 500ml starter and pitched the 70F
starter into well-aerated, 70F wort.  I put it in the fermentation room
just like I used to and proceeded to not worry.  Well, I had forgotten
about my wife's cost-saving measures and failed to look at the 9" diameter
thermometer in the fermentation room.  It said 61F!

Two days and no kraeusen.  That's when the temperature dawned on me.
I brought the fementer up into the study (68F), closed the shades and
covered the fermenter with a couple of dark brown plastic garbage bags
to prevent light damage.  The next morning, although the fermentation
had started, I still thought it was too bright in there and closed the
door.  Guess what, the closet is not insulated and the temperature dropped
to 60F by that evening.  Fermentation back to a standstill.  I opened the
door and put some cardboard around the fermenter.

10 days later, it was still fermenting slowly at about 30 seconds between
glubs.  20 days from the start of the ferment, it had gotten down to a
minute between glubs, so I added the dryhops (1oz of Goldings plugs).

10 days of dryhopping, still 1 glub/min.  14 days of dryhopping, still
1 glub/min.  Hmmm?  Is this yeast brain-damaged or what?

Then, I thought, perhaps a lot of the yeast had gone dormant thanks to
the cold and had not awakened from simply warming the wort.  I rocked
the carboy around-and-around to swirl the yeast up from the bottom.
Naturally, lots of CO2 started escaping through the blowoff tube.  8 hours
later, the ferment was going at a good pace, perhaps 1 glub per 30 seconds.
24 hours after swirling, the glubs were 2.5 minutes apart -- ready to bottle!

I came up with this thought to rouse the yeast from what I've read about
yeast rousing used in some very strong beers (Thomas Hardy's may be one,
I'm not sure).  Next time a ferment is taking longer than you expected,
try rousing the yeast (without aeration, of course -- I just swirled my
airlocked carboy).

********************
Chris writes:
>On another note, how long should I expect my 20lb CO2 tank to last?  I got
>it last summer and have made at least 10 batches of beer since then.  I
>also use it to push the sterilizer out of the keg when cleaning it.  The
>pressure gauge for the high side hasn't really moved.

I have a 20# tank, but it hasn't run out yet since I got the leaks fixed.
The first filling only lasted perhaps 10 kegs, but the second is well over
20 and still going.  It's very important to change that washer between the
valve and the regulator with each filling -- it's a common source for
leaks.  Regarding the high-pressure side gauge, I'll stick my neck out and
say I think it's useless.  It won't begin to drop till all the liquid
CO2 has run out and has turned to gas.  Then it will drop to zero in one
or two days.  That's not my idea of warning you that it's about to run out!
I plan to weigh my tank the next time it runs out and use it's weight
as an approximation for when I should go get it refilled.  It should weigh,
well... 20# more when full (for a "20#" tank).

Al.

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Date: 07 Apr 1993 15:48:10 -0500 (CDT)
From: ATKINSON at vaxb.acs.unt.edu
Subject: Follow-up: Tower System

I promised a posting of comments made on the Tower System, and am
glad to do so!  Thanks to everyone who showed interest.  My initial
impression is that the Tower System is a good idea because there were no
flames.  However, it may be because of the limited experience that people
have with this system.  I'm still putting my system together (working on
limited funds, you know) and will let everyone know what I think after its
up and running and the little kinks have been worked out.  So some of the
replies:

1.     Stuart Galt suggested that I build a welded steel rack with wheels
       to house the tower so that it could be moved around for brewing
       and storage.  Sound like a great idea, but since I have a hammer
       and saw, but not a welder, I built my rack out of 2 by 4's and 3/4
       inch plywood.  I used Simpson Strong-Tie (TM) connectors to
       make sure that there was plenty of strength to hold 10 gallons of
       hot sparge water and mash (if you haven't seen these connectors,
       they are great for building work tables and shelves - ask your
       hardware store about them).  Also, by planning for my glass 6.5
       gallon fermentor to sit on the ground and allowing the kettle to
       gravity drain into it, the mash/lauter tun to drain into the kettle,
       and the hot water tank to drain into the mash/lauter tun, I designed
       the rack so that nothing with hot water ever has to be lifted (other
       than pumping from the kettle up to the hot water tank).  Thus, my
       rack has a working surface 45 inches above the ground for the
       mash/lauter tun to sit on, and a shelf 20 inches higher (a total of
       65 inches above the ground) for the hot water tank to sit on.  This
       allows me to slide the mash/lauter tun underneath the hot water
       tank when I'm not brewing so that I've got a work bench. 
       However, since my mash/lauter tun in 16" tall (a 58 quart Igloo
       cooler), and it sits on top of a 45" high shelf, it is a too tall for
       even my 6'2" body to work with.  Therefore, I built a 10"
       platform that I can stand on when stirring the mash.  This platform
       simply slides underneath the rack when not in use.


