FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Coordinator


Contents:
  Peltier Thermoelectrics (bobreg)
  counter-flow -vs- immmersion chillers ("Peter.Langlois")
  Cider kits, BREWHEAT BOILERS (ginty)
  Hop growing (kstiles)
  dreamland... (HEAD IDJIT)
  Re: Idea for step-infusion (adc)
  malt extract adulteration? (Joe Boardman)
  Growing Hops/HSA/Ovens/Batching It (npyle)
  Wheat Beer (MARK CASTLEMAN)
  RE: higher alcohols, mashing (Jim Busch)
  Cherry Stout (Larry Bellmard)
  Re: Rumours (Darren Aaberge)
  Heat exchange/electric coolers/mashing/Nuke/mashing (Ed Hitchcock)
  Big brewing..Science/art? ("Daniel F McConnell")
  Big brewing..Science/art? ("Daniel F McConnell")
  big brewing (followup) (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  List of suppliers. ("George Cebulka, ECE Facilities")
  Yeast from bottles (TODD CARLSON)
  Polyclar ("Timothy R. Peters")
  priming with honey (Bryan L. Gros)
  clip art coming soon... (George Tempel)
  SS oatmeal stout/yeast energizer/primary (James Clark)
  guessless mashing (BMOORE)
  Water Analysis Followup (npyle)
  Advice needed on serving for large events (Richard Goldstein)
  diastatic power/souring beer (Joel Birkeland)
  Chillin' Wort (Scott Neumann)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Thu, 06 Jan 94 01:42:05 EST
From: bobreg at aol.com
Subject: Peltier Thermoelectrics

To the person who inquired about building a cooler with Peltier
thermoelectric modules, I would advise doing a few calulations before you
invest ANY money. A few years ago I worked with an applications engineer at
Melcor, one of the largest manufacturers of Peltier modules, to design a
cooler for carboys and corny kegs. I built a prototype cooler that worked
very well, for about $125. You could probably build one cheaper these days,
as the cost of Peltier modules has gone down.
The problems was that I never considered how much the cost of power would be.
It ended up costing about $15 per month to operate the thing. My plan was to
build one that would hold 2 carboys. That would have cost about $25/month.
Peltiers are great when you have a good cheap source of low voltage, high
current power. When you have to pay for power from the local utilities to
operate it, they're not such a good deal. 
However, with a proportional output supply and thermostat you could
concievably make one that was more cost effective to operate. But
the cost of goods would be much higher of course. In any event, the
box must be super insulated and any temperature calculations you do must take
into account the temperature effects of fermentation. Good luck.

- --bob

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Date: Wed, 05 Jan 94 14:35:43 EST
From: "Peter.Langlois" <langlp at us0104tb.boston.NCR.COM>
Subject: counter-flow -vs- immmersion chillers

    From:  Peter.Langlois at BostonMA.NCR.COM (Pete Langlois)

 Subject:  counter-flow -vs- immmersion chillers

The counter-flow -vs- immersion thing has gottem me going.  It's not an 
either/or situation.

What I use is about 45 feet of 3/8 inch copper in a double coil.  The coil 
is placed in a sink full of cold water and the hot wort siphoned through.  
As the water in the sink warms up, more cold water is run into the sink (and 
the drain is opened a little).  I have no measurement on the quantity of 
water used, but there are secondary benefits - the sink's water is used for 
cleaning up while the wort is chilling, and I get access to my kitchen tap 
for any other needs.

I prefer chilling down to 70 degrees without then having to handle the cool 
culture medium.  It means I have to take an additional step to sterilize the 
chiller, but I save that in handling wort at the end.  Hmm, perhaps I'll use 
the oven for this.

So I am using a flow-through immersion chiller, right? ;^)


PETE

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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 1994 08:26:22 EST
From: ginty at salve3.salve.edu
Subject: Cider kits, BREWHEAT BOILERS

It has been a while since I brewed my last batch. Prior to this I
was a regular beers of all grain beers for many years. Most brews
consisted of a good pint of bitter very similar to traditional
beers from my native England. I seem to recall that during the
early 80's there was a company selling those Brew-heat boilers
which were imported from England. Does anyone out there know if
these are still available and from where, cost etc?

I have just returned from a trip from the UK and brought back a
Cider brewing kit. Does anyone know of a supplier of such in the States?.
I have been making cider for the past fews years. I usually ferment
fresh cider in the Fall and then bottle. During the Summer months this
provides a very refreshing, parkling and strong drink. However, the
apples which are used to make fresh cider are not really "cider"
apples.

Thanks......Cheers....

*******************************************************************
* Gerry Ginty                    Internet: ginty at salve3.salve.edu *
* Computer Operations Manager
* Information Systems Dept.      Voice:    (401)847-6650 ext 2177 *
* Salve Regina University                                         *
* Newport, RI 02840                                               *
*******************************************************************

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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 08:25:05 EST
From: franc!kstiles at woomera.att.com
Subject: Hop growing


In HBD #1317, nr706 at aol.com asks about growing hops.

