FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  twist-offs, and bottlestuff (Dick Dunn)
  Getting the yeast to drop (23-Nov-1993 0757 -0500)
  Bottle Pressure (was Crabtree Effect) (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  RE: clarifying Wyeast 1028 (npyle)
  Get a life! ("Pamela J. Day 7560")
  chiller break in (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  sam and wasted wort (Mark Bunster)
  PureSeal caps (Chuck Wettergreen)
  Tannin extraction (Ed Hitchcock)
  yeast wash (RONALD DWELLE)
  Glatt malt mill users (David Pike)
  "beer" adds (James Clark)
  new chiller, SA (Russell Gelinas)
  Anchor "clarifications" (Mark Garetz)
  Metallic/Mineral Flavor (Patrick_Waara.WBST129)
  howto siphon hot wort (Andy Rowan)
  Lovibond (Gary S. Kuyat)
  Tarpit Stout && Can we repitch with champagne yeast in secondary? (Trever Miller)
  Mail Order (Don Pickerel  at  Micom.com)
  Kegging FAQ (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  kegging pressures (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
  Rauchbier aroma (WESTEMEIER)
  calcium chloride (Rob Skinner)
  Hops as preservatives/Dryhopping problem/Brown Ale yeast/dark mash (korz)
  Crabtree/sterols/peroxide (korz)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 23 Nov 93 00:39:15 MST (Tue)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: twist-offs, and bottlestuff

I don't think there's any particular trend to twist-off caps.  Brewers
just choose one or the other when they get going.

Sierra Nevada has *always* used twist-offs, as far as I remember.  I
can't verify that all the way back to the beginning, but I've got an '83
Celebration Ale here, and one of the original Bigfoot with the line-
drawing (no color) label, both of which are twist-off.  [BTW, anybody know
when that first Bigfoot was brewed?  I'm sure it's 86 or earlier.  Is it
time to drink it yet?:-]

As for re-capping twistoffs, it's probably a good-news/bad-news situation.
The good news is that the "threads" on the bottle are pretty fragile, so if
a bottle is getting old, that might be the first place that fails.  The bad
news is that you find out the bottle is getting old *after* you've filled
it and tried to cap it.

In this area, there seems to be a microbrewery preference for the 22 oz
(US arcane measure) longnecks.  They seem to be reasonably sturdy, and the
packing density on storage shelves is pretty good.  I used to like the 25
oz Tooth's Sheaf Stout bottles, but they've changed the bottle (phoo on
the silly CUB stamped label) and it's a lot easier to get bottles from the
variety of products from 4 local breweries plus various west-coast micros
than from one brew shipped half way 'round the world.  5 gal, even with
carboy headspace and sediment, is still more than 2 cases of 22 oz, but I
bottle the rest in 12 oz for taste checks, solo drinking, etc.
- ---
Dick Dunn    rcd at eklektix.com   -or-   raven!rcd    Boulder, Colorado USA
   ...Simpler is better.

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 07:59:18 EST
From: 23-Nov-1993 0757 -0500 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: Getting the yeast to drop

>Date: Mon, 22 Nov 93 15:44:44 EST
>From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
>Subject: clarifying Wyeast 1028
>
>I've never had problems clearing beer until I started using Wyeast #1028
>(London Ale).  Is there a fining agent other than Isinglass that will
>get this yeast to drop to the bottom?

Tony, you might try chilling your brew (while in the fermenter) to make the
yeast drop.  One micro I toured in the UK does this to clean their beer - 
they chill their ale to make the yeast fall...


JC ferguson

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 08:38:39 -0600
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: Bottle Pressure (was Crabtree Effect)

In HBD 1279, Todd Carlson writes:

    As for the CO2, the 1.61 moles
    produced would increase the pressure 
    to about 2 atmospheres or 30 psi (again     
    using PV=nRT) assuming the beer is 
    already saturated with CO2.  As for the
    ethanol, this would be a maximum estimate.
    What is the desired CO2 pressure of
    finished beer?  Does this sound about
    right?


For most beer styles, 2.5 volumes of CO2 is 
normal.  At 70F, beer contains about 2.4 
volumes at 28 PSI, and 2.7 volumes at 32 PSI.  
This from a chart published by Standard-Keil (a 
beverage dispensing equipment manufacturer).  
So your calculations are right close, 
perfesser.  Thanks.

	t



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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 8:20:31 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: RE: clarifying Wyeast 1028

Anton Verhulst writes:

>I've never had problems clearing beer until I started using Wyeast #1028
(London Ale).  Is there a fining agent other than Isinglass that will
get this yeast to drop to the bottom?

Anton, if memory serves me correctly, 1028 is the stickiest yeast I've ever
used.  I mean it goes to the bottom, and stays there; which makes for great
pouring.  I wonder if you've got another problem unrelated to the yeast???

Norm

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 10:19:00 EST
From: "Pamela J. Day 7560" <DAY at A1.TCH.HARVARD.EDU>
Subject: Get a life!

To those of you have been bashing anyone and everyone that you don't
agree with, I really thought that this was supposed to be a 
constructive and informative forum on Homebrewing. Jim Koch is not,
I repeat not a homebrewer, he is a salesman. Frankly, I'm almost as tired
of reading all this "venting" on the Digest as I am of hearing Koch's
commercials on the radio, but I'm not calling for a boycott of the
digest. Why don't you all stop whining out inane opinions and get
back on track and talk about brewing! Most of us out here seem to
be seeking advice and are not out to stroke our own egos by flaming 
those we don't agree with. If you don't agree with someone, offer a
polite, constructive and well-thought alternative. Enough mothering,
let's get back to brewing.

Remember, PLAY NICE!

Pam Day


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 10:15:20 EST
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: chiller break in

Assuming you made an Immersion chiller:
The only thing you need to do is ensure ther are no machine oils on the out 
side.  When I made an immersion chiller.  I soaked it in a bucket full of hot 
water and lots of dish soap, dish soap cuts through oil.  I rinsed it off
and then soaked it in a bucket that I added vinegar to.  The thing came
out looking like a new penny.
When I brew:
After completing my sparge I drain my mash tun into a food grade bucket and 
add any extra acidified sparge water.  I soak the chiller in this the low PH
cleans off the metal.  I then put it in the boiling wort, this cause the boil
to subside, when the boil commences again I wait 3-5 minutes before running 
the water.  I also capture run off water in the base to my shop vac, in which
I have put my brew pot sitting on top of a couple bricks.  This reduces water 
use and reduces cooling time.    


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 11:24:57 EST
From: Mark Bunster <mbunster at hibbs.vcu.edu>
Subject: sam and wasted wort

* Chris>Your loss.  Although Koch may be a slime bag, he makes a decent
* Chris>product.
* 
*Yes, he makes decent beer.  But so do literally hundreds of good, decent people
* who avoid using the strong-arm tactics of the neighborhood bully to sell their
*product.  Of the hundreds of brewers attending this year's GABF, the BBC tmtmtm
* was the only one in violation of GABF marketing rules.  They were only allowed
* to attend because the GABF feared the threat of a lawsuit, which it certainly
* does not need.  So, why would you want to buy beer from these people?  You can
* buy good beer, better than Koch's, from good people.  I'm with Al on this one:
* 
* BOYCOTT SAM ADAMS PRODUCTS!!!

Please elucidate on the GABF situation. I always wondered how you could have
the "best beer", since I assumed there were about 500 zillion categories.
What exactly does it win?

Also, I see this thread an awful lot in music--ie, so and so "sold out."
The implication becomes that if you can get it anywhere, it must not be very
good, and the only thing that saves your own beer drinking ego is if you can
prove you know of some great obscure beer produced in a chicken shack by two
dwarf gypsy albino seamstresses with no arms that you can only get three days
of the year cause that's the only time they come to market with it.

Until I see evidence of slave labor, rats in the bottles, or use of a
counterflow chiller (just kidding Mr. Schmid), I need more proof before I
eschew dollar draft Sam's at my local pub.




* 
* >Would you eat a sandwich you dropped on the garage floor?
* 
why would anyone want to ferment a sandwich??

:-)

*     When I was ready to take the plunge to all-grain,
*     several friends talked me into going with the picnic
*     cooler setup.  I'm glad they did;  it's the closest you can
*     get to unattended brewing.  There is no worry about scorched
*     grain, stirring, etc.
* 
Can you describe this method further??


* Subject: Boiler siphoning
* 
* 
* I am leaving too much wort behind in my boiler after siphoning to
* primary fermenter.  I leave about .75 gal as a combination of what is
* held in the hops and what is left because the hop bed causes my siphon
* to "break".  I use a Sankey keg as a boiler.  It has a 1/2" pipe
* nipple coming in from the side and an elbow and nipple going down into
* the botto.  Over the nipple is a screen (1/8" grid) to keep out the
* whole hops.  When I let liquid out and there is no hops, then all but
* about 1/2 cup of liquid is removed.
* 
* 1)	How much liquid do you leave in your boiler including
* 	in the hop bed.
* 2)	Any suggestions, or do I just figure in the excess wort
* 	needed to be left behind?

Not to once again discount the folks who like to build stuff for their
brewing (not at all, really), but here's what we do:

1. Boil.
2. grab sanitized saucepan and sanitized strainer, common household kind.
3. fill saucepan with wort and lots of hops, pour into strainer.
4. fill saucepan with wort and as little hops as possible, pour into
strainer.
5. when strainer is full of hops, dump and repeat from #3 until pot is empty.

