FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  First All-Grain Batch.  Help Me! (David Knight)
  On Tap magazine (ROSS)
  Full measures (GRAFTONG)
  Women, special hops: Stupid Stuff? (Derrick Pohl)
  Reinheitsgebot and wheat  (was: Re: A couple of quick que (Tilman Bohn)
  priming bombers (Martin Snow)
  Pale Ale Extract Recommendations (x-4851)" <Geiser at po1.rb.unisys.com>
  home library (JHENKE)
  Yorkshire recipes ("Phil Atkinson")
  Corsendonk recipe? (Gilchrist)
  Blackberry Stout (Christopher Alan Strickland)
  Homebrew Digest #1348 (Fe (Ari Jarmala)
  Epoxied nipple on keg brewkettle/inline hopback design question/plotting chest-freezer coup (Richard Dante)
  Full Pints (John DeCarlo              x7116          )
  Ice beer question (Michael T. Lobo)
  Re: Single stage v. Two stage fermentation (Jim Grady)
  Hops problem?/Some bad taste (8-293-5810 or (914))" <huckfinn at vnet.IBM.COM>
  water treatment suggestion (U-E68316-Scott Wisler)
  sterile starter cultures (GNT_TOX_)
  Re:  Cajun cookers (Rick Myers)
  Question about Wyeast Brett. (Joel Birkeland)
  Misc. Comments (Mark Worwetz)
  Hoplet Problems?/London Special Ale no more/pH and water chemistry HELP (npyle)
  Cap the Flame, folks ("Dan Z. Johnson")
  Bottled Water vs. Boiled Tap Water (Timothy Staiano)
  Looking for Old Peculiar recipe (ejf)
  Story for would-be all-grain brewers, etc. (Jeff Benjamin)
  first lager: when to rack? (Andy Rowan)


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For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at novell.physics.umr.edu



----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 13:31:03 EST
From: David Knight <dknight at ren.iterated.com>
Subject: First All-Grain Batch.  Help Me!


This weekend I am about to make the leap to all-grain and wanted to go over
my mash/lauter setup to see if I am doing anything outrageously wrong.  I
have spent many hours going over old issues of the HBD and reading up on
FAQs and I feel confident that my methods are sound.  Here goes:


MASH TUN:

Will use a 33 qt. enameled canning pot with no modifications.  This will
be heated on a standard gas stovetop (probably using two burners if I
can make it fit).  This will also be used for boiling after the sparge.


LAUTER TUN:

Will use a rectangular cooler with 1/2" slotted pipe structure on bottom with
standpipe for siphoning.

Note:  I chose separate mash/lauter tuns because I wanted to be able to 
add heat to my mash tun, but I did not like the idea of the copper pipe
structure being in the bottom of my kettle while I am trying to stir the
mixture during heating since it would get in the way and perhaps trap some
grain that may end up caramelizing or scorching.  Comments?


WORT CHILLER:

Will use 25' of 3/8" flexible copper tubing bent into a spiral placed inside
the boiling pot.  Cold tap water will run through the tubing while the wort
is very gently stirred.


That's it for new equipment.  Here is my planned procedure:

1)  Mix 10 lbs cracked Klages grain with 2.5 gallons 130 degree water in pot.
    The resulting mixture should be around 122 degrees.  Hold for 15 minutes,
    then add heat to raise to 131 degrees.  Hold for another 15 minutes to
    complete protein rest.  Is this enough water?  Should I add more water
    after the protein rest?  Should the pot be preheated?

2)  Raise temperature to about 155 degrees and hold until starch conversion
    is complete.  I plan to cover the pot and add heat every 5-10 minutes
    as needed.  I will use an iodine test to confirm conversion -- is that
    accurate or should I wait a specified amount of time instead?

3)  Add cracked specialty grains (1 lb crystal) and mix.

4)  Raise temperature to 170 degrees slowly (over about 15 minutes) 
    and hold 10 minutes for mashout.

5)  Preheat cooler with 170 degree water.  Is this step really necessary?

6)  Ladle grain mixture into the cooler and mix thoroughly.  Begin siphoning
    and pour first runnings back into cooler until runnings are clear.
    Completely drain all wort from cooler.

7)  Add 4 gallons of 170 degree water.  Begin siphoning and pour first runnings
    back into cooler until runnings are clear.  Drain runnings until wort
    is no longer sweet and/or SG drops below 1.010.  I expect to completely
    drain all of the 4 gallons, leaving me with (hopefully) 6.5 gallons in
    the pot.  I understand the grain will absorb a fair amount of water so
    I obviously need to add more water somewhere in my process.  Where?

8)  Continue with the boil as with extract method.


Any comments/suggestions are strongly encouraged, even if it's just
"Sounds good.  Should work".  Thanks in advance for your help.


 -Dave Knight

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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 13:47 EST
From: ROSS at mscf.med.upenn.edu
Subject: On Tap magazine

Date sent:  16-FEB-1994 13:45:58 

I believe I saw a mention in the BarleyCorn newspaper that there was a beer
newspaper specific to eastern Pennsylvania called "On Tap".  Does anybody
have an address or any other information about this publication.  Thanks.

			--- Andy Ross ---
                    University of Pennsylvania

                    ross at mscf.med.upenn.edu

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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 9:52
From: GRAFTONG at vms1.bham.ac.uk
Subject: Full measures

Sorry to get in on this late - winter happened here and I couldn't get
to work.
Somebody mentioned that in the UK we have legislation to ensure full
pints.  Sadly we don't.  In the late 1980s the government promised to
legislate to the effect that publicans would have to use lined glasses
and serve a full 20 oz pint.  This legislation came to be known as Section
43 (from the large bill of which it was a part).  Last month the
government renaged and refused to pass section 43 under pressure from
brewers who claimed it would cost them money!  The more cynical amongst
us see a connection with the fact that the brewing industry contributes
thousands of pounds to the Tory party each year.
The present guidelines issued by the government allow publicans to serve
a pint which is within 5% of a full pint, effectively we are getting
19 oz "pints".  At the instigation of CAMRA, local trading standards
officers (whose job is to protect consumers rights) are carefully
checking pubs across the country.  Many prosecutions for short measures
are pending.  Chris Armstrong, the chief trading standards officer in the
London Borough of Newham, is quoted as saying "For years drinkers have been
fiddled".  CAMRA continues to campaign on this issue.  The only thing we as
consumers can do is to complain when shortchanged and then take our custom
elsewhere.  I agree with the contributor who said that a pint should mean
a pint, and not whatever definition the publican choses.  I look forward
to the day when this is true.

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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 1994 12:03:41 -0800
From: pohl at unixg.ubc.ca (Derrick Pohl)
Subject: Women, special hops: Stupid Stuff?

In reply to Domenick Venezia <venezia at ZGI.COM> and his "Flame on Stupid
Stuff" criticizing those who would sodden the purity of HBD with discussion
of matters such as women brewers or cannabis additives:  I disagree with
Domenick on both counts.  Getting women involved in brewing, or any other
endeavour where they are traditionally excluded, is an important subject
and appropriately discussed in HBD.  Ditto the info on brewing with special
hops.  Nobody is going to force you to brew with these ingredients, so just
skim past that post if you're not interested.  A lot of brewers are
interested, and if they are willing to risk judicial harrassment for the
sake of sharing knowledge, that's their decision to make.  The vitriolic
anti-cannabis diatribe was not only ill-informed and prejudiced but
somewhat hypocritical as well, unless you only swirl your brew in your
mouth and then spit it out to avoid ingestion of any of that nasty
psychoactive ethanol.

I share the widespread concern over the signal to noise ratio in HBD, but
at the same time we should not let that concern too narrowly restrict what
can be discussed here.  There's more to life, and certainly to brewing,
than endless discussions of stainless steel keg fittings and counter-flow
chillers (as exciting as these topics admittedly are).  A diverse range of
subjects and opinions is what keeps a digest like HBD alive and, most
importantly, fun!

- -----
Derrick Pohl <pohl at unixg.ubc.ca>, Faculty of Graduate Studies
University of British Columbia, Vancouver, B.C.



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Date:         Wed, 16 Feb 94 15:29:31 EST
From: Tilman Bohn <TBOHN00 at UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Reinheitsgebot and wheat  (was: Re: A couple of quick que

Sorry, folks, wrong subject at first. Here goes again:

I wrote:

> On Mon, 14 Feb 94 12:24 EST, Andrew Pastuszak,
> <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU> wrote:
>
> >Subject:  A couple of quick questions
> >
> >If the Rheinheiotsgebot(sp?) only allows the use of malted
> >barley, water, hops, and yeast, how did the Germans come up with wheat
> >beer?
>
> The _Reinheitsgebot_ (unlike the river _Rhein_, Reinheit (= purity) is spelled
> without the "h" -- Thank God, since, in our days, the Rhein is not exactly a
> display of purity... %-L  ) states explicitly that a beer is to contain only
> what you
> said -- *EXCEPT* for wheat beer, in which case wheat is allowed as well. :-)
>
> As an aside (I *know*, I'm wasting bandwidth... ;-) ), of course, some years
ago
> (I think in '89 or so) the _RG_ had to be put out of effect in order to comply
> with
> EC legislation, so that now everybody can import all kinds of *terrible* beers
> (theoretically, that is -- they wouldn't sell.), but German breweries pride
> themselves in still adhering to it.
>
> Cheers,
>                      Tilman
>
> P.S.: Sorry for the spacing, I wrote this offline and forgot to shorten the
>       lines...

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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 15:38:46 -0500
From: snow at lyrae.DNET.NASA.GOV (Martin Snow)
Subject: priming bombers

I've recently acquired a bunch of 0.5 liter bottles (16.9 oz) and was thinking
about putting my next batch in them.  I was wondering if I should reduce the
amount of priming sugar since they're a little bigger than your average bottle,
or will the usual (3/4 cup) corn sugar be ok.  I wouldn't want to end up with
stout geysers! 

Any comments from experienced bomber-bottlers?

Thanks,
Martin Snow
snow at lyrae.dnet.nasa.gov

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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 12:52:00 PST
From: "GEISER, Chris (x-4851)" <Geiser at po1.rb.unisys.com>
Subject: Pale Ale Extract Recommendations


I would like to make a Pale Ale from an extract and was wondering if anyone 
can recommend a specific brand I could use. Private e-mail to 
geiser at unisys.com is welcome.
TIA,
Chris Geiser
geiser at unisys.com
619-451-4851

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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 16:11:46 EST
From: JHENKE at ucs.indiana.edu
Subject: home library

Can anyone suggest books for the intermediate home beer/wine maker? I have
only rudimentary equipment because I have a small apartment, smaller budget
and large agile cat: two buckets with airlocks, a closet full of bottles
and a bathtub.

