FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  UNYHA Annual Competition (Kaltenbach)
  Thermometers ("Bob Hall" )
  Tradition Ale Recipe (Doug Mewhort)
  Utilization Research/Biscuit/starter infections (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  HSA ignored at Breckenridge (Art Steinmetz)
  Introducing myself (Will Self)
  Re: Aluminum ("Robert W. Mech")
  Mash thickness/IBUs one *last* time (David Draper)
  Re: Zymomonas (bickham)
  Mashing and a fine grind (Chuck E. Mryglot)
  Testing a yeast starter ("Keith Royster")
  "Cheep" pumps ("Dutcher, Pier")
  RE:Dropping (Jim Busch)
  perfect score/irish moss/beer engine/B-Brite/isinglass/London ESB/banana (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Beer Line Pressure Drop ("MICHAEL L. TEED")
  Mill rollers (Norman Pyle)
  Dry-hopping in primary (David Turner)
  Strange Taste in SA Double Bock (Dale Moore)
  Re: Dual kettle IBU calculation ("Thomas Aylesworth")
  IBU measurements (Dan Pack)
  Dropping Beer and The KGB ("Fleming, Kirk R., Capt")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 19:45:21 -0500
From: Kaltenbach at aol.com
Subject: UNYHA Annual Competition

It's time to get brewing for the UNYHA 17th Annual AHA-sanctioned 
Competition!  It's a great chance to get some credit for brewing great 
beer or mead!  Prizes and high-quality certificates are awarded to 1st, 
2nd, and 3rd place winners.  Best of show prize is a complete home 
kegging system!  Send in those entries!
_______________________________________________________________________

                Upstate New York Homebrewers Association
           17th Annual Competition and 6th Empire State Open

                        Saturday, April 22, 1994
                 McGinnity's Restaurant and Party House
                          534 West Ridge Road
                          Rochester, New York

             Doors open at 6 PM  --  Judging begins at 7 PM
                           Admission:  $5.00

     Come & join the fun!  Enjoy complimentary samples of homebrew!
_______________________________________________________________________

11 HOMEBREW STYLES WILL BE JUDGED:

     British Ale              Light Lager              Porter & Stout
     North American Ale       Amber Lager              Belgian        
     Brown Ale                Dark Lager               Specialty
     Mead           Looks Like "Saranac Pale Ale"

               No entries will be accepted after April 12.

Contest entries may be entered at homebrew shops in Rochester, Buffalo, 
Syracuse, Utica, Ithaca, Binghamton, Albany, and the Hudson Valley 
 -or- they may be shipped.  Send email request to address below for more 
information.

Prizes:

  * Prizes are awarded for 1st, 2nd, and 3rd places in all categories
  * For all categories (except Looks Like):  Malt extract or other brewing 
    supplies (honey for Mead category)
  * For Looks Like "Saranac Pale Ale":  Prizes awarded by F.X. Matt's 
    Brewery

Prizes For Best of Show:

  1st Prize -- Complete home kegging system 
  2nd Prize -- $50 gift certificate for homebrew supplies from The Wine 
               Press & Hops
  3rd Prize -- $25 gift certificate at Rohrbach Brewing Company

(All categories except Mead and Looks Like "Saranac Pale Ale" compete 
for best of show.)

*** Contest Sanctioned by the American Homebrewers Association ***

For more info about our competition, email me at the address below:

========================================================================
Tom Kaltenbach               Member, Upstate New York Homebrewers Assoc.
Email:  kaltenbach at aol.com   Rochester, New York, USA                   
========================================================================


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Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 20:12:38 EST
From: "Bob Hall" <bhall at sparc.ecology.uga.edu>
Subject: Thermometers

    >Just broke my third glass thermometer since last September--a standard 
    > grocery-store "candy" cooking thermometer. At $3.95 each, this isn't 
    > the end of the world, but I'm wondering if there's something sturdier 
    > available at a reasonable price. (Note: I also have one of the 
    > bi-metal candy thermometers, but it's too slow & will stick & then go 
    > "dooiing" & jump up 25 degrees, so don't recommend one of those to 
    > me.)

I use a photographic developing thermometer. It has a two inch dial and is 
accurate to 0.5 degree C, and responds more quickly than any thermometer I have 
seen. Photographers  need to be as/more careful about temperature than we 
brewers. It has two  drawbacks: 1. $20   2. It only goes to 70 degrees C, so I 
use a cheap thermometer to  mash out (for which you do not need to be so exact).

Bob Hall
bhall at sparc.ecology.uga.edu



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Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 18:50:50 -0700
From: lmewhort at gpu.srv.ualberta.ca (Doug Mewhort)
Subject: Tradition Ale Recipe

Well, I'm finally gotten off of my butt and sent in the Big Rock Traditional 
Ale Recipe that we have been working on. Sorry to all of you that requested 
it from me that it took so long.

Big Rock Traditional Clone Take 4 (Damn we're getting close!!) (All grain)

For 10 Gallons

Grain Bill

2 Row	            17.60 Lbs
Cara-Stan	2.00 Lbs
Black Patent	0.14 Lbs

Hops         Weight      Alpha         Boil       Type
                (Grams)                      Time

Centenial	    0.50        10.2%          60        leaf
Galenas	    0.50        11.0%          60        pellet
Centenial	    0.50        10.2%          10        leaf
Galenas      0.50        11.0%          10        pellet

Crush grains and mash in with 19.8 quarts of 170F water for a saccrification 
rest at 145F. Mash for 20 minutes and add 5.9 quarts of boiling (210  here) 
water for a dextrine rest at 158F. Mash for 60 additional minutes and sparge 
with 170F water to make 13 gallons. Boil for 1 hour using the hop schedual 
above. Chill to 65F and add 1.5 quarts of London Ale ESB yeast starter (3/4 
quart to each 6.5 gallon fermenter). Ferment at 62F (the tempertature of my 
basement) for 1 week and rack to secondary. Bottle or keg when clear.

Notes: Version 3 of this beer had 3/4 oz of the centenial and galena hops 
for the 60 minute addition. It made for an outstanding beer, albeit somewhat 
hoppier than Trad itself. The maltiness is the critical factor for this 
beer, the longer dextrine mash and the ESB yeast have been important 
contributers to the richness of the beer.

Good luck to all of you, I hope you enjoy the beer.

Doug.
Homebrewer, Chef and Weekend Warrior.




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Date: 20 Feb 95 17:57:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Utilization Research/Biscuit/starter infections

I wrote:
>What Glenn and Martin Manning are working on is the first scientific study
>of the factors associated with hop utilization that is to be shared with
>the homebrewing community.  I await their results also, especially since
>I am one of the project's financial sponsors.

I've since learned that work is progressing and that Jim Liddil's name should
be added to the list of researchers.  Sorry for ommiting you initially Jim...

***
Mark writes:
>BTW: How is biscuit made? