FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  SPARKLING WINE (aaron.banerjee)
  Re: Whitbread yeast (1098) (CCASTELL)
  pride & clean bottles (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Pots for Brewing (GNT_TOX_)
  clarification, priming (Mark Francisco 3811 )
  Re: Carastan (Timothy J. Dalton)
  Handling Charges / Keg Cleaning (Robert H. Reed)
  cleaning kegs (Russell Gelinas)
  Brewpubs, and other pipe dreams... (Bill Othon.LinCom)
  Carapils (Michael Inglis)
  Propane/Natural Gas convers ("Rad Equipment")
  Summary of responses to Insufficient head problem (Earle M. Williams)
  Copper Electroplating ("Palmer.John")
  Off flavors in Kegs (Geoff Reeves)
  Bottle Inspection Comments (Geoff Reeves)
  HopTech shipping (Lee=A.=Menegoni)
  Making a Belgian White Ale.... ("J. Andrew Patrick")
  Slotted Copper/Step Mash/Miscellany (npyle)
  test (Peter Ferrara)
  mosaic site for hbd? (George Tempel)
  Re: 5 Liter Mini Kegs (Josh Stillerman)
  A-B Boycott/Budweiser (David P. Atkins)
  Evaluating Beer w/ Jim Koch (Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name)
  Heileman Brew. Co Beerwatch (David P. Atkins)
  High malt glucose syrup, etc. (Alec Saunders)
  hoppy whatever (George Tempel)
  Seltzer Carbonators (Art Steinmetz)
  Weissbier (Art Steinmetz)
  Fixed Kettle Thermometers (Will B. Blalock)
  Bulk hop purchasing (WESTEMEIER)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 21 Dec 93 23:50:23 
From: aaron.banerjee at his.com
Subject: SPARKLING WINE


Is anyone out there making champagne for New Years? 
  
I have been making beer in champagne bottles for a few years, and have
yet to have a single explosion.  Somehow, my champagne, on the other
hand, seems to either be flat or explosive.  The method of pressurizing I use
is to bottle early, or add a small amount of sugar (as opposed to CO2
cartridges--that's cheating).  My Christmas ale turned out fine, but I'll bet
it doesn't compare to some of the others...
 
If anyone's making sparkling wine, and bottles without CO2, contact me
directly at:
  
INTERNET:    aaron.banerjee at his.com
  
FidoNet:     Aaron Banerjee
             1:109/421
  
Thanks.

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Date: Tue, 21 Dec 93 11:24
From: CCASTELL.UNIX11 at mailsrv2.eldec.com (CCASTELL)
Subject: Re: Whitbread yeast (1098)

I tried to mail this out on 12/17.  Unfortunately, our mailer is down
about 50% of the time, so access to the outside world is limited.  If
this posting appears twice (probably on different days), I apologize.
You never know when a mailing actually makes it to the outside world.


Al writes (HOMEBREW Digest #1299):
> 3. mixed yeasts (the Whitbread triple-strain (Wyeast #1098) has been
reported
> to have a slowdown in the middle of the ferment, for example), and ...

Russ responds (HOMEBREW Digest #1300):

> Was it ever settled if Wyeast 1098 has the 3 strains of Whitbread yeast
> or just 1 of the strains?  ...

Looking at my notes from Dave Logsdon's talk, "Matching Yeasts to Beer
Styles" at this summer's convention, Dave stated that 1098 was a single
strain.  He said that they were working on multiple strain yeasts that
would be out soon.  (Are any of the new varieties multiple strains?)

He also had a couple of other interesting points that I'll throw out here.
He claimed that numerous studies have shown that dry yeast does not give
you a faster start than liquid.  The foaming and gas production is a
byproduct of the rehydration and is not actual growth.  Neither form
of yeast reaches exponential growth for about 12 hours.

Someone asked about repitching yeast from the secondary.  Dave said that
yeast should be taken from both the primary and the secondary, or you'll
risk ending up with a yeast with different characteristics.  His point
was that a certain component of the yeast may "do its thing" early and
drop out of suspension early and not make it to the secondary.  Without
this component, the yeast repitched from the secondary may have different
characteristics.

Charlie
//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//
// ccastell at eldec.com  //  Charles Castellow //
//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//-//



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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 04:21:14 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: pride & clean bottles

I was recently accused of submitting beer to contests because I'm
proud of it.  (I know I'm paraphrasing to make a point, so don't flame
too hard, ok?)  Well, certainly, there's some of that.  I don't
generally submit swill.  (I inflict that on local brewclub members,
instead. :-)

But what I was getting at was this: any beer I send to a competition
is SOMETHING I MADE.  It's therefore a LITTLE PART OF ME, and the
presentation REFLECTS ON ME.  If I send a grungy bottle, that's as
good as saying I'M A GRUNGY PERSON.  (Sure, sometimes, but not usually
in public.)  Not to mention the implicit message it sends to the
judges: "I didn't have the 5 minutes it would take to clean up this
bottle, but I expect you to give the beer in it a thorough evaluation
anyway."

Someone else complained about how hard it is to clean bottles just to
send in beer to a competition.  My heart bleeds.  Plan ahead.  Soak
the bottle for a day or two.  I have yet to find a label that doesn't
fall off of its own accord if you soak it long enough.

The last competition I judged, 5 judges decided for one reason or
another not to show up.  The rest of us spent 6 hours, judging 2
flights (typically >10 beers) each (and then the 6 of us who had any
stamina left mass-judged the 8 beers in the barleywine category).  And
you can't spend 5 minutes cleaning your bottle.  Foo.

So, if it's such a painful experience, why do I judge?  Foremost,
probably because it helps me improve my own brewing and my
appreciation of good beer.  Also, I'm giving something back to the
brewing community.  And, when you hit that one perfect beer of the
competition, it's worth all the infected ones.  And, it's fun (at
least for the first 10 or so:-).

=Spencer

P.S. Does any of this relate to the discussion about "language" in the HBD?

PPS I'll be on vacation, reading HBD only sporadically, until the new
year.  If I don't respond to your counter-flames, that's probably why.
(And cows can fly:-)

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Date:     Wed, 22 Dec 93 07:53 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  Pots for Brewing

To continue on with the brewpot thread....

Can anyone see any problems with using a teflon coated brewpot, if
they exists in sizes as big as 8 gallons?

Andy Pastuszak


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 07:54:32 -0500
From: franco at astro.ge.com (Mark Francisco 3811 )
Subject: clarification, priming

Two questions from an amateur homebrewer.
I have made a amber ale and it is wonderful, though cloudy.  What is
a recommended clarification process?
I am no longer using corn sugar but malt in the brewing process but
still am when priming.  I notice the brew still has a cider flavor.  Is
there an alternative to corn sugar for priming and/or am I using too much?

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 08:20:10 -0500
From: Timothy J. Dalton <dalton at mtl.mit.edu>
Subject: Re: Carastan

cmryglot at disney.CV.COM (Chuck Mryglot X6024) writes:

> Can someone please tell me what carastan malt. I have not
> seen it in the HBshop I frequent but have seen it
> mentioned here and in recipies.   Also, some recipies call
> out light and dark crystal.   What is the color guideline
> for 'light' and 'dark'.

Here's a section of an article that I wrote for "The Brewprint" - 
the Newsletter of the Boston Wort Processors.

  	Wort Processor and brewmaster at the Ould Newbury Brewing
    Co., Joe Rolfe, has donated a 25 Kg sack of carastan malt from maltsters
    Hugh Baird in England to the club.  

	What is carastan malt ???  An essay by George Fix in the January
    1993 Brewprint provides some clues.  Here's a brief synopsis.

	Carastan malt is produced by roasting "green malt."  It is
    enzymaticaly inactive.  The roasted "green malts" produced by HB are
    subdivided into four categories:

	light carastan		13-17 L
	carastan		30-40 L
	crystal			70-80 L
	dark crystal		100-160L

	For this particular malt, Joe has supplied some specific information. 
    First, he says that it is dextrinous.  The color is 32.8 L, it has a
    fermentable extract of 71.1% and a moisture content of 8.8%. 

Hope that helps,

	Tim

- ----
Timothy J. Dalton                                   tjdalton at mit.edu
MIT, Dept. of Chemical Engineering, Materials Etching Technology Lab
***** Searchlight Casting for Faults in the Clouds of Delusion *****   

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 09:44:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Robert H. Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Handling Charges / Keg Cleaning

Gary writes regarding Hoptech's handling fees:
> 
> 
> Total weight for this order < 1lb.  Being somewhat familiar
> with shipping costs, I asked for UPS BLUE (second day).  When I received
> the package I was billed $9.75 in shipping and handling on a $12 product
> order!  I called the company and was told that a $4 "handling" fee was
> charged to me since my order was < $30.  This is something that folks
> should know!  The extracts taste fine, but Hoptech's rediculous S&H fees
> left a bitter taste in my mouth...

I agree that adding handling fees to orders in not 
appropriate: I think many suppliers do this so that their prices seem 
lower than they actually are.  I believe a customer should pay for
the cost of the product and actual shipping fees and any SPECIAL
packing or shipping e.g., special packing for glass or overnight air
shipment.  IMO, filling an order, packing a box, and getting it to
UPS/RPS or the Post Office is *part of the cost of doing business*.

Most suppliers list these costs in their catalog or other literature
and I agree with Gary: let the buyer beware.  The reality of shipping
is that there is a minimum charge for a package and the shipping cost
increases nonlinearly with increased weight.  I think a more ethical
practice is to charge only for shipping.  If small orders are a
hassle, then offer an incentive for larger orders i.e., free shipping 
rather than penalize the customer for small orders.


With regard to Phil's problem with keg infection:

>         Let me say that I clean every keg before reuse and that
> I sanitize them by filling them with an Idophor solution for about
> 20 minutes before re-kegging. I even push in the little stopper at
> the top of the fill tube to release air and get solution up the
> tube.
>         But I'll admit I have never ripped these kegs appart and
> pulled the little liquid and gas knobs appart. I was thinking of cleaning
> them in either an idophor or bleach solution. I know that bleach does
> bad things to stainless, but I would only soak them for about 20 minutes
> and then rinse.