				JJ Henke
				jhenke at ucs.indiana.edu

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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 13:31:00 PST
From: "Phil Atkinson" <PHATKINS at BCSC02.GOV.BC.CA>
Subject: Yorkshire recipes

To: HOMEBREW--INTERNET homebrew at hpfcmi.fc HOMEBREW--INTERNET homebrew at hpfcmi.fc


- -------
Regards,
Phil Atkinson
F&CR, Communications Branch   Phone:  387-9285
*** Forwarding note from PHATKINS--BCSC02   02/16/94 13:17 ***
To: EF94    --INTERNET ef94 at cleveland.Fre


Hi Mark

You'll probably hear a lot of crap about regional differences in England sent
by people who have read about them in one place or another. Much of the
mystique of ale is apocryphal, so take it with a pinch of salt. Including
this!

I grew up in northern England and I've been making beer since Adam was a lad.
The north of England by tradition has beers that lean more toward malt than
hops. That may be because it's colder there than in the south and naturally a
maltier beer is a heavier sensation, giving the feeling of warmth. Like the
food, it's robust, flavoursome and hearty. The southern style of ale tends
more towards hops. Again, the difference may be due to weather dictating the
local preference and must also be influenced by the fact that all the hops are
grown in the south.

Since the 1960s national brands have more or less levelled the field regarding
regional preference - hence the rise of CAMRA and its success -- lately just
about every beer available in the north  is available in the south, and vice
versa. You will read time and time again about the `classic' brews such as
Newcastle Brown, Sam Smith's Pale Ale, Theakston's Old Peculier etc. but in
fact these beers are not at all typical. The preferred beer stye in the north,
as everywhere else in Britain, is draught bitter. That means that anything in
a bottle is somewhat of a specialty. I don't know if you brew draught, but the
recipe formulation is a bit different from stuff you intend to bottle. You can
get a good draught beer by putting the brew into one of those Keg o' Wine
boxes. They work fine. Here's my recipe and as I'm from the north of England
(a Geordie, in fact) I say it's as authentic as you can get!:

8lb pale malted barley 1/2lb crystal malt 1/4lb wheat malt.Crush & mash at
170F for 1.5hours or until Starch End Point

boil for 1.5 hours with 1oz Fuggles 2oz Goldings

cool rapidly without aerating and when down to about 70F pitch any good, clean
ale yeast. Preferrably fresh berwer's yeast or a liquid yeast (such as Wyeast)
Dried yeast is pretty crap for brewing but if it's all you can get...

Ferment at around 65-75 until it drops to 1.020 then get it into a secondary
and leave it alone for about three weeks. It shopuld have started about 1.045
but if it was short of that it is OK to add up to 1/2 lb white sugar to get
the corrwect initial gravity. The sugar will make some people cringe but they
don't count. Be sure to boil the sugar with a little malic acid 1/4 tsp for
five minutes to invert it, otherwise you'll get yuckly off-flavours.

When the brew is down to a stable gravity - less than 1.012, or if it has read
the same for about a week and is clear, fill the ex-Keg o' Wine plastic bag up
and add about 1tsp of white sugar. Shake to disperse and screw on the tap.
This will swell up after a day or two and it is ready to drink. If you don't
do it in all at once, you will have to reprime it with another tbs of sugar.
Better just to drink it all though! The remainder can go into bottles or
another wine bag.

The length of time in the secondary is where this beer gets its balls. I
suggest a minimun of two weeks.

Let me know how it goes

cheers, Phil Atkinson

- -------
Regards,
Phil Atkinson
F&CR, Communications Branch   Phone:  387-9285

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Date:  Wed, 16 Feb 94 16:53 EST
From: Gilchrist at DOCKMASTER.NCSC.MIL
Subject:  Corsendonk recipe?

Fellow brewers- does anyone out there have a good extract or
extract/grain recipe for Corsendonk?  Private e-mail ok.  TIA.  Tom

gilchrist at dockmaster.ncsc.mil

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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 18:03:02
From: Christopher Alan Strickland <beach!chris at cocoa12.ksc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Blackberry Stout

There is a recipe in the Cat's Meow on making blackberry stout.
(Page 8-3), sounds good, but the only thing that worries me is a
statement in the comments area that states "...prime in 4-6 weeks
but rapidly deteriorates from there, acquiring a winey flavor...".
I plan on making this, but with the cost of blackberries I'll a
little leary.  Has anyone tried this recipe and did they like it.
Has anyone made a blackberry stout or ale, was it good, and what's
the recipe (in detail).  Thanks for any comments.


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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 01:06:00 +0200
From: ari.jarmala at mpoli.fi (Ari Jarmala)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1348 (Fe


Steve Amblad writes in HBD #1348:

HO>Is anyone ever going to discuss homebrewing/beer-related issues on
HO>this digest?  I read this thing for advice on brewing.  It seems like
HO>very few articles nowadays are about this subject.   There are plenty
HO>of knowledgable brewers out there.  Share your brewing expertise,
HO>please!

Ask something and we'll answer.

If you don't know what to ask, buy a good book like Miller or
Papazian.

   - Ari J{rm{l{


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Date: Wed, 16 Feb 94 18:52:43 PST
From: rdante at icogsci1.UCSD.EDU (Richard Dante)
Subject: Epoxied nipple on keg brewkettle/inline hopback design question/plotting chest-freezer coup




First off I'd like to thank all the people who responded to my
question about a month ago about cooler mash-lauter tuns. I would like
to get a 10 gallon Gott cooler,  but in the interests of cheapness I
might settle for a small 34 qt rectangular cooler (about $11) and use
either a slotted copper manifold or an easymasher-style fitting.  Who
knows, maybe I'll stop lusting after the Gott 10 gallon "Tower of
Power" (One of my respondants called it this :) )


INLINE HOPBACK DESIGN

I'll start with this topic since it's a question. All the other stuff
is a long-winded account of my experiences drilling and epoxying a
brass nipple to my keg kettle.

I'm interested in making an inline hopback that will attach to the
1/2" ball valve on my kettle after which I will have my counterflow
wort chiller attached. I know about the Kinney Baughmann method of
using a canning jar with a chore-boy copper scrubber/filter. Instead
of that design I'd like to do the following:



             !----------------!
             ! hops           !
             !          ::::: !
from kettle ====        :   ===== to CF chiller
             !          ::::: !
             ! hops           !
             !----------------!


This would basicalling be an easymasher threaded into some capped PVC
pipe. Whole hops would be stuffed into the cavity. Any reason why this
wouldn't work well?  I could tilt the chiller end upwards to purg the
air bubbles after starting the wort flow. Then I could have it face
down. Hell, I could just mount it on a 1/2" threaded copper elbow and
rotate it up/down by tightening/loosening half a turn.


FILTERING COLD BREAK?

Do any of you have any comments for the idea of building a second of
the above described hopbacks and instead of filling it with hops,
stuffing it loosly with cheesecloth and attaching at the cold outlet
of a counterflow chiller.  Any ideas if it would be effective in
filtering out cold break,  or the cheesecloth just clog up with
cold-trub. Or would it not filter cold-break at all?





KEGS AND NIPPLES

I received my $42.50 (plus $16 shipping :() stainless half-barrel keg
with the top cut out from BCI a few weeks ago. Cosmetically it is
pretty beat up.  It has some pretty big dents, a lot of deep
scratches, and a good amount of exterior corrosion. Well, if I want to
make it look better I can always wire brush it with a
wire-brush-on-a-drill (I tried this on a spot and it at least makes it
looks shiny).  Last night I was at a HomeBase looking for another
Hunter AirStat (I was able to find one, the last one, on the weekend
for $19.90. Despite missing directions and missing warranty card I saw
this purchase as a major coup since the suckers are getting hard to
find except at the brewstore where they are $47). ANYWAYS, I ended up
purchasing 2 4X1/4" brass nipples, a 1/4" brass coupler, 2 1/4" to
1/2" brass adapters, a 1/2" threaded brass ball valve, and a 1/2"
brass apapter that'll fit the 3/8" ID vinyl hose leading to my
counterflow wort chiller.  I had contemplated buying a $40
oxygen/propane torch to braze the stuff on but finally I bought some
stuff for about $6. It's called "Copper Bond" and it's a food-grade
epoxy resin. It's meant to replace soldering copper sweat fittings.
The guy in the hardware section recommended it when was asking about
brazing brass onto my stainless brewkettle. I asked, "Should I braze
it?" and he replied, "I recommend that you use epoxy. The stuff is
wickedly strong."  I also bought 1/2" and 1/8" cobalt bit$ do drill my
half inch hole.  Good thing I went with epoxy cuz the hole I drill
didn't look to pretty. It took HOURS and I went through almost 4 fully
charged packs on my 12V Makita. Stainless is definitely TOUGH SHIT to
drill. I'm no good with ascii graphics but I think a description
should do the trick. One of the nipples fits in the hole (a few blows
with a hammer got it in without damaging the threads). That's epoxied
in place. It seems REALLY strong and it was rock hard in about an
hour. The coupler is for my other brass nipple to which I'll clamp on
some rolled up SS screen a la easymasher.  On the outside I screw on
the 1/4 to 1/2 threaded adapter and then the 1/2" brass ball valve.
I'll probably use teflon tape each time I assemble the outside
components. Then the brass hose barb fits on the end to which my vinyl
hosing fits.  I was happy with the price of all the goodies EXCEPT for
the stinkin 1/2" cobalt bit. That was $13.50. My 30 piece drill bit
set which goes all the was up to 1/2" cost only $17 so I was bummed
here.  I'll be sure to mention how this works when I get around to
brewing.  It doesn't leak and I expect it won't so I'd consider it a
cheap alternative to welding and easy (and probably stronger) than soldering.



I HAVE A DREAM...

