FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  HBD Subscription (r.wize)
  homebrew supply shop ?? ("BRIAN OWENS")
  Aeration (Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171  28-Jul-1993 0932)
  Extract efficency / Diacetyl Rest (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  jever thanks/low head retention/spiced beers (Chris Pencis)
  My First Batch ("Palmer.John")
  Re: American Standard Lager (Rick Myers)
  Re: Hot Water Heaters (Jeff Frane)
  FUN (Jack Schmidling)
  Correction, Bud bashing (Jeff Benjamin)
  New Brewer (Philip . Miller)
  Re: innoculating a starter from a petri dish (Todd Gierman)
  I'm back/Brewing careers/Chiller h2o/Mash thickness/Zima (npyle)
  St Louis Pubs/Bars (BadAssAstronomer)
  large SS brew put available (Bart Thielges)
  misc (Jim Busch)
  Wort Chiller Efficiency ("John C. Post")
  Re: Lager under water (Mark_Davis.osbu_south)
  Dallas beer info - Thanks! (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
  Dallas beer info - Thanks! (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
  Brussels Trip (roberts735)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sun, 25 Jul 93 17:39:00 BST
From: r.wize at genie.geis.com
Subject: HBD Subscription

I would like to receive the HBD.
 My address is r.wize at genie.geis.com
 
Thx alot,
 
Rick Wize

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Date: 28 Jul 93 07:54:00 EST
From: "BRIAN OWENS" <8160OWENS at indy.navy.mil>
Subject: homebrew supply shop ??

Hi All,  Long time listener, first time caller.

  My question goes to the Brew shop owners (and anyone else interested).
Do you have any data that would tell what size population would support a 
homebrew supply shop?    Has a market survey ever been conducted to 
determine this type of information?   What size is the city you live in, 
and how many homebrew shops are in the area?  Thanks for any info you can 
share. 

Brian



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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 09:37:36 EDT
From: Keith A. MacNeal HLO1-1/T09 DTN 225-6171 28-Jul-1993 0932 <macneal at pate.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Aeration

If you are doing a partial boil and dumping the hot wort into cold water
you probably don't have to worry too much about aeration (unless you've
preboiled your cold water).  Pouring the hot wort through a sanitized strainer
will also aerate it (as well as help remove hops and break material).  I
used this method for a full boil after cooling with a wort chiller and it 
seemed to work OK.

If you don't like the strainer idea and want to siphon, you can simply put
the lid on without an airlock and shake well.  Other folks have used an
aquarium pump and aeration stone.

Someone the other day suggested that washing bottles in a dishwasher would
merely sanitize and not sterilize.  He was right, but sanitizing is all that
is really necessary and is all bleach/iodine/whatever solutions will do anyway.

Keith MacNeal
Digital Equipment Corp.
Hudson, MA

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 08:48:24 EDT
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: Extract efficency / Diacetyl Rest

Re: Extract efficency - I was under the impression that measuring the pre and 
post boil extract effiecency would result in unequal values.  That the post
boil value would be lower due to the precipitation of break materials.
Has any one measured this?  Do they differ?  By how much?

Re: Diacetyl rests - I too use the method described in Noonanan's book on
lagers.  I do a primary at 45F, diacetyl rest for 3 days at 48F then rack to 
2ndary and "Hunter lager" at 40F I then chill to near 32F for the last week
before kegging to percipitate out yeast and haze.

Re: Brewing Techniques
I too agree it is a fine magazine and that the 40 or so pages is a lot of 
material.  I am not an AHA member, but doesn't the $29 sent to the AHA cover
annual dues and the subscription to Zymurgy?  I too agree that the "don't
worry" philosophy gets old fast.
 

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 9:14:36 CDT
From: chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu (Chris Pencis)
Subject: jever thanks/low head retention/spiced beers

Hey everyone - first I want to thank everyone for the responses
to my question about Jever...I believe I received something
like 15 or 18 responses (please forgive my not responding to
each individually).  I now own a copy of Michael Jackson's Pocket
Guide where the virtues of Jever are detailed - and yes, Fresia is 
in the northernmost regions of Germany (including the Fresian Is.).

