FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Primary fermentation using lager yeast (ecklund)
  Honey in beer.... how much? (uswlsrap)
  Ice bock (rnantel)
  Redhook ESB recipe (mlloyd)
  5 liter Mini Kegs (Nigel Townsend)
  NDN: Homebrew Digest #1629 (January 12, 1995) (Gateway)
  Sam Adams Winter Lager (Anthony Meehan)
  water chemistry help ? (Jon Petty)
  thanks for help (William Moulis)
  Mexicali Rogue (Robin Garr)
  2L PET bottles (Ed Hitchcock)
  Supply Store Info. (M_MACADAMS)
  Responses (Douglas R. Jones)
  Fermentap Inquiry (Schwab_Bryan)
  One problem with the spigot on the EasyMasher<tm>: (Philip DiFalco)
  RE: water chemistry (Jim Dipalma)
  Infusion question (Mark Evans)
  re:Champagne Bottles ("Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616")
  re: Oates ("Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616")
  Oatmeal Stout Recipe ("Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616")
  Warm temp Lagers / decoction mash ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  using licorice (Tim Lawson)
  beer fridge questions (Chris Lovelace)
  Kegging Lagers Question (Jeff Stampes)
  stuck fermentation (chc2)
  Information on homebrewing (ANTHONY  HARWARD)
  Bottle "crimes" (Bruce Beckwith)
  Honey in Brewing (John Landreman)
  Culturing wild yeast (Linscheid, SSgt James)
  Mega gingered holiday ale (Paul Baker)
  oxygen permeable plastic? (ANDY WALSH)
  foxmail (DONBREW)
  Mac brewing software (JimSomers)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 15:30:51 -0500
From: ecklund at tcpcs3.dnet.etn.com
Subject: Primary fermentation using lager yeast

Being a novice at the "homebrew game", I am about to cook up a recipe that will
be my first experience using lager yeast.  The particular concoction that I am
contemplating is Papazian's Rocky Racoon Honey Lager (TNCJOHB).  Although this
recipe simply states that the beer can be bottled once fermentation is complete,
I thought that an extended period of time at a reduced temperature in a 
secondary fermenter would be required to obtain the proper results.  In
addition,I believe that I read that using a liquid yeast as opposed to the dry
variety can yield substantial benefits especially in lagers.

The remaining portion of C.P.'s instructions seem pretty straight forward but
I would certainly appreciate any first hand input from anyone who has tried
this recipe or who might be able to shed some light on my dilemma.

Thanx in advance,
Bill from Kazoo



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Date: Wed, 11 Jan 1995 16:28:09 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: Honey in beer.... how much?                                      

- -------------------- Mail Item Text Follows ------------------

To: I1010141--IBMMAIL

From: Bob Paolino               Research Analyst
Subject: Honey in beer.... how much?

I've been an all-malt snob about my brewing. Other than corn sugar for priming,
a couple times with brown sugar in a cider or Imperial, and various fruit and
vegetable additions, I've been hesitant to use non-malt fermentables. Okay,
maybe not _quite_ a purist,and after all,those Belgians use sugar all the time.

Well, I'm going to use honey for the first time to boost a high-gravity brew,
one that would be damn big on the basis of its malt content alone, but want it
just that little bit bigger. I _thought_ I was going to brew last night (but
the yeast told me otherwise), and just got the supermarket variety honey (store
brand, "fancy Grade A") in a two pound jar. The alternative was something
labelled "mostly clover honey."  The store brand stuff was cheaper per pound
than even the five-pound jug and looked lighter in colour than the other stuff.

I don't want the honey to have an obvious effect on the flavour of this beer.
I'm not looking to make a "classic style _specialty_" beer, to use AHA style
terminology; I just want a boost in gravity and perhaps a subtle effect from
the honey.

Does two pounds in a 4-5 gallon batch sound about right?  Should I use more?
At what point would the honey begin to have a noticeable effect?  (It may well
be listed in a book in my library, but what's the approximate contribution to
gravity for a pound of honey?)  Is grocery store honey going to be okay in
this small amount?  In larger amounts?

Thanks for sharing your experience and expertise.

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace /uswlsrap at ibmmail.com

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Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 14:36:46 +0000
From: rnantel at ibm.net
Subject: Ice bock

It is -15F and rather than complain, I've decided to see the benefits
of this frigid cold wave instead of dreaming of warm, sandy beaches.
It would seem I have all the cold I need to attempt to brew an ice bock.
I'm hoping to get something as great as Niagara Falls Brewing's Ice Bock; 
Canada's finest beer. Here's the plan: 
1. Brew an all-grain Helles based on a recipe in Richman's Bock book 
- -- available only in paperbock ;)
2. When fermentation is complete after ? amount of time in glass secondary,
rack to a primary plastic bucket and place outside for ? amount of time.
3. Remove large chuncks of ice thereby substantially increasing strength.

Any ideas? Any comments?

//----------------------------------------------------------------------------
// Richard Nantel 
// Westmount, Quebec Canada 
// (rnantel at ibm.net)


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Date: Wed, 11 Jan 95 20:06:44 EST
From: mlloyd at cuix.pscu.com
Subject: Redhook ESB recipe


David Shea had a question about cloning Redhook ESB.  I am pleased to
offer my mash-extract recipe for a clone of Redhook ESB.  I call it
Trolleyman ESB and the figures for a 5 gallon batch are OG: 1.050 and
FG: 1.013 with a color of 12.1 SRM.

