FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Newman's Albany Amber (8-293-5810 or (914))" <huckfinn at vnet.IBM.COM>
  Re: Koch/etc (Jim Busch)
  Question about bottles (perkins)
  Cherry handling (Chuck Wettergreen)
  Counterflow chiller model (Bill Szymczak)
  Finings for Shipping ("Bill Kitch")
  Dishwasher Bottles (y2046)
  Water question ("Steven W. Smith")
  Potential Extract <> Fermentable Products (dmorey)
  hop storage (Spencer.W.Thomas)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Mon, 27 Dec 93 08:05:32 EST
From: "Paul Austin (8-293-5810 or (914))" <huckfinn at vnet.IBM.COM>
Subject: Newman's Albany Amber

Amber fans who took interest in Roy Harvey's note on New Amsterdam
Amber beer may also want to look out for Newman's Albany Amber. I
am not really sure if either is microbrewed, however - I think
New Amsterdam comes from Utica, NY, where FX Matt's is. Both are
fine beers, regardless.

Paul Austin

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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 09:52:49 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Re: Koch/etc

> From: Mark Stickler Internet Mail Name <mstickle at lvh.com>
> Subject: Evaluating Beer w/ Jim Koch
> 
> I recently received a new book from the AHA entitled Evaluating Beer. What
> I read so far seems pretty informative but I noticed one the final chapters
> was written by Jim Koch (the book is a collection of previously published
> articles by various authors). His was a fairly short article which basically
> says that hops and malt are THE most important factors in beer taste. The
> word yeast is not mentioned even once in the entire article. He does mention
> water but says that is not important because it can be treated to suit
> whatever the brewers needs are. As an example he points out the Bud tastes
> the same whether iuts made in Tampa, Newark or St.Louis. I suppose this
> means AB could produce Pilsner Urquell or Bass Ale if they had the right
> hops and Malt. Other than this chapter the book appears to be worth the
> price.

As a matter of "fact", he could!  I would even venture that the malt can be
substituted, with modest success.  The points Jim make are quite valid wrt
his lagers.  He uses (I assume) Weihenstephan 34/70, a very clean reliable 
performer.  Not sure if AB yeast would be as good, but Jim's decoction sytem
from Pub Brewing is certainly capable of making a killer Pils.  As Jeff Frane
pointed out, many AB brewers are quite good, and would like to make more 
flavorful beers.  Where do you think all those Weihenstephan Diplom 
Braumeisters work??  AB also employs a tasting panel that continually 
evaluates each of the AB breweries products, and reports the perceived 
differences between them, what a skill!  If the big boys ever wake up, it
could be tough for some of the Koch's out there.

- ---------

RE: hop storage

I was reading the comments on oxygen barrier packaging for hops.  I 
realize that there is some loss when using non barrier bags, but if 
they are frozen, how much does it matter over a year, and dont some
quality noble hops *improve* with a degree of oxidation?  I completley
agree that it is better to buy in barrier bags, but it certainly ups
the cost considerably, and if you buy direct at harvest time, and 
repackage them/freeze them, how bad are the losses?  I think the 
biggest problem is with retailers who dont repack, dont chill, and
dont store in a dark place.

Best,
Jim Busch


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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 93 10:24:34 EST
From: perkins at zippy.ho.att.com
Subject: Question about bottles

My question is about what bottles to use.  The only definitive statement
I've seen is to use "returnable" bottles.  Since virtually all bottles in
New York State (where I live) are returnable by law, I need a little help
making the distinction.  I gather that

		* Grolsch swing-tops are good
		* refillable bar/restaurant bottles are good
		* champagne bottles are good

What about lighter (weight) bottles?  I've been saving Brooklyn Lager
bottles (similar to Sam Adams bottles) for a while.  Will they be OK or
should I hit the local establishments for something else?  How many times
can I expect to reuse these bottles (or any of those noted above)?

Thanks for the help.
Mark

- --
Mark E. Perkins				Internet:  perkins at zippy.ho.att.com
AT&T Bell Laboratories, Rm 3F-502	uucp:  ...!att!zippy!perkins
101 Crawfords Corner Road		Telephone:  +1 908 949 5441
P.O. Box 3030				FAX:  +1 908 949 1652
Holmdel, NJ  0733-3030

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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 93 09:09:00 -0600
From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: Cherry handling


SS> Steven W. Smith <SMITH_S at gc.maricopa.edu> wrote:

SS> "Whenever I can find cherrys again, I plan to try adding them to my
  > standard bock.  It seems reasonable (to me) to wash the whole fruit
  > in a mild bleach solution, rinse, dry, smash (how?), force into a
  > carboy (how?), then siphon from the primary onto them.  I'm thinking
  > about 10 pounds of cherries to a 5 gallon batch.  Maybe
  > freezing/thawing before smashing? Do the pits matter? Any comments
  > appreciated, I'm flying blind."

