FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Open Fermentation article, pt 1 (Jim Busch)
  Open fermentation article, pt 2 of 2 (Jim Busch)
  Wyeast 1338 (Domenick Venezia)
  Re: half barrel sources (Dion Hollenbeck)
  fermentation length (Jim Emery)
  request for recipes (Kristy J. Wiland)
  Re: CO2 tanks sloshing etc. (Stan Fisher)
  Double-bucket efficiencies (David Draper)
  Octoberfest (Jason Sloan)
  Brew kettle spigot (ron_hall)
  SF pubs and shops (ANDY WALSH)
  brewing survey-oops (Isaac Finnegan)
  Ann Arbor Brew Pubs/Beer Bars (RobertL933)
  abbreviations,etc (Btalk)
  Legal problems in Tidewater, VA ("William F. Cook")
  Wit beer request (BrewerLee)
  Will Wyeast Kolsch autolyse quickly? &c (Baker Ashley V H)
  making partials from extract recipies ("Malcolm Tobias")
  Nit Picking (npyle)
  Fermentap Inquiry (Michael Ligas)
  Homebrew shop in Tel-Aviv (tlopez)
  Flames for the Flame ("William F. Cook")
  BT goes second class (BTcirc)
  Generating AAU Tables ("Palmer.John")
  Old Hops / New Hops / Plugs (Barry Nisly)
  Wyeast problem (L M Sabo)
  Aerating starter cultures ("Seth L. Betaharon")
  McEwans malt liquor (Sean MacLennan)
  The chore of liquid yeast. (Erik Speckman)



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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:40:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Open Fermentation article, pt 1

Due to a large response I am posting this.  Jim.

		Open Fermentation
		by Jim Busch


This article is going to cover the concepts of using open fermenters in 
brewing.  The debates over open versus closed fermentation will no doubt 
continue as long as there are interested brewers to debate. I intend to 
present some of my feelings, opinions, and experiences with using open
fermenters, and point out some of the inherent pros/cons of using this 
technique.  I want to emphasize one thing about this issue: the choice of
fermenters is not going to be *the* deciding factor in your finished product,
many other factors will play a more important part in the character of
your beer.  Namely, malt choices, mashing programs, and above all, yeast
strain/viability/cleanliness will be the dominant influences on the finished
beer.  Having said this, there are instances where breweries who changed
from open fermenters to closed unitanks have noted distinct changes in the 
perceived quality of the beers, when judged by experienced taste panels. [1] 
 
Open fermentation is a concept that most homebrewers think is a sure route
to infected beer, or as something to be employed in some dark cellar in an old 
European brewery. I say nonsense!   Think for a minute about some of the 
best world class beers and then think of how many are made using open 
fermenters:  Sierra Nevada, Anchor, numerous English, Belgian and yes, even
German brewers use them.  It is a common sight in Bavaria to see a brewer
mucking around in the thick krausen on top of the open fermenter, collecting
samples, skimming yeast, generally doing things that homebrewers are told
to avoid. Eric Warner has noted in his excellent book on Wheat beers that 
open fermenters are the preferred method of German weizen production [2],
and that when open fermenters are used the yeast can be repitched for many
more generations than when a closed fermenter is used.

So whats an open fermenter?  At the simplest, it is a vessel with an 
open top.  Depending on the size of the fermenter, they are often covered
by some form of lid.  The bigger versions are truly open, large shallow
vessels, some are lined with stainless steel or an enamel like coating that
is usually used over a concrete/block foundation. Often the fermenters are
just large stainless steel cylinders.  Most, but not all, have some form
of attemperater device, to combat the temperature rise during ferments. This
can be in the form of exterior jacketing, or metal piping that is immersed
in the wort, cold water or glycol is pumped inside the pipes, cooling the
ferment.  Probably the most classic open fermenters are the Yorkshire Squares
used at the Samual Smiths brewery in Tadcaster, England.  These are made of 
flat slate walls, sealed together, with a collecting lid where the excess 
krausen is contained. 

OK, so your thinking open fermentation only works in big breweries since 
they are filtering the air, and keeping the whole room under positive 
pressure, and nobody is allowed in.  Yes, and no.  Sure, lots of breweries
go to the extreme of maintaining a separate room with filtered air.  Lots
more don't do anything.  Certainly, the breweries in England that I visited
never went to the extreme of filtered air, nor did the breweries in Bavaria
and Belgium.  Belgian methods of brewing may seem strange , but the
dominant flavor profiles found in Belgium beers are a result of the choice
of a yeast strain(s) that throws high levels of esters and phenolics, and 
rarely a result of some infection in the fermenter (even though this is 
the way to produce lambics, the word infection is a misnomer in 
this context). Certainly, the Bavarian brewmasters would recoil in horror
if any foreign bacteria or wild yeast were to be found in the open 
fermenter, and in practice, they are not a problem.

