FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Re: counter pressure filler (was Kegging systems) (mcdcup!tellabs.com!don)
  Yeast viability ("Bob Jones")
  beer nuts? (Paul Selkirk)
  My UK trip ("Bob Jones")
  hot priming (Carl Howes)
  Clean it up (lyons)
  Honey instead of sugar. (Davin Slade)
  Re: hot priming (Lynn Kerby)
   (ESPINOS0)
  Slant/plate recipes (Norman Farrell)
  Beer drinks Belgian style ("Phillip Seitz")
  Beer hunting in Belgium, Part 1: Rochefort ("Phillip Seitz")
  Re: yeast pitching/filters/names (Jim Busch)
  Beer in the appropriate container thread... (EZIMMERM)
  Aluminum for sparge water heating? (Jane M Slipp)
  Re: Beer Drinks (Matt F. Cary)
  beer drinks ("Jeff M. Michalski, MD")
  hot priming solution (Ted Manahan)
  Hot Priming/Keg Request (DJM1)
  beer dinks & drinks (David Atkins)
  regional brewing publications (Kip Damrow)
  Distillation and the home-brewer ("John C. Post")
  Carbonation and Filtration (David Pike)
  lemon beer/yeast nutrient ("Daniel F McConnell")
  Re: beer drinks (Kyle Hammon)
  beer drinks: velvet hammer (Paul Boor)
  Kegging FAQ delayed slightly (Dion Hollenbeck)
  mashout (chris campanelli)
  barleywine yeast ("Jeff M. Michalski, MD")
  lauter tun designs/amylase/Belgian yeasts (korz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 12:57:23 CDT
From: hplabs!mcdcup!tellabs.com!don
Subject: Re: counter pressure filler (was Kegging systems)

>
>I got a counter pressure filler from Benjamine Machine Products that
>seems to work well.  I posted the same question to the net, also asking
>for comments on the Foxx CPF.  The general consensus was that the Foxx
>product was not well made, and that the BMP CPF was a good buy.  I got
>one, used it, and had a problem with it leaking when the liquid valve
>was closed.  Made for quite a mess until I got the process down.  I called
>BMP and asked about it, and the guy said it was unusual, but not unheard
>of, to have a problem with the valve seat.  He said to take it off, send
>it back, and if there was a problem with it he would replace it.  When I
>went to take it off I found that it was loose to start with.  I'm thinking
>that this may have caused the problem, but I won't have a chance to check
>it out until next week.  BTW, the BMP CPF was supposedly designed by
>Micah Millspaw who, if you are a long time reader of the HBD, you recognize
>his name.  If you don't, he was the source of some very good information and
>is now the head brewer at some place in California (I think)
Thanks for the mini-review.

>
>BMP has ads in most (including the latest) issues of Zymurgy.  If you
>don't have access to it, let me know and I'll dig it up for you.  Price
>was about $55 with shipping.
I don't have a sub. to Zymurgy but I do receive Brewing Techniques. I'll 
check that tonight although the name does'ent sound familiar at all.
If you have the address or someone else has it, could you please email 
it to me??? Actually it may be worth posting since others may also be 
interested.

>
>BTW Don, I tried to email directly to you, but my mailer daemon doesn't
>recognize all those !'s in your address.  If you have an address that is
>in internet format you might add it to your signature.
Normally the short version is included in my .signature file but I have
not found a way to include it in my posts to HBD. I will try to put this
in manually until I figure a better way to do this. Sorry about that...

don
don at tellabs.com




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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 13:02:46 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Bob Jones" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
Subject: Yeast viability

I'm interested in obtaining info on yeast viability. Given a freshly grown
up yeast population, what does the viability curve look like vs time? What
does the curve look like? Does the viability start to drop right after
flocculation? I'm sure there are a lot of factors that effect the viability
like temp. etc. I would be interested in any info. out there.

Thanks,

Bob Jones

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 16:10:22 -0400
From: paul at ftp.com (Paul Selkirk)
Subject: beer nuts?

The other day, while roasting some hickory nuts from my neighbor's
tree, I got to wondering if anyone ever brewed with nuts.

Would you mash the nuts (lots of starch in there), or "dry-nut" a
more conventional beer?

What kind of nuts would be good?  The walnut/pecan/hickory family all
taste like they've got a lot of tannins, so they might not be
appropriate.  Maybe almonds, filberts, brazil nuts... (I can see it
now - Rainforest Crunch Beer!)

I've been reading the HBD since the beginning of the year, plus most
of last year's back issues, and I've seen some...unusual...ideas, but
I don't recall anything of this sort.  What say ye?

				paul


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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 1993 13:24:34 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Bob Jones" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
Subject: My UK trip

Well I'm back from 3 weeks of pub hoppin in England, Wales and Scotland. I
got to tour 4 brewerys, Young's, Sam Smith's, Calandonion and Traquir House
(it was under reconstruction). The brewerys were all very nice and seemed to
bend the rules more than a bit when I mentioned I was a brewer from the
states. I came back with 4 yeast samples and am looking forward to brewing
some real ales. A few thoughts on things I was surprised about in the UK.