I believe that Iodophor is more of a sterilant than a keg cleaning 
solution.  I recommend using TSP to clean soda kegs or kegs that have had
beer sitting in them w/o a CO2 cover.  I use 1/4C per gallon in *very hot*
water and let them soak for several hours, then rinse well.  If your keg
is visually clean and still has a soda or unpleasant odor, there is a
non-vanishing probability that your beer will pick up this odor/flavor.

Without initiating a veritable plethora of net traffic regarding the
socio-economic implications of o-ring/poppet valve replacement, I
suggest replacing the large o-ring, the diptube o-rings, the ball or
pin valve o-rings, and the poppet valves.  IMHO, rebuilding your kegs
is a good investment($5 to $6) and will increase your chances of 
making consistently great homebrew.  Isn't this what it's all about?

Rob Reed



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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 09:53:25 -0500 (EST)
From: gelinas at ekman.unh.edu (Russell Gelinas)
Subject: cleaning kegs

  Before I kegged a recent batch, I happened to take a look inside the 
long pick-up tube.  It looked less than clean.  So I took the ol' 
ubiquitous Q-tip and put it in the tube, and forced it through with
hot water.  The Q-tip came out dirty, and the tube was noticeably cleaner.
If you sanitize your kegs with boiling water, a dirty pickup tube may
not be a problem; the heat should kill most anything.  But if you use a
sanitizing solution, it may be more important to ensure that all parts
of the keg are clean before sanitizing.  Either way, it's small work
to clean the tube.

  Re. sanitizing solutions:  I've got a 5-gallon plastic bucket that I
keep filled with a strong, almost saturated, solution of B-Brite.  As 
long as I remember to tightly seal the cover, it remains active (ie. it 
is still very "slippery") for a long time (months).  I even store things 
such as rubber stoppers and plastic fermentation locks right in the bucket.

Russ Gelinas
eos
unh


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 09:09 CST
From: othon at ial7.jsc.nasa.gov (Bill Othon.LinCom)
Subject: Brewpubs, and other pipe dreams...

Several friends and I have been musing about what it would
take to start a brewpub, now that they are legal in Texas.
My main interest in this is to bring good beer to Texas, 
and to learn to brew on a bigger scale. I've brewed about 20, 
mainly partial-mash brews, and certainly dont feel like I 
(by myself) have the expertise to brew on a big scale.

Do you need a Masterbrewer to start, and if so where do you
find one? Should you start with extract brewing, or bite 
the bullet and do it right the first time; what are the cost
trade-offs with either method? Have any of you 
micro owners tried these "rent a brewmeister" folks who come 
out and show you the ropes for several weeks?

This is a bit tangential to most digest requests, so private
E-mail is suggested and welcome. Any insights, anecdotes, or 
war stories would be appreciated.

Thanks, and Merry Christmas.
 -Bill
                                            /\    |__|    /\
=====================================      /  \   |  |   /  \
Bill Othon <othon at ial7.jsc.nasa.gov>      /    ---|  |---    \
Orbital Mechanic                          \                  /
LinCom Corporation - Houston Division      \  /\/\    /\/\  /
(713) 483-1858                              \/    \  /    \/
                                                   \/

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 07:48:42 PST
From: mri10 at mfg.amdahl.com (Michael Inglis)
Subject: Carapils

I posted this to r.c.b with no response so I'm trying it here...

When should Carapils be added in the mashing process to obtain
the residual sweetness assosiated with the grain?  In the past
I have added it at mashout along with my Crystal but I'm not 
sure how effective this is.  I have heard two versions.  The first
being that there is no need to mash Carapils and the sweetness will
show up if the grain is treated as a specialty grain.  The second
version is that the grain needs to be mashed to get anything but
starch out of the grain.  Does anyone have the true story?

Mike Inglis
mri10 at mfg.amdahl.com

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Date: 22 Dec 1993 07:58:42 -0800
From: "Rad Equipment" <rad_equipment at rad-mac1.ucsf.edu>
Subject: Propane/Natural Gas convers

Subject:  Propane/Natural Gas conversions       Time:7:51 AM     Date:12/22/93
Happy Holidays All!

Would anyone with a good understanding of the dynamics of gas burners please
contact me via private e-mail. I'm working on converting burners from one gas
to another and would like to get a little education on how the orifice size,
regulator pressure, etc are determined. This may expand into an article, but
for now it is just research. Thanks in advance.

RW...

Russ Wigglesworth (INTERNET: Rad_Equipment at radmac1.ucsf.edu - CI$: 72300,61)
UCSF Dept. of Radiology, San Francisco, CA (415) 476-3668 / Home (707) 769-0425


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 9:25:21 MST
From: Earle M. Williams <earlew at drc.usbm.gov>
Subject: Summary of responses to Insufficient head problem


I posted an accounting of a recent problem where I noticed my Nut Brown Ale
(nicknamed Moonbeam after a famous California governor) would lose its head
immediately after being poured into the mug (from a bottle... I haven't kegged
in a while, but more on that later.)  I received several responses, some in
HBD and some private email.  Several suggestions were given, and I'll list
a few. 