I did not always use open fermenters, the first hundred or so of
my beers were made with a "closed carboy" system.  I put closed in quotes
since the carboy can be fitted with a blowoff tube, resulting in a kind
of hybrid closed/open fermenter.  Since fall '92, I have been using a 
open fermenter exclusively, and I am a devoted fan of the concept. My 
fermenter is a stainless steel cylinder, of roughly equal height to width,
with a heavy lid.  If you brew with a 10 or 15 gallon stainless steel kettle,
this can double as your fermenter, once you remove the hot break.  Some
brewers employ modified 1/2 BBl Sankey kegs, and these too make excellent
open fermenters.  I have also read of brewers modifying Golden Gate kegs and
using these as fermenters. The least desirable, but easiest to start with, 
is the plain plastic bucket.  The reason I say least desirable is that 
cleaning plastic is more difficult than stainless, and the inevitable 
scratches in the plastic walls can be harder to sanitize.  Even so, I know
of an award winning homebrewer who ferments in food grade plastic trash
cans, and another 2 BBl brewpub who ferments in large High Density Poly-
Ethelyne (HDPE) containers.  I have found that as you increase the brew 
length (volume of beer produced), it is easier to fabricate some sort of 
fermenter that can hold the entire batch. In this way, you will be limiting 
the number of vessels to sanitize and clean up.  It is far cheaper and easier 
to fabricate or modify a container to be an open ferementer than to make a 
closed one, particularly as the volume increases.  An important consideration 
when sizing the fermenter is to account for a large amount of krausen that 
can develop during the ferment.  Head space of 30% is optimum, but less can 
be used, with the result being some possible loss of product (which also 
occurs when using the blowoff carboy method).  

Of course, there are some limitations to using open fermenters. I believe
they are no more prone to infections than using carboys, but there is an
increased chance for infection if one has numerous fruit flies or other
animals around the fermenter, provided the lid is off. Probably the 
biggest limitation is that of time, I do not advise leaving the beer in
the fermenter for more than 2 weeks.  Of course, any ferment should be
racked by the second week, so maybe this isn't such a limitation after all.
The reason time is more important in open fermenters is not so much the 
proximity of the still beer to dead yeast, but of the danger of oxidation
reactions occurring as the beer sits.  In a closed system, this will not
be a problem, but as long as the beer is moved in a timely manner, the 
CO2 produced during open fermentation will protect the beer.  Another 
important factor to consider is the overall cleanliness of the fermentation
area.  It need not be sterile, but a reasonable degree of cleanliness is
in order, in particular for fermentation inside of a refrigerator.  Many
brewers use a temperature control device to moderate the ferment temperature
inside of a refrigerator.  If you use an open fermenter inside of a 
refrigerator, be sure to clean all obvious sources of contamination and 
general dirt.  Some may even want to sponge down the interior of the 
refrigerator with a mild sanitizer such as chlorine/water.  At the very 
least, all spilled trub, yeast and wort should be thoroughly cleaned up. 
Household pets should also be prevented from crawling into the fermenting 
beer, they may like the results too much!  My fermenter is located in the 
basement, a few feet off the ground, away from large drafts and any foreign 
debris sources.

*********************end part 1**********************************

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 14:43:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at daacdev1.stx.com>
Subject: Open fermentation article, pt 2 of 2

**********************begin part 2, open fermentation*******************

Heres a summary of how I use my open fermenter.  Since I use a stainless
fermenter, I don't want to use a chlorine based sanitizer, due to problems
with corrosion.  So, I prepare a solution of Iodophor, at 12.5 ppm (1 oz
in 10 gallons), of a few gallons.  Using rubber gloves, I sponge the 
sanitizer over the sides of the fermenter.  I let it run out the drain, 
then back over the sides of the fermenter.  I also run Iodophor through 
my wort chiller into the fermenter, followed by a hot water rinse. Once
the hot water is drained, the vessel is ready for cast out wort.  I fill
the fermenter from the wort chiller, oxygenate and add thick yeast slurry.
As in any fermentation, there is no substitute for pitching enough viable
clean yeast.  The key to success with an open fermenter (or closed) is 
a sanitized vessel, and an adequate amount of pitching yeast.  Remember to
use significantly more yeast if the original gravity of the wort is higher
than 1.060.  If one is using enough yeast, visible fermentation is evident 
within 12 hours (ale wort, fermented between 60-70 F). As soon as the 
fermenter is full and the yeast is pitched, place the lid on.  Once the 
fermentation is generating a thick head of krausen, I have found it helpful
to leave the lid partially cracked, allowing an airspace for the large 
amounts of CO2 to vent.  With the ferment in high krausen, the classic 
dense rocky heads will form.  At this stage, trub will be scrubbed from 
the ferment, and rise to the surface, along with other solid matter that
was carried over into the fermenter.  This scum can be skimmed off with a
sanitized spoon (I leave a long handled stainless steel spoon in some 
Iodophor and just rinse it off when needed).  The ability to skim the 
trub and yeast that rise to the top of the fermenter is one of the
main advantages of open fermentation.  Don't overdo it, but about once a
day or every other day, depending on the rate of ferment, skim the top.
Many ale yeasts tend to flocculate at the top of the ferment as the ferment
diminishes.  This yeast is excellent to skim and store in a sanitized 
container, in a cold fridge (as close to 32F as possible).  When choosing
yeast to save, be sure to wait a few days into the ferment so that the 
trub is scrubbed away and the harvested yeast is clean.  As the ferment
dies down, keep the lid over the vessel.  Another great plus of open 
fermenting is the ease of dry hopping.  What I do is let the main fermentation
subside and when the yeast clumps to the surface, skim as much off as 
possible, then add the loose whole hops (I find that whole hops give better
aroma and are easier to use with an open fermenter).  Allow at least 3 
days time for the dry hopping to take affect.  I would avoid leaving the 
beer in the primary for longer than 2 weeks, and aim for 10 days when 
dry hopping, and a mere 5 days otherwise.  These are optimum figures for
ale ferments, and are often not realistic in homebrewing, the primary
cause being inadequate oxygenation of the cast out wort, and/or insufficient
yeast cell densities/viabilities in the pitching yeast.  To rack off of 
the hops, use a sanitized copper/brass or stainless "choreboy" scouring
pad, held over the racking cane with a rubber band.  Alternatively, the 
hops can be removed with a sanitized strainer, provided a minimum of air
is introduced to the still beer.  

Important points to remember:

Pitch plenty of healthy yeast slurry, between 1/2 and 1 oz. of slurry per
gallon of wort, or at least 1 QT of yeast starter per 5 gallons wort.
Professionally, pitching rates are on the order of 1/2 to 1 pound of 
slurry per barrel of wort. 

If you have a way to increase the dissolved oxygen levels of the wort, do
so.  At the least, splash the wort when filling the fermenter.  Using an 
airstone and filtered air for the first few hours is even better.

Keep the lid on most of the time.  This helps to trap the CO2, and since 
the finished still beer will have around 1 volume of dissolved CO2 in solution,
there will be a thin blanket of CO2 over the beer, protecting the beer 
from detrimental oxidation reactions.  Once the ferment is producing large
quantities of foam/krausen, it is good to leave the lid cracked, but as 
soon as the krausen begins to subside, keep it covered.

To harvest yeast, wait for the initial fermentation to scrub the dark
trub and remove this trub with a sanitized spoon prior to harvesting the 
yeast.  Some yeasts can be stored for 2-3 weeks in a sanitized container, 
preferably in a cold 32F refrigerator.  Some yeasts are quite prone to 
mutations, and if this is the case, storing for 10 days is the upper limit.
If the yeast is to be stored for longer periods, it is advisable to feed 
fresh wort into the container, and allow another period of fermentation 
to occur prior to pitching into a fresh batch of wort.

Fining agents, such as isinglass, can be added directly to the primary 
fermenter, provided the desired degree of attenuation has been achieved.
Polyclar, or PVPP can also be added directly to the fermenter, although 
these products should be filtered from the beer prior to serving.  

Lagers can be made using open fermenters but the timing and temperature 
control issues make it more difficult to do than ales.  When fermenting 
lagers in a refrigerator, I would recommend keeping the lid on for the
entire primary, and racking the beer into the lagering vessel as soon as
primary fermentation is complete, or 90% complete.  

Conclusion:

Fermenting in an open vessal can be an effective and convienent method of
beer production and yeast harvesting, especially when brewing ales.  It is
an easy way to skim trub that rises to the surface of the ferment, and
can be a cost effective method to increase batch sizes.

            
Footnotes:

[1] Classic Beer Styles Series #6, Belgian Ale, Pierre Rajotte, pg. 79.

[2] Classic Beer Styles Series #7, German Wheat Beer, Eric Warner, pg. 71.


Jim Busch is an electrical engineer developing real time systems for NASA.
He has been an all grain brewer and beer traveler since 1988.  When he is 
not beer hunting, he can be found on the Internet at:
busch at daacdev1.stx.com

 

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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 11:46:07 +48000
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Wyeast 1338

Barry Nisly asks in #1551:

> am I being impatient or does Wyeast 1338 just keep going,
> and going, and going. 

I will not answer that question, perhaps some one else can, though it is
a common observation.

Here is what I have decided is the deal with 1338, based on information
from  Maribeth Raines, Al Korzonas, Chris Raymond, and others. 

Wyeast 1338 is prone to petite mutation, particularly at higher
fermentation and storage temperatures.  For those who care, yeast, unlike
most other eukaryotes contain a single huge mitochondrian, which is the
respiratory "organ" of the cell (lung if you will).  This is where O2 is
utilized for respiration.  Mitochondria were once free living
bacteria-like organisms that entered into a symbiotic relationship with
some other organism.  The mitochondria inhabited their hosts suppling
energy in the form of ATP and in turn getting fed.  As time went by and
evolution worked its conservative magic, the mitochondria found that they
could shuck huge quantities of their own DNA and hence cellular functions
and rely on the host to support them.  Today mitochondria have miniscule
amounts of DNA coding for very few very essential genes.  When
mitochondria divide (think of them as a tolerated intracellular infection)
sometimes a mutation occurs in its very small and sensitive genome that
knocks out respiratory function.  In cells that have 100s or 1000s of
mitochondria (like human cells) some non-functioning mitochondria are
no problem, but in yeast which have a single very large mitochondria
such a mutation can give rise to a "petite mutant".  These are yeast
whose mitochondria are respiratorially challenged and as a result the
yeast cells and colonies are stunted and small, hence the term petite.

So Wyeast 1338 is not a mixed strain the small colonies that one often
sees arising spontatneously when streaked are petite mutants and SHOULD
NOT be propagated.