I've had excellent luck with mail order rhizomes from:
Freshops
36180 Kings Valley Hwy.
Philomath, OR 97370

Hops like lots of sun, lots of water, good drainage, fertilizer, 
and (most important) something tall to climb.  Given all of the
above, something about the height of the Eiffel tower will do.

My question:  Will hops do well in Orlando, FL, or do they need
a real winter season to go dormant?  

 -Kevin Stiles

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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 07:30:10 -0700
From: berg%eccx.dnet at esu36.ateng.az.Honeywell.COM (HEAD IDJIT)
Subject: dreamland...

I was wondering if anyone knew of any books/publications 
about setting up a brew pub (a dream, I know, but if 
I win the lottery tonight, I might just do it!) I read
in 'Smart Money' that the cost for setting up a pub is 
$500,000.  Does this seem high, or is it just me?

Dave Berg

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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 10:23 EST
From: adc at mvuts.att.com
Subject: Re: Idea for step-infusion

In HBD # 1317, John J. Magee writes:
>1) Conduct the protein rest on the stove. Temps here can be a bit variable, so 
>watching the kettle isn't that intensive. The short time involved means that
>any
>temp-maintenance heat used will be miniscule.
>
>2) Boost the mash to saccharification temp. Nail it just right. Dump it into a 
>preheated picnic cooler set up. Proceed as with picnic-cooler single-temp 
>infusion.

The only issue I see with this process is the concern for Hot Side Aeration
when transferring the mash.  I prefer to minimize any chance of HSA to
the extent that I even rack the mash from the kettle straight into the
wort chiller (counterflow type).  At present this is rather awkward as I
do this by syphon.  I have been considering putting a tap on the bottom of
ny mash kettle but can't seem to get up the nerve (expensive 10 gal SS pot).
[ Any suggestions on resolving this issue?? ]

I do my mashing outside on a cajun cooker.  I recently constructed an
insulated "container" that I can simply place over the kettle and cooker.
It is made from a type of insulation that consists of bubble wrap faced
with foil on both sides and has an R value of approximatley 12.  I formed
it into a cylinder, closed on the top end.  I put a 10" hole in the top
to vent fumes.  I place it over the cooker/kettle and keep the cooker
set very low.  The only problem I have is with scorching the bottom of
the kettle which I intend to resolve with the pizza stone technique.
The insulated container is very light and easy to handle.  I use it to
cover the kettle & cooker in storage.

ADC


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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 08:42:35 MST
From: Joe Boardman <boardman at amber.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: malt extract adulteration?

G'day HBDers,

I remember there was some discussion here once about a study done
at a Uni in Canada, investigating adulteration of malt syrups with
cheaper sugars.

Can anyone send me a copy of this?

I was telling my local supplier about and he said he'd never heard of any such
story.   Of course it couldn't affect any of HIS brands.......

Cheers, Joe
boardman at amber.colorado.edu

"brew free then die!"

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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 8:58:35 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Growing Hops/HSA/Ovens/Batching It

nr706 at aol.com (hellooo, anybody there?) writes:

>what's involved in growing hops. What tempertatures/climates do they prefer?
>Can they be home grown? Where are seed or plant sources (haven't seen much on
>this in zymurgy, tho I haven't scanned every ad in depth). What's involved in
>harvesting & using in beer? Are there any good reference books out there I
>should check out?

Check out the Hops FAQ at the stanford archive site.

**

Don Sharp asks:

>What is HSA?

Hot Side Aeration.  It is basically oxidation of malt components at elevated
temperatures.  It can produce astringent off-flavors (maybe other off-
flavors?).  Please read Dr. Fix's article in the (Fall?) 1993 issue of
Zymurgy.  I don't want to misquote or mislead you.

**

As far as using the oven for sanitizing bottles, I like the idea.  I do believe
that the bottles will eventually stress from this, though, so I won't do it to
my brown Grolsch bottles.  They are invaluable, but I'd do it to any type of
bottle I can easily replace.

**

Jack writes:

> There are a number of reasons why it is more practical to add the grain to
> room temp water and heat the entire mash instead of just dumping the grain
> into hot water.

He then goes on to list a couple of reasons.  You left one out, though, Jack.
During dough-in at room temperature, there are no HSA worries.  When I am
stirring my mash, trying to work out all the dough balls, there can be a fair
amount of air introduced.

> The important thing is to understand that sparging is not normally a batch
> process.  You want to keep an inch of water over the grain at all times

I beg your pardon!  It is quite "normally a batch process" at my house.  I just
don't extract every last molecule of sugar, as you do.  To each his own.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 09:08:56 -0700 (MST)
From: MARK CASTLEMAN <mwcastle at ouray.Denver.Colorado.EDU>
Subject: Wheat Beer

I am statring to plan my annual wheat beer and I have been thinking about
adding more wheat malt.  Previously I used Northwestern Weiss (66% wheat,
33% barley) and it made a darn good beer.  I now have several bags of dry
wheat malt which I have been using to help out the head of other beers.

What would happen if I raise the % of wheat in the Weiss?  Is there an
upper limit?  Are the any flavor effects to be considered?