The whole hops do a really good job of straining everything else, like 
pieces of whole hops, pellets from perhaps a finishing, and some of your 
specialty malt grains. Just don't set either the saucepan or the strainer
down, to keep things clean. 

I'd say we waste about 6 oz of concentrated wort with this method. It takes
two people to work best, though. Maybe some of these machines are to help you
better brew alone, to which I say shame on you--find a friend to help. Cuts
costs, passes time better, spurs a perhaps previously unknown bond between
you. Or (gasp) maybe even try to involve your spouse! Brewing beer alone I
fear would make me pretty much a drunk.


- -- 
Mark Bunster                      |Exchange conversation if you dare-- 
Survey Research Lab--VCU          |Share an empty thought or a laugh.
Richmond, VA 23220                |
mbunster at hibbs.vcu.edu            |
(804) 367-8813/353-1731           |                          -edFROM


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 09:16:00 -0600
From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: PureSeal caps


In HBD 1279 Carl Howes wrote:

CH> what good is a PureSeal (tm) cap considering that it has been
  > shipped/stored in a 20 percent oxygen atmosphere for some
  > indeterminite period before use?

According to the instructions from the manufacturer, the caps are 
moisture activated. They should not be boiled, but rather rinsed 
with sanitizing solution and used immediately. If you're real gutsy 
you can just use them without sanitizing and give your bottle one 
quick shake after capping to let the beer do the activation.

Chuck

 * RM 1.2 00946 * 

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 13:00:26 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Tannin extraction

To my comment:
> >  I know he's only baiting us, but I feel like a sucker this morning.
> The mash has a buffering effect, yes.  As the goodies are drawn off,
> however, the pH does rise.  This is quite variable....

Jack rebuts:
> Indeed it is and makes it clear that I wasn't baiting anyone and the rest of
> your response makes a mockery of all the absolute dogma that has been
> pronounced on the subject.  Every situation is different and brewers must
> either know exactly what conditions prevail or experiment to find out what
> works best.

	Ahem.  Absolute dogma?  Now who has been spouting that?  I agree, 
and state in my post that situations are different for different brewers.  
Jack, on the other hand, has said to (I paraphrase) "ignore the experts and  
do it my way," without reference to the fact that it may be fluke that his 
way works.  Agreed, as many options should be expressed as possible, but an 
explanation, caveat, disclaimer, whatever should be included if known.

> >It does indicate, however, that your pH is rising, and soon will reach a
> level that will extract noticeable quantities of tannins from the husks.
>
> Rising, yes.. but "soon"?  How can you possibly know that without knowing the
> water chemestry and that of the mash?   And what magic level "extracts
> noticeable quantities of tannins"?  What if I don't reach that level till the
> last pint of sparge water?

	Excuse my brevity.  Read: "Tannins are extracted to a greater 
degree the more the pH of the mash rises above 5.3, and if unchecked this 
rise will lead to astringent flavours.  This rise is dependant on water 
chemistry, ingredients and techniques."  There is no "Magic level".  It is 
a gradual process, but cumulative.

> >  In the decotion mash, you have a thick mash which has not had
> the sugars and acids removed, so the pH stays low.  Where's the problem?
>
> I believe I was the one who suggested that there is no problem.

	You suggested there was no problem with the sparge, and argued it 
by asking why tannins were not extracted during a decoction.

____________   
Ed Hitchcock	ech at ac.dal.ca	| Oxymoron:  Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology		| Pleonasm:  Draft beer on tap.     |
Dalhousie University, Halifax	|___________________________________|


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 12:23:42 EST
From: dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE)
Subject: yeast wash

          Can someeone clarify for me:
          
          The "yeast.faq" describes the process of washing yeast. You 
          pour the sterile water into the carboy, slosh, and pour it 
          back into the jar. Then you "agitate the jar to allow 
          separation of the components. Continue to agitate 
          periodically until obvious separation is noticeable."
          
          This step doesn't seem to work. The more I agitate, the more 
          homogeneous the stuff becomes. Can someone elaborate. Does 
          the yeast stay in suspension and everything that settles is 
          trub? (It looks like the yeast settles too, no? Or did I 
          just wait too long?) I was doing lager yeast--is that maybe 
          different from aleyeast? Is the sterile water separate from 
          the yeast?
          
          Tanks,
          Ron Dwelle (dweller at gvsu.edu)
          "Ninety-Nine Bottle of Beer on the Floor."

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 10:30:37 -0800 (PST)
From: davep at cirrus.com (David Pike)
Subject: Glatt malt mill users

Ok, all you Glatt malt mill users,
please email me directly with your satisfaction rating for this mill. Its
time to give my list to Santa and this may make the final cut.

