FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  O2 saturation, foaming, etc. (Maribeth_Raines)
  kids & beer ... (John DeCarlo              )
  Flavor Wheels (michael j dix)
  FERMENTAP (MR PETER E MISIASZEK)
  Yeast for Krausen? (RWaterfall)
  Lindeman Kriek Lambic ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  Sparrow Hawk Porter Ques... (Mario Robaina)
  Cranberry Query (RHELGESON)
  N-eating yeast? ("Mark A. Melton")
  1995 Bay Area Brewoff (Bob Jones)
  Doctoring/Brettanomyces and fruitiness/Flavour wheel (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Kentucky Common (Lowell Hart)
  Starter Comments for "The Outlaw" (Andrew Patrick)
  Lumpy DME / Oatmeal Stout ingredients / Chlorine (Kurt Wurm)
  Carbonation sugar not mixing well (Eugene Sonn)
  Aeration Revisited (Diane S. Put)
  Gravel Grinding (Jack Schmidling)
  Labelling (uswlsrap)
  Clear Beer/Sabco Brew Kettles/Keg Conversion FAQ/Unix Brewing Software (Teddy Winstead)
  Making Cider (MYETTE)
  Newbie question ("pratte")
  Info on Beer in Belgium needed (Eran Navoth)
  Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils (Don Rudolph)
  reducing yeast layer in bottles (cetnier)
  Kitchen Aid Grain Mill (BRETTNKAY)
  non-alcohol beer (the unmentionable?) (Don Ulin)
  Hello-thanks / All grain question / Beer Party Suggestion ("Software Happens.")
  Brew Pots (Dennis Forester)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 2 Dec 94 11:33:55 PST
From: raines at radonc.ucla.edu (Maribeth_Raines)
Subject: O2 saturation, foaming, etc.

Jeremy writes that the saturation level of wort which I said was 8 ppm 
"is only for adding oxygen with air.  The levels can be made much 
higher with pure O2 gas, which is used by many commercial breweries."  

This was part of a debate a few months back.  George presented very 
convincing data showing that the SATURATION LEVEL is 8 ppm.  
Saturation is saturation no matter what concentration of oxygen you're 
putting in.  The only difference is that rate at which the saturation 
level is reached.  And of course you would expect saturation to occur 
much faster with pure oxygen rather that with air.  Also George's 
experiments were done with injected oxygen not air. 

I was wondering how long it would take before Bob posted regarding the 
foaming issue.  This is a problem with all aeration systems, unless 
you do what Bob did and devise an in line system.  My experience has 
been that with extract beers I tend to get minimal foaming even in a 
big bodied extract.  I have yet to have a batch foam over.  BTW I use 
a 6.5 gallon plastic bucket for my primary.(Yes PLASTIC but that's 
another story) so I have a fair amount of head space.  My all grain 
beers foam all over the place.  There are a few things that help.  
First I run a splitter off of my aerator so that I aerate 2-3 
fermenters at once this in essence reduces the pressure.  You can also 
restrict the line by putting a clamp on it.  Finally I have beer 
working on identifying some food grade antifoaming agents to 
counteract this problem.  This would be especially helpful for 
aerating starters.  If anyone has a line on such chemicals let me 
know.  

The porosity of the carbonating stone also affects foaming.  It turns 
out that the porosity needed for an aquarium pump is pretty high so 
the bubbles formed are large and tend to foam as much as dissolve.  An 
aquarium pump will not push air through the optimal size porosity for 
dissolving gasses in liquid (2 microns).  Those of you who use pure 
oxygen or bottled air (alot of breweries use bottled air for safety 
reasons) could use a smaller porosity carbonating stone which would 
also help.  Where to get them is a different story.  E-mail me.  If 
there is enough interest I will arrange for some to be made. 

Oh yes, with regard to protein denaturation.  I have no idea why 
they're denaturing but my guess renaturation would be minimal.  The 
fried egg example is a good one.

Cheers!

Maribeth Raines
raines at radonc.ucla.edu

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Date: Fri, 2 Dec 94 14:50:33 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at homebrew.mitre.org>
Subject: kids & beer ...

Chris Lyons <Chris.Lyons at analog.com> writes:

>>As far as drinking it, ive found that kids dont like beer till much later
>>in life, the 5 year old cant stand the smell of beer.  The 2 year old
>>asks for Beers all the time, but once he smells it says "Icky" and wont
>>touch it.  Id be more worried about a mess than toddlers tee todleing on
>>their own.

>My experience is completely opposite.  I find that kids (even two
>year olds) enjoy the taste of beer.

OK, I can't help but chime in.

My daughter (now 4.5) has *never* liked coffee, beer, or soda.  I have given 
her tastes of everything and she has no desire for it.  My sone (now 2.5) has 
*always* liked coffee, beer, and soda.  He wants to drink as much of it as I 
will let him (I generally allow him small sips of such things, though he 
doesn't need caffeine or alcohol in his small body).

So, you can't generalize these things, as there are variations.  And they can 
change over time.  I can't trust my son unguarded--he will grab the can or 
bottle or glass and drink as much as he can.  I would definitely consider this
in any design.

