FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: club bylaws (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  Repost of All Grain Equipment and Hops Article (Arthur McGregor 614-0205)
  Helles bock recipe requested ("DEV::FVH")
  Honey (kit.anderson)
  beer bread apologies (Liana Winsauer)
  BUZZ-Off Results (Robert Mattie)
  CO2 chemistry/Malts/Skunking (Philip Gravel)
  Re: Dunk cooling (Aidan "Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen)
  Quick Ferment?? (Ratchet107)
  first batch problems (John Harres)
  Yeast questions (ELTEE)
  Re: Carboy Bunging Problem (Arthur McGregor 614-0205)
  wort splashing (Bob_McIlvaine)
  Carrying hot pots (Spencer.W.Thomas)
  no subject (file transmission) (Steve Scampini)
  Oak chips (Bob Jones)
  recipe request (Nada Khirdaji)
  Re: Trub & specific gravity (Brendan Halpin)
  Partial Mashing ("Palmer.John")
  Sake information please. (Jim Cave)
  Fruit Fly Beer? (Aaron Shaw)
  Re:  carboy bunging problem (STU_CEPARTIN)


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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 14:49:58 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Re: club bylaws

John DeCarlo              x7116 writes:
 > Can anyone explain why a homebrew club would *want* to have by-laws? 

An issue that has come into prominence recently is that of liability
for alcohol-related accidents.  (I.e., someone gets in a wreck on the
way home from a club meeting.)  Some clubs have incorporated in order
to shift potential liability from individual members to the
corporation (which is essentially penniless, so not a good target for
lawsuits).  

=Spencer

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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 16:18:56 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur McGregor 614-0205 <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil>
Subject: Repost of All Grain Equipment and Hops Article

Sorry for the messed-up post yesterday, don't know what happened.  Hope this is
easier to read.

Hi All

All Grain Equipment Questions:
     My wife just bought me a Gott Cooler for my B.D., so I shall
be transitioning to all grain soon.  I was wondering about brew
pots.  I have seen adds in brew supply catalogs and seen canning
pots in department stores for 8-8.5 gal ceramic on steel pots,
but they are listed as medium duty.  I have also read in the HBD
of some brewers whose ceramic on steel brew pots had the handle
break off.  How sturdy/reliable are these brew pots, and how
would I know short of buying one?    I know that kegs can be
modified, but don't have one, yet, nor time to mess with one. 
Initially I would brew a 3-4 gal batch on my electric stove
before investing in a Cajun/King cooker and working up to larger
batches.
     Now as for the Gott cooler, I am thinking about getting a
Phil's Phalse Bottom (tm?) versus a nylon grain sparge bag.  Now
my understanding is the sparging process is fairly long, so I
would want to replace the Gott spigot with a open drain plug or
such, and control the flow of water with a valve/restrictor of
sorts.  Does this sound reasonable?  Does anyone know of a Gott
manufactured spigot replacement part, and where to get one?

Growing Hops Replies
In June I posted a question on why one of my hops plants was
growing like crazy, and the other ones weren't, and what
fertilizer would be good for the plants. Below are portions of
the replies:

R.P. Mattie wrote:
>    Composted cow manure is a very good choice.  The only other
     thing you might have wanted to have added is sand, which
     allows some air space and the growth of roots as well as
     beneficial soil organisms.  The thing to find out is what
     kind of soil Ph hops prefer.  the clay is quite acidic, the
     compost mildly so.  You might want to add lime for its
     alkalinity, and perhaps some kind of calcium/mineral source. 
     Go easy on these things, and miracle grow kind of stuff. 
     Because they are so easily and quickly taken up, they seem
     to lead to a kind of soil burn out, which is bad for the
     living things in your soil, so bad for your plants in the
     long run, unless you like hydroponic gardening.  You CAN add
     a high-nitrogen fertilizer, and the hops WILL grow MUCH
     faster, but it will be really leggy and flabby and not at
     all hardy.   . . .

L.S. Strohl wrote:
>    . . . hops grow very well here, and I think the red clay is
     the key because it seems to hold moisture when it is built
     up with compost. I grew hops for two years and finally gave
     up in frustration because of the ravages of the damn
     Japanese beetles. I am not sure how bad they get up your
     way, but down here in Fredericksburg they frequently reach
     epidemic proportions.
>    Oh, Cascades were my most successful hops followed by a
     Pride of Ringwood rhizome . . .

J. Brawley wrote:
>    . . . have found that the Cascades are doing much better
     than the others.  I put in two Cascade roots, one Pearl and
     one Nugget....the Pearl grew for about a month and stopped
     but the Nugget is just beginning to flower.   Anyway, I have
     been using a little miracle grow every 2 weeks and otherwise
     add compost on a regular basis.  I also found this
     semi-organic budding fertilizer made from ground up fish
     called "Alaska Mor Bloom" which is 0-10-10.  It seems as
     though it has boosted the plants a bit...it also helped
     along some herbs that have been struggling this year.

