FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  RIP OFF (SMUCKER)
  Zymurgy Hate Mail (SMUCKER)
  Beer? Just push a button... (Wayde Nie)
  Beer? Just push a button... (Wayde Nie)
  Zima Clear Malt Liquor (Karl F. Bloss)
  Re: Sterilizing bottles (tmr)
  Filling CO2 Tanks (gorman)
  co2 gas vs. liquid (jeff kulick)
  RE: Zima (David Holsclaw)
  CO2 filling,  big stainless (David Hinz)
  in defense of sugar & iodophor (Jim Busch)
  RE: Priming, sugar vs. malt extract vs. gyle (John Mare)
  CO2, Old book, Portland (Mark Garetz)
  Blowoff, Iodophor, Sterilizing bottles (Bill Vaughan)
  OOPS! (Larry D. Pyeatt)
  Briess, Northwestern ("Anthony Johnston")
  Aging "bad batches" (F. G. Patterson Jr.)
  calculating ppms (Human Genome Center, LBL) <stevko at genome.lbl.gov>
  Various questions (Robert Pulliam)
  Geary's Pale Ale (lyons)
  Re: Mark Garetz query about old book, HBD1189 (LeRoy S. Strohl)
  cancel subscription (VLACICH_)
  Digital vs. lexical yeast (Derrick Pohl)
  Crushoff in Portland (Jack Schmidling)
  Intro & a question (Jonathan Gibbens)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 16:27:47 -0400 (EDT)
From: SMUCKER at UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU
Subject: RIP OFF

Hyrum Laney
>Questions:  What is the proper way to fill a CO2 tank?  Did the 
>bar's method>work?  Is the gas from a fire company safe to 
>consume?

Well it sure sounds to be like you got ripped off!  What you most 
likely got was your tank filled with 800 psi CO2.  There are two 
types of large tanks (50 pound tanks typical)  those which bars 
and welders would normally use where they want gas and those 
with a liquid tube than runs to the bottom like our kegs so that 
liquid is forced out.  The latter type is used mostly for high 
pressure fire protection systems.  In industry these are often 
called high pressure CARDOX tanks.  You could easily fill a 
smaller cylinder from these liquid tube type cylinders.  It is 
possible to fill small cylinders from a normal gas type cylinder 
but you have to turn them up side down.  Not an easy thing to 
dosafely with a cylinder that weights in at about 160 pounds.

There is another type of CO2 storage tank and that is the low 
pressure CARDOX tank.  These very large systems use a insulated 
tank with a refrigeration system which allows the CO2 to be 
stored as a liquid under lower pressure.  These tanks typical run 
between 10,000 and 30,000 pounds of storage. (That would handle 
a lot of homebrew.)  These large systems are used for major fire 
control systems on things like rolling mills used to roll all of the 
aluminum for beer cans.  Also tank trucks whichtransport large 
amounts of CO2 use this low pressure refrigeration systems.  

Back to Hyrum Laney questions the fill you got from the Fire 
company may very well have come from on of these low pressure, 
refrigerated storage systems.  This would required a pump to 
fillyour tank, or to fill fire extingures.

Safety of the gas?  Well, within reason I consider industrial CO2 
gas from a welding supply company or the Fire company safe.  
(The fire company most likely got their supply from one of the 
large industrial gas supply companies.)  Purity levels of 
industrial gases are very high and I have only had a problem once 
and that was argon which had some cotamination of H2O (water), 
that came from the cylinder, remaining from a hydrostatic test.  
Screw up the TIG welding very badly, doesn't take much H2O to do 
that.  Bottom line of all this I have my 50 pound cylinder filled at 
my welding gas supplier--- 50 pounds lasts more that a year, 
costs $ 19.00 to fill,  but the 160 pounds filled cylinder 
will not fit in the refrigerator.

Dave Smucker,   Brewing beer --- not making jelly!