John DeCarlo, MITRE Corporation, McLean, VA--My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at mitre.org


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Date: Fri, 2 Dec 94 11:55:47 "PST
From: michael j dix <mdix at dcssc.sj.hp.com>
Subject: Flavor Wheels

I ran across the beer flavor wheel a dozen years ago, and I now have two
wine flavor wheels as well.  It's a little hard for me to explain how it
works but...  Basically it is a scheme for standardizing and
categorizing the descriptive words people use when they taste something.
This technique makes tasting objective instead of subjective,
and can be used for data analysis.

Once people are trained on the flavor wheel, they have a common
language.  For example, weiss beer is described as being clovey.  I
might call it something different.  The flavor wheel provides a
reference point.  Moreover, clovyness falls under the the general
category of phenolic tastes , which is under chemical tastes, etc.  (if
I remember the details right.)

Similarly with wine.  I tasted one white wine and said "new tire."  My
neighbor said "burnt match."  We were detecting the same thing: sulfury taste.

The wheel is also used for comparison tastings:  A is more malty, hoppy,
grapefruity than B, but less flowery than C, etc.  (These are probably
not the correct words.)  So by ranking various constituents, you can
provide a road map of the beer.  This is probably a good starting point
for developing clone beers, because you need to describe your target
before you can try to hit it.

Mike Dix (mdix at dcssc.sj.hp.com)

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Date: Fri, 02 Dec 1994 14:51:24 EST
From: WNXP21A at prodigy.com (MR PETER E MISIASZEK)
Subject: FERMENTAP

I purchased two Fermentaps about a month ago and have put them through
their paces.  I have to say, I like them alot.  What the Fermentap consists
of is a rack to hold an inverted carboy, and a cap assembly that
accomodates a vent tube and a spigot.  The end result is a good
approximation of a cylindroconical fermenter.  The spigot allows yeast
harvesting as well as draw-off of spent hops and break.  By connecting two
in series, CO2 from the primary can be vented into the secondary to purge
it, and the beer can be racked to the secondary "closed-system" without
siphoning.  The parts seem to be top quality, and the service has been
good.  There is a special price if you buy two, and if your primary is a
carboy, I'd recommend two based on my experience.  I'm not affiliated in
any way with Fermentap.

Pete Misiaszek, brewing BayBeer in Newport RI.


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Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 15:18:59 -0500
From: RWaterfall at aol.com
Subject: Yeast for Krausen?

I'm going to mash a doppelbock this weekend (OK, I'm planning on cheating
with a little DME). This is my first strong lager. I plan to save 1 qt of
wort for krausen priming. I'm using Wyeast Munich Yeast in the ferment.
Should I use a different yeast to start the krausen or should I harvest from
the primary and save it somehow?
Any advice on this or decoction mashing would be very welcome via email to
RWaterfall at aol.com. BTW after reading aeration thread here, I plan to aerate
with old aquarium pump and a cotton plug. I'll work on getting fine filtration
 for later use.
                      TIA,
                      Bob Waterfall

PS. I plan on attending the "Beast from the East" competition advertised in
YankeeBN. Will some of you folks be visiting us here in lovely,scenic Troy,
NY?

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Date: Fri, 02 Dec 1994 16:56:04 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: Lindeman Kriek Lambic

Hello fellow brewers,

Warning:  this may be more appropriately posted in rec.food.drinks.beer or 
something, but I don't have usenet access, so sue me.

I recently had my first opportunity to taste an "authentic" Belgian Kriek 
Lambic.  It's made by a company called Lindeman's and comes in a miniature 
green champagne bottle with both a cap AND a cork.  It was intensely 
red/cherry colored with a very effervescent pink head.  I expected a rather 
sour flavor, as I have been indoctrinated by Papazian that Lambics are very 
sour.  Instead, the aroma was very reminiscient of cough syrup and the flavor 
was VERY sweet---in fact, not sour at all.  I must say the style barely 
resembled a beer, i.e. it had virtually no beer "character" and was more like 
a cherry beer/champagne.  It was certainly drinkable, but just not what I was 
expecting based on what I've read.  My question to the more seasoned 
imbibers:  Is this typical of the style or did I just purchase an expensive 
dud?  Thanks for your patience.  BREW ON!

Bones
- -----------------------
tim laatsch
laatsch at kbs.msu.edu
k'zoo, mi

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Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 14:50:25 -0800 (PST)
From: sprmario at netcom.com (Mario Robaina)
Subject: Sparrow Hawk Porter Ques...

Newsgroups: rec.crafts.brewing
Subject: Sparrow Hawk Porter Question..
Summary: 
Expires: 
Sender: 
Followup-To: 
Distribution: world
Organization: Netcom Online Communications Services (408-241-9760 login: guest)
Keywords: 

Just now brewing my second ever brew -- a Sparrow Hawk Porter from 
NCJHB.  It fermented like crazy for the first three days or so and then 
tapered off significantly.  Yesterday (day 5) I racked to a glass 
secondary and the SG read 1.030.  In the book, Charlie says to shoot for 
1.012-1.020, and since I haven't seen any activity since racking, I'm 
wondering if 1.030 is as low as I can expect it to go.

As per the instructions, I'm using a lager yeast (dry European lager 
yeast, can't remember the name) at ale temps in the style of Anchor 
Porter.  OG was 1.058 (adjusted for temp).  

