FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  pts-gal/lb NOT pts/lb/gal (Geoff Reeves)
  Sparging, Slants (Jack Schmidling)
  Agar availability? (r.wize)
  Hopping techniques (was Pale Ale Recipe) (Lynn Kerby)
  All About Beer Magazine (Sean C. Lamb 335-6669 Loral)
  beer runs (Brian Bliss)
  Wild Hops ("Thomas Kavanagh, Curator")
  Wyeast question (Jim Sims)
  Brew Pubs in East Detroit. (Gerald_Wirtz)
  The Advertising Channel (Richard Childers)
  The FaceMail Project (Paul dArmond)
  Where to drink in... (Michael Berger)
  Decoction mashing (Don Doyle)
  Counterflow Questions (Jim Grady)
  KiWheat recipe (Jim Grady)
  Dough-in (Jack Schmidling)
  nj brewpubs finally legal (dave ballard)
  Cider Recipes (khenneus)
  spigot in stainless kettle (Joel Birkeland)
  Going Blind (Dan J Barnard)
  Bay Area/Los Gatos ("Raudins, Glenn D")
  Toronto Star Article (Norman Farrell)
  honey basil ale:  the sequel (Bryan L. Gros)
  Back from Portland/Bud-quality[sic]/Dishwasher glassware (korz)
  ULTRA LONG MASHES (SMUCKER)
  Re: please cancel my subscription (Riccardo Cristadoro)
  Celis (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)


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For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 16:57:54 -0700
From: reeves at lanl.gov (Geoff Reeves)
Subject: pts-gal/lb NOT pts/lb/gal

It occurs to me that a lot of the confusion over extraction rate, or yeild
may be due to the fact the people keep referring to pts/lb/gal (points per
pound per gallon). These are not the correct units and that may be why some
people are confused. The formula used is

        (OSG_beer - SG_water) * Volume_of_Beer / Pounds_of_Grain

Specific gravity is dimensionless but is referred to by "points" in brewing
so the dimensions are gallons/pound or point-gallons/pound (pts-gal/lb for
the abreviation inclined).
 
I know it doesn't _sound_right but it is. What you are really trying to
find out is how much total disoved sugars did you get out of your total
grain bill. 30 gallons of 1.056 beer has more dissolved sugars than 5 gal
of 1.056 beer so if you have the same extraction rate you need 6 times as
much grain. 

I hope this clears up some confusion for someone besides me.
Geoff

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|    A brewery is like a toothbrush. Everyone should have their own.      |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Geoff Reeves:  Space Science Division, Los Alamos National Laboratory   |
|                reeves at lanl.gov (internet) or  essdp2::reeves (span)     |
|                Phone (505) 665-3877                                     |
|                Fax   (505) 665-4414                                     |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+


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Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 00:06:01 GMT
From: uucp at attmail.com

>From uucp Fri Jul 30 17:00 1993
>From uucp Fri Jul 30 17:00 1993 remote from ch2m1
>From uucp Fri Jul 30 17:00 1993 remote from CH2MHILL
>From MGreenwald Fri Jul 30 17:00 1993 remote from SFO
From: CH2MHILL!SFO!MGreenwald at ch2m1.attmail.com
Date: 30 Jul 93 20:59:00 GMT
To: Homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com
Message-Service: mail
Message-Protocol: EMAIL
Received: from ch2m1 by attmail; Sat Jul 31 00:05 GMT 1993
Transport-Options: 
Subject: Celis in the SF area?
Content-Type: Text

I have had several pints of Celis White at our Oakland pub, Pacific Coast 
Brewery, and have fallen in love.  Do any of you SF area HBD'ers know of a 
local source for this wonderful stuff in bottles?.

Private email to CH2MHILL!SFO!MGreenwald at CH2M1.Attmail.com  if you'd rather 
not waste bandwidth on a regional answer, or post.

TIA,

Mike

P.S. I know the address is huge and screwy, but our gateway router mangles 
my reply address.


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Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 07:21 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Sparging, Slants

 
 >From: steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil (Steve Zabarnick)
 >Subject: Sparge water aeration and pH
 
 >My question concerns the aeration of and oxygen content of sparge water. One 
 common technique in professional breweries to sprinkle the sparge water from 
 a rotating arm (similar to the Phil Sparger). I would think that this would 
 do I good job of aerating the water. 
 
 I doubt that it would do a "good" job and suspect it is pretty much in the 
 noise.  More importantly, sprinkling the sparge water is totally unnecessary 
 if the level is kept above the grain an inch or so.  There simply is nothing 
 to be gained by spreading it around.  Someone put a shower head in a mash tun 
 and they have been used and misuesed ever since.  A homebrew equipment 
 manufacturer fell into the same trap and confused the hell out of beginners 
 with his rotating gizzmo.
 