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 18:27:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: SMUCKER at UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU
Subject: Zymurgy Hate Mail

Kieran O'Connor" is worried about getting hate mail because he 
is critical of Zymurgy.  Hate Mail" ? well I guess I hate Zymurgy 
too.  Zymurgy could be so much more that it is.  I think the real 
question is that as homebrewing has been growing up into a 
wider appeal hobby,  "has Zymurgy been growing up too?"  I don't 
think so and that why this forum and new magazines like 
Brewing Tech. have so much appeal.  

It is time for the staff of Zymurgy to listen to some 
constructive criticizing and to start making some 
improvements.  After all for many in this forum who are 
members of AHA, Zymurgy as the publication of a non profit 
organization is our magazine.  

Homebrewing has become, some will say always was, a serious 
hobby.  While I enjoy jokes about the hobby and brewing in 
general the Zymurgy "Don't worry" kick gets real old, real fast.  
Most of us want good beer and we do care about what we invest 
a lot of time and spend hard earned cash on.  The "don't worry" it 
may not taste like what you want but it will be drinkable just 
doesn't match up with the serious brewer today.  My 
recommendation --- drop it.

I think the ads are useful but once a year would be enough for all 
of the AHA ad pages.  Same goes for the filler page listings.  Not 
ever club, ever donor needs to be listed each issue.  Put those 
pages in articles about brewing.  While on the subject of 
articles, include more information and more data, and above all 
tell readers where one can get follow up information.  A full 
page wasted on someone falling into a pile of hops rather that 
more information on dry hopping is just that, a wasted page.

And last, but not least, the Zymurgy staff should, if they haven't 
all ready done so, go out at look at the magazines of some other 
hobbies.  They will find that the publications try to include has 
much information and help as possible in the pages they print, 
not just print the same filler again issue after issue.  By the 
way, why isn't Zymurgy a monthly magazine?  From the amount 
being published in this forum it would not seem that it is a lack 
of authors or information. Is the Zymurgy staff too busy living 
off a non profit organization?

By the way if you disagree send the hate mail to Kieran 
O'Connor.  I intend to stay a member of AHA but would like to 
see Zymurgy improve in the '90ies.

Dave Smucker,    Brewing beer,-- not making jelly!

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 23:11:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wayde Nie <u9106857 at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Beer? Just push a button...

	I came across this article while collecting the old newspapers
from around the house for recycling.  I thought you all might be interested.

*****************

Reprinted without permission (Sorry :-) from The Toronto Star, Monday,
July 12, 1993. Page C1 (Business Today)

Beer? Just push a button

By Greg Joyce
THE CANADIAN PRESS

     VANCOUVER - It's a drinker's dream - a machine that
turns water into beer at the push of a button.
     Canadians will soon be able to have beer on tap at
home, thanks to the FH2000 Beer Machine - a device about
the size of a coffee maker, says Tim Crosby, president of
Vancouver-based marketing company Fountain House Holdings
Corp.
     Crosby says the cost of a pint from the machine will
be about $1.50.
     The Beer Machine was introduced last month at a news
conference in England, drawing rave reviews in several
British newspapers.
     Operating instructions are simple, Crosby said
Friday.
     Perhaps too simple for the ale aficionado.
     The machine is attached to the home's water supply -
 most likely near the kitchen sink or wet bar.
     On one side of the machine is attached the beer
syrup. On the other side is a refillable carbon dioxide
cylinder.
     The lager lover simply pushes a button and waits a
few seconds. The carbonated water fills a mixing chamber
at the top of the machine along with a shot of syrup.
     The mixing process takes about 10 seconds and the
golden nectar flows into the waiting glass.
     The alcohol content is now 3.5 per cent but Crosby
said that could be increased later to the more standard
5 per cent.
     After the machine's debut in England, the London-
based Star newspaper headlined the story "Tip-Tap Tipple"
and quoted citizens as approving of the beer's taste.
     Another newspaper quoted British trade leaders as
saying the machine posed a threat to an already
struggling pub industry.
     Crosby said his company planned to try to make the
machine available to Canadian consumers by January. It
was demonstrated for a reporter at the company's downtown
office on Friday.
     "The cost in Canada (for the machine) will be
between $150 to $175 (plus taxes)," said Crosby. He said
the Beer Machine retails for about $200 in Britain.
     Consumers must also buy the carbon dioxide cylinder
and the syrup, which is currently made at a brewery in
Britain and sells there for about $12 a can, said Crosby.
     In Canada, the syrup will be subject to liquor
taxes.
     Fountain House is listed on the Vancouver Stock Exchange.

