FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Misc. comments (Jeremy Ballard Bergsman)
  Thanks and Some Questions (perkins)
  pH (Jack Thompson)
  Brewer's salaries/Chill! (Stefan  Smagula)
  INBOX Message (See Below) (Mailer.MC1)
  Brewing in plastic bags? (Chris Lockwood)
  Brewpubs in DC (Vanek)
  cheap aerator DETAILS (btalk)
  cask ales, yum (22-Apr-1994 0911 -0400)
  Las Vegas brewpub (The Holy Cow) (Maj Don Staib )
  RE: USE OF CRACKED MALT FOR TOASTING (708) 938-3184" <HANSEN.MICHAEL at igate.abbott.com>
  Homebrewing Legalities (Rick Hammerstone)
  Chunky Beer (Richard Joy)
  Salt Lake area Brewpubs (Maj Don Staib )
  Help with plastic primary (Jonny Miner)
  Teaberry Beer (Rick Starke)
  Re: Las Vegas BPs ("Dennis Lewis")
  Irish Moss Scare (Sean MacLennan)
  Another Kegging Question! (JACK FORD)
  Malt Extract Color (Martin Snow)
  Re: (Jon Higby)
  Cask Conditioned Ale Article (Glen Tinseth)
  oatmeal stout (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Brewing with wheat (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Aeration: not that crucial? (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Extraction rates for grain ("KEVIN CAVANAUGH")
  Recipes (SOC)" <mendrick at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
  Aeration: not that critical? (Frank Longmore)
  Brewing & Malting (Chuck Wettergreen)
  "special" hops (LLDSC)
  Philly brewpubs (Frank J. Leers)
  Re:  brewpubs/micros in Wash. D.C. & kegging system (repiii)
  Cooper's Ale (John Keane)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 17:44:01 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeremy Ballard Bergsman <jeremybb at leland.Stanford.EDU>
Subject: Misc. comments

From: David Knight <dknight at ren.iterated.com>

>I recently took a stab at an American Light Lager (for my fiance who thinks
>that Coors Light is the greatest beer in the world).  It was made with
>5 lbs of pale malt and 2 lbs of rice, O.G. 1.040, F.G. 1.006, WYeast 2112
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^                          ^^^^^^^^^^^
>(California Lager).  Primary ferment at 70 degrees, secondary at 32 degrees
                                        ^^^^^^^^^^
>for about 3 weeks, bottled with 4 ounces corn sugar.  After bottling it
                                ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
>1)  *NO* carbonation.
>2)  The beer has little flavor (that's what I was aiming for), but a rather
>    strange aftertaste that I have trouble describing.  The closest thing

If that is 4 ounces by volume, that is why you don't have enough CO2.  
Otherwise, your problem might be more one of head retention.  You have
very little malt.  The rice contributes very little protein (one reason why
the big boys like it).  Maybe try a little wheat next time.  The off flavor
might be a result of using the lager yeast at such a warm temp.  Even though
this is the Steam (tm) yeast, the ferment temp should be 55-60.

>From: Paul Sovcik <U18183%UICVM at UIC.EDU>

>  An experiment was performed on the effect dissolved oxygen had on unfermented
>wort.  One aspect of the study apparently looked at the yeast replication and
>corellated that to the amount of oxygen saturated.
>  A graph was shown (sorry, I dont have the book in front of me and I dont know
>the page numbers) that plotted # of yeast cells vs. oxygen saturation in wort.
(pg. 635)
>The graph shows that below a saturation point of 25%, the amount of yeast
>reproduction dramatically and exponentially drops to presumably zero with
>no oxygen in the wort.  However, at any saturation point above 25%, there is
>no apprecable difference in the number of yeast cells.
>  And the kicker here is that other findings of this experiment showed that
>no matter what the oxygen level in the unfermented wort, at the finish of
>fermetnation, THE ALCOHOL LEVEL WAS THE SAME.  From this I would have to
>assume that fermentation went to completion no matter how poorly aerated the
>wort was.
>  So, from this study one can conclude that one only has to get 25% oxygen
>saturation in the unfermented wort for optimal yeast reproduction, and that
>if one does not achieve this saturation point, the wort will still ferment
>to completion anyway (without a high final gravity ). This study, however,
>makes no mention of lag times...
>  So I guess my question now is:  What is 25% saturation and how do I get it
>with the least possible hassle?  I am guessing that regularly aerated tap
>water will have at least 25% aeration if not much more than this, so the
>simple act of mixing tap water with cooled wort (which would have little
>aeration) would probably put me in the ballpark for max aeration.
>  I think I have interpreted this study correctly, and, if I have not,
>Im sure Ill hear about it.  :)
> -Paul
>Paul Sovcik    U18183 at uicvm.uic.edu

I think you have made a few errors here.  The first error is that this would
seem to be saturation with O2 gas and not air.  In other words, complete
saturation with air would get you up to about 20%.  Even if this assumption
on my part is wrong (the book is not explicit) there are other problems.
Just because the amount of EtOH produced is the same doesn't mean the final
beers are the same.  The amounts of esters and other things might be radically
different.  Adding unboiled tap water can be a risky proposition, especially
for some water supplies (bugs and/or chlorine).