Cause/Solution #1 - Soap residue in mug 
=======================================
>From: jim at n5ial.mythical.com (Jim Graham)
>Btw, just thought of something---this may be a bit on the obvious side,
>but then, I wouldn't have known it if someone here hadn't told me, so.....
>You're not using soap to wash your beer mugs, brewing equipment, etc.,
>are you?  If so, that's an instant head-killer.  Apparently, there's a
>residue left by the soap that's nearly impossible to get rid of.  I rinse
>my mugs out with a mild bleach/water solution every so often (I'm normally
>the only one using them---if anyone else is going to use them, they get
>bleached before and after no matter what).

Others had similar suggestions, and I'm sorry for not giving appropriate credit.

Cause/Solution #2 - Insufficent Carbonation
===========================================
>From ryptyde!mikel Mon Dec 13 14:40 MST 1993
>Head Problems:
>Two things you could try.  First, add more sugar at bottling time.  I've
>found 3/4 cup of corn sugar to be insufficient unless I pack down the
>sugar with my thumb and add more to make 3/4 cup.  (Pretty dumb
>measurement method.  I need to get some decent scales and measure by
>weight.)

This could be the culprit.  Since I'm pretty sloppy at measuring to 5 gallons,
I may not have enough carbonation, even though it does seem to foam up some    
when pouring.



Cause/Solution #3 - Not enough small proteins 
=============================================
>From ryptyde!mikel Mon Dec 13 14:40 MST 1993
>Second, increase your head retention by adding 1 lb. of dried wheat malt
>extract.  This may cause a chill haze, but will make the head last much
>longer.

Some postings in HBD also suggested I either add some wheat malt or more hops
TO get sufficient proteins in my wort.  Thanks for the suggestions!



One final suggestion from someone who shall remain anonymous - try a
dozen red roses! ;->

Thanks again for all the help!
- ------
Earle M. Williams
U.S. Bureau of Mines
Denver, Colorado  USA
(Internet) earlew at drc.usbm.gov

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Date: 22 Dec 1993 08:26:14 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Copper Electroplating

Tom Clifton wrote:
In any event, has anybody tried electroplating the bottom of a stainless pot to
apply a copper cladding?  Are the metals compatible etc???  I do know that that
a bath of copper sulphate, a copper anode and a battery charger will let you
plate steel (nails etc) but when you get into stainless (chrome/nickel?) will
it
will it still work?

What I can tell you about this is that it is best done in a lab. Electroplating
is usually done in cyanide baths or in the case of sulfate baths, at high
current densities 40 amps/ft-squared. Not easy to do at home in the sink. Also
the stainless needs to be pickled in strong acid beforehand to remove all of
the surface oxides that make stainless stain-less.
Aluminum cladding is done under pressure by rolling two sheets together. It is
cheaper than copper electroplating and provides nearly identical results in
terms of heat transfer charactoristics.

John Palmer 
Space Station M&P

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 09:28:14 -0700
From: reeves at lanl.gov (Geoff Reeves)
Subject: Off flavors in Kegs

>From: philb at pro-storm.metronet.com (Phil Brushaber)
>Subject: Keg Infection?
>
>        A couple of days ago I left a message about getting a
>medicinal/metallic off-taste in my brew after stainless steel
>kegging. 
>        Since I did not experience the problem with every
>kegged/brewed batch, I wanted to blame something in an
>individual batch process or ingredient. But it could also
>be that some of my kegs have a bacterial/contamination problem
>while others do not.
>        Let me say that I clean every keg before reuse and that
>I sanitize them by filling them with an Idophor solution for about
>20 minutes before re-kegging. I even push in the little stopper at
>the top of the fill tube to release air and get solution up the
>tube.
>        But I'll admit I have never ripped these kegs appart and
>pulled the little liquid and gas knobs appart. I was thinking of cleaning
>them in either an idophor or bleach solution. I know that bleach does
>bad things to stainless, but I would only soak them for about 20 minutes
>and then rinse.


Bacterial infection is not the only possibility. This problem is beginning
to sound a lot like a problem that I had with funny tastes in kegged beer.
I was using the exact same procedure - sanitize with idophor, push down the
poppets to get full coverage, force idophor through all parts with CO2. I
had no problems with my bottled beer but the kegged beer came out with what
I suppose you could call a medicinal/metallic taste. It wasn't a bacterial
infection taste though it was an IODINE taste. To this day I can't serve
porter to my homebrew club without at least a few snickers. My experience
with idophor is that not only does it have to be rinsed but that the rubber
parts of kegs like O-rings and gaskets can pick up a long-term iodine
flavor. 

I started tearing my kegs apart, boiling all rubber parts, sanitizing the
metal parts with chlorine or idophor, and then rinsing all metal parts.
with boiled water. The cornelius kegs aren't that hard to take apart. Just
unscrew the intake and output valves. You can use an adjustable wrench but
having the right extra-deep socket wrenches (~$5.00) makes the job a lot
easier. I think 3/4" or 7/8" sockets fit most keg valves. With the valves
unscrewed the two tubes (short air tube, long liquid tube) pull right out.