       My rack, from the side, looks something like the sketch below.  
          
        60"  ------                   The rack is designed so
             |    |                   that when I'm not brewing
             |    |                   everything (kettle, burner,
             -------------- 45"       coolers, etc. slides over
             |    |       |           to the left hand side, and
             |    |       |           I have a work bench on the
             |    ---------           right hand side.
             |    |       |
             |    |       |
             --------------
             |    |       |



2.     Rich Lenihan had several comments and suggestions.

       a.    Rich suggested that I pub a rolled screen/tube inside the
             kettle (like the EasyMasher (TM)) to filter out hops and
             trub.  An excellent idea that I have included.

       b.    Rich also was concerned about heat loss along the way, and
             that perhaps by preheating the system prior to mashing, this
             problem might be eliminated.  I checked with several
             people and using a picnic cooler for the hot water tank will
             hold the temperature to less than a couple of degrees heat
             loss over the few hours necessary.  Thus, preheating should
             probably not be necessary.  Also, Rich reminded me that
             Papazian has a grain bill/water temperature/water volume
             chart so that I can use that for a guideline.  I looked, and
             sure enough, it will be usefull!

3.     Bob Hodge suggested that instead of two manifolds in the
       mash/lauter tun, that only the lower one be used, and that mash
       water can be introduced from the bottom (underletting) like a
       recent thread had suggested.  I like this idea, and will implement
       it,  but I still will need the upper manifold for sparging.


A few people had questions about what I was going to use for high
temperature hose, what kind of fittings I was going to use, etc.  I
mentioned Grainger's and McMaster's supply catalogs for sources.

Finally, this post was originally to the Home Brew Digest, and not
rec.crafts.brewing.  So now, I am posting both the original and this
follow-up post to rec.crafts.brewing to see if there are any other
suggestions.

Thanks to all for the ideas!

Sam Atkinson


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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 16:35 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Enzyme potential

Thomas writes:
>Does anybody know of the enzyme potential of Belgian 2-row pale
>ale malt from Dewolf-Cosyns? Would I need to mash with some
>Klages to get quicker conversion? Thanks in advance.

Sure, it's 60 degrees Lintner.  I don't think you would get much of
a increase in conversion -- you certainly would not *NEED* to add
anything.  By the way, Klages hasn't been grown in the US for (I
believe) two seasons -- Harrington is what most (all?) of the brewing
barley growers are producing.  If your supplier is advertising Klages,
either they don't know what they are selling or are selling very old
malt.

Al.

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Date:     Wed, 7 Apr 1993 14:49 MST
From: 2 <A317-475 at lab.bus.utah.edu>
Subject:  kiwi wine

Here is an experimental recipe I came across and it actually worked.
This is for all you wine lovers.
This recipe need not be followed exactly and even if you do I doubt you'll
get the same result twice. 
Get a 1 gallon jug, empty milk jugs work great. Be sure to clean it good
otherwise you'll end up with vinegar, not wine.
Clean the jug with a tablespoon of bleach and 3 cups water.  Swish it around
for a few minutes.
Take about 2 1/2 lbs. of fresh kiwi and put it through a juicer. If you don't
have a juicer just smash it up and use the pulp and all. In this case you'll
need to avoid the lower 1/3 of your wine when you drain the wine from the
container.
Put the kiwi juice, or pulp, into the container.  Add 2-3 cups of sugar and 1
tablespoon of yeast.  fill the jug almost full with distilled water.  Regular
water will work but it increases the chance of having a bacteria which will
produce vinegar.
Cover container lightly, it must be able to "breathe" but not have stuff fall
into it.  Leave sit in a semi-cool place and wait a)1 month for harsh wine,
or b)2-3 months for a smooth wine your freinds will love you for!!!!!
Any questions about kiwi wine a317-475 at edu-utah-bus-lab

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 1993 18:04:32 -0400
From: Alan Christopher Braddock <braddock at wam.umd.edu>
Subject: Vermont brews and brewpubs

Hi there, homebrewers.  Another brewing/email neophyte here with a query
out of left field.  Any answers would be greatly appreciated.  I'm planning
a trip to Burlington, Vermont in early June and I'd love to know where to
eat and what to wash it down with.  I only know about Catamount (it is
Catamount, isn't it?), but if anyone can suggest a brewpub or two, I'd be
grateful.  It doesn't have to be in Burlington -- it's a small state and I
don't mind doing the Euell Gibbons thing, stalking the wild fermenter, etc.

                                               Alan Braddock
                                               BRADDOCK at WAM.UMD.EDU
                                               (in Baltimore)

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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 16:34 EST
From: LYONS at adc3.adc.ray.com
Subject: Problem with initial SG value?

 >Mashed in 2 gallons of distilled water at ~154 for 1.25 hours at which time 
 >the iodine test was negative.  The pH of mash was around 5.2.  Used a Zapap 
 >type lauter tun with grain bag.  Recirculated about 0.5 gallons.  Used 
 >distilled water for sparging.  Placed a pie plate on top of grain bed and 
 >added water at about 165.  Also mashed out at 170.  Sparged till gravity was 
 >1.008 .Ph of run off was still around 5.5.  Collected about 7 gallons of 
 >wort.  Gravity after boiling down to about 6 gallons was only 1.028.  Where 
 >did I go wrong?

I'm not sure you did anything wrong.  SG is a function of 
temperature.  So if you read an SG of 1.028 at 212F, that would 
be equivalent to an SG of 1.068 at 60F (which sounds great to 
me).  Its common practice to record the temperature and SG 
simultaneously, and then correct the SG for a temperature of 60F 
(actually I normalize to 59F).


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Date: Wed, 7 Apr 93 17:08:25 EDT
From: eisen at kopf.HQ.Ileaf.COM (Carl West)
Subject: Re: Heading Agent

Phil relates:

>My local homebrew shop also sells small packets of off-white
>"heading agent."  I didn't ask the manufacturer's name, but I
>did ask about the contents:  "ground bark of the gum acacia
>tree" I was told. 

Close. It is probably gum arabic, the dried sap of the acacia 
plant, not the bark itself. It's used as a thickening agent, 
to seal envelopes, and hold stamps on.

Carl 
WISL,BM.

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Date: Wed, 07 Apr 93 19:30:33 CDT
From: If wishes were cows at iastate.edu,
Subject: Re:miles of troooob

>From HBD#1114 Steve Rowell ponders,

>I brewed a scotch ale last night,  and noticed today a curious thing.
>On the bottom of the carboy lies a thick (4-5 inches) layer of trub.

Other stuff deleted

>For those out there interested in this mystery:

>I used pellets not whole hops and partial mash with
>3#syrup/3#dry extract and 1#munich/1#crystal/ 1/2# roasted.
>Any comments/ helpful words of wisdom?

I beleive, and I am only guessing, it was the pellet hops, I used those in a 
cotton hop bag, and received a huge mess for my trouble.  No the bag didnt 
break when it swelled.

I funneled into the primary through a "fine" screen, which quickly clogged.

John Bartleson

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Date: 07 Apr 1993 13:00:13 GMT
From: "Tom Stolfi" <ceco!CWEMAIL!WAUTS at uunet.UU.NET>
Subject: Rauchbier

Date: 04/05/93
From: Tom Stolfi                                 wauts - cwe1iin
Subject: Rauchbier
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hello all,

I am going to make a one gallon mini-batch of rauchbier for this summer.
Rather than smoke some malt I was considering using the "LIQUID SMOKE"
available in the grocery stores.  Has anyone used this?  If so, how much
did you use and at what point in the process did you add it.  I am planning
a light amber beer with OG around 1.050 and hopping with Tett or Saaz.
Any helpful comments or recipes would be greatly appreciated.  Thanks.


Tom Stolfi                                   wauts at cwemail.ceco.ceco.com
Commonwealth Edison Co                       Waukegan, IL

































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Date: Thu,  8 Apr 93 02:30:59 PDT
From: Pat Lasswell <patl at microsoft.com>
Subject: Decoction mashing vs Infusion Mashing

My brew-partner and I have done a side-by-side comparison of
identical brews, one decoction mashed and the other step-infusion
mashed.

The differences were slight.  The main difference was notably
more malt aroma in the decoction-mashed beer.  One of our
club refers to decoction mashed beers as tasting "wet".  I know
what he is noticing, but I do not have vocabulary to describe
such a suble effect.

Ars Zymurgia
Pat Lasswell
patl at microsoft.com
Redmond, WA

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Date: 08 Apr 1993 11:01:45 -0300
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Coriolis force

Karl Sweitzer writes:

>I have found that the best vortex drains are formed when you swirl the bottle
>or carboy in a counterclockwise direction (when viewed from above, in the
>northern hemisphere of our spaceship earth).  The reason is the coriolis
>acceleration vector caused by the counterclockwise rotation of the earth.
>When you rotate the bottle in the same direction as the earth rotation
>the coriolis acceleration vectors constructively add, forming a greater
>force on the liquid molecules.  The coriolis acceleration vector tends
>to force the liquid to the outside of the rotation circle leaving room
>in the middle of the bottle for air to enter and replace the exiting liquid.
>This air path is more efficient than "gurgleing" air entering the bottle as
>periodic bubbles.  (note, for those of you in the southern hemisphere, rotate
>the bottle in the clockwise direction. For those at the equator, rotate in
>either direction.)  Some say that the coriolis accel. vector makes pigs tails
>curl (no kidding!).  I have seen pictures of pigs from Equador with straight
>tails!

	To this I can but say:  Horse poop.  The coriolois force on the 
liquid in a carboy 30cm or so in diameter is virtually nil.  Swirl it any 
way you please, there will be no difference.  The friction of the side of 
the jug is far greater than any coriolis effects on the water.  As for the 
pigs, they can poop too.  
	ed

  ------------
  Ed Hitchcock				*-----------------------*
  Dept of Anatomy and Neurobiology	| 			|
  Dalhousie University 			|     JUST BREW IT	|
  Halifax, Nova Scotia			|			|
  ech at ac.dal.ca				*-----------------------*

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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1993 10:10 EST
From: Carlo Fusco <G1400023 at NICKEL.LAURENTIAN.CA>
Subject: Re: chiller lenght

Hello everyone,

I am here to back up some of John's claims. I also use a 15 ft chiller. It 
is 3/4 inch diameter, the water is 38F, and it will chill 5 gallons in 20-25 
min.

It is true about the chilling effect slowing down as the wort approches the 
chilling water temperature. But, by then I am already below 70F and I am 
ready to pitch my yeast.

>From Northern Ontario where water is found in abundance and wort chiller 
materials are expensive.
Carlo

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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 1993 10:19:23 -0400 (EDT)
From: David C Mackensen <cygnus at unh.edu>
Subject: boiling exploitation

Hi,
	How much does boiling change the malt... i.e. I know that you
should boil the malt for a little bit to sanitize it, but...

what if I were just to have plain water in my boil with the hops and
then add the malt into said boil long enough to sanitize it at the
end... of course adding the appropriate irish moss or whatever...then
cool and pitch like normal...

would this affect the taste of my bier (mackensen extra stout:) )?
thanks,
 -chris
- --. 
- -- Chris Mackensen (dcm2 at kepler.unh.edu or puck at unh.edu)

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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 93 08:32:27 -0600
From: Kelly Jones <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>
Subject: Re: Wine and Oxidation

In HBD #1113, Jack Scmidling says:

>We all know what evils to expect of beer that gets oxidized after fermenting 
>and the need for quiet racking and transfer.  However, wine drinkers also 
>know that good red wine needs to "breathe", which of course is, a snob word 
>for oxidize.
 
>I have also seen several references to the fact that one of the reasons for 
>racking wine at regular intervals is to promote oxidation.  Clearly, we have 
>a conflict here and my Fall Wine is now in the aging stage and it would be 
>nice to know if I should intentionally splash it around while racking or use 
>the usual beer cautions.

First, there is a difference (if only semantically) between breathing,
which refers to the exposure of wine to air immediately before
consuming, and aging, which is done either in bulk or in bottle, but
before uncorking.

As to breathing: There is no general agreement on why (or even
whether!)  breathing is beneficial.  Some feel it releases the aroma of
the wine, or helps dispel volatile compounds (such as SO2) which may
mask aroma and flavor.  Others feel it is desirable to oxidize a
certain portion of the phenols (e.g., tannins), especially if the wine
is big and young.

As far as aging goes, oxidation is definitely involved. However, slow,
controlled oxidation is what we want, as it tends to oxidize metallic
ions, phenols, etc., improving the wine.  It is generally believed that
too rapid oxidation (as may result from splashing, etc) will tend to
oxidize other components instead, such as alcohols, leading to
undesirable byproducts such as aldehydes, etc.