 >My other question is about pH measurments of the mash and sparge water. How
 important is it to cool the samples before taking this measurement? I've
 been using a hand-held pH probe (which is supposed to be temperature
 compensated), which I just stick into the mash. Am I getting a correct
 measurement without cooling a sample of the mash?
 
 I have never been able to tell from the instructions or in use whether the 
 temp compensation means the instrument will function in a wide range of 
 environmental temps or if it will measure liquids at a wide range of temps.  
 As a result of my confusion, I cool all samples to room temp before 
 measuring.
 
 >From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
 >Subject: Hot liquor tanks & slants
 
 >I agree in principal that chlorine is a nonissue.  A lot of big breweries
 dont do anything to remove chlorine (big = 25 BBl in this sense).  The
 argument is that the chlorine is driven off in the kettle anyway.
 
 That is a tough point to argue.  However, it is not the chlorine that is the 
 problem in the first place but the byproducts of combining chlorine with 
 organics in the water.  There's lots of this stuff in the water by the time 
 it gets to your house and the grist supplies a monumental source of organics 
 for the chlorine to act upon.  It has also been pointed out that the 
 by-products are also volatile and boil off but lots of things are said and I 
 have not seen that documented to my satisfaction yet.
 
 > Is it true that BT is for profit?? 
 
 Probably not but certainly not by choice.
 
 > I wonder how "profitable" this kind of thing is.  I bet its like brewing, a 
 lot of sweat equity in every issue/batch.
 
 That is not the point.  The less profitable it is, the more ads they are 
 going to need to survive.
 
 >I dont know if a on demand hot water heater would be capable of providing
 26 gallons of 180F water in a 30 minute time frame.
 
 Anything is possible, it just depends on how much heat you have available.  I 
 have found that my stove top will produce about 10 gallons per hour at 180F.  
 This is the rate that I sparge at and it just marginal for ten gallon 
 batches.  If you need more water faster, you just need more heat.
 
 Just as an aside, in Africa, every place I went had gas fired demand water 
 heater in hotel and lodge bathrooms.  These hung on the wall near the 
 sink/shower and provided continuous very hot water.
 
 In Costa Rica, they use and electric shower head (scary huh?) that heats 
 water as one showers.  There's lots of stuff out there and it just seems like 
 there has to be a better way that holding large amounts of hot water.
 
 JS:
 
 <You would be much better off to transfer the petri culture to slants and use
 these to start your starter.  I cover the slant with wort and use this as a
 one time, pure culture starter.
 
 >This is not whats referred to as a "slant". THe first sentence is correct.
 The second sentence is a technique of preparing a starter. Covering the
 slant is not a good idea in my opinion.  You cover a small sample of yeast
 with wort, the slant is where the yeast is maintained and cultured from.
 The difference is a slant has agar with yeast growing on it. A starter
 has no agar.
 
 I am using the terms correctly.  It is the fact that I use slants in an 
 un-traditional manner that may be confusing.
 
 I make one-shot agar slants from petri cultures and from other slants but I 
 use them as one time starters like most people use Wyeast packs.
 
 Covering the slant with wort is an ideal way of starting the yeast as long as 
 it is not used again.  There is vastly more yeast on the agar then in a 
 typical liquid pack and a much stronger culture in introduced into the 
 starter flask.
 
 >From: tpm at wdl.loral.com (Tim P McNerney)
 >Subject: Re: innoculating a starter from a petri dish
  
 >My biggest problem with innocualting a starter from a petri dish is that
 I don't want to go through 5 different sized, sanitized starters to build
 up enough yeast.
 
 >3. How do other people build up a healthy sized started with spending half
 their life preparing storage vessels?
 
 The hard way.  What you perceive as a problem is just a necessary evil.  
 However, if you sterilize a pint of wort, you can add this in increments to 
 the flask and only sterilize the flask once and the wort once.  Still, there 
 seems something very unprofessional about starting 50 ml in a 1000 ml flask 
 but no real reason not to.
 
 js
 

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Date: Sat, 31 Jul 93 20:25:00 BST
From: r.wize at genie.geis.com
Subject: Agar availability?

I recently have become an all grain brewer and am now using the Brewers
Resource Culture kit.  My question is does anyone know of a recipe or a
source for just Agar?  Most of the catalogs I have seen sell Agar slants but
at a price of about .80 to $1.00 each (then adding shipping it hardly seems
worth it)  I'm sure I could get my hands on some test tubes, it is the Agar
which mystifies me.
 
Also I noticed alot of discussion about MaltMills in some older HBD's.  I
have just purchased a MaltMill and did my first brew this weekend
(previously I was using a Corona).  My yield increased by about 40%.  It
really has made what was a difficult chore (the corona) into something which
takes about 1/2 the time and has definitely improved my efficiency.  I'm not
sure of the relative merits of the Philmill but definitely sign me up as a
satisfied customer of the MAltMill!!!!
 
