FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Wyeast 2308 Munich Unstable? (Phil Brushaber)
  Malto-Dextrin Gravity Rating (s.quarterman)
  addendum to carboy-handle note - negative datum (Dick Dunn)
  name?/forced decoction ("Daniel F McConnell")
  Need Advice on Chimay Recipe (Jamie Ide  21-Oct-1993 0848)
  Yeast Labs Products (GANDE)
  Beerhunting in Belgium: Part 3 (Liefmans and Oud Bruins) ("Phillip Seitz")
  Re: beer drinks & drinks (Paul Anderson)
  Re: spruce beer (John D. Pavao)
  Re: barleywine yeast (Jason Goldman)
  layered beer (Fritz Keinert)
  Clean it up? (GANDE)
  Plans for Grain Mill (Steve Seaney)
  Benjamin Machine Products address ("Bob Jones")
  Re: Beer Nuts (Matthew Rowley) (ROWLEY)
  infected brew and head (Tom Tomazin)
  Holiday Ale anyone? (EZIMMERM)
  Brewing with nuts (Dave Lame)
  Aerating wort (Todd Thompson)
  Polyethylene Mashout (Jack Schmidling)
  Beer Drinks, Fruit Beers and Spruce Beers (Chris Cook)
  uk pubbing (BadAssAstronomer)
  amylase confusion (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
  Hot Priming/Keg Request (Dion Hollenbeck)
  re: [beer drinks, the Kansas version.... (Jim Sims)
  Low-temp Bottle Conditioning Query (drose)
  Pubs in Phoenix (M. Umehara)
  Going all-grain (Wolfe)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Wed, 20 Oct 93 21:12:00 -0600
From: phil.brushaber at lunatic.metronet.com (Phil Brushaber)
Subject: Wyeast 2308 Munich Unstable?



This weekend I am going to brew a dopplebock (and hope for a taste
like Paulander Salvator). I went with Wyeast Bavarian Yeast, but
I was intreagued with Wyeast Munich.

Wyeast publishes the following description:

2308.  Munich Yeast from Wissenschaftliche in Munich #308.  One of the
first pure yeast available to American homebrewers.  Sometimes
unstable,
but smooth soft well rounded and full bodied.  Medium flocculation,
apparent attenuation 73-77%.  Optimum fermentation temperature:  50
deg.
F (10 deg. C).

Has anybody had experience with this yeast? What is so
unstable about this yeast? How does it manefest its instbility?



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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 07:40:00 BST
From: s.quarterman at genie.geis.com
Subject: Malto-Dextrin Gravity Rating

I was just wondering if anyone here might have an idea of the amount of
fermentables available when using the malto-dextrin extracts that are
available.  I would like to have a close approximation of the gravity
available from 1 lb in 1 gallon of water.
 
Also, what temperature would be good to make test solutions of extracts and
water?  I was thinking about dissolving some extracts but do not want to
boil the solution as I would not be guaranteed to be left with 1 gallon of
water.
 
TIA
 
Steve Quarterman >><< Portland, Or
 S.Quarterman at GEnie.geis.com

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Date: 19 Oct 93 01:58:53 MDT (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: addendum to carboy-handle note - negative datum

I got a followup note from the one person I mentioned in my carboy handle
article the other day who had a problem with the handles: He told me that
he was using the carboy handle on a 6-gallon (not 6.5 / 25 liter, as I'd
reported) and that it has a standard-diameter neck.  He saw some cracking/
crazing around the neck with the handle, so I'd say stay away from using
the handles for this size of carboy.  (It's not one I've encountered--
I've only used the 5-gallon water-cooler size and the 6.5 gallon sulfuric
acid style.)

And, as always, be careful with carboys.  Relax, don't worry...but PAY
ATTENTION.
 ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

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Date: 21 Oct 1993 01:41:36 U
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu>
Subject: name?/forced decoction

                       Subject:                               Time:1:26 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          name?/forced decoction                 Date:10/21/93

Greetings:

The last batch of beer that I brewed I had intended to be lazy but I was 
FORCED to do a decoction-this isn't a bad thing, but plans are plans, 
anyway more on that later.  As I brought the mash up to saccharification 
temp (67C in this case) I could TELL when I was almost there just by 
looking at the mash. Suddenly if became very foamy and just looked 
right.  I have noticed this in the past, but this time it hit 
me....THERE MUST BE A NAME FOR THIS.  Surely the Germans had (have) a 
name for it.  Any guesses?  Like maybe Saccharification with an umlaut or two?

The reason that I did a decoction is less clear.  I used Durst malt, a 
high quality German Pilsner malt.  I had planned to mash in at protein 
rest temp and then recirculate and bring the mash up to 67C by heating 
the tun.  I mashed in at 50C and as I started to recirculate, nothing 
but a trickle.  VERY milky looking.  Stirring helped, thinning helped, 
but it would always slow and then stop.  OK, OK, OK, I'll decoct.  The 
beautiful malt aroma that was produced during that step made me wonder 
why I was tempted to do without.  As soon as the main mash came up to 
67C, recirculation commenced and things went as expected, although an 
hour later than desired.  Sparged wonderfully, no problems here.  This 
is the second time I have used this malt and the second time I had this 
problem which was solved the same way in both cases.  Since the first 
was a Triple and the second was a deviant variation-on-a-Pilsner maybe 
this is Gambrinis forcing me to do the right thing-decoct with 
continental malt.  Comments?  Don't tell me to switch malts, I still 
have most (65 lbs) of a 100 lb sack to go.  