Remember that as a home winemaker, your wine is already getting much
more oxygen than commercial wines, due to the much higher surface
area/volume ratio present in small scale operations.  IMHO, your wine
will be oxidized enough just by such things as airspace in your carboy
or bottle, normal exposure to air during gentle racking, etc. Any
intentional splashing may be overkill.

Disclaimer: Little is really known (or agreed upon) about the mechanism
of oxidation, aging, breathing, etc. In the end, your own experience
and evaluations will have to guide you.

Hope this helps,

Kelly Jones  <k-jones at ee.utah.edu>

*** I make my own beer AND wine --- I'm  crosstraining!! ***

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Date:         Thu, 08 Apr 93 10:31:55 EDT
From: Bridget Cullinan <BCULLIN at american.edu>
Subject:      hard cider brewing

Dear Homebrewers:

Having once lived in the south of England and fell in love with English cider (
hard cider), I want to find out if anyone else out there has tried to brew thei
r own.  I'm looking for good recipes for "dry" English-style cider, not the swe
et overly-carbonated [I think] stuff like the Vermont Woodchuck cider.  So, if
anyone is interested in the idea, I can offer a few suggestions, but so far I h
ave stuck to brewing from a Boots Country Cider kit -- which is very good, by t
he way, but only available in England.
Please send any info to me at BCULLIN at auvm.american.edu.  Thanks.  Bridget

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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 93 09:23:20 -0500
From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
Subject: Lee Menegoni

Lee> I got your e-mail, and sent you my answers to your questions. I
got a response from nectech that lee=a.=menegoni at nectech.com was not
a good address. Do you have another one?

George Fix



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Date: 08 Apr 1993 07:50:07 PST
From: "JSDAWS1 at PROFSSR" <JSDAWS1 at PB1.PacBell.COM>
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1115 (April 08, 1993)

*** Reply to note of 04/08/93 00:21
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1115 (April 08, 1993)
I've seen several posts re; dry-hopping.  I always get krauesen in the 2ndary
when dry-hopping and have come to accept it as normal.  I've also taken to
using hop plugs.  They provide the advantage of pellets in terms of convenience
and of whole hops in that I seem to get better aroma from them (as I seem to
with whole hops) with none of that ubiquitous green sludge clogging the carboy
neck.  Only problem is, they're slightly too large to fit thru the neck so I
end up cutting them in half with a steak knife.  I put them in a boiled hop
bag with marbles.  This usually prevents it from rising to the top and clogging
things up.

On another topic... keg-conditioning,  I always keg-condition my beer, and by
trial end error, have found that 1/2 the normal priming sugar recomended for
bottling works best.

|    If it's good for ancient druids runnin naked thru the woods      |
|   drinkin strange fermented fluids then it's good enough for me.    |
| JACK DAWSON  -  JSDAWS1  -  415 545-0299  -  CUSTOMER BILLING  (BG) |

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Date: Thu, 8 Apr 93 07:58 PDT
From: /O=vmspfhou/S=dblewis/DD.SITE=JSCPROFS/ at NASAmail.nasa.gov
Subject: Givin' carboys a swirly


***************************** PROFS Note *****************************
 From: DBLEWIS --VMSPFHOU            Date and time  04/08/93 09:59:07
 To: POSTMAN --NASAMAIL

 FROM: Dennis B. Lewis <InterNet:dblewis at jscprofs.nasa.gov>
 SUBJECT: Givin' carboys a swirly

 From: Karl A. Sweitzer

 >I have found that the best vortex drains are formed when you swirl the
 >bottle or carboy in a counterclockwise direction (when viewed from above, in
 >the northern hemisphere of our spaceship earth).

 OK, I haven't tried this but, I assume that when you start swirling the water
 in the carboy, that the carboy is already inverted (and over the sink/lawn).
 If you get up a good swirl and then try to invert the carboy, you would really
 goof up your swirl when the carboy gets horizontal. Plus the rotational
 inertia of 3+ gallons of water spinning fast enough to hug the sides would be
 impressive when you tried to flip it around.I think it just needed to be said.

 *** Physics disclaimer ***
 It has been years since my last physics course. I wasn't there, I wasn't
 drinking, and it's not my fault. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

 Dennis B. Lewis (713) 483-9145  **  NASA/JSC/DH65 Payload Ops
 Homebrew, The Final Frontier.


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1116, 04/09/93