Here's my questions:
   I seem to be having trouble with head retention in all of my beers
   including store bought Sierra Nevada Summerfest et al.  I believe 
   cause may be residue in my glassware.  However, I wash the glasses
   in the dishwasher with Cascade detergent - I use energy saver settings
   for the dry cycle.  Let me clarify problems - there is sufficient 
   carbonation in everything - the bubbles form about a 1/2-1" head on
   pouring but quickly subside to no more than 1/16" head to none at all.
   Any ideas....is this paranoia?

   Secondly - I am considering brewing a spiced ale for Christmas this  
   year (its early but a few good months in the bottle and it takes me a
   while to get going anyway).  I have done thread searches on back issues 
   of the HBD and have looked in the Cat's Meow and have yet to see a clear
   agreement among brewers/recipes (*is such a thing possible*) as to the
   best way to add the flavoring: dry to the boil, dry hop, spice *tea*,
   or gloegg.  Opinions (open the flood gates...)?  Note: I am an extract
   brewer and am looking for o.g.s from 1040-1060.

   One last thing - I was watching STNG last night and it occurred to me
   to wonder just how the stardates are calculated...any answers?

   Sorry for the longwindedness ... thanks in advance
                good luck and good beer
                                        Chris
======================================================================
|Chris Pencis 				chips at coleslaw.me.utexas.edu |
|University of Texas at Austin		Robotics Research Group	     |
======================================================================

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Date: 27 Jul 1993 16:05:13 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer#d#john at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: My First Batch

Hello Bruce (and all you other Bruces; "Crack Two")

I made my first batch of Homebrew a month ago, and it is yucky.  It was a kit
beer from our local brew shop, Fun Fermentations in Orange Ca, and was supposed
to be an American Lite beer.  The batch seemed to have a cidery smell and taste
the day I bolttled, (took me forever to get the  at #&$#*! siphon to work) and
after a month of aging, it doesn't taste any better.  The beer has great color,
a nice head, but the flavor is reminiscent of swamp water cider vinegar.  
Does anyone have a clue?  Had a similar batch?  I am wondering if my
fermentation temperature was too high, it was often in the upper 70's in the
house, probably 78.  Yes, it was an ale yeast.  BTW, I had a bottle of Paulener
Salvator the other day, and it had some of the same flavor tones as my beer. 
Was that bottle of Salvator too long on the shelf at the store ie. light
damaged?  Is that why it tasted like mine, or is mine actually good? (nah)  And
another thing, Has anyone ever noticed the laxative qualities of homebrew in
general or is this another symptom of my first batch?
John Palmer
PS.  I am really bummed that the Beer Hunter won't be on the Discovery Channel
again, I only have a couple episodes taped, and have been waiting to get the
others. 

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 9:28:07 MDT
From: Rick Myers <rcm at col.hp.com>
Subject: Re: American Standard Lager

> One thought: maybe we have been too harsh on Zima because we have
> been judging it against our standard criteria for beer. I don't think
> that Zima claims to be beer, but a malt beverage maybe (?), and it's
> probably labeled "malt liquor" because of the goofy alcohol laws we
> have in this country. So maybe Zima isn't bad for the *style*
> (whatever the hell that may be...), just like Bud is an excellent
> example of the American Standard Lager.
> 
> Not!

I definitely agree with the "Not!" part.  Bud is NOT an example
of the "American Standard Lager", it is "American PREMIUM
Lager" (yeah, right).  Examples of "standard" lagers are Schlitz,
Pabst, etc.

Rick "Will NOT drink Bud for food" Myers

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 09:14:19 -0700 (PDT)
From: gummitch at techbook.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Hot Water Heaters

Jack Schmidling responded to Jim Busch:

>  
>  >From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
>  >Subject: Hot liquor tanks
>  
>  >Has anyone converted a hot water heater into a hot liquor tank?  I
>  have two options: 220V electric with 2 elements or a gas fired unit.
>  
>  One problem with a closed water heater you may want to think about is the 
>  fact that chlorine and other volatiles in the water have nowhere to go.  In 
>  an open vessel they evaporate continually.
>  
>
It beats me why this should be a problem.  Jim is simply suggesting
using a hot water heater to provide very hot water for mashing,
sparging, etc.  Why should this be a chlorine problem?  

In answer to Jim's question, at least one of the McMenamin brewpubs in
Oregon uses exactly this system -- lots of pipes running out of that
water heater that aren't standard!

