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	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator

Contents:
  hop pellets and lauter tun/hop backs (Jeff Miller)
  erratum to Jim Conroy (BROWN)
  Re: liquid yeast (Pete Soper)
  Yeast Activation? (pbmoss!mal)
  Cleaning my kegging system (HELP)... ("Anthony M. Giannone")
  Responses (Oliver Grillmeyer)

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 89 8:03:18 CDT
From: Jeff Miller <jmiller at unix.eta.com>
Subject: hop pellets and lauter tun/hop backs

First off I liked Jim Conroy's response to Jackie Browns questions and
I also think that Jackie's brew will be fine.  If you don't trust it
I'll be glad to try it for you!

Now I would like to stir things up a bit.  I have used whole and pellet
hops before but never any of the liquid stuff.  My questions to the net
in general is what kind of success they are having with different types
of hop products.

I used to be a hop snob that would require the use of whole hops.  The
problems that I encountered with this attitude resulted in less choice,
more incidences of less then fresh hops, and a real pain in the neck in
getting the hops out.  I have used both hop bags as well as one disasterous
affair of using my Zapap lauter tun as a hop back with whole hops.  I
like the idea that filtering through a hop bed removes proteins that
could contribute to chill haze but I guess I haven't found the correct
hop back mechanism to justify the time I would put in trying to remove the
hops.

Of late I really have started to like using pellets.  My local brew shops
offer better selections in pellets and I haven't had as many problems with
stale hops.  The hop bags I used for leaf hops work GREAT for pellet hops.
The hop bag (6"x8" with a drawstring) gets keeps most of the hops in the
bag so filtering isn't needed.  The bag also cleans out nice because once
you remove the wort from the bag the hops cling together and come out nicely.
When doing this with whole hops its a real mess.

Now for lauter tun/hop back systems.  I like my zapap lauter tun but I think
if I had to do it again I would look at some of the other things that are
showing up in my brew supply stores.  Namely there is a great spargeing bag
available that fits nicely into one of those food grade buckets, has very fine
mesh on the side and a little coarser weave on the bottom.  For the few bucks it
sure would be nicer then drilling wholes and it would probably clean up a
whole lot easier.  If anyone has one of these things maybe they would like
to comment so those interrested in getting a lauter tun/hop back could get
a better idea of their options.

I have also used different bagging techniques during the cooking.  I really
like hop bags but the small size I have makes leaf hops harder to handle.
I also like to have at least two around so that I can add extra hops easier
then pulling the hot thing out of the wort just to burn my hands opening it.
I have tried other home made bags that required tying (works ok but the
karma just isn't right) to having my wife buy me some special brew nylons.
I only tried the nylons for grain and it worked fine for small amounts.
I think I'll have to try them with hops to see how they work.  If you use
nylons get BIG ones.  You may even want to try and strech them before using
them.

Sparging through a huge funnel has always been my least favorite method.
I have a nylon bag that fits in the funnel and I can poor through it right
into the fermenter.  It is a hassle because sometimes the hot wort going in
gets thown back out.  This can be remedied by expecting it to happen at first
and then once the flow gets going the poor goes much easier.  Of course
when the filter gets plugged up its a real hassle and you also have to hold
the hot wort during the poor for a much longer time then just pooring into
a bucket.

Just my two cents....

Jeff Miller (jmiller at eta.com)

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Date:     Thu, 30 Mar 89 11:10 EST
From: <BROWN%MSUKBS.BITNET at CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU>
Subject:  erratum to Jim Conroy

> "I took a step up to using dried extract, crystal malt and hop
> "pellets.
> "I then boiled for 45 min
> "added 1oz Bullion hop pellets for 10 min
> "added 1oz Fuggles for 3-5 min.

> I may be wrong, but it's my impression that dried extracts are usually
> unhopped.  If the one you'r using is unhopped, the 10 min. boil for Bullion
> hops is not going to give you adequate bitterness.  You need to boil hops for
> bittering (such as Bullions) for 45-60 mins, and save your flavor and aroma
> hops (such as Fuggles) for the 10 min and 3-5 min boils.

Yup, I was wrong.  After checking my catalog collection, I found that Munton
and Fison sells hopped dry extract.  If you used a hopped extract, my point
is moot.  We all make mistakes.