On the other hand, this graph is rather laughable.  All but two of the points
lie on a straight line of yeast yield, including the pair at ~10% O2.  
Only when you drop down to ~5% do you have a pair that are off the line,
with about half the yeast yield (note that the Y axis doesn't go to 0).
They need a lot more points down in that low range before they start drawing
in lines like the one shown.

Bill Hollingsworth and Norm Pyle write about crystal malts:

 > This isn't logical.  The mash contains enzymes which work to break
 > down starches into fermentable and unfermentable sugars.  The longer
 > the enzymes are allowed to work, the more fermentable sugars
 > (smaller sugars) are produced as the enzymes chop away (remember
 > Charlie's picture of the little lumberjacks?).  I can't see how the
 > unfermentable sugars in crystal malt are immune to this enzymatic
 > activity in the mash.

>I agree with your theory (and I do indeed remember Charlie's picture of

I had a long correspondance about this topic with a student at Davis.  After
numerous false starts at an explanation he came up with the "fact" that
the barley used to make crystal malt has more alpha 1-6 linkages, which
are immune to the amylase action in the mash.  This would result in more
unfermentable material after the two mashes (the germinating one and
the brewing one).  

But if this is true, the question is: why do you need to make it into
crystal malt?  The effect should be the same if you made this barley
into pale malt and mashed it with the low alpha 1-6 pale malt.

Jeremy Bergsman  jeremybb at leland.stanford.edu

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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 94 11:53:33 EDT
From: perkins at zippy.ho.att.com
Subject: Thanks and Some Questions

happened to my first batch of brew (light body and carbonation that took
off after about 2 mos in the bottle).  Many respondents indicated that,
besides wild yeast, a possible cause of the carbonation problem was that
the temp of the bottled beer had increased.  I can't entirely rule out the
possibility of wild yeast problems, but it is quite likely that the area
where the beer was stored had increased in temp (coincided with some of our
earlier warm weather).  I will redouble my sanitation efforts and move the
bottled beer to the basement sooner.

    Since it appears important to get the beers into a cool place after
about a week in the bottle, I am (all of a sudden) more concerned about
summer storage than I might otherwise be.  My basement summer temp is
probably up to 65-75 (just a guess, since I never needed to know before
now).  Do I need to invest in a beer 'fridge?  I was waiting 'til taking up
lagering before making _that_ investment 8{).

    Several respondents commented to the effect that "low gravity beers are
somewhat unstable" (my OG was 1.034).  I could use some help understanding
why this is so (pointer into published material would be sufficient).

Thanks again,
Mark Perkins
perkins at zippy.ho.att.com

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Date: Thu, 21 Apr 1994 23:37:44 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jack Thompson <jct at reed.edu>
Subject: pH

Just another data point.  In the <Encyclopedia of Microscopy and 
Microtechnique,> (Van Nostrand Reinhold, Co., 1973), p. 548, Edward Gurr 
had this to say:
"Some years ago I had reason to carry out investigations which involved a 
large number of experiments on the pH of water and staining solutions.  
This brought to light some interesting phenomena, highly relevant to the 
theory of staining.  In the first place these experiments appeared to 
show that freshly distilled (as well as deionized) water usuall has a pH 
between 5.0 and 6.0, not 7.0.  In the experiments referred to above, 
whatever the pH of the particular sample of distilled water at 20 degrees 
C it changed gradually (becoming less and less acid) as its temperature 
was increased to 100 degrees C at which point its pH had risen by 2.0.  
That is to say, if at 20 degrees C the sample had a pH of 5.8, then at 
100 degrees C its pH became 7.8.  Graphs were prefectly linear in every case.

It was also observed that as the temperature of the samples of water 
fell gradually from 100 C to 20 C the same ph changes took place but in 
reverse, so that at 20 degrees C the pH readings were exactly the same as 
those observed before the samples had been heated."

The color of water from all grain batches may affect the accuracy of any 
pH reading.

Take a look at: <The Constituents of Wheat and Wheat Products." by C.H. 
Bailey; pp.255-260; and "      Colorimetric Determination of pH." by the 
Lamotte corporation

Temperature, pigments from wheat (all grainers take notice), false 
colorimetric readings based on pH strips due to dyes contained in grain, etc.

I am sometimes amazed that the brewer's of yore could even get out of bed 
in the morning; their science was so imprecise.
Jack C. Thompson
Thompson Conservation Lab.



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Date: 22 Apr 94 02:36:50 EDT
From: Stefan Smagula <74071.327 at CompuServe.COM>
Subject: Brewer's salaries/Chill!

I was wondering, what's the salary range for a brewer working at a
brewpub?  And about how much would her or his assistant make?  I am
looking for a job (as the assistant, for now ;-)  ) in the NYC area, and
don't know what kind of wages to expect. 
Thanks for any information you may have.