     By the way, my other Cascade, a Northern Brewers, and a
Hallertauer are now up at 5-8 feet.  My one _Giant_ Cascade is up
to 18 feet with lots of nice flower buds.  Just hope the Japanese
Beetles don't eat them!  In the May/June issue of Brewing
Techniques has an article on growing hops, and says that sprays
like Diazinon and Malathion are available, but have 14 day
waiting times to harvest if you use them.  The gardening
salesperson at the local hardware store recommended Liquid Sevin
for controlling bugs, and from reading the back of the bottle,
most waiting periods are 0-2 days before harvest.  Anyone know
about this stuff and if direct spraying on the flowers will
damage them?   As far as harvesting, I was thinking of putting
the flowers in mason jars.  I've seen that some of the
vacuum/sealer machines have attachments for sucking air out of
canning jars.  As an alternative, I was wondering if the CO2
cartridges for soda water, etc, might be used to flush the air
out of a canning jar before sealing.  There was also a previous
mention on the HBD about oxygen barrier bags from Cole-Parmer
scientific catalog.  Could those be used with one of those
vacuum/sealer machines, and are they expensive?  Email or post. 
I'll post if interesting responses.  TIA
Good Brewing,
Art McGregor (mcgregap at acq.osd.mil)



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Date: 13 Jul 94 15:19:00 CST
From: "DEV::FVH" <FVH%DEV.decnet at mdcgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Helles bock recipe requested

I am trying to formulate a recipe for a Helles Bock.

This is what I've come up with so far.

4 gal batch(fits nicely into friDge):

7 lb - Great Western 2-row (mostly Klagus)
3 lb - Munich (german variety)
 .75 lb - Carapils
Enough Mt Hood(because I have this variety) at start of boil for about 25 IBUs
Fermented with California Lager yeast at about 38F.

Any advice(mashing tech., more or less of this, some of that, etc..) or
additional recipes are welcome.  I am shooting for the upper 60s for an OG.

Thanks in advance,

Dirk  <FVH%C17FCS.DECNET at MDCGWY.MDC.COM>


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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 10:47:30 -0400
From: kit.anderson at acornbbs.com
Subject: Honey


HONEY BEVERAGES-THEIR SWEET BEGINNINGS
by Brews Stevens (brews at delphi.com)
The earliest alcoholic beverages were probably made from diluted fermented
honey.In fact, the beer that the first Anglo-Saxons drank was a brew of
water and honeycomb in a clay pot,with the possible addition of herbs for
flavoring. Modern brewers have gone back to valuing the use of all natural
ingredients in their beers. One such ingredient is honey. This sweet syrup
is used in a variety of beers from herb and specialty styles to traditional and
flavored meads. The use of honey has become popular with the rise of micro
and home brewers. These operations generally make specialty upscale products
with premium ingredients.These breweries are growing at a rate of 15-20% per
year. Sam Adams recently released its Honey Porter and Rogue is using honey
to augment the sugar bill in its barley wine formulation.
Due to the popularity of home and micro brewers use of honey, the National
Honey Board
has commissioned the Bison Brewing Co. of Berkeley,Ca. to study the use of
it in beers. The study investigated the type,level and techniques for adding
honey into beer.Five prototype samples of honey ale and stout were
developed.Citrus,sage,clover and buckwheat honeys were studied.Depending on
the type of honey used and the type of beer desired,between 2-4 lbs.of honey
were added per barrel(as % by weight of total grain bill). To achieve
optimal results when adding honey to beer,honey's diastatic enzymes as well
as its yeast and bacterial counts must be considered.Honey should be added
in such a way so that it's diastatic enzymes(alpha+beta amylase) do not
degrade the dextrins(non-fermentable sugars)into simple sugars, thus
destroying the texture and body of the finished beverage. The yeast and
bacteria in honey,which are generally in stasis due to the low water
activity,can grow and proliferate when diluted during beer making.This can
effect the microbiological stability of the beer. In order to prevent any
complications it is important to pasteurize the honey and add it at an
appropriate time to your beer.
As a result,,a practical method ofpasteurization was developed by Bison. The
honey is fresh,unpasteurized andits delicate flavor profile and composition is
preserved by heating it to176 degrees for 2.5 hrs.under anaerobic conditions
prior to use.Honey is
then added to the batch at high kraeusen(peak fermentation activity) diluted
to the same OG as the beer. The addition of honey is bound to decrease the
dextrin content due to dilution as well as increasing the alcohol potential
due to the high fermentability of its sugars. Therefore the brewer should
use higher saccharification temperatures during mashing(154-160F) as well as
start with a lower wort gravity to reduce alcohol potential. A subtle honey
flavor is contributed using 3-10%by weight.Lighter honeys such as sage,mixed
flower,orange blossom,clover and alfalfa are best suited for flavor
additions. At 11-30 % levels,a distinctly noticeable flavor will develop.
Stronger flavored hops,caramelized or roasted grains,spices and other
adjuncts should be used to offset the tone. At levels above 30 % the
beverage can be considered in a category of its own approaching mead. The
stronger flavored honeys such as buckwheat or heather impart a distinct note
even at low % additions.Eucalyptus honey is said to provide a medicinal
bitterness to beverages it is used in. There are still ares that need to be
studied such as the development of furfural and its derivatives(causing off
flavors) as a result of heating the honey. FAN levels(free amino nitrogen)
are low in honey and are generally offset by all grain worts but extract
brewers can inadvertently be at levels below nutrient demand for the yeast
due to additives used in extract formulation such as corn and rice.
For more info contact
National Honey Board
Food Technology Program
P.O. Box 281525
San Francisco,Ca. 94128-1525
FAX 415-340-8568 PHONE 1-800-356-5941
or
American Mead Association
P.O.Box 17511
Boulder,Co.80308
PHONE 303-442-9111
The American Mead Association was started by beekeeper and mead maker,Pamela
Spencer Allen of Ostrander,Ohio in 1986.They promote the brewing and
enjoyment of mead.The director is Suzanne Price and she can provide
information on the culture and history of mead as well as materials on
brewing techniques and ingredients. She has consulted for many brewpubs on
the use of honey in beers.