Trolleyman ESB

6.6 lbs Alexander light malt extract syrup
10 oz. 60 degree Lovibond crystal malt (crushed)
4 oz. malto-dextrin
32 IBU Willamette hop pellets (boil)
1.0 oz Tettnang hop pellets (finish)
1.0 oz. Tettnang hop pellets (dry hop)
1 tsp Irish moss
Wyeast # 1098 (British ale) liquid yeast
3/4 cup corn sugar for priming

Steep crystal malt in 4 gallons 160 degree water for 30 minutes and
strain out grains.  Bring water to boil and add malt extract syrup,
malto-dextrin and Willamette hops for a 60 minute boil.  Add Irish moss
for last 30 minutes of boil and add Tettnang hops for last two minutes
of boil.

Turn off heat and allow to steep for 30 minutes while chilling your
wort.  Transfer to primary, top off to 5 gallons and pitch yeast at 72
degrees.

Rack to secondary and add 1 oz. Tettnang hop pellets as dry hop. Add
appropriate clarifiers, add 3/4 cup corn sugar and bottle.


You will note that I use no water treatment.  During a Redhook brewery
tour, I was told that they use no water treatment.  Since I live near
Seattle and use the same water, I opted to not use gypsum.  Our water is
very soft, your water may of course vary.

I have refined this recipe over several batches.  It cannot be told from
Redhook ESB in a blind taste test.  The fresh Tettnang finish lasts
longest when oxygen absorbing caps are used on the bottles.

Michael G. Lloyd

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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 15:39:01 GMT
From: nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au (Nigel Townsend)
Subject:  5 liter Mini Kegs

Dan (DBURKE at smtpgate.tnrcc.texas.gov) asked 3 Jan about the effects of over
priming a keg.

I have done the same with a 40 litre plastic keg and all I did was to
release pressure the a valve on the top. As the hiss stopped whistling and
slowed down, I released the valve.  I did this daily until the pressure
increase slowed.  At this time the beer was drinkable (but very sweet) so I
released pressure by drinking the beer. The beer was very foamy at this
point.  2 pints of froth became 1 pint of beer in about 5 minutes. It
became less sweet with time (4-5 weeks).

Hope this is useful.

- --
Nigel Townsend
nigelt at delm.tas.gov.au
Tasmania, Auastralia



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Date: 12 Jan 1995 01:46:09 -0000
From: Gateway at foxmail.gfc.edu (Gateway)
Subject: NDN: Homebrew Digest #1629 (January 12, 1995)

Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:

Robert Hoover,George Fox College (The name was not found at the remote site.
Check that the name has been entered correctly.)


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 07:07 -0500 (EST)
From: anthony_meehan at Merck.Com (Anthony Meehan)
Subject: Sam Adams Winter Lager


A friend of mine asked me what I thought the difference was between Sam 
Adam's  Lager and Sam Adam's Winter Lager.  Unfortunately I have no idea. 
 Can anyone help me out on this one?

Tony Meehan
meehan at merck.com

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Date:     Thu, 12 Jan 95 8:04:07 EST
From: Jon Petty <jpetty at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  water chemistry help ?

     Since we have a thread on water chemistry going I'd like to solicit
     an opinion.  My typical pale ale mash has a PH of about 4.5.  The
     books say to add chalk (calcium carbonate) to adjust PH to 5.2.  I
     have to add gobs of this stuff to see any change because it doesn't
     readily dissolve in water.  Also I don't want all the carbonate in a
     pale ale.  I have used sodium bicarbonate and a teaspoon is enough to
     get me to 5.2, but again I don't want the carbonate or the sodium.
     Most pale ale recipes call for additions of CaSO4 but this would
     lower my PH further.  My choices seem to be; run the mash at 4.5 or
     add the bicarbonate or ?   

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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 07:26:54 +0100
From: wjmoulis at facstaff.wisc.edu (William Moulis)
Subject: thanks for help

Hello All,

I would like to thank all of the friendly people that replied to my request
for help in getting started.  I would have preferred to thank you
individually, but between Christmas and New years day, one of my children
accidentally reformatted the hard drive on my pc and I lost all my saved
email messages.  Again, thank you all.

Bill Moulis
                                   
                                    
                                      
                                       <<<<  
                                      [..]-
                                     (  U  )
 ________________________________oOOo_ \_/ _oOOo____________________________
{                                                                           } 
} William Moulis;  Electronics Technician | voice: (608) 265-2600           { 
{ University of Wisconsin                 | fax: (608) 265-0325            
}          
} Division of Information Technology      | wjmoulis at facstaff.wisc.edu      {
{ Audio Visual Installation & Repair                                        } 
} 1327 University Ave. Madison, WI 53715                                    {  
{                                                                           } 
}___________________________________________________________________________
{


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Date: 12 Jan 95 08:54:00 EST
From: Robin Garr <76702.764 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Mexicali Rogue

In Digest No. 1629, Mark Thompson proposes to brew a clone of Rogue's 
Mexicali Rogue. A fine choice!