Cheers,

Dave


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 10:43:51 -0500
From: jeclark at ucdavis.edu (James Clark)
Subject: "beer" adds

I know this has nothing to do with homebrewing, but neither does the Sam
Adams debate that is ravaging this list right now.  This is just to vent my
frustration:

I am getting a little disgusted with commercials for mega-swill "beers"
that are humorous but that have absolutely nothing to do with the beer
itself.  I mean,  a few years ago they would at least take a five second
breather from the funnies to show a glass with some pale yellow liquid in
it, and actually say something about the swill.  now they don't even do
that.  I doubt very seriously that anyone who is on this list drinks bud
light, but there has to be something else we can do besides just avoiding
the stuff.  I just don't think it's fair that these corporations have so
much power.

- --james

p.s.  maybe I should just avoid all forms of media so that I don't get so
annoyed about this.


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 11:30:59 -0500 (EST)
From: gelinas at ekman.unh.edu (Russell Gelinas)
Subject: new chiller, SA

  A great way to clean a new immersion chiller is to boil it in a
solution of vineger and water.  About '*this much* vinegar should
do it :-).  The chiller will come out shiny.

  As for Jim Koch/Sam Adams, we boycotters realize he makes a good beer,
that he's allowed some credit for the microbrewing boom, and he
personally is probably not really a slimeball.  But his marketing
tactics are obnoxious, harmful to the Boston brewing climate, and
ultimately unnecessary.  Personally, I don't much care if he wants 
to spend his money on advertising, though I would appreciate a little
more truthfulness.  What irks me is when he uses his money to hire lawyers 
for copywrite lawsuits, etc., forcing other breweries to use *their* money 
to fend him off.  He would have my $$ to brew and advertise, he won't
get it to run down other breweries.

Russ Gelinas
eos
unh


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 10:53:35 PST
From: Mark Garetz <mgaretz at hoptech.com>
Subject: Anchor "clarifications"

Glen A. Wagnecz writes (in response to my post about Anchor's Fritz
Maytag's claims that dry-hopped beers last longer):

>	Have these beers that last this long been carbonated via
>priming or forced carbonated?  I was under the impression that beers
>that are carb'd via priming last only about 2-3 months, due to the
>presence of the spent yeast sediment in the bottle.  Please "clarify"
>whether these long lasting beers were primed or forced and other
>necessary specifics.

	>		Thanks In Advance-

>				Glen

>P.S. Thanks for the catalog, are the '93 whole hops in yet?
	
I don't know how the original Liberty/Christmas Ales were carbonated, 
but all of Anchor's current products are "naturally carbonated" which
they do by sealing their secondary fermentation stage so the CO2 goes
into solution instead of escaping to the atmosphere.  I don't believed
they are "krausened" with gyle, just sealed up at the appropriate time
in fermentation.  The beers are all centrifuged to remove the yeast and
then flash pasteurized on the way to bottling.  BTW, the very first,
and only, Liberty/Christmas/Anchor Ale was made with sugar as well as
malt, because "that's the way the Brits did it."

I have heard that the presence of yeast in the bottle also tends to
help the beer keep.  I have some one-year old SNPA that is still fine.

We are shipping some '93 now and will have it all available in a few
weeks.  Please call for details as this is not the politically correct
place to post details.

Mark

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Date: 	Tue, 23 Nov 1993 11:39:00 PST
From: Patrick_Waara.WBST129 at xerox.com
Subject: Metallic/Mineral Flavor

Hi,

The last two batches of beer I've made have had an unpleasant (but not
undrinkable) metallic/mineral flavor.  You can taste it on the back of your
tongue and on the roof of your mouth.  Both of these beers are a darker variety
(a brown ale and a stout).  I have only had this happen two other times in the
nearly 100 or so batches I have made, and I cannot figure out what could have
caused it.  The first two times it happened (over two years ago), I blamed it
on adding Bourton Salts or Gypsum to my water.  I stopped adding anything to my
water and the flavor did not reappear until now.  The only difference in these
batches and identical sucessful batches is that I used Wyeast liquid ale yeast
instead of Whitbread dry ale yeast.  I used the Irish ale yeast for the stout
and London Ale yeast for the brown ale.  I have use other Wyeast varieties with
no problems whatsoever.

Can anyone tell me what may have caused this metallic/mineral flavor in these
batches?  Is there some specific thing that can cause this flavor?  It isn't
just a characteristic of these yeasts, is it?

If possible, please respond by mail to Waara.wbst129 at xerox.com.  I have been
having difficulty keeping up with the digests lately, so please excuse me if
this has been discussed recently.

~Pat

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 14:58:11 EST
From: rowan at landfill.rutgers.edu (Andy Rowan)
Subject: howto siphon hot wort

OK, first the preliminaries.  I'm talking about extract brewing, so
keep in mind the restrictions: lazy, uninformed, etc.