Honey-Chamomile Ale Recipe
Grain Bill
(per 31 gal Barrel)
2 row pale malt       37lbs
munich 10L         5lbs
carapils           3lbs
HOPS
Northern Brewer     5.6 oz
8% AA  32 IBU   at 60-90 min.
Cascades         2.8 oz
5% AA    at  30 min.
Fuggles            2.8 oz
3.4 AA     at   10 min.
Hallertauer        2.8 oz
2.9 AA    at   end of boil
SPICE
Chamomile         5.6 oz
add at end of boil
HONEY
Clover honey       4lbs
add at high kraeusen

Get your brewing water to 100ppm Calcium,300ppm sulfate+30ppm Chloride
Mash Temperature 155F
OG = 1.048
FG = 1.012

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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 15:07:18 -0700
From: Richard B. Webb <rbw1271 at appenine.ca.boeing.com>

Subject: Hop Characteristics

I have created this table of hop characteristics for my own use. I tried to send
it in a tabular format, but the list scanner for the HBD won't let in anything
over 80 characters by. It's hard to do this table in 80 characters! My original
version also has the values of acid for the hop flowers and pellets (where
available) at my local homebrew supply shop.

I suggest that if you want to keep this info, reformat it into tabular format,
and place it in your brewing notebook.

Good luck!
Rich Webb

Variety
Source
characteristics
Range of alpha acids
aroma use
Best use

Saaz
Czech
Unique spicy Czech/Bavarian Noble style aroma
3-6
V good
Pilsners

Liberty
German
German type aroma
3-5

Hallertauer
German
German type aroma, very mild, slightly spicy
3.5-5.5
good
Viennas, Dortmunders, Munichers, Weizens

Tettnanger
German
mild Noble German type, fine, sightly spicy aroma
3-5
V good
Alts, Lagers, Wheats

Willamette
American
Quality aroma, mildly fragrant, grassy
4.4-7
good
Mild Ales, Pale Ales, Porters, Stouts

Fuggles
British
Traditional aroma hop, spicy, mild, grassy
2.7-6
good
Mild Ales, Pale Ales, Porters, Stouts

Mt. Hood
American
clean German type aroma
4.3-8
good

Kent Golding
British
mild, traditional hop
4.5-6
good
Pale Ales, Porters, Stouts, Exports

Cascade
American
citrusy spicy flowery fruity fragrant Northwest hop
4-7.6
mod
all purpose, Lagers, Ales

Northern Brewer
British
strongly fragrant high alpha hop, German aroma
6.5-10
mod
German Pils

Perle
German
German aroma hop with bittering potential
7.6-11
good
Stouts, Alts, Wheat beers

Cluster
American
mild, pleasant
5.5-8.3
mod
Lagers

Bullion/Brewers Gold
British
strong, pungent bittering hop, unpleasant taste
8-9.2
poor
Stouts, Porters

Centennial (CFJ90)
American
very floral with citrus tones
9-11.5
good

Eroica
American
pleasant aroma, bittering hop
10-14
mod

Chinook
American
good aroma, pungent, heavy and spicy
11.8-14 mod
Stouts, Porters

Galena
American
strongly fragrant
12-15

Nugget
American
bittering hop, nice aroma
10.9-16
good

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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 17:51:17 +0100
From: Liana Winsauer <lon at pshrink.chi.il.us>
Subject: beer bread apologies

In HBD #1474 Jeff Renner caught and corrected what might have been a 
rather awful mistake on my part.  Many thanks!

He was correct in his surmise that I was referring to brewing bread with
spent yeast, not trub.  Being that my husband is still and extract
brewer we have no trub.  (Yes we have to trub today?)

Many apologies if my mistake ruined anyone's bread
Liana Winsauer
lon at pshrink.chi.il.us


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Date: 13 Jul 94 21:50:51 ES
From: Robert Mattie <Robert_Mattie%notes at sb.com>
Subject: BUZZ-Off Results

The First Annual BUZZ-Off AHA sanctioned homebrew competition was held in June. 
The results of the competition appear below for those interested.