&&&&&&&&&&&&&&&

Please fellow brew-dudes and dude-ettes: Stop the violence. $-)
We bicker too much.  We argue ad hominem too much. Beer-making is fun!


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Date: 22 Apr 94 01:30:13 U
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Subject: Homebrew Digest #1405 (April 22, 1994)



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Date:         Fri, 22 Apr 94 08:56:31 EDT
From: Chris Lockwood <LOCKWOOD at UKCC.UKY.EDU>
Subject:      Brewing in plastic bags?

  Hi.  I'm a new to the homebrewing experience (3 batches so far), and I
have a question for all you veteran brewers.  A friend of mine gave me a
"brewing bag" the other day, and I would appreciate any helpful hints about
using it.  It appears to be a polypropylene or polyethylene bag with a large
screw top opening at the top for filling.  The cap has a small pressure relief
valve in the center.  The bottom of the bag has a small tap for dispensing.
The bag has been placed in a sort of woven mesh casing with a handle at the
top, presumably for hanging.  I guess I'm planning on filling it with part of
my next batch at bottling time (part because the bag looks like it will only
hold 2.5-3.0 gal.).
                        T.I.A.,
                                Chris

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 08:53:55 
From: uu1072!Vanek at uu5.psi.com
Subject: Brewpubs in DC


The only "true" brewpub in DC, i.e., they brew on premises--is the
Capital City brewpub.  It's located at around 12th and H St., NW--next
to the DC convention center.  Great beer.  If you get there during
off-peak business hours, you may be able to sweet talk the brewmaster
into showing you around the brewing equipment.  Nice operation.

Outside DC is Dominion Brewing in Ashburn, Va.  They brew for a lot of
the local "brewpubs" including Bardo's and Strangeways in Arlington
(on Wilson Blvd.).  Anyhow, Dominion has tours on Saturday at 12 and 3
pm--you look around the place.  After the tour you get to talk to the
owner and he pours you all the free sample you can consume.  Great
beers, always changing--well worth a visit.  He also encourages
homebrewers to ask questions!!!!

Tom Vanek
vanek at aepco.com

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 09:19:54 EDT
From: btalk at aol.com
Subject: cheap aerator DETAILS

Nial wonders about this.
Manufacturer (importer in this case) is FRITZ Pet Products, Dallas Tx. Item
is called TINY BUBBLES air diffuser. 2 pack of 1.5 inch length cost $1.49.
The air filter is a 3 in diameter disc shaped thing, brand name PALL. Cost
about $3.00. Has flow direction arrows on it, so you can hook it up the same
way every time, but I never unhook the filter. The filter goes inline (1/4
inch OD tygon tubing) between aquarium pump and aerator. Hopefully it filters
some of the cooties out, at least it eases my paranoia;> 
Cheap investment, much easier than trying to shake carboy.
How's That, Nial?  ;)
Regards, Bob Talkiewicz <btalk at aol.com>

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 09:28:51 EDT
From: 22-Apr-1994 0911 -0400 <ferguson at zendia.enet.dec.com>
Subject: cask ales, yum

First off, good stuff Jim!  I spent 15 days in England and 8 in Ireland last
Oct/Nov and definitely made my rounds to lots and lots of pubs and breweries.
Having been to germany, etc, I think the Real Ales are the most delicious
brews in the world that I've sampled thus far..

>Cask Conditioned Ales
>by Jim Busch

>Despite what you may have been told in the US,
>cask ale is not warm and it is not flat.  It is dispensed at cellar 
>temperatures, 54 - 59F, and is naturally, albeit lightly carbonated.  

But, when compared to your average US-served beer, the Real Ales in England
are quite warm.  Most pubs in the US serve beers at temps in the high 30s to
low 40s.  that 15-24 degree diff. is pretty significant, espec. when one
is used to cold brews.  Carbonation levels in the Real Ales, again when
compared to US-served beers, is waaaaay low, hence the reason why it is
considered flat by most Americans.  I personally don't care much for the
CO2 bloated brews in the US, like, for instance, anything from any of the
big US brewers.  I think the main foundation for the flat/warm notion comes
from how beer is served in the US.  In Germany, the brew is served much
warmer than in the US also.  Some of the american brews, like everybody's
favorite Sam Adams ( :-), taste quite nice at 50-55F, and I find the hop
aroma comes through much better when the beer is warmer.

>Maturation of Cask Ales:

>This task falls
>onto the publican/cellarmaster.  In the old days, it was the cellarmasters

it'll be a long time before we see this kind of attention in US bars, eh???