I've been having troubles with stuck fermentations from huge
temperature shifts. This got me thinking (often) about brewing in a
fridge with a hunter airstat. After kicking myself for not keeping our
old fridge (a month after we moved in last summer our fridge defrost
timer died. Our Landlord got us a new one and we got rid of the old
one. I wasn't brewing yet and that's too bad because the partition
seperating the freezer section from the fridge came out easy and the
defrost timer problem wouldn't be a problem for a brewfridge) I
started think about how much I could stuff into a fridge. So I
measured my carboys and made some paper models of a frdige, carboys,
and kegs.  The advantages of a chest freezer became obvious AND THEN I
HAD A VISION: My Parent's chest freezer! A friend gave them an upright
freezer and the chest freezer in the garage that I grew up with is
sitting idle.  I called up my parents and the thing is a 22 cu footer!
My mom said she'll measure the inside for me some day.  From my memory
of the rough size and reconstructing dimensions to fit with the 22
cuft, I would guess that I could hold about 6 carboys, 4 cornelius
kegs, and many cases of homebrew. Maybe even some extra food. I'm
plotting my coup already. Actually, mom and dad will let me take it,
but until I can transport it from Monterey to San Diego, I can only
dream. My Airstat is waiting... :)



Rick Dante
rdante at ucsd.edu







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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 07:49:40 EST
From: John DeCarlo x7116 <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: Full Pints

While the status of a "pint" in the U.S. may be undefined, in the U.K, 
it isn't so great, either.  The front page of the CAMRA newspaper, 
What's Brewing, for December 1993 is about this problem.

"Trade Secretary Michael Heseltine has been accused of 'a disgusting 
piece of crawling to vested interests' after his decision last month not
to force brewers and publicans to serve full pints."

The recommendation by many, including CAMRA, is to use 22 oz. glasses 
with a line at the pint measure, and ensure that the liquid level 
reaches this line.

"Trading standards officers--who estimate that drinkers lose 400 million
[pounds] a year through short measure--" ...



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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 08:01:16 EST
From: mlobo at foxboro.com (Michael T. Lobo)
Subject: Ice beer question

Greetings:
	Whats all this I hear about Ice beer? ( I sound like Rosann Rosanadana ).
Is this going to be a market fad like Dry beer, or does it have some merits?

I have tried ( and liked ) EKU28, even though I'm not quite sure what it is
they use the ice/low temps for.  As far as the Bud & Molsen products go - 
does anyone know what it is they are doing and also why they are doing it.

I tried to _Ice brew_ me last batch like Molsen Ice (TM), but the pot just
sat in the snow bank and my extraction rate was quite poor {:^).

regards,
Michael
_______________________________
Michael T. Lobo   508 549 2487
Foxboro Co.
mlobo at foxboro.com  "I Love beer, beer loves me; when I drink too much, 
my beer speaks for me" -Monty


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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 8:17:05 EST
From: Jim Grady <grady at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: Re: Single stage v. Two stage fermentation

Scott asks about the merits of two-stage fermentation:

I have been using mostly 2 stage fermentation now for a while - even for
my ales that are bottled about 2 weeks after pitching.  The primary
reason I do it (no pun intended) is that I find I get a clearer beer in
the bottle with less yeast sediment.  I can often pour out the whole
bottle without getting any yeast in the glass.  I have done this most
successfully with Wyeast London Ale and Wyeast Bavarian Lager.  Since
there seems to be less yeast in the bottle, it does seem to take a week
or two longer to condition.
- --
Jim Grady             
grady at hp-mpg.an.hp.com

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 07:55:24 CST
From: nfarrell at ppco.com (Norman Farrell)

Subject:   Queen O' Beer

Steve (no s) Daniel <71161.2610 at CompuServe.COM> writes:

>Increasing the diversity of the home-brewing population is a noble cause.
>If, however, the responses generated by the mere mention of a women-only
>competition is any indication of the outcome, then I fear it will do more
>harm than good.

I have not tallied the HBD responses to the original posting so I can 
not say whether opinion is for or against.  Even so, I don't know that
the opinion of the negative postings is representative of homebrewers
at large.  I for one am in favor of increasing the diversity of the
homebrewing population and I think the "Queen of Beer" competition is
a great idea.  I wish the organizers and participants the very best of
luck.

I also hope I live to see that day that such a contest would either be
unnecessary or noncontroversial.  While I respect the opnions of the
posters who thought the idea was sexist (not you Steve :^)), I hope 
the _fact_ that all minorities are truly minorities in homebrewing
will make a few wonder why.  I agree that once you have your beer
entered in a competition, the playing field is level for all.  There
are however barriers to participation by women.  Just go talk to a 
few who have been involved for awhile.

Women were (once upon a time) the brewers of society.  Men took it
over when it became commercially viable.  There are other instances
of this phenomenon but that's another digest.  Merely creating what
men perceive as a level playing field is not a good enough welcome
back IMHO.

The Queen of Beer competition does not offend my sensibilities.  And
I suggest that calling it sexist is going overboard.  We can all choose
how we percieve the world (to some extent anyway).  How about seeing
the potential for good in this and not jumping on any potentially
negative aspect?                                        

Long live the "Queen of Beer".


Norman (nfarrell at ppco.com)


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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 07:36:43 EST
From: "Paul Austin (8-293-5810 or (914))" <huckfinn at vnet.IBM.COM>
Subject: Hops problem?/Some bad taste

I have an Amber which, for lack of fluency in proper beer descriptors,
tastes a bit like a homemade tanning solution.  It also tastes and
smells like a raw herbal tea - a very bitter, old-world-herbal-
medicinal smell to it.