* I expected cellar temp beer and low carbonation. The real ales are cellar
temp (55 deg f) and DEAD flat. The ales may have a head if pulled via a
sparkler on the beer engines.

* All the beers were extremely small gravity compared to our beers here in
the states.

* Your average pub goer will consume 8-10 or more pints a night. They expect
to drink to a glow and keep the glow, not pass out from alcohol.

* All the beers seemed much more subtle than I expected. There was malt and
hops, but with the zero gas levels, they seemed much smaller than our ales
here in the states.

* An Imperial pint was about $2.25.

* The Brits are very fussy about both clarity and a good pour. The fill
damn well better be to the top and they don't want any haze. All the beers
were extremely clear. I expected some floaters, I say NONE.

* I really got use to the no gas, small gravity, cellar temp beers. I could
drink 3-4 pints and was ready for more. We all make such a big deal out of
carbonation in our finished product and would probably throw out a batch
that had a gravity of 1038. Well relax! I'm looking forward to brewing a
real ale (I won't however vent to the atmosphere). I will keep the gravity
very low, the flavor up and serve it cool.

* On a negative note, smoking is not declining in the pub scene. It was a
real challenge to find a corner where I could smell something other than
cigarette smoke.

* I attended a beer festival in Bedford that had 53 real ales on. The beers
were in the center of the room on a scafolding made of steel pipes and wood
planks. The kegs had a piece of muslin cloth that was damp over them and a
fan was blowing across them. How's that for room temp? The kegs all just
gravity drained into the tasters mug. Quit a difference from our tasting,
eh?

Just a few thoughts, hope you enjoyed them. I sure did enjoy experiencing
them.

Bob Jones

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 16:07:30 EDT
From: sdlsb.dnet!73410%sdlcc at swlvx2.msd.ray.com (Carl Howes)
Subject: hot priming

Bart writes in HBD1249:

>When I prime my fermented beer with corn sugar, I usually cool the
>priming solution to 70F with an ice bath before mixing with the beer.
>[snip]  
>I've always thought that this step is probably not necessary...
>[snip]

I just sampled a bottle of my latest batch (a porter) last night and
could detect no ill effects from using the primer while hot (~150F) due to
a lack of patience while cooling it.  A bit of off flavor from poor bottle
rinsing, but that's another story (my wife also had one - no off flavor).

>Brewing equipment destroyed while typing this message : 0

Congratulations on your conservation of brewing equipment!! ;-)

Carl



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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 16:06:09 EDT
From: lyons%adc1 at swlvx2.msd.ray.com
Subject: Clean it up

>		" I have found that it is much easier to fake an
>		  orgasm than to pretend to like basketball. "

I'm not clear if this implies that someone has a problem with 
basketball or with finding the right man?  It may have appeared
cute the first time it was posted, but please keep in mind that 
this type of material has little to do with the subject of beer 
and is offensive to some folk.  I have also been guilty of making
crude remarks, but have learned that a public forum is not proper
place.  Please clean it up.

Chris

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 11:27:35 GMT+1100
From: Davin Slade <10692851 at eng2.eng.monash.edu.au>
Subject: Honey instead of sugar.

Is it possible to use honey instead of cane sugar or dextrose.
If so how much honey is equivalent to 1 kg of sugar.

What is a good beer to use honey in.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Davin Slade, 4th Year Civil Engineering, Monash Uni, Oz
10692851 at eng2.eng.monash.edu.au or
baldrick at yoyo.cc.monash.edu.au
- ------------------------------------------------------------
"It was georgiousness and georgosity in the flesh"
Alexander de Large, A Clockwork Orange
Anthony Burgess, 1966, Stanley Kubrik, 1971
- ------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 23:30 PDT
From: lfk at veritas.com (Lynn Kerby)
Subject: Re: hot priming


>I've always thought that this step is probably not necessary since the
>thermal mass of 1 pint of 200F sugar water is nothing compared with 5
>gallons  at  70F.  So what if I zap a few yeast cells on the initial contact ?
>They don't have very good lawyers anyway.
>
>I've never had the guts to actually risk a batch with this hot combination
>experiment.  Has anyone else done this successfully ?  I'd like to
>simplify my process.

Be bold, fry the little buggers!

I don't bottle much anymore (kegs are great), but I got tired of
waiting for the priming solutions to cool back when I did bottle.  I
tried an experiment where the priming solution was well over 100F and
it worked fine.  Next batch it went in nearly boiling and guess what,
no carbonation whatsoever.  Fooled you!  It worked fine, as you have
guessed, the thermal mass of 1 cup of boiling sugar solution has very
little effect on the thermal mass of 5 gallons of beer.  Your mileage
may vary, but if I ever have a need to bottle an entire batch, I
certainly wouldn't worry about killing the first few 100 million yeast
cells.

>Brewing equipment destroyed while typing this message : 0

How *does* he do it? :-)

Lynn Kerby
lfk at veritas.com

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Date:     19 Oct 1993 8:55:22 EST
From: ESPINOS0 at ksg1.harvard.edu
Subject:  


Please sign me off: Manolo Espinosa

espinos0 at ksg1.harvard.edu

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 07:54:05 CDT
From: nfarrell at ppco.com (Norman Farrell)
Subject: Slant/plate recipes

Okay, all you yeast bankers out there in HDB land, a fellow club member
without HBD access has asked me to pose a question on making slants and
plates for yeast culturing at home.  Tim would like to know what recipe
is used by the Brewers Resource people for their slants (how 'bout it
Dr. Raines)???  Failing that, he would settle for reccomendations from
other successful yeast bankers.  If this is covered in a FAQ, please let
me know and I will gladly fetch it.

Tim thanks you and I thank you, we all thank you.  Private email is okay.

BTW I took 6 pages of notes from George Fix's talk at the Dixie Cup last
weekend.  I am writing them up in the form of a summary for a club newsletter
and would gladly post them if there was interest (and if George Fix doesn't
send me email telling me that I better not).  The topic was the use of fining 
agents and is supposed to be included in his new book.  Any interest?

Regards,
Norman (nfarrell at ppco.com)

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 08:53:06 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Beer drinks Belgian style

Enough with these wimpy British beer drinks.  My friend Olivier DeCamp 
(who should have posted this himself) reports enjoying a nice Chimay 
Flambee on cool evenings in Belgium.  This consists of Chimay mixed 
with high octane whiskey, set aflame.  (Did I get that right, Oli?)  
Presumably you wait for the flames to die out before drinking, but the 
heat they generate warms the drink nicely.  
	Sounds to me like you hug bowl for a while afterward, too.

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 09:07:48 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Beer hunting in Belgium, Part 1: Rochefort

Beer Hunting in Belgium: Part 1 of 7

Rochefort (Abbaye de Notre Dame de St. Remy) 
      (by Jim Busch: BUSCH at DAACDEV1.STX.COM)