>The next
>day, the cellarmaster will sample the beer to determine when it is ready. This
>is an extremely important part of the process and a major reason why many 
>cask ales are not served at their peak of flavor.  Some beers require a little
>more time than others to reach their peak.  

usually, though, i found that the cellarmaster's tend to know the brew they
serve and therefore know when the brew is best.  and, if you are one to have
a few a day at one pub, you find that one day the brew tastes one way, the
next day it tastes slightly diff, etc.  the maturation process once the keg
is vented and tapped plays a big role on taste.  i remember being at one pub
talking with the cellarmaster... the current keg had 4 pints left or so and
then she was going to put on a fresh one.  well, when the fresh one came on,
she poured me a brew.  WOW!  what a diff compared to the stuff that was 'on'
before!!  totally fresh brew.  it was delicious!

also, you might want to mention how long a brew can stay 'on'.  once the
keg is on, it can only stay on for 5-7 days because with each pull of the
beer engine, you're introducing oxigen to the brew.  this causes the beer
to get oxidised, eventually.  typically, 5-7 days is the limit.  if the
keg isn't consumed in that time period, sometimes the cellarmaster has to take
it off and put a new on on, therefore wasting some of the brew.  most pub
people i spoke with said that isn't much of a problem since they tend to
go through lots of kegs in 1 week.

good stuff.
jc

ps: while in england, i was lucky to acqurie a hand pump from a pub owner.
i had a party a while back and i made a cask-cond ale for it.  but, a lot
of people didn't like to too much 'cuz the beer was warm and kinda flat.  i
used my 3 gal corn. keg and followed some of the guidelines in and article
from BT based on what Pike's Place does.  came out pretty nice, i thought...


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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 07:39:48 -0600
From: staib at oodis01.hill.af.mil (Maj Don Staib )
Subject: Las Vegas brewpub (The Holy Cow)

I was just down in Las Vegas, and their new (and only) brewpub is the
Holy Cow, located on the East end of Las Vegas Blvd, just as you enter
the area known as "the strip".  In typical Vegas style they have slot
machines in place, but a very interesting decor, and the brewery is
upstairs behind glass, and they welcome you to look.  The gift shop is
full of all kinds of neat things.  I picked up a 1/2 gal growler to
carry my kegged brew to parties in. Get a sampler (4oz each of their
various types of brew) and have fun!

The Braumeister in Layton, Utah!  "Go with the flow".

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Date: 22 Apr 1994 08:56:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Michael D. Hansen (708) 938-3184" <HANSEN.MICHAEL at igate.abbott.com>
Subject: RE: USE OF CRACKED MALT FOR TOASTING

Hey All,

Kirk Harralson wrote yesterday about the use of pre-cracked malt for toasting. 
I have had very good results toasting pre-cracked malt. The aroma and flavor 
come through nicely. I have both steeped and mashed toasted pre-cracked malt.

Now I have a question for HBDland:
It is recommended that when cooling wort you keep it covered. But, when using a 
wort chiller with two ends sticking out of the brewpot, how does one keep it 
covered? Do I need to build a special lid, say, with two holes drilled in it to 
accommodate the ends of the chiller?

TIA and Brew on my friends!
Mike Hansen   (HANSENMD at RANDB.ABBOTT.COM)


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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 10:25:40 EDT
From: rickh at gcctech.com (Rick Hammerstone)
Subject: Homebrewing Legalities

I am putting together an up to date listing of those states that have
laws restricting homebrewing and winemaking. If any one has
information on their home state or can point me to a place where I can
get this information, please respond via private e-mail. I can
summarize and post the results here if there is a demand for it.

Thanks,
- --Rick

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Rick Hammerstone                       "These opinions are mine, dammit!
GCC Technologies, Inc.                    Get your grubby paws off 'em!"
rickh at gcctech.com
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 11:00:40 -0400 (EDT)
From: Richard Joy <rjoy at nalusda.gov>
Subject: Chunky Beer


Hello Brewers,

I need a diagnosis.  A friend and I brewed an all-grain ale several weeks 
ago.  After two weeks we were ready to bottle.  Upon opening the 
fermenter we noticed that a thick skin had developed over the wort.  We 
tasted the beer and it seemed OK.  As we began to siphon the wort, chunks 
of something were falling into the second container even though the hose 
was not near the bottom of the fermenter.  It was like the yeast never 
really settled.  We tried straining the wort further but could salvage 
only 1 case from a 5 gallon batch.  Most disappointing!

We used Wyeast British Ale (I can't remember the number).  It was also 
the first time we tried Irish Moss.  This was added 30 minutes into an 
hour long boil.  The only different grain used was flaked barley.  I wish 
I could give more detail about all the ingredients but I can't right 
now.  Does this sound like contamintion or a yeast problem or something 
completely different?  

We are not yet worried but definitely concerned.  No problem is totally 
unique in this hobby so I hope you can help me out.  Private e-mail 
messages are welcome.

Thanks,
Rich Joy

e-mail: rjoy at nalusda.gov



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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 09:19:31 -0600
From: staib at oodis01.hill.af.mil (Maj Don Staib )
Subject: Salt Lake area Brewpubs

A new brewpub opened in SLC this month.  This area is beginning to
take off like other areas of the country.  Park City has the Wasatch
Brewing Company, Ogden has Ebanezers, Salt Lake City has the Squatters
Pub, but the latest addition is the Red Rock Brewing Company.  Located
at 254 South and 200 West in Downtown Salt Lake, this pub is within
crawling distance of the Squatters at only 1 1/2 blocks away.
Stainless steel abounds, and they have a large selection of hats,
shirts, glasses and the like.  The food fare was excellent.  They
specialize in pizzas but have a variety to suit any taste.  I thought
the beer tasted a bit green, and one was over hopped.  In talking with
the management, the beer I thought was green was just completed and
hooked up to serve while I was there.  It seems this new pub is so
popular that they can't brew fast enough to let beer sit and age.
They only have about half of the brewery plummed in, so more
fermentors and aging tanks are in place but not yet ready. I think
aging would greatly improve the beer I thought was over hopped.