I followed the same recipe that I did with a previous and successful
amber batch, except that I added 1.4lbs more malt to the original
5.5lbs malt, 1lb sugar recipe.  The hops are Cascade, 1oz for 15minute
boil, 1oz for 2minutes at the end of boil.

I noticed a lot of green scum on top the wort, too.  How can I avoid
this in the future?  Is it possible that I boiled too long?  Were the
hops 'bad'?  Will this flavour 'age out'?

HELP! and thanks!
Paul Austin
Huckfinn at vnet.ibm.com

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 10:15:19 EST
From: U-E68316-Scott Wisler <wisler_scott at ae.ge.com>
Subject: water treatment suggestion

In HBD 1351, a water treatment help request was made. (I inadvertently
deleted the post).  It basically looked like:
        ca  ~90s   
        bicarb ~200s
        sulfate 260
        chloride `13
        probably a high ph?
        and Boiling didn't help.
        

What about adding calcium chloride, cacl2?  Your chlorides are low and
under Miller's target of 50 ppm  (correct ?).  This should acidify your
water and boost the calcium.  Both the higher calcium level and higher
acidity (lower pH) should help percipitate calcium carbonate (chalk) in
a boil.  

CaCl2 may be hard to find.  I got a pound from my wife, who used it in
an elementary school science demo, but there is some question as to its
USP status.  I have a letter in to DOW to find out more.

Latic acid may indeed help percipitate come carbonate.  My water here
north of Cincy is very similar to Miller's St. Louis water (probably due
to the treatment technique) so I haven't had to worry about carbonates.


scott


Scott Wisler
swisler at c0431.ae.ge.com
GE Aircraft Engines
Cincinnati, OH




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Date:     Thu, 17 Feb 94 10:33 EST
From: <GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU>
Subject:  sterile starter cultures

I'm planning on making some sterile starter cultures.  I wanted to use
amber bottles and autoclave the starters in order to make them
completely (We have a nice autoclave at work).  Does DME stand up well
to autoclaving?  Will I still need to boil the starters, or can I just
dissolve and cook?

Andy Pastuszak
Philadelphia, PA
Internet:  GNT_TOX_%ALLOY.BITNET at PUCC.PRINCETON.EDU


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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 9:02:15 MST
From: Rick Myers <rcm at col.hp.com>
Subject: Re:  Cajun cookers

> From: rprice at cbmse.nrl.navy.mil
> Subject:  Cookers etc.

> 1)  Following the trend on cookers,  if you check Sams Club (usual
> disclaimer), you will often find not only the cajun cookes but another crab
> cooker version about 35,000 btu.  They run around $75.00, and come

Most cajun-type cookers are 100,000+ BTU.  The local Sam's Club here
has the "King Cooker"(tm) for $55.00.  The manual that comes with
it says it has 170,000 BTU output.  It comes with a frying pot with
basket, and removable legs.

Rick "that's what I bought, for only $55.00 " Myers
Colorado Springs, CO

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 09:08:45 MST
From: birkelan at adtaz.sps.mot.com (Joel Birkeland)
Subject: Question about Wyeast Brett.

I asked HBD recently about what to do with the new Wyeast
Brettanomyces culture, and received no response.  I thought I would
give it another try.

The Wyeast flyer at the local homebrew shop says this can be used to
brew Lambics.  Having read the recent posts on the subject, I realize
that this is gross oversimplification, if not misinformation.  However,
this begs the question: "What is this stuff good for?"  Certainly Wyeast
had something in mind when they made this product available.

There was an article in Brewing Techniques stating that in the old
days, porters typically had a secondary Brett. fermentation, so I guess
this is an application.  Are there others out there?  Does anyone buy this
stuff?

Also, the fact that all of the packages that I have seen are puffed up
tells me that this stuff may keep eating after S. cerevisiae goes
to sleep.  Must the resulting beer be pasteurized or filtered to prevent
exploding bottles?

Also, in Eric Warners book, he states that Weizen yeast is S. cerevisiae.
I have seen otherwise here.  I guess this is a taxonomic debate.

Thanks,

Joel

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 09:08:49 -0700 (MST)
From: Mark_Worwetz at Novell.COM (Mark Worwetz)
Subject: Misc. Comments

Hey all from Zion!

I recently posted a request for an extract based recipe for Spaten
Optimator dopplebock.  This request was followed by a few follow ups from
HBDers who wanted the recipes I received.  Unfortunately, there has been
NO RESPONSE.  Is it because I asked for extract recipes or because nobody
else likes Spaten Optimator?  Hmmm. ;-)

In addition, I have recently started using a poor mans wort chiller with
much success (temperature wise), but was wondering if any of the chemists
out there can see a problem with the idea.  I have been freezing a 2 1/2
gallon jug of water, sanitizing it, and then plopping it like a big ice
cube into my brewpot.  It cools the wort to about 120 degrees in about 
5 minutes.  I then add it to some chilled Salt Lake City well-water.
Instant pitching temp. of 68 degrees!   QUESTION: Is there a problem with
putting plastic in the brewpot?  (It is NOT touching the bottom!)

For you Wasatch fronters out there, there is a new homebrew shop at 5020
South State in Murray, UT.  Dave's Homebrew Supply.  He is informative,
has competitive prices with Art's on similar products.  His shop is very
small and he is not yet carrying bulk extract or grain, but says he
should be in about a month.  Very convenient location if you live 
in the South part of the Valley.  (usual no-affiliation disclaimer!)