      Through an amazing stroke of luck and Phil Seitz's wealth of
connections in Belgium circles, we were able to arrange a tour of
this monastery.  It turns out that one of Phil's friends is the
son of the man who assesses brewing taxes for the Rochfort
region, and as a special favor to his father--who is
retiring--the monks allowed our friend to bring several guests
for a very rare look inside the monastery.
      Rochefort is located a modest drive south from Namur.  The
sign next to the door of the abbey reads "No Visitors."  We
knocked and were greeted by a classic brother of the order,
dressed in the traditional robes, sandals and cane, and hunched
over with the burden of his years.  We were led to a spartan
reception/waiting area where the silence of the monastery began
to hang on us.  A short while later, head brewer Brother Antoine
greeted us and we followed him to the brewery.  
      The brewery occupies a corner of the monastery, in a tall
room roughly 20 meters long.  Two sparkling traditional copper
"onion dome" kettles were situated on the lower area, while
another traditional copper lauter tun was situated on the far end
of the room on a platform 2 meters above the main floor.  The
area was illuminated by tall stained glass windows, some of which
sported hanging ivy plants.  A large cross was on one wall.  The
traditional copper grant was embedded into the tiled platform
wall, and the brewer still manually operates the grant handles to
equalize the runoff rate from the lauter tun. 
      Inside the vessels were a slew of mechanical devices; the
normal rakes and sparge arms in the lauter tun, but lots of
probes and gadgets in the kettle.  The second kettle was
originally used to produce a table beer--a very normal practice
at breweries that make high gravity beers, but a practice that is
becoming less common.  It is no longer used except to heat water
(talk about wasted equipment!).  When lautering, all the original
mash water is allowed to drain from the mash, then additional
water is added.  The table beer, when it was made, came from
later runnings off the mash.
      Three beers are produced at the monastery, and are named for
their strength in Belgian degrees: 6 (7.5%  ABV); 8 (9.2%  ABV);
and 10 (11.3% ABV).  We were also told that all three beers
originate from identical mash bills (that is, the exact same mix
and amount of malt), the difference being in the quantity of
candi sugar added to the kettle.  The mash bill consists of
CaraVienna and Pils malts, with maize being added as an adjunct. 
Ground coriander is added to the kettle in addition to pulverized
whole hops, Styrian Goldings for kettle hops, Hersbruker
Hallertau for finish.  This is the first brewery I have ever been
to that goes to the trouble of using whole noble hops and then
pulverizes them prior to addition to the kettle. This is done to
ease the centrifuging of the cast out wort. The original
gravities of the three beers are: 17P, 20P and 25P.  
      The cast out wort is passed through the SS centrifuge, then
a plate heat exchanger, and then is dosed with a two-strain yeast
from a small cylindro-conical yeast tank.  The fermentation is
done in what appears to be a tiled open fermenter that was
modified by the addition of a closed SS top.  The top looked to
be quite involved, with piping and controls everywhere.  The two
fermenters occupied a relatively small room.
      After primary fermentation, the beer is filtered using a
Diatomatous Earth filter (DE or Kieselgur filter) and then racked
into maturation tanks.  A brief conditioning period is followed
by the addition of priming sugar and three days later bottling is
done.  The bottles are steam cleaned and sterilized before being
filled in a very large Krones bottling line.  Every piece of 
equipment in this brewery was of high quality, well engineered
and of greater capacity than what appeared to be required.  These
monks certainly built it right. 
      Rochefort beers are some of the harder-to-find Trappist
beers even in Belgium, and the monastery purposefully perpetuates
this.  The brewing schedule is always the same.  They only brew 3
days a week.  The brewing schedule varies little; 2
weeks of Rochefort 8 (6 days), and 1 week of Rochefort 10 (3
days).  A week of Rochfort 6 (3 days) is thrown in from time to
time.  It is no wonder that the '8' is the most prevalent beer of
the three.  It was the '8' that Brother Antoine opened for us in
his study.  As Michael Jackson has noted, the study is a special
place, adorned by literally hundreds of beer steins from
brewmasters that have visited, many from great breweries in
Germany. Brother Antoine himself is a bit special in that he
seemed genuinely amicable to us and did not typify the Trappist
stereotype monk.  He dressed quite plain and normal, not in the
robes of his other monks. There was even a plastic Jesus with
flickering light on a shelf.  
      The beer was fantastic.  The really remarkable thing about
all of the Rochefort beers is the art of creating a significant
amount of alcohol but keeping the flavor perceptions several
percent lower than the actual alcohol.  This is not an easy feat.
      Brother Antoine is one of 24 monks that live in the spacious
monastery. Economically, sales of the beer support the monastery
and its projects.  Even at three days a week of brewing, the
monastery is making boatloads of money.  Brother Antoine proudly
told us of the newly renovated Chapel and we stopped there after
our Rochefort 8's were consumed.  The high cathedral ceiling and
walls are made from the stone blocks of old farmhouses in the
Loire Valley, and the high narrow windows are filled not with
glass but with thin slabs of alabaster.  The pews were being hand
made and carved by local craftsmen as we were there, and the
column capitals had also been elaborately carved.  The floor of
the entrance area is adorned with a very large circular marble
inlay.  The marble was cut into arcs and inlaid and polished. 
All of this was being paid for by the brewery. 
      Since it was the end of a work day, the workers were
relaxing with a case of Rochefort 8!  It was quite a sight.  
      According to Brother Antoine, the other Trappist breweries
have broader financial responsibilities.  In addition to
supporting itself, Chimay also pays the expenses for four other
monasteries or convents, and Brother Antoine believes Chimay
began brewing years ago to provide jobs and economic development
to the people in its region.  This puts their high production
into context.  


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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 10:51:09 -0500 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: yeast pitching/filters/names

> Date: Fri, 15 Oct 93 15:52:38 EDT"
> From: Gary S. Kuyat <gsk at sagan.bellcore.com>
> Subject: 5/2/.5 micron filters
> Full-Name: Gary S. Kuyat
> 
> 5 micron:
>  Takes out big chunks, like hop particles. No effect in flavor, no effect in
> body, no effect in chill haze. Other than as a pre-filter 5 mic. seems pretty
> useless.
> 
> 2 micron:
>  This seems to be the best all around. Removes yeast. Some very slight loss of
> body. Clears and "crispens" beer taste. Almost have to say "why wouldn't you
> run all your beer through this?" (that is if you're kegging!) Don't try 
 .5 ucronm...
>  Removes yeast, some body and if your beer is very cold when you filter, this
> removes chill haze!  Kinda leaves your beer with a "thin" mouth feel. If you
> ------------------------------

What kind of filters are you using, what is thier efficiency rating and what 
are they manufactured from?  All of these factors will effect filtering.  Also,
how fast (psi) so you push the beer from keg to keg, and do you condition it 
prior to filtering?

> ------------------------------
> Date: Sun, 17 Oct 1993 09:51:35 -0700 (PDT)
> From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
> Subject: Yeast nutrients

> same conditions then assayed them for total cell counts.  The YNB starter
> had a cell density 10 times (!) of the other.  The numbers worked out to 
> 10 x 10**10 cells/liter.  I seem to remember an optimal pitch for 5 gallons
> is 4 x 10**10 cells so using YNB you could pitch with a pint and get an
> optimal cell count.  