All and all a up and coming place, with knowledgeable staff and great
attitude!    The Braumeister in Layton, Utah!

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 08:43:59 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jonny Miner <woof at eskimo.com>
Subject: Help with plastic primary

I've been using a 5gal carboy with a blowoff tube as a primary and am 
tired of losing so much beer and the hassle. I'd like to make my 6gal 
plastic food grade bucket my primary but have no hole in the lid for a 
fermentation lock. Any ideas out there on how to cut the proper sized 
opening and achieve an airtight seal? Obviously, I don't have a drill bit 
that large.

Thanks for the help!

- --Jonny B-)

"There's [needs to be] a hole in the bucket, dear Liza dear Liza"

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 11:49:03 EDT
From: fastarke at rickstr.mawes.ingr.com (Rick Starke)
Subject: Teaberry Beer

    Good Day Brew Cru

    Anyone out there with any experience using teaberry in brewing? I got it 
    in my head last Nov. that it would be a brilliant winter/holiday ale, but
    brew being brew, I have no problem with the idea of making it in the summer.
    
    Additionally, anyone out there in Brewland know of a source for teaberry
    extract in case I like it and don't feel like trekking through the forest
    for days to collect enough of the little berries? I hate fighting the deer
    and the rabbits for them. Maybe someone out there works for Clark(s), makers
    of Teaberry gum. (Try it if you can find it) Thanks!
- -- 
        Rick Starke                  
  mailpath: fastarke at rickstr.mawes.ingr.com     

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Date:          Fri, 22 Apr 1994 11:03:33 CDT
From: "Dennis Lewis" <DLEWIS%jscdo6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Subject:       Re: Las Vegas BPs

Ronald Narvaez asks about Las Vegas brewpubs.

>I am going to vacation in Las Vegas in May and was wondering if there are any
Microbrewery Clubs there. We have a couple here in Albuquerque NM and I
enjoy them a lot and would like to check out some in Vegas if there are any. If
anybody knows of any please let me know the Names and Address(if known)
Thanks.......>

There is the Holy Cow! Casino and Brewery, 2423 Las Vegas Blvd South, 
(702)732-2697. I wrote up a review for my club newsletter and I'll 
include it here. 

	Holy Cow! Casino, Restaurant, and Brewery

During my recent, unprofitable trip to Lost Wages, I spent some time
at the Holy Cow! brewpub to drown my sorrows. They have a great deal
where, if you change $10 for a roll of quarters to throw into the
slots or poker machines, you get a beer free. Otherwise, a short pint
is $2.75 (the glass is 16 oz filled to the brim). I managed to get
out of there with four beers for a total of $2, so I consider that
excursion to be a net gain.

I got a tour of the facilities from a "glorified dishwasher" as he
bills himself. Actually, he was the assistant brewer and was racking
over some ale at the time. Since I was the only one touring at the
time, he showed me all the goods. They have a 10 bbl Century Mfg.
system and actually serve from the 10 bbl bright beer tanks. The 
malts come from Breiss preground and the hops are pellets. They
filter all their beers with the exception of the hefe-weizen, and I'm
not so sure that it's a good idea (see comments at ESB below). I
tasted all four beers that they had. Tough job, I know. They have
three regulars and a Brewmasters Special. 

Amber Gambler: this is an exceptional pale ale. It has a nice
Cascades flavor to it, but doesn't bowl you over with them like a
Sierra Nevada. I tried to get more info from the dishwasher, but he
didn't know anymore. This brew won a Gold for Pale Ale at the 93
Great American Beer Festival.

Vegas Gold: this is a real, German-style hefe-weizen. Low hop
bitterness, good yeast flavors. I don't think that they sell a lot
of it, but I'm glad to see that they didn't compromise on the style.

Rebel Red: This one is named after the UNLV Runnin' Rebels.
Fortunately, the beer is better than their basketball team. It's a
well-attenuated brew with a good bite to the bitterness and a medium
hop flavor. The malt character is from dark crystal malt (60L),
adding it's own carmel-like complexity.

Brewmaster's ESB: This once was a beer of obvious character, but I
think I got the tailings. I didn't ask how long it had spent in the
tanks, but it was past its prime. If fresh, this beer would have
brought tears to the eyes of the brewing gods. Here's where I think
that filtering is a mistake. The yeast cake in the storage tank would
have kept the brew in better shape much longer than refrigeration
alone. Filter if you must, but add back a little so that the beer
stays fresh, especially if it's going to be around a while.