Geoff

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|    A brewery is like a toothbrush, everyone should have their own.      |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Geoff Reeves:  NIS-2, Mail Stop D-436, Los Alamos National Laboratory   |
|                reeves at lanl.gov (internet) or  essdp2::reeves (span)     |
|                Phone (505) 665-3877                                     |
|                Fax   (505) 665-4414                                     |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 09:29:26 -0700
From: reeves at lanl.gov (Geoff Reeves)
Subject: Bottle Inspection Comments

>
>>THis is one of my pet peeves too.  I think the inspection is fine for 
>>rings, yeast cake/cloudiness, etc, but comments on "low fill levels"
>>can be erroneous.  
>

Al Korz replies

>I'm with Spencer on this one.  The inspection line is more of a note to
>myself.  If I don't find a problem with the beer, I don't even mention
>it in the scored section of the form.  By the way, I try to remember to
>check for sediment, so I know if this is a bottle-conditioned or CP-filled
>bottle.
>

Checking for sediment is not a good test. It is easy to get lots of
sediment in a CP-filled bottle. For example the first few glasses (or
bottles) out of a keg pick up some of the yeast sediment from the bottom.
The same can happen for a whole batch if you CP-bottle before all the yeast
has settled out or if you shake up the keg accidently but have to ship your
beer to the contest that day. Conversely, I know microbreweries that filter
their beer before priming and then prime and add just enough yeast to get
carbonation. They are bottle conditioned but have virtually no visible
sediment.

My main point is that non-judges can take bottle inspection comments
seriously. They don't know that they are just notes to yourself. The
comments should be to provide constructive feedback to the brewer and I
feel that any comments that don't directly relate to the quality of the
beer are inappropriate especially when they can be percevied as negative.

Geoff

+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
|           Can you tell I'd rather read HBD than work?                   |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Geoff Reeves:  NIS-2, Mail Stop D-436, Los Alamos National Laboratory   |
|                reeves at lanl.gov (internet) or  essdp2::reeves (span)     |
|                Phone (505) 665-3877                                     |
|                Fax   (505) 665-4414                                     |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------------+


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 10:31:42 EST
From: Lee=A.=Menegoni at nectech.com
Subject: HopTech shipping

The shipping cost are cleary stated in the catalog as are the costs for 
upgrading the type of shipping from standard UPS.  My experience with
mail order is that one can not assume what shipping and handling costs
are, you need to ask.  Small orders are just as much work to pack and
ship as larger ones if the cost of handling exceeds the profit on the
items purchased why sell them.
Let the buyer beware.
   
PS:  I have had no problems ordering from HopTech, the phone staff is
helpful and you can call the "Hot line" Wednesday nites from 6-9PM PST. 


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 12:15:52 -40975532 (CST)
From: "J. Andrew Patrick" <andnator at genesis.Mcs.Com>
Subject: Making a Belgian White Ale....

Some minor clarifications and updates to Micheal Yee's posting on the
"HBU-BBS/Steve Daniel- Celis White" recipe in HBD #1302:

 - The portions about the proper yeast selection were in fact written by
  Steve Moore, the HBU-SW Campus Sysop, and not by Steve Daniel.  All other
  sections are properly attributed to Steve Daniel and Tony Storz.

 - Pierre Celis was present at all major events at the Dixie Cup in Houston
  last October.  He was very open and gracious with information about his
  brewing process, giving us added confirmation that we were on the right
  track with this recipe.

 - Dave Noonan's brewpub in Burlington, Vermont is now making a commercial
  Wit based directly upon the HBU/Steve Daniel recipe.  Unfortunately, I
  have not had a chance to try it yet, but have heard good reports.

I just brewed an all-grain batch of it with some friends, and can confirm
that the yeast selection is indeed crucial.  We started with some growing
dregs from a Steendonk bottle.  This plodded along for a few days, and then
we ended up pitching some Bavarian Wheat Wyeast to get the thing going.
We're still waiting on final product while we "dry-BOQ" on the Bitter Orange
Quarters that Pierre recommends, but the beer was _quite_ close to Celis in
terms of color and aroma at the time of racking.  If we can just get the
gravity down to an acceptable range and pick up the proper flavors from
the Bitter Orange Quarters, we should have a really close imitation of Celis
White.  We're also considering adding some lactic acid before final kegging
in an attempt to simulate the results of the secondary lactic fermentation
that Pierre does.  I'd be interested in any HBDwisdom on how do achieve this
last step.

P.S. My heartfelt thanks to ALL who replied directly to me regarding my
recent posting on AOL and censorship.  Even those of you who called me
names that made my poor naive ears turn red!!  "I may not agree with what
you say, but I will gladly fight to the death for your right to say it!"
 - Thomas Jefferson
+--------------+---------------------------------+--------------+
|Sysop         |         Andrew Patrick          |       Founder|
|Home Brew Univ| AHA/HWBTA Recognized Beer Judge |Home Brew Univ|
|Midwest BBS   |  SW Brewing News Correspondent  | Southwest BBS|
|(708)705-7263 |Internet:andnator at genesis.mcs.com| (713)923-6418|
+--------------+---------------------------------+--------------+





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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 10:08:07 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Slotted Copper/Step Mash/Miscellany

John Wheaton writes about installing a slotted copper tube to the bottom of his
mash tun to make it a mash/lauter tun.  This will work, John, as it is similar
to my cooler setup.  With only one pipe, I would probably try to put it
directly on the bottom of the tun though.  This will leave less liquor behind
and probably prevent more of the grain from finding its way into the slots.
Very little of the grain would be trapped under the pipe, I would think not
enough to worry about in terms of temperature extremes.  I'm sure Jack will
note your reason for not using SS screen:  it is less durable than the pipe.
He claims that the SS screen he buys is very rugged and that durability is not
an issue.  I have not found SS readily available in my area.

