FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  NDN: Homebrew Digest #1589 (November 26, 1994) (Gateway)
  Ron Price?/FOOP (Domenick Venezia)
  Head retention & blowoffs ("NAME SEAN O'KEEFE, IFAS FOOD SCIENCE")
  Pectic Enzymes (Pierre Jelenc)
  Hydrogen sulfide: No, I won't relax and I am worrying. (Gary Bell)
  Message from MSELLMA at CARVM8 (CARVM8)
  Re: Raspberry Ale Catastrophe - I'll try this again! (Gary Bell)
  CIDER RECIPE (eric.schweikert)
  Re:Seattle beer, Comments (Segolene Badelon)
  Beer Party (Al Vaughn)
  KEG HOMEBREW IN BOTTLES (ding.dong)
  Minimal blowoff, old Cincinnati beers ("nancy e. renner")
  Odd tastes in cream ale... (va.gal)
  CBF foaming (Lee Bollard)
  Homebrew Digest #1589 (November 26, 1994) (RONALD DWELLE)
  Over-aeration (BOWEMEISTER)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 26 Nov 1994 01:23:12 -0000
From: Gateway at foxmail.gfc.edu (Gateway)
Subject: NDN: Homebrew Digest #1589 (November 26, 1994)

Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

ymoriya,George Fox College (The name was not found at the remote site. Check
that the name has been entered correctly.)


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Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 08:48:13 -0800 (PST)
From: Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com>
Subject: Ron Price?/FOOP

A short personal note: RON PRICE, please send me your new email address.

In #1589, the second Al K. wrote:

>The proteins that form the head foam are denatured (retain their chemical
>composition, but change shape) during foam formation. That is, they are only
>free to form foam once.

>From the eternally skeptical corner:

This is the first I've heard of FOOP (Foam Once Only Proteins).  I'd like
to hear more about this, a lot more.  For instance, what is denaturing
these proteins?  What happens to them to prevent them from foaming again? 
What the source of this idea/data?  Is this perhaps related to the idea
that force carbonation reduces head formation and retention by the
mechanical shearing of proteins as the bubbles form and break (see Erik
Speckman in #1440)? 

Actually this could be easily tested with a bottle of homebrew and a lab
shaker.  After a while the sample should cease (weakly) foam.  If I do it
I'll report back.  Anyone have any ideas on how to objectively measure
foam formation?  100 ml sample in a 250 ml cylinder and shake the heck out
of it - measure height of foam after 15 secs continuous agitation? 

WARNING: Turkey is a soporific. Do not operate heavy machinery while under
         its influence.

Domenick Venezia
ZymoGenetics, Inc.
Seattle, WA
venezia at zgi.com






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Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 12:03:51 -0500 (EST)
From: "NAME SEAN O'KEEFE, IFAS FOOD SCIENCE" <SFO at gnv.ifas.ufl.edu>
Subject: Head retention & blowoffs

Al in 1589 suggested that the proteins are irreversibly "used up" during
denaturation to stabilize krausen bubbles and would not act to stabilize
foam in your glass.  I would think that the denaturation in beer at the 
CO2-water interface would be rather mild.  Proteins that are denatured by
shear force, for example egg white proteins during whipping to form the
aerogel, would be irreversible denatured.  But sice the force on beer
proteins is minimal, the proteins would likely align on the nonpolar-
polar interface BW CO2-water and only slightly unfold.  Not all proteins
in wort would lead to foam stability.  factors affecting the ability of a
protein to stabilize a foam include concentration, viscosity, structure, 
denaturation, salts, pH, temperature, denaturants and complimentary
surfactants. If blow-off leads to loss of proteins that are particularly
important in foam stability then in theory this would lead to lower 
foam stability in the glass.  But there are many factors that could
affect this (protein level/type in grains, protein rest etc etc).  Thus,
what could lead to lower foam stability for me might have no effect for you.
If you have foam stability problems and use a blowoff try the next batch
without blowoff to see if this helps.  Beware of detergents for cleaning
brewing equipment and your glasses (esp if you use a dishwasher with
rinsing agent).  

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Date: Sat, 26 Nov 94 13:35:56 EST
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Pectic Enzymes


In HBD 1589, Ward Weathers <psu01739 at odin.cc.pdx.edu> asks:

<< Does anyone know from where pectic enzymes are derived? >>

Sigma sells three types, derived from Aspergillus niger, Aspergillus 
japonicus, and undefined Rhizopus species.