It turned out that the brewmaster is the president of the local
homebrew club. I didn't get a chance to meet him, but I understand
that homebrewers are extremely welcome to visit and tour. The
scheduled tours are at 11, 1, 3, and 5 every day. Make sure they
know you're there for a tour and not just hanging about. The brewery
is right across from the Sahara hotel. You can't miss it--they have a
huge fiberglass cow on the roof.




Dennis Lewis    <dlewis%jscdo6 at jesnic.jsc.nasa.gov>
Bay Area Mashtronauts--Homebrew, The Final Frontier

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Date: 	Thu, 21 Apr 1994 01:23:45 -0400
From: sam at GOBI.TOOLSMITHS.ON.CA (Sean MacLennan)
Subject: Irish Moss Scare

On the Irish Moss thread, I was reading yesterday's (April 20) Ottawa
Citizen about food additives. One of the articles dealt with additives
that are legal in Canada but are suspected of having side effects. Low
and behold (reprinted without permission):

	5) Irish Moss Gelose or Carrageenan - A texture modifying agent
	used in a great variety of processed foods, including canned
	poultry, light beer, salad dressings, cottage cheese, canned
	vegetables and meat products. Included among the reported
	effects are ulcers, colon cancer and colotis.

No more details. In fact, was one of the few entries to give specific
problems. Anyone out there know if this is a real problem or if this is
one of those "we force feed the rats ten pounds of Irish Moss a day and
their stomaches exploded" problems.


	Sean MacLennan

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Date:    Fri, 22 Apr 94 12:35:30 EDT
From: IO91892 at MAINE.maine.edu (JACK FORD)
Subject: Another Kegging Question!

Recently I came accross a old soda machine like most corner stores have.
I decited to try and use it for homebrewing.  I just bought five of the
five gallon kegs (they look like scuba tanks) for $15 each.  It was quite
a bargain from what I have been told, the guy I got them from wanted to
use them for brewing but didn't use them enough to keep them around.
I talked to one of the local homebrewers here in Orono, (hold your breath,
MAINE) and he uses this type of system all the time.  I have been told that
by using forced carbonation, the brew is ready to go in a week or two, much
less than the individual bottle method.
I was wondering if anyone out there has used this type of system and
what your results were.
thanks
Jack Ford

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 12:49:08 -0400
From: snow at canusr.DNET.NASA.GOV (Martin Snow)
Subject: Malt Extract Color

I decided to make an Oatmeal Stout, so I found a recipe and went shopping
for ingredients.  When I got home, I realized that I had gotten "dark"
extract syrup instead of the "amber" called for in the recipe.  

Besides color, what is the difference between light, amber, and dark LME?  Are
there more unfermentables in one of them?  How big an impact on the taste of
the final product does the darkness of the extract make?  

In a similar vein, is color the only thing different about 40L and 120L
crystal malt?  If you brewed two batches of the same recipe but used a
different darkness of crystal malt, could a blindfolded drinker tell them
apart?

Martin Snow
snow at canusr.dnet.nasa.gov


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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 9:11:48 CDT
From: unisql!jonh at cs.utexas.edu (Jon Higby)
Subject: Re: 

> Has anyone ever tried recycling hops?  Or to be more precise, has
> anyone tried reusing aroma hops (or even flavor hops) as bittering
> hops for the next batch?

Yes, this will work. I've made a batch of Scotish 120-Shilling ale (S.G. 
1.090) from the first runnings of two sparges. The remaing sparge made a 
2-penny ale.  Boiled the 120-Shilling with bittering hops (Kent Goldings)
and then used the remaining spent hops for the 2-penny ale (S.G. 1.040). This
was how they decribed to do it in the brewing series book "Scotch Ales".

It is certainly doable, but it seems like it would be hard to determine
how much bittering you are getting from the spent hops. The above method
is a good combination, high initial bittering to offset strong ale, low
bittering (from spent hops) for weak ale.

If I recall right (I don't have the book in front of me), they estimated
a 22% hop utilization for the strong ale (with fresh hops), and a 15% for
the 2-penny from the spent hops.

Maybe Mark from Hoptech will chime in on this!

Jon /
   / Austin

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 11:30:27 -0700
From: glent at falstaff.cache.tek.com (Glen Tinseth)
Subject: Cask Conditioned Ale Article


Hard to believe no one has mentioned the article in Brewing Techniques
a couple of issues ago. I  *think* (forgive any mistakes, I'm at work away
from my brewing piles) Fal Allen, of Pikes Place Brewery wrote the piece.

It had a lot of practical advice based on their efforts at the brewery. In
the next issue there was a letter to the editor from a CAMRA mucky-muck
congratulating BT for a good article on a misunderstood subject.

Worth a look, I think.

Glenn

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 14:43:51 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: oatmeal stout

The problem with oatmeal is that you really need to mash it.  Of
course, the haze that would result from not mashing it wouldn't be
visible in a stout, so maybe it's ok.  