I like this yeast and made a (IMHO) good altbier (though not quite dark
enough) with it.  I find that it yields a smooth rather malty brew, that
to me has what I think of as a "round" flavor profile (whatever that 
means).  

Good brewing.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com





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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 11:46:20 PDT
From: hollen at megatek.com (Dion Hollenbeck)
Subject: Re: half barrel sources

>>>>> "Bob" == Btalk  <Btalk at aol.com> writes:

Bob> Would someone please post the names, addresses etc. for the
Bob> stainless half kegs to convert into brewpots? It seems that the
Bob> stainless kegs are becoming scarce in my area.

The only legal places I know of are BCI and SABCO.

BCI  Industries, Inc.
6400 Highway 51 South
Brighton, TN  38011
901 476-8000
800-284-9410

Don't have the SABCO address at hand, but it is in Zymurgy.

dion

Dion Hollenbeck (619)675-4000x2814     Email: hollen at megatek.com
Staff Software Engineer     Megatek Corporation, San Diego, California

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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:32:42 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Emery <jimery at u.washington.edu>
Subject: fermentation length

Hi all.  This is a bit of a silly question but I recently brewed a 
mash/extract stout that seemed to ferment out in 12 days.  Since it 
seemed to be finished fermenting, I bottled it.  This seemed reasonable 
since Charlie Papazian said most beers fermented at ale temps will be 
finished fermenting in 8 to 14 days.

When I was looking through winners circle of the latest Zymurgy, however, I 
could not find a beer that had not been fermented for at least a month.  
Most of the ales were fermented at ale temps for two weeks and then 
dropped down to lager temps.  Is the significantly longer fermentation
period mainly to clarify the beer and let yeast, protiens etc settle out?
Am I shortchanging myself by bottling too early?  Does fermentation continue 
slowly for up to a month?  Any insight would be appreciated.  Cheers.  Jim  

Return to table of contents


Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 15:35:16 EDT
From: Kristy J. Wiland <eng4kjw at hibbs.vcu.edu>
Subject: request for recipes

     Does anyone out there know a good recipe to make cider from? We
are beer brewers who want to make cider (we are talking about the
alcoholic variety). 

also, any all grain recipes would be appreciated... can never have
too many things to try (fruit and or spice beers especially intrest
us, as well as new and interesting ways to make stouts)
anything ya got, we got the disk space
send send send

thanks! 
kristy the beer wench

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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 12:51:59 -0600
From: stanf at indirect.com (Stan Fisher)
Subject: Re: CO2 tanks sloshing etc. 

Dion> Pick up a newly filled CO2 tank and shake it.  What is it that
Dion> you hear and feel sloshing back and forth.  If it does not
Dion> souund and feel liquid, then I have a real sensory handicap.
Dion> Science and supposition aside, how about a little empirical
Dion> observation here?

Tracy> I just happened to get a new cylinder of CO2 yesterday. Upon
Tracy> receiving this, I proceeded to shake it, listening for the
Tracy> "sloshing" you describe. I didn't hear or feel anything moving.
Tracy> Any comments?

I missed the beginning of this one but, an important thing to consider
when getting CO2 filled and this could have a lot to do if you hear/feel
the liquid in side.
If you can, get your tanks filled someplace that has a CO2 pump.  I've 
always gone to a place in Tempe called Sidler carbonics. They fill tanks 
once a day when they fire up the pump.  They force liquid CO2 into your tank
and weigh it as they fill.  when my tank increases in weight by 20 pounds, 
they disconnect it.  I get a full tank of liquid.  Once I ran out on the 
weekend and Sidler was closed.  I ran down to the local "keg barn" type of
place and got my tank "filled".  All they have is a bigger tank in the back
that they hook up to the customers tank and let the pressure equalize. You
get some liquid... about 4 or 5 pounds in a 20 pound tank!  They charge you
$1 pound for the size of the tank, not the weighed product they give you.
So.. I get 4 or 5 pounds of CO2 for $20 when it's an emergency and I get
20 pounds of CO2 for $9 at Sidler's when I plan ahead.  Buyer beware!

Stan
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
   Stan Fisher       |       stanf at indirect.com  - 165.247.1.4
 (602) 893-3620 (H)  |             I brew therefore I am.
 (602) 496-0035 (W)  |  Friends don't let friends drink Light Beer.


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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:26:41 +1000 (EST)
From: David Draper <David.Draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: Double-bucket efficiencies

Dear Friends, in HBD 1551, BrewerLee at aol.com opined that one could get by
with the Zapap/double-bucket/twin-bin sparging setup for partial mashes,
but appeared to suggest that one would be doomed to poor extraction
efficiency if one used such a system for all-grain batches.  Sorry, but I
don't buy this.  Since partial mashing refers only to obtaining something
less than the full amount of wort from grain (the rest being made up of
malt extract), for a given setup (whether twin-bin, cooler-manifold, or
whatever) there is no reason to expect that mashing a larger amount of
grain (i.e., as in a full- grain batch) will of necessity give a poorer
result than mashing a smaller amount of grain (as in a partial mash).  At
the extremes, there could be vagaries, but for the amounts that I use, at
least (and I suspect many others too), there is no real difference.  Some
data: I use a twin-bin setup, the inner drilled bucket having been donated
to me by the gracious Andy Walsh, founder/operator of Legless Brewing Co. 
In my mashes (I usually make 22-23L), I use in the vicinity of 3 to 3.5 kg
of grain and typically augment with a kilo or two of extract syrup (give
or take depending on style).  In my first few, while I was getting my wits
about me, I got about 22-23 pts/lb/gal, and then started getting better at
what I was doing, going up to 26-27 for the next few, then >28-29,
occaisonally >30, from then on.  In some of these partial mashes, I have
used 4.5 kg of grain, which is not far from what many all- grainers use
who make 5 US gallon batches.  I fail to see how the twin-bin will know
that there will be malt extract added to the wort it generates later in
the brewing session.  Lee, at what amount of grain do you reckon the
extraction efficiency will start suffering? What do others think?