**

Andy Kligerman raises some good points about accuracy of curves fitted to
approximate data points, then says "Sorry for rambling on, by I'm in the
government and here to help you!".  Now I thought it was coming up to
Christmas, not April Fools Day!  Ha!

**

Ed Oriordan writes:

>Papazian gives the following numbers (working from memory here)
>  For 1 step infusion - Add 1 qt 165 H20 per 1lb grain  (Target 155F)
>  For step infusion   - Add 1 qt 128 H2O per 1lb grain  (Target 122F)
>                        Add .5 qt 212 H2O per 1lb grain (Target 155F)
>
>I have also found that the .5 qt he purposes does not get me
>to 155, but more like 145 I was afraid to add more boiling H2O(making it even
>thinner) so I did a partial decoction(more work than I wanted).

These numbers are just a guide.  Every mash tun is different (absorbs different
amounts of heat, etc.).  You need to adjust these numbers (keep good records)
to own setup.  I would recommend using something like .75 quart of 145F water
per 1 lb grain to hit your protein rest temp.  Then use up to .5 qt 212F water
per 1 lb grain to hit your saccharification temp.

>What are the consequences of the mash being so much thinner (than his
>1 step infussion, it's 50% thinner) during the final step????

A thicker mash encourages one of the main saccharification enzymes and a
thinner mash encourages the other (alpha amylase likes it thick??? I can't
remember).  Anyway, it is in at least one of the common books.  Look it up and
you can then adjust your temperature to aid the enzyme that's getting the short
end of the stiffness stick.  Of course, this may end up making a poor
environment for both enzymes!  Comments?

>Should I use less H2O in the first step and use it in the second?
>Should I just add as much boiling water as needed to get to 155?

See above.

>Does anybody do a step in a cooler, if so what numbers do you do(temps
>and volumes per lb)?

Now you've got me.  I haven't ever really tried this (sheepish grin...)
Remember that this advice is worth exactly what you paid for it.

>I am to lazy to stove top mash, and I don't want to build an insulated box,
>so please limit answers to what I should do for cooler mashing.
>
>The reason I am doing a protein rest is I was under the impression I needed
>to with 2 Row Breiss (Klages that is Harrington) to prevent chill haze and
>to get some needed yeast nutrients. Is that the case.

You'll probably get lots of reponse about how you are wasting your time doing a
protein rest in the first place (well-modified malts like Breiss 2-row don't
need it, etc.).  I am interested in the subject for future brews which may
require it.  Also, it would be interesting to be able to do multiple
saccarification steps (say, 145F, 150F, 155F, mashout) to see the effect it has
on the brew.  I'm not sure this is possible though without really diluting the
mash.

**

Phil Brushaber, I think you are on the right track in reworking the poppets and
O-rings in your kegs.  I have learned this lesson the hard way as well.

**

Jeff Frane writes:

>              I would suggest it would be a good rule that no one say
>"on-line" something they wouldn't be willing to say to another person's
>face -- and risk getting popped one in the snoot.

This has been my attitude all along.  If it is not appropriate to say to
someone's face, it is not appropriate.

Norm

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Date:         Wed, 22 Dec 93 14:18:10 EST
From: Peter Ferrara <FERRARA at URIACC.URI.EDU>
Subject:      test

test

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 14:26:35 +0000 (U)
From: George Tempel <tempel at MONMOUTH-ETDL1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: mosaic site for hbd?

                      mosaic site for hbd?
I've been searching for a Mosaic (WWW, WAIS, gopher, etc) site
specification for the homebrew digest and mead lover's digest.

The reference I have is:
http://www.ncsa.uiuc.edu:8001/quake.think.com:210/homebrew

but is broken.

Is there another?

george



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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 14:50:38 -0500 (EST)
From: Josh Stillerman <JAS at HARPO.PFC.MIT.EDU>
Subject: Re: 5 Liter Mini Kegs

In HBD #1303 Diane Palme writes about 5 Liter Mini-kegs.

I got one of these as a gift this fall.  I put up a batch
this fall with quite mixed results.  

1 - The beer was mostly foam when I first tapped it.  
2 - I may have over primed it - the pressure bulged out 
    the keg quite a bit.
3 - It was Ok over the next 2 days.
4 - With the tap on it is taller than a standard fridge shelf
5 - This beer was good, and reasonably carbonated in bottles
6 - 5L is actually quite a bit of beer.  This meant that I ran
    out of bottles all the quicker and had to wait for an 
    occasion to open the keg.
7 - I tapped one of the comerical 5L mini kegs using the
    same tap and it had similar problems.
8 - If you add too much Co2 the kegs leak around the bottom
    (or top) crimp.
9 - Anyone want to buy mine? :(
					Josh Stillerman


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 15:05 CDT
From: David P. Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: A-B Boycott/Budweiser

 
While A-B may be a multi-gillion dollar juggernaut don't suppose that they
will not take notice of the Patriots call for an A-B boycott.
 