Rick Wize
 Syracuse, NY

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Date: Fri, 30 Jul 93 22:14 PDT
From: lfk at veritas.com (Lynn Kerby)
Subject: Hopping techniques (was Pale Ale Recipe)

In HBD1193 Norm Pyle writes:

Lots of recipie specifics trimmed above and below; I want to focus on
this:

> A note about hopping:  I was attempting to get most of my IBUs later in
> the boil to reduce some back of the tongue bitterness.  I wanted this to
> be a hop flavored beer, rather than just have bitterness to balance the
> malt.  On most beers I try for 50-60% of the bitterness at the 60 minute
> addition, but as you can see, I did not do that here.  I achieved my goal
> I think (see tasting notes).

I too have been thinking about trying something like this for quite a
while.  I have been shooting for 60-70% of my IBUs with an initial
addition of hops to the kettle and pick up the rest with 45-20 minute
boil additions (the hops are in for 45 to 20 minutes) depending on the
style I am trying to brew.

I have found that the beers are different when hopped this way.  The
differences that I have noticed are:  1) young beer isn't as harsh for
more bitter styles, 2) more hop flavor comes through in the finished
beer (as would be expected).  I suppose that the technique has the
desired effect of producing a beer with a more well-rounded bitterness
at the expense of some additional hops used in the brew.

Are there other brewers out there that are doing something similar
with their hopping techniques?  I would be interested in hearing about
experiences with beers that get a significant percentage of their IBUs
in later stages of the boil.

 - -
     Lynn Kerby  -  {apple,amdahl}!veritas!lfk or  lfk at veritas.com

Disclaimer: Any and all opinions expressed herein are my own and do not
            necessarily represent the views of anyone, especially my employer.

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Date: Sun, 1 Aug 93 13:56:01 CDT
From: Sean C. Lamb 335-6669 Loral <slamb at milp.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject: All About Beer Magazine


Chuck's post asking about a contact for 
Mr. Jackson has roused me from my summer 
lethargy enough to type up a short review of 
the latest issue of _All About Beer_ magazine.
(I suggested to Chuck that he try this mag
because Jackson writes a column and does
a taste-testing panel for them).
I've been a sbuscriber to AAB for the
last couple of years, mostly to get Jackson's
and Fred Eckhardt's columns.  Often
there has been info that is of value,
 but many articles were just
press-release puffery.  I've read rumors
that the cover of the mag was for sale
to an advertiser.

Mr. Daniel Bradford, late of the AHA
marketing Dept. and the GABF, has
taken over publishing the mag.  Knowing
what we do about these endeavors, this
may or may not speak well for the future
of the mag, but I'm willing to give people
a break now and then (Bob knows I 
need 'em).

To the point, the latest issue looks
stupendous, had a decent article by
James Robertson (can you say beer nerd?)
on brew in New Zealand, an hilarious
article by a C. S. Porter on being
out and about with Alan Eames at the
Beer Camp in Cincinatti/Ft. Mitchell,
a great profile of Carol Stoudt and her
brewery in Pennsylvania, and the return
of a beer industry column written by Mr.
Frank McNeirney, who is identified as 
the retired director of communciations
and industry affairs for the the Nat`l
Beer Wholsalers Assoc.  All in all
a keeper.  The info on brewpubs and
good pubs new and old is good and
getting better (I wouldn't have
know about the Old Peculier pub in
NYC if I hadn't seen it in AAB.  Came
in handy when I was there a couple of
years ago.) They've even toned
down the length and look of the
industry news section.  I hope that
they can sustain the effort.

Anyone else read this thing and
have any thoughts, opinions or
rants?
- -------------------------------------------------------- 
      .    _  .     _____________ 
      |\_|/__/|    /             \ 
     / / \/ \  \  / Happy! Happy! \      
    /__|O||O|__ \ \   Joy! Joy!   / 
   |/_ \_/\_/ _\ | \  ___________/      
   | | (____) | ||  |/                       
   \/\___/\__/  // _/
   (_/         ||   
    |  Real    ||\   Sean Lamb (slamb at milp.jsc.nasa.gov)
     \  Beer   //_/  
      \______//      Houston, Texas, USofA, Earth, Sol 
     __|| __||      
    (____(____)      
          


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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 01:31:15 -0500
From: bliss at pixel.convex.com (Brian Bliss)
Subject: beer runs


John Palmer writes:
>another thing, Has anyone ever noticed the laxative qualities of homebrew in
>general or is this another symptom of my first batch?

