FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  secondary/half-batch/Texas brewpubs (Bill Othon.LinCom)
  Darker with age... (FSAC-FCD) <dward at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
  PET and GC ("Anthony Johnston")
  Blindness again ("Westemeier*, Ed")
  Re: Acronyms (Lou Casagrande)
  Re:  Adding fruit to the secondary (Jeff Benjamin)
  All About Beer (Joseph Gareri)
  Re: Musings on Commercial Beer (Stephen Brent Peters)
  "Quarf" (ulrich)
  where have all my fermentables gone??? (David L. Kensiski)
  Molassas help (Mark Taratoot)
  More Anchor (Mark Garetz)
  1st batch problem(?) (weissborn)
  another question on sugars (Peter Maxwell)
  Re: Belgian souvenirs (Brian Davis)
  Re: Lallemand/Adding fruit (korz)
  Cleveland competition mystery (WESTEMEIER)
  Draught packaging; hop growth (Garrett Hildebrand)
  Hershey's chocolate syrup in beer (Steve Kenshulo)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 14 May 93 08:02 CDT
From: othon at ial7.jsc.nasa.gov (Bill Othon.LinCom)
Subject: secondary/half-batch/Texas brewpubs

I have a couple of questions for the group:

1) How long is too long in the secondary fermenter? I have
been reading that some people leave it for only a week, using
SG as a guide apparently. Recently I dry-hopped in the primary
(based on a Cat's Meow recipe) and after a week in the
secondary, there was at least an inch of "mung" at the bottom
of the carboy (I assume hops and yeastees). I decided to leave 
the beer in for the usual 3-4 weeks.  Could this have been bad? 
I haven't tasted the final product yet to be sure, but i am 
pleased with the clarity of my beer to date.

2) Does anyone have a good half-batch all-grain recipe? I tried
an all-grain last year with two brewkettles over a gas stove, and
while it came out alright, it was a hassle. I'd like to get my
feet wet with some small scale stuff (which also allows for
easier experimentation if desired). For this type of batch, i
guess i use half the dried yeast package, or half the wyeast
starter.

On another note:
The battle for Texas rages on! After some strange schnanigans, the
bill with the amendment to allow brewpubs in Texas has passed the
house, and it's on to the senate. Someday an HBDer will have a
business meeting in Houston and ask if there are brewpubs, and
we'll be able to say "Hell, yes!".

Hoping for a Seattle-like beer culture in Houston
 -Bill

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Date:     Fri, 14 May 93 9:03:23 EDT
From: "Darren L. Ward" (FSAC-FCD) <dward at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Darker with age...

	Is discoloration (darkening) a typical result from "light
exposure"???  I brewed a batch which when originally bottled was
much lighter in color than it is now.  The beer is in "Mason" jars,
with double gaskets/liners to better the seal.  (It worked).  I
had a problem with the initial conditioning of the beer, (very
little carbonation), but when I removed the jars from the fridge
for a couple of weeks and then re-refirdgerated them, the bubbles
were finally there (I'd brewed the batch 1.5 yrs ago, thought I
was a victim of novice errors, hate to throw things out, and only
recently read about re-conditioning carbonation-less beer to bring
the bubbles back.)  Anyway, back to the color inquiry, would the 
darkening be the result of light exposure, age, and is 
incandescent light a threat???

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Date: Fri, 14 May 93 8:49:37 CDT
From: "Anthony Johnston" <anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu>
Subject: PET and GC

In regards to the recent discussion of the use of PET (2 litre soda)
bottles and the proper filling thereof, I would think that one should
fill them the normal amount (0.5" headspace).  You would not want to
compress the bottle before filling because then the CO2 formed would go
towards reforming the bottle to its normal volume, not carbonation (flat
beer).  Also, at the pressures involved with naturally carbonated
beverages, the expansion of the PET would be miniscule.  As a side note,
I would mention that a homebrew kit sold by Price Club in California
last winter (I don't remember the brand, but it came with Cooper's
extract) came with plastic caps for PET bottles.  I do not know where
one would buy these, as my local homebrew shop (Brew and Grow) doesn't
carry them, but I would think that one of the larger mail order supply
houses would carry them.  I'm not sure if one would want to reuse them
or not (you can't boil them, because they will probably deform, and the
seal inside may be porous enough to absorb som of your sanitizing
solution.  Also, the clarity of the material is worrisome if you do not
store your beer in the dark.