Having heard all the hullabaloo about hot side aeration, I want to avoid
it.  Up until now I pour from the kettle, through a funnel, into the carboy
which has 3gal cold water in it.  So siphoning instead of pouring seemed 
like a simple solution.  So I tried a couple of stupid ideas, which didn't
work, and now I'm looking for better ideas.

I did my last batch with pellet hops, so I wanted to keep the crud from going
into the carboy.  So I stuck some cheesecloth over the end of the hose
but it slowed the flow so much that I couldn't keep the siphon going.
I guess the pot scrubber idea is worth trying, but will the hop crudge pass
through it?  And how do you keep it on there?

Has anyone come up with a nifty-neato design for something to do this?
Something like a metal tube with a little screen doohickey on the end?

Not being a welder, I don't really want to make a hole in my kettle and 
install a spigot so I don't have to siphon...

Andy

==================================================
| Andy Rowan                                     |
| Center for Remote Sensing and Spatial Analysis |
| Rutgers University, New Brunswick NJ USA       |
| rowan at ocean.rutgers.edu                        |
==================================================
"Is the glass half empty or half full?"
 I ask her as I fill it.

"It doesn't really matter,
 pretty soon you're bound to spill it."

- --Indigo Girls

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 15:07:14 "EST
From: Gary S. Kuyat <gsk at sagan.bellcore.com>
Subject: Lovibond
Full-Name: Gary S. Kuyat

I remember reading that there was some formula or chart describing how to
mix Michalob (sp?) and water to get x degrees Lovibond.  True or False?  This
probably belongs in a FAQ...  If nobody knows, are there any books with
pictures?
- --
 -Gary Kuyat
  gsk at sagan.bellcore.com
  (908)699-8422

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 13:25:42 MDT
From: Trever Miller <amby at wooga.cuc.ab.ca>
Subject: Tarpit Stout && Can we repitch with champagne yeast in secondary?


    Here's something we started the other day... questions
    follow at the end.... -- BUG
 
        ===================================================

	Ye Olde Tarpit Stout 
	
	(Brewed on November 21 1993 by Ambush Bug and Satanic Garden Rake)

	Ingredients:

	Munton & Fison Dark-hopped Malt Extract (3.3 pounds)
	Munton & Fison 3 pound Stout Kit
	4.5 pounds blackstrap molasses (About 60% sucrose and 40% flavoring
	extracts) 
	25 grams of Fuggles leaf hops
	a pinch of cinnamon (Just a _pinch_!  Or, Mr. Bug's idea of a "pinch".
	Ie., a small handful)


	Destructions:

	Over a period of about an hour's worth of boiling, the following
	were added:

	Brew pot 1: (Bug's pot)
	Bring 2.5 gallons water to boil
	dump in stout kit
	stir
	dump in 5 grams leaf hops
	stir
	dump in dark malt                  (15 min into boil)
	stir
	dump in 1/2 the rest leaf hops     (35 min into boil)
	stir

	Brew pot 2: (SGR's pot)
	Bring 1.5 gallon water to boil
	dump in 4.5 pounds molasses.  (NOTE:  _Not_ all at once.  Spread
	this out over about the first 1/2 hour of the boil.)
	stir
	dump in 5 grams leaf hops
	stir
	dump in 2 cups corn sugar  (40 min into boil)
	stir
	dump in remaining hops     (45 min into boil)
	stir


	BOIL THE HELL OUT OF IT! (Specifically, about an hour or so.)


	Dump contents of brew pots into primary fermenter.  Stir.  Pad volume with
boiling water to 5 gallons.  Cool down.  Pitch.  GO YEASTIES!!
	

NOTES:

	November 22, 1993

	4 1/2 pounds of blackstrap molasses may actually have been a tad
excessive.  (This was the thickest, darkest wort I've ever seen on ANY
homebrew.)  That actually makes quite a hefty portion of the total
fermentables, like about 35% or so.  That in itself wouldn't be bad, but
the molasses in that quantity may prove to have a _really_ overpowering
flavor.  You can smell the wort from outside the door of our apartment. 
It may have been better to go with lighter molasses, or less of it.

	(Mind you, that may turn out to be a _good_ thing.  I dunno.  I'll
have to sample some when we transfer it to the carboy.  I have a feeling
that once the yeasties finish munching on this one, we may be kicking on
some barley wines for strength.) -- SGR

[Also, we didn't bother to borrow a hydrometer... My guess is we can
eyeball it for when it's time to transfer to secondary etc. -- BUG]
		

 November 23, 1993
 
   We have a good fermentation going... approx a 6" head of nice brown foam
 and the hop leaves.   -- BUG

        ===================================================

Query : We pitched the dry yeast that came with the stout kit.  We were
        wondering how one would go about pitching some sort of champagne
        yeast upon transfer to the secondary.  We've already got just
        over 23 litres in the primary, and don't want to add any more
        volume than necessary (won't fit in secondary....).
 