Jack, every hot liquor (water) system I've seen in a brewery is closed.

- --Jeff

PS.  I made it to one day of the AHA conference, attending the Board of
Advisors meeting and judging in the 2nd round of the competition.  All
of you stay-at-homes will be glad to know that the weather yesterday was
gorgeous (in the 80s), the programs were interesting, the beer was
excellent, and Portland is better than wherever you are.  Today, of
course (I'm back at work), it's cloudy, it'll probably rain, and all the
beer has spoiled.




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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:14 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: FUN

 
 Aint if fun seeing an article the morning after you submit it.  Knew 
 something good had to come from the AHA conference.  Got all those loudmouths 
 away from their keyboards. :)   < for the benefit of the humor impaired.
 
 re: Brewing Techniques
 
 >I too have received and started reading BT #2.  The editor pledged to keep
 advertising always less then 50% of the mag's content.  Apparently, a few
 people wrote in letters complaining about the size of the mag., but, when
 added up, it compares favorably to others.
 
 It will be interesting to see how long BT keeps that pledge.  Money and 
 sometimes survival have a strange way of making people forget their pledges.  
 If a non-profit group like AHA has degenerated to 90% ads, what do you expect 
 from a for-profit company like BT?   At the moment, BT can survive on fewer 
 ads because they don't pay contributors for articles.  And remember, it is 
 alway easy to get fresh new articles for a new publication but down the road, 
 they will have all the usual problems of getting stale.
 
 BT is a breath of fresh air but only subscribers and a much higher 
 subscription rate can keep it pure if combined with a rigid policy of ad 
 restriction.  However, ad sales people just do not say NO to one more ad.
 
 >From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
 >Subject: Hot water tanks
 
 >You can use a hot water heater, but not connected as a household water
 heater.  Connect the water input line as usual, but leave the top outlet
 open, perhaps with a wide clear open tube connected to the top outlet.
 
 Sounds like you have re-invented the EASYSPARGER.  Not sure why one would 
 want to heat a large amount of water and just let it sit or have to keep it 
 hot till needed.  The ES allows a continuous flow of hot water at any desired 
 temp, evaporates the chlorine, takes up only about .5 cuft of space and needs 
 to contain only one gallon of water.
 
 >In HBD #1190 Jonathan Gibbens asks:
 
 > How do you sufficiently aereate your wort before it goes into the
 fermenter?  In glass it's easy . . .
  
 The simplest method is to fill a one gallon jug and shake this a bit and then 
 just glug it into the fermenter.  With two jugs, you can be filling one while 
 glugging the other.
 
 The only problem is that this works so well, you will have to beat down the 
 foam to get all your wort in and you must, of course, use sanitized jugs.
 
 I did this for years with great success but now I have a pump and a narrow 
 nozzel at the end of the hose which provides aeration as it squirts into the 
 fermenter.
 
 >From: atzeiner at iastate.edu
 >Subject: innoculating a starter from a petri dish
 
 >I just started culturing yeast and have two ale yeast cultures in petri
 dishes..... I was wondering if it was possible that there was enough yeasties 
 in the glob that I picked up to make a decent starter in only a few hours.  
 How much yeast should you pick up to innoculate a 6 or 7 oz starter??
 
 You can, theroetically, innoculate a whole batch with a single cell but this 
 and your approach are not recommended for a very good reason.
 
 One cell of culture yeast would be competing with many cells of uninvited 
 stuff, even in a sanitary environment, and would probably lose the race to 
 get established.  The larger the amount of culture and the smaller the batch 
 size, the better the prospects of winning.
 
 I would not start more than 50 ml or so with a loop-full of culture.  When 
 this is fermenting, you can start 200 ml and to do it right, start 500 ml 
 with this.  I would never attempt to start a batch with less that 500 ml of 
 working wort.
 
 You would be much better off to transfer the petri culture to slants and use 
 these to start your starter.  I cover the slant with wort and use this as a 
 one time, pure culture starter.
 
 The petri stage can be eliminated entirely if you are confident of the 
 qualtiy of the original slant culture.  Just transfer a single innoculation 
 to a half dozen slant tubes and use these to start others.  You don't have to 
 go back to the original unless you screw up or something changes.
 
 js
 
 

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 10:26:52 MDT
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Correction, Bud bashing

Whoops, I just noticed an error in my previous post that might be
confusing.