This COULD be a Motor-Corona problem although I have never had this 
difficulty with Breiss malt. I'll use a Malt Mill in the next go to 
eliminate that variable.  Perhaps adding a small percentage of Breiss to 
establish a better filter bed or assist in conversion/protein breakdown 
may help. Anyone else seen a stuck RIMS only at protein rest temp that 
went away at saccharification temp? 
  
DanMcC




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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 05:53:06 PDT
From: Jamie Ide 21-Oct-1993 0848 <ide at studio.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Need Advice on Chimay Recipe

    I'd like to brew an all-grain Chimay clone (Grande Reserve) and need
    some advice on the recipe.  Are there any new thoughts on this now that
    Belgian malts are available?  What should I use for the base malt?

    How does the Wyeast Belgian compare to cultured Chimay yeast?  Which am
    I better off using?

    Any help will be appreciated.

    Jamie Ide		ide at studio.enet.dec.com

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Date: 21 Oct 93 14:03:51 GMT
From: GANDE at slims.attmail.com
Subject: Yeast Labs Products

I've recently started using Yeast Labs liquid cultures, as a
replacement for Wyeast.  I have yet to have a batch to sample and
was curious what the apparant attenuation of their yeasts was.  I
checked the FAQ at Stanford and there is no mention of it.  Anyone
know, or know where to get this info on the net?...

TIA...GA
+----------------------------------+
| Internet: gande at slims.attmail.com|
| Glenn Anderson                   |
| Manager, Telecom. Facilities     |
| Sun Life of Canada               |
+----------------------------------+














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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 08:56:33 -0400
From: "Phillip Seitz" <p00644 at psilink.com>
Subject: Beerhunting in Belgium: Part 3 (Liefmans and Oud Bruins)

[NOTE: My apologies for the long time it has taken for these posts to
materialize; the problem is the long line of posts waiting for Digest
publication.  Having had too many Rocheforts myself, I'm not even sure
which chapters have been posted and which haven't, and apologise if any
of them appear twice.  We'll make sure they all get out.  I only hope it
will have been worth the wait.]

Beer Hunting in Belgium: Part 3 of 7

Liefmans Brewery and Oud Bruins
      (by Phil Seitz)