Best of Show
Robert & Renee Mattie - New England Barrel Cider 

Strong Ales
1. Bob Kapusinski - Barley Wine
2. Bob Grossman   - Belgian Strong Ale
2. Mark Rowland   - Scottish Strong Ale

Stouts
1. Paul Minoche &
   Stan Pilkford  - Foreign Stout
2. Wayne Gisiger  - Dry Stout
3. Gene Muller    - Dry Stout

Dark Ales
1. Jonathan Zang  - Robust Porter
2. Fred Hardy     - Robust Porter
3. David Houseman - Robust Porter
3. Kevin Stayer   - Brown Ale

American Pale Ale
1. Terry Terfinke - American Pale Ale
2. Bill Szymchak  - American Pale Ale
3. No third Awarded

English Pale Ale
1. Donald Burns   - English Pale 
2. Barry DeLapp   - ESB
2. Dave Joyce     - English Pale

Dark Lagers
1. A.J. Delange   - Bock
2. Jonathan Zang  - Am Dark Lager
3. Rich Warren    - Dopplebock

Light Lagers
1. Barry DeLapp   - German Pils
2. Bob Kapusinski - Bohemian Pils
3. A.J. Delange   - Bohemian Pils

Belgian Ales
1. Tony Knipling  - Peche Lambic
2. Mark Simpson   - Wit
3. Jay White      - Peche Lambic 

Specialties
1. Robin Tama &
   Gene Muller    - Coriander Orange
2. Fred Hardy     - American Wheat/Honey
3. Renee Mattie &
   Robert Mattie  - Raspberry Ale

Meads & Ciders
1. Robert Mattie &
   Renee Mattie    - New England Barrel Cider
2. Bob Grossman    - Sweet Ginger Mead
3. David Houseman  - Sparlking Cider
3. Chris Balboni   - Traditional Mead

Wheat 
1. David Houseman  - Berliner Weisse
2. Doug Buddle     - Weizen
3. Fred Hardy      - Dunkleweizen

Mixed Ales
1. Andy Grigg      - CA Common
2. Mike Lelivelt   - Alt
3. Joe Mezo        - Kolsch

Labels
1. Doug Buddle &
   Keven Cradell   - Decemberfest
2. Alex Heisterkamp- Valerie's Lovely.....
3. Rich Rosowski   - Liberty Lager

Most Thirst Quenching
Joe Mezo - Kolsch

Congratulations go to Bob Grossman, Delaware Valley Homebrewer of the Year, 
awarded at the conclusion of BUZZ-Off.

We would like to thank the entrants, judges, stewards, Philadelphia area 
homebrew stores, and Nick Funnell (head brewer - Dock Street) for their 
participation in our competition.



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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 94 22:33 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: CO2 chemistry/Malts/Skunking

===> John L. Isenhour asks about C02 + H2O chemistry:

>I was having a discussion with a biochemist recently and they told me
>something I dont understand.  They said that when CO2 is dissolved in
>water it becomes bicarbonate, will make the PH of the water more basic
>and this can be removed by boiling (it will precipitate) and is a
>buffer.   My (limited) understanding was that dissolved CO2 becomes
>carbonic acid.  I was told that it became bicarbonate when it was
>dissolved and was carbonic acid when not (?).  This conflicted with
>what I understood so I then injected some CO2 into carbon filtered
>water and the PH became more acidic.  Then I got to see chemical
>drawings of bicarbonates and how they were buffers and was told that
>the chemical reactions were quite complex.  I get the feeling the
>person is familiar with blood gas exchange which might be quite
>different from CO2 and water.  Can someone explain what the case
>really is?

In pure water, CO2 combines with water to form carbonic acid:

   CO2  +  H2O  <====>  H2CO3        (<====> indicates a reversible reaction)

Carbonic acid is a weak acid and dissociates slightly:

  H2CO3  <===>  H+  +  HCO3-  <====>  2 H+  +  CO3=

HCO3- is the bicarbonate ion.  Sodium bicarbonate (NaHCO3) is also known as
baking soda.  Thus adding CO2 to water cause it to be come slightly acidic.
If the water is slightly basic because of dissolved carbonates, adding CO2
will cause it to become somewhat more acidic:

  H20  +  C02  <====>  H2CO3  +  CaCO3  <====>  Ca(HCO3)2

The carbonic acid reacts with the carbonate salt to form the bicarbonate.
If a solution containing calcium bicarbonate were heated, the CO2 will be
driven off the shifting the reactions to the left.  Calcium carbonate will
be formed as a result.  Upon prolonged heating and evaporation of the water
calcium carbonate will precipitate from solution.

In none of these reactions does the addition of CO2 cause the solution to
become basic.  Without seeing specific chemical reactions, it's not clear
what your biochemist friends are referring to.

===> Raymun at delphi.com asks about grain types:

>Can some explain to me what is the difference between all the grains
>out there in brew world.
> 
>Like for example:
> 
>What is the difference between malts from the USA, Belgium, Germany
>or England?
>
>And what types of beers should use what type of grain?

[other examples deleted for brevity...] 