Mark said:

> I was planning on using a pale ale as the base but I'm not sure how to
> proceed with the chipolte.  

> So my question is how much chipolte to use and should I:  
> a.)  Add to the mash (or specialty grain steep).  
> b.)  Add to the boil and if so how long.  
> c.)  Make a chipolte tea... Mmmm
> d.)  Dry hop (or dry pepper in this case).  

I first encountered this delicious brew at the Great American Beer Festival 
in 1992.  The folks at the Rogue booth were a little sketchy with the 
details, but they definitely said that they "dry-pepper" with chipotles in 
the secondary.

I'd suggest experimenting with quantities by steeping a small amount of 
chipotle (maybe 1/4 of one average-size pepper) in one 12-ounce bottle of 
similar beer overnight.  Taste it after 24 hours, and keep experimenting 
until the combination of time and amount steeped make the beer taste just 
right. Then multiply that amount of peppers by 48 to calculate the correct 
amount for a five-gallon batch.

(This probably goes without saying, but you'll want to use dried chipotles, 
not the canned variety in sauce!)

Robin Garr      | "I have enjoyed great health at a great age because    
Associate Sysop | every day since I can remember I have consumed a bottle
CompuServe      | of wine except when I have not felt well.  Then I have 
Wine/Beer Forum | consumed two bottles."  -- A Bishop of Seville         
rgarr at iglou.com                                  76702.764 at compuserve.com 


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 10:16:33 -0400 (AST)
From: Ed Hitchcock <ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca>
Subject: 2L PET bottles


	Al, in response to Dana, states that PET bottles should only be 
used for storage under 1 month, due to O2 diffusion.  I disagree.  Though 
PET plastic is fairly permeable to CO2, it is not nearly as permeable to 
oxygen.  I have stored beer in 2L PET plastic bottles for three months or 
more (in a cool, dark place) with little problem.  I would reccomend, 
however, that you bottle some beer in 2L, some in 1L, and some in regular 
bottles (you can use 22 oz bottles if you like, that cuts down on 
capping).  That way if you feel like having one beer, you don't have to 
open the equivalent of a six pack.  Save the 2L bottles for parties.

   ----------------
Ed Hitchcock, now on the right side of the student/staff division
ehitchcock at sparc.uccb.ns.ca


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 09:17:20 -0500
From: M_MACADAMS at Mail.Co.Chester.PA.US
Subject:  Supply Store Info.

I know this isn't a business forum, but a friend of mine is
considering opening a homebrew supply store and would like to
talk with someone who has done it.  If there is anyone out there
that has and would be willing to answer some questions, please
e-mail me.

Thanks,
  Mike


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 09:29:18 -0600
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: Responses

>Ron writes:
>     at my basement's winter temperature (about 52 to 62 degrees, depending 
><snip>
>     slower, but okay. Both versions of American Ale are still fermenting 
>     after 18 days in the jug, and a sniff test shows some peculiar 
>     "fruity" smell in both. It'll be a while before I can do serious taste 

I am not sure why you have a "fruity smell". This is not something that I have
encountered before. What I would like to suggest is something that is working 
VERY well for me. I have a 32 gallon plastic trash can in my garage. It is
wrapped in an old sleeping bag. Inside is my carboy sitting on a couple of
bricks.
The trash can is filled with enough water so that the beer is covered. You don't
want too much water as you can float the carboy. I use a aquarium heater to keep
the temp constant. It has been holding a steady 65F for 3 weeks now. Try it. It
was cheap to setup, got the carboy off the bathroom counter (which makes the 
other half VERY happy) and it works!

>Tom Ausfeld wrote:
>I currently have three cornelius kegs, which are all full.  But I 
>have an Oatmeal Stout sitting in its primary fermenter (carbouy) 
>since 12/30.  Here's my question: If  I rack over to a secondary 
>fermenter, how long can I safely leave it in there to condition? 
>Should I rack over every couple of weeks or is a month OK?

It has been my experience (ie what works for me YMMV etc.) that
one week in the primary and then 2 - 4 weeks in the secondary. Based
on my experiences I would save 4 - 6 weeks would probably be fine.

Doug
- --------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of       |   Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space' |   IEX Corporation
        Led Zepplin       |   (214)301-1307
                          |   djones at iex.com
- --------------------------------------------------


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 09:51:00 CST
From: Schwab_Bryan at lanmail.ncsc.navy.mil
Subject: Fermentap Inquiry

Fellow Hbrs, has anyone any experience or opinions on the "Fermentap" 
shown in the winter Zymurgy issue?  If so, I'd like to hear about it.

Private E-mail or otherwise

TIA Bryan {SCHWAB_BRYAN at LANMAIL.NCSC.NAVY.MIL}:DDN:NAVY

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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 10:36:13 -0500
From: Philip DiFalco <sxupjd at gds.fnma.COM>
Subject: One problem with the spigot on the EasyMasher<tm>:


> In HBD #1628, Steve Robinson mentioned that:
>
> One problem with the spigot on the EasyMasher<tm>:
>     The taper on the nozzle makes it difficult to keep
>     a hose from slipping off.

   I've experienced a similar concern.
   Even a hose clamp does not resolve this problem too well.
   Has anyone come up with a solution for this problem?
   (email or post if you have any solutions).
   Thanks.

- ---
Philip DiFalco, sxupjd at fnma.com
FannieMae, 3900 Wisconsin Ave., NW, Washington, DC 20016
1-202-752-2812; 1-800-SKY-FNMA (PIN#471-1735)

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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 11:36:41 EST
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: RE: water chemistry


   Hi All,

Regarding the thread on water chemistry, I cited Noonan:

>>"It contributes a harsh, bitter flavor overwhelming in delicate lagers, and
>>carbonate in excess of 200 ppm (which my water has - Jim) is tolerable only
>>when a dark roasted malt is used to buffer its excessive acidity.
>>Preferably, carbonate should be less than 50 ppm when pale malt or infusion
>>mashing is used."

In HBD#1629, Al K. responded:

>As you well know, no book is error-free and if indeed this is not a typo,
>it should have read: "only when a roasted malt is used to balance its
>excessive alkalinity."

I don't think it's a typo, but I agree that the sentence is not particularly
well written. It can be interpreted that carbonate itself is excessively
acidic, and that the dark roasted malt is providing the buffering, which is
clearly incorrect. I think Al's response states the intended semantic much
more accurately.

>Also, I don't agree that infusion mashing does not
>lend itself to high-carbonate water -- surely London's Porter and Dublin's
>Stout are infusion mashed.

Agreed. My take on Noonan's statement is that a mash comprised of pale malt
does not sufficiently acidify during infusion mashing *if* the water used is
buffered by high carbonate levels, and thus either dark malts or decoction
mashing should be used.
I base that statement on what I've read about the production of pilsners in
Pilsen. The water there is extremely soft, it certainly is not high in
carbonates, but it also has a very low level of the calcium ion. As so
eloquently stated by Bob Hall a few days ago, calcium is a key player in
mash acidification. The triple decoction mash procedure used by the brewers
of Pilsner Urquell is at least in part an adaptation to low levels of calcium
in the local water supply. I'm somewhat embarrased to admit that I don't know
exactly how or why decoction mashing contributes to mash acidification, (I've
done over 40 decoction mashes myself) if anyone can provide some details, I'd
appreciate it.

         Cheers,
           Jim               dipalma at sky.com

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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 10:41:48 -0600
From: evanms at lcac1.loras.edu (Mark Evans)
Subject: Infusion question

I've used the infusion method to mash grains for years.  I used to use two
steps--a protein rest at about 122F and then up to around 155F.  Then I
would heat the pot to mash out temp (170F) on the stove.  Since I have gone
to highly modified malt, I have also gone to a single step infusion to save
time.
        To reach the mashout temp I have inverted the papzian method and
add a small amount of boiling water to raise the pot to mashout temps in my
insulated tun.
Question:  What is the collective wisdom of doing the final temp raising
this way?  Most methods call for raising to mashout temp "over a ten minute
period" (e.g.) etc.  Whaddya think?  Am I okay? I get the right temperature
in the end.
thanks
brewfully mark



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Date:     Thu, 12 Jan 95 12:55:30 EST
From: "Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616" <wagnecz at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  re:Champagne Bottles

Tom Puskar asks various questions regarding champagne bottles.

Some quick points:

1) Several people have had problems capping them with the hand held lever 
cappers, although most of the arbor types work (I have a "colonna" from
Red Bank Brewing in NJ, which will even cap the 1.5 Liter "Magnums").

2) There are several brands of campagne bottles that have a lip diameter
hat is slightly larger than that of a standard beer cap (one of these is
Cooks brand).  Always bring a beer cap with you to discriminate if you're
not sure.

3) I highly recommend "Korbel" and Marinelli" brand bottles, as they are
fairly robust, de-label easily, and are fairly common at the Recycling
center.

4) To de-label, soak in bleach water in a slop sink or 5-gallon pails.
Let them sit for a couple of days and the solution will do the work.
I've heard people suggest ammonia instead of bleach.  They both work
about the same, but bleach doesn't stink up the basement the way ammonia
will.


			Hope this helps-
				Glen


(This year's haul was close to 200 bottles, although all the campagne I 
had to drink was about 2 oz.'s... :)  )

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Date:     Thu, 12 Jan 95 13:03:27 EST
From: "Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616" <wagnecz at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  re: Oates

Daniel Crawford asks for advice on oates to use in an oatmeal stout.
I like to use Shoprite brand "Old Fashioned Oates".  The container
says "rolled oates".  They need to be cooked for about five minutes.
I also like to get them as close to my mash temperature as possible.
Someone also suggested to me that the oatmeal can be used to adjust the
temperature of a mash, given its potent thermal mass.  I could see this
in the case of bringing the temperature up after a protein rest, but
I usually just do a straight 155 F. conversion for stouts.

Quantity should be one pound per 5 gallons of intended wort volume
(before cooking dry weight).

I'll post my stout recipe for those that want it.

			Glen


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Date:     Thu, 12 Jan 95 13:14:34 EST
From: "Glen A. Wagnecz, X6616" <wagnecz at PICA.ARMY.MIL>
Subject:  Oatmeal Stout Recipe

			Sand Pit Special*

	This recipe was adapted from Bob Jones "Smoooth Stout".  Further
guidance regarding the use of oatmeal was provided by Spencer Thomas.  The
rest was just plain experimenting (Evil Scientist/Boo!).  This recipe is
one of my most well received by both beer and non-beer drinkers alike.
Some call it a "desert beer" because of its richness.