> > 2.  When calculating my extraction efficiency, do I use the gravity of
> >     the wort fresh from the tun or after the boil?
> 
> Assuming you add no water during the boil, both measurements should give
> you pretty much the same thing.  The amount of water evaporating will be
> proportional to the increase in gravity.

The above statement is not correct.  The gravity before the boil is
usually quite different from the gravity after the boil.  After all, one
of the purposes of the boil is to increase the gravity.

What I meant was that the total number of points stays constant.  Using
the v*p=T formula, if T is constant, then v and p are inversely
proportional.  So obviously if v goes down, p (gravity) goes up.

> So maybe Zima isn't bad for the *style*
> (whatever the hell that may be...), just like Bud is an excellent
> example of the American Standard Lager.
> 
> Not!

We hear a lot of "Bud bashing" in this forum.  Having drunk my share of
Bud, Miller, Old Style, Red White & Blue, Huber, etc., I'll step out on
a limb and defend the megabreweries (he says, as he dons his asbestos
undies).

Most serious beer people pooh-pooh the "American Standard Lager", but
that style certainly fills a niche.  The term "lawnmower" beer is not
inapproriate, as a Budweiser is exeactly what I feel like drinking after
mowing the lawn on a hot day.  Why not just drink water, some would say.
To my palate, the slight bitterness of American swill is more refreshing.

I would also challenge many skeptical homebrewers to brew a lager as
light and clean as a Bud.  Ingredients are quite different from your 
average homebrew (uncured malt, adjuncts, etc.), you need techniques to
minimize wort darkening and esters, and sanitation is paramount, as the
slightest off flavor or aroma will be noticeable.

In fact, early in my homebrewing career I tried to brew a Bud clone, and
didn't even manage to come close.  Becoming a homebrewer actually 
increased my appreciation of what the big boys do.

- --
Jeff "still use Milwaukee's Best mostly for cooking" Benjamin
benji at hpfcla.fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:48:25 CDT
From: pmiller at mmm.com (Philip . Miller)
Subject: New Brewer

Dennis asks:

>Does anyone know if _The New Brewer_ is of the same "quality" as
>Zymurgy? It's published by the Institute for Brewing Studies (all in
>the same office as the AHA, and others) and is billed as a "must-have"
>for anyone interested in or working in the micro/brewpub field.

My wife bought me a subscription to NB last year as a present.  While
the magazine still has a fair amount of advertising (but it's INTERESTING
advertising because it's for bottling lines and 2 bbl systems rather than
cans of syrup), the content is better than the average Zymurgy article
in my opinion.

Typically there will be an interviews or articles written by microbrewers
about some facet of running a brewery.  A couple of issues ago, a brewer
talked about cobbling together a bottling line and the difficulties
therein.  This issue, there was a very interesting article about a pair
of brewpub owners philosophy of running their business.  (Basically, they
said to concentrate on the food and atmosphere because just having good
beer won't pay the bills.)  There are also opening and closing notices
of breweries across the country as well as a page or two describing
events of general interest to the brewing community (such as pending
legislation.)

If I were a microbrewer or a brewpub owner, I think I'd find the $55
subscription fee worth my while but NB falls somewhat short of a "must-
have".

Since much of the information in NB doesn't pertain to me, I'll probably
let the subscription lapse....


Phil Miller
pmiller at mmm.com

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 13:11:01 -0500
From: tmgierma at raphael.acpub.duke.edu (Todd Gierman)
Subject:  Re: innoculating a starter from a petri dish


atzeiner at iastate.edu (Tue, 27 Jul 93 12:18:56 CDT) writes:

>I just started culturing yeast and have two ale yeast cultures in petri
>dishes.  Out of curiosity, I used my innoculating loop to scrape up a glob of
>yeast and put it into a starter bottle(~1/2 full 12 oz. beer bottle).  I didnt
>really see much sign of fermentation, but after about 3 or 4 hours I looked at
>it and it seemed to have yeast sediment in it.  I was wondering if it was
>possible that there was enough yeasties in the glob that I picked up to make a
>decent starter in only a few hours.  How much yeast should you pick up to
>innoculate a 6 or 7 oz starter??  
> 
That must have been some glob!  Generally, a good starting volume when
picking colonies (globs) from agar is probably  no more than 2-4
milliliters of media (wort) - remember, less is more.  You will see yeast
sediment in your container (usually a small one, e.g. test tube) and
bubbles trapped at the surface by the next day.  At this point the volume
can be increased 10-20 fold and then doubled each day thereafter, until you
reach your pitching volume (1-2 liters).  