When should I be worried about stuck fermentation and think about 
repitching?  Is this likely to start bubbling a little again soon?

Love to hear from anyone who has tried this beer or style.  Thanks in 
advance for the help.

 -John
(through Mario at sprmario at netcom.com)

BTW, tasted during the racking and it was spectacular!  Would recommend 
this recipe for any porter fans who haven't tried it yet..


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Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 18:14:46 -0600 (CST)
From: RHELGESON at MADMAX.MPR.ORG
Subject: Cranberry Query


We're extract brewers looking for a good cranberry ale recipe. Any help
out there? Mail to RHelgeson at MPR.org

Thanks!



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Date: 02 Dec 94 12:48:21 EST
From: "Mark A. Melton" <75452.277 at compuserve.com>
Subject: N-eating yeast?

If it is desirable to have some nitrogenous matter in the fermenting wort, does
anyone know if yeasts have the ability to fix gaseous nitrogen? I have nitrogen
bottle that I use to prevent oxidation of developing solutions in my darkroom
(also in unfinished wines) and wonder if putting a layer of N2 over the
fermenting wort at some stage would promote N-fixation?
Mark A. Melton 


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Date: Fri, 02 Dec 1994 19:06:10 +0800
From: bjones at bdt.com (Bob Jones)
Subject: 1995 Bay Area Brewoff

The annual Bay Area Brewoff is scheduled for January, 1995. If you are
interested in entering this competition, please send me email and I will
send you the entry details. 

This competition is held in the San Francisco Bay Area. We do accept out of
state entries. The competition is moderate to large in size and has very
high quality judges. There are also lots of prizes.

Bob Jones
bjones at bdt.com



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Date: 2 Dec 94 20:12:00 GMT
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Doctoring/Brettanomyces and fruitiness/Flavour wheel

Jeff writes:
>Eamonn McKernan has watery beer (as I recall, a lager at ~1044) that he 
>wants to "doctor."

and:
>Next, what about that beer in your secondary.  I really wouldn't think it 
>would work too well to add a large amount of fermentables to it.

Why not?

No, really, why not?  You don't need to add more oxygen because there is
enough yeast and they have (hopefully) had their fill of oxygen from the
first "feeding."  I don't see any reason that you could not add a half
gallon of 1.100 wort made with some additional hops.  Just boil up some
wort with some hops in it, chill, don't aerate and add it to the fermenter.
If you can add fermentables like fruit in the secondary, then why not malt
extract?

**************
Jeremy writes:
>their number.  I did this earlier this year and it turned out great except 
>for a better than average mash yield resulting in an OG of 1.077!  Adding 
>some Brettanomyces smoothed out the esteriness.

Hmmm... odd.  There appears to be a lot of difference in Brettanomyces
yeasts, if indeed the Brett you added reduced fruitiness.  Two of the three
Brett yeasts (I'm pretty sure they are Bretts from their behavior -- I
do not have the time to test them otherwise) that I have been working with
produce lots of esters.  I'm not sure about the third one since I've only
tasted it in a fruit pLambik I made.  I'm very pleased with their ester
production (and so far, disappointed with their horseyness, etc.), but this
seems contrary to Jeremy's experience with the Brett he used.  Could it
have been something other than the Brett you added that smoothed-out the
esteriness, like age or oxygen?

************
Bob writes:
>What's the deal with the flavor wheel?

The flavour wheel is a circular chart of beer flavours originated by
someone in the American Society of Brewing Chemists (ASBC).  It's
printed on the plastic tasting "glasses" that are distributed by the
AHA.  It's handy, I suppose, if you taste a particular flavour in a
beer, but can't recall what to call it.  However, the wheel only
lists a small percentage of the flavours that you can perceive in a
beer (relative to the words Jackson or Protz use) so it's usefulness
may be rather limited.

Al.

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Date: Fri, 2 Dec 1994 23:21:50 -0800
From: Lowell Hart <lhart at CATI.CSUFresno.EDU>
Subject: Kentucky Common



>Date: Tue, 29 Nov 94 06:22:41 MDT
>From: exabyte!smtplink!guym at uunet.uu.net
>Subject: "Jack Daniel considers beer"

>
Posted some news about beers from Lynchburg (Or,really, Evansville: I
accidently read a later HBD first):
  
  
  >Jack Daniel is joining a move to revive turn-of-the-century beer production 
  >practices: slow brewing small batches from only 100% malted barley, hops, 
  >yeast, and water, all from the United States."
  
  
  >Lynchburg is still in a dry county, yes?
  
  --
  
>Guy McConnell \/ Exabyte Corp. /\ Huntersville, NC \/ guym at exabyte.com

Too bad thet're missing the boat: I've heard of an extinct 'Kentucky
Common' beer (like Anchor Steam beer being a California Common beer) and
it would seem to be truly a turn O' de century beer. Anybody know
anything about a Kentucky Common? Did it die out with Prohibition? Is it
something you drink whilst you wait for the corn mash to sour?