                             Mark W Castleman
                     Big Dog Brewing Cooperative - West
Wouldn't it be terrible if I quoted some reliable statistics which prove that
more people are driven insane through religious hysteria than by drinking.
                                                     --W.C. Fields


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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 11:30:52 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: RE: higher alcohols, mashing

Josh writes:

> Subject: Re: Using Lager Yeast at Ale temps
> 
> S. uvarum has a propensity for producing large amounts of higher molecular
> alcohols 

the word *weight* was left out.  The alcohols known as fusels, contain
longer carbon chains, then regular ethanol.  Thats why thier molecular
weight is greater than Ethanol.

when fermentation takes place at temperatures above the mid 50s.
> These can produce their own off tastes, or combine with fatty acids to
> produce too many esters.  In most lager styles, fruity (estery) aromas
> and flavors are considered to be flaws.
> 
> Last week, at a beer judging study group, I came across one commercial 
> European Pilsner with an extremely distinctive and strong "grass" aroma.  
> Spencer Thomas had along a copy of _Evaluating Beer_, which pointed to a 
> particular higher molecular alcohol.  I can either blame the fermentation
> temperature or the particular strain of yeast for that aroma.  Whether
> it was intentional or not is a different matter.  :-)

Some hops are also known to produce what some describe as "grassy" or 
"earthy" aromas.  I have found this to be true with Mt. Hood.  I am
not implying that these are negative attributes, just a description.
> 
> ------------------------------

Jack writes:

> Subject: Kettle Mashing
> 
>  
>  >From: SWEENERB at memstvx1.memst.edu
>  >Subject: kettle mashing on a Cajun cooker/gelatin & yeast
>  
>  >1.  heat water in kettle to strike temp and add grains
>  
>  There are a number of reasons why it is more practical to add the grain to 
>  room temp water and heat the entire mash instead of just dumping the grain 
>  into hot water.
>  
>  The most obvious is that there is no guessing about "strike" temp.  You 
>  simply shut off the heat when you get there and add more as it cools to 
>  maintain temp.

There are a number of reasons why it is more practical to add the grain to
hot water.  When producing traditional English ales, using well modified
malt, one may not want to spend any time in the protein rest stage, or in
the beta rest range, in order to produce a more dextrinous wort.  Some
of these well modified malts can result in an ale that is too attenuative 
when using an upward step mash, and particularly when doughing in at room
temp.  Not to mention the effort required to raise a thick mash from room
temp to any reasonable mash temp. In many systems, it easier to manage the
water temp, calculate the expected heat drop, and use the perfect temp water
to result in the desired rest temp.
>  
>  The more arguable is that if you are a believer in all the favorite "rest" 
>  temps that get promoted in brewing circles, you can make the case that, as 
  the mash temp is climbing to sacchrification temp, it spends some finite time 
>  at all those magic temps.

Extremely important in all grain weizens, and decoction mashed lagers.  
>  
>  >2.  mash for 90 min.
>  
>  I know of no reason to mash for 90 minutes.  Most grain fully converts iN 30 
>  minutes or less.  45 mins should provide a reasonable guard band if you do 
>  not do the iodine test.

I believe 60 is a more commonly accepted number.

>  
 >3.  separate wort from grains (either use the EASYMASHER approach of putting 
 a drain in bottom of kettle or use a metal racking cane) and put in one of my 
>  other pots
>  
>  >4.  add heated sparge water and collect more wort.  This is what I am fuzzy 
>  about; how do you heat sparge water and at the same time keep mash hot with 
>  only one heat source?
>  
>  Steps 3 and 4 normally are concurrent and continuous.  After your mash is 
>  complete, remove kettle from heat source and start heating sparge water.
>  
>  The mash should be allowed to settle for 15 to 30 minutes during which time 
>  you should get at least some water heated so you can start sparging.  If you 
>  use something like a coffee pot to heat it in you can sparge as fast as you 
>  can heat the water.  If you use two, it is even better.
>  

15 - 30 seems excessive to me.  

>  The important thing is to understand that sparging is not normally a batch 
>  process.  You want to keep an inch of water over the grain at all times 
>  during sparging until you are within a gallon or two of your required wort 
>  volume.  Then you can just let it run dry but you need to get a feel for how 
>  much liquid is held in the grain and essentially lost.

There are many successful micros who allow the water bed to drop below the
grain bed prior to adding additional sparge water.  The ability of the 
properly designed flase bottom to handle this is the assumption, something
I suspect the Easy***** is incapable of.

>  
  P.S.  This same article and my response appeared in r.c.b. and although I see 
>  no harm in the redundancy, it does make followup a little precarious and 
>  convoluted.  As HBD is daily posted to r.c.b, it would make more sense just 
>  to post the question to HBD if answers from both readerships are desired.

No harm, my kill file results in all postings from certain individuals to be
rejected :-)

Good brewing,
Jim Busch

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"


PS: anyone out there have any experience using the new american hop, Crystal?
Comments on the results?