Letting the fermentation finish and the yeast settle out usually solves
that problem (wait another 2 months at cool temps).  Most new brewers can't
wait that long.  Darker Malts (i.e. roasted barley in stouts) also can cause
a dramatic increase in the amount of toilet paper used.  Severely oxidized
beer also upsets me, and the beginner's "strain the hot wort into the cold
water" method cerainly adds to that.

bb

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 08:20:16 EST
From: "Thomas Kavanagh, Curator" <TKAVANAG at ucs.indiana.edu>
Subject: Wild Hops

As a recent mover to Indiana, I dutifully re-established my brewery,
planted new hop vines--cascade and nugget--both of which are doing
fine, thank you, and I should harvest in a few weeks. While exploring
my new digs, I discovered what appeared to be wild hops behind the flower
beds. Always interested in wild things--except wild yeasts-- I trained them up 
and over a trellis. They are now florishing and are quite long and busy.
But, in contrast to my less than year old cascade, they do not appear to
be flowering at all. What do I have here? Are they really hops? The
vines are called wild cucumbers in these parts, but have all the 
markings of hops--fuzzy vines, etc. I tried matching the leaves with the
examples in the Hops special issue of Zymurgy, but no match. Could this
be the basic first year syndrome, and it mightnot be until next year that they
bear fruit? If they do bear fruit in the future, is there any way to test 
for AA content without devoting an entire 5 gallon batch to them?
TIA.
tk

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 10:04:09 EDT
From: sims at pdesds1.scra.org (Jim Sims)
Subject: Wyeast question

 (actaully two questions)

 My wife purchased some Wyeast liquid yeast for the next coupla
 batches of brew. I had read about possible infection of the nutrient
 packs here, so I figured I play it safe and re-hydrate (what do you
 call it since it's already liquid?) it myself. The date on the 'bag'
 said July 1993 - it that the 'manufacture' date, or the 'use-by'
 date?

 I added the 'bag' of yeast to about a cup of slightly dilluted and
 still warm (~80 degrees) wort while the rest was boiling. I've used
 this method inthe past with dry yeast and by the time the wort cools,
 the yeast has a head that's bulging out of the 2 cup container it's
 in. This time, the yeast wasn't doing *anything*, just had a sediment
 on the bottom of the cup. I pitched in into the cooled wort anyway,
 not having much choice. This morning (brewed last nite about 9,
 pitched about 11 PM), theres still no head on the fermenetr.

 Should I wait till this evening and if there's still no head
 re-hydrate and pitch some other yeast?

jim

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Date:           Mon, 2 Aug 93 10:30 EDT
From: Gerald_Wirtz at vos.stratus.com
Subject:        Brew Pubs in East Detroit.

     Anyone know of any Brew Pubs in the East Detroit area?

     Thanks - e-mail replys appreciated

     Gerald_Wirtz

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 07:54:40 -0700
From: pascal at netcom.com (Richard Childers)
Subject: The Advertising Channel


"Date: Fri, 30 Jul 1993 13:25:34 +0930
 From: Murray Robinson <robinm at mrd.dsto.gov.au>
 Subject: Possible solution to commercial posts ?

"After reading the discussions about whether or not commercial
 posts should be allowed on the Homebrew Digest I checked up on
 an automatic mailer package that may hold one solution to the
 problem."


Look, folks. Let's go through this again.

Home Brew Digest. Note the word 'home'. This is not a channel for free
advertising or would-be get-rich-quick schemes for capitalists lacking
the capital to pay for their advertising, or trying to capitalize on
a free alternative to shelling out their own bucks.

To attempt to distort it into something it is not is to create trouble.
I, personally, will not accept advertising on the Home Brew Digest -
ever.

If you want to start a Commercial Brew Digest, go ahead. But keep your
! at #$ing commercials off of my screen. The Internet is based on the model
of a commonwealth, not on the model of a bunch of cheap-o parasites who
can't pay for their own advertising and have to piggyback on freebies.

The same goes for long and windy lists of who won what where at some
contest over a thousand miles from where I am ... or postings eliciting
entries. Use yer brainz. Post that entries are open and invite people
to mail you for the entry form, instead of posting the entry form to
the entire goddamned planet. If you're too lazy to do this, then move
over and get someone else to do it. Simple etiquette, nothing complex,
just good manners.

No, that wasn't a flame. Just the facts, ladies and gentlemen.


- -- richard

 |                                                                            |
 |        "A cloak is no longer a cloak if it does not keep one warm."        |
 |                                                                            |
 | richard childers                                         pascal at netcom.com |

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 08:41:58 -0700 (PDT)
From: Paul dArmond <paulf at henson.cc.wwu.edu>
Subject: The FaceMail Project

I'm just back from Portland.  It was a real mind-bender to meet people
from th digest face-to-face.  I was constantly reevaluating my mental
images of peoples personalities.  I'll have more to say about the
conference later, but first...........