Why start with such a small volume and work your way up?  Well, when
culturing unicellar organisms such as yeast, bacteria, or animal cells, a
minimum cell density is often required in order to promote and maintain
vigorous growth.  The stimulation of growth and metabolism  requires the
presence of factors that are secreted into the media (in this case secreted
by the yeast into the wort).  A low cell density probably means a low level
of growth factors.  Thus, you may experience either no growth or an
incredible lag time, when inoculating large volumes. 

The schedule that I have suggested for increasing your culture volume
requires nearly a week.  Some planning ahead is required.  You could start
a culture anytime, work it up to a liter, allow the yeast to grow to
saturation, and then stick the culture into the refridgerator for a week or
two, until you are ready to pitch.  Such a scheme would supply you with an
excellent pitching culture, allowing your fermentation to get underway
quite rapidly.  Certainly, 1-2 liters seem like quite a lot, but those
40-ml Wyeast pouches are quite a little, though many people do get by with
that amount.

When picking from a plate, I would suggest that you pick more than one
colony.  Each colony originates from a single cell.  Many commercial yeast
cultures contain more than one strain of yeast (e.g. Whitbread).  The fewer
the colonies picked the better the chance that you have eliminated a strain
from your culture (you know what that means).  Pick from a region where
many colonies have grown together.  Scrape your loop along the entire
region and inoculate your culture.  

Hope this proves useful.

Todd M. Gierman
Department of Microbiology
Duke University Medical Center


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:15:22 MDT
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: I'm back/Brewing careers/Chiller h2o/Mash thickness/Zima

Well, I return after a few weeks off to change jobs.  In the meantime,
I've brewed a wonderful American Pale Ale called Pyle Style Pale Ale.  It is
all-grain, using Mt. Hood and Cascade hops.  If there is interest, I'd be glad
to post the recipe.

Jim Busch said in the last digest:

><questions about extract & a brewing career, snip
>
>First, if you are serious about being a pro brewer, you should really
>switch to all grain brewing ASAP.  Its not that much harder or expensive
>and you will start to learn what its like to do the real thing.
>
>Secondly, we need more brewers with backgrounds in Chemistry.  This is
>not enough by itself, but you can augment this knowledge by inrolling in
>Seibels short course in brewing technology or whatever they call it.  It
>is a 12 week course in Chicago.  Before or after this, work in a brewery
>doing anything to gain knowledge/experience.

I agree completely.  If you are serious about it, get serious about it.  You
won't impress any brewmeisters with a background in extract brewing.  I have
heard of some brewpubs that extract brew but I can't imagine how they make a
profit; also, there are very few of them.  That said, read on:

I went to a Brewer's Dinner at the Walnut Brewery in Boulder last month and ate,
drank, and talked with the Brewmaster, Head Brewer, and Assistant Brewer.  It
was a wonderful evening, with awesome food and a brewery tour to boot!  The
Brewmaster, Mark Youngquist, is a young professionally trained brewer who
really knows his stuff.  He was very impressive, although he basically works in
a management/advisory role now.  He sets up new breweries (ala the Rock Bottom
Brewery in downtown Denver; also a new one is opening in Minnesota, I think),
fixes up old ones (Boulder Brewing Company, now Rockies Brewing), and solves
problems.  The Head Brewer is an ex-kitchen guy, who knows food at least as well
as he knows beer.  He, with the Assistant Brewer, brews all of the beer sold
at the brewpub.  I think they brew twice a week, which are 12 hour days to do
two batches.  The rest of the time is maintenance, stocking, cleaning, etc. etc.
The Assistant Brewer was off to Minnesota (I think) to become the Head Brewer at
the new Rock Bottom and a new assistant brewer was introduced.  This guy had no,
absolutely no, brewing experience.  I was more than a little surprised.  I guess
the lesson learned is:  anyone can get a job in a brewery if you are willing to
do a lot of hard work for, I guess, very little pay.  If you stick with it, you
can learn a lot and go places.