I would try this: Get a pound of 6-row malt (get the store to crush
it, or buy it pre-crushed), and mix it with a pound of oat flakes.
Then add about a gallon of hot (170F) water and mix well.  Cover the
pot and insulate it with several towels (or any other scheme you can
come up with) and let it sit for about an hour.  Then strain out the
liquid (which should be sweet and probably a bit cloudy).  Mix another
gallon of hot water with the remaining grains, stir well for 5 minutes
or so (but don't splash), and strain again.  Congratulations, you've
just done your first mini-mash!

Now use this liquid instead of water for an extract-based stout
recipe.  If your recipe calls for using other adjunct grains (roasted
barley, crystal malt, etc) you can add them to the mash, but you'll
need a bit more water in the first "infusion" (figure about a quart
per pound of grain).

You might a recipe along these lines:

mini-mash, as above, with 
	3/4lb roasted barley
	1/2lb crystal malt
Top sparged wort up to 2 gallons with water.

5 lbs pale malt syrup (or 4 lbs dry pale malt extract)

Boil 1 hour with 10HBUs of bittering hops (e.g. 1.25oz Northern
Brewer).

Add 1/2 oz Kent Goldings 10 minutes from the end of the boil.


This is similar to an all-grain recipe I made a week ago, and that
tasted quite good straight out of the brew-pot (it's still fermenting,
so I can't comment on the final results).

=S

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 14:50:12 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Brewing with wheat

> Jason Sloan asks about brewing with wheat grown on his family's land.

You've got to malt the wheat.  This involves getting it wet and
letting it sprout just the right amount, then drying it (carefully).
_The Historical Guide to House Brewing_ (or some similar title) by
Clive Pensee has instructions on malting your own grain.  I believe
wheat is a bit harder to malt than barley because it has no husk to
protect the growing shoot (acrospire, to get technical).

Then you proceed as if you're making an all-grain wheat beer.  Except
it's really hard to sparge a 100% wheat mash (most wheat beers have at
least 30% barley malt in the mash).  Since there are no husks to form
a filter bed, the sparge tends to "stick".  Somehow Ireks makes a 100%
wheat malt syrup, but I don't know how they do it.

=S

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 15:05:02 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Aeration: not that crucial?

Paul Sovcik writes:
 >   And the kicker here is that other findings of this experiment showed that
 > no matter what the oxygen level in the unfermented wort, at the finish of
 > fermetnation, THE ALCOHOL LEVEL WAS THE SAME.  From this I would have to
 > assume that fermentation went to completion no matter how poorly aerated the
 > wort was.

This is contradicted by a recent set of experiments by Fred Scheer at
the Frankenmuth Brewery.  He found what with 0ppm dissolved O2, the
final gravity was significantly above the final gravity achieved with
8ppm dO2.  This work was published in a brewing journal (exactly which
one, I forget) sometime in the last couple of years.

=S

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Date: 21 Apr 94 12:45:00 EST
From: "KEVIN CAVANAUGH" <CAVANAUGH at evax5.gdc.com>
Subject: Extraction rates for grain

When I see a table on extraction rates in extract/(lb/gal) for different grain 
types, e.g. 35 for pale, 24 for cyrstal, I realize this is based on 100%
efficiency.  What I'm not sure about is what effect mash parameters have on
efficiency.  For example if I mash at a higer temperature to increase
dextrines, will this increase or decrease efficiency?  If dextrines are heavier
than maltose will this increase my efficiency since extraction is based on
weight ?  Or will it be a wash because there is that much less maltose ? 
What if I mash-out before complete starch conversion, will the unconverted
starch increase my efficiency even more since it is heavier than dextrines ?
Maybe unconverted starch is insoluble and won't make it past sparging and
therefore decrease efficiency ? But what about those dextrines ?

And what about those dark grains ?  If black patent is rated at 
24 points/(lb/gal) is that all dextrinous extract ?  Can it be converted to
simple sugars in the mash or is it just non-fermentables and used only for
color and flavor. 

So I guess my question really is are the extract ratings of grain based on
being completely converted to maltose (or glucose) and how do the numbers
change if conversion is not complete ? It is obvious that improper sparging
will decrease efficiency but that being equal, its mashing I'm concerned about.

                  Thanks
                  KC


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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 16:33:24 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Jon Mendrick (SOC)" <mendrick at chuma.cas.usf.edu>
Subject: Recipes

Hello and cheers!  This is a first time for me on this damm thing.  It's 
great!  What I am looking for are recipes from around the country.  
Please send any recipes you are willing to give away.  I'll try anything.
Thanks a million!

Jon Mendrick
mendrick at chuma.cas.usf.edu



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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 15:57:20 -0500 (CDT)
From: Frank Longmore <longmore at tyrell.net>
Subject: Aeration: not that critical?

In HBD # 1404, Paul Sovcik speaks about getting 25% saturation of O2
by using very aerated tap water....
Well, there's a lot of hightech knowledge on the HBD about chemistry, and
I _used_ to know about partial pressures, but......
My only solid fact to contribute is that even if the water were 100%
saturated with air, it would be only 20% saturated with O2, since air
is only 20% Oxygen.
Personally, I aerate my wort with pure O2 from my welding rig....
Works great for me.