	Grain Bill:

	These grains are mashed per below:

	25# 2-Row Pale
	3.5# 60 L Crystal
	4.0# Carapils

	Prepared separately:

	3# Shoprite Old Fashioned Oates (Rolled Oates), cooked for about
10 minutes around 160 F.  Use a big pot for this!

	These grains are steeped after mashout (see "Steep" below):

	1.75# Roast
	0.25# Black Patent
	1.0# Chocolate

	Mashing Procedure:

	Preheat the picnic cooler with boiling water, dump, and add
the grains (pale, crystal, and carapils).  Strike with between 7 and 8
gallons of 175 F. degree water (YMMV) to get to about 155 F.  When the
temperature is stable (10 minutes), add the prepared oatmeal and stir
gently.  Let sit for 1 1/2 hours and begin sparge.  Use enough water
(9-11 gallons) at 170 F. to collect 16 gallons.  Why 16?  Because I 
like to drain 1 gallon off of the bottom for my next starter!

	After you've got the 15 remaining gallons in the boiler, ignite
the jet engine or other device capable of supplying the heat that this
big thermal mass will soak up.  My experience is that I'm usually 
around 135 F. at the start.

	Steeping.  Take the specialty grains and place them in a
section cut from some nylon pantyhose and secure with a knot.  Tye
a string to this and drop into the kettle.  About every minute or
so raise the bag and allow to drain slightly.  Steal a clear glass
of the wort and check it for taste (should taste roasty and somewhat
nutty, but not overpowering, because the sweetness that is presently
balancing the taste will be gone after fermentation).  My second test
is the black cat test.  Glance pass the glass to the black cat and color
should be close.  If you don't have a black cat, hold the glass up to a
medium light and you shouldn't see through it.  Take another sip.  Yum.
A word of caution, if you don't get the taste before 165 > 170 F.
(you probably will well before), kill the heat and finish the steep before
proceeding.

The Boil.  Approach the boil carefully (use a thermometer).  The same things
that give this beer its nice creamy head just ask for a boilover.  DO NOT
TAKE YOUR EYES OFF THE KETTLE UNTIL YOU GET A HOTBREAK.  At boil, add
1/2 ounce of Nugget (13% AA) or the equivalent AA% of a similar bittering hop
and boil for an hour.

Remove the Nugget, kill the heat.  Add 1 ounce of East Kent Goldings
+ 2 ounces of Fuggles (I use a hop bag so you may want to reduce this
quantity some) and turn on the cooling.  Pitch yeast starter around 75 F.  

YOU MUST USE A BLOWOFF TUBE FOR THIS ONE.  I have never made this batch 
without experiencing a good day's worth of eruptions.  The Irish is nice, 
however, in that it finishes rather quickly, two weeks at most.  
Carbonate per your tastes.

The starter.  I use the Wyeast Irish Ale Yeast (1084?) puffed and pitched
to a 1.050 starter.  Leave yourself at least two days in advance to 
"farm" around 3/4 gallon of krausening starter.

Like Bob's original recipe, it tastes OK after about2 weeks in the bottle,
but tastes killer after about 6-8 weeks.  Holds its good taste for months
after that...

It's called Sand Pit Special because the water comes from the spring that
feeds the sand pit out back...

			Glen


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 11:47:49 EST
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject: Warm temp Lagers / decoction mash


Warm Temp Lagers:
In a few recent post brewers have asked if it was: 1) ok to use lager yeast 
at warm temps , 60F or so,and 2: if they have to cold condition after 
primary ferment.  In short the answers are 1: no 2: yes, if you want a beer 
that tastes and smells like a lager then you need to follow accepted 
practices if not you compromise the final product.

A lager beer is typically chacterized by a clean taste and aroma of malt 
and hops.  As one raises the fermentation temp beyond the suggested range 
for a yeast it tends to produce flavor and aroma chacteristics that are ale 
like and aren't part of the lager style.  If one want s to produce a Lager 
like beer , assuming the fermentation temp doesn't drop much below 60F I 
would suggest using a lager recipe and 1056 yeast,  Yes it will ferment 
slow and you may have to agiate the carboy to resuspend yeast but it will 
produce a very clean beer with minimum fruityness and esters.  The results 
are much more predictable than warm temp ferments with lager yeast.  A beer 
brewed this way may take a few weeks to finish but a true lager will take 
at least a month and typically two or more.
 .   
During the cold conditioning, lagering, phase of beer production a couple 
significant things occur, diacetyl produced in the early stages of 
fermentation are reduced by the yeast to other compounds with higher taste 
and aroma thresholds also sulphury flavor and aroma components are 
minimized.  These clean up the flavor and aroma of the beer.  Yes diacetyl 
reduction can be sped up by doing a diacetyl rest after primary but its 
absolute level is a function of primary temp so a warm ferment may produce 
more than the yeast can later reduce. .  Additionally yeast and proteins 
will fall out of suspension and you will have a clearer
brew.   