Jim also comments on Robert Pulliams questions:

><From: Robert Pulliam <Robert_Pulliam at aja.rand.org>
>Subject: Various questions
>
><1.  For a 30 foot chiller, what might I expect the temperature of the
>      exiting water to be.  Must I use a hot water rated hose?
>
>Close to water temp.

I don't think this clears it up.  The exiting water will start out being very
close to boiling with an immersion chiller.  This is because you place the
immersion chiller in the pot while the boil is still active (to sanitize the
chiller).  The temperature will quickly drop several 10's of degrees for the
first few minutes and eventually approach the temperature of the tap water.
counterflow chiller will be a bit different, I think, since the exit water is
only in contact with the hottest wort for the last few seconds.  This one will
probably cause the exit water to start out something less than boiling and
remain near this temperature until all of the hot wort is siphoned.

><2.  When calculating my extraction efficiency, do I use the gravity of
>      the wort fresh from the tun or after the boil?
>
>after.

It doesn't matter (now watch me contradict myself!).  In theory, if you use the
before-boil gravity, use the before-boil volume.  If you use the after-boil
gravity, use the after-boil volume.  The number should be the same.  The real
question is whether to include losses such as liquid trapped in the kettle hops,
or break material left behind in the boiler.  Since everyone is most concerned 
with the efficiency of the mash/lautering process, I propose that the
before-boil numbers be used to ignore the later losses.  An overall efficiency
could be calculated which would indicate where your losses are occurring, but I
suggest this is only important to commercial operations.  And remember:  In
practice, the difference between theory and practice is greater than it is in
theory.

><3.  Is there an advantage to using a thick mash compared to using an
>      extremely thin one that would give me say 7-8 gallons on first
>       runnings without having to add additional sparge water?
>
>Thin is Ok up to about 2 litres/lb of grain.

This is the short answer.  I've read about this a bit and, from memory (this is
probably a bad idea), I recall that thick mashes favor one enzyme, while thin
mashes favor the other (good, I didn't try to name which was which!).

In practice, if you have a mash tun without a heat source (or even if you do!)
you can have both.  Start out with a thick mash (maybe 1qt/lb).  When the
temperature drops below your desired range, add hot water to bring it up to
temp, which of course thins the mash.  You can do this several times.  At the
end, you can add lots of hot sparge water to bring the temp up to mashout range.
Then, you can drain the entire contents of the tun without adding sparge water.
This method, and variations on it work for me, a professed lazy brewer, but my
efficiency is only around 23-26 points per pound of grain.  This of course
doesn't bother me in the least since I have more time to play with kids and
wife while brewing.

About Zima:  you guys are all up in arms about nothing.  It is not beer, they
don't sell it as beer.  They sell it as a new alchoholic beverage.  It tastes
sweet, with some citrus overtones.  It does not taste like beer, not even like
Coors Light.  It is selling like crazy, too.  Don't worry about it; it keeps the
barley farmers in business, which is good.

Glad to be back.  Hope you all are glad to have me, or at least aren't
unsubscribing at too fast a rate!

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 13:20:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: BadAssAstronomer <STOREY at fender.msfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: St Louis Pubs/Bars


    Hi everyone

    I have plans to be in St. Louis in a couple of weeks. I have plans
    to drink beer while I'm there, and it won't be Bud. If there are
    any brewpubs or bars that I should look up, please e-mail me at

    storey at fender.msfc.nasa.gov

    Boy! This is a great service. Not too many forums in which you can
    ask it's members which bars to hit!

    thanks
    scott

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 11:31:15 PDT
From: nexgen!bart at olivea.ATC.Olivetti.Com (Bart Thielges)
Subject: large SS brew put available

This weekend at a flea market I found a very large stainless steel
brew pot.  It is about 28 inches diameter and 20 inches deep.  It has
two handles and a faucet in the side about 1/2 inch from the bottom.
It is used and rather dinged up, but usable.  The guy who is selling it
said he used it to cook large batches of soup.  "You can put the whole
pig in !" he exclaimed.  He was asking $40 for it.  If you live in the
San Jose, CA, USA area and are interested I can get his phone # to you.
You would have to see it in person to be sure it is what you want.  I doubt
he would be willing to ship it.

(Is there a way to limit broadcast of a message like this to only homebrewers
in a specific geographic area ?)