Regards,
Frank

  >>>>>>>>>> Frank Longmore    Internet:   longmore at tyrell.net  <<<<<<<<<<<
  >>>>>>>>>> Olathe, Kansas    Compuserve: 70036,1546           <<<<<<<<<<<
  >>>>>>>    I feel more like I do now than I did when I started... <<<<<<<



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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 15:43:00 -0600
From: chuck.wettergreen at aquila.com (Chuck Wettergreen)
Subject: Brewing & Malting


All,

I occassionally see references to _Brewing_and_Malting_Science. Is 
this publication available by subscription to the general public at 
a reasonable price? I would appreciate any information on how to 
subscribe and price. E-mail OK.

TIA,

Chuck
Chuck.Wettergreen at Aquila.com





 * RM 1.3 00946 * ... Help stamp out, eliminate, and abolish redundancy


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Date: Friday, 22 April 94 18:00:00 CST
From: LLDSC at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu
Subject: "special" hops


Howdy,

Just an update on my IPA with "special" hops. (I'm sure we remember
the controversy).

Beer came out great, but the hop thing didn't work out too well. I put
about 1/3 of the amount of leaves in with the boil and then threw
the rest into the primary fermenter.

It was quite a bit of the stuff. I don't think the problem was in the amount.
You can taste the "special" hops quite strongly, but they're not producing
the expected effect.


I've been reading up on the subject and I've decided that my IPA alcohol
level wasn't enough to dissolve the needed agents from the "special" hops.

Next time, I'm going to have to soak the hops in some strong alcohol for
a while and then dump that mixture into the wort.
AMAZING FACTS #1
(from my reading, by the way, the government was experimenting with hops
 and hemp growing during WWII. After the Japanese cut off our hemp supply,
 they attempted to grow the hemp by grafting it onto hop roots.)

Of course, not that I endorse or condone the ingestion of illegal drugs
in any way, shape or form.

                                        LLDSC at utxdp.dp.utexas.edu

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 1994 15:17:25 -0700
From: fjl at dpci.sannet.gov (Frank J. Leers)
Subject: Philly brewpubs

My brother is going to Philladelphia on business next week, can I ask
for the list of brepubs/micros not to be missed?



thanks

 -Frank
- --
                           ,,,                                               
                          (o o)                                              
  Frank J. Leers   ---o00--(_)--00o---- San Diego Data Processing Corp.      
  fjl at dpci.sannet.gov                   Engineering Applications Group      

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Date: Fri, 22 Apr 94 21:22:15 EDT
From: repiii at aol.com
Subject: Re:  brewpubs/micros in Wash. D.C. & kegging system

There is the Capitol City brewing co. right across the street from the
convention center. Good beer but a little pricey as is everything down in
that section of town. Also if you can go to the Brickskeller, on 22nd St. I
think, over 500 beers, very knowlegable bartenders, you won't be sorry. Also
if your feeling adventurous try Bardos on Wilson Blvd. in Arlington, Va. They
just opened and  they have 106 beers on tap including a few of their own.
Apparently the ABF balked at the name "Beat My Wheat" for their Wheat beer.
Those babies. Have fun.

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Date: Sat, 23 Apr 94 00:43:56 EDT
From: keane at cs.rutgers.edu (John Keane)
Subject: Cooper's Ale 

Perhaps ten years ago, someone introduced me to Cooper's Ale.  Having
only recently started to become interested in Better Beers at that
time, it was quite a revelation to me.  Bottle conditioned ("what's
that *stuff* in the bottle?"), with (to the best of my recollection)
a light, pleasant character and a smooth, uncomplicated finish
(unless you were careless in pouring).  It was, in short, about the
best beer I had ever had at that time.  Not terribly long after that,
I could no longer obtain Cooper's at my local preferred drinking
place, and I have not seen it for sale locally for many years.  I
don't know if it is even still imported to the USA.  I moved on to
other, and better brews.
 
Now that I'm taking the first tentative steps down the homebrewing
path, I have just discovered that Cooper makes a "Real Ale" kit.  If
similar to the brew I recall, this would be a lovely thing to try; it
might serve as a nice "non-threatening" introductory beer for my
friends who are interested in tasting my homebrew, but are more
familiar with lighter American beers.  At least, I found it so, back
before my Beer Enlightenment :).
 
A quick search through the HBD archives reveals three possibilities
for brewing with this kit:
 
	1) Follow the directions (i.e. add cane sugar and don't boil).
	2) Substitute malt for the cane sugar and supplement with
	   hops.  Boil per usual HB techniques.
	3) Substitute corn sugar for cane and follow usual HB
	   techniques. 
 
Number 1) doesn't sound too promising; number 2) sounded like it
would yield a beer rather different from the commercial Cooper's;
number 3) sounded plausible.  Does anyone have any experience with
this kit, and in particular, has anyone been successful in brewing
something similar to the commercial product?  Any suggestions?
 
_John_
keane at cs.rutgers.edu
 

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1407, 04/25/94