In another post someone posted about why decoction mash and what effects it 
has on a brew.
As a regulat user of this technique, even in ales,  let me comment:

Benefits of a decoction:
1) improved yeild due to additional starch gelanization.
  I have not done detailed experiments to measure yeild increase.    
2) increased melanodin formation from boiling
 A fellow brewer who makes a fine steam beer does a single decoction on the 
pale malt for one  batch he didn't this batch had a noticable lack of 
maltyness in its flavor and aroma.  IMHO any beer style in which malt 
flavor and aroma are important componets of the style are enhanced by 
decoction mash these would include Bohemian Pilsner, Ofests Bocks and many 
other German style lagers.
3)means of adding heat to an unheated mash tun
 I have started using the 40, 60, 70C  mash schedule for highly modified 
malts, which most malts  are now.   A decoction is an excellent means of 
raising the main mash from 60 to 70C, 140 to  158F.  After infusing the 
main mash to 140 I let it sit for 5 minutes, I pull a decoction and heat 
this to 158 hold 15 minutes and boil for 5 minutes.  I add this to the main 
mash and let it sit until all is converted,  this really doesn't add much 
to the mash time since it occurs in parallel to the main mash.  The 5 
minutes at 140 plus the heating to 158 and the 15 minute sach rest allow 
for most if not all the starch to be converted, any unconverted starch plus 
the gelatanized starch from the boil get converted in the enzyme rich main 
mash.

Down side:
1) more time consuming
 Each decoction step takes about 40-60 minutes
2) potential tannin extraction if decotion is too thin.
 Not really a problem if the decoction is mostly grain and little liquid.


Lee Menegoni

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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 14:39:20 EST
From: Tim Lawson <lawson at clcunix.msj.edu>
Subject: using licorice

     I would like to brew a stout with licorice and would like some
suggestions from those of you who have used it.  I would like to know
(a) what type of licorice to use (licorice root, brewer's licorice, etc),
(b) how much to use to be noticeable but not overpowering, and (c) at
what point to add it to the wort/beer (e.g., boil 60 minutes, boil 2 min.,
add to secondary fermenter, etc.).  Thanks in advance!
Tim Lawson
Cincinnati, Ohio
lawson at clcunix.msj.edu


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 14:59:32 -0500
From: lovelace at pop.nih.gov (Chris Lovelace)
Subject: beer fridge questions

Hello, all.  I've been away from the HBD for a while, but I just got done
scanning through the last month's worth of digests.  There's been some
discussion of beer fridges, but I have a couple of other questions:

I've decided to spend the $$ I got for Christmas on a kegging setup (CO2,
corny keg, fittings, etc.), and I want to get a small fride and add a tap
for dispensing.  I've been looking for a used 6 cu. ft. fridge so I can
mount a tower tap on the top and have room for two corny kegs inside, but
I've been unable to find one (a new one is $300...a tad out of my range).
I can, however get a 10 cu. ft. fridge for $50, although I'd need to put
the taps on the door instead of the top. Does anyone know of a reason _not_
to use a fridge this size?  I just want to be sure before I go out and
spend $50.

I've sold my roomates on the idea of investing in the taps and fridge so
that we could use it for megabrew kegs at parties (I'll get Sankey keg
fittings).  The only problem is I'm not sure whether a 1/2 or 1/4 bbl keg
will fit in a 10 cu. ft. fridge, which is about 24'' wide and 58'' tall.
Does anybody have any ideas on the feasablilty of this?


private e-mail ok

TIA!

Chris

LOVELACE at POP.NIH.GOV            CL1779A at AMERICAN.EDU



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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 08:36:07 MST
From: jeff at neocad.com (Jeff Stampes)
Subject: Kegging Lagers Question


Is it my imagination, or is this the second time in three months
that we've had mail bouncing back from George Fox College on a
continuing basis?

Anyway, I have recently begun two processes I have never undertaken
before: lagering and kegging.  I never had an appropriate environment
for lagering before, but with a basement that hovers around 40F, I
decided it was time!  I should add that there is a storage area that
runs about 45F as well.  I began my lager at 45F for 11 days, and then
upon racking to secondary, moved it down to the 40F (Oh...it's a
modified version of Papazian's smoked Weiss-Rauchbier).  

General questions:	How long should it stay at 40F prior to kegging?
			Since it has been staying so cool, I imagine that
			 I should *not* try and naturally condition it in
			 the keg, correct?  Would I have to bring it to
			 a warmer temp, or can I just prime it, keg it, 
			 stick it back in the basement and wait afew weeks?
			Would force carbonation be 'better' in some way?

TIA for the help!

- -- Jeff Stampes -- NeoCAD, Inc. -- Boulder, CO -- jeff at neocad.com    --
- -- Ultimate Frisbee...It's not just for dogs anymore.                -- 
- -- Any fool can make bread out of grain...God intended it for beer!  --


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 16:33:00 +0100
From: chc2 at acpub.duke.edu
Subject: stuck fermentation

Hello all,

I got a number of responses about my stuck fermentation so I thought that I
would summarize the advice I received and tell you how I resolved my
problem.

There are four things which might need to be done if your wort doesn't bubble:

1) aerate it again, but this wasn't my problem b/c I agitated, stirred and
foamed this batch more than I have any other.