******************

	I don't think that I'll be givin' up my homebrew for it... (Neat
idea though :-)
	Draw your own conclusions... Standard Disclaimers apply... etc...
                                      \\\  
                                     (o o)
- ---------------------------------ooO--(*)--Ooo--------------------------------
                  Wayde Nie, u9106857 at McMail.CIS.McMaster.CA
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 25 Jul 1993 23:11:59 -0400 (EDT)
From: Wayde Nie <u9106857 at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Beer? Just push a button...

	I came across this article while collecting the old newspapers
from around the house for recycling.  I thought you all might be interested.

*****************

Reprinted without permission (Sorry :-) from The Toronto Star, Monday,
July 12, 1993. Page C1 (Business Today)

Beer? Just push a button

By Greg Joyce
THE CANADIAN PRESS

     VANCOUVER - It's a drinker's dream - a machine that
turns water into beer at the push of a button.
     Canadians will soon be able to have beer on tap at
home, thanks to the FH2000 Beer Machine - a device about
the size of a coffee maker, says Tim Crosby, president of
Vancouver-based marketing company Fountain House Holdings
Corp.
     Crosby says the cost of a pint from the machine will
be about $1.50.
     The Beer Machine was introduced last month at a news
conference in England, drawing rave reviews in several
British newspapers.
     Operating instructions are simple, Crosby said
Friday.
     Perhaps too simple for the ale aficionado.
     The machine is attached to the home's water supply -
 most likely near the kitchen sink or wet bar.
     On one side of the machine is attached the beer
syrup. On the other side is a refillable carbon dioxide
cylinder.
     The lager lover simply pushes a button and waits a
few seconds. The carbonated water fills a mixing chamber
at the top of the machine along with a shot of syrup.
     The mixing process takes about 10 seconds and the
golden nectar flows into the waiting glass.
     The alcohol content is now 3.5 per cent but Crosby
said that could be increased later to the more standard
5 per cent.
     After the machine's debut in England, the London-
based Star newspaper headlined the story "Tip-Tap Tipple"
and quoted citizens as approving of the beer's taste.
     Another newspaper quoted British trade leaders as
saying the machine posed a threat to an already
struggling pub industry.
     Crosby said his company planned to try to make the
machine available to Canadian consumers by January. It
was demonstrated for a reporter at the company's downtown
office on Friday.
     "The cost in Canada (for the machine) will be
between $150 to $175 (plus taxes)," said Crosby. He said
the Beer Machine retails for about $200 in Britain.
     Consumers must also buy the carbon dioxide cylinder
and the syrup, which is currently made at a brewery in
Britain and sells there for about $12 a can, said Crosby.
     In Canada, the syrup will be subject to liquor
taxes.
     Fountain House is listed on the Vancouver Stock Exchange.

******************

	I don't think that I'll be givin' up my homebrew for it... (Neat
idea though :-)
	Draw your own conclusions... Standard Disclaimers apply... etc...
                                      \\\  
                                     (o o)
- ---------------------------------ooO--(*)--Ooo--------------------------------
                  Wayde Nie, u9106857 at McMail.CIS.McMaster.CA
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 09:17:46 -0400
From: blosskf at ttown.apci.com (Karl F. Bloss)
Subject: Zima Clear Malt Liquor

Stephen Brent Peters <sp2q+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
writes:
[...]
I hear it tastes like Fresca, and it really is H2O clear.  Has anyone
else seen this, or is it just being dumped in the pittsburgh area?
[...]
It's out here in eastern PA also; I suspect much of the East Coast has
seen it.  Fresca?  Hmm, I thought it was more like spiked flat Crystal
Pepsi.  Yech!  Hey, maybe that's the recipe! ;-)

 -Karl
(blosskf at ttown.apci.com)

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 09:21:48 EDT
From: tmr at fjtld.att.com
Subject: Re: Sterilizing bottles

In the HOMEBREW Digest #1189 of 7/26/93, Bill Vaughan tells us how he
sterilizes his bottles in a dishwasher.  It sounds like a good method,
but he is only sanitizing them, not sterilizing them.  I use the
dishwasher myself to clean empty bottles of homebrew.  When they drip
dry, I store them away.  Before I bottle though, I soak them in a bleach
solution, rinse them and let them drain.  This, I believe, will kill all
the bugs rather than a good washing will.

					Tom Romalewski

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 09:40:16 EDT
From: gorman at aol.com
Subject: Filling CO2 Tanks

Probably the most convenient places to get CO2 tanks filled are fire
extinguisher sales/service companies. They're all over the place, look in the
yellow pages.

Bill Gorman

Return to table of contents


Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 20:05:27 CDT
From: kulick at ebs330.eb.uah.edu (jeff kulick)
Subject: co2 gas vs. liquid

CO2 at room temperature vaporizes at about 45 atmospheres, or about
800 psi.  So, a 20 lb tank of co2 gas (which i guess is about
1 cu ft.) has about 45 cu ft of gas.   However, it is rated at about
800 cu ft. capacity, so the liquid form is much denser.

If you pump just a little co2 liquid into the tank, it vaporizes, and 
may get 46 or 47 cu ft. You must pump the liquid into the tank, which you
can't do from another co2 tank at room temperature.  

So, if you filled it at bar, you didn't get very much.

I've been getting co2 at a welding supply, and they say they
supply the pop companies so I guess their co2 is ok.

, 

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 09:04:43 +22306512 (CDT)
From: dhholscl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu (David Holsclaw)
Subject: RE: Zima

Group,

    Don't go out of your way to try the Zima!!

    A friend of mine was given a can of this stuff, so we decided to be open
minded and give it a try. BIG MISTAKE! It was like drinking unflavored
gelatine. My wife, of course, thought it was great. :(  Do you think that is
grounds for divorce? :)

    Even if it is free, it is not worth the time and effort to try this cr*p.
One other thing, I thought this was a Coors product? The can said Zima Brewing
Company? Is this a Coors subsidiary or am I just confused (not unusual).

    Cheers to everyone else NOT in Portland. :)

****************************************************************************
David H. Holsclaw                  Just Say No...
dhholscl at rs6000.cmp.ilstu.edu          to Sam Adams Beer!
****************************************************************************



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 10:09:28 CDT
From: hinz at memphis.med.ge.com (David Hinz)
Subject: CO2 filling,  big stainless


Mark at Hoptech<tm> wrote:

- ----

When I bought my second CO2 tank, I asked if it was possible to 
fill an empty tank from a full one.  Technically, it will work,
but it was explained to me as being very dangerous!  This was
because the tank being filled will heat up and explode if it
is done too fast and without the proper equipment.  In fact,
most of the welding gas suppliers in my area don't actually fill
tanks anymore, but exchange them.  The filling is done in a central
facility.  Bottom line:  Don't mess with it.  It can be fatal to 
you and your neighbors!

- ----

I'd like to add an emphatic second to that.  I've done quite a bit
of high-pressure work, and I've seen some pretty impressive failures
(shown as visual aids on "why you shouldn't do it this way").

When we fill air tanks for our fire department (to about 3000 PSI), we use
what's called a "cascade" system - we have four large tanks, at about
750psi, 1500psi, 2250psi, and 3000psi.  We slowly open the first valve, bring
the tank to 750, close the first valve.  Open the second slowly, etc. etc. 
etc.  Once the top one gets down to about 2300, we rotate the tanks, and get
the lowest one filled up to 3000.  Do not try this at home - this is pretty
expensive equipment, and we had a professional (certified) fitter do all of
the plumbing for it.  Only about 3 of us on the department are trained to use
the cascade system.

- -----------

I wrote a few days back about my 200 gallon milk chiller - I'm still looking
for good ideas of what to do with the silly thing.  What do y'all think about
using it as a big lagering vessel?