Do any of you scientists out there know about measuring components in
beer by gas chromatography?  I am wondering about the following:
Will the unfermented sugars in the beer crap out my column?  If so,
after how many injections?
What kind of column should I use?  Polar or non-polar?  (My guess is
polar, like a PEG column?)
Has anyone determined the proper settings for temperature and flow?
Ramping?  What are the probable RT's for common components (EtOH, DMS,
DMSO, diacetyl, etc?)

I could put the effort into determining the above, but right now time is
at a premium and I would hate to reinvent the wheel if someone else has
done the work.  If there isn't anyone who has done this before and I do
invest the effort, how many of you would be interested in my results?
Private e-mail please.

Tony Johnston
Chemist, Homebrewer, Lazyman

anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu

done the work

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Date: 14 May 1993 08:31:16 U
From: "Westemeier*, Ed" <westemeier at pharos-tech.com>
Subject: Blindness again

There has been enough comment about blindness being caused by improper
distillation of alcohol recently, without any definitive answers, that
I'm beginning to suspect we're dealing with an urban legend.

So, FWIW, here's my "data" point:

My grandfather had several friends who produced and sold a 
considerable quantity of distilled spirits during Prohibition.  He
once told me that the conventional wisdom of the time was that the
blindness often mentioned was caused by improper chilling procedure.

Specifically, many amateur distillers used automobile radiators as
heat exchangers.  As the wort (or whatever, I'm not an expert) went
through the coils of the radiator, it picked up contamination from
the lead solder used in its construction.  Lead is the cause of so
many other health problems related to lead poisoning in the blood that
I'm inclined to believe this may be the actual source of the story.

Now, if you'll excuse me, I have to dry off my cat in the microwave.

Ed Westemeier  -- Cincinnati, OH  -- westemeier at delphi.com


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Date: Fri, 14 May 93 10:45:48 EDT
From: casagran at gdstech.grumman.com (Lou Casagrande)
Subject: Re: Acronyms

Elaine,

You wrote,

> In HBD1137 May 10, Lou Casagrane ins his reply to Jay refers to
> recipes from TNCJOHB. Please what does that stand for? Can I get
> these recipes? I am new to the list and the acronyms are not making
> sense. Is there a list of acronyms and their meanings someone can
> send me or post to the list? TIA (there is at least one I know),
> Elaine

TNCJOHB is _The New Complete Joy of Home Brewing_, by Charlie
Papazian, which many of us (especially we neo-brewers) find helpful,
although evidently there are quite a few texts out there. Although
TNCJOHB does have ~some~ recipes, a larger source is _The Cat's Meow_
on sierra.stanford.edu in the homebrew directory. I haven't made any
of them yet, though, so I can't vouch for them. I have been happy with
all the recipes I've made from TNCJOHB (in addition to the Dark Sleep
Stout and the Sparrowhawk Porter, last year I made the Palilalia India
Pale Ale), and I would make any or all of them again.

As for a list of acronyms, I think there's a general list of internet
acronyms somewhere at Info-mac (sumex-aim.stanford.edu), but that
won't include specialized HBD acronyms. BTW, what ~does~ TIA mean?

Yours in Brewing,
Lou Casagrande
casagran at gdstech.grumman.com


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Date: Fri, 14 May 93 9:36:58 MDT
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re:  Adding fruit to the secondary

> I would caution against adding anything acidic (like the
> citrous fruits), because it will kill your yeast and give you
> a flat brew.  In one of my earlier batches, I added a bit of
> orange peel to "liven up" the end product.  Complete failure...