>From Advertising Age, Dec. 13, 1993 front page story:  "California Budslide
Hits Anheuser-Busch".
 
The article details A-B's move to cut California Budweiser prices to stop the
brand's decline in market share....
 	"Budweiser's rate of decline has increased this year, say knowledgeable
observers.  Partial-year figures gathered by BEER MARKETER'S INSIGHTS show
that in a flat industry, A-B sales drops are concentrated in New England and the
West."  Go Pats!
 
also....
 	"Normally, the beer industry points to California as a trendsetting
state.  In San Francisco, some observers say Budweiser taps at bars are being
replaced with local or specialty brews."
 
Hurrah...but...
 	"A-B and distributors, however, argue there were some unique
circumstances in California this year.
	'We had horrendous weather.....economic woes....taxes....other brands
selling at $4.99 a case...."
 
And the plot thickens...
 	"A-B also announced plans to introduce another new brew next year,
 possibly a flavored beer."  Wow, Bud with a taste!
 	"Some distributors last week said they had heard of negotiations with
Boston Beer Co. under which A-B which(sic) would bring Samual Adams specialty
beer to its stable.  Boston Beer officials could not be reached for comment."
Busy day in court, perhaps?  Old rumors that refuse to die?  Nothing like some
quality hearsay.
 
And what of the new Bud commercials...targetting twentysomethings who can do
nothing but rattle of topical lists and drink Bud?  Geez.  I want to drink
with those guys.
 
Happy Holidays,
David Atkins
 

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 16:25:58 EST
From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name <mstickle at lvh.com>
Subject: Evaluating Beer w/ Jim Koch

I recently received a new book from the AHA entitled Evaluating Beer. What
I read so far seems pretty informative but I noticed one the final chapters
was written by Jim Koch (the book is a collection of previously published
articles by various authors). His was a fairly short article which basically
says that hops and malt are THE most important factors in beer taste. The
word yeast is not mentioned even once in the entire article. He does mention
water but says that is not important because it can be treated to suit
whatever the brewers needs are. As an example he points out the Bud tastes
the same whether iuts made in Tampa, Newark or St.Louis. I suppose this
means AB could produce Pilsner Urquell or Bass Ale if they had the right
hops and Malt. Other than this chapter the book appears to be worth the
price.

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 15:38 CDT
From: David P. Atkins <ATKINS at macc.wisc.edu>
Subject: Heileman Brew. Co Beerwatch

Hello again,
 
Just as I posted the Ad. Age piece on Budweiser, I found the following
information concerning Heileman; brewers of Colt 45, Mickey's bigmouths,
Special Export Light (GABF medal winner, I think) Old Style, Rainier & Lonestar.
 
Advertising Age, Dec. 13, 1993, "Heileman Buyer Eyes New Markets"
 
	"The new owners of G. Heileman Brewing Co. plan to aggressively expand
into new markets, including buying competitors, while maintaining a regional
approach to selling beer.
	Richard F. Gaccione said he and his new bosses are of one mind on the
company's strategic plan:  aim for growth by tapping new markets or buying
smaller competitors, and by focusing market resources on new brands."
 
Being a resident of Wisconsin and also being surrounded by some fine
microbreweries and regional operations, I express some concern of a hungry fish
entering the pond.  Berghoff of Monroe Wiconsin and of Berghoff Hotel, Chicago
fame is the property of Strohs.  Leinenkugel's (sp?)is the property of Miller.
What of Sprecher, Capital, Point, Schell?  Have any list members heard any
business rumblings concerning regional breweries?
 
Will the quality and character of regional brewing be adversely effected by
takeovers or will just the name on the letterhead be changed?  For instance,
Berghoff no longer brews beer for the Berghoff Hotel and anecdotal accounts
tell of the brand's loss of appeal in light of an expanding local beer market.
All points of view and information are encouraged.
 
Thanks and more Happy Holidays
David Atkins

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 11:36:48 PST
From: Alec Saunders <alecs at microsoft.com>
Subject: High malt glucose syrup, etc.


Hi all --

I have three questions for you:

(1) I recently started brewing again, after a prolonged hiatus (7 
years!).  When I went to the local home brew store I asked for some 
dried malt extract instead of corn sugar to go with an english bitter 
kit I had.  The proprietor of the store sold me stuff called "high malt 
glucose syrup" instead.  I made up the kit with this syrup, and then 
put it downstairs to ferment about a week ago.  I just tested the 
gravity yesterday to see if it was ready for bottling, and had a sip of 
the beer that was in the graduate cylinder.  It was FABULOUS --> no 
cidery overtones, lots of body, and an incredible malt flavour.  What 
*is* this stuff?  I assumed, from the name, that it was just glucose 
syrup.  It sure doesn't leave a taste like glucose, though!