Silly idea time here (best way to get lots of responses, like the paper-
shredder grain mill), 

CAN I FILL IT WITH WATER AND LAGER MY BOTTLES (of beer) UNDER WATER?

The reason I ask this is like this:  At night & on weekends, my electricity
costs 1/6th of the daytime rate.  If I had this thing full of 200 gallons of
water (minus the volume of beer), it would have lots and lots of thermal mass,
and I could probably get by with not running the compressor when power is
expensive.  The tank can chill 200 gallons of milk from cow temperature
(presumably around 37C, 98.6F) to 35F degrees (nice temp, eh?) in less than
an HOUR, so obviously this is a powerful chiller, and will suck lots of
current when running.


Tanks,
Dave Hinz

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 11:18:01 EDT
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: in defense of sugar & iodophor

In the last digest:

From: John Mare <cjohnm at ccit.arizona.edu>
Subject: RE: Priming, sugar vs. malt extract vs. gyle

<snip
<No more gushers as I had with corn sugar.

I wont argue the issue of sugar vs wort vs krausen vs DME other to say
dont blame the sugar on your gushers.  Proper carbonation is obtainable
using any of the listed alternatives.  Pick what suits your environment and
ease of use.  When I am brewing tons of beer and have krausen available, 
it is great to use.  Usually, 1/2 of each batch I make is primed with 
corn sugar due to ease of use. It works fine.

From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: CO2, Old book, Portland

<When I bought my second CO2 tank, I asked if it was possible to 
<fill an empty tank from a full one.  Technically, it will work,
<but it was explained to me as being very dangerous!

Hummm, this is news to me.  I had my local CO2 shop put together a F-F CO2
coupling and hose for $15.  I hook one end to a 20Lb tank, the other to 
a small 2-5 Lb and fill it up.  I guess I dont open the valve all the way
at once, but I have found a freezing/chilling effect as opposed to a heat 
build up.  It only will fill 1/4 or so depending on how full the 20Lb is,
but It doesnt seem that dangerous.  The whole process takes about 20 seconds
to "fill".

From: bill at oilsystems.com (Bill Vaughan)
Subject: Blowoff, Iodophor, Sterilizing bottles

<Blowoff -- fortuitously, my last batch of "plain jane" got split into its
carboys unevenly.

The real test between this constant blowoff no blowoff debate is what is the
change if you skim the trub/yeast from the top of the nonblowoff fermenter??
This is how we traditional top fermenting ale brewers do it and it works
great. The point is removal of the trub/hop/yeast junk prior to falling back
in.

<The only problem is that I just bought 2 more acid carboys and I can't
 ever fill them enough to get a blowoff.

 Pitch more healthy cultured yeast and they will blow.  

<Iodophor ...So far I have ALWAYS smelled iodine.  I am not about to buy
another bottle of iodophor.

Fine, dont use it for dumb reasons.  My experience over the last year of only
using Iodophor (Diversy)_ at 12.5 ppm (1 0z into 10 gal) is it is the best,
easiest to use non corrosive cleaner on the market.  Fill the keg, add 1/2 oz
let stand 15 minutes, empty and lately I rinse once.  Sometimes hot water, 
sometimes cold.  Like Al noted, my water is clean enough for rinsing kegs
without infection.  Using this method, I have dispensed over 15 batches 
without any iodine troubles.  I think you may be getting overworked on the
smell thing, or are using too strong a solution.

<If I get pinholes in
the s/s after, say, 5 years, the keg has cost me maybe 5 bucks a year

It will be interesting to see just how much a keg costs in 5 years.

<From: ab126 at freenet.carleton.ca (Jay Cadieux)
Subject: Calories and beer


<Does anyone know a formula to calculate the amount of calories in beer,
<based on original gravity, terminal gravity, etc.?

Check the archives, George Fix posted this about a year ago, excellent stuff,
but I dont want to feel guilty by actually calculating that my beer is 
400 calories a pint.....it is interesting to see the difference between the
amount of calories from alcohol vs from sugars/dextrins.

Portland....been there, done that,  whats next?? Waaaaaaaaaa,
I miss Bridgeport Blue Heron Cask Ale......One of the top 5 cask ales in the 
US.