Cheers, Dave in Sydney

- --
"Never trust a brewer who has only one chin" ---Aidan Heerdegen
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....


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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 19:12:01 -0400
From: aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu (Jason Sloan)
Subject: Octoberfest



Can someone please send me a recipe (pref. all grain, doesn't really
matter tho) for an Octoberfest style beer.  I have tried Paulaner's
version and liked it.  I also tried Coor's attempt/version at the 
style but thought it was pretty weak.  Big surprise there.

Private E-mail is fine.  TIA              Jason


- --
Jason Sloan
sloan01?jason at cc01.mssc.edu or aa3625 at freenet.lorain.oberlin.edu
- ---Yo ho ho and a bucket of homebrew...

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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 17:14:02 -0700
From: ron_hall at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com
Subject: Brew kettle spigot 

Item Subject: Text_1
I have a very nice 10 gallon stainless steel Vollrath pot that I use for a 
brew kettle that I would like to install a spigot in.   It has taken me a 
year or so to get up the nerve to cut a hole in this $135 pot, but after a 
year of either siphoning or dumping 5-6 gallons of chilled wort into the  
carboy, I'm ready to take the plunge.  I don't want to pay the expense of 
having a spigot welded into the pot right now, so I thought I would try 
drilling a hole and then sandwiching a fabric washer with two pipe fittings 
in the hole, a la Easymasher (tm)  (Look at a JSP ad for details). My 
questions are:

 -How high up should I drill the hole from the bottom to leave the cold 
break?

 -Will the fabric washer hold up to the 35k BTU propane burner I use for 
boiling?  Note that this is for a brew kettle, not a mash tun (I use a Gott 
cooler for mashing), so it will see much prolonged heat. 

 -What should I use to strain out loose hops, cold break, etc., on the 
inside of the brew kettle?  Easymasher or Jeff Frane super-centrifugal 
siphon ring?

Any other advice would be very much appreciated. TIA.

Ron Hall, Corvallis, OR

ron_hall at hp-corvallis.om.hp.com

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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 14:39:49 +1000
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: SF pubs and shops

I have a friend travelling to San Francisco in a few weeks.
He wants to know if there are any decent pubs (brewpubs?),
microbreweries and homebrew shops near Union Square,
where he is staying.
Any private replies to me will be forwarded on ASAP.

TIA,
Andy W. (awalsh at ozemail.com.au, for you COYOTE types)






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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 1994 23:05:11 -0800
From: iafinnegan at ucdavis.edu (Isaac Finnegan)
Subject: brewing survey-oops

hi.
uc davis just reconfigured thier internet systems and the mail applications
are all goobered up.  as a result some of the people who requested the
survey might not have received it.  if you are one of those people, i
apologize.  please send me another request and i will make sure to get it
to you this time.
thanks.

- --james
  jeclark at ucdavis.edu
              <OR>
  iafinnegan at ucdavis.edu



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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 03:17:47 -0400
From: RobertL933 at aol.com
Subject: Ann Arbor Brew Pubs/Beer Bars

Bill Slack inquired about brewpubs or beer bars in Ann Arbor in HBD 1545. I
hope this helps.
There are no brewpubs in Ann Arbor at the present time. The Grizzly Peak
Brewing Company is under construction, but no firm date has been set for
opening. However, there are several bars with extensive beer selections in
the downtown area.

The Full Moon - S. Main, Downtown. Great selection of bottled imports and
U.S. micros. Lambics and wheats as well as ales and lagers. Guiness on tap.
Also pool tables and decent bar food.

The One Eyed Moose - 207 S. Main. Not quite as extensive a collection as the
Full Moon, but still pretty good.

Ashley's - 338 S. State. 25 beers on tap. Newcastle, Young's, Whitbread,
Fullers, Guiness. Other European brands, Paulaner, Pilsner Urquel, Hacker
Pschorr. Also Ciders, and some U.S. micros. A large selection of single malt
scotch's are also available. Sorry haven't eaten the food here.



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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 06:21:45 -0400
From: Btalk at aol.com
Subject: abbreviations,etc

Hey Ed,
You left out one of my favorites:
AMF    (adios motherfu****)

Seriously folks, I've called and left messages twice asking for catalog/info
from the place in New Hampshire that sells the electronics kits for temp
controllers,etc. Never received a reply. Any ideas what 's up with this
place?