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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 10:44:33 -0600
From: larryb at ssd.fsi.com (Larry Bellmard)
Subject: Cherry Stout

I recently brewed an extract/grain Russian Imperial Stout.  It is 
bubbling away nicely after a day.  I will rack to the secondary in
a couple of days.  I talked to my brew supply guy about making this
a Cherry Stout.  He said that he adds a tablespoon or so (to taste)
of Cherry syrup to the bottom of a glass then pours the beer.  I tried
this with a Stout I have and it tasted ok.  He recommended to make a
whole batch, to add the syrup when I bottle.  I was wondering if the
fermentable sugars in the syrup would do anything *strange* in the
bottles and cause any off tastes.  Does this sound like it would
work?? Has any tried this??  Also, would this effect the amount of
sugar I should use for priming??  I'd hate to ruin a whole batch,
this Stout has been great in the past!!

Thanks for any input and hope everyone is having a Hoppy New Beer!
Larry B.

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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 08:44:41 PST
From: dra at jsc-ws.sharpwa.com (Darren Aaberge)
Subject: Re: Rumours

Norm Pyle writes in response to George R. Flentke:

>>    They also said that the Feds had come down hard on the makers of Grant's
>>Cider.  They declared that cider is a wine, and Grant's did not have the
>>right permits!  I know that Grant's also got in trouble for putting some
>>statement of nutritional value on their products.
>
>This is also true.  Yet another case of the BATF run amok (remember Waco?).
>Anyone who would put nutritional information on their beer bottles ought to be
>shot!  Clearly BATF has it out for Grant's for some reason.  Lets hope they
>survive the assault.

In defense of the BATF (or whoever didn't like the nutritional information on
Grant's products, I am not sure it was the BATF), I believe the thing that
Yakima Brewing and Malting Co. (brewers of Grant's products) got in trouble for 
was stating that each bottle of beer contained 160% of the recommended USDA for 
vitamin B, but they failed to mention that the alcohol in the beer would remove 
more than that from your body.  This IMHO was clearly misleading and should not 
have been on the packages.  

Darren Aaberge


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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 1994 13:26:41 -0400
From: Ed Hitchcock <ECH at ac.dal.ca>
Subject: Heat exchange/electric coolers/mashing/Nuke/mashing

Earle Williams writes: 
>If you have ten gallons going from boiling (212 F) to65 F, that's a loss of 
>1470 gallons-F.  Take your 34 gallons of coolant times its change and you get 
>1547 gallons-F.  the difference is 77 gals-F, or 5.24%.  Either you are 
>violating all the laws of thermodynamics (none of which I know well enough 

>to quote! ;->) or your measurements are less than 5% accurate.  Considering 
>the accuracy of moost brewing equipment, I would say that's the case.  So 
>your intuition seems to be spot on!

	Of course, you may have re-discovered cold fusion!

************
Robert Milstead writes: 
>Wrong!  I ran right out to the catalog store and looked it over.  The 
>first thing I noticed was that the top temperature was140 degrees. 
>The real killer though was the notice that said, "Do not, under any 
>circumstances put liquid in this cooler".  How dumb.  Sigh.  I wonder
>if anyone out there has any information on the efficiency, top operating
>temperature, etc. of these devices.  Would they ever be practical for
>application in mashing, if only for temperature control of an already
>heated mash?

	If their heating ability is anything like their cooling ability, I'd
say 140 degrees F is dreaming.  We had one that couldn't cool down below about 
12 C in a normal room.  They are a gimmick.

**************
Jack Schmidling writes:
> There are a number of reasons why it is more practical to add the grain to
> room temp water and heat the entire mash instead of just dumping the grain
> into hot water.
>
> The most obvious is that there is no guessing about "strike" temp.  You
> simply shut off the heat when you get there and add more as it cools to
> maintain temp.
>
> The more arguable is that if you are a believer in all the favorite "rest"
> temps that get promoted in brewing circles, you can make the case that, as
> the mash temp is climbing to sacchrification temp, it spends some finite
> time at all those magic temps.

	I would argue that if you want to do a single infusion mash, don't 
pretend to be doing rests as well.  You can heat 12L of water to 170 F much 
faster than your mash, because you just crank up the heat and don't have to 
worry about scorching or uneven heating.  Generally, you don't have to "Guess"
at strike temp, you can aim a little low if you are worried, and boost a few 
degrees slowly, rather than trying to evenly heat a mash by 100 degrees.  If
you want to do rests, then do rests, but it still saves time to heat to your
initial strike temp, rather than heating from room temp.

>
>>2.  mash for 90 min.
>
> I know of no reason to mash for 90 minutes.  Most grain fully converts iN 30
> minutes or less.  45 mins should provide a reasonable guard band if you do
> not do the iodine test.

	It was reported in this digest a few months back that extending the 

mash beyond the minimum conversion time does in fact play a role in the 
flavour profile of the finished beer.  The reason we mash is to produce better
beer, not simply to convert starch to sugar.

**************
chris campanelli writes: 
>Well then you need the Homebrewer's Irradiation Unit(tm) today!
>
>A spinoff of food irradiation technology, this totally self- contained,
>portable unit is a homebrewers dream!  The scientists at NukeBru have spent
>hundreds of manhours in design and development in order to come up with this
>solution to all of your sanitation needs.
>
>It's fast and it's easy.  Pass your carboy or cornelius of beer through the
>Homebrewer's Irradiation Unit (tm) and zap those brewing yeasts, bacteria,
>wild yeasts and other nasties with a lethal dose of Gamma radiation.  It's
>that simple.