         THE FACEMAIL PROJECT

At my booth I set up an S-VHS camera and passed the word that I would be
videotaping any electronic brewer.  I asked people to hold to 3-5 seconds
of time, just enough to say their name and mug for the camera a little.  I
will be editing the tape into short clips and converting them into
motion-video files, QuickTime for Mac tribesmen and standalone DOS files
for the "rest of us".  The DOS files will probably be converted first.

I will then upload these files (they'll be pretty big) to the archive at
sierra.stanford.edu.  Then you'll be able to download the file and
actually see (and on some systems hear) what various elctronic brewers
look like.

This is an experiment, so we'll see how it goes.  It was remarkably
difficult to pass the word at the conference, so I'll apologize right now
for missing anybody.  If this works out, next year can be better organized...

Paul.


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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 12:08:04 EDT
From: mberger at wellfleet.com (Michael Berger)
Subject: Where to drink in...

I've been noticing many requests for information on where to drink in...

It may be time to put together a list of good drinking spots in the USA
with comments/reviews from HBD readers.  With all the new brewpubs and
extended selection bars popping up, it can be difficult to discern good
ones from bad ones, hence the inclusion of comments.

As a beer-loving frequent traveller, I'd find such a list helpful.
Any volunteers?

Cheers, mab


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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 09:41:50 PDT
From: Don_Doyle at Novell.COM (Don Doyle)
Subject: Decoction mashing


I was wondering if many people use decoction mashing and what the
pro's/con's to it are. I have Noonan's book and he swears by decoction
for lager's however can one do an ale this way. I have a little voice
in my head saying "No" because you will impart unwanted flavors i.e.
astringency into the beer, but want feedback on this mashing procedure.

Thanks in advance,

Don Doyle
dond at novell.com

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 12:56:55 EDT
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Counterflow Questions

I am thinking about turning my immersion chiller into a counterflow
chiller and have a couple of operational questions:

  1. Some have mentioned that they sanitize their counterflow chillers
     by running boiling water through them.  How do you get the boiling
     water in the chiller without scalding yourself?

     For those who use chemical means, I generally use bleach to
     sanitize.  What do you use on a counterflow chiller and how long to
     you let it soak or do you just run the solution through?  What
     concentration do you use?  (I apologize if this sounds like a
     re-opening of the recent sanitation thread.)

  2. Similar to the above, How do you get it started?  I am assuming
     that I will need to siphon the hot wort through the chiller to the
     primary fermenter.

Thanks in advance.
- --
Jim Grady              |"Root beer burps don't have to be said 'Excuse me'."
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com |                Robert Grady, age 4.75

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 13:10:07 EDT
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: KiWheat recipe

I recently made a KiWheat beer (Kiwifruit Wheat beer) and I thought I
would share the recipe:

                KiWheat Ale
                -----------

6# William's Weizenmalt Extract (60% wheat, 40% barley)
1.5 oz Hallertauer hops (2.9% alpha acid) - 60 min
1   oz Hallertauer hops - 5 min
0.5 tsp Irish Moss

Wyeast Belgian Ale yeast

O.G. 1.041

Fermented at ~70^F.

After 5 days, I peeled and diced about 7# of kiwifruit, added 2 campden
tablets, and put them in the freezer overnight to help breakdown the
cell walls.

The next day, racked to secondary and added the kiwifruit (brought up to
room temperature.

After 1 week, when the secondary fermentation was complete, I bottled;
F.G. 1.009

Results:
  I had intended to add more hops but miscalculated (and I didn't
  even have a homebrew while I was making it!).  It is a rather light
  beer with a slight kiwi nose.  As you drink it, it has a tartness that
  helps take the place of added hop bitterness.  It does not hold a head
  worth beans.

  If I make this again, I think I will add a few more hops and leave it
  on the kiwis MUCH longer.  I think that after I bottled I saw on the
  digest that krieks are left on the cherries for 2-4 months.  I guess I
  was a little too hasty to have my summer brew before the summer was
  over! 

- --
Jim Grady              |"Root beer burps don't have to be said 'Excuse me'."
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com |                Robert Grady, age 4.75

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 12:22 CDT
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Dough-in

 
 >rom: "William A Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
 >Subject: Overnight mashing
 
 >In HBD #1193 Jack Schmidling mentions doing the mash-in the night
 before the rest of the mash.  According to Jack, the overnight mash-in
 "had far more malty flavor and seemed richer and fuller in body" than
 the same recipe using a normal mash-in.
    
 >Very interesting experience!  I could certainly go for mashing-in the
 night before.  Have others tried this?  With what sucess?  Jack, what
 temperature do you mash in at and how does it change overnight?
 
 I boil my mash water and either chill it or let it cool naturally, depending 
 on the time but in either case it is near room temp or cooler when I dough-in 
 and IS room temp by morning.
 
 There is no doubt a multicultural flora ready to do a number on the mash but 
 if it is kept cool and kept to a reasonable length of time, it will cause no 
 grief.  Mashing and boiling will destroy its viability.  If allowed to get 
 established however, it could impart an off flavor even if the  organisms 
 that started it are long gone.
 