I suspect that something else was wrong with that batch.  I've made a
number of spiced beers using the zest of up to 4 or 5 oranges and never
had any trouble.  There's even one classic beer style, Belgian Wit (or
White), that's traditionally spiced with corriander and orange.

I've also made raspberry, blueberry, and cherry beers, and I'm sure
other folks can recount experience with even more adventurous
ingredients.  I usually just weed out any truly fuzzy fruits, rinse them
in a bisulfite solution, then puree and add to the secondary (and watch
the yeast go bonkers with all that sugar!).  I've never had an infection
problem this way.  As long as the rest of your sanitation technique is
good, you should have no problems.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at hpfcla.fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Fri, 14 May 93 12:23:21 -0400
From: jpgareri at acs.bu.edu (Joseph Gareri)
Subject: All About Beer


I have a question I hope to get some help with.  I have been subscribing
to _All About Beer_ for a couple of years.  For Christmas, I decided to
give a gift subscription to a friend and to augment my subscription to
include _Suds and Stuff_.  The problem is despite repeated calls to Mike
Bozak, none of my subscriptions have started coming.  I even spoke to
a representative at the Boston Brewers Festival, and still nothing.

Since I have not been charged for the issues, I suspect they have not
received my order, but each time I call, I am assured that they have 
it in the records and all is well.

Questions:

1) Does anyone out there think either of these magazines are worth 
   the trouble?		

2) I subscribe to _American Brewer_ too, and like it a lot.  I just wish
   it came out more than once a quarter.  Does anyone recommed other
   magazines to use in place of _AAB_?  

3) Are there any beer related magazines that are more east coast?

4) Are the newspapers like _Yankee Brew News_ worth the subscription?

Thanks for your help,

Joe Gareri

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Date: Fri, 14 May 1993 12:39:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Stephen Brent Peters <sp2q+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Musings on Commercial Beer


Another comercial beer surprise is J.J. Wainright's which is produced
by the Pittsburgh Brewing Company (Iron City & *ha* Sam Adams).  I
wasn't expecting much, given IC and IC light etc.  But... Surprise!
It's damn good beer!  I can't vouch for how it is going to taste after
it sits in the trucks for a few weeks getting to the stores in your
city, but here in its home town it is quite nice.

               Steve Peters =  sp2q at andrew.cmu.edu             
                  *Oxnar demands a _Sacrifice!_*                      

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Date: Fri, 14 May 1993 10:28:12 -0800
From: ulrich at sfu.ca
Subject: "Quarf"

Gary Cote asked about:

> "Quarf" A Russin beer made from rye.

Someone was confusing kvas (also spelled kvass), a Russian beer made from
rye or barley, with quaff, an English verb meaning to drink heartily. I
suspect you'll have no trouble getting info under the correct spelling. I
learned the word in high school Russian class (and remembered it twenty
years later!). It's even in my English dictionary.

        --Charles Ulrich


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Date: Fri, 14 May 93 10:32:56 -0700
From: kensiski at nas.nasa.gov (David L. Kensiski)
Subject: where have all my fermentables gone???

Last week my brew partner and I made a batch of Winky Dink Marzen, as
described by Pappazian in TCJOHB (page 164 in the first edition).
Everything seemed to be going fine.  It had a starting gravity of
1.043 and fermented happily away at room temperature, peaking at about
a burble every two seconds.

At least everything was OK until last night when we racked to the
secondary for lagering.  When we opened the fermenter, the beer
smelled funny.  I might describe it as a skunky smell, but I've not
got a terribly keen nose for these things.  I thought it tasted
alright, though my parner claimed he could "taste" the smell in his
mouth.

Another oddity was that the specific gravity had dropped to 1.004!
There is no sugar left in this stuff!  Those yeast must have sure had
a good time in that brew!