Jackie Brown (via bitnet:  Brown at msukbs)

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 89 12:29:04 est
From: Pete Soper <soper at maxzilla.encore.com>
Subject: Re: liquid yeast

  I've added a Wyeast packet to a 5 gallon batch directly three
times. Once there was a 24 hour delay until the top of the wort
had at least a thin layer of foam on it. The other two times the
delay was about 36 hours. I find this much delay intolerable,
  The cost is also intolerable. When I make a batch of beer with
$5 of grain and $1.50 of hops, why should I spend $4.25 for 
yeast? For the past few months I've split Wyeast packets
between a starter and 2-3 sterilized culture tubes and then used
the tubes with starters for later batches. I've had no problems
with culturing yeast from tubes that have been in my fridge for
up to 8 weeks.
  The one variable that nags me is the amount of nutrient
still in the broth at the point I put the tubes in the fridge.
I wonder if something bad would happen to the saved portions of yeast
if I fermented the Wyeast packet completely out before using it? In
other words, would the self-consumption (spelled something like
autolysis) problems that I've read about come into effect in this
case?
  I read Leistad's book too. I've had a bag of agar for months
to make slants but haven't tried this yet.
  But for several months I've used a canner to make up batches of sterile
wort in pint and quart jars.  I use this same scheme for making jars of
sterile priming sugar solutions, complete with graduations on the side
(with a grease pencil). Finally, I've found that sterilized jars made
with the same scheme sometimes come in handy for topping up fermenters.
  A conflict with starters that I've run into is this: If I pitch
the starter while it is active, the yeast is suspended and I've got to
include the liquid to get all the yeast, thus adding a large volume
of dark, very low gravity wort to my batch. The canning 
severely darkens the starter wort. If I avoid this by fully
fermenting the starter before pitching, I can pour off most of the
liquid, then swirl it up and pitch the yeast from the bottom. But then 
I'm pitching sleeping yeast. I can't decide which way is best but
for the moment I'm fully fermenting my (final) starters, since there seems
to be as much color in a quart of this as in all the rest of the
"Steam Pilsner" I'm making these days.
  I just got a deja vu, so if I've written about canning already,
sorry. I think this is another case of something I started to send
to the digest but didn't.
  As for the kinds of yeasts and their characteristics, here are
some quick notes based on my experience.
  I first used strain #2035 to make steam beers. I'm pretty sure
Wyeast has discontinued this so there may not be much point in
discussing it except to say that it worked well for me. Fermentations
were at 65-68 degrees. Yes, this was too darn warm but it was all
I could manage. 
  Number 2042 ("Danish Later Yeast") for some reason gave me a
ridiculously under-attenuated batch of beer. This was with the same
extract steam beer recipe I'd made a few times before (with 2035),
so I had very definite expectations of how it was to turn out.
It didn't meet those expectations. However, you can't plot with one
data point, can you, so take this with a lump of rock salt. Since
other folks have described use of 2042 with no problems I'm thinking
of trying this yeast again. I thought I had some data from my
supply shop indicating this yeast was non-attenuative, but that was
rubbish.
  Number #2007 ("St. Louis Lager") has been very reliable for me. I've
used it around 6 times and the fermentation has always proceeded at
a very even pace with primary finishing in about 72 hours. This has been
at 55-60 degrees. Like many of you I don't have a fridge and so have
never made a true lager. Also, with 2007 when I'm done my fermenter
smells like a big batch of rising bread dough. That's the kind of
sign that helps me relax.
  Number #1028 ("British Ale"?) has also been pulled by Wyeast. My one
experience with it was horrible since it failed to flocculate properly
and was still somewhat suspended 8 weeks after bottling. Again, this
was one experience. Fermentation was at 61-63 degrees.
  I've used number #1098 ("Whitbread Ale") twice. I reported the first
results a few weeks ago. I recently bottled another recipe made with this
that was fermented at 70 degrees instead of the 60 I'd used for the
first. The esters were not nearly as pronounced at bottling time, but
were still much more pronounced than I'd ever gotten with other yeast.
This batch has some roast barley in it and the roast barley
aroma coupled with the ester's aroma of apples results in a unique
character, to say the least. It's the aroma I would expect of a beer
served to me at the bar in "Star Wars" :^)
  So I'm sticking with #2007, leaning toward trying #2042 again
and am still looking for a well mannered ale yeast.
  Can anybody comment on strain #1084 ("Irish Ale")?
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Pete Soper, Encore Computer Corp, 901 Kildaire Farm Rd., bldg D
Cary, North Carolina  27511     USA      phone   1 919 481 3730
arpa: soper at encore.com (129.91.1.14)
uucp: {talcott,linus,bu-cs,bellcore,decvax,necntc}!encore!soper

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 89 11:01:36 -0800
From: pacbell!pbmoss!mal at hplabs.HP.COM
Subject: Yeast Activation?

Well, I went & gone & done it:  I started my first batch of
Homebrew.  In a compromise between my novice status and my tastes, I
started with a kit, an English-style brown ale using a combination
of extract & grains, put together by my closest supplier (R & R Home
Fermentation Supply of Sacramento).

The boil went well enough, despite the fact that I'd broken a toe
the day before, and despite crisis calls from Work.  These
distractions probably saved me from getting too worried about the
beer.  I was worried about the effect of pouring hot wort into a
glass carboy that was old when I got it 10 years ago, so I ladled the
two gallons I'd boiled s-l-o-w-l-y through the straining cloth into
another two gallons of cold water, which seemed to work just fine. 