Lowell Hart
San Joaquin WortHogs
Raketenflugplatz, Fresno
lhart at cati.CSUFresno.edu
California State University, Fresno - home of NHC Western Regional 1995


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Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 02:45:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Andrew Patrick <andnator at mcs.com>
Subject: Starter Comments for "The Outlaw"

Steve (a.k.a. "The Outlaw"),

I like your attitude....  brewing beer in AL is STILL illegal.... hmmmm
I wonder if there's anything we can do to help you guys out down there??
Any ideas?  My BBS Network did help to legalize brewpubs in Texas 
recently....

Whenever _I_ refer to the amount of starter that is pitched, I am 
referring to a volume of ACTIVELY FERMENTING WORT, preferably at high 
kraesen (i.e. when it has the biggest head on it!).  This is obviously a 
much greater volume than the same amount of yeast dregs all by their 
lonesome...

I like to pitch at least 1 quart of actively fermenting wort at high 
kraesen per 5 gallon batch.  Now, I dont always have that luxury, and 
do not hesitate to just pitch a fully-swelled Wyeast pack when I have not 
had the time to make a proper starter.

Hope that helps.  Feel free to e-mail me with any further questions...

Andy Patrick (andnator at mcs.com)
Certified Beer Judge;  Brewing Instructor-College of DuPage County,IL
Founder, HomeBrew U BBS Network:
Chicago 708-705-7263, Houston 713-923-6418, Milwaukee 414-238-9074

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Date: Fri,  2 Dec 1994 19:41:15 GMT
From: kurt.wurm at cadastral.com (Kurt Wurm)
Subject: Lumpy DME / Oatmeal Stout ingredients / Chlorine


Greetings friends!  This is my first post and as others have clearly
stated, the HBD is a wonderful resource -- and so are the neat pages
on the web (just got mosaic running -- graphics! cool!)  Cats Meow 3
has a great look and of course is full of recipes - Kudos to all of
those involved.  That said, now....beer talk
- --------------------
In HBD 1594 Kevin asked about how to avoid the carmel clumping of
DME in hot water.   Try dissolving the DME cold water -- then raise
the temperature.  (BTW this works with cornstarch or flour in gravys
and sauces too)
- --------------------
I'm going to make an oatmeal stout with a recipe from CM3 which calls
for a few ingredients that are new to me, I'd like to ask for a bit of
advice:

1) recipe calls for 2/3 stick brewers licorice.  The stick I
bought is about 4 inches long, about 3/4" dia.  Do I really want to use
2/3 of this?  I've heard horror stories about some seriously bad
beers made with too much of this stuff.

2) recipe calls for "steel cut oats" - the local homebrew shop had
flaked oats, not cut. I did find the right oats at a health food shop
for a mere $ 0.77 / lb. This stuff looks like couscous...is it?
- ---------------------
Lastly, Charlie P.'s Homebrewers Companion talks of a new federal
regulation which changed the way municipalities chlorinate drinking
water - he simply recommends filtering water as the chlorine will no
longer dissipate by simply filling a carboy and allowing it to sit out.
Can anyone expan on this?

I had noticed a strange off taste in about 3 batches, which got stronger
after about 3 weeks in the keg, eventually ruining the batch.  This
taste had the "bandaid" like flavour, I believe Chlorophenol (sp)?
Since installing a simple countertop filter, this taste is gone!  (I
also  switched to idophor but I don't think poorly rinsed bleach was the
problem)

Cheers
         -=pkbwp=-
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
Kurt B. Wurm, P.L.S.                      Internet: kbw at cadastral.com
Land Surveying, Geodesy, GPS, GIS
Billings, Montana, USA
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 12:57:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Eugene Sonn <eugene at sccs.swarthmore.edu>
Subject: Carbonation sugar not mixing well

Season's Greeting to the HBD,
	Last night I cracked open a bottle of a honey porter I and my 
brew buddy made about a month and a half ago.  One bottle was not as well 
carbonated as the others and it got me thinking whether our proceedure of 
mixing in the boiled corn sugar could be improved.  Currently we just 
dump the boiled sugar into a 7 gallon food grade plastic bucket and 
siphon the uncarbonated beer into the bucket.  After, we siphon the beer 
into bottles etc.  Has anyone come up with a better way to ensure the 
carbonation sugar gets spread throughout the beer?  I'm looking into the 
5liter mini-kegs for the future, but I would still like to be able to 
bottle my beer and make sure it's just as carbonated as the rest of the 
batch.

Thanks in advance,

Eugene			eugene at sccs.swarthmore.edu

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Date: Sat, 3 Dec 94 10:15:03 PST
From: diput at eis.calstate.edu (Diane S. Put)
Subject: Aeration Revisited

>From *Don* Put:

Al wrote:
>>8 ppm is the maximum amount of O2 that can be dissolved in cooled wort
>>when using *air*.  When using oxygen, you can dissolve quite a bit more
>>than that and, I if I recall correctly, excessive amounts of dissolved
>>oxygen ( >30ppm comes to mind, but I cannot find the reference) can even
>>be detremental to yeast.  