      Oudenaard is known for its brown beers, particularly its
oud bruins, which have a characteristic tartness.  Local brown
beer breweries include Liefmans, Roman, Claryisse and Cnudde. 
The first three are featured in an annual brown beer festival
held in late June.
      The Liefmans Brewery is located just outside Oudenaarde in
a group of aged brick industrial buildings.  Liefmans was
purchased several years ago by the Riva brewing company, and has
seven on-site employees.
      A substantial part of the brewery is now being converted
into a beer museum and reception center.  The brewery is no
longer mashing or boiling wort; instead, wort is prepared at the
Riva Brewery in Dentergem and delivered, sterile, for
fermentation at Liefmans.  Liefmans' antiquated mash tuns and
kettles are being retained as part of the museum.
      Our initial expectation of lessening quality with
industrial ownership appeared to be unfounded.  Our guide, one of
the brewers, said that during the 1980s Liefmans had substantial
quality control problems, and that production had fallen from
30,000 hectoliters in 1980 to 8,000 hectoliters in 1990, which is
approximately when the change of ownership took place. 
Production is now picking up (11,000 hectoliters annually) and
quality appears to have stabilized.  The tales we'd heard of
Madame Rose, who lovingly looked after the brewery, sounded like
myths as we heard stories of about what appeared to be a lack of
proper attention to operations.  
      Other published information also appears to have been a bit
mythologised.  For instance, Liefmans boiled in room-size square
kettles for an overnight simmer.  These days the beer receives
the standard 1.5-2 hour boil.  This sounded like a concession to
modern times until we saw the kettles, which contained heating
elements so obviously inadequate that it quite likely took all
night just to get the wort to the boiling point.
      The one aspect where there has been a substantial change is
in the cooling.  Prior to Riva Liefmans used two large cool ships
for initial cooling, and during cooling diluted its high-gravity
wort with approximately 1 part water to three parts wort.  From
these cool ships the beer was then pumped over open-air cooling
columns (beudelots?) and into the open fermenters.  Nowadays the
sterile wort goes straight to the fermenters.  We thought that
exposure to beneficial micro-organisms might be sacrificed by
skipping these steps--affecting the trademark sourness of the
beers--but our guide felt the Liefmans' yeast strain was
sufficient to produced the desired flavor.  Tasting was believing
in this case and it appears that the new regime has not resulted
in any major sacrifices.
      The brewery makes two basic beers, one at 5% ABV and one at
6%, from which a variety of blended products are produced.  Both
worts are made entirely from pilsner and caramel malts, and each
is fermented with the same yeast in swimming-pool-sized open
fermenters.  We were there during the first day of fermentation,
and the quantities of foam and yeast running off were truly
impressive.  On day 3 yeast is skimmed and collected for reuse.
      The basic beers then go into steel secondary tanks.  The 5%
beer is run into fermenters loaded by hand with cherries or
raspberries--typically about 1 lb per gallon.  The beer sits on
the cherries for a year or more before being filtered, blended
with about 40% of the 6% beer, pasteurized, sweetened and force
carbonated for bottling.  
      The 6% beer itself becomes Goudenband, which receives much
the same treatment but is not blended.  Another beer, Odnar, is
produced by diluting the 6% beer to about 4.5%.  This is sold
locally as a table beer, and presumably is sweetened also. 
      We had a chance to taste the unblended beers directly from
the fermenters, and found the product at this stage to be rather
lambic-like in its tartness, though much cleaner overall. 
Obviously there is a bacterial component to the yeast being used.
      Another change in recent years is that the Goudenband is no
longer aged before sale.  This is unfortunate, as the brewer
noted that at least six months of down time improves the product
substantially.  We asked why this would be, given that the beers
contain no residual yeast.  He said oxidation from exposure to
air in the head space adds an essential element to the mature
product.  He also said local consumers were aware of the change,
and laid their bottles down prior to consumption.  A taste of
fresh, on-tap Goudenband later on did seem to indicate that a
certain bite was missing.  The cellars shown on page 105 of
Jackson's NEW WORLD GUIDE still have bottle in them, but it is a
bad batch from 1987 that is being retained for purposes of the
beer museum.
      Throughout most of Europe Liefmans products are sold
wrapped in tissue paper.  We happened to be there on the day that
a large number of bottles were being wrapped--by hand.  The
workers' speed was impressive--between 2,000 and 3,000 bottles a
day--but frankly, between the wrapping work and the need to load
and evacuate the fruit from the fermenters by hand, this did not
seem to be a particularly attractive place to work.
      Because the brewery is small it does cater to special
orders and requests.  Liefmans sells beer in bottles up to
magnum-sized, but area residents can bring larger bottles and
leave them to be custom filled.  We saw a storage area with a
fair number of jereboams and larger bottles, each one tagged with
the name of the owner, awaiting pickup.  
      Liefmans has an indoor taproom and outdoor terrace fronting
on a canal.  A glass of Goudenband and each of the fruit beers is
included in the tour price.  Their fruit products, always
formidable in my opinion, are truly divine when fresh on tap. 
This is particularly true of the framboise (raspberry).
      Tours of the brewery are available by appointment, and cost
100 francs.  We were the only people on the tour.  Our guide
spoke English, and was obviously intimately familiar with the
brewing process, having worked at Liefmans as a brewer for
several years and also having received a degree in brewing
studies in Gent.  The telephone number is 055/31.13.91.      
      Other local brown beers include Felix (produced by the
Claryisse brewery), which is similar to Goudenband, and brown ale
from Roman, which is similar in color and body to its neighbors'
products but is hoppier and not at all tart--rather a rich
version of a standard brown ale.


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 09:16:45 -0400
From: paul at grammatech.com (Paul Anderson)
Subject: Re: beer drinks & drinks

All this talk of odd combinations of drinks reminds me of
a peculiar sounding combination a friend introduced me to
in England:  Guinness and port.  It sounds disgusting,
but tastes amazingly good.  I recall that the ratio was
one glass of port to one pint of draught Guinness.

Happy days,
Paul Anderson.

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 09:45:47 EDT
From: pavao at ptsws1 (John D. Pavao)
Subject: Re: spruce beer


Dear Homebrewers,
     Thanks to those who responded both publicly in HBD and privately to my 
question about spruce beer in digest #1249.  Based on the responses, 
I plan to brew a batch using the recipe from TNCJOHB which is the one I was
thinking about trying anyway.  For my first attempt I'll use half an ounce of
spruce essence just to see how it goes.  I'll let you know how it comes
out and what kinds of responses I get by those trying it.
     Thanks again for your comments.

John
ptsws1.npt.nuwc.navy.mil

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 7:57:37 MDT
From: Jason Goldman <jason at gibson.sde.hp.com>
Subject: Re: barleywine yeast

"Jeff M. Michalski, MD" <michalski_jm at rophys.wustl.edu> writes:
> 
> Barlyewine is featured in the latest issue of zymurgy.
> The use of a yeast mixture has been suggested by some "experts"
> but the author of this article claims he has never used
> anything but ale yeast. 
> 
> Any comments from the HBD?  If a combination of ale and other
> yeast are used, should they be combined day one at pitching, or 
> should the wine or champagne yeast be added after initial fermentation
> settles down?  If an ale yeast is considered hearty enough, which 
> varieties are best?  If an ale yeast isn't enough, which wine or 
> champagne yeasts are good quality additions?

Several of the people I know who make barleywine use 2 yeasts, including
the one whose recipe I started from for my first one (thanks Glenn).  I
start the fermentation with ale yeast and after it's started to slow a
little, I pitch champagne yeast.  I don't recall off the top of my head
which particular yeasts I used.