So that leaves me with a couple of questions.  First, what could have
caused the smell?  Will it go away over time, or are we going to be
stuck drinking this batch with our noses plugged?  Second, what about
the lack of sugar?  Is it worth lagering the beer if there's nothing
left for the yeasties to eat?  Should we just go ahead and bottle it?

Our current strategy is to lager the beer at about 48 degrees for a
couple or three weeks and see what we have then.  Any other ideas?

- --Dave
________________________________________________________________________
David L. Kensiski [KB6HCN]              Numerical Aerodynamic Simulation
kensiski at nas.nasa.gov               NASA Ames Research Center, M/S 258-6   
(415)604-4417                       Moffett Field, California 94035-1000


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Date: 14 May 1993 11:33:13 -0600 (MDT)
From: Mark Taratoot <SLNDW at CC.USU.EDU>
Subject: Molassas help

Howdy Ho!

I threw together a kind of strange brew last night and need a suggestion.
The beer so far is:
1/2 pound 40 L crystal
1/2 pound 110 L crystal
1/4 pound Black Patent Malt
1/4 pound Roasted Barley
1/4 pound Chocolate Malt
1 pound Dark spraymalt (William's)
6 pounds Oatmeal Dark extract (William's)
1 cup Dark Brown Sugar
1 tsp Cyanne pepper
1/2 tsp Ground Ginger
1/2 tsp Corriander
2.5 oz Northern Brewer pellets 
No finishing hops
Ale yeast

I was going to add some blackstrap molassas, but I think the jar
of molassas I have has "gone off" so I did not add any.  I would 
like to use molassas to prime this (I will buy some new stuff) but
I do NOT know how much to use.

Anybody out there primed with molassas before?  How much did you use?
How was the carbonation level?  How long did bottle conditioning take?

One additional note:  After I had cooled the wort, I opened the 
kettle to put the wort in the fermenter.  Inside the kettle,
floating on top of the wort was....
              
                    ****A TUFT OF CAT HAIR****

So now it is a battle between yeast and cat hair bugs.  By this morning
the beer had gone out of lag and smells fine.  Of course I am NOT
worrying.  I only worry about important things, like what kind of
beer to have next!


Any comments appreciated.

 -toot

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Date: Fri, 14 May 1993 10:39:33
From: garetz at brahms.amd.com (Mark Garetz)
Subject: More Anchor


Jim Busch says he doesn't recall any open fermentation at Anchor.

All of the primary fermentation is done in open tanks.  The steam/porter
tanks are shallow (approx 2.5 ft deep) and maybe 8x20 feet (just an
estimate).  The ale tanks are square (about 12x12) and maybe 10-12 feet
deep.  The secondary fermentation and conditioning is done in closed
stainless tanks.  This may be what Jim remembers seeing.  I have pictures of
all three (and a shot of the copper mash tun and boiler in the morning light
hung on my office wall!).


Frank responds to my response:

>You are correct about what dial I was reading:  the one on the pipe where
the
>water and grain are mixed.  Is it therefore reasonable to assume that this
>puts a maximum on the actual rest temperature?

I don't know if it's reasonable to assume anything.  The tun is heated (by
steam I believe) and controlled by a programmable temperature controller in
the back room.  Don't forget that they do upward infusion mashes. I assume
that the reading on the dial would only be accurate if there was a
grain/water mixture flowing through it at the time the picture was taken
(odds are against it).

Mark Garetz
HopTech


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Date: Fri, 14 May 93 21:03:41 GMT
From: weissborn at dfwdsr.SINet.SLB.COM
Subject: 1st batch problem(?)


Tuesday evening I cooked up my first batch and am having a problem
that I hope someone can help with.

First, the recipe:

6lbs of light dry malt extract
1.5lbs of Wildflower honey
1oz Northern Brewer hops
4oz of fresh ginger
2.5 cups of 20l Crystal Malt

Method:
Boiled 2 gals of water.  Cooled and poured into 5gal carboy.

Put 3 gals of water into pot,  Added crystal malt and brought
to a boil.  Boiled for five minutes (as per the local brewstore
instructions) then strained out the crystal malt.