Usually, cell counts are expressed in cells/ml, so the above numbers look more
impressive than they actually are.  4 million cells/ml is underpitching, even 
for ales, although not by much (many UK ale brewers pitch between 5-10 millon
cells/ml).  For lagers, it is 1 million cells/ml/degree plato. So for a 12P
lager, pitch 12 million cells/ml.  For a 17P lager, use at least 17 million
cells/ml, and as it goes even higher, up the density.  The 10 million/ml is a
good pitching rate for most regular beers.  If you have access to thick slurry,
pitch 1 lb per BBL of wort.
> ------------------------------
> Date: Mon, 18 Oct 93 09:15:49 -0400
> From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
> Subject: Beer hunting in Belgium: Introduction
> 
> on beer and brewing in Belgium, based primarily on research
> conducted by Jim Bush and myself during a visit this past summer.
		   ^^^^^^ Who is this guy ???:-)


Good brewing,
Jim Busch

DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 08:50:17 -0600 (MDT)
From: EZIMMERM at UWYO.EDU
Subject: Beer in the appropriate container thread...

Salutations!
   When reading that little thread on the 'right' contianer for each beer
I realized we had neglected 'lawnmower beer' and thought it should be
suggested we use (yep, you guessed it) a YARD glass!

Gene in Laramie
p.s. please forgive the bad pun, but I couldn't resist this one...

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 10:51:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jane M Slipp <jmsst58+ at pitt.edu>
Subject: Aluminum for sparge water heating?


Is there any harm in using an aluminum pot to heat water to 168F
for sparging the mash in a lauter tun?

 -steve



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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 08:01:54 -0700
From: cary at nas.nasa.gov (Matt F. Cary)
Subject: Re: Beer Drinks

In HBD #1250, dspalme at mke.ab.com wrote:

>In Germany, people will mix a light-colored beer (insert Pilzen or Weiss
>here) and mix it with the equivalent of Sprite (tm) and call it a "Radler."

In Germany, they were making "radler"s before Sprite(tm) was available.
Every radler I ever had was beer and lemonade.  I believe that was the
original drink, which literally refers to bicyclists.  Perhaps
in need of a lighter drink than straight beer, they were among the first
to drink lots of them (what German would dilute their beer without
pressing need).  radler is probably now used to mean any beer/soft drink
combination.

OK, now here's a real beer drink for you.  I've heard this referred to 
as a Slip, Strip and Go Naked:

   1      12 oz can frozen lemonade emptied into a pitcher
  12oz    gin ( measure using the now empty lemonade can)
   3      12 oz beeers 

Mix it all together and you'll experience the name.
This is a summer drink and it's the only gin drink I ever remember(barely)
liking.

Matt Cary
cary at nas.nasa.gov


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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 10:36:31 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Michalski, MD" <michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu>
Subject: beer drinks

In France, they use beer as a mixer for a drink called "panache".
It consists of roughly equal parts of a white soda and beer.  
Occasionally, they will add a splash of grenadine to the glass, 
the name of this version escapes me.  
JEFF M. MICHALSKI
michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu


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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 09:13:36 -0700
From: Ted Manahan <tedm at hpcvcbp.cv.hp.com>
Subject: hot priming solution
Full-Name: Ted Manahan

A couple days ago, Bart Thielges asks:

> When I prime my fermented beer with corn sugar, I usually cool the priming
> solution to 70F with an ice bath before mixing with the beer.  

> I've always thought that this step is probably not necessary since ...

> I've never had the guts to actually risk a batch with this hot combination
> experiment.  Has anyone else done this successfully ?  

I do it every time. My technique is to boil 1 cup of water, then add
between 1/2 and 2/3 cup corn sugar, turn off the heat, and let it sit
until cool. 

Except, I never allow enough time to let it cool. 

What the heck, I just pour it through a sanitized (or at least rinsed)
kitchen funnel onto the beer while racking into the priming carboy. 

It works for me.

Ted Manahan
tedm at cv.hp.com
503/750-2856

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 09:18:43 PDT
From: DJM1%CRPTech%DCPP at cts27.comp.pge.com
Subject: Hot Priming/Keg Request

In HDB #1249 Bart asks:

)Subject: hot priming

)I've always thought that this step is probably not necessary since the
)thermal mass of 1 pint of 200F sugar water is nothing compared with 5
)gallons  at  70F.  So what if I zap a few yeast cells on the initial contact ?
)They don't have very good lawyers anyway.

)I've never had the guts to actually risk a batch with this hot combination
)experiment.  Has anyone else done this successfully ?  I'd like to
)simplify my process.

This is the way I've been doing priming since switching to kegs, I've never 
had any problem with carbonation.
**************
 
Does anyone out there on the HBD know where to obtain old (or new, for that 
matter) 15 gal kegs....Searches of local Recycling places are a no-go (yeah, 
I could actually buy some of that massed-produced swill and keep the keg for 
the deposit). TIA-----You can E-Mail me direct.