	Can it be run of the cold fusion energy generated by the 
counterflow chiller?

************
John J. Magee writes: 
>I have done a few batches of single-temp infusions
>using British pale malt; last night I thought I'd try  a step-infusion with
>Klages 2-row just for the hell of it. I believe in a thick mash; therefore I
>decided that the add-hot-water method detailed by Papazian was bad. I didn't
>want to watch the temp in my kettle continuously either. That's a pain and
>wastes heat. My only course of action, or so I thought, was to build an
>insulated box. I did it. It worked fine, but I was a bit frustrated when I
>thought of the following alternate method. It wouldn't
>equipment. I'm surprised this has never been brought up before, or discussed
>in one of the standard texts:
>
>1) Conduct the protein rest on the stove. Temps here can be a bit variable,
>so watching the kettle isn't that intensive. The short time involved means
>that any temp-maintenance heat used will be miniscule.
>
>2) Boost the mash to saccharification temp. Nail it just right. Dump it into
>a preheated picnic cooler set up. Proceed as with picnic-cooler single-temp
>infusion.
>
>The only drawback here is that you still can't do a mash-out. I think the
>mash-out is the most debatable part of the process, though, and I've never
>done it. No problems yet.
>
>I'm an avid fan of the round picnic cooler mash/lauter set-up. Cheap, easy,
>and perfectly insulated. I get 30 points extraction, so it's also fine for
>efficiency. Those who have read Miller, who says it's impossible to do
>step-infusion w/a cooler, fear not. I think the above method will work fine
>and I'm going to do it next time. Anyone want an insulated box?

	There are several people who perform an oven mash, which requires no 
insulated box.  There are variations, of course.  I pre-heat my oven to 200F,
heat the water to desired strike temp, mash in, stabilize the temp at the 
desired level, put the mash kettle in the oven and turn the oven off.  The 
mash stays at a nice even temp in a warm, insulated chamber while I walk the
dog.  This is easiest for a single infusion british ale, of course, if I want
to do steps It requires lots of lifting and bending.  This requires no extra 
equipment and you CAN do a mashout if you so desire.

____________   
Ed Hitchcock	ech at ac.dal.ca	| Oxymoron:  Draft beer in bottles. |
Anatomy & Neurobiology		| Pleonasm:  Draft beer on tap.     |
Dalhousie University, Halifax	|___________________________________|


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Date: 6 Jan 1994 13:33:06 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu>
Subject: Big brewing..Science/art?

                       Subject:                               Time:10:34 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Big brewing..Science/art?              Date:1/6/94
From: mfetzer at UCSD.EDU (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)

>>We filled 10 5 gallon carboys with beer, and pitched a different (ale)
>>yeast into each.  One is happily bubbling in my basement.  The next
>>fun comes in a month or so when we get together to taste them all!

>Seems to me, you blew it here! One batch, one boil... but how are you going
>to reconcile different yeasts *and* different ferment temps????
snip
>Your yeast, at 45F and your neighbors yeast at 55F are not the same in two
>ways, at least!



Good points, but let me add a few more, since I was involved in 
this too....I don't think that Spencer claimed this to BE science.  
We WERE aware that fermentatin temps would vary, but then again the 
optimum temps for the yeast strains vary too, so which temperature 
optimum do we pick?  All of the yeasts used were ales and ranged from 
Chico to Belgian. All of the brewers involved were highly experienced 
(I think that the least experienced has been brewing 5 years, most 
have been at it >10 years) so fermentations would be controlled 
between 65-70F (but more likely tighter, in the 65-68 range if I know 
these guys).  I think that 45 and 55F are out of the question.  We 
ALL have basement fermentation areas and I think none of us keeps a 
warm house this time of year. 

>Violated that old scientific method: change only one thing at a time!

But wait, there's more!  These will be conditioned differently, some 
(most) kegged, but some bottled.  They will be conditioned at different 
temps. They will be conditioned for different lengths of time as some 
yeasts work much faster than others (one of the strains is a 
notoriously SLOW fermenter).  At least the pitching volume and 
temperature was the same. Your points are valid of course, but I think 
this is a pretty good shot at a comparison without a single brewer 
doing ALL of the work.  

Brewing at the interface of Science and Art..........

DanMcC




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Date: 6 Jan 1994 13:26:15 -0500
From: "Daniel F McConnell" <Daniel_F_McConnell at mailgw.surg.med.umich.edu>
Subject: Big brewing..Science/art?

                       Subject:                               Time:10:34 AM
  OFFICE MEMO          Big brewing..Science/art?              Date:1/6/94
From: mfetzer at UCSD.EDU (The Rider) (Michael Fetzer)

>>We filled 10 5 gallon carboys with beer, and pitched a different (ale)
>>yeast into each.  One is happily bubbling in my basement.  The next
>>fun comes in a month or so when we get together to taste them all!