Brought the liquid to boil again, added the DME, stirring to
make sure it didn't stick, added the ginger and the hops.
Boiled for about 45minutes.  Cooled to about 90dg farenheit.

Poured this into the carboy via a funnel in order to add O2.

Added 1oz of EDME dry yeast.  Added a blow-off tube and placed
in bathroom('cause it is dark and cooler than anywhere in the
house).

Got some bubbling in about an hour and through out the night
but no real foaming or high activity as I have heard others get
using EDME.  By Wednesday, afternoon, no more bubbling.  Went
back to the brew store and they suggested that I re-pitch.  This
time I used Nottingham dry ale yeast.  Pitched this Thursday
afternoon but no noticeable activity by Friday Morning.

So, my question is: "What happened?" and can I salvage this first 
batch?


BTW, for what it's worth.  A Coleman campstove makes a pretty good
cooker.  I can bring 3 gals to a boil in about 20mins and if it
boils over, all I have to do is hose it down to clean it up.  My 
wife was glad I didn't use the stove in the house  8-)

Anyway, any help will be greatly appreciated.

Bill Weissborn



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Date: Fri, 14 May 1993 14:31:53 -0800 (PDT)
From: Peter Maxwell <peterm at aoraki.dtc.hp.com>
Subject: another question on sugars

In what I've seen so far there has been no mention made of Golden Syrup, a
type of sugar common in the UK, Australia and New Zealand.  Has anyone tried
this in brewing?

	Peter

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Date: Fri, 14 May 93 22:02:19 GMT
From: ccicpg!al!brian at uunet.UU.NET (Brian Davis)
Subject: Re: Belgian souvenirs

Mark asks:

     >1)  Whats the duty rate on alcohol over the duty-free limit (and for that 
     >    matter whats the duty free limit)?

I got a lot of different replies when I asked this question last year.
I brought back 12.5 liters of beer with no problems.

     >2)  Is it best just to pack the beer carefully and carry it on the plane 
     >    as extra luggage or to ship it?

I boxed the beer up with my dirty laundry as padding.  Most of the bottles
were wrapped in newspaper and then shoved into the legs of levis.  The box
went as checked luggage and arrived undamaged.  A friend of mine did have
some homebrew leak in his luggage once, so you may want to consider lining
the box with a plastic bag.

     >3)  Does anyone have any particular recomendations about Belgian beers not
     >    available here that she might easily find there?  She will be spending
     >    most of her time in Antwerp.
	
If someone offers her some Delerium Tremmens, have her buy the neat T-shirt
with the pink elephant logo, but skip the beer.

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Date: Fri, 14 May 93 15:04 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Re: Lallemand/Adding fruit

LYONS writes:
>In George Fix's HBD #1140 post he mentioned that the Whitbread yeast
>manufactored by Lallemand was "completely unacceptable" due to low
>viable cell count.  Since Lallemand also produces Nottingham and
>Windsor dry yeasts, is their any reason to expect that these yeasts
>are acceptable?  From my on experience, and also from comments of
>many others from this HBD, both Nottingham and Windsor have rather
>long lag times.  On my last batch with Nottingham I used to packages
>of yeast and the lag time was 48 hours.  Could this be due to a low
>percentage of viable yeast cells?

I've used these two yeasts on quite a few batches and have found that
rehydration at around 104-110F is very important to get a short lag
time.  Also, storage is a big factor in viability.  I store my dry
yeast in the fridge along with the liquid yeast.  Even if you store
your dry yeast in the fridge, does your retailer?  Do they have a
week's worth of yeast on the shelf with the rest in the fridge or do
they have a year's supply on the shelf?  Dried yeast is still alive
and has (I believe) about 8% moisture.  The Yeast Special Issue of
Zymurgy has an article that reports 10% viable dry yeast after 12 months
at 68F and 0% viable after 12 months at 100F.  Compare this to 80% viable
after 12 months at 38F.