(2) The proprietor of same store tells me to bottle as soon as the 
gravity falls below 1.010.  Says that if I let the beer ferment further 
I'm "losing alcohol".  This doesn't make sense to me.  Can anyone explain?

(3) There seems to have been a lot of discussion about starter 
gravities in HBD.  I've just gone and made up a pile of starters 
(boiled up 2 gallons of wort, then canned it in mason jars).  The 
starters turned out to have a higher SG than I was expecting -- about 
1.050 vs. the 1.040 that I was trying for.  I suspect that  the 1 Kg 
bag of dried malt extract I purchased was a little overfull.  In any 
case, my question is simply this -- does anyone have a good feel for 
what the optimal SG for a starter is?  Is my 1.050 going to cause a problem?

Thanks for all of your help.

Alec.

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 16:37:31 +0000 (U)
From: George Tempel <tempel at MONMOUTH-ETDL1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: hoppy whatever

                      hoppy whatever
i'll waste some bandwidth here to wish
everyone, and their special others, a safe
and hoppy holiday season.

i'll be racking to a secondary tomorrow on my
honey wheat ale.

george



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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 16:56:02 EST
From: asteinm at pipeline.com (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: Seltzer Carbonators 

I use them to carbonate water every day.  They work great.  I 
don't have a need to use them with beer but they work fine here 
too.  Note that long term storage in PET bottles is not 
recommended cuz of oxygen permeability.

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 16:56:07 EST
From: asteinm at pipeline.com (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: Weissbier 

Jeffrey L. Duerk writes: 

>If anyone has any experience in this area, a recipe to share, 
and yeast info, I'd appreciate
> either a posting here, or directly to me at jld3 at po.cwru.edu

I took second place in the national Weiss is Nice competition 
with a totally simple recipe.

For 5 gal:

6 lbs Yellow Dog Extract
1/2 lb. cracked crystal malt
1/2 oz. Hallertau hops

YeastLabs Weizen yeast in 1 qt. starter

Steep crystal in water as water is brought to boil.
Add hops and extract.
Boil for 90 min.  (longer boil is better for wheat beers)
No finising hops.
Force chill and pitch yeast at 68 deg. F.
Ferment till done.
Rack to secondary and lager at 40 deg. for one month.

The YeastLabs Weizen strain deserves all the credit.   The true 
Weizen cloviness really comes through.


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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 93 16:59:21 CST
From: Will B. Blalock <willb at hp3.imed.com>
Subject: Fixed Kettle Thermometers
Full-Name: Will B. Blalock

 
  I have seen pictures of SS kettles and hot liquid tanks that 
  have thermometers attached on the sides midway between bottom
  and top. Is this easily done? Does it take a special thermometer
  which has to be welded to the side or can it be attached in an
  easier way? Where do you find these flat thermometers (or do you
  cut the stem off a typical style thermometer? Is it worth it?
  --
  *-------------------------------*------------------------------*
  | Will Blalock : willb at imed.com | No one ever called Picasso   |
  | 409-798-0201   Angleton Texas | an assho.                    |
  *-------------------------------*------------------------------*

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Date: Wed, 22 Dec 1993 19:07:49 -0400 (EDT)
From: WESTEMEIER at delphi.com
Subject: Bulk hop purchasing


I hope this doesn't get interpreted as a commercial, but I would really
like to share a good experience and recommend it to everyone:
 
Our homebrew club (the Bloatarian Brewing League) has always bought
grain in bulk quantities (like a ton or two at a time).  This method
has been so efficient and economical that we decided it would be
worthwhile to try buying hops the same way.
 
We gathered everyone's list of what hops they expected to be using 
between now and next harvest, and consolidated them into one big list.
 
Then we checked some suppliers and settled on The Hop Source in Oregon
(Glenn Tinseth, 503-873-2879).  Since it was a bulk order (over 25 
pounds), Glenn gave us 50% off his normal prices for the 92 crop, and
25% off his 93 crop prices.  We wound up buying 72 pounds of hops,
and Glenn's only restriction was that we order in units of pounds.
 
When the hops arrived, they were packed in one-pound, oxygen-barrier
vacuum-sealed bags, and the 92 crop looked as good as the 93 crop. 
Bright green and beautiful.
 
I'm sure that other hop merchants will offer similar deals, so this
isn't really a "plug" for The Hop Source, and I certainly don't have
any connection of any kind other than as very satisfied customer.
 
If anyone is looking for hops to carry them through the winter
brewing season, I strongly encourage you to get your club together
and put a bulk order in now.
 
 
One final note:  I have found that once the oxygen-barrier bag is
opened, an excellent way of keeping the hops pretty fresh is to wrap
them in aluminum foil and crimp the edges tightly.  Zip-lock plastic
bags are useful, but they don't keep the oxygen out, while aluminum
foil gives you as close to an airtight container as you're likely
to find.  Obviously, you want to keep them in the freezer or at least
the refrigerator (or even outside if you're in a cold climate), since
the vapor pressure will be reduced by the lower temperature, also
contributing to freshness.
 
- -- Ed Westemeier
- -- Cincinnati, Ohio
- -- westemeier at delphi.com
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1305, 12/23/93