Pierre


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Date: Sat, 26 Nov 1994 08:47:20 -0800
From: gbell at ix.netcom.com (Gary Bell)
Subject: Hydrogen sulfide: No, I won't relax and I am worrying.

I've seen similar questions posted before, and I've seen the calming 
answers, but I'm still worried. 

Details: I started a batch of extract pale ale on Thursday using 4 1/2 
lbs English DME, 1/2 lb Crystal and 2 oz Chocolate malt. The 2 1/2 
gallon boil was for 60 minutes with 3 additions of hops (Bullion, 
Cascade & Hallertauer) for about 40 IBU's. Immersion chiller before 
mixing and aerating with 2 1/2 gallon cold water - immediately pitched 
at 68 F in plastic under an airlock. I used about 3/4 quart of starter 
at high krauesen. The yeast was Mendocino, captured from "Eye of the 
Hawk", and the starter came from the secondary of a previous brew that 
was bottled two weeks ago. Furious fermentation achieved in 14 hours and 
all seemed well until 36 hours into the fermentation I opened the lid of 
the 32 gallon garbage can that I keep the fermenter in to stabilize 
temperature, expecting the wonderful smell of ferment and received a 
snoot-full of intense Hydrogen sulfide!

Now, if I'd been trying a new yeast or a new brand of extract, I 
wouldn't be so worried. The only thing new here was the Cascade hops 
which are fresh. I can't see any reason for the the new smell. 

Any hints? TIA.

Signed: Worried in Lake Elsinore.
(Gary)

- -- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary Bell                   "Quis dolor cui dolium?"
Lake Elsinore, CA                
(909) 674-3637 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: 27 Nov 1994 00:13:45
From: CARVM8 at vnet.IBM.COM
Subject: Message from MSELLMA at CARVM8

 vacation 

 The mail you sent has been archived.

 This message was sent by the SAFE automatic machine: do not reply.

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Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 08:50:40 -0800
From: gbell at ix.netcom.com (Gary Bell)
Subject: Re: Raspberry Ale Catastrophe - I'll try this again!

I don't know what happened the first time I tried to post this -- the 
text is probably winging it's way to the far end of the galaxy.

Eric Hale reported disaster with his raspberry ale blowing all over the 
kitchen.  I had a similar problem last week with not quite so 
devastating results. I split a 5 gallon batch into 5 one-gallon cider 
jugs at the secondary and added 1/2 pound of dried tart cherries to two, 
and 2 lbs of wild blackberries (Himalayaberries) to two. The other was a 
"fruitless control".

About 24 hours after adding the fruit the fruit started blow into the 
airlock. One airlock blew off completely, but I was there to prevent the 
loss of half the jug. The problem was that the fruit added so much 
fermentable sugar to the beer, but the berries and pulp form a layer on 
top of the beer that is almost impermeable to all the CO2 being 
released. I solved my problem by pouring off a small quantity of beer 
from the worst offenders (the blackberry) to increase the headspace, and 
swirling the jugs every 4 hours for the next 36 hours until the CO2 
production subsided. I then swirled them every 12 hours for the 
nextthree days and am now doing a daily swirl. This brings the CO2 up 
into the next and, conversely, lets the fruit "fall back" down onto the 
beer. I only really had one sleepless night, and I think I avoided any 
contamination.

I think Eric's beer will be fine, too. There is so much CO2 being 
produced that it provides a huge cushion to prevent oxidation and you 
probably didn't get contamination. Relax. Needless to say, next time I 
do this I'll be doing it in a *huge* secondary - I think I want at least 
a foot of straight-sided headspace to let the CO2 blow by the fruit.

Good luck & cheers,

Gary

- -- 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Gary Bell                   "Quis dolor cui dolium?"
Lake Elsinore, CA                
(909) 674-3637 
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

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Date: Sun, 27 Nov 94 15:34:45 
From: eric.schweikert at his.com
Subject: CIDER RECIPE



Following up on this thread about cider, I've had really outstanding luck 
with a recipe out of a wine-making book, which I thought I'd include here.  
Some of the ingredients are wine-specific, but I found them all in my 
local brew shop.