        If we just pitched in one or two packets of dry champagne yeast
        into it upon transfer to secondary, what's going to happen?
        Will the original yeast be too numerous for the new ones to 
        get a foothold?  -- BUG

- -- 
millertr at cuug.ab.ca (Preferred)        Snail Mail: #557, 918 - 16 Ave NW
      or                                           Calgary, Alberta T2M 0K3 
ambush_bug at wooga.cuc.ab.ca

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 12:35:21 PST
From: pickerel at micom.com (Don Pickerel  at  Micom.com)
Subject: Mail Order

A public thanks to everyone that took the time to send me info
on mail order supplies. I guess the picture of a fellow brewer
going dry was a scary thought.
I've put the replies together into a list if anyone else is
interested, though it would be nice if it got into an FAQ (
hint).

Also, one of the most recommended places was St. Patrick's of
Texas
in Austin. While talking to Lynne she said she could read e-mail
but
not get anything out, so if there are any volunteers in that
region....
I would offer but it's kind of hard to trouble shoot from S.
Cal.
I will offer any advice I can.

Again thanks.

pickerel at micom.com

- --
 -Don-

- ----
 -Don-


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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 16:06:13 -0600
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: Kegging FAQ

 I have begun work on a kegging FAQ and I will need a few knowledegable 
 contributors and reviewers to help me.  I mean to cover a pretty wide
 range of topics that will include bottle conditioning.  I am especially
 looking for chemists, physicists, cellarmen, and biologists to contribute
 to and review certain parts of the FAQ.  I plan to develop the FAQ over a
 period of several weeks, but I do expect to make progress.  I am also
 interested in submitting the FAQ to _Brewing Techniques_ for publication.
 I do not plan to post every iteration of the FAQ to the two Internet
 Digests.

 A proposed outline is below.

 	t
=============================================================================
Tom Leith                           InterNet:   trl at wuerl.WUstl.EDU
4434 Dewey Ave.                   CompuServe:   70441,3536
St. Louis, Missouri  63116
                                                 "Tho' I could not caution all
314/362-6965 - Office                            I still might warn a few:
314/362-6971 - Office Fax                        Don't lend your hand
314/481-2512 - Home + Infernal Machine           to raise no flag
                                                 atop no Ship of Fools"
=============================================================================


 I) Kegging Procedures and Equipment

 	a) Introduction
 		i)   Kegging vs. Cask Conditioning vs. Bottle Conditioning,
 		     What Does It Mean, and How Does It Taste?
 		ii)  What's the Same wrt Bottling
 		iii) What's Different wrt Bottling
 	b) Carbonation
 		i)   Carbonation Levels
 		ii)  What's Meant by "Volumes"
 		iii) Chemistry & Physics of Carbonation
 		     Include ideal gas law, and equations
 		iv)  Practical Application of Principles
 		     Include tables generated from iii
 	c) Equipment
 		i)   Kegs
 		ii)  CO2 Tanks
 		iii) Pressure Regulators
 		iv)  Dispensing Equipment
 		v)   Referigerators and Controls
 		vi)  Filters and Such
 	d) Putting Product into Kegs
 		i)    Sanitation
 		ii)   Transfer from Carboy
 		iii)  Transfer from Another Keg
 		iv)   Filtering
 	e) Dispensing
 		i)   Maintaining Carbonation
 		ii)  Maintaining Sanitation
 		iii) From Keg to Glass
 		iv)  Troubleshooting
 	f) Cask Conditioning
 		i)   Introduction
 		ii)  Procedures
 		iii) Dispensing Equipment
 		iv)  Troubleshooting
 	g) Equipment Suppliers
 	h) References

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Date: 	Tue, 23 Nov 1993 17:00:20 -0500
From: Larry Atkinson <atkinson at cae33.Mitel.COM>

Subject: Used Brewery Kegs

I was walking around the local flea market last weekend and came across
an old Labatts brewery keg (labelled 1987). The size looked like the 
standard 66L (15.5 gal) keg, but instead of a single fitting on top
for both C02 and beer tap, this one had two circular fittings, one
on the top, presumably for CO2 and another on the side near the bottom
probably for a tap.  On the side about halfway up was a bung.  Here's
the catch. Neither CO2 or tap connection had any hardware connected to it.
Does anyone out there in homebrew land know anthing about this type of keg
especially if and where you can buy the attachments?
 
I am presently kegging with one 5 gal. pop keg, but up here in Canada
even the used Cornelius kegs go for $80 Cdn ($65 US), so I would hate
to pass up a bargain if the Labatts keg is useable.  Any thoughts or
comments are welcomed.

On a related note, I tried calling Defalcos in Texas about kegs, but
got the same response as another recent poster, that they will not ship
these anymore.  Seems that UPS is just too much of a pain for them.
Does anyone know of an alternate source in the Northern New York area.
Ottawa is only 1 hr from the New York border (and ~3 hrs from Syracuse)
so I figure that a Saturday day trip is not out of the question.

Thanks,


Larry Atkinson

atkinson at cae.mitel.com

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 16:54:38 -0600
From: trl at photos.wustl.edu (Tom Leith MIR/ERL 362-6965)
Subject: kegging pressures

Last week, there was a kegging question, that I fired a from-the-hip answer 
to.  The concepts were OK, but I got a constant wrong.  Here is the table of 
values I really used when designing my dispensing system.  This will end-up in 
the kegging FAQ, but I promised it sooner than that 8-)

	t



Resistance Data - Source: Standard-Keil Catalog
- ----------+----------------------------------------------------
          |	   pounds of resistance per running foot
inside    |
diameter  |       Vinyl	    Polyethylene    Stainless Steel
- ----------+----------------------------------------------------
3/16"     |        2.20		2.20            -----
1/4"      |         .60		 .60		2.00
5/16"     |         .20		 .20		 .50
3/8"      |         .10          .064		 .20
- ----------+----------------------------------------------------

Two feet of vertical lift provides 1 pound of resistance
Two feet of vertical drop adds 1 pound of apparent pressure,
    ie: requires 1 pound additional resistance
Proper flow-rate is two ounces/second at the faucet

The goal: match the resistance of the dispensing line to the pressure 
in the keg.  Pressure at the faucet should be very nearly zero.  So,
if your beer is stored under 14 PSIG, and your faucet is 18" above
the center of your keg:

	 3/4# resistance due to vertical rise
       1#     resistance due to miscellaneous fittings
      12-1/4# resistance due to 5'7" 3/16" vinyl beer line
     --------
      14 PSI




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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 1993 21:54:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: WESTEMEIER at delphi.com
Subject: Rauchbier aroma

My personal specialty is a Bamberg-style rauchbier.  The smoke flavor is
something I really enjoy and I always get great comments on it whenever
I make a batch.  My technique is very simple.  I use an ordinary
backyard smoker.  I get the grain slightly damp, smoke it over wood
chips for an hour or so, then let it dry for a few days.  After that, I
mash and brew normally.  Experimentation has shown that the Wyeast
Bavarian Lager yeast works best, and smoking between one-half and
three-quarters of the grain provides the right level of smokiness.
 
My problem is that although the smoke comes through wonderfully well in
the flavor, my beer is always eliminated in competitions because the
smoke is so subtle in the aroma that it's not in the same league with
the winners.
 
I have tasted some of the winners at competitions in this category, and
they generally smell and taste like the brewery was burning down around
the batch as it was brewed.  What am I not doing right?
 
Short of using some sort of "liquid smoke" solution (which I absolutely
refuse to try), is there some trick to get the smoke aroma to express
itself more strongly?
 
Any suggestions would be welcome.
 
Ed Westemeier, Cincinnati, Ohio westemeier at delphi.com

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 16:50:00 +0800
From: rob.skinner at kandy.com (Rob Skinner)
Subject: calcium chloride


     I found that a good source for calcium chloride, lactic acid,
     and any many chemicals needed for various experimentation is
     Chem-Lab Supplies at (714) 630-7902.  Their price for lactic
     acid is $8.75 for 4oz.  Calcium chloride runs $6 for 16 oz.

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 12:12 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Hops as preservatives/Dryhopping problem/Brown Ale yeast/dark mash

Mark writes:
>Actually there are studies that show that hop oils (responsible for the
>aroma) do have a preservative effect and do inhibit the growth of
>bacteria.

Interesting.

>And for an informal opinion, Fritz Maytag strongly believes
>that dry-hopped beers last much longer (like 10-20 years) than beers that
>are not dry hopped.  He bases this on tasting his Christmas Ales from 
>many years ago (that he has in his own collection and that people send
>to him).  He claims that a 17 year old Christmas Ale he tasted was still
>quite good, but he admits it is not exactly the same as when it was brewed,
>but certainly not spoiled.

I don't believe this is a valid datapoint.  I contend that Christmas Ales
are often much higher in alcohol and that may skew this data.

>Also historical data shows that IPAs (the
>real ones destined for India by boat) were called for (by contract) to have
>a high dry hopping level ("2 lbs of Kent hops per hogshead" which translates
>to 2.47 ozs per five gallons).

You fail to mention that they had bittering hop rates that would translate
to IBUs in the vicinity of 200.  High dryhopping levels may just have
been required so that there is some hop nose in the final product.  Recall
that these were wooden kegs and that oxygen is known to kill hop nose.