Jason
jason at gibson.sde.hp.com 

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 08:57:01 CDT
From: Fritz Keinert <keinert at iastate.edu>
Subject: layered beer

While we are on the subject of beer drinks: does anybody know how to
get two differently colored beers (like Guinness and Bass Ale) in two
layers in the same glass? We tried it once during a party, with no
success.
- ---
Fritz Keinert                             phone:  (515) 294-5223
Department of Mathematics                 fax:    (515) 294-5454
Iowa State University                     e-mail: keinert at iastate.edu
Ames, IA 50011

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Date: 21 Oct 93 15:04:55 GMT
From: GANDE at slims.attmail.com
Subject: Clean it up?

It seems some may take offense to contents of taglines containing
words like "fake", "orgasm" and "basketball", such as Chris's
comments yesterday. Personally, I find these words, when used in the
context that they were to be quite amusing, and after all women have
the right to fake an orgasm too. On the other hand, IMO any game that
you get to more than 100 points in, like basketball, has something
wrong with the rules.

I pay to read the HBD each day and find many things 'offensive' in
it, such as pages and pages of yesterday's quotes with one line
responses, rhetorical discussions with little or no outcome, battles
of ego's, etc.  I don't complain because this is the culture and I
understand. I am a homebrewer, relaxed and tolerant with a sense of
humour. Lighten up, eh.

 ....Glenn Anderson
+----------------------------------+
| Internet: gande at slims.attmail.com|
| Glenn Anderson                   |
| Manager, Telecom. Facilities     |
| Sun Life of Canada               |
+----------------------------------+





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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 09:17:55 -0500 (CDT)
From: Steve Seaney <seaney at ie.engr.wisc.edu>
Subject: Plans for Grain Mill


Hello,

The other day I saw one of Jack Schmedling's  (sp?) grain mills at a
brew store.  It doesn't appear to be that hard to make.  The cost
seems extremely high.

Has anyone out there ever made a roller mill?  Do you have any plans
handy?

Thanks,
Steve
- -- 
Steve Seaney: 608/265-3954: seaney at engr.wisc.edu

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 07:25:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: "Bob Jones" <bjones at novax.llnl.gov>
Subject: Benjamin Machine Products address

Here is BMP address FYI.......


Benjamin Machine Products
1121 Doker unit #7
Modesto, Calif. 95351

Fax number 209-523-8874


I believe the last I heard the price of the CP filler was $55. Yep Micah is
the designer of this CP filler, I use one and highly recommend it!
I spoke with Micah earlier this week and ask him how things were going at
the brewery? He said they are selling all the beer they make and are in the
process of expansion. He is a one man show at Murphy's Creek brewery. I
personally haven't had much chance to taste any of their beers, they are not
widely distributed here in the bay area. They seem to find a market in the
gold country large enough to sell most all their beer they make. I plan on
going up and brewing with Micah one of these days and will report back. I
told him I would _not_ clean out any mash tuns!

Bob

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 09:27:35 -0500 (UTC -05:00)
From: ROWLEY at kuhub.cc.ukans.edu
Subject: Re: Beer Nuts (Matthew Rowley)

Paul asks about brewing with nuts (not bold brewing-proper nuts). You've
read my mind, brother. That same question was why I logged on this morning.
I had an idead to throw some roasted almonds in a batch, but refrained
because I've seen all kinds of wierd business go into beers, but never
nuts; I've never seen any recipes for it, either.
	I suspect that the oils in nuts would absolutely kill any head,
though (comparable to doing the nose grease trick to your entire run).
If'n anyone can offer advice otherwise, I'd love to be shown wrong.

Matthew

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 09:39:24 -0500 (CDT)
From: tomt at nano.sps.mot.com (Tom Tomazin)
Subject: infected brew and head

A couple weekends ago I brewed up 2 batches, a red bitter and an octoberfest.
Last weekend, I racked both into secondaries.  Well, I was a little lax
in my sanitation, and I think the octoberfest is infected.  A day
after racking, the red bitter developed a nice "mini" krausen, while the
octoberfest had none, although it was bubbling frequently.  I let both
go for a couple days, and yesterday I decided to try I revive the 
octoberfest.  I gave the carboy several good shakes, and while it developed
some "froth", it quickly dissipated.  Aerating the same batch in the
primary produced a dense head that lingered.  By the way, I used Wyeast
European Ale yeast (in 2 sixteen oz starters) for both batches.

I decided to taste the octoberfest to see if it was sour, and it was (a little)
but didn't really taste too bad.  So I think I have learned two important
lessons here:

1.  Sanitize everything carefully (dah)

2.  The problems that a lot of people have with carbonation and head retention
(including myself) may be related to infections that don't completely foul
the beer, but just add off flavors.  In fact, if I didn't think that this
beer was infected, I might not have even noticed (if it was bottled and
chilled), although I would have noticed the poor head retention.

But why does an infection kill head?  And what can I do with this 5 gallon
batch of infected brew?