Good brewing,
Jim Busch

DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!






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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 10:45:24 CDT
From: pyeatt at Texaco.COM (Larry D. Pyeatt)
Subject: OOPS!


I Wrote:
> Date: Wed, 21 Jul 93 08:21:49 CDT
> From: pyeatt at Texaco.COM (Larry D. Pyeatt)
>
> Subject: Degrees of Extract
> Don Doyle writes:
>> As a real example, I brewed 11gals with 26.5 lbs of grains and got
>> a 1.065. What extraction am I getting and is it good?
 
> Well, plugging the numbers into the equation,
> DE = 1.065 * 11 / 26.5 = .44
> or 44 degrees of extract.  From this, I would guess that you
> added some malt syrup or adjunct.

This is wrong.  It should have been:
DE = 65 * 11 /26.5 = 26.98
or 27 degrees.  Not bad, but you could probably get a little better.
most people I talk to are happy to get around 25 degrees. 

I use a Recirculating Infusion Mash system, which helps boost my
extraction.  Also, the way the grains are crushed can make a big
difference.

Larry D. Pyeatt                    This article does not reflect the views
( pronounced "Johnson" )           of my employer or of myself.  Any simi-
Internet : pyeatt at texaco.com       larity to the views of anyone, real or
Voice    : (713) 975-4056          fictional, is purely coincidental.
                                   



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 12:02:29 CDT
From: "Anthony Johnston" <anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu>
Subject: Briess, Northwestern

Thanks to all of those individuals who let me know that kBriess and
Norhtwestern malt extracts are one and the same, the only difference
being the packaging.  Now I have a real problem on my hands, namely
figuring out what the Hell is going on with my brew!!!

A few questions to those who know (or think they do):
1) Can malt extract go bad upon prolonged storage?  How can you tell if
it is bad?  Will molds, or other beasties grow in undiluted malt
extract, or will the osmotic pressure prevent this, much like with
honey?
2)  If malt extract is able to support unwanted life, will any
byproducts of these vermin survive a 60-90 min boil or will they be
evaporated away?
3)  If Briess and Northwestern are one and the same, how is it that both
my brewmate and I have both noticed significant differences in brews
which used equal amounts of either, when all else has been held
constant?


An unrelated question:
I am hoping to receive my M.S. in organic chemistry later this year and
would like to pursue a career in brewing.  Of what value to me would it
be to pursue another degree in fermentation science?  What is the best
way to get a job at a "small" brewery? (Not necessarily micro, but not a
at AB/Coors/Miller?)  I've tried the classifieds, but rarely see
anything listed under BREWING, BEER, or FERMENTATIONS.  Anyone in the
business who could offer advice (or a job), private e-mail would be very
appreciated.


Sincerely,
Anthony Johnston
anthony at chemsun.chem.umn.edu



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 13:21:17 -0400
From: patterso at mason1.gmu.edu (F. G. Patterson Jr.)
Subject: Aging "bad batches"


> From: jim at n5ial.mythical.com (Jim Graham)
> 
> .... As for the bad batches, I'm basically taking the advice someone
> here gave me---keep 'em around until I need the bottles.  Every so
> often, I put one in the 'fridge and see if it tastes ok.  I've yet to
> find one that did ....

My experience is just the opposite.  Every time I've put a batch aside
to give it a chance to age, the problems have disappeared.  I have had
bad initial experiences with using whole grains.  The results were just
awful for months.  But somewhere in the time frame of 6 to 9 months
later, the beer improved and is now VERY good.