Bob Talkiewicz

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Date: 14 Oct 94 08:07:49 EDT
From: "William F. Cook" <71533.2750 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Legal problems in Tidewater, VA


Just thought I'd provide this little anecdote for anyone who is interested or
who can provide any assistance:

I recently move to the tidewater, VA area and have joined a homebrew club.
Unfortunately, they're having problems with the local legal authorities. It
seems that, a couple of months ago, the local ABC authorities showed up at a
meeting and confiscated all of their homebrew, saying that they were 
participating in an illegal activity. One of the club members is a lawyer, so
she wrote a lengthy appeal full of wheras's and heretofore's and all of the
appropriate citations.

The local ABC response was basically this: "I'm, the local all-powerful big
bad government ABC guy, and I say that from now on it's illegal for you to
take your homebrew out of your house for any reason and therefore illegal to
hold competitions, tastings, homebrew meetings, etc. If you don't like it,
tough s***. Go to Richmond." The VA ABC guys, according to most people who
have dealt with them, are as bad as if not worse than the IRS.

So, the club has appealed to the Richmond ABC authorities, but after 6 weeks
we still have no reply. Also, the club has sought help from the AHA, who were
very forthcoming with promises but if they're doing anything we have yet to
see it. In Northern VA, the James River Brewers are holding competitions,
advertising Octoberfests, etc. while our "homebrew" meetings are little more
than gatherings at which we taste microbrews.

Any advice from the collective wisdom here on the forum?

Bill Cook
HydroComp, Inc.
Team Dennis Conner


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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:25:49 -0400
From: BrewerLee at aol.com
Subject: Wit beer request

I have a question for all of you belgian ale brewers.

I'm going to make a Wit Bierre at the next club meeting.  I would like any
comments, tips etc that you all could give me.

Here's the grain bill I worked up:

4 lbs 2 row
3-1/2 lbs Wheat Malt
1/2 lb Whole Wheat Flour
1 oz Saaz (4%) 60 min
3/4 oz fresh ground Corriander seeds
1/4 oz dried bitter Orange peel

O.G.: 1.046   I.B.U. (est):18   Color: 5

I figured an extract efficiency of 83% to allow for any problems the unmalted
wheat might give me and of course the IBU's are estimated by Ragers formula
for pellets.

I need some help with yeast selection, mash and any other tips anyone might
have.

I was also thinking of doing a sour mash to get the lactic souring, yes/no?
 How much of the mash?

I'll sumarize and re-post so e-mail is fine.

 -Lee Bussy
 BrewerLee at aol.com


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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:36:38 -0400 (EDT)
From: Baker Ashley V H <3avhb at qlink.queensu.ca>
Subject: Will Wyeast Kolsch autolyse quickly? &c

The thought has occured to me and a friend of mine to try a 
cask-conditioned Kolsch.  The only question is, is Wyeast Kolsch (2526, I 
think?) even remotely suitable for cask-conditioning?  How quickly will 
it autolyse with beer sitting on top of it?  Does anyone have any 
experience with this yeast?  TIA and all that -- e-mail, and I'll post 
the results.

\\\

Ulick says "No-one has ever adequately explained the Ontario laws to me."

Well, the reason for that is basically that the Ontario liquor laws don't 
make enough sense to be adequately explained to anyone...  The most 
succinct summary of the informing principle behind them that I've heard 
is this:  "The Ontario government has not yet realised that Queen 
Victoria is dead, and that the WCTU is no longer a major force."  That's 
about all you need to know.  :)

\\\

Lee Bussy says not to worry about bulging cans of extract.	

I've never heard the thought that extract crystallises and thus causes a 
can to bulge -- it sounds good to me.  _But,_ there is the possibility, 
however remote, that the cans are infected with botulism.  The problem 
with botulism is that the bacteria excrete a substance which is a _very_ 
nasty poison.  Boiling will kill the bacteria, but the poison will still 
be there, and it _can_ kill you.  The possibility is slight, but I 
personally wouldn't take the risk.  Perhaps someone with more microbio 
and a knowledge of how extract is canned can reassure us.

Cheers!

Ash Baker
3avhb at qlink.queensu.ca -- Queen's University, Kingston, Ontario
Drinka Pinta Bittera Day!

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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:42:47 -0500
From: "Malcolm Tobias" <mtobias at wurel.wustl.edu>
Subject: making partials from extract recipies


Now that I've tried a few partial recipies and really enjoyed the results,
I'm wondering about changing some of my extract recipies to partials.  What
I had in mind was using the specialty grains (that I used to add to my water
as it was heating up) to make a partial mash.  Would this be worth the effort?
In general, how does one go about converting a recipie like this?

thanks in advance,

- -- 
Malcolm Tobias
mtobias at wurel.wustl.edu 				...Zmail welcome...
http://jean-luc.ncsa.uiuc.edu/People/Malcolm/HOME.html


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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 8:44:31 MDT
From: npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM
Subject: Nit Picking

Lee Bussy writes:

>Tom Parent expressed concern about his pumpkin ale:

>> I'm concerned that when I
>> dumped the beer off the top of the carboy, I dumped most of the still active
>> yeast along with it.  Can this happen?
>
>It technically could, but I don't think so.  It's probably about fermented
>out.  Let it sit and check the SG in a day or so if there is no activity.