According to recent tests by George Fix (his original post@tached), 
there is "no way" that levels of O2 detrimental to yeast can be obtained
no matter how much O2 is injected/bubbled into the wort.  Actually, when
you look at his chart, the highest saturation he obtained is 8.1 in a 
somewhat low gravity wort (these were the saturation limit using "lengthy"
O2 feeds").  There has been a lot of discussion about this recently, so I 
hope Dr. Fix doesn't mind me reposting this.  Also, if there has been some 
new data added to this (like at the Denver meeting), I would be interested 
in hearing it.  

>From HBD 1446:

>Date: Thu, 9 Jun 94 09:37:32 -0500
>From: gjfix at utamat.uta.edu (George J Fix)
>Subject: Wort Aeration

>I am currently working on a new book (Principles of Brewing Science II.
>Practical Considerations) which I hope to get to the publisher by December.
>Wort aeration is one subject that I wanted to treat in detail. Since this
>is something that has recently been discussed in this forum, I felt some of
>our preliminary results may be of interest.

>I separated this project into two parts, namely static and dynamic tests. 
>The former are complete, and the objective of the static measurements was to 
>record the maximum amount of O2 that could be dissolved as a function of
>temperature and gravity. Lengthy O2 feeds were used to make sure the 
>saturation limit was achieved. We are currently doing the dynamic tests, 
>where O2 levels are recorded as a function of time at various feed rates.

>All tests were done with a Zahm and Nagel tank with a .2 micron diffusing 
>stone attached to the gas line. I am going to present a number of slides 
>in my talk at the AHA conference in Denver, and one of them will show this 
>particular setup.

>In the static tests the saturation limit decreased with increasing 
>temperature.  This was expected, and indeed this effect can be deduced from 
>theoretical considerations. A second effect that is not as well known is 
>that the saturation limit also decreases with wort gravity. We reran each 
>of the cases at least twice to check on the reproducibility of the numbers, 
>and so I am confident that the measurements are accurate. If this is the 
>case, then saturation values for water are not a reliable guide for what 
>actually occurs for real beer wort.

>I will present this data in graphical form in my book, but here (due a lack
>of graphics) a few numerical examples will have to suffice.


       12.5 C                  15 C                20C
    
    DO        SG             DO     SG           DO     SG
   -----    -------         ----   -------      -----  -------
   8.1      1.030           7.5    1.030         6.5    1.030
   7.7      1.040           7.1    1.040         6.2    1.040
   6.9      1.060           6.3    1.060         5.6    1.060
   5.7      1.080           5.5    1.080         5.0    1.080

>In the above DO stands for dissolved O2 levels in mg/l, while SG stands
>for wort gravity.

>Dissolved O2 can be hazardous to yeast once DO levels approaches the high
>teens (in mg/l). Our results indicate that there is no way such levels
>can be reached with beer wort no matter how much O2 is injected.

>George Fix 

Thanks again, George, for providing us with some real data.  Any data
available from the dynamic tests?  Or, will we have to wait for the 
book?  :-)

don
(diput at eis.calstate.edu)

- ----------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Sat, 3 Dec 94 12:25 CST
From: arf at genesis.mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Gravel Grinding

 
 From: gwk at world.std.com (Greg Kushmerek)
 
 >They said that the Maltmill wasn't working very well for them.  The
 words 'slow' and 'unreliable' came up and they found the new stainless
 steel Glatt Mill to be superior in production and quality.
 
 Not sure this is even worth responding to as it is ludicrous at face value.  
 The Glatt has about 1/4 the throughput of the MM and a notorious history for 
 catastrophic failure.  Furthermore, to call something with a stainless steel 
 hopper, "stainless" is less than totally honest.
 
 Finally, I find it interesting that most of the public responses to my 
 posting completely missed the point and attack me while all the private mail 
 was very supportive of my position.   The posting was about a dishonest or at 
 least mis-guided method of testing the integrity and ruggedness of a roller 
 mill.  I only brought up the plastic gear failure as proof of the pudding.  
 The fact that Glatt finally listened to the screams of their irate customers 
 is only an incidental detail.  More importantly, the catastrophic failures in 
 the Glatt have been the result of bad design and ignoring the problem for 
 over a year says more about the companies concerned than one unhappy MM 
 customer.  Can't help but wonder how long he is going to insist that plastic 
 bearings are a good design.
 
 js
 

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Date: Sat, 03 Dec 1994 14:43:43 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Labelling                                                        

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino               Research Analyst
Subject: Labelling

Can you stand another suggestion on labelling your brews.

1) RE: Trash v. recycling.... I don't know what your municipality
collects for recycling, but I don't think they'd take caps...don't
forget the liner (and thelabel if you used one). Those would seem to
make them unacceptable for recycling.

2) RE: Batch numbers v. styles, labels v. marker. Now a batch number alone
could be easily legible with marker alone (as long as it's not a dark coloured
cap), but I use labels with both batch number and a style abbreviation--and
colour coded labels for quick identification. My batch numbers incorporate the
year and a sequential number, with an abbreviation for the style. For example,
94-15 with IPA under it could be the 15th batch of 1994 (for reference to the
log) and it's an IPA (for quick identification of the style). Furthermore, the
coloured cap label makes it easy to keep them sorted into six packs and/or
cases as the supplies dwindle and I consolidate cases to save space. Including
both pieces of information tells me more than just it's an IPA, but it tells me
_which_ IPA.


Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Sat, 3 Dec 1994 18:19:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Teddy Winstead <winstead at cs.tulane.edu>
Subject: Clear Beer/Sabco Brew Kettles/Keg Conversion FAQ/Unix Brewing Software

First of all, I purchased a Sabco Brew kettle from The Home Brewery this
summer, and while I'm fairly happy with the product, I'm not 100% 
satisfied yet.  A brief review -- the product is a reconditioned
half-barrel keg with a coupling for draining, and coupling for a
thermometer, and supports for the false bottom welded into it.  It
comes with a stainless steel lid.  The false bottom is just a piece of
stainless steel window screen with a rubber "frame" encircling it.
This frame allows the false bottom to butt right up to the wall of the
keg and make a snug fit.... Or so I thought.  The first time I brewed
with it (a "Porter Light" -- recipe of my own creation), I has TONS of
problems clarifying my wort by recirculating it.  No matter how much I
recirculated, I still had pretty substantially sized chunks of grain
and husk in my wort!  So I called the Home Brewery, and they told me
that a number of incorrectly-sized false bottoms had been shipped.
They promptly got me a new one, but this beer was really astringent
from all of that grain going into the boiler.

My next brew, a Bock (recipe from Richman's excellent book) had some
clarifying problems as well.  I recirculated until I was ready to
drop, but I still had some grains in the wort. This beer tastes fine,
but the wort never really got clear.

So, most recently, I made a batch of pale ale (95% Hugh Baird Pale
malt, 5% CaraMunich).  This was an experiment, and I put an 8" piece
of perforated SS sheet metal under the window-screen false bottom, and
under the uptake for the drain.  Here's a graphic --

        |              |
        |              |
        |              | 
        |              |
        |              |
        |              |
        |--------------<------------- False bottom of window screen
        |\            /|
        |  \   ------------ <------- Drain w/ elbow on inside
        |   ========   |
              ^--------------Bottom of keg w/ 8" SS False Bottom above

OK.  This wort had no grain chunks, but it still hasn't really gotten
quite clear.  But what happened was interesting -- I got TONS of
slimy, trub material on top of the second false bottom, along with
some grains.  This would indicate to me that LOTS of stuff isn't being
caught by the first (window screen) false bottom.  So, the product
obviously isn't working as it should.

The grain for all these batches was crushed in a MaltMill from my
local HB shop which is DIRECTLY motorized (i.e. there's a power drill
connected directly to the crank shaft for the rollers).

SO --  What's my trouble?  Could it be my HB shop's grain mill isn't
crushing the malt "right"?  Has anyone else out there used this
product and had substandard results?  I'm thinking that I'll give the
Home Brewery another call to find out what could be wrong.  I'd
appreciate someone giving me some feedback on this product.

- -----

On another note, what other factors influence getting really clear
beer after fermentation?  Water treatment?  If so, why?  Boil times?
Again, why?  I know that water treatment has some effect on finished
beer clarity, but I've never seen an explanation of exactly why.

- -----

The Half Barrel Keg Conversion FAQ has been finished.  I posted it to 
rec.crafts.brewing this weekend.  I'm trying to get it put on
sierra.stanford.edu.  I've included a disclaimer about my experiences
with the Sabco product.  It will always be available on WWW at
"http://www.cs.tulane.edu/www/Winstead/keg_conversion.faq".

- -----

My brewing software package for Unix is also finished (lacking some
bells and whistles, though).  I'm getting it put up for FTP on my
local site.  I'll post an announcement when I get it put up.  Initial
response was somewhat overwhelming...



- -- 
Nathaniel Scott "Teddy" Winstead      | http://www.cs.tulane.edu/www/Winstead
winstead at cs.tulane.edu (Preferred)    | HIRE ME -- I'm looking for a summer
winstead%brauerei.uucp at cs.tulane.edu  | job ANYWHERE! Check above URL for 
Fanatical Homebrewer & CS Student     | resume, or E-mail me, and I'll send it.

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Date: Sun, 04 Dec 1994 13:16:43 -0500 (EST)
From: MYETTE at delphi.com
Subject: Making Cider

Can someone please tell me where to find FTP access to back issues of "The
Cider Digest"? 

Ann
Myette at delphi.com

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Date:          Sun, 4 Dec 1994 16:29:15 EST
From: "pratte" <PRATTE at GG.csc.peachnet.edu>
Subject:       Newbie question

In yesterday's post, Patrick Humphrey asks (after being scared to 
death by discussion on the HBD) about possible HSA problems with his 
first batch.  He added 100 F wort to 80 F water and wonders whether 
he has ruined his beer.  I would have to say that if his beer is 
ruined, this is not the cause.  I usually only cool my wort to 
somewhere between 100 and 120 F before adding it to 50-60 F water and 
have yet to have a bad batch (spruce beer to the contrary).  He also 
asks about a high hydrometer reading (1.080 with only 7.6 lbs of 
malt).  Before making a final SG reading, I would calibrate my 
hydrometer.  To do this, take distilled water and cool it to 60 F.  
Whatever the reading is, you can use this as an approximate 
correction factor for readings in the future.  However, if it is off 
by the .020-.030 that you apparently have, I would return it for a 
new one.