>Seems to me, you blew it here! One batch, one boil... but how are you going
>to reconcile different yeasts *and* different ferment temps????
snip
>Your yeast, at 45F and your neighbors yeast at 55F are not the same in two
>ways, at least!



Good points, but let me add a few more, since I was involved in 
this too....I don't think that Spencer claimed this to BE science.  
We WERE aware that fermentatin temps would vary, but then again the 
optimum temps for the yeast strains vary too, so which temperature 
optimum do we pick?  All of the yeasts used were ales and ranged from 
Chico to Belgian. All of the brewers involved were highly experienced 
(I think that the least experienced has been brewing 5 years, most 
have been at it >10 years) so fermentations would be controlled 
between 65-70F (but more likely tighter, in the 65-68 range if I know 
these guys).  I think that 45 and 55F are out of the question.  We 
ALL have basement fermentation areas and I think none of us keeps a 
warm house this time of year. 

>Violated that old scientific method: change only one thing at a time!

But wait, there's more!  These will be conditioned differently, some 
(most) kegged, but some bottled.  They will be conditioned at different 
temps. They will be conditioned for different lengths of time as some 
yeasts work much faster than others (one of the strains is a 
notoriously SLOW fermenter).  At least the pitching volume and 
temperature was the same. Your points are valid of course, but I think 
this is a pretty good shot at a comparison without a single brewer 
doing ALL of the work.  

Brewing at the interface of Science and Art..........

DanMcC




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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 14:00:20 EST
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: big brewing (followup)

Sheesh!  Before my mailbox fills up:

Yes, from the point of view of the yeast experiment, it would be
better to ferment them all in one place.  So it's only a
semi-controlled experiment.  So we're not perfect.  We'll still learn
something about the various yeast characters from it.

Previous experience points out how fermentation conditions are
important: 3 of us brewed a 15 gallon batch in August, pitched the
same yeast (from the same starter), and each took home a carboy.  The
three beers were similar, but distinct.  Without knowing the history,
you would probably have thought there were differences in the recipes.

=S

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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 1994 14:59:08 -0500
From: "George Cebulka, ECE Facilities" <george at taca.ece.cmu.edu>
Subject: List of suppliers.


     Could someone post or email me a pointer to a list of companies
selling hombrewing supplies? I tried the archive server at wang.com but
it does not seem to be responding. If this is info is in the FAQ of
this list, could someone email me a pointer to the FAQ?

	Thanks in Advance
	    George Cebulka, ECE Facilities, Carnegie Mellon

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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 94 15:09:27 EST
From: carlsont at GVSU.EDU (TODD CARLSON)
Subject: Yeast from bottles

          While reading through the Cat's Meow recipes, I saw that
          some recipes called for using yeast from bottles of
          micro-brew (Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, eg).  Just pour out
          the beer, add about a cup of sterile wort, stopper with
          fermentation lock and let ferment to get your yeast starter.
          $1.25 for yeast AND a bottle of really good beer seems to be
          a great bargain compared to $5.00 for a package of Wyeast.
          Does anyone out there do this regularly?  Is yeast from a
          bottle pure and reliable enough to get good results?  Is
          this too good to be true?  Thanks in advance for your info.

          todd

          carlsont at gvsu.edu

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Date: 06 Jan 94 13:24:44 EST
From: "Timothy R. Peters" <76307.3666 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Polyclar

Does anyone have any suggestions on the correct way to use Polyclar?
Dave Miller says he like to add it because it causes a massive evolution
of CO2 and helps to keep O2 and other undesirables out of his beer before
bottling/kegging.

It is true that if you add Polyclar directly to your beer it fizzes up
like crazy for a few seconds but, is it wise to add unsanitized polyclar
to your brew? 

If I add polyclar to boiling water and let it cool before I dump it in my
brew, I lose the fizz. Does it still work? Is it bad to boil it? Or is it
inert and I sholudn't be worrying about something living on it and just
pitch it straight?

Thank you in advance for your response,

 -trp 


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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 12:30:22 PST
From: bgros at sensitivity.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
Subject: priming with honey


>From my experience, the substitution of 1/2 cup honey for 3/4 cup
corn sugar is the right amount.  3/4 cup honey is too much for five
gallons (priming that is).

                                - Bryan

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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 1994 15:32:40 +0000 (U)
From: George Tempel <tempel at MONMOUTH-ETDL1.ARMY.MIL>
Subject: clip art coming soon...

                      clip art coming soon...
Just a note...

I haven't forgotten all of you who have asked for some brewing
clip art. I am still putting the collection together and perhaps will
actually get to post it to the ftp site here on HBD on monday!