Then I hit a (minor) snag:  the directions on the (Emde Ale) yeast
package said to sprinkle the little pellets on the top of the
(cooled) wort, but the kit directions said to mix with a couple
tablespoons of tepid water.  I tried the latter, which instantly
produced a glob of incredibly sticky beige goop!  Adding slightly
more water didn't seem to help, so I just scraped it into the wort
as best I could, and stirred, which didn't break it up at all.  I
checked it 90 minutes later before going to bed, and to my
astonishment, the glob had spread over several inches of the
surface, and a bubble appeared in my blowoff pail!  When I left for
work this morning it was bubbling merrily away.  But: what should I
do in my next batch?  Just pour the stuff in, as it says on the
package?  Youth (hah!) Wants to Know!

= Martin A. Lodahl    Pac*Bell Minicomputer Operations Support Staff =
= {att,bellcore,sun,ames}!pacbell!pbmoss!mal            916/972-4821 =
= If it's good for ancient Druids, runnin' nekkid through the wuids, =
= Drinkin' strange fermented fluids, it's good enough for me!  8-)   =

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 89 15:15:46 EST
From: "Anthony M. Giannone" <giannone at ccm.bbn.com>
Subject: Cleaning my kegging system (HELP)...

	posted for a friend...

	I have a Cornelius (sp?) type kegging system that was given to me.
	It was previously used for soda. My problem is that I can't figure
	out how to open it so I can clean it. If anyone is familiar with
	this container (and how to open it) I would appreciate hearing from
	you. You can call me (Carl Devincentis) at (617) 873-4799 (9-5 days
	east coast time) or send email to Tony Giannone (giannone at bbn.com).

	thanks in advance,
	Carl D.

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Date: Thu, 30 Mar 89 18:35:11 -0800
From: topramen at ernie.Berkeley.EDU (Oliver Grillmeyer)
Subject: Responses

>> From: Jim Conroy <AS2JXC%BINGVMA.BITNET at CORNELLC.ccs.cornell.edu>
>>    I heated 1# crystal malt in 3 gals water till boiling removed all
>> malt by straining and added 6# dried amber extract.
>>    I then boiled for 45 min
>>    added 1oz Bullion hop pellets for 10 min
>>    added 1oz Fuggles for 3-5 min.

   If you put your grains in a nylon straining bag, there's no straining
to worry about.  I also remove the grains before the boil, so the nasty
flavored tanins don't get extracted.  I remove the grains at about 170
degrees F.  Then I add malt extract, take that to a boil and then add hops.

   There are benefits to boiling the wort with the hops.  I'm not an expert
on this but it has to do with getting the alpha and beta acids from the hops
to do their thing with the malt.  Hops help produce a clearer beer.  They grab
the large proteins from the malt thus giving a better cold break.  The cold
break occurs as the wort cools down and the proteins and perhaps some other
large molecules (??) clump together in visible clusters.  Then if you give
your beer a good stir, these particles form a nice conical pile in the
bottom of your cooling container.  I then pour this wort, with hop leaves
and all into a large food grade sterile bucket with the nylon straining
bag over the bucket, so I catch all the hops.  Also I don't pour in the last bit
of wort which has all those big particles from the cold break.  Then I add
my yeast, stir it well, and siphon into the carboy.  I've heard that
Sierra Nevada filters their beer through hops.  Sounds like a great idea,
but rather expensive for us little guys.

   I used to worry about splashing but now I don't.  It's apparently good
to oxygenate your wort because the lag time of the yeast when they multiply
is aerobic.  Oxygenating the wort helps the yeast during this lag time.  The
fermentation phase however is anerobic.

   The alpha acids and beta acids produce the bitterness
that you taste in the beer.  It takes different amounts of time to get a good
extraction of these acids.  I am not positive on these times.  Also there
are different properties of the alphas and betas but again I don't remember
what they are.  Perhaps someone out there can fill in these blanks.
I use two additions of bittering hops to get different effects.  One
addition gets an hour and fifteen minutes of boil, and the second half an hour.

   The aromatic oils give the wonderful hop aroma to the beer.  Boiling hops
destroys these oils, so aromatic hops should be added at the very end
of brewing, and not boiled.  Also try to boil as much water as possible when
brewing.  The alpha and beta acid extraction decreases as the
density of the wort increases.  I try to start with 6-7 gallons
in two brew kettles.  This allows for evaporation.

>> At this point with no real way to strain I tried to transfer HOT
>> wort to the carboy using a strainer (mess 2).  The HOT wort glubbed out of
>> the CARBOY and funnel so very tired I transferd slowly with out straining
>> until I got to the bottom, which I strained with a kitchen strainer.

Be sure to cool your wort before adding it to your carboy to avoid cracking
your carboy.  Carboys are more delicate than they look.  Once while carrying
two carboys, I accidently bumped the two together.  It was not a strong impact
but it cracked one of the carboys.  That was one of my sadder beer experiences,
of course when I had a full batch blow and ooze down the walls through the floor
to the downstairs neighbor's flat, that was probably worse.  (It was a dark
beer too)  :-)

Oliver
topramen at ernie.berkeley.edu

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