Mark
Mark_Worwetz at Novell.COM

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 9:31:31 MST
From: npyle at n33.stortek.com
Subject: Hoplet Problems?/London Special Ale no more/pH and water chemistry HELP

John Wheaton mentions some poor quality hops he received from the UK.  I
brewed a bitter a couple of months ago, dry hopped with Fuggles.  I was not
overjoyed with the taste of this beer, although others seemed to like it
fine.  I decided I'd only use those hops as kettle hops from now on.  It
seems silly, but I haven't really inspected the hops that closely.  I've
always had such good luck with hops in the foil pouches, I guess I just
jumped to some conclusions.  I assumed that I didn't like this batch of hops,
rather than assuming that they had been poorly handled.  Of course, you can't
see the entire half-ounce when looking at a plug, but I'll check the aroma
next time I think about it.

**

I have a Best Bitter in the primary right now using "Special ESB London, but
not *London* Ale" yeast.  Jeff Frane's comments are making me thirsty
(Y-E-A-S-T!, Gooooo yeast!!)...  I'll report on my results.  BTW, it is
fermenting at a room temperature of 62-64F, so it is not likely to be done
very soon.

**

William Kuhn asks about his water analysis.  Having recently gone through
this myself, I fell compelled to reply.  Unfortunately, I'm not anywhere near
expert enough (give me another week) to give you definite answers.  I
strongly suggest you consult Miller's chapter on water, if you haven't
already.  Your water is hard, and sometimes the treatment for that is
boiling.  Probably the best way to see if the carbonates are too high for a
pale is to do a test mash.  Check the pH.  If it is too high, then your
carbonates are too high.  Boiling will help but it only gets you so far;
check out what Miller has to say.  I _can_ say the treatment is definitely
different for brewing pales, browns, and pilsners.

Cheers,
Norm

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Date: 17 Feb 94 11:27:42 EST
From: "Dan Z. Johnson" <75430.3532 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Cap the Flame, folks

malodah at pbgueuze.scrm2700.PacBell.COM (Martin Lodahl) replies to the too long
running discussion of s/n ratio and the lowering of the level of conversation on
the HBD.

>>Just exactly so:  as long as the discussion is heavy in noise and light
on signal, the very people HBD needs most will have _no_ incentive
to participate.  Why on earth _should_ they?

Hey, things change. If people with something substantial have something to say,
it will be a substatial conversation. If they opt to drop out, then whose fault
is it that the quality of the forum suffers? In a s/n ratio there is both signal
and noise. Maybe the problem isn't the noise level, but the signal level. What
do you say we cap the flame and move on? 
 -Z


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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 11:23:29 -0500 (EST)
From: Timothy Staiano <tstaiano at ultrix.ramapo.edu>
Subject: Bottled Water vs. Boiled Tap Water

Pardon my ignorance, as I am only a simple extract brewer, but I was told 
by my local brewstore The Home Brewery (no connections, blah blah blah) 
and a member of a local brewclub The Worthogs (same as above) that it is 
ok to use store bought bottled water (I use Poland Spring).  What I 
usually do is boil 2 gal for my concentrated wort and while I am 
heating,boiling, etc.  place the other 3 bottles in the freezer
until they have a slush-like consistency.  I then pour the 
partially-frozen water into my 6 gal. plastic fermenter (don't flame too 
hard, I sunburn eaisly) followed by my fresh off the stove wort (I don't 
own a wort chiller, is HSA a _big_ problem, I really havn't noticed a 
difference), cool my fermenter in an ice-water bath, pitch and wait.

What I would like to know is, am I risking possible contamination.  If 
so, at what point would I notice this (ie. in fermentation, after 
extended bottled periods)?  And if I do use strictly use tap water, do I 
have to boil the other 3 gal. of water? What if I don't?  I've brewed 5 
batches using the bottled water method and so far (as I can tell) havn't 
seen any contamination.

Thanks in advance for any answers/advice that I may receive.  Please 
e-mail to save bandwidth.  There's already enough noise on the HBD as it 
is.  Even though I've only been on for about 3 months, this latest round 
of flames regarding "gender specific" competitions is moot already.  
Let's move on to a new subject already (how about ignorant novices like 
myself?)

Have a Hoppy!

Tim Staiano <tstaiano at ultrix.ramapo.edu>


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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 08:38:06 -0800
From: Don Put <dput at csulb.edu>

Subject: MALTMILL motor

>From: "Dan Z. Johnson" <75430.3532 at CompuServe.COM>

<snipped some good advice here about mill safety>

>Second (or "B"), don't try to run it much faster than hand-crank speed. 
>Others may disagree on this, but I found that the higher the speed, the 
>poorer the grind. Lots of flour and torn husks.

I do not find this to be true if the rollers are correctly adjusted.  However,
my MALTMILL runs at below 200rpms without the added hassle of a mandrel/jack
shaft set up.  See below.

>Third, devise a way to clamp the motor, mill and receiving bucket together. I

I bought the universal bandsaw/other tool stand from Sears for about $32.00
on sale.  It makes for a very nice mill and motor base; a five gallon pail fits
beneath it and there is minimal dust floating around as the mill is 
operating.