You'll find all the answer to all these questions in the Malt FAQ.  As
soon as someone writes it, that is.  ;-)

===> Paul Murray writes about skunked beer:

>I don't want to revive the "zoolgical zymurgy" thread by suggesting that
>Heineken make their beer with skunks :-) but in reply to the theories
>about the skunkiness of Heineken, go to Europe and drink a Heineken (it
>doesn't taste skunky).  Go to the U.S. (I would imagine) or Australia (as
>I have done), and you will find that La Belle Strasbourg (from Fisher),
>Young's Ram Rod, and even Pilsner Urquell sometimes taste of skunk.  The
>orthodox explanation is that beer becomes light struck and the isohumulone
>(from the hop oils) breaks down into mercaptans & fusel alcohol causing
>the skunk flavour.  Somebody out there should be able to correct this as
>I'm sure it's only half right.

The following discussion on the photochemical reactions that produce
skunked beer appeared recently in rec.crafts.brewing:

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

From: rcpj at panix.com (Pierre Jelenc)
Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Re: Irradiated beer
Date: 11 Jul 1994 23:53:09 -0400

In article <2vspgd$gmu at news.mic.ucla.edu>, Robert Lloyd 
<rlloyd at inherit2.dna.ucla.edu> wrote:

>1) What the %$#*&^% is a Norrish type II cleavage?

It's actually Type I (one). I pressed too hard on the key. What it is, is 
a very efficient rearrangement of a specific structure containing ketones 
and CC double bonds. Absorption of light causes such a structure to shift 
electrons around, and to cleave the molecule. What happens next depends 
on the exact structure, but in the case of iso-humulone there is loss of 
carbon monoxide, and generation of the precursor to 3-methyl-2-butene thiol,
aka oil of skunk.

>2) Could you please give me an IUPAC (International Union of Pure and
>Applied Chemistry) name for iso-humulone? :-)

The reason for trivial names, is precisely so that one does not need to 
bother with bigger mouthfuls!

>3) "a methylbutylene free radical that abstracts a sulfur from any 
>>nearby protein" Sounds good in theory -- any Literature citations?

Blondeel ets al, J. Chem. Soc. Perkin Trans. I, 2715 (1987)

Yamanishi & Obata, Bull. Soc. Chem. Japan. _22_ 247 (1949)
                                           _23_ 125 (1950)

>4)  "Creates much more reactive radicals that deactivate instantly, 
>mostly against water. "  Are we talking hydroxyl radical here?  Hydroxyl
>radical would react with many types of molecules and virtually any
>organic molecule not just water, definitely could alter taste.

Hydroxyl radicals are very energetic, whereas those produced by such a 
reaction are not, so very likely there would not be any significant 
amount. Furthermore, beer is mostly water, so highly reactive radicals 
will react mostly with water.

Of course, they could cause taste alterations, but not skunking.

>5) "Non-isomerized hops constituents are not subject to such a
>photochemical 
>>cleavage, which is why hops do not skunk on the vine."  You've got to be
>kidding :-)  What the %$#*&^% is an isomerized hop -- let alone a
>Non-isomerized hop.  This would be the greatest IUPAC name of all time.
>
>Whoa, I just realized that I may have misread that last line but just in
>case I did not I'll leave that last point in.  Besides it's kinda funny.

The point of boiling hops, is to heat-isomerize the "alpha acids", which 
have very little taste and are insoluble into "iso alpha acids", which are 
bitter and water soluble. The alpha acids are collectively known as 
humulones (the beta acids are known as lupolones), and the isomerized 
products as iso-humulones.

Because the photoreaction requires a ketone group, hydrogenated iso alpha 
acids are light stable. They are used by the makers of clear-bottle beer, 
such as Miller.

Pierre   (Better living through chemistry)
- -- 
Pierre Jelenc       *  You get wise by watching what happens to you when  *
rcpj at panix.com      *  you're not.                             Andy Capp  *

 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-

Hope this helps. 

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel                                 pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 14:17:54 EST
From: Aidan "Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen <aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au>
Subject: Re: Dunk cooling
Full-Name: Aidan "Krausen Kropping Kiwi" Heerdegen

Steve Scampini <scampini at hp-and.an.hp.com> wrote:

* Also, with no cooling apparatus in the pot, it should be possible 
* to try an idea I have been toying with which is to make a big 
* screen plunger which exits through a hole in the lid.  At the end 
* of the cooling, the plunger (equal diameter to the inner diameter 
* of the pot) is pushed down to the bottom of the pot thus trapping 
* all the slud...I mean solids at the bottom of the pot.  

WOW! 

You have invented the BEER-BODUM !!

Better (tm) that sucker before Jack gets to it!

Sorry ... I couldn't resist.

Todd Carlson's explanation of carbonate equilibria in water was 
very educational ...  I think it is worht posting to the HBD 
(hell I have seen longer posts with less content before ...  so 
of mine come to mind).  

Does anyone have any comments on the Dear Old Dead Dave (DODD) 
Line's lauter tun design, where he has a shower rose covered with 
a pot scrubber thingy.  Does it do as good a job as a manifold or 
an EASYMASHER (tm) for a chiller type mash/lauter tun?  

Aidan

e-mail: aidan at rschp2.anu.edu.au

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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 00:40:32 EDT
From: Ratchet107 at aol.com
Subject: Quick Ferment??