 It has been my experience that the aroma in the morning is clean and pleasant 
 and not significantly different from the night before.
 
 For what it is worth, however, in the experiments cited in the original 
 article, the mashes made with 6-row developed a putrid aroma by morning and 
 the controls using Belgian Munich did not.
 
 This could also be a clue that the six-row malt I have is rancid or mouldy 
 and the whole experiment is for naught.
 
 I would appreciate hearing from anyone else with comments on six row malt and 
 in particular, whoever it was that made the comments about the flavor of this 
 type of malt.
 
 js

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Date:  2 Aug 1993  14:29 EDT
From: dab at cc.bellcore.com (dave ballard)
Subject: nj brewpubs finally legal


hey now-  i would appreciate if you non-jersyites would stand up and offer
a small round of applause- on thursday, 7/29 (i think, it may have been 
friday) gov. jimbo slapped his autograph on the paper that legalized 
brewpubs in new jersey.  

i can see it now- in about five years people will be sitting at bars all 
over saying, "hey, didn't there used to be brewpubs in california and 
colorado?  nahhhh.  must be my imagination.  gimme another piscataway 
pilsner..."

;-)
dab




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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 12:05:25 -0700
From: khenneus at trumpet.calpoly.edu
Subject: Cider Recipes

Hello to all of you out in brew land,
     I've been interested in brewing for about six monthes now 
and have made a few batches with one of my friends.	
    With the excellent apple growing weather we have had in 
California I've been looking into doing a batch of Cider from the
apples I have in a small orchard and this great old cider press
that my grandfather had.  What I would like to get hold of is any 
good cider recipes out there.  Spiced or unspiced.
     Sorry this is not a true brewing question but I figured this 
would be the best source for info.  Cook books don't always have
things that taste good.

	Thanks For Your Time,	

- -------------------------------------------------
Kent Henneuse
Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo, CA
khenneus at trumpet.calpoly.edu
- -------------------------------------------------

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 12:07:53 MST
From: birkelan at adtaz.sps.mot.com (Joel Birkeland)
Subject: spigot in stainless kettle


I am toying with the idea of buying a large stainless kettle for
brewing purposes, and I would like to know what the consensus is
on the easiest way to put a spigot in it.  What I would like is a
1/2 inch ball valve or equivalent.  The kettle will probably be a
10 gallon Vollrath.

I know that a lot of you out there use a converted keg and weld a
fitting in the side.  Will this be a problem with the Vollrath
kettle, i.e. are the walls thick enough?

I would like to try something like my EASYMASHER (tm), but larger.
However, when I tell the guys at the plumbing store what I want
to do, they really don't know anything about it.  I would hate to buy
a straight pipe tap and die just to make one fitting.

I have seen bulkhead compression fittings advertised, but I can't find
a retail source.  A friend gave me a SWAGELOK (tm) bulkhead fitting,
but it is way too small (1/8 inch Cu tube).

I would prefer not to go the route of the modified keg, because I don't
want to buy a outdoor gas burner and boil outdoors in the Phoenix heat.
Can putting a spigot in a staionless pot really be that difficult?
Surely someone has done this before.

TIA,

- ---
Joel Birkeland
Motorola SPS
birkelan at adtaz.sps.mot.com

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 12:40:20 PDT
From: djb at suned1.Nswses.Navy.Mil (Dan J Barnard)
Subject: Going Blind


Dear Fellow Homebrewers,

I have an unusual request.  Recently my girlfriend went to child mediation
with her ex because he wants full physical custody of their two children
(7 and 9).  He claimed to the mediator that we let his children drink home-
brew (of course this is absolutely untrue) and that drinking homemade beer
can make you go BLIND!  (Her lawyer said `isn't that true about mastrubation
too?`)  Anyways, the mediator wanted to know if that was true or not.  I 
remember a few months back we had some posts on this issue and that the going
blind part was due to something else.  Anyhow, if someone knows the real
information about this issue, or where I can get the real article that talked
about this, or if you have any of these old posts, could you please email
them to me so I can get them to the mediator.  

                                           Thanks,
                                                   Dan


By the way this guy is such a dork that to get the kids he tried the excuse
that our house was so dirty that his wife wouldn't even use the bathroom and
that we even ran out of bathroom tissue once - for shame.

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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 93 14:59:00 PDT
From: "Raudins, Glenn D" <gdraudin at hsv10.pcmail.ingr.com>
Subject: Bay Area/Los Gatos


  I am moving from the Alabama Beer Wasteland to the Bay Area/Los Gatos, 
suggestions for brewing stores/groups would be appreciated.