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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 10:26:18 PDT
From: Victor Stevko (Human Genome Center, LBL) <stevko at genome.lbl.gov>
Subject: calculating ppms

PPM stands for parts per million, figured (usually) by weights.  It has
nothing to do with molecular weights at all.  So, one PPM of sodium atoms
indicates one gram of sodium atoms per megagram, or 1000kg, of water.  
	Where chemistry enters is that these salts are ionic solids - they
dissociate into component ions when dissolved in water.  So, salt (NaCl)
becomes Na+ and Cl- ions.  You should get the PPM of the components by
figuring the percentage weight of each component, and multiplying by the
appropriate factor.  If I add 100 grams of salt to my 1000kg of water, the
sodium will be 23/58 * 100g, or about 40g, and the Cl- will be about 60g,
from the proportion of their atomic masses.  So, my tank of water will be
40 ppm in Na+ and 60 ppm in Cl- ions, when I've dissolved & stirred, since
I started with perfect water.  
	Does this help any?  I haven't looked at the charts in the books.
			---Victor

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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 10:59:31 PDT
From: Robert Pulliam <Robert_Pulliam at aja.rand.org>
Subject: Various questions


First of all, I would like to thank the many people who responded to
my request for plans to build a counterflow chiller (Thanks.)

Secondly, a few questions:

  1.  For a 30 foot chiller, what might I expect the temperature of the
      exiting water to be.  Must I use a hot water rated hose?

  2.  When calculating my extraction efficiency, do I use the gravity of
      the wort fresh from the tun or after the boil?

  3.  Is there an advantage to using a thick mash compared to using an
      extremely thin one that would give me say 7-8 gallons on first
      runnings without having to add additional sparge water?

			     and finally

  4.  I seem to recall a thread somewhere that discussed having to bring
      up the temperature of cold fermented beers near the end of the
      fermentation cycle to help remove somthingorother.  Is this a
      figment of my imagination or something I need to be doing?


Robert J. Pulliam            |+|all thoughts, statements, and opinions,|+|
Los Angeles, CA.             |+|demented or not, should be my own; and |+|
pulliam at monty.rand.org       |+|I'm certainly not associated . . . . . |+|

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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 15:22:38 EDT
From: lyons%adc3 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: Geary's Pale Ale

I recently sampled Geary's Pale Ale.  I was very impressed by the 
flavor profile.  Does anyone on the net have an idea of which yeast 
is used or which would most closely match it?

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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 16:42:19 EDT
From: LeRoy S. Strohl <lstrohl at s850.mwc.edu>
Subject: Re: Mark Garetz query about old book, HBD1189

The following information was located in the National Union Catalog.

Southby, E.   R.
   A systematic handbook of practical brewing: including a full
   description of the buildings, plant, materials and processes
   required for brewing all descriptions of beer, both from malt alone
   and from mixtures of malt with all descriptions of unmalted grain...
   By E.R. Southby... 2d ed. London, E.R. Southby, 1885.
   (7), viii, 391 p.  23cm.

The catalog copy of this work was provided by the University of Chicago
and I could find no listing of a first editon.

Southby was also the author of an earlier work (1877) entitled:
   Brewing; practically and scientifically considered.
   London, Printed by Unwin Brothers, 1877.
   150 p.

Hope this helps.

*********************************************
roy strohl     		lstrohl at s850.mwc.edu

proudly drinking one homebrew at a time
*********************************************





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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 18:54:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: VLACICH_ at bentley.edu
Subject: cancel subscription

I would like to cancel my subscription.
	thank you,
		jason


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 1993 18:11:13 -0800
From: pohl at unixg.ubc.ca (Derrick Pohl)
Subject: Digital vs. lexical yeast

Is there some reason why most people on the HBD refer to the Wyeast yeasts
by number rather than by name?  Like for instance, are the same numbered
yeasts sold by different names in different parts of the continent?  Or do
the numbers refer to some universal system of identifying strains of yeast?
 Or do people just like the scientific ring to using a number rather than a
name?  If each number has a unique name and the name is the same wherever
Wyeast is sold, then why not use the names?  I for one find it much easier
to remember the names, and when I go to the brewing store I don't ask for a
pouch of "good ol' number 1038" (or whatever), I ask for "London Ale" or
"Bohemian Lager" yeast.  I suppose I could tape an old package up on the
wall by my computer for quick reference, but this seems a little awkward,
and people are liable to think I'm even more obsessed with brewing than
they already do.

Maybe people could at least include the name along with the number for
those of us whose brains haven't entirely melded with our silicon yet.

- -----
Derrick Pohl (pohl at unixg.ubc.ca)
UBC Faculty of Graduate Studies, Vancouver, B.C.