2) make a yeast starter, to ensure that you have a healthy bunch of
critters to chew through even the thickest wort.   I should have done this
but b/c I had already pitched it twice, I didn't really want to pitch it
again.

3) measure the SG again just to make sure it didn't ferment on the sly.
Sometimes dry yeasts can be almost explosive and if you don't look at it
for the first couple of days, fermentation may already be complete.
Again, this wasn't my problem.

4) and the overwhelming favorite was raise the fermentation temp (given
that it is low to start with).   This was the problem.   My study is not
heated right now and the temp must have been down around 50-55F in there.
I moved it into the bedroom, nearer the heater, and with the warmer temps
that have rolled in here lately, fermentation started.   No foul odors, no
overt signs of infection, so hopefully no unwelcome creatures started
growing in the interm between cooling and the start of fermentation.

I wanted to comment on the whitish film or spots which many people have
noticed infecting their beers.   I have had a couple of cases of this
myself, one particularly bad case was in a Stout, every bottle had a kind
of greasy looking cake of white flocculation on top.   It tasted rather odd
and not being one to give up very easily, I left them under the house for a
couple of months until one day, I needed bottles and fetched a box full to
pour them out.   As I watched the first couple of bottles of dark brown
liquid swirl down the sink, I just couldn't resist tasting it again.   I
was very pleasantly surprised, the odd flavor had mellowed into something
quite nice and almost tart.    It was an excellent brew, only when I shared
it with friends, I made sure that I poured an inche off the top before I
served it to them.   So, not all infections are bad infections.

Cheers,
Chuck

Chuck Cannon
Duke University, Botany Dept.
Box 90339
Durham, NC 27708-0339
email: chc2 at acpub.duke.edu
w: (919) 684-3715
f: (919) 684-5412



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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 15:37:57 -0700
From: ANTHONY HARWARD <1HARWAAO at UVSC.EDU>
Subject:  Information on homebrewing

I am a student in Utah and I was hoping that you would send me some
information on making your own beer.  I would really appreciate if you
would send me some material.  Thanks.


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 17:50:01 -0500 (EST)
From: Bruce Beckwith <bbeckwit at bih.harvard.edu>
Subject: Bottle "crimes"

I thought I would throw caution to the wind and respond to the thread 
about keeping bottles with a deposit.  I warn readers that I have no real 
knowledge of the subject, just a faint memory of a newspaper article and 
personal observations.
 
I think that the bottle deposit system varies by location.  I live in 
Mass. and I recall seeing a newspaper article that said something like 
the state keeps all of the money from unredeemed bottles, not the 
manufacturer or distributor or retailer.  I believe that the Mass. bottle 
return law works only to keep the streets relatively clear of discarded 
cans and bottles.  In the supermarkets there are alum. can, plastic 
bottle, and glass bottle "recyclers".  These crush or chip the container 
after reading the bar code to confirm it is a deposit bottle.  Clearly 
these bottles are never going back to be refilled!
 
My own guess is that many manufacturers may find it easier and cheaper to 
just build the cost of the bottle into the price.  If they do get 
returns, all the better (free bottles).  I don't ever recall purchasing 
an obviously reused bottle in Mass, unlike the many Bud (shudder) bottles I 
remember from campus bars (many moons ago).  I seriously wonder whether 
it would be financially rewarding to have a return system for those 
wonderful imported ceramic bottles (that would have to be shipped back to 
Europe empty for refilling!).  Suffice it to say that I keep bottles 
without a second thought.  Thats my $0.05.

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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 15:42:56 MST
From: jlandrem at atmel.com (John Landreman)
Subject: Honey in Brewing

In HBD #1626 Scott Bennett said

> As far as getting honey taste or flavor, I have brewed two recipes from
> Papazian's book with honey in it and was always dissapointed that there
> wasn't any honey taste.  Maybe it would be better to use it in the same way
> as flavoring or aroma hop. I guess you would want to use it only in lightly
> hopped beers, though as a novice I could be completely wrong.

Scott,

I would suggest adding the honey at the end of the boil so as to just pasteurize
it. Boiling causes the honey to lose some of its aroma. Pasteurizing is the
suggested procedure for maximizing aroma in mead making.

Back in July of last year there was a post in the HBD about using honey in beer
and it suggested paseurizing the honey in some water and adding it to the 
fermenter at high kraeusen. So I guess the best way to look at honey in beer
is to consider it the same as fruit. Try to make sure it is not contaminated
while trying to maintain it's volatile aroma.

The post had a number of other suggestions on how to maximize the honey flavor 
in beer. If you would like me to e-mail you a copy of it let me know.

Cheers
John Landreman
Colorado Springs, Co

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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 15:27
From: CGPCS07.WING at WING.SAFB.AF.MIL (Linscheid, SSgt James)
Subject: Culturing wild yeast

Hello,

Of all of the sub-topics dealing with the art of homebrew, the culturing 
of yeast is the most interesting to me.  Although I have yet to read some 
of the better books dedicated to the subject, I have read the FAQ as well 
as what Papazian and Miller have to say about it in their books.