Glenn Raudins
raudins at galt.b17d.ingr.com

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 07:40:26 CDT
From: nfarrell at ppco.com (Norman Farrell)
Subject: Toronto Star Article

Re: Wayde Nie's submission of July 12,1993 article from Toronto Star 
article on "beer machine".  In the 1970s (I believe), Phillips Petroleum
did some work with Coors on dehydrating beer.  The idea was to reduce
shipping costs with a minimal impact on the product.  Talking to some
of those involved, what I can reconstruct is this:

Fractional crystalization was used to remove water and create a "syrup".
Many panel evaluations were done and the consensus was that the re-
hydrated product was virtually as good as new.  There was a snag however.

Consumer surveys showed that even though people found no problems with the
beer, they would have turned their noses up at the label.  The product
would have to have been labeled "reconstituted beer".  I did not get to
taste any of the product myself.

I believe that Phillips and Coors still hold patents in this area.  I
wonder how the syrup for the Beer Machine is produced and how it is 
labeled.

What goes around comes back to haunt you.


Regards.
Norman Farrell(nfarrell at ppco.com)

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 14:37:56 PDT
From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
Subject: honey basil ale:  the sequel

I guess summer is the time for sequels, so I made another version
of the honey basil ale that I posted last year (and is in the Cat's
Meow I believe).  The last try (my fourth or fifth batch as a 
homebrewer) was too bitter and overpowering as far as the basil.

Since then I have learned about IBUs and how to calculate them, my
beers have become much more balanced and the bitterness more
consistent.  I learned what maltiness tastes like!

anyway, here's this years recipe:

                            Honey-Basil Ale II

3 lbs 2-row barley
2 lbs Munich malt
3 lbs honey  (I used raw, wild mesquite honey from Trader Joe's)
1/2 lb 10L crystal malt
1/2 oz basil  (fresh leaf basil from grocery store or farmer's market)

20 IBU Willamette hops
  Wyeast American Ale yeast

Standard mash and boil.  I added the basil and 3/4 oz hops at the 
end of the boil and turned off the heat.  Cooled with immersion 
chiller after 5 or 10 minutes.

OG:  82   I added 2.5 qts of water to bring it up to 5 gallons 
          with a gravity of 1.062
FG:  8 !!

The final gravity was lower than I had thought, even with the 
honey.  Actually, the OG was higher than I had thought also.  

Comments:
   The beer is great, not as thin as I feared, and complex.  There
is an alocohol note in the taste, as you might have guessed.  The
beer is smooth.  The bitterness is very slight, the maltiness is
good and the basil is subtle.  There is a slight basil nose.  It is very 
drinkable, which means all the alcohol will sneak up behind you and 
knock you over the head.  I was very happy with this version.

So for others who want to use herbs:  I think 1/2 oz of basil
in 5 gallons is fine.  A little more wouldn't be bad, but 1 ounce
is definately too much.  I used rosemary once, and it is a stronger
herb, so go lighter.  I would like to hear your experience with
vanilla beans:  I'm thinking of putting one in the fermenter with
a porter.  Is one enough?  

                                  - Bryan

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 17:34 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Back from Portland/Bud-quality[sic]/Dishwasher glassware

Hey!  Back from Portland to the flat land of limited varieties of good
beer on tap (Chicagoland).  First of all, I'd like to commend the Pacific
Northwesterners for having the good taste to support so many fine breweries.
My favorite two beers however are of very limited supply:

1. a 135IBU IPA brewed by Thom Thomlinson (which will, by the way, soon
be available commercially, albeit only in Thom's area -- CO, I believe), and

2. the conference beer, a Nut Brown Ale, made with Hazelnut extract (YUM!).

Other memorable beers were:

hand-pumped Bridgeport Blue Heron Pale Ale,
hand-pumped Pike Place Pale Ale,
hand-pumped Hale's Moss Bay Extra,
Red Hook Summer Rye,
Red Hook Blackhook Porter,
a blueberry ale (if someone knows who the brewery is -- please email),
Vermont Pub & Brewery (Greg Noonan's) Wee Heavy,
Steelhead IPA,
F. Boon Faro, Gueuze and Kriek (at the Belgian tasting -- thanks Mike!),
Cantillon Gueuze (also at the tasting),
Rogue Maier Bock,
Rogue Rogue'n'Berry
Pyramid Pale Ale,
Deshuttes Koelsch,
Squatter's Rocky Mountain Wheat,
Eugene City Brewing Red Tape Ale, and
Schmaltz Alt.

Okay, so not all are Pacific NW brews, but remember, there were beers
brought to the conference from all over the world, not to mention all
the beers at the Oregon Brewer's Festival.

A final point on the Pacific Northwest brews: they were not as hoppy as
I had expected.  This stems from comments by Pacific Northwesterners
after the Milwaukee Conference, that the Midwestern beers are all underhopped.
Well, maybe I agree that the Midwestern beers ARE underhopped, but then, we
should also agree that many PNW beers are underhopped too.