Thanks,
Tom

- --
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Thomas Tomazin                              Parallel Scalable Processor Design 
MOTOROLA SPS, Inc.                          (512) 505-8124
505 Barton Springs Rd. Suite 1055           Austin, Texas 78762 

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 08:42:30 -0600 (MDT)
From: EZIMMERM at UWYO.EDU
Subject: Holiday Ale anyone?

Salutations!
   My homebrew club, the famous Snowy Range Foamentors, is going to
have a local homebrewing contest. The beer of the month for December, the 
month of the contest, is Holiday Ale. I'm wondering if anyone out
on the Net has any really good extract ale recipes they think might be
good? I'm always preaching the values of a well read HomeBrew Digest to them,
but most of them think they can live with out the wealth of information 
available here. Well, I'm going to tap this source and try to win
the contest. Any suggestions?

Gene in Laramie


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 11:26:35 EST
From: Dave Lame <dlame99 at prog.c4.gmeds.com>
Subject: Brewing with nuts

Paul Selkirk asks -

"The other day, while roasting some hickory nuts from my neighbor's tree, I got 
to wondering if anyone ever brewed with nuts."

I will answer - sort of.

     I make mead, and I'm also a member of the Society for Creative 
Anachronism, a medieval recreation group.  I was reading a book called "The 
Sacred Bee", all about the history and folklore of bees, mead and honey.  It 
had a quote from an eighth century Irish manuscript in which there was a 
reference to mead made from "honey of the bee and milk of the hazel".  There 
were also references in other places to "hazel milk".  The author went on to 
explain that immature hazel nuts had a thin white liquid in them, and that 
these eighth century lads would gather the immature hazel nuts and use this 
little liquid to add to their mead.
    They would do this because the hazel was a sacred plant which, like honey, 
would give eloquence and insight to the imbiber.  So, mead and hazel together 
was sure to be a magical drink.
    I couldn't picture people running around finding unripe hazel nuts and 
getting a few drops of liquid from each one.  Their old magic was a bit more 
practical than that.  Being strongly inclined to recreate something from eighth 
century Ireland, which was only 100 years or so later than my own adopted time 
period for recreation, I decided to experiment.  Instead of using "hazel milk" 
from immature hazel nuts, which would be rather difficult to find and process, 
I just decided to throw in some nuts.
    I crushed up the nuts, and I always boil some honey and water together to 
put into the primary.  I boiled the honey and water, and poured it over crushed 
hazel nuts.  Lo and behold, the boiling water pouring over the nuts released a 
lot of oil in them, and it formed a suspension in the top of the primary.  The 
result was a milky-white liquid.  This, I realized, was the real "hazel milk" 
to which the Irish were referring.
     I have no doubt that this hazel milk made the Irish mead better, and I'm 
sure that they attributed this to the magical property of the hazel.  I suspect 
that another factor may have been at work.  Their quality control wasn't the 
best, and I'm sure that they made many a bad batch, polluted by lots of the 
sulfur compounds that produce awful smells.  These sulfur compounds are soluble 
in oil much more so than in water.  By adding the "magical" nuts, and skimming 
off the oil, they got rid of the sulfur compounds, making the mead taste better.

    Enough history, you might be wondering how well it worked.  I've had mixed 
reviews.  There are a couple of problems with using nuts.  First, there is the 
flavor of the nuts themselves.  It is very strong and somewhat "woody" in the 
final mead.  Not very many people associate this with wines, and a lot of 
people just plain don't like it.  Some do like it, but many don't.  I suspect 
that it might be somewhat more popular in a beer, especially a darker, heavier, 
beer.  Second, there is the oil.  Most beer and wine is made with water and 
sugar, adding a fair quantity of fat in there requires special caution.
    I've made two batches so far.  In the first batch, although the mead looked 
clear, I actually ended up with floating patches of oil in the glass.  The 
residual oil had gotten together and floated to the top after a few months in 
the bottles.  In the second batch, I used finings, twice.  I racked it an extra 
time, being very sure not to mix it up in transport, so that all the oil would 
be on top.  I made sure the siphon was well below the top so that the oil would 
not come with the mead.  It worked fairly well.  There was no oil left in my 
second batch, although it was not as clear as some of my other efforts.
     One thing you should definitely do, in my opinion, is to use the "hazel 
milk", or milk of whatever nut you use, rather than using the whole nut.  I did 
that with my second batch, and it was much easier to handle, with no noticeable 
change in the nut flavor.  Grind up the nuts and pour boiling water over them, 
and use the liquid that forms.  I don't know what is a good amount.  I used two 
pounds of nuts for a gallon of mead, but that was just a guess.  I wouldn't use 
any more, and next batch I'll probably use less.
    I submitted it for judging.  The judges recommended using oak chips in the 
next batch, and they also recommended a long aging period, to let the flavor 
mellow somewhat.  The mead was also dry, and they recommended making it 
sweeter.  Some experiments mixing sugar into it confirmed this was probably a 
very good idea, as the bouquet and flavor were both improved.

    All things considered, mead and nuts were an ok idea, and I intend to do it 
some more, but it is definitely a specialty drink.  You will find a few people 
who really like it, and a lot of people who would really rather have a nice 
amber ale.

    Since I intend to try this some more, I would like to know if anyone else 
has used nuts, and how well it worked.  I haven't seen any other references to 
nuts in brewing in books written since the eighth century.