What puzzles me is the lack of positive discussion about wild yeast.  
Except for Lambics brewed in Belgium, I have only read about the evils of 
wild yeast.  All of the "domestic" varieties of yeast had to have been 
wild at one time.  It seems to me that we may be selling nature short by 
assuming all of the world's great yeast has been discovered, and that it 
all lives in Europe.  Has anyone ever tried to isolate wild strains of 
yeast to determine its suitability in brewing?  I realize that it would 
mean wasting a lot of wort, but the prospect of discovering a new yeast 
seems worth it.

I would like to hear what some of you think about this. After all, one of 
the advantages we have as homebrewers is not being locked into brewing 
beers from a long-gone "golden age."  At the risk of flames, I think we 
should be pushing the fermentation envelope looking for that perfect brew 
that may, or may not have been brewed before.

James Linscheid
Brewer - Beer drinker



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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 95 10:32:00 PST
From: Paul Baker <bakerp at amhsgwy.jpl.nasa.gov>
Subject: Mega gingered holiday ale


Dear holiday ale gurus;

All of the great tasting holiday ales available last year have inspired
me to make my own this year. I choose to make my first holiday ale a
traditional one based on a recipe using:

(for five gallons)
7 lbs. light DME
1/2 lb. light crystal malt
1/2 lb. chocolate malt
1 lb. orange blossom honey
 hops (don't have the specifics on hand, about 28 IBUs)
BrewTek Belgian Ale #2 from slant (1 qt. starter)

For spices I used:
   1 oz. fresh grated ginger
   6 inches crushed cinnamon stick
   1 Tsp. grated orange peel
in the last 15 minutes of the boil.

Just before bottling I simmered:
   1/2 oz. fresh grated ginger
   3 inches crushed cinnamon stick
   1/2 Tsp. grated orange peel
for 5 minutes and then strained the resulting tea though a coffee filter
and added it to the bottling bucket.

The fermentation went normally and I bottled after two weeks. It has been
in the bottle for six weeks now.

So here's the problem: the ginger is completely overwhelming. It dominates
the flavor profile so much that only a touch of cinnamon can be found. The
orange peel is nonexistent and the slightly dry finish that the honey
should have added is not there. In fact this holiday ale starts and ends
with mega ginger. None of the other spices have a chance of coming though.
Hopefully, the ginger will mellow with age, but I am finding it difficult
to be optimistic.

So, where did I go wrong. Many holiday ales are made with 3 to 5 ounces of
ginger. It is difficult to imagine using that much after taking a sip of 
mine.


Paul Baker
Telos Corp/ Jet Propulsion Laboratory

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Date: Fri, 13 Jan 95 11:17:22 +1100
From: ANDY WALSH <awalsh at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: oxygen permeable plastic?

Hello. 
Al wrote:
>Dana writes:
>    -     man, only finished my second ferment and this bottling is
>    for the birds!  what's the current concensus on using 2 liter pop
>    bottles for beer that will be consumed with 1 month of bottling?
>   Procedures?  Caveats?
>If they will be consumed withing 1 month, I'd say no problem.  Those
>bottles are not oxygen-barrier and despite the high pressure of CO2
>inside, O2 will still permiate in oxidizing the alcohols and creating
>unpleasant aldehydes.

I have heard this before on the digest, along with "plastic fermenters
are oxygen-permeable" and even "plastic linings in bottle caps are
oxygen permeable". Clearly PET bottles are not CO2 permeable
(neither are plastic linings in bottle caps), or you'd get flat soft-drink
if you bought an old bottle! I have never heard of this happening.
I believe the CO2 molecule is only slightly larger than the O2 
molecule, so I have wondered how this thread first started. 
Is there any *hard* evidence out there to support the O2 permeability
of plastic? If there is, kindly post it to the digest, as I am sure I
am not the only one who has wondered about this.
*****
Tom Ausfield wrote:
> If  I rack over to a secondary
>fermenter, how long can I safely leave it in there to condition?
>Should I rack over every couple of weeks or is a month OK?
I have left beer in a plastic secondary for 3 months with no noticable
bad effects (in fact the beer was wonderful!). I have left beer in a
glass carboy for 6 months with no ill-effects. Strong beers in particular
(eg. >1070) seem to benefit from this. I certainly would not rack every
couple of weeks as you increase the risk of infection, oxidation etc..
So just leave it alone and it will be fine, but preferably in a cool
place (eg. 60F).


Andy W. (awalsh at ozemail.com.au)
PS. How about nuking George Fox College?











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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 20:44:01 -0500
From: DONBREW at aol.com
Subject: foxmail

>
>Date: 11 Jan 1995 01:43:07 -0000
>From: Gateway at foxmail.gfc.edu (Gateway)
>Subject: NDN: Homebrew Digest #1628 (January 11, 1995)
>
>Sorry. Your message could not be delivered to:
>
>Robert Hoover,George Fox College (The name was not found at the remote site.
>Check that the name has been entered correctly.)
>
Wait a Dammed minute!!!! nobody sent me #1628!!!! Is this foxmail thing what
is screwing things up?

Donbrew at aol.com


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Date: Thu, 12 Jan 1995 22:17:14 -0500
From: JimSomers at aol.com
Subject: Mac brewing software

In HBD #1628 the table of contents listed Mac brewing software, but I did not
see anything in the text about it.  Is there Mac brewing software available?

Jim
Westfield, MA

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1630, 01/13/95