Bart


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 14:43:52 EDT
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: misc

I wasnt too clear on a few points made yesterday.  Heres an attempt to
clarify things:

RE: counterflow chilling, the exit temp of the chiller water can be quite
hot.  I have 12 feet of prechiller that exits over 100F, then feeds 50
feet of main line chilling.  This water wasnt measured but is still 
warm.  The great part of this thing is it doubles as a wort pipeline 
between my brewery in my backyard and my cellar.


<From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: CO2

First of all, this will only work if we assume that the source tank was a 
 siphon type, i.e., dispenses liquid CO2 and not the type one could use for
 beer dispensing.  If you use a top venting tank, all you get is gas and will 
 only get the 800 psi that is in the source tank.  This might be enough to 
 dispense a bunch of beer but nowhere near what you would get if filled with 
 liquid CO2.  It's like filling a tire from a compressor that is shut off.  
 When the tire pressure equals the tank pressure, that's all you get.

I should of prefaced my comments with: I use four CO2 tanks in my brewery.
3 are 20# tanks used for carbonating and dispensing.  The fourth is a small
tank that I use for traveling (I hate to lug a tank as big as a 5 gal keg).
I can get enough gas into a small tank from a 20# to dispense several 5
gal kegs so this is a convienent way to put gas into a travel tank.  It is
certainly impossible to "fill the small" tank from the big one.

<Just tried the dry-hopping technique described in the recent Zymurgy. 

Whole hops (used Hallertau in a weizen)

A nit here since I am a weizen nitter: If you dry hopped it, it isnt a weizen!
It may be an excellent american wheat ale though.

Good brewing,
Jim Busch

DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!




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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 13:13:26 -0800
From: "John C. Post" <jpost@ llnl.gov>
Subject: Wort Chiller Efficiency

 Jeff Benjamin sez...
 
 > 1.  For a 30 foot chiller, what might I expect the temperature of the
 >     exiting water to be.  Must I use a hot water rated hose?
 
 >Well, the closer the exiting water is to 100C, the more efficiency you're
 >getting.  I've never measured the temp of the water coming out of my
 >40-foot counterflow chiller, by I can empirically say that it's *hot*.
 
 I don't agree, at least about the hot exit water indicating efficiency.
 What is important is the total energy transfer, which happens 
 much more efficiently with a greater delta T between the cooling water and
 the hot wort. Chillers are by definition more efficient at the first contact
 point than the last. A high flow rate of cooling water  with a minimum
 delta T OF THE COOLING WATER between outlet and inlet can be more efficient
 than a lower flow rate and higher delta T, since the efficiency along the
 length of the chiller is more constant and representative to the initial
 efficiency. 
 
 
 I could be wrong, but this always worked out on the ranch....
 
 
 john post
 jpost@ llnl.gov
 
 



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Date: 	Wed, 28 Jul 1993 13:22:29 PDT
From: Mark_Davis.osbu_south at xerox.com
Subject: Re: Lager under water


(The caps are made of regular steel or maybe tin, but not
stainless or aluminum, and are coated with some sort of anodizing (I
guess from the color inside only.) I know they aren't SS or Al
because the magnet in my capper holds onto them.

In the process of capping, the cup that seats the cap may scrape off
enough of the coating to expose the underlying metal. While this rust
would only be on the outside, it would make you think twice about
drinking the contents. I suggest capping a couple bottles of water
and testing it out first.)

I had the same problem except I had rust on the bottle caps of the brew that
had been aged for an extended time, so someone suggested putting petrolium
jelly on the caps to keep them from rusting. I have tried this and it works.
All you need to do is take an old rag and put some petrolium jelly on it then
rub a little on each cap after the bottling is finished, it's easy if you have
the bottles in a case container.

Mark Davis			<Mark_Davis.osbu_south at Xerox.com>

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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 15:25:00 -0800
From: mfetzer%ucsd.edu at chem.UCSD.EDU (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
Subject: Dallas beer info - Thanks!

Thank you, Craig, Keith and Jay!!

The info I received was right on the nose, and I'm quite sure I couldn't
have found these places without your help.

To the net: the folks above responded with pointers to my query 'where to
drink in Dallas'. The info I got was, there aren't any brewpubs yet (just
recently legalized) but there are some pubs worth going to.