I don't disagree with the initial premise, but the last two examples I feel
are not good supporting arguments.

************
Drew writes:
>  This morning, I took gravity readings and tasted both sub-batches.
>The non-dryhopped bottle was at 1.024, crystal clear, and tasted
>great.  The dry hopped batch was at 1.014, cloudy, and astringent, and
>I can only assume, infected.  There are three possiblities that I see:
> 
>1) unclean equipment used in the dry hopped sub batch - Very Unlikely
> 
>2) bacteria carried on hops into the beer - ???
> 
>3) Excessive handling with bare hands introduced bacteria into dry
>   hopped batch - very likely
 
I think it may have been 1, 2 or 3, but more likely not bacterial, but
rather wild yeast, and most likely (IMO) the mesh bag.  I, personally,
feel that they are difficult to sanitize well and diffucult to clean well
after use.

*************
George L writes:
>Does anyone know whether British Ale Yeast is the most appropriate liquid
>yeast for brewing Northern style Brown Ales?

It would be appropriate, but if you like diacetyl (butterscotch) you may
want to consider using Wyeast Irish (#1084).  The British is reportedly
the Whitbread triple-strain yeast (with nice, tart overtones), whereas the
Irish Ale is allegedly the Guinness yeast.  I think that either of these 
yeasts are a good choice for a Northern-style Brown Ale.

************
Mark A writes:
1) I brewed a porter because my water is high in bicarbs and I didn't
   want to worry about messing around with my water too much.
   Since Noonan and Miller and just about everyone else says that a 
   dark mash has a higher p.h. I assume that they mean that I should
   add the dark grains to the mash at mash in.  Otherwise, I will have
   a mash which is the same as a pale ale mash and will have p.h.
   problems.  Is this not correct?

You got everything right except switched the high-low pH deal.  Dark grains
acidify your mash, i.e. LOWER pH, so if you have high carbonate water, you
do want to add the dark grains in the mash.

>   gotten conversion.  So, how do you check for conversion of a dark mash?
 
You place a drop of mash liquid and a drop of iodine next to each other on
a white plate and then carefully watch as you run one into the other.  It's
not easy to spot color change due to starch/dextrins, but you'll get the hang
of it.

>   according to miller it seems that I should do the following:
>   
>       Degrees = (1.061 * 4.25)/10 = .45
> 
>  since my total grain bill came to 10 lbs (8 lbs pale malt) and I
>  was only left with 4.25 gal.

You should leave off the water (1.000) when you do this:

	Points = (61 * 4.25)/10 = 25.92

Basically, 26 points/lb/gal.  Not bad -- I would say a decent extraction is
between 25 and 30.

Al.

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Date: Tue, 23 Nov 93 13:27 CST
From: korz at iepubj.att.com
Subject: Crabtree/sterols/peroxide

Ulick writes:
>I have one question.  Al mentioned that the Crabtree effect will occur if
>monosaccharides predominate.  Is this true for fructose, and if so what

Yes.  If fructose + glucose levels are above a certain level (0.5% I believe)
the yeast will have a tendancy to go into anaerobic fermentation (Crabtree
effect) also.  Note that if Oxygen levels are VERY high (sorry, don't have
my books here) the Pasteur effect can force the yeast to go into respiration.
It is my understanding (from discussions with George Fix) that in a high
monosaccharide, high-O2 environment, the Crabtree and Pasteur effects are
in contention -- I must admit I don't really know all there is to know
about this.

>happens when sucrose is present?  Would the sucrose become invert (fructose
>and glucose) if added to the slightly acid beer as a bottling sugar, or
>would the repiration phase be intiated as in the case of maltose or

Sucrose is converted to a glucose and a fructose pair by the enzyme invertase
which is excreted by the yeast.

BTW, I read somewhere, that sucrose has twice the carbonating potential of
corn sugar (dextrose, glucose), but have never seen it anywhere else.  I
don't think this is true.  Anyone know for sure?

*************
Somone (sorry) asked about sterol synthesis.

I believe the sterols are used in building the cell walls.  Poorly oxygenated
wort is said to reduce the yeast's alcohol tolerance and this may be
related to the sterol synthesis.

************
Fisher writes:
>A good friend of mine works in the food processing industry, and he
>says that I should use hydrogen peroxide to sanitize, like the food
>pros do.  Is this a good idea?  I am not motivated to change, but he
>won't leave me alone without a rebuttal.

You can use B-Brite or One-Step Sanitizer.  They are peroxide-based.
The active ingredient in both is Sodium Percarbonate, which (if I
understand correctly) is sort of like Sodium Carbonate (washing soda)
and Hydrogen Peroxide when it is mixed with water.

Al.

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1280, 11/24/93