Before a flame war erupts, indeed, the PNW brews are, in general hopper than
most MW beers, but from what I read here a year ago, I expected them to be
twice as hoppy.  On having a large variety of good beers, the PNW has the
MW beat by a mile.  I just hope it doesn't take 20 years for us to catch up!

************************************
Jack writes:

 It is not difficult at all to make lite colored beer if you dilute it with 
 enough water.   The most important adjunct to maintain "Bud quality" is corn 
 syrup.  This exotic ingredient produces as much alcohol as needed to 
 compensate for water dilution at the end and contributes no color.

To make Coors or Old Style or Henry's (yes, there are crap beers in the
PNW too) or Miller, you are correct -- they use corn as an adjunct.
Budweiser is made with rice as an adjunct and I don't think it's that hard
to duplicate.  Brew up a 1044 beer using 2# of rice syrup in place of some
of the lager malt.  Hop it to about 14 IBU using Tettnangers (not that hop
variety really makes that much difference at such low rates) and ferment
it at 50F using Wyeast Pilsen yeast (why it's called Pilsen yeast, I don't
know -- it's from St. Louis).  I tasted a beer made using these guidelines
about two years ago -- it was made from Alexander's Extract, I believe, and
was a dead ringer (in flavor) for Bud.  Filtering would make it even more
authentic as it would lower the body and head retention to be more in line
with Bud.

********************************
I've had luck with getting beer-clean glassware directly from the dishwasher
by using a detergent that did not have a sheeting agent and making sure
that there was none of that liquid sheeting agent in the little reservoir
that's in the dishwasher.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 02 Aug 1993 19:23:05 -0400 (EDT)
From: SMUCKER at UTKVX.UTCC.UTK.EDU
Subject: ULTRA LONG MASHES

Like "William A Kitch"  in HBD 1194    I an interested in the 
potential, problems and effects of a mash that extends 
beyond the conventional 2 hour time frame.

I am aware that some homebrewers have in fact done this by 
what they have called an oven mash.  The way I understand 
this is that they bring their mash up to the desired 
temperature and then place the mash pot in the oven with the 
oven temperature at 140 to 150 F and leave until the next 
morning.

I am interested in the effects of doing this but in my case 
with a 15.5 gallon keg for a mash pot I don't have an oven big 
enough for it to go into.

I insulate may keg after bring it to mash temperature and 
typically get about 1 degree C or 1.8 degree F temperature 
drop per hour.  My mash would for example drop from 152 F to 
about 138 F in 8 hours.

What would be the expected effects of a 6 to 8 hour mash vs. 
the typical 2 hours?  At what temperature do you have the 
potential for a sour mash effect/problem? -- Something I 
don't want for most of my beer.  Do you leach tannins at a low 
level at mash temperature such that the 8 hours mash will 
have the potential for astringency? -- It is well accepted 
that you leach tannins above 168 degrees F.

Thanks in advance for your answers.

Dave Smucker,     Brewing beer -- not making jelly!

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 93 17:17:20 PDT
From: rcristad at weber.ucsd.edu (Riccardo Cristadoro)
Subject: Re: please cancel my subscription

please cancel my subscription

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Date: Mon, 2 Aug 1993 20:47:08 -0800
From: mfetzer%ucsd.edu at chem.UCSD.EDU (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)
Subject: Celis

Ok ok... I'm getting a lot of mail from friendly folks pointing out my
mistakes with Celis beers.

First, let me state I'm quite aware of what wit is supposed to be/taste
like. Unfortunately, when I tasted Celis white, I tasted a Bavarian. Having
no idea that Celis is a Belgian, I found nothing wrong with that. Honest.
It tasted more 'weizen' to me than 'wit.' Until I get to try another I'll
have to stick with that. No sourness, orange, or coriander came to mind!

As for Grand Cru, I guess I mistakenly assumed Grand Cru is a style, which
it's not. I compared it to the only other Grand Cru I know, Rodenbach, and
the two are clearly not similar. There is a lambic-ish sourness, and I
assumed all Grand Cru's are 'zuur' beers, which sometimes have lambics
mixed in as far as I know. Someone has suggested that Celis' GC is actually
a Trippel. I don't really know enough about these styles to say, but I
guess I proved what happens when you ass-u-me once again. :)

Thanks to all the folks sending me corrections and/or info. I'd love to
learn more about these styles, so keep it coming. 

One thing I will not back off on: Celis' beers are damned good, no matter
what they're supposed to emulate, or be called.


Mike


- --
Michael Fetzer                         pgp 2.2 key available on request
Internet:      mfetzer at ucsd.edu        uucp:    ...!ucsd!mfetzer
Bitnet:        FETZERM at SDSC            
HEPnet/SPAN:   SDSC::FETZERM           or       27.1::FETZERM


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1195, 08/03/93