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 08:51:31 PDT
From: todd at ted.hac.com (Todd Thompson)
Subject: Aerating wort


I'm a new brewer and have been reading homebrew digest for a couple of 
months. My question has to do with aeration of the freshly pitched wort. 
I've made two batches over the last few weeks while reading Papazian and 
Miller's books on the subject of homebrewing. Only then did I realize that 
I had done no where near the amount of shaking/stirring and bubbling they 
suggest. By this time my fermentations had stopped (after only 3 days).

I took off the airlock and replaced it with a stopper and proceeded to shake 
and swish the wort (now beer?) around for a few minutes. Immediately the 
beer started fermenting again and fermented very slowly for the next couple 
of days. Now the questions:

1) Was it a mistake to aerate once fermentation had stopped? (I would 
   rather not drink wet cardboard flavored beer!) Have I oxygenated too 
   late in the process?

2) How much aeration is necessary? Shaking a five-gallon fermenter even 
   for a few minutes can be hard on the back. Besides, some wort always 
   spills from around the edges of the lid while shaking. Is it really 
   necessary to shake the fermenter for 5 minutes every hour or two for 
   the first day? (Sorry I don't have the exact recommendations with me. 
   It seemed like alot of shaking to me, though.)

3) Is there a better way to aerate than shaking or the aquarium pump/air 
   stone method? It seems like an air stone for aquariums would be 
   difficult to sanitize.

Great discussion group! This is my only source of info other than books. 
Thanks for your responses in advance :-)!

Todd
toddthom at hac2arpa.hac.com

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 10:50 CDT
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Polyethylene Mashout

 
 >From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
  
 >I just bought a thick-wall polyethylene hose to run from my lauter tun to my
 boiler.  The hose I use now is a thin-wall vinyl hose which has a tendency to
 collapse when the hot liquor is flowing through it.  Any experience with this
 PE hose?  It is quite stiff, compared to the vinyl, translucent (similar to
 the vinyl after coming in contact with boiling wort), and has almost a waxy
 feel to it.  Also, it is rated for a fair amount of pressure, but says nothing
 about temperature.  Use it or lose it?
 
 I am using Low Density Polyethylene tubing for transferring wort.  It is FDA 
 approved and has a temp range of -70 to 120F and it handles sweet wort temp 
 just fine.  It softens up just enough to feel good.  I have a short piece of 
 copper tubing on the kettle end that goes to the bottom of the kettle to 
 avoid HSA for what ever that is worth.  I also have a ball valve above the 
 kettle so I can control the flow rate down there.
 
 I started out with 1/8" i.d. but the flow rate was too slow so I now use 
 1/4".  Not sure what you mean by thick-wall but this is 3/8" o.d. on the 1/4" 
 i.d. tubing.
 
 >From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
 
 >Over time, we incorporate new techniques into our brewing
 methodology when convinced of the new technique's merit.  I'm
 proposing the same action only in the opposite direction in that
 techniques can be eliminated when deemed unnecessary.  Such is the
 case with mashouts.
 
 Finally had to get serious and spoil the  fun, didn't you?
 
 That's tough to argue with, Chris and in the spirit of pioneering, I will 
 (might) give it a whirl on my next batch.  The only excuse I have left is 
 that the mash cools off very rapidlly in a steel kettle compared to an 
 insulated cooler and you might want to offer me a special dispensation.
 
 js
 
 

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Date:    Thu, 21 Oct 1993 16:04:11 GMT
From: COOK at CDHF2.GSFC.NASA.GOV (Chris Cook)
Subject: Beer Drinks, Fruit Beers and Spruce Beers

Beer drinks
- -----------
A couple of years ago my wife and I went out Polka dancing with another
couple that had recently returned from Germany.  In between dances we were
dringing from pitchers of Dortmunder Union and Coke.  Without prior
provocation, the husband mixed the two in his glass, calling it a 'Diesel'.
 
A what? we asked.
 
Diesel, he said, shrugging, that's what they call it in Germany.
 
Anything with a name that bad has to be tried.  It wasn't bad.
 
 
Fruit Beers
- -----------
I was making wines for years before starting beers, and fruit wines are
easier and quicker than grape wines.  It was simple extract stuff - dump in
a can or two of concentrate with corn sugar, sterilize using camden
tablets, balance the acid and, a day later, pitch dry yeast.
 
My first attempt to combine canned fruit must ['must' is the wine version
of wort] with beer was a cherry stout.  It was based loosely on Papazian's
recipe, with one 48 oz can of cherry wine concentrate added during the
boil.  Unfortunately, I think I was having a bad sanitation day - the beer
had metallic overtones that spoiled the flavor.  Or maybe boiling the
cherry concentrate was the mistake?
 
My second attempt was a light raspberry mead, which was fabulous.  It was a
lower-gravity sparkling mead, with one 48 oz can of raspberry must
concentrate and 7.5 pounds of honey for 5 gallons.  Everything was added at
the start of fermentation and I used camden tablets to sanitize, rather
than boiling.  I drank the last bottle years ago, but I remember it being
sparklingly clear, dry with a very pleasant raspberry nose, a subtle
flavor and a very nice reddish color.
 