And Richard Childers replied:

RC> The idea of rinsing fruit in a bleach solution, no matter how weak,
  > sounds unwise. I've heard other solutions suggested, um, copper
  > permanganate, maybe ? ( Don't take this, alone, as sufficient
  
I think I'd use some Campden tablets, one or two per gallon of water 
that the fruit is washed in. Soak one or two hours then rinse. The H2S 
produced by the tablets should take care of anything lurking on the 
fruit.

RC> more easily. And, of course, dropping tenderized fruit into a
  > boiling liquid solution is regarded as suitable for any serious
  > sanitation, or at least, a solution over 170 Fahrenheit.

I don't think I'd do that. I have done in the past, and most of the 
cherry aroma and taste seemed to disappear into that hot wort, never to 
be seen again.

If you have a food processor, the steel blade, lightly pulsed, will 
macerate the fruit better than you could do with a meat tenderizing 
hammer (without the splash too).

Chuck


 * RM 1.2 00946 * The heat of the moment can burn you for a lifetime.

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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 93 11:47:31 EST
From: bszymcz%ulysses at relay.nswc.navy.mil (Bill Szymczak)
Subject: Counterflow chiller model

A few weeks ago, Tim McNerney asked if Stoelting was making a
magic chiller which claimed it could chill 5 gallons of wort
from 210F to 56F using only 5 gallons of tap water. 
At that time I'm sure I bored most of you with my model of an 
immersion chiller which predicted a minimum of 11.87 gallons
of 40F tap water was required to chill 5 gallons of boiling wort
to 56F (while 48.75 gallons would be required if the wort was
mixed with the water).  Therefore, the conclusion was that
either Stoelting was exaggerating or counterflow chillers are
much more efficient than immersion chillers.  Based on my
following model of counterflow chillers, I think the latter is
true (for a properly designed counterflow chiller).

This model assumes only one spatial dimension x, 0<=x<=L,
measuring distance along the length of the tubing.  In other
words the cross-sectional temperature is assumed to be constant
(no thermal boundary layers).  The copper fins covering the
wort line of the Stoetling should help in making this assumption
reasonable.  It also is probably reasonable if the flows are
turbulent.  Diffusion in the direction of the tubing is
ignored.

Let   T(x,t) = the water temperature at point x and time t.
     Tw(x,t) = the wort temperature at point x and time t.
       Ti    = T(0,t) the inlet water temperature (tap).
       Tb    = Tw(L,t) the temperature of the hot wort in the
               kettle.
       k     = heat conduction coeficient (radial)
       A     = average cross-sectional area of water.
       Aw    = average cross-sectional area of wort.
       V     = velocity of water.
       Vw    = speed of wort (Vw and V are both taken to be
               positive although the flow is in opposit directions.
       R     = A*V = flow rate of water
       Rw    = Aw*Vw = flow rate of wort.
       a     = Rw/R = flow rate ratio.

The equations for the temperatures are:

         dT                  dT
(1)   A --- = k (Tw - T) - R ---
         dt                  dx

        dTw                   dTw
(2)  Aw --- = k (T - Tw) + Rw ---
         dt                   dx

With boundary conditions

   Tw(L,t) = Tb     
    T(0,t) = Ti,

where d/dx and d/dt are partial derivatives.
We are interested in the steady-state solution (d/dt terms=0),
in particular we need Tw(0), the temperature of the wort as it
exits the chiller.  If R=Rw  the solution is

                      R              k
(3)   Tw(0) = Tb * ------- + Ti * ---------
                     R+kL           R+kL

and if R not= Rw, Rw=aR, a>0, a not = 1 , then


              Tb*(1-a)*exp((a-1)kL/aR) + Ti*(1-exp((a-1)kL/aR)
(4)  Tw(0) = ------------------------------------------------
		     1 - a * exp((a-1)kL/aR)

It is easiest to consider the case when R=Rw, equation (3).
This equation says that the wort temperature can be cooled to
nearly that of the inlet temp Ti, if either the rate is
sufficiently low (R is small), or, for a fixed value of k, the
length L is large.  Equation (4) also reflects the obvious fact
that if the water flow is large with respect to the wort flow
(a is small but positive) then Tw(0) will also be close to the
inlet temp for fixed values of k, and L.

It is also interesting to note that if the boundary conditions
are changed so that the flow of the wort and water are in the
same direction (Tw(0,t)=Tb, T(0,t)=Ti and now a < 0) then the
solution is

        Ti - a*Tb    Ti + Tb 
Tw(L) = --------- + -------- exp ((k*(1-a)/a)*L) .
          1 - a      1 - a

If for example, a = -1 (same flow rate of wort and water in
the same direction) then Tw(L) -> 0.5*(Ti + Tb) as L gets large.
For this "un-counterflow" chiller the same amount of water would be
required as if you mixed the water and wort.  This is what you
would expect and serves as a "sanity" check for the model.

It may be better to send any technical comments on the model or
errors anyone finds to me directly and I'll repost a summary.