Several months back, a couple of people wrote in to say what a 
disgusting experience with spruce beer they had.  Others told them to 
be patient and that after a year, the beer would taste great.  Well, 
mine has been in the bottle for 1 year 2 months now, and it is still 
disgusting (no, I didn't use too much.  I even used less than 
Papazian suggest in his book).  HOWEVER, I have found a great use for 
it.  I use it as a marinade for pork.  I especially like to add 1 
bottle to a pork roast with a couple of cloves of garlic and several 
fresh sprigs of rosemary (bake for 1-1.5 hours depending on size).  
The smell is incredible.

While I'm wasting BW, a note of local interest.  A new brewpub is 
opening in Hickory, NC.  Now, all spouses that get dragged there for 
furniture buys (for the furniture impaired, Hickory is a mecca for 
furniture with every other store in town being a furniture store of 
some sort) can go hang out in the brewpub and while away the day 
trying their beer.  They are still waiting to get get the official go 
ahead from the BATF (10 weeks), but they plan to have 5 different 
styles of beer on tap: a stout, a wheat, 2 ales, and 1 lager-style 
ale.  Until they get their license, you can still enjoy the food and 
the 48 premium beers (not Budmilloors) and 2 ciders that they have.  
The place is called the Olde Hickory Brewery, Jim Walker is the 
brewmaster, and it is located on Highway 70 in Hickory.


John









- --------------------------
Dr. John M. Pratte
Clayton State College
pratte at gg.csc.peachnet.edu
Office (404)961-3674
Fax (404)961-3700
- --------------------------

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Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 13:55:36 -0800
From: Eran Navoth <eran at well.sf.ca.us>
Subject: Info on Beer in Belgium needed

I'll be visiting Belgium next week for business. Can anyone suggest a couple
of breweries you think are worth visiting - and any microbreweries or
smaller sized establishmets that will let a wandering homebrewer in. Names
and adresses of fine pubs will be highly appreciated.
Please respond by private Email. Pointers to relevant homebrew digests or
faq files will be helpfull as well. Tips, names etc. all welcomed. Nir.

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Date: 04 Dec 94 18:32:24 EST
From: Don Rudolph <76076.612 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Wyeast 2278 Czech Pils



Joe McCarthy asks about Wyeast 2278 (Czech Pils) in HBD#1595.  I have
brewed three batches with this strain, two Bohemian Pilsners and one
Vienna.  The only comments worth making in comparing this to the other
Wyeast lager strains is that it does produce a LOT of sulfur during
fermentation.  It does condition out over time, and it is worth the
wait.  This yeast produces a wonderfully round and smooth maltiness
and I would recommend it for any malt-accented lager.

I've heard said that these sulfur-ish compounds, when at perception
thresholds, will accentuate malt aromas and flavors.  Is this why?

Don Rudolph
76076.612 at CompuServe.COM


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Date: Mon, 5 Dec 1994 02:39:04 GMT
From: cetnier at nn.apc.org
Subject: reducing yeast layer in bottles

In a few days I'm going to try an experiment to reduce the amount of
yeast I get in the bottom of my bottles. I'd like some comments, if
anybody has done it before.

Normally I use a food-grade covered plastic bucket with airlock for my
primary and rack the beer to a glass carboy after 4-7 days. When
fermentation has stopped, I siphon the brew back to the bucket, to get
it away from all that yeast sediment, add priming sugar, and bottle
from there. My siphon has a standard little cap on the sucking end, so I
leave almost all the yeast in the carboy, but a little gets stirred up in
the process.

I have noticed that the bottles have most of the yeast in the bottom
they are going to get by after a day or two. I interpret this to mean that
suspended yeast has settled out, not that the yeast has become so
active that it reproduced and created that much yeast.

This suggests the following experiment with the batch of Rocky
Racoon's Crystal Honey Lager (Papazian's recipe) that has recently
stopped fermenting and is sitting, crystal clear, in my brewery: Instead
of transferring it back to the bucket and bottling right away, I will
transfer it to another carboy, where it will be able to sit in peace a
few days. When the yeast I stirred up in the first transfer has settled, 
then I will siphon it to the bucket and bottle.

I see two possible risks here:  1) Too much O2. Adding a transfer
increases the possibilities for O2 to come into contact with the wort.
This problem is particularly acute with this batch. I did this
experiment earlier on this batch, when the bubbles seen in the carboy
were so few that I thought fermentation was almost over. The result of
the transfer was a renewed vigorous fermentation. (Good thing I didn't
prime and bottle it!) So this batch has already had one more racking
that I normally do. Thought I would add ascorbic acid this next time,
the first time I've used it.

2) All the yeast can settle out, leaving none left for the bottle
conditioning, and I have a sweet (from the priming sugar), flat beer. The
manager of one homebrewing shop in nearby Stockholm told me that
some of his customers say this has happened to them. I have a hard
time believing that. I don't think you can get rid of yeast that easily and
am betting that the carbonation will develop a little more slowly but
become just as strong as usual. 

My questions to anyone who has tried this are: a) Does this method work
to reduce yeast in the bottle? b) What do you say about the risks?

I hope this isn't anything that has come up recently on HBD; I'm just
subscribing now after going through a bunch of back issues from the
first half of the year.