No no no.  It is technically impossible.  The yeast is running around the
entire wort; the only way to remove it is to filter it out.  The advice on
letting it sit is fine, though I'd wait more than a day or two.

Cheers,
Norm
npyle at hp7013.ecae.stortek.com

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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:56:24 +0059 (EDT)
From: Michael Ligas <ligas at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca>
Subject: Fermentap Inquiry

Hello all. I have a question concerning a product that is advertised in
the recent issue of Zymurgy. The *Fermentap* appears to be, by the drawing
in the ad, a fairly solid attachment that allows for inverted fermentation
in a carboy with convenient yeast harvesting and racking. Has anyone
ordered and tried this unit? If so, what's the verdict? 

Also, I tried calling the 1-800 number from Canada and it didn't work, so
I'm in need of a regular phone number for the manufacturer. I'd appreciate
it if someone could forward me that info. BTW, the toll free line is
1-800-942-2750, in case anyone is interested. If you get through, ask for
their regular #. Thanks and take care. 

Michael Ligas - ligas at mcmail.cis.mcmaster.ca


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Date: Thu, 13 Oct 94 18:31:24 PDT
From: tlopez at armon.com
Subject: Homebrew shop in Tel-Aviv

Does anyone knows of a homebrew shop in Tel-Aviv, Israel??

Thanks,

Tito


- -------------------------------------
Name: Tito
E-mail: tlopez at armon.com
Phone: (805) 965-0859
Fax: (805) 965-5689

OnSite ... Your Network Point of View
- -------------------------------------



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Date: 14 Oct 94 11:31:48 EDT
From: "William F. Cook" <71533.2750 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Flames for the Flame


In #1551, Steve Ellwood writes:

>Hello...is there anyone left out there who is actually still interested in 
>what Jim-Bob Seersucker thinks about the internal policies and management 
>decisions at UPS?!  I mean the HBD has become a forum for any "puke" to 
>either bash people who actually have valid brewing questions (although maybe 
>not in the eyes of the wolves lurking the Internet), or spew there opinions 
>(quite annoying) over, and over, and over adnauseam.  (By-the-by this is my 
>first post)...[cut]...Furthermore, what would make me absolutely ecstatic 
>(as if anyone gives a sh*t) is if every message didn't end with the banner
>"Hoppy Brewing." 

Well, if there ever was an example of "spewing" and opinion, this is it. I
believe I started the thread because I genuinely wanted to know what the
law was. I am sincerely thankfull to all those who replied, even to those who
provided dubious information, and especially to those who have provided the
corrections. Hoppy Brewing to short_fuse at unimpressive.first_post.com, and no, 
I don't give a sh*t.




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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 08:28:53 -0400
From: BTcirc at aol.com
Subject: BT goes second class

BT is happy to announce that effective the September/October issue, we have
second class mailing privileges (permit pending). This should speed delivery
to subscribers; our first experience with second-class mailing suggests it
travels as fast or almost as fast as first class mail. Contact the
circulation manager at btcirc at aol.com if you have any questions about your
subscription.


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Date: 14 Oct 1994 08:43:43 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Generating AAU Tables

Hi Group,
Over the past couple days, I have been pondering my most common brewing
problem. How much hops to use. 
I rarely brew from a published recipe; I figure my grain bill, estimate an OG,
and then plan a hops schedule. Trouble is, Hop utilization is influenced by the
wort gravity. And, that gravity is dependant on the Mash. Now that I am brewing
outside, it is not convenient to run back into the house with my OG reading and
run my Excel spreadsheet to check the effect of a different OG than my estimate
for each hop addition. 
So, what I did was to work the IBU equation so that it generated a table of
IBUs versus Gravity to point to an AAU level (amt x ounces). This way I can
stick this chart to the wall, take my hydrometer reading as I begin the boil
(correcting for temp, of course), and check on the amount of hops I am adding
to arrive at my target IBUs for that addition. 

The equation is AAU = IBU x OG x (V/Util x .75)
   where OG is the Adjusted Gravity (if > 1.050),
   V is the boil volume, Util is the % util for your boil time
   and .75 is the oz/gal conversion factor.
 By the way, Use your own favorite utilization numbers. In this example, for 60
minutes, I used 26%. YMMV.

You should note that the chart is for a specific Volume and Boil Time.
Here is an example:
 AAU Table for 60 min Boil of 10 Gal  (26% utilization)

IBUs          <- OG ->
     1.046 1.048 1.050 1.052 1.054 1.056 1.058
54   27.7 	27.7 	27.7 	28.0	 28.2	 28.5	 28.8
52   26.7 	26.7 	26.7 	26.9	 27.2	 27.5 	27.7
50   25.6	 25.6 	25.6 	25.9	 26.2 	26.4 	26.7
48   24.6	 24.6 	24.6  24.9 	25.1	 25.4 	25.6
46   23.6 	23.6 	23.6	 23.8	 24.1	 24.3 	24.5    BTW, I realize that the 
44   22.6 	22.6	 22.6	 22.8 	23.0	 23.2 	23.5    tenths are not statistically
42   21.5 	21.5 	21.5 	21.8	 22.0	 22.2 	22.4    significant, I included them
40   20.5 	20.5	 20.5  20.7 	20.9	 21.1 	21.3    for indicating (high/low).
38   19.5 	19.5 	19.5 	19.7	 19.9	 20.1	 20.3
36   18.5 	18.5 	18.5 	18.6 	18.8 	19.0	 19.2
34   17.4 	17.4 	17.4 	17.6	 17.8	 18.0	 18.1
32   16.4 	16.4 	16.4	 16.6	 16.7	 16.9	 17.1
30   15.4	 15.4	 15.4	 15.5	 15.7	 15.8	 16.0
28   14.4	 14.4 	14.4	 14.5	 14.6 	14.8	 14.9
26   13.3	 13.3	 13.3	 13.5	 13.6 	13.7	 13.9