Bill Szymczak
bszymcz at ulysses.nswc.navy.mil

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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 11:57:33 -0600 (CST)
From: "Bill Kitch" <kitchwa at bongo.cc.utexas.edu>
Subject: Finings for Shipping

I recently received some homebrew via UPS.  As I'm waiting for the beers
to clarify again I was wondering about the use of finings.  I don't normally
use any finings but recall reading that one of the atributes of isinglass
is that helps cask conditioned ale to resediment quickly after delivery
to the pub.  That makes me reconsider its use, especially for beer that
will be shipped.  Who out there is using finings?  Do you find it really
helps in resedimenting beer that has been disturbed?  Does polyclar have the
same effect of must one use isinglass?

Sante' WAK

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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 1993 12:38:57 -0500
From: y2046 at hrpi16.DNET.hcc.com
Subject: Dishwasher Bottles

 Hello,
  I have been wondering if it would be acceptable to use my dishwasher
to setrilize my bottles.  I have been bringing them into work, and using
the autoclave in the laboratory to do this.  I know the dishwasher
is not nearly as good as the autoclave, but I need to know if it is
good enough.  If anyone has any positive or negitive experiences about using
a dishwasher to sterilize their bottles please reply to:
Y2046 at hrpi16.dnet.hcc.com

    Thanks,
    Bruce



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Date: 27 Dec 1993 10:54:12 -0700 (MST)
From: "Steven W. Smith" <SMITH_S at gc.maricopa.edu>
Subject: Water question

  Since the tap water here in the Phoenix area is so "interesting" - PH about
8.0, very hard, Ca, Fe, Mg, Benzene, TCE (thanks, guys) I've traditionally 
brewed using Crystal bottled water.  I'm planning to get off my butt soon 
and contact them for an exact analysis, since they take great pride in their 
water's consistant flavor.  They supposedly use reverse osmosis, then 
introduce flavoring minerals.  Anyone recommend a good practical reference for
the water chemistry desirable for different beers - for a non-chemist, that is.
The only books I've got are Papazian's 2 releases (little and big).  I also 
wonder if digital PH meters are out there somewhere?
  The black beers I brewed suffered from the recently discussed sourness (due 
to low PH?).  The dark ambers I've been brewing seem to do very well with stock 
Crystal water, but I'd like to try brewing a black lager before summer hits 
again. TIA
  _,_/|
  \o.O;   Steven W. Smith, Programmer/Analyst
 =(___)=  Glendale Community College, Glendale Az. USA 
    U     SMITH_S at GC.BITNET
          smith_s at gc.maricopa.edu
"They can't fix your brakes. You ask them 'where's my motor?', 'Well, it was 
 eaten by snakes'... _Flakes_, Frank Zappa

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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 93 12:46:53 -0600
From: dmorey at iastate.edu
Subject: Potential Extract <> Fermentable Products


Hello once again,

	Thank you for the responses to my questions about the extract
potential of dark grains.  Since my posting there are been a few
questions about my sources, so here they are:

BREWING QUALITY BEERS, Byron burch, Joby Books, 1991

THE NEW COMPLETE JOY OF HOME BREWING, Charlie Papazian, Avon Books,
	1991
  
BETTER BEER & HOW TO BREW IT, M. R. Reese, Garden Way Publishing, 1978

THE COMPLETE HANDBOOK OF HOME BREWING, David Miller, Garden Way
	Publishing book, 1988 (I have heard this is now out of print,
	is this true)?

THE BIG BOOK OF BREWING, David Line, Amateur Winemaker Publications,
	1985
 
* I also did repeated SG measurements for the various sugars.


	For my final point, I want to clear up what I ment about
potential extract.  Yes, it is true that the black malts produce no
fermentable products during the mash, but, they DO contain soluable
matter.  This soluable matter does change the specific gravity.  Just
as adding large amounts of salt to water (and salt being non
fermentable) the specific gravity of the solution will rise.  As
homebrewers, we are interested in SG readings because they are an
indication of our sugar content, but not an absolute measurement.
Also it provides feedback on how efficient our process is and how
close we have come to duplicating a recipe.  Well, that is enough of
my spouting off.

Thank you for your time and happy fermentations,

Dan A. Morey


P.S.  Tis the season to have a homebrew, but then again when isn't?

__________________________________________________________________________

Dan A. Morey 		If pleasure and the pursuit of happiness
dmorey at iastate.edu	(hoppiness) is the most vile crime in this PC
			world, let it be known, "I shall be the
			greatest villain that ever lived!"  Hope this 
			doesn't offend anyone!???????

- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
	

  

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Date: Mon, 27 Dec 93 15:11:21 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: hop storage

Ed's note about keeping hops reminds me of a trick I recently figured
out for easily "vacuum sealing" stuff in ziplocs (at least).  I take a
straw and stick it into the bag, then zip the bag as far shut as I
can, and hold it tightly around the straw.  Then I suck on the straw
until no more air comes and quickly draw out the straw, sealing the
bag behind it.  Not as good as a commercial vacuum pack, but better
than doing nothing.  And easy & cheap.

=S

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1309, 12/28/93