Anyone else try using canned fruit must?
 
 
Spruce Beer
- -----------
In HBD1251, John (The Coyote) Wyllie <SLK6P at cc.usu.edu> talks about spruce
beer disasters. I've mentioned by love for a good spruce beer before in the
Digest, and with a recent batch I have another datapoint.
 
I've made variations of Papazian's Goat Scrotum Ale every year, including
spruce most of the time.  While they've all been different, they were all
generally rich, very full-bodied and dark beers, and the spruce just worked
well for me.  Until last year.
 
My procedure before that was to add a bottle (2 oz?) of spruce essence
with the extracts at the start of the boil.  The kitchen would smell
strongly (and nicely, I thought) all during the boil, and the resulting
spruce flavor was nice without being overpowering.
 
John mentioned using 6 oz of essence.  I don't know the brand, but that
sounds like a whole lot of essence.
 
Since I went all-grain, I started getting fancy ideas, and I thought that
maybe I shouldn't be boiling off all those aromatics in the spruce essence.
So for the next batch I added about the bottle at the end of the boil.  All
I can say is that it looked good on paper; the beer was undrinkable, with
strong, raw, somewhat chemical flavors.
 
I tried again this year with a dark spruce beer that I just got around to
kegging.  This time I made a light-bodied, dry stout with spruce added at
the beginning of the boil.  The spruce flavor is back where I wanted it,
without the harsh overtones.  Unfortunately, I find I don't care for the
flavor in a dry, light-bodied beer, or at least *that* dry, light-bodied
beer.  This fall I'm back to old crankcase 'n spruce.

Chris Cook
cook at cdhf2.gsfc.nasa.gov 

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 11:07:02 -0500 (CDT)
From: BadAssAstronomer <STOREY at fender.msfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: uk pubbing


>Well I'm back from 3 weeks of pub hoppin in England, Wales and Scotland. I
>got to tour 4 brewerys, Young's, Sam Smith's, Calandonion and Traquir House
>(it was under reconstruction). The brewerys were all very nice and seemed to
>bend the rules more than a bit when I mentioned I was a brewer from the
>states. I came back with 4 yeast samples and am looking forward to brewing
>some real ales. A few thoughts on things I was surprised about in the UK.
 
    You are a dog! :) I practically begged to tour Young's but to no
    avail. I got to see (from the outside anyway) quite a few
    breweries. It's almost hard not to there are so many around.

>* I expected cellar temp beer and low carbonation. The real ales are cellar
>temp (55 deg f) and DEAD flat. The ales may have a head if pulled via a
>sparkler on the beer engines.
 
    This is true. Almost every beer was cool enough to condensate the
    glass a bit. No head or very little each time.

>* All the beers were extremely small gravity compared to our beers here in
>the states.
 
    I wouldn't say that this is true of my experience. Although, most
    were of low gravity. I remember one though from Gibbs Mew called
    Bishop's Tipple, that was definitely strong. I had a couple of
    pints and felt just fine. 
     
>* An Imperial pint was about $2.25.
 
    I was paying about 1.80lb (~$3.25 then) so you got a bargain.

>* The Brits are very fussy about both clarity and a good pour. The fill
>damn well better be to the top and they don't want any haze. All the beers
>were extremely clear. I expected some floaters, I say NONE.
 
    They were very fussy about their cask served stuff as well. I
    visited one pub and got a cask served Young's Winter Warmer and it
    tasted awful. I had one 2 days prior at the same pub that was
    wonderful. So, I mentioned this to the barkeep, and he quickly
    apologized, covered the cask (mentioning to the others that "it
    was off"), and poured another pint of Young's Porter for me. I was
    more than a little suprised that he just took my word for it.

    All in all, I had a great trip (back in March) and hope to return
    as soon as I save enough money. I would recommend that experience
    to anybody.

    scott

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 09:48:45 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: amylase confusion

I believe that the confusion over the denaturation temperatures of amylase
enzyme results from the fact that barley alpha amylase and the purified
amylase sold by homebrew shop is a different enzyme, the latter comming
from a fungus (aspergillus?), and originally for use in brewing (?) sake.
There are many sources of enzymes that break down starch (can you say
salivary amylase?), the fungal one is probably the cheapest.  All of these
enzymes will have different optimal conditions and denaturations temps.
The enzyme I use for experimental mini-mashes is called Koji and the 
manufacturer gives 122F as the optimal temp., consistant with 130 or so
as the denaturation temp.

Jeremy Bergsman

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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 09:48:03 PDT
From: megatek!hollen at uunet.UU.NET (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Hot Priming/Keg Request


>>>>> On Tue, 19 Oct 93 09:18:43 PDT, 
	DJM1%CRPTech%DCPP at cts27.comp.pge.com said:

Dan> Does anyone out there on the HBD know where to obtain old (or
Dan> new, for that matter) 15 gal kegs....Searches of local Recycling
Dan> places are a no-go (yeah, I could actually buy some of that
Dan> massed-produced swill and keep the keg for the deposit).
Dan> TIA-----You can E-Mail me direct.