I have generated several such tables for my own use. Different boil times (ie
utils) and either 5 or 10 Gallons. I could use the same table scheme to
generate an Ounces versus % Alphas table, freeing me entirely from electronic
bondage in the brewery.  (irony)

 -John Palmer MDA-SSD M&P palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com  
  "I'm an Engineer, Captain, I canna help myself!" - Scotty

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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 09:14:57 -0700
From: barry at odf.UCSD.EDU (Barry Nisly)
Subject: Old Hops / New Hops / Plugs

In HBD 1550 Richard M. asked about old hops for a lambic.  This fall's
Williams catalog lists several varieties of 1992 hops for sale (cheap!).
>From memory, they had US Hallertau, UK Fuggles & Kent Goldings.  I don't
receive any money from William's but I give them my credit card number 
sometimes.

I called my local HB shop and they said they were out of Cascade :-(.
He said they won't be getting any more until the new crop comes in. 
Anyone know when that will be?

Also, is it true that all US hop plugs are plugged in the UK?  You'd think
that they could buy a plug machine (or build one), save all the shipping 
costs, and drop the price some.

Oh, I almost forgot...Hoppy Brewing to Steve Elwood!

Barry Nisly
bnisly at ucsd.edu

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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 94 10:28:45 -0600
From: lmsabo at mbnoa1.mnet.uswest.com (L M Sabo)
Subject: Wyeast problem


Has anyone else had a problem with the Wyeast "smack pack" popping its
contents before you were ready to pitch? This has now happened to me twice.
It both cases I had activated the yeast only 24 hours previous. On the second
occasion I realized the yeasts were "over partying" so I placed the package
(a 3068 wheat as I recall) in the fridge for two hours. I removed it 2 hours
before I needed to pitch. However during the boil it popped.

Just so you don't get the wrong idea, the stuff doesn't blast out like
grandpa's bottles of homebrew. It just pops the plastic liner and you
loose about a tablespoon. In both cases the beer fermented fine. 

I suspect the problem is either that I got to warm or it is a manufacturing
problem with the liner. Or on the positive side it could be that the yeast
were extremely fresh.

_Michael

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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 13:09:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Seth L. Betaharon" <sethb at wam.umd.edu>
Subject: Aerating starter cultures

If I recall correctly, I once read something about frequently swirling a
starter culture in order to stir up the yeast sediment and to aerate the
culture.  This way, the yeast can perform aerobic respiration, which is 
more efficient than anaerobic respiration, and multiply faster.  So my 
question is:  instead of frequently shaking the culture, what could I 
expect if I used an aquarium air pump (with filter, of course) to 
constantly aerate the starter culture.

If anyone has tried this or could offer any suggestions concerning how 
this might work, a response would be greatly appreciated.

Seth L. Betaharon

sethb at wam.umd.edu


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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 11:52:44 -0400 (EDT)
From: sam at deuce.toolsmiths.on.ca (Sean MacLennan)
Subject: McEwans malt liquor

While in Cape Breton Nova Scotia Canada this summer, I had the supreme
pleasure of trying a McEwans Malt Liquor. Does anyone have a
recipe/ideas/insight into this beer?

	Sean MacLennan
	sam at toolsmiths.on.ca
	There is no bad beer, only better!

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Date: Fri, 14 Oct 1994 10:34:30 -0700
From: especkma at reed.edu (Erik Speckman)
Subject: The chore of liquid yeast.

Someone complained about the tedium of using liquid yeast and said they
were seriously considering going back to dry yeasts.

Personally, I don't find using liquid yeasts tedious, they require a little
more time and attention but not much.

I think the most time consuming part is making the starter.  You can avoid
some of this by making starters up in bulk and canning them.  I can find
canning jars at thrift stores for 5 or 10 cents each, rings and lids are a
few bucks, a jar lifter is another few bucks and you are set. You can
probably use your brewpot as your canner, put a folded square of
cheesecloth (several layers thick) on the bottom under the jars to keep
them from jumping.

Boil the jars and lids.  At the same time boil a big batch of starter wort,
pour it into the jars and cap them, boil them and then set them aside to
cool.  It won't take more than an hour or two.  Then when your yeast packet
is ready you just have to open a bottle of sterile wort and pour it into
your starter vessel with  the yeast.  (I would resist the temptation to
underfill the canning jars and pitcthe starter directly into them.  I am
worried that too much of a vacuum would be created upon cooling.)

Hoppy Brewing (snicker)

______________________________________________________________________
Erik A. Speckman       Seattle, Washington      Good Brain Doesn't Suck
especkma at reed.edu                                  especkma at halcyon.com



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1553, 10/15/94