Shane writes:
>  There has been some traffic regarding adding fruit to the
>secondary.  Aside from concerns over bacteria and wild yeasts,
>I would caution against adding anything acidic (like the
>citrous fruits), because it will kill your yeast and give you
>a flat brew.  In one of my earlier batches, I added a bit of
>orange peel to "liven up" the end product.  Complete failure...

I disagree.  I've not only made nearly 100 gallons of perfectly
carbonated fruit beers, but also a very sour pseudo-lambik which
was well carbonated.  No, something may indeed have killed your
yeast, but I doubt it was acidity.  Did you use campden tablets
to sanitize your fruit?  Did you let all the SO2 evaporate before
adding the fruit to the beer?  The SO2 released by the campden
tablets not only kills wild yeasts and bacteria, but can also
kill your cultured yeast.

Al.

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Date: 15 May 1993 12:40:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: WESTEMEIER at delphi.com
Subject: Cleveland competition mystery

The SNOBS Sampling, a sanctioned competition held at the Great Lakes
Brewing Co. in Cleveland back in February, was a lot of fun.
 
Unfortunately, things seem to have collapsed after the judging.  We have
a number of unhappy brewers in this area who have never received their
score sheets (I haven't found anyone who DID receive a score sheet).
 
Moreover, when I talked to the AHA yesterday, I found that they have
apparently never received an organizer's report, so those of us who
judged in this comp haven't received any credit for it.
 
I know that there is a lot of work involved, and I don't know the state
of volunteer help in Cleveland, but if anyone has any information as to
what happened, it would sure be appreciated.
 
Ed Westemeier  --  Cincinnati, Ohio  --  westemeier at delphi.com
 

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Date: Sat, 15 May 93 16:39:26 PDT
From: mdcsc!gdh at uunet.UU.NET (Garrett Hildebrand)
Subject: Draught packaging; hop growth

In HBD 1139, Jim Busch comments on the effect of the new draught
packaging on Guinness:

[stuff cut]

>I can attest to absolutely GREAT canned Guinness.

I can, too. I have had it in the bottle and the old can and thought it
was utter trash. When I finally got to taste it on tap, I really liked
it. I was very surprised when I tried the draught packaging to find
that the new canned version was about as good as on tap. I got my first
taste of this a couple of years ago when a friend brought some back
from the UK. It is just now showing up here in the USA. Of course, if
one does not like draft Guiness from the tap, then this can won't
change ones mind.

Recently, I got to try another brand packaged this same way.This new
batch is called Flowers Draught. It is one of the best UK ales I have
tried, including many available on tap. I doubt, though, that this
packaging would do anything for Bud.

It might, however, do a treat for Baderbrau, which is already great
from the bottle!


HOPS
For those people growing hops for the first time, here is another "hop
report:"

The hops are doing fine. Nugget is still the fastest of Willamette and
Cascade. The Cascade took a long while to get going, is slow-growing by
comparison and has a more delicate growth in general (smaller leaves).
No bug problems so far. I am fertilizing with general-purpose organic
fertilizer, and they seem to like it fine. My highest vine is about six
feet up the twine (this is the first year.)

By the way, the Cascade took a long while to come up out of the
ground.

gdh



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Date: Sun, 16 May 93 8:20:49 PDT
From: steve_kenshulo at csufresno.edu (Steve Kenshulo)
Subject: Hershey's chocolate syrup in beer

I have been thinks about dumping a can of Hershey's chocolate syrup
to my next batch of porter. Has anyone ever tried anything like this?
I am hopeing the chocolate will have enough unfermentables in it to
leave a _slight_ chocolate taste in the beer, without riseing the
alcohol content too high. I was thinking about adding a pint or so
in with the malt extract, then boiling the whole mess.

The only thing that I think might go wrong is the cocoa will be to
bitter after all the suger ferments out. Any ideas out there?

Steve Kenshalo
skenshul at mondrian.csufresno.edu

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1142, 05/17/93