For 5 gal final volume:

* 5 gal unpreserved cider
* sugar or apple conc to raise OG to 1.060 (I used 5 cans froz. conc. 
apple juice (size to make 48 oz, no preservatives) + 0.5 cups brown sugar) 
(apple flavor is important, so if you use sugar, consider adding apple 
flavor concentrate, avail in wine-making shops and many homebrew shops)
* 2 tsp pectic enzyme (keeps lumps from forming, probably optional)
* 2 tsp liquid tannin (I substituted dry tannin and it was fine, could 
also use _strong_ cold tea)
* 1.5 campden tablets

mix above, wait one day for campden to gas off, then pitch:

* 1 0r 2 packets Champagne yeast (for dry cider) or ale yeast (for 
less-dry, which I prefer)
* 1 or 2 packets yeast nutrient

ferment to completion (rack when sediment gets too heavy)
then rack to carboy, bulk age 1 month
bottle with 0.75 cups corn or brown sugar (try 1 liter PET bottles)

OG 1.060
FG 0.997-0.960

For best results, use the second set of ingreds. to make a starter mixture 
with 0.5 cups sugar in 1 cup boiled water on the first day and pitch the 
lot the second day.

For most predictable (sp?) sweet cider results, use champagne yeast.  When 
complete and aged, add sulphite to kill the yeast, add 10+ oz Wine 
Conditioner for sweetnes (to taste), filter, and sparkle with CO2.  (too 
much work for me)
 
With champagne yeast this goes to completion rather fast (<1 week).  Note 
that with ale yeast you're fermenting close to the yeast's alc tolerance 
(this finishes at quite low FG), so fermentation may go on slowly for 
quite some time (2+ weeks).

Unlike beer, this gets _much_ better over time (it's apple wine, I guess).  
My 2-year-old first batch is really great now, even though it tasted sort 
of yeast-y at first.  I'd wait at least a month before drinking, though 
you may want to open a few early for the holidays.  

Best of luck!

- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Eric Schweikert                                          eds at his.com
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
TIMM (1.0 Beta 5a) Macintosh qwk reader

 

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Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 15:03:04 -0800 (PST)
From: Segolene Badelon <psu02502 at odin.cc.pdx.edu>
Subject: Re:Seattle beer, Comments

Reading my homebrew messages, I was chocked !!!!!But I stayed calm, 
thanks to the delicious Pale ale, I was enjoying!!!

In a list of Seattle beers, I found Deschutes which is an Oregon 
microbrewery. I am glad to tell you that there is a great difference. I 
live in Portland, Oregon. It is the world capital of microbreweries.

Enjoy the pleasure of really good, self satisfactoring homebeers!!!

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Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 15:59:00 GMT
From: al.vaughn at castles.com (Al Vaughn)
Subject: Beer Party


Stan White requested input on ideas for a beer tasting party.  Several 
years ago I hosted a beer tasting party (this one happened to be during 
the summer in Yosemite but anyway) and the requirements were for 
everyone to bring a six pack of assorted imports.  You could do 
something along the same thread and make it micro-brews, imports or 
selective styles.  Once all the beers were assembled (and beer tasters) 
we tasted each of the different types.  As each type was tasted, it was 
rated against others in the same classification and the empty bottle(s) 
placed in the appropriate order in front or behind the others in the 
same classification.  This went on for most of the day and we got some 
pretty suprising results.

The only problem we had was that some fool couldn't read the bottle 
label correctly or misunderstood import for export and brought a whole 
six pack of Heilman's special export.  He was banished to the nearest 
tree to drink by himself.

I'm sure you could make your own variations of this theme.  However, by 
having each person bring their own selections, it gave us a good cross-
section of beer types and styles.  Enjoy!

Al.Vaughn at Casltes.com
- ---
* CMPQwk #1.4* UNREGISTERED EVALUATION COPY

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Date: Wed, 23 Nov 94 21:41:14 
From: ding.dong at esbbs.com
Subject: KEG HOMEBREW IN BOTTLES


  This is in response to a question asked by Dave Setser, regarding 
his keg system and putting beer in bottles. 