Well, it is possible to call around to beer suppliers (retail) and see
if they will be willing to let you pay the deposit and walk out with
an empty keg.  I did this with 4 kegs.  No problem.   Before I did, I
called the wholesale distributor and asked "If I do this, will the
retailer get in trouble?"  The reply was, "No, but someone up the line
will eventually have to pay the $150 value of the keg.  You know that
even though you pay $12 deposit, the kegs are not that cheap and
someone will eventually have to replace them."

I mailed off for some information on a RIMS system from SABCO
Save-a-Barrel and got literature about the kegs which they have
available.  They take commercial used kegs which have been proven
unfit to hold pressure, recondition them, cut out the top and install
a nipple and valve.  They sell from $65 to $150 depending on what
options you get done ($150 gets you the keg, a stainless ball valve
and a stainless thermometer well).  They also have lauter tun screens
available for the kegs.  (I am making the assumption that you want this
for a kettle, not for kegging).

They included a page describing that paying a deposit on a keg and
then taking it away forever is a crime and that some breweries are
taking individuals to court and winning suits (civil) against them for
doing this.  No mention was made of how often compared to the number
of people who actually do this.  Of course, their tactic is to scare
you into buying their product.

If anyone wants to contact them, I can look up the number, or they
advertise in Zymurgy and Brewing Techniques, the ad for the RIMS
system which is microprocessor controlled ( and BTW runs $3000 for the
complete system ).

Dion Hollenbeck (619)455-5590x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Senior Software Engineer                      megatek!hollen at uunet.uu.net
Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California    ucsd!megatek!hollen


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 13:30:57 EDT
From: sims at pdesds1.scra.org (Jim Sims)
Subject: re: [beer drinks, the Kansas version....

Return-Path: <Phyllis=Gunn%FICPO%MASC at vines.erl.gov>
Date: Wed, 20 Oct 93 14:01:48 MDT


Coors ain't no beer so how can it qualify as a beer mix!  Now that my 
feelings about Coors are known...The day Secretariat won the derby I was 
introduced to Bo-Peeps...1/2 Strohs (almost as bad) and 1/2 red wine! 
An old Kentucky receipe that works all too well!  Don't recommend it for 
anyone over 21.





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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 1993 14:05:43 -0400 (EDT)
From: drose at husc.harvard.edu
Subject: Low-temp Bottle Conditioning Query

	A friend without access to the net asked me to pass on the
following question.  He doing a real lager for the first time, has
fermented at low temp, bottled, and is now letting the beer condition at
around 45F.  At this temperature, how long can he expect it to take before
the beer is carbonated?  He opened one after 1-2 weeks (yes, that is very
early) and it was flat. Another problem he encountered: when fermenting at
low temp, how does one reliably determine that fermentation is over (i.e.
when fermentation is so slow, how do you decide that it has stopped?).  He
didn't like my answers to these questions: Get kegs so you don't have to
bottle condition, and brew ales so you don't have to wait so long.
							
						Thanks.

						Dave Rose.


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Date: Thu, 21 Oct 93 14:33:21 EDT
From: umehara at NADC.NADC.NAVY.MIL (M. Umehara)
Subject: Pubs in Phoenix

 I was wondering if anyone had any recommendations for
pubs/brewpubs in Phonenix?  Thanks in advance,

Mike
umehara at nadc.nadc.navy.mil

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Date: 21 Oct 93 10:37 CST
From: Wolfe at act-12-po.act.org
Subject: Going all-grain

     I'm ready to start all-grain brewing, and I would like some advice.

     First, I am considering mashing on a burner rather than using a
cooler for a mash tun.  Is the primary reason for using the cooler rather
than a burner the reduced investment in time and money?  I guess I want to
know how much of a hassle is it to mash on the stove as opposed to mashing
in a cooler and if there are any differences in the quality of the brew.

     Second, because I want to mash on the stove I need to invest in a
larger brew kettle.  So far, I've only done high density extract &
partial mash brewing so I've gotten by with only a 2.5 gallon kettle.  I've
found a medium-duty 7.5 gallon SS kettle with a lid and a spigot for about
$100.  I am toying with the idea of moving on to 10 gallon batches in the
future.  Is the kettle described here a worthwhile investment, and could I
still use it to mash grains for a 10 gallon batch of brew?

     Third, I read a comment a while back about trying to get a 5 gallon
batch of all-grain brew into a 5 gallon carboy.  I have three five gallon
carboys (They were cheap!  $7 at a local used stuff store.).  Will I have a
problem using these for my all-grain batches?  When I started doing partial
mashes I got a lot more blowoff in the primary.  Will the blowoff in a 5
gallon carboy be unmanagable with an all-grain batch.  I've been using a
stopper and a racking can as my blowoff valve, but have heard a number of
people report using a 1" pipe attached to the top of the carboy.  Any
insights?

     Finally, I have Miller's and Papazian's books.  Can anyone suggest a
good next book for someone who brews mostly ales that is getting into
serious all-grain brewing (e.g., Foster's _Pale Ale_)?

Ed Wolfe

WOLFE at ACT-12-PO.ACT.ORG

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1254, 10/25/93