Dan

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 11:48 CDT
From: David Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: beer dinks & drinks

All the talk concerning Shandy's reminded me of the Snakebite--an English
concoction served at pubs--1 part lager to 1 part hardcider.  Gives you those
hangovers where it's difficult to force your eyes open the next day.
 
I've seen a recipe for a Bloody Mary-esque drink made with beer instead of
vodka.  A brunch drink.  The exact measures escape me.
 
Also, there's the eternal short & a pint (Irish Whiskey & Guiness)...either as a
boilermaker or drop the shot into the pint.  At the Great Taste of the Midwest,
Three Bells Brewery of Mich. provided an Irish whiskey infused stout in wooden
casks.  Hopefully that wasn't a once in my lifetime occurence.'Tis the season
& the Bushmill's is at the ready.
 
Happy mixing,
David

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 09:57:25 PDT
From: kdamrow at Thomas.COM (Kip Damrow)
Subject: regional brewing publications

Does anyone have phone numbers for regional brewing publications
in the mid-west and the east coast? (similar to Celebrator, on the west coast)
Thanks, Kip.

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 10:37:45 -0800
From: "John C. Post" <jpost@ llnl.gov>
Subject: Distillation and the home-brewer

Actually, as I remember way back a couple of years ago, there is a classic 
beer style (eis-bock?) that *requires* distillation. There was quite a brew-
ha-ha (sic!) as to whether is was legal to make this style or not, as it uses 
freeze-distillation (you freeze the fermented-out wort and remove the ice 
cake, which leaves the final product awaiting carbonation). Freeze 
distillation is technically probably illegal, but, in the spirit of this 
thread, probably not dangerous...



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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 10:50:47 -0700 (PDT)
From: davep at cirrus.com (David Pike)
Subject: Carbonation and Filtration


While reading the Fix'es Vienna book last night, I came across the sections
on filtration and carbonation, and I suddenly got confused as to which
order they should occur in.

	1. carbonate then filter
	2. or filter then carbonate

It seems some of the big boys filter and then pump into a conditioning tank
to carbonate, so this would be #2. Other breweries, Anchor for one, end 
secondary fermentation with the beer naturally carbonated, and filter
afterwards.

At home, it can be either method. Secondary ferment, then filter, then
carbonate in a keg, then bottle(or drink). Or it can be the other way around,
ie. from the secondary, to the keg for carbonation, then filtration, then
bottling.

Whats the HBD consensus, which method is used, and why?


Cheers!

Dave


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Date: 19 Oct 1993 13:57:40 U
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu>
Subject: lemon beer/yeast nutrient

Subject:  lemon beer/yeast nutrient


Hi All:

>In Germany, people will mix a light-colored beer (insert Pilzen or Weiss
here) and mix it with the equivalent of Sprite (tm) and call it a "Radler."
I believe it is done in a 50/50 ratio.  It is quite tasty on those hot,
summer days and every now and then I will consider doing the same with some
of the swill I see in my parent's 'fridge.  Good stuff!  I recommend it!
Be daring!  Give it a try!

I first became aware of such strange things when I was in Germany too, I 
tried it and hated it.  Later back home it occured to me that this might 
be a perfect thirst quencher after triathalons......It was!  Don't waste 
good beer on this.  The combination of lemon and beer is far better that 
other *replacement* crap like Gatoraid or Exceed (tm,tm).  Regular beer 
doesn't cut it-too much carbonation.  Besides, you can have a quart or 
so, experience the tremendous muscle relaxing effects and rehydrate 
without falling down. 

While I'm here, I'll bite on the yeast starter question....

from Domenick Venezia
>.............[edit]...................Chris grew the starters under the
same conditions then assayed them for total cell counts.  The YNB starter
had a cell density 10 times (!) of the other.  The numbers worked out to 
10 x 10**10 cells/liter.  I seem to remember an optimal pitch for 5 gallons
is 4 x 10**10 cells so using YNB you could pitch with a pint and get an
optimal cell count.

FWIW 10 x 10**10 cells/L isn't really that high.  These values are 
usually expressed in cells/mL and this translates to 10 x 10**7/mL or 
100 million cells/mL.  A typical normal fermentation may produce cell 
counts of 50 million cells/mL which is dependant on strain, O2 levels 
etc.  As far as pitching of  4 x 10**10 cells, you don't give a volume 
of pitching culture, so lets assume that you mean 1 L.  4 x 10**10 cells 
into 19 L (5 gal) will provide about 2 x 10**9 cells/L or 2 X 10**6 
cells/mL.  Optimal pitch rates are debatable, but I think it is agreed 
that this rate is low for ales (should be 5-10 x 10**6/mL) and extremly 
low for lagers (should be 10-15 x 10**6/mL), especially lagers STARTED 
at fermentation temperatures near 50F, (not pseudo-steam-start-'em-at-
70-and-cool-'em-to-50-lagers). Noonan recommends even higher rates for 
Scotch Ales and other strong beer in his new book. 