I have just prepared a batch of Lips Lager (made as an ale) using edme dry
yeast, carefully pitched into the wort at 75 degrees F.
The vigorous primary ferment lasted for about 12 hrs when it rapidly tapered
off and almost stopped after only 36 hrs.  The temp in my appt. is usually
around 78 degrees.  I have never experienced such a rapid slowing of the
fermentation in my vast experience as a Homebrewer (now going on brew #6)!
 Can anyone tell me if this is typical of an infection?  I don't know if I
should bottle it, relax DW&HAHB, or trash it and try again.  I would
appreciate any advice.

Dennis


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Date: Wed, 13 Jul 1994 16:22:22 -0600
From: John Harres <Harres at UWyo.Edu>
Subject: first batch problems

Sorry this is so long, but hopefully somewhere in the details is the problem!

Well, I started my first batch Monday the 11th, and having experienced a few
problems, I thought I'd ask for suggestions.

I tried to make something similar to Papazian's Wise Ass Red Bitter.  I boiled
2 cups water, took it off the heat, added 2oz of crushed roasted barley, and 
then let that sit while I got 3 gallons of water boiling.  Once it came to a
boil, I took it off the heat and stirred in 6.5 lbs of amber malt syrup and
strained/sparged the barley into the pot.  I put it back on the heat and went
back to rinsing my bleached carboy.  Naturally, it boiled over, but I didn't
lose much.  I got a more stable boil going, and added 2oz Fuggle hops pellets.
At -15, I added 1/2 tsp Irish Moss, and at -10 my wort chiller.  At 0, I
removed it from the heat, added 2oz Goldings hops pellets, and then fired up
the chiller.  About 15 minutes later, I checked the temp, and it was a happy
80 F., so I gave it another 5 minutes and it was down to 75, so I turned it
off.

I then proceeded to siphon off the wort, got down to the gunk in the bottom of
the pot, and saw that I only had about 1.5 gallons in the carboy.  At that
point I grabbed my (sanitized) funnel with a screen and poured in the rest.
After some stirring on the screen, I ended up with an additional 1/2 gallon
or so in the carboy.  I added my Wyeast American Ale yeast, which I'd had in
a 1 liter starter for a day since it had plumped, and dumped it in, stoppered
it up and gave a good shake, then topped it up to 5 gallons.

I airlocked it, then realized about a half hour later that I'd not taken a
specific gravity.  I poured one cylinder-ful out, and took the OG.  It was
1.020!  Not exactly what I was looking for.

I went ahead and re-airlocked it and let it go.  Within six hour it was in the
30-40 bloops/minute range, and by the time I went to bed some 12 hours later,
it was at about 50-60.

It's now two days later, and it's, unfortunately, down to about 50 seconds
between bloops.

Here's the questions:

Why the low OG?
Is the 1 bloop/minute a problem?
When should I rack it to the secondary?

My plans now include getting a bigger brewpot, and maybe a new hydrometer.
It came with no scale for correcting for temperature, but I can only assume
that taking the SG with the liquid a bit warm would lower the measurement, but
I have no idea how much.  Like I said, the wort was at about 75 when I pitched.

Thanks for your time!

John
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
John Harres     | "The light works," he said, indicating the window, "the
                | gravity works," he said, dropping a pencil on the floor.
harres at uwyo.edu | "Anything else we have to take our chances with."
                |                            -- Dirk Gently (by Douglas Adams)


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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 07:00:50 -0400 (EDT)
From: ELTEE at delphi.com
Subject: Yeast questions

I want to make a mead and have some Red Star Champagne yeast.  I know their
beer yeast takes a lot of bashing, but what about this one?
 
After the mead it's time for the Oktoberfest.  I can't lager so I need to
ferment at room temps.  What's better, German lager, German ale, or steam
yeast?  Please suggest a Wyeast number.  Email if possible, I'm WAY behind
in reading HBD. TIA


hoppy brewing


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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 07:58:30 -0400 (EDT)
From: Arthur McGregor 614-0205 <mcgregap at acq.osd.mil>
Subject: Re: Carboy Bunging Problem

Tony McCauley asked how to remove a Bung from a carboy. 
I'll guess it is a typical rubber stopper (with or without a hole in it).
 -    If is with a hole:  Use a racking tube and push into stopper
(stopper should be with smaller end facing up), then put soapy
water around inside of carboy neck, and try to pull out. 
Alternately you could turn carboy over and jiggle till small end
of stopper rests in carboy neck, then use needle nose pliers and
remove.  Place one end of pliers into hole other on outside of
stopper and pull. 
 -    If it is without a hole:  More difficult.  May have to
destroy stopper to save carboy.  Might try to chill carboy in
fridge or ice bath, then when cold, shake stopper into opening of
carboy (again with inside neck lubricated with soapy water and
small end of stopper facing out).  Keep carboy upside down while
running warm water over bottom and sides of carboy to heat inside
air.  As air expands, pressure inside carboy may be enough to
push stopper out.  Alternately, may try a strong coat hanger and
propane torch.  Get end of hanger very hot (red?) and quickly
push into stopper (again with small end facing upwards), and let
cool, then apply soap water to inside of carboy neck and pull
out.  One last suggestion is a knife attached to pole and try to
stick into stopper and pull out. Good luck!