Number one for any Dallas visitors: 
        The Gingerman
        2718 Boll St.
        Dallas TX
        (214) 754-8771
Right behind Hard Rock Cafe off McKinney Ave. 50+ beers on tap, and a lot
more than that bottled.

Number two: Head to the West End. Plenty of bars, pubs, lots of outdoor
nightlife, at least in July. :) Live bands playing free outdoors, at 1am on
Sundays and Mondays (the two nights I was there)??? Is this normal? Wow.
There's a brewery there, whose products I didn't get a chance to sample,
but they're available at the Outback Pub, an Aussie/English/yuppie style
pub.

I received recomendations for Flip's restaurant and the London Tavern,
which I also unfortunatly didn't have time to see.

I sampled 3 Texas brews: 

Shiner bock, which is not bad but not impressive. An American bock,
basically, but you justhave to have it if you're down there. :)

Celis White, the finest American brewed (as opposed to American style)
wheat beer I've had. It rivals it's Bavarian ancestors, and is unlike the
American wheats made by e.g., Widmer.

Celis Grand Cru, an interesting attempt at a Belgian style. It's too light
in color and body to be a true Grand Cru, but they really have the flavor
down. How do they do this? Anyone know? It tastes like a true lambic. I'd
love to get a bit of that into the raspberry ale I just made. A must try!

Thanks again to the folks that responded to my query. Made life so easy to
zip around a town I've never been too, but knew exactly where to go in. :)
:) :)

Michael

__
Michael Fetzer                         pgp 2.2 key available on request
Internet:      mfetzer at ucsd.edu        uucp:    ...!ucsd!mfetzer
Bitnet:        FETZERM at SDSC            
HEPnet/SPAN:   SDSC::FETZERM           or       27.1::FETZERM


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 1993 15:42:23 -0800
From: mfetzer%ucsd.edu at chem.UCSD.EDU (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
Subject: Dallas beer info - Thanks!

Thank you, Craig, Keith and Jay!!

The info I received was right on the nose, and I'm quite sure I couldn't
have found these places without your help.

To the net: the folks above responded with pointers to my query 'where to
drink in Dallas'. The info I got was, there aren't any brewpubs yet (just
recently legalized) but there are some pubs worth going to.

Number one for any Dallas visitors: 
_The Gingerman
_2718 Boll St.
_Dallas TX
_(214) 754-8771
Right behind Hard Rock Cafe off McKinney Ave. 50+ beers on tap, and a lot
more than that bottled.

Number two: Head to the West End. Plenty of bars, pubs, lots of outdoor
nightlife, at least in July. :) Live bands playing free outdoors, at 1am on
Sundays and Mondays (the two nights I was there)??? Is this normal? Wow.
There's a brewery there, whose products I didn't get a chance to sample,
but they're available at the Outback Pub, an Aussie/English/yuppie style
pub.

I received recomendations for Flip's restaurant and the London Tavern,
which I also unfortunatly didn't have time to see.

I sampled 3 Texas brews: 

Shiner bock, which is not bad but not impressive. An American bock,
basically, but you justhave to have it if you're down there. :)

Celis White, the finest American brewed (as opposed to American style)
wheat beer I've had. It rivals it's Bavarian ancestors, and is unlike the
American wheats made by e.g., Widmer.

Celis Grand Cru, an interesting attempt at a Belgian style. It's too light
in color and body to be a true Grand Cru, but they really have the flavor
down. How do they do this? Anyone know? It tastes like a true lambic. I'd
love to get a bit of that into the raspberry ale I just made. A must try!

Thanks again to the folks that responded to my query. Made life so easy to
zip around a town I've never been too, but knew exactly where to go in. :)
:) :)

Michael

__
Michael Fetzer                         pgp 2.2 key available on request
Internet:      mfetzer at ucsd.edu        uucp:    ...!ucsd!mfetzer
Bitnet:        FETZERM at SDSC            
HEPnet/SPAN:   SDSC::FETZERM           or       27.1::FETZERM


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Date: Wed, 28 Jul 93 18:13:10 EDT
From: roberts735 at aol.com
Subject: Brussels Trip

A close friend, and business associate is going to Brussels for a week, and
asks what beers to bring back for me?  If you could select three or four,
what would  they be?

Thanks
Bob
RobertS735 at aol.com

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1192, 07/29/93