What kind of lag time did he get?  I'll bet it was on the order of 
10-12 hours, not bad, but greater than optimum.

DanMcC 




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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 11:20:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: Kyle Hammon <MHAGEMAN at OREGON.UOREGON.EDU>
Subject: Re: beer drinks

I have no idea of any history to the drink, but my wife (from the Montana
outback - Jordan Montana, pop. 350)  introduced me to beer and tomato juice.

No, it's not disgusting!  My own modification is Snappy Tom or V-8 with
Luisiana Hot Sauce plus the beer of your choice.  

As someone else suggested, this is best done with the beer you find in your
parents fridge... or with the stuff leftover from well-intentioned, but sadly
unevolved offerings at a pot-luck.

Kyle Hammon           "Just Drink It"
MHAGEMAN at OREGON.UOREGON.EDU



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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 1993 13:31:06 -0500 (CDT)
From: Paul Boor <PBOOR at BEACH.UTMB.EDU>
Subject: beer drinks: velvet hammer

In younger and wilder days we held lab parties that featured the "velvet
hammer", i.e. half guinness stout and half dry (cheap) champagne, in a punch
bowl with a chunk of dry ice in it, served with small paper cups.

Very delicious, much too powerful, and much too easy-going-down...

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 09:04:26 PDT
From: megatek!hollen at uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Kegging FAQ delayed slightly


Well, sorry to inform you all that the Kegging FAQ will be delayed a
couple of weeks.  The task of combing through back issues of HBD for
questions and answers is *much* larger than I had anticipated.  I am
about halfway through the articles and can only work on them a short
time each day.  I expect that by the time I am done and preliminary
reviews have been done by people whom I have asked to assist me with a
review process, it will be the end of November, instead of the end of
October as I have previously posted.  I am sorry for the delay, but I
have to work to support my newsfeed habit.

The good news is that the FAQ is not languishing, but making progress
daily.  I think it will be a very worthwhile endeavor, even though my
fingers are growing shorter with prolonged use on the keyboard.  B-}


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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 14:55 CDT
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: mashout

>  I understand you once had a MM but traded it for a Corona
>  because the grain kept coming out of the hopper when you turned
>  the crank.  The Corona has an arrow telling you how to turn the
>  crank and I can understand how No-Mashout-Types (NMT's) feel
>  more comfortable with it.
>
>  js
 
Well, that's partly true.  I did own a Maltmill but returned to my
old Corona.  Yes, I admit that I couldn't figure out which way the
crank turned.  That and the fact that once I figured out how to
operate the Maltmill, it really didn't do a good job of ringing-out
my wet laundry like I thought it would.
 
But we seem to be digressing from the original proposal that
mashouts are unnecessary.  What is called for in this debate are
cold, hard facts.  After all, this is HBD not late night cable tv.
 
In that vein I have summarized my last two year's worth of brewing
records.  What I found was that all grists were composed of Belgian
malts.  Small amounts of wheat were used but never more than 5%. 
For background: Corona grind, simple infusion mash, mash & sparge
ala picnic cooler, never a protein rest, never a mashout and rarely
a ph adjustment.
 
The bottom line remained unchanged: no stuck sparges and mashing
efficiencies over 80%.  Given the simplicity of the efficiency
measurement I think it's safe to say the numbers can be trusted.
 
Assuming that one is using a grist that does not have a high
percentage of wheat or rye, I remain confident that mashouts are a
waste of time.  But why take my word for it?  Why not give it a try
next time?
 
Over time, we incorporate new techniques into our brewing
methodology when convinced of the new technique's merit.  I'm
proposing the same action only in the opposite direction in that
techniques can be eliminated when deemed unnecessary.  Such is the
case with mashouts.
 
 
chris campanelli

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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 15:12:09 -0500
From: "Jeff M. Michalski, MD" <michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu>
Subject: barleywine yeast

Barlyewine is featured in the latest issue of zymurgy.
The use of a yeast mixture has been suggested by some "experts"
but the author of this article claims he has never used
anything but ale yeast. 

Any comments from the HBD?  If a combination of ale and other
yeast are used, should they be combined day one at pitching, or 
should the wine or champagne yeast be added after initial fermentation
settles down?  If an ale yeast is considered hearty enough, which 
varieties are best?  If an ale yeast isn't enough, which wine or 
champagne yeasts are good quality additions?

thanks,
JEFF M. MICHALSKI
michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu


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Date: Tue, 19 Oct 93 14:32 CDT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: lauter tun designs/amylase/Belgian yeasts

Wyllie Coyote posted a very good summary of lauter tuns.  I'd like
to add just a few comments:
>    1.    Grain bag in a bucket with a spigot near the bottom of the
>    bucket. Grain bag is held in place with elastic (bungee). Bag is 
>    mesh material.I used one of these for several years. Worked fine.   
>    Disadvantage: Size limitation, not insulated, unless you stick it 
>    in a box. Bag would slip sometimes.