Art McGregor (mcgregap at acq.osd.mil)





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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 09:18:08 EDT
From: Bob_McIlvaine at keyfile.com
Subject: wort splashing

I've read some interesting posts about aeration of
wort on it's way into the carboy (ie. splashing into
the carboy).

One said with no qualification, "No, Don't Do It". Well
this **should** be qualified, "No, Don't Do It with hot
wort". THis will indeed lead to the card board taste,
the dreaded HSA (HotSideAeration).

On the other hand, if you cool your wort to pitching
temp then aerate it, this will give the yeasties plenty
of O2 to get started. This is desirable. This is my
method.

After chilling to pitch temp, I hook up a hose to my
boiler to drain the wort to the fermenter. This hose
has had a drill passed through it at 90 degree angles
about 4 inches from the end. This allows the wort
to suck air throught the holes as it passes by. This
actually ends up with a large froth in the carboy.

Using this method for many batches, I've never
had an infection or the dreaded HSA.


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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 09:45:28 EDT
From: Spencer.W.Thomas at med.umich.edu
Subject: Carrying hot pots

My suggestion is this: review and revise your brewing practice so that
you don't have to lift/move/carry a full pot of hot wort.  It's just a
recipe for eventual disaster.

=Spencer in Ann Arbor, MI

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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 10:15:44 EDT
From: Steve Scampini <scampini at hpangrt.an.hp.com>
Subject: no subject (file transmission)

Concerning a better handle for 33 quart enameled pots.  I agree
that 
the spot welded handles are a joke.  The idea presented for a
collar
style handle was interesting but for lifting the ptot, but I am not
sure
how it would work for tipping and pouring the wort when it was
cooled.
One material to consider for such a handle is good old plywood.  It
is
easily machined with commonly available tools.  It will burn of, of
course
and is prone to getting dirty unless sealed with some paint or
such.
Another option is to attach better metal handles in a more robust
fashion.
The temptation is to drill holes and use bolts but then there is
the rust
problem.  I was wondering if it might be possible to clamp metal
handles
below the rim using one of those pallet banding system like they
use to 
place metal straps around crates.  No good answers, lots of
questions.

Getting the bung out of the carboy is a great problem!  My first
thought
is some bad-a** solvent that would munch on the rubber (latex?). 
Maybe
lacquer thinner of course used with the upmost care (wear goggles,
fire
hazard, etc.).  Leave some in the carboy for a while.  Do a test by
placing a bung in a coffee can with some
thinner for a couple of days and see what happens.

Someone might suggest pressurizing the inside of the carboy and
blowing
the bung out...my guess would be exploding carboy time.  Don't
"brick"
the carboy just yet (this is more fun than thinking about A/B,
grain
mills or even Zima.

P.S . I talked to a guy who lived in Saudi Arabia for four years. 
Of
course, alcohol is illegal so there is lots of "homebrewers".  He
is
from Europe and is used to real beer.  His recipe:
Buy a bunch of non-alcoholic "malt" beer (over 25 types available
in
Saudi).

Throw a bunch of sugar in the "beer".  Add "yeast" (probably
champagne).
Brew up to 11% alcohol!!.  Mix some non-alcoholic beer back in to
cut
back to "normal " beer %.  Ymmmm.  Told me that sometimes you get 
gushers.  I told him about sanitation which came as somewhat of a 
learning experience.  Now that is down-home brewing.

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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 07:43:44 +0900
From: bjones at novax.llnl.gov (Bob Jones)
Subject: Oak chips

On a recent trip to England and few pints in merry old London I had Sam
Smith's Museum Ale. There was a distinct taste of wood
bitterness/astringency in this ale. The first and only English ale I have
ever had that had this characteristic. Sam Smith's kegs this beer in wooden
casks. The vast majority of their ales are kegged in metal kegs. I too
thought that wood flavors and tastes was a myth until I tasted this beer.
Was the taste good or bad? Well I would say it was subtle enough to add some
interest. Would I add oak chips to my ales to try and achieve this flavor?
No! Now if you got a french oak keg around and can clean it well (you
wouldn't believe what Sam Smith's goes through to clean theirs) and can
drink the entire keg in a week or two, I say give it a try. Short of that,
forget the oak chip additions.

Bob Jones
bjones at novax.llnl.gov



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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 94 10:50:41 EDT
From: nkhirdaj at ccs.carleton.ca (Nada Khirdaji)
Subject: recipe request

I'm looking for a recipe using anise seed or any other licorice
flavouring for a partial mash ale.  Has anyone come across anything?  
Cheers,
Mike Knul
c/o nkhirdaj at ccs.carleton.ca

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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 15:58:45 +0100
From: Brendan Halpin <halpin at vax.ox.ac.uk>
Subject: Re: Trub & specific gravity

Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com> writes:
>
>Chris Pittock writes:
>
>> When I did the last partial there
>> was a large amount of cold break material, so much so that 
>> when I took the
>> sample for spec grav. I was CERTAIN that this will give a 
>> false reading due
>> to all that crap floating around.
>
>Trub has no effect on SG readings.  Precipitate solids do not 
>effect the density of a liquid.  Counter-intuitive if you look 
>at cloudy sample but think about it.  Throw some rocks and logs 
>into a swimming pool.  Do they effect the density of water?  Do 
>you float higher or lower in such water?