Remember, the clip art collection is "brew/credit-ware": if you
use the artwork on your labels send me a bottle of the homebrew
and give me some credit for your label work, that's all!

posting/bottling soon!

george



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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 12:55:18 -0500
From: jeclark at ucdavis.edu (James Clark)
Subject: SS oatmeal stout/yeast energizer/primary

hello everone!

i know this is a little late, but to the person who asked about Sammie
Smith's Oatmeal Stout:

it is definitely not worth $17 a six pack.  
the first Sam Smith beer i ever had was the nut brown ale.  i had heard
that it was one of the best ales in the world, but i was very dissapointed.
 a little while later i decided to try it agian and it was excellent.  the
problem is that you can never tell how fresh it is, and that makes all the
difference in the world.
if you can get hold of some Anderson Valley Oatmeal Stout, try that.  i
like it better than Sammie's and it will be much fresher.  

now some questions:
1) for my last bach i used liquid yeast for the first time.  it didn't seem
to be doing too much after a day in the starter so i added some dextrose
and yeast energizer.  
so, what exactly is yeast energizer (sure smells gross) and is it a good
thing tst se or not?ioia ir) 
 hours of pitching the yeast was bubbling
away hapilly, so the stuff sure seemed to work.
2) the batch that was just bottled has a decidedly citrusy tang to it (it
is also sweet because the bulk extract i used had way too much
unfermentable sugar).  while it is not undrinkable, it is bordering on
unpleasant and definitely does not taste like proper beer.  anyone know
what causes this?  my guess is wild yeast, but i'm still a beginner.
3) the foam on my latest batch is just settling and has a very thick layer
of brown scum on the top.  i used the blowoff tube, but the foam didn't
quite make it to the top of the carboy.  will this stuff give the beer off
flavors if i let it settle?
4) with all the talk of sterilizing bottles, how does everyone sterilize
the caps?  Charlie says to boil them.  John Palmer says this will ruin the
gasket, which makes sense to me.  is it common practice to just soak them
in bleach, or are there more ingenuous ways to kill the bad critters
residing on them?

thanks in advance for all replies

- --james
  (jeclark at ucdavis.edu)
p.s. this homebrew thing has really got me.  i'm even thinking of minoring
in fermentation science at ucd (although i don't know how i'd ust 
conjunctioia ir)


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Date: Thu, 06 Jan 94 13:48
From: BMOORE.UNIX11 at mailsrv2.eldec.com (BMOORE)
Subject: guessless mashing

>From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)

>The most obvious is that there is no guessing about "strike" temp.
>Yousimply shut off the heat when you get there and add more as it
>cools to maintain temp.


Here's a technique I use to take the guesswork out infusion mashing.  It
involves calculating the thermal energy needed to raise the grist to the
proper temperature and balancing that with the thermal energy lost by
the strike water.  I use weight instead of volume for measuring quantity
of strike water.  This is surprisingly easy when you are doing 5 gallon
batches; larger batches could be more difficult.

Equipment needed:
Scale
Thermometer
Calculator

Step 1:
Weigh the grist.  Then calculate the quantity of strike water required.  I
typically use 2.2 to 2.4 pounds of water for each pound of grist.  This
number can range from 1.5 (a VERY stiff mash) to about 3.0

Step 2:
Start the strike water heating in the kettle.  Heat more than you think
you will need.  In the meantime, measure the temperature of the grist.
Bear in mind that dry malt is a poor heat conductor and you will have to
leave the thermometer in for quite a while.  (My  "instant read"
thermometer takes about 3 minutes to stabilize).  Moving the
thermometer around speeds this  up a bit.

Step 3:
Calculate the heat energy required to raise the grist to mash
temperature:
(apologies to our metric friends - all weights in Lbs, temps in F)

Lbs grist  x  0.431  x  (mash temp - grist temp)  =  BTU
required

Step 4:
The heat energy that the strike water needs to loose is (surprise)
EQUAL to the heat energy the grist has to gain; therefore:

Lbs water  x  1.0  x  (water temp - mash temp)  =  BTU required

for those rusty in algebra, this means:

water temp = mash temp +(BTU required / Lbs water)

NOTE: If your calculated water temp is much above 170 deg. F, you
might want to consider using more water or keeping your malt in a
warmer place

Step 5:
Heat the strike water about 10 - 15 degrees above the calculated water
temp.  Pour the water into the mash tun and adjust the weight to the
amount  calculated in Step 1.  I use a bathroom scale for this.  Just pick
up the tun with water, stand on the scale and subtract your weight and
the empty tun weight.
(hint - weigh yourself and the empty mash tun just before you add the
strike  water -- trips to the bathroom or refreigerator can shange your
weight by a  surprising amount!)
Stir the water a bit and let the mash tun warm up as the water cools
down.

Step 6:
At this point , you should have a tun full of the correct quantity of
strike
water several degrees above the desired temperature.  Cool the water
down by dipping some out with a saucepan (or whatever), raising it up
and pouring it back in.  The  clouds of steam indicate lots of heat being
lost by the water.( so THIS is how JS gets away with sparging with
boiling water!!)  If your temperature is over 10 degrees F high, dip out
some hot water and add an equal amount of cold.  (careful! a little cold
water goes a long way).

Step 7:
When the strike water is at the calculated temperature, gently stir in the
grist.  I prefer not to overstir the mash: this beats the air out of the
grist results in a "lakey" mash.   Wait a few minutes and check your
temperature  - it should be "right on"


Although the above steps sound a bit complicated, once you get the
hang of it, it's quite simple.  The constant 0.431 was arrived at
empirically.  By recording the temperatures and weights and resultant
mash temperature of a batch or two, you can back calculate a custom
constant for your set-up.