TIA!
Carl Etnier

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Date: Sun, 04 Dec 1994 22:58:08 -0500 (EST)
From: BRETTNKAY at delphi.com
Subject: Kitchen Aid Grain Mill

I have in my kitchen already one of those Kitchen Aid mixers
which has this power take off shaft on the front to which you
can attach various tools like cheese shredder, etc.  Ive seen in 
a catalog a grain mill attachment which if adjustable enough would
make a very nice electric grain mill for around $100. Presumably
since these are not hot sellers, Ive never seen one in person at a 
store.

Has anyone used or even seen these mills and if so how suitable
are they for cracking grains. I would like to make the jump to all
grain but right now Im using my burr coffee grinder to grind 
specialty grains and its just not going to cut it for larger amounts.

Thanks,
Brett Hunt, The Lone (I think) Homebrewer in Sedalia, MO 

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Date: Sun, 4 Dec 1994 22:08:00 -0500
From: ulind at ucs.indiana.edu (Don Ulin)
Subject: non-alcohol beer (the unmentionable?)

    I hope this suggestion is not too heretical, but my pregnant wife has
    felt constrained as of late in her consumption of my beer and I
    wondered if anyone had any ideas for how to make a (palatable)
    non-alcoholic brew.  I'd be especially interested in hearing from
    anyone who has tried it, but theoretical suggestions would also be most
    welcome.  (I hope, too, that this is not an old thread since I am new
    to this particular discussion group.)

    Thanks in advance,

    Don Ulin
    Bloomington, Indiana

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Date: Sun, 04 Dec 1994 10:44:59 -0500 (EST)
From: "Software Happens." <johnm at giant.IntraNet.com>
Subject: Hello-thanks / All grain question / Beer Party Suggestion

I've been lurking here for what seems like forever.  I've read alot of the
homebrew books (Papazian, Miller, Burch, Eckhardt, Zymurgy) but have still 
received a wonderful education from the HBD. I thank you all. 

I've been brewing extracts for about three years and recently made the jump to 
all grain.  I found the exeprience to be fairly simple, highly rewarding, but a
tad time consuming.  I plan to start future all grain brews early in the
morning to minimize the time spent in the kitchen when I could be with the
kids! A few notes on my process.

I mashed on on the stove top with my five gallon stainless steel pot.  I
attempted to follow millers instruction by placing my pot into a 140 F oven
once I had reached the specified temperature. Unfortunately, the lowest my dial 
has is WARM, which frequent checking of the kettle revealed to be too high as
I was always overshooting my target temperature. For my next brew(a step 
infusioned porter from Papazian), I modified the process.  I set the oven on 
warm for five mionutes and then turned it off.  I brought my mash to the 
specified temperature on the burner and then placed the covered kettle in the 
oven.  I was almost right on for each temperature step, maybe a degree off 
here or there off but nothing like the 5 - 10 degrees experieinced on my first 
brew. I used the Phil's lauter system and found it quite easy to work with.

The one thing I forgot for the porter recipe was the half pound of black patent
malt. I just wnet ahead without it so basically I have a brown porter in my 
primary which I beleive is a little on the high side (SG 1.060) for the style. 

Could I steep or minmash the 1/2 lb of the missing ingredient in a quart or so 
of water and then add to the secondary  prior to racking?

Beer party suggestion: 

I've been throwing a party for my megaswilling friends for the past three 
years.  Each year I brew up 3 batches of beer for the party.  Usually I try to
keep the  styles in season, this summer I threw a barbecue with a hombrewed
WIT, a Honey lager, and German PILS.  I send out a humorous 
newsletter/invitations with a description and a little history of the 
beer styles.  In the invitation, I also request that individuals contribute to
the beer tasting by seeking out commercial examples of the  styles to bring 
to the party.  I also give extra credit (usually beer glasses or 22 oz. 
bottles of local microbrewed beers) as an incentive for anyone finding, say, 
an Australian Wheat beer or a Dusseldorf Altbier.  This little tactic helps
them get a little more beer education since they have to ask questions at the
liquor store (many of them bring the invitation with them).  It also helps   
replace my homebrew until I can brew again since theer are always some 
(not many) leftover microbrewed and imported beers.  The party has been a 
huge success and my friends are getting a little more educated about beer 
styles, brewing, and beer tasting every year. 



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Date:        Sun, 04 Dec 94 22:33:21 EST
From: Dennis Forester <X6OT at MUSIC.STLAWU.EDU>
Subject: Brew Pots


While thumbing through The Homebrews Companion I spotted the chapter
about brewing equipment and noticed the CP now says that using Aluminum
pots for making beer is fine. I always thaought that aluminum pots gave
a metalic taste to the beer, after all TNCJOHB says not to use them.
What does the collective knowledge of HBD have to say about this?

E-mail or public posts would be fine and I'll summarize if I recive many
replies.

TIA

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    'What fool would pour beer ON his head instead of IN his mouth?'

Dennis Forester                 Woody, "What'll it be Mr. Peterson?"
Semi-Pro Zymurgist              Norm, "A trough of beer & a snorkel."
X6OT at MUSIC.STLAWU.EDU
- ------------------------------------------------------------------------

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1597, 12/06/94