This seems to be the received wisdom on this issue, but I'd like to
contest it. Logs and rocks are respectively floating and sitting on
the bottom and this is precisely NOT what suspended solids are
doing. Floating and sitting solids have no effect on the density
but suspended solids will: your hydrometer drops into the fluid and
raises the volume of liquid it displaces, suspended solids
included. Assuming the suspended solids are heavier than the
liquid, it will require a smaller volume to balance the weight of
the hydrometer. 

The difference is that when the particles are suspended they are
part of the fluid; when they float or sink they are not. If putting
the hydrometer in the sample makes any suspended particles rise
with the fluid, the particles will affect the reading.

However, for a particle to be suspended for any significant length
of time its density must be very close to that of the liquid, so
the real answer is that it probably doesn't matter. 
                                                      
Brendan

Brendan Halpin                    |Email: HALPIN at VAX.OX.AC.UK
Dept of Applied Social Studies    |PGP:   Finger halpin at vax.ox.ac.uk
Oxford University, Wellington Sq.,|       or halpin at gramsci.apsoc.ox.ac.uk
Oxford OX1 2ER, UK                |Phone: +44 865 270347 (work) / 726758 (home)

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Date: 14 Jul 1994 08:19:03 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Partial Mashing

Hi Dave,
Saw your post.
One thing I want to bring to your attention is that for a partial mash, you are
working under the limiting conditions of your Boil Pot. yes, you had noted this
but it is important to realize that Mashing Theory aside, YOU can only use 4.5
gallons of Wort. So: Here are the Rules and Exceptions,
1. 1.3 quarts water per lb grain to Mash.
2. 1.5 times That much water to sparge with.
3. Have more sparge water on hand in case you run out (Yes!).
4. The grain bed will absorb a lot, hence #3.
5. Figure on how much grain you need for your target assuming 30 pts per lb per
gallon and then add another lb and don't worry about your efficiency.
6. Forget about stopping the sparge when you get to 1.008; stop when you have
4.5 gallons or as much as you want. (you will probably be at 1.015 or better,
but who cares, grain is cheap).

For a first partial mash, you want to be concerned with proper technique and
not have to worry about whether you are making enough. Quality not Quantity.
So, pad your amounts. Think about hot side aeration ahead of time so your
runoff tube is not splashing the fresh wort into your boiling pot. Raise the
pot up so that it fills smoothly, just like when you are bottling. I thought
about it after the fact one time and ended up spilling 1.5 gallons of my first
runnings into the carpet! <8-0
Take a gravity reading when you are done sparging, add your extract, mix it up
well and then take another gravity reading for your boil gravity so you can
plan your hop schedule. This way you can calculate your efficiency (I know what
I said, but you will be curious anyway) and still work your Hop equations.
Mashing is really quite easy, just take your time. 
PS. I tend to Mash for 60-80 minutes.

John Palmer MDA-SSD M&P palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com   

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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 8:40:14 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
Subject: Sake information please.

	I don't mean to clutter up band-width, but a colleque of mine intends
to try making Sake and would like information, pointers, etc. on the process.
Is there a Sake digest?  She intends to buy Eckhardt's book "Sake USA".  Is this
book any good?  Direct replys would be fine.

		Cheers!  Jim Cave "I brew....therefore I am"

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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 11:41:23 -0400
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Fruit Fly Beer?

     Dear Fellow Homebrewers. I presently have a brown ale in
my primary fermentor (25 litre pail), which has been there for 
about 24 hours so far. My problem is that there are these fruit
flies that are flying all around it. If one or two managed to
get in could they harm my precious brew? Should I transfer to
a carboy with a blow off tube? Is there any way to get rid of
them without hurting my beer? Any help will be greatly 
appreciated.

  P.S. I am not interested in taking the lid off to let them all
       in for some new zoological zymurgy experiment.

- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada

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Date: Thu, 14 Jul 1994 12:27:56 -0500 (EST)
From: STU_CEPARTIN at VAX1.ACS.JMU.EDU
Subject: Re:  carboy bunging problem


Mr. McCauley wrote of a friend's aggrivation over losing a bung
in his carboy.  This is a problem that I have encountered (oddly
enough it usually happens when I attempt to remove the bung for
racking), and it has hastened my decision to do almost all of
my fermenting in food-grade buckets.  The easiest method I have
used to remove the bung is to simply fish it out of the carboy
using a wire hanger that has been bent in order to fit the hook
through the hole.  It takes some effort, but it saves carboys from
short tempers and keeps homebrewing costs relatively low (carboys
are a tad pricey in my neck of the woods).  Good luck and relax!

Christopher Partin
James Madison University
stu_cepartin at vax2.acs.jmu.edu

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1476, 07/15/94