BTW - I have used this for more than 20 batches and am ALWAYS
within 1 degree F of where I want to be.  My mash tun is well insulated,
so I generally loose only 1 deg F during the hour my typical mash lasts.

XXXXXXXXXX
Re:
> NUKEBREW

Stranger than truth:  In the late 50's, articles were published in various
Brewing Journals concerning stabilization of packaged beer with Cobalt-
60 irridaiation.  As it turns out, irridation sufficient to sterilize the
beer produced "cooked" off flavors and the technique was abandoned!!!



Barry T. Moore
ELDEC Corp  - My opinions are my own
BMOORE.UNIX11 at mailsrv2.eldec.com





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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 14:56:30 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Water Analysis Followup

As a followup to my water analysis, I called the city engineer.  The original
data looks like this (previously posted):

 Parameter                     Min.  Avg.  Max. (6 month)
 ------------------------      ----- ----- -----
 Temperature (C)                 7.1  16.9  24.0
 pH (SU)                         7.1   8.7   9.6
 Fluoride                        0.3   0.9   1.2
 Alkalinity, Total              18.0  29.8  51.0
 Hardness, Total                 9.0  20.7  57.0
 Hardness, Calcium               8.0  17.8  45.0
 Dissolved Solids               22.0  68.0 128.0
 Trihalomethanes, Total (ppb)   55.2  70.1 114.2

I asked about the dissolved solids column.  He said that number is measured
from a filtration test with a .45 micron filter.  I'm not sure what it is
telling me, but that is how they get the number.  He said that the sodium level
is around 10-15 ppm and that magnesium is the delta between the "Total" and
"Calcium" hardness.  I suspect this is oversimplified.  He claimed that the
potassium and sulfate levels were below measurement threshold.  It is also
possible that they are just not tested for.  He said they do pH adjustment with
soda ash.  What is soda ash?  Also, the reason for the variability in the
numbers is that we get water from at least 3 different sources (soon to be
more), so each source has its own parameters.  Like I said before, "use the
averages and live with it".  It appears they take samples several times a day
since some of the numbers have 29 samples in the past week.  (my tax dollars at
work!).

Norm

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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 13:15:01 PST
From: Richard.Goldstein at EBay.Sun.COM (Richard Goldstein)
Subject: Advice needed on serving for large events


I'm looking for your advice, experiences, and lessons learned in
supplying homebrew for a large group. Here's my particular situation.

I am providing the beer for a friend's wedding. There will be about 80
people, and not a real heavy drinking crowd. I'm happy with the
quantity of 10 gals (approx 100 12 oz beers). This wedding reception
will be outdoors in early May in the Napa valley in CA, so it will
likely be warm (70s to 80s). The wedding will be fairly informal. I'm
pretty sure that there will be a tent for the food (buffet).

I do not have a kegging system; I normally bottle. It seem to me that
bottles present several problems. First, how do you get people to poor
it correctly? I don't think this will be a crowd that will get a charge
out of a mouthful of yeast. If there is a bartender, how do I get
him/her to do it properly? If I use bottles I would want to make nice
labels, but how do you keep them from coming off if the bottles are
kept cold in a tub of ice? And how do I prevent spoilage of the beers
from being in the sun (I do use brown bottles)?

Should I borrow/rent/buy kegs and a kegging set-up? I'd also be nervous
about using a kegging system for the first time at a big event like
this. It seems to take a lot of folks a while to get the kinks out of a
system.

What have other folks done? I don't want to spend the party manning the
beer station! Any and all advice appreciated.

Thanks for your help.

Richard Goldstein
richardg at cheesewiz.ebay.sun.com

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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 94 18:13:18 MST
From: birkelan at adtaz.sps.mot.com (Joel Birkeland)
Subject: diastatic power/souring beer

diastatic power:

What is the quantative interpretation of the diastatic power ratings
that some vendors supply with their malts?  If someone could supply a 
reference, I would appreciate it.

souring beer:

I would like to attempt a clone of Celis White.  I have a recipe which 
was posted here, but there were no details on how to make it sour.  Is there
a controlable way to get this sourness easily?  I have the Wyeast Belgian
Wit yeast #3944 (?); will this provide some of that sourness?

By the way, my homebrew shop has Wyeast's Brettanomyces Bruxellensis (sp?)
cultures.  What is this stuff good for?



Joel Birkeland		"Where in Hell is Tempe?"
Motorola SPS
Tempe, AZ			"Just about in the middle!"

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Date: Thu, 6 Jan 1994 21:45:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Scott Neumann <sneumann at world.std.com>
Subject: Chillin' Wort

Does anyone have any thoughts on using sterile ice to chill wort 
rather than using a conventional wort chiller?? Using 2 gallons of hot 
wort (say 200F) with 3 gallons of frozen water will bring you right to pitching 
temp. in seconds.  Can one cool too quickly? 

Scott
sneumann at world.std.com


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1318, 01/07/94