Please note that due to a fluid mechanics phenomenon called "channeling"
it is recommended that the grain bag you use for the above system should
bave relatively "waterproof" sides and only the bottom should be made
of mesh.

>to allow me to run water through the manifold to clear it.  I also 
>fashioned a metal screen to fit over the manifold- kinda like a 
>false bottom  to make a flatter surface for the grain bed (can you 
>say "overkill"?). It keeps big grain bits away from the tubing- 
>aiding the grain bed establishment, and makes it easier to lift 
>the grain out of the cooler into my healthy compost pile. I don't

Perhaps it makes it easier to remove the grains, but if indeed it keeps the
large particles of grain away from the manifold, then you don't need the
manifold.  As you said yourself, it's the grain bed that does the filtering
and it requires that the large pieces be at the bottom, smaller on top of
those, etc.  If the mesh is holding up the large husk pieces, you should
be establishing your bed on the screen and omitting the manifold.

In all fairness, the commercial devices should have been mentioned.  The
ones that I know of are the Phil's Phalse Bottom, which is similar in
function to the Zapap design, but works a bit differently.  The only
comment I have about this design is that it has been mentioned on the HBD
that the hose has a tendancy to kink where it comes out of the Phalse
Bottom.  Replacing this with an elbow seems to fix the problem.

Another design I know of is available commercially and you can make it
yourself: the EasyMasher(tm) or easymasher.  This design uses a piece of
screen (like stainless windowscreen) formed into a tube and then hoseclamped
to a brass tube that makes its way through the wall of the kettle.  I would
imagine you could mount it in a cooler too.  My concern about this design
is that the runoff is drawn from a very small area of the mash and would
(again, due to channeling) theoretically give lower extraction rates than
a lautering system which takes the runoff from a wider range of the cross-
section of the grain bed.  I must stress *theoretically* since a number of
users have reported very good extraction rates.

There are a number of very expensive commercial systems (made from straight-
sided kegs), which are actually scaled-down versions of full-size commercial
lauter tuns.  I have no experience nor have heard much about them so it's
too soon to tell.  Cost is a big disadvantage.

Finally, the RIMS system should be mentioned.  RIMS stands for Recirculating
Infusion Mash System (I believe) and recent improvements have apparently
increased the capacity of this system.  I know that George Fix was very
impressed with the new design of this system.  It's biggest disadvantage
is cost.

Disclaimer -- I don't sell ANY lauter tuns or commercial devices for the
building of lauter tuns, so I'd say I'm pretty impartial on this.

*****************************
Steve writes:
>I am a bit confused over the use of Amylase Enzyme when brewing all
>grain beer.  My understanding is that it contains Alpha Amalyse.
>
>My understanding is that Alpha Amylase is denatured around 130 degF.
>If this is correct what good is the enzyme at mash temps above 140
>degF?

I assume you are talking about a commercial version of Amylase Enzyme.
I've never used any commercial versions, but you really shouldn't need
any unless you are using a lot of adjunts like boiled rice, oats, wheat
flour, oat flour, cornstarch, unmalted grains, etc.  Malted barley and
malted wheat have more than enough amylase on their own to convert their
starches as well as a reasonable amount of adjuncts.

There's alpha amylase and beta amylase.  Alpha amylase is less temperature
sensitive than beta.  Alpha slowly begins to denature above 140F, I believe,
but will last a couple of hours even at 158F.  Beta amylase also begins
to denature at about 140F also, but denatures quite quickly above 150F.
Alpha amylase converts starches and dextrins into glucose until it reaches
a branch that it can't "eat" leaving a limit dextrin.  Beta amylase works
by cutting large chains of glucose into smaller chains.  If you mash at
the lower end of the 148F to 158F range, the two enzymes will work together
to make a highly fermentable, thin (low body) beer.  If you mash at the
higher end of the range, you will get a less fermentable, heavier (higher
body), slightly sweeter beer.  Something in-between, will get you something
in-between.

The enzymes that denature around 130F would probably be one of the proteolytic
(protein degrading) enzymes.  There are two there also: Peptidase and
Protease, but I forget which does what.  The two of them work together like
the amylase enzymes to break large proteins into small proteins and amino
acids.  At lower protein rest temps, you get more amino acids, less body
and less head-retaining small proteins.  At higher protein rest temps, you
get less amino acids and more small proteins (better head retention and
more body).

***************************
Stu writes:
>suggestions here?  Would it help to culture a Chimay or Duvel and repitch

Chimay is bottled with the fermenting yeast, Duvel (I've been told) is not.

Al.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1252, 10/21/93