  I use a keg setup with a couple of cornelius kegs and an old refrigerator, 
along with a 20lb co2 tank. This may sound overly simplified, but all I do is
get a bottle of seltzer water at the grocery store, the cheapest kind I can
find (under a dollar for a 2 liter jug), pour out the water and fill it with
beer. It helps to lower the pressure from the CO2 tank to avoid foaming, it
might help to chill the empty bottle before filling too, if the foam is still a
problem. I am basically lazy, so I don't even bother rinsing the bottle, I
mean, what did it have in it? Water, right? You can rinse it if you want, this
keeps the beer pretty well for a few hours, which is all I need.

  A question to the group. There was much discussion regarding coriander
in beer. My question to anyone who might have used it, will it really improve
the "maltiness" of a brew?  TIA.
          
  Fran Flynn  fflynn at delphi.com  or frank02 at aol.com  or  ding.dong at esbbs.com
or.........


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Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 19:43:59 -0500 (EST)
From: "nancy e. renner" <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Minimal blowoff, old Cincinnati beers

(From *Jeff* Renner)
Al says:
> I have *tried* (on some batches) to fill my fermenters to such a level that
>there is *a little* blowoff (as someone else (sorry) mentioned they do),

C'est moi!

>but since I use about eight different yeasts (and plan to try a few more) and
>since my fermentation room temperature varies 10 degrees over the course of
>the brewing season and since the gravity of the wort (which has a lot to do
>with both the vigor of the ferment) varies quite a bit from batch-to-batch.
>I've been unsuccessful in getting the fill level "right" 90% of the time.

The way I accomplish at least better than 10% success (with a similar 
number of variables) is to underfill my fermenter slightly, then at high 
kraeusen, add either some leftover (canned) wort or cooled, boiled water, 
just enough to get blowoff.  It is at this point that I switch from an air 
lock to a blowoff tube.  I once had enough negative pressure in my 
fermenter (additional O2 absorbtion or cooling) to pull a little chlorine 
water into the beer.  Believe me, once is enough!  I fermented it out, 
but the chloro-phenolic flavor ruined the beer.

***

Thanks to those who have responded to my request on old Cincinnati 
beers.  While I think that most of my memory is just due to my youthful 
palate 40 years ago, I do have some ideas.  One is DMS that may play a 
part.  While I was in Cincinnati this weekend, I bought a 6-pack of 
Hudepohl.  First taste of it in 30 years.  Sure enough, DMS.  Not 
overwhelmingly, but there.  Also there was real hop bitterness - I would 
guess in the upper teens IBUs, and some aroma hops as well.  Pretty good 
for $2.99/6-pack.  I will report on further progress.

Jeff in Ann Arbor c/o nerenner at umich.edu

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Date: Mon, 28 Nov 94 02:54:00 UTC
From: va.gal at genie.geis.com
Subject: Odd tastes in cream ale...

   I recently brewed an extract based cream ale with 5 lbs. DME, 1 lb.
 rice extract syrup, some assorted hops, and Sierra Nevada Pale Ale yeast.
 After bottling and aging, I finally tried one. The beer had the right taste
 for a cream ale, but it had a funny aftertaste. Kind of, well, ricey??
 It's an unusual taste that I simply cannot place. I believe my sanitation
 techniques are fine, since 30+ batches have not been a problem. This is the
 first time that I've used rice syrup extract though. Does anyway know if
 this taste is due to the rice syrup? And will it eventually subside? For
reference, it has only been 14 days since I bottled. Any/all help would
 be much appreciated.
   TIA.
     Duke Nukem

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Date: Sun, 27 Nov 94 19:31:28 PST
From: Lee Bollard <bollard at spk.hp.com>
Subject: CBF foaming

I just tried a counterpressure bottle filler for the first time, and had
foaming problems.  I couldn't get the bottles more than 3/4 full, and
foam began the minute beer flowed into the bottle.

I chilled both the bottles and the CBF in the fridge with the keg.
What's the trick to make this gizmo work?

Regards,

Lee Bollard
bollard at spk.hp.com


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Date: Sun, 27 Nov 94 22:35:11 EST
From: dweller at GVSU.EDU (RONALD DWELLE)
Subject: Homebrew Digest #1589 (November 26, 1994)

          Regarding hop plants, I have heard that the new shoots are
          not only edible but very tasty. My understanding is that you
          trim away the new shoots except for a couple of the most
          vigorous. And then you eat what you've trimmed away.