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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 20:23 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Crushoff in Portland

 
 >From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
 >Subject: Hot liquor tanks
 
 >Has anyone converted a hot water heater into a hot liquor tank?  I
 have two options: 220V electric with 2 elements or a gas fired unit.
 
 One problem with a closed water heater you may want to think about is the 
 fact that chlorine and other volatiles in the water have nowhere to go.  In 
 an open vessel they evaporate continually.
 
 >From: Conn Copas <C.V.Copas at lut.ac.uk>
 >Subject: Re : syphoning through hops
 
 >I employ Kinney's tip on using pot scrubbers to prevent hops clogging the
 syphon, but my system is more a mesh-bag-in-a-pot-scrubber than
 a pot-scrubber-in-a-bag. Reason? It makes sense to apply a series of
 progressively finer filters in order to prevent the mesh from clogging too
 quickly.
 
 All of this, of course, is unnecessary with an easymasher installed in the 
 mash tun/boiler.  However, in my one exerience dryhopping in a carboy I 
 solved the problem of siphoning by simply sliding the em strainer tube over 
 the end of the siphon and being the same diameter, it fit like a glove and 
 worked like a champ.
 
 For those not wanting or needing the em, you can still solve the siphon 
 problem with a tube made of screen slid over the end of the siphon with the 
 end pinched.  You can slide it up or down to expose as much screen as you 
 wish and when you get near the bottom you just push the tube down so only a 
 14 inch or so is exposed.
 
 Just roll a 2 X 6 inch piece of screen over 3/8" diameter rod and pinch and 
 bend the las half inch to seal it off.  Slip this over the end of siphon 
 tube.  BTW, if you put this on the end of piece of coppur tubing and bend it 
 so that the screen lies flat on the bottom and the other end rises over the 
 edge of the pot, you have a portable easymasher.
 
 js

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Date: Mon, 26 Jul 93 21:35:01 -0700
From: jgibbens at polyslo.csc.calpoly.edu (Jonathan Gibbens)
Subject: Intro & a question

Howdy fellow brewers,
My name is Jon Gibbens and I've been brewing for about 7 months now.  I've been
reading the HBD for about 2 years now and figured it was time to "show my face."
Anyway, all my recipies so far have been your standard Papazian-influenced
dry extract recipies with a little of my own creative flair thrown in for
good measure.  I just got done brewing my 14th batch, a raspberry porter
a la "Goat Scrotum Ale" with 9 lbs of raspberries added for good measure.

My question is:  This last batch was my first batch to go in a plastic fermenter
,all my previous ones have been in glass.  How do you sufficiently aereate 
your wort before it goes into the fermenter?  In glass it's easy..just cap 
the carboy and start shakin' like mad, turn it this way and that, upside down,
you know the whole story.  I was thinking that maybe the next time I do this,
I'll FIRST put it in a glass fermenter and shake it up, then pour it out
into the plastic fermenter and THEN pitch my yeast.  

Now for an obligatory recipie: Being unable to find a recipe anywhere for
a weizenbock, I made up my own.  I'm not sure about the "authenticness",
but who cares?

Wacky Weizenbock

6 lbs Brewmaster Dried Wheat Extract
3 lbs Brewmaster Dried Amber Malt Extract
1/2 lb chocolate malt
2 oz Hallertauer fresh hops (boiling - 1 hour)
1/2 oz Hallertauer fresh hops (flavor - last 20 minutes)
1/2 oz Hallertauer fresh hops (aroma - last 2 minutes)
Wyeast Liquid Wheat Beer Yeast

Prepare according to the standard Papazian method for extract beers.
Starting gravity:  1.61   Starting Potential alcohol:  9%
Ending gravity:    1.16   Ending Potential alcohol:    2%
Primary and Secondary fermentation took 1 month.  I believe that the
high alcohol content (7%) pickled the yeast and stopped fermentation in
it's tracks.  Bottled with 1 1/4 cup DME.

It turned out really good!  Fruity and dark with a very noticeable alcohol
smell.  

Anyway, keep on brewin'
Jon Gibbens

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1190, 07/27/93