<good advice on cabinet snipped>

<pulley arrangement snipped>

My math tells me that a 2 inch pulley (at 1725rpm) driving a 5 inch pulley,
which in turn drives another 2 inch pulley that drives a 6 inch pulley on
the mill results in a mill speed of 230 rpm.  Not 125 rpm as Dan suggested.
Perhaps my math is in error or there was a typo in Dan's post?

I used a 1.5 inch pulley on my motor, which runs at 1725, and a 12 inch pulley
on my mill.  The pitch diameter of these pulleys are 1.35 and 11.85 inches,
respectively.  Some simple math results in 11.85/1.35 = 8.777777.  Thus,
1725/8.77777 = 196.5 rpm.  This is approximately what Dan gets with his
shaft setup (actually, it's a bit lower).  I don't really think that the mill
speed is that critical as long as you don't get too carried away.  As Jack 
told me:  "The faster it goes; the faster it goes."  I found this pulley 
arrangement easier than the extra shaft arrangement.  YMMV.  

The motorized MALTMILL is truly a wonderful addition to my brewery.  BTW, the
motor I used is an old dental lathe which has two speed capability (1725/3450).

don
dput at csulb.edu


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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 1994 11:00:53 -0600
From: ejf at cidmv1.wustl.edu
Subject: Looking for Old Peculiar recipe

Looking for an Old Peculiar taste-alike recipe.  Extract or partial mash is 
peferred, but all-grain is welcome, too.  Any personal comments on the 
recipe would be helpful as well.  Thanks.

Eric Frederick                                        ejf at cidmv1.wustl.edu

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 10:10:43 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Story for would-be all-grain brewers, etc.

There have been lots of posts lately along the lines of "I want to go
all-grain, but I'm confused and somewhat unsure".  I thought I would
describe my first attempts at brewing all grain -- compared to that,
some of you would-be all-grain brewers are already pros!

Like many out there, I had no one to show me how it was done; heck, I
didn't even have Papazian's or Miller's books -- all I had was a slim
British volume called "Brewing Ales and Stouts" or some such by CJJ
Berry, a very primitive reference.

The only extra equipment I bought to move from extract brewing to all-
grain was 20 qt enamel kettle and a nylon grain bag.  I dumped the
grains into the bag, lowered them into 155F water, stirred 'em around on
the stove for 90 minutes or so.  I was really fuzzy on the concept of
sparging, so after the mash, I simply removed the grain from the water,
held the bag above the kettle, and had a friend pour about 1 gal of hot
tap water over the grains to rinse them!

Then came the boil.  I topped up the liquid level to 5.5 - 6 gallons,
which of course didn't all fit in the 20 qt kettle.  So I put about 1.5
gallons in a smaller kettle on a separate burner, and split the hops
proportionally between the two kettles (by guesstimate, of course; I
didn't have a scale, either).  Eventually, enough liquid boiled away
that I could combine the two pots.  I don't even think I had a wort
chiller then; I just sat the kettle in a sink full of cold water.

The result of this incredibly klugy, inefficient and unorthodox
technique?  A pretty darn good batch of beer, to my thinking at the
time!  I soon refined my techniques, figured out what sparging was,
moved up to a Zapap bucket-with-holes type lauter tun, built an
immersion chiller....  Slightly more than a year after that awkward
attempt, one of my beers took a first place at a local competition.

By now I use a copper manifold sparger, a counterflow chiller, have a
decent grain mill, culture yeast, grow my own hops, etc.  I didn't
start out that way, though.

The moral of this story is:  don't be intimidated by the process of all
grain brewing!  All the gadgets are great but not necessary, you can
worry about all the technical details after you've got a few batches
under your belt (literally and figuratively).  Just give it a try!

- --
Jeff Benjamin                               benji at hpfcla.fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.                         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Midnight shakes the memory as a madman shakes a dead geranium."
					    - T.S. Eliot

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Date: Thu, 17 Feb 94 12:12:37 EST
From: rowan at ocean.rutgers.edu (Andy Rowan)
Subject: first lager: when to rack?

Hello, fellow cyber-brewers.

Well, I had my extra fridge and my Airstat sitting there, so I decided
to go ahead and do a lager, after all these ales.  I used a Yeast Labs
liquid lager yeast, and got the thing started fermenting in the fridge
at 46 degrees F or so.  Everything was all fine (should I say cool?).

I didn't get around to doing anything about racking into another carboy
until the other day, about a month into the ferment.  At that point there
were still a steady supply of tiny bubbles rising up through the brew.

After I racked, no more bubbles.  I'm thinking (not worrying, mind you)
that I left all the yeast behind when I racked.  The beer is just sitting
there in the carboy, looking clearish.  It's been 36 hours since I racked,
and I don't see any signs of fermentation continuing.  SG is 1.020.

Do I have a problem?

Andy

==================================================
| Andy Rowan                                     |
| Center for Remote Sensing and Spatial Analysis |
| Rutgers University, New Brunswick NJ USA       |
| rowan at ocean.rutgers.edu                        |
==================================================
"I remember when the air was sweet,
 and I brought home the fish to eat.
 Now we buy SPAM from the grocery store,
 cause you can't eat the fish no more."

- --Little Village, "Do you want my job?"

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1353, 02/19/94