          Anybody have experience with this? Is it true? Harvesting
          secrets? (My first crop will be re-borning next spring,
          hopefully.)

          Cheers,
          Ron Dwelle (dweller at gvsu.edu)

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Date: Sun, 27 Nov 1994 22:51:12 -0500 (EST)
From: BOWEMEISTER at delphi.com
Subject: Over-aeration

I am one of those people who, for some reason, thinks that if a 
little bit something is good, then a whole lot of that something 
*must* be great!!! 
 
My latest escapade has been in aeration.  I bought a cheap 
aquarium air pump at Walmart for about $4 to help ensure adequate 
aeration of the cooled wort.  As usual, I carried aeration to the 
extreme.
 
Listed below is a description of the events, and observations of 
what is happening, for the enlightenment of those lucky few who 
don't have to learn everything the hard way:
 
Last night I brewed a simple ale (6 lbs extract, 2 oz hops, 1 lb 
specialty grain, 1/2 tsp yeast nutrient, plus Wyeast American Ale 
grown up to about a 1 pint starter).  I did a full volume boil in 
a 6 gallon kettle and ended up with about 4 gallons of cooled wort, 
which I siphoned to a 7 gallon carboy, and then pitched the yeast.  
**Note the 3 gallon headspace.
 
I read somewhere (Miller ??) that you simply can't over aerate the
wort during the first 12 hours after the yeast if pitched.  So, I 
let the air pump run through the night while I slept.
 
I think my plan was to stop the aeration, let the trub settle for 
6-hours or so, rack off the trub into 5 gallon carboy, add another 
gallon of water, and let it ferment.
 
Well....so much for plans!  There is no way that the trub is going 
to settle because I am now witnessing the must vigorous fermentation 
that I have ever seen!  I actually had to attach a blowoff tube even 
though I have 3 gallons of headspace.  
 
I estimate that the foam is traveling through the 1-inch diameter 
blowoff tube at a velocity of about 1-2 inch/second.  It's bubbling 
to fast to count, but I would estimate between 4-10 bubbles/second, 
with an occasional jump to maybe 20+ bubbles/second!  Although there 
are no actual waves at the liquid/kraeusen interface, the bubbles 
swirling around in the liquid look like a whirlpool.
 
Now, for the amazing part:  I have a fermometer attached to the 
carboy.  I also have a temperature controlled refrigerator.  When I 
put the vigorously fermenting mess in the refrigerator, the 
fermometer read 76-78 F.  The thermostat on the refrigerator is set 
for 68 F.  The refrigerator has been running almost continuously, 
and the temperature on the side of the carboy is off the 
scale...meaning that it's over 80 F.  This stuff is actually getting 
warmer sitting in a refrigerator!
 
With the combination of very high fermentation temp and tons of trub 
in the wort, I imagine that the brew will have enough fusel alcohol 
to make a good paint thinner.  So, the moral of this story is, be 
careful if you get ambitious with aeration -- it *is* possible to 
over-aerate your wort!!!
 
Brew-on!
 
bowemeister at delphi.com
Bowe Wingerd
- ------------
BTW, maybe we should have a blowoff FAQ <G>.  The pros and cons of 
blowoff is one of the most debated subjects ever on HBD.  Personally, 
I like having a small amount of blowoff.  Also, having a blowoff tube 
in inventory should be in the "highly recommended" list of items for 
beginners because if you have a really vigorous fermentation and no 
blowoff tube... :-(  bummer!
- ------------
Ohhh, ok, one last thing...I hereby release this note to the public 
at large.  Feel free to copy it, sell it, or whatever.  I am posting
this note for the benefit of others.  The more people who read it, and
benefit from it, the better, IMHO.  We who have Internet access are
lucky to be able to benefit from this forum...but, why should we try
to exclude the vast majority of brewers who don't have Internet?  If
someone wants to print and sell these notes, and they start to make a 
lot of money, then free enterprise will kick in and others will try to
take a piece of the pie, thereby reducing profits.  Nobody is going to
get rich by doing this...and a whole lot of non-Internet brewers will
be able to reap the benefits of our collective wisdom.  Let's lighten
up and focus on the purpose of the HBD....'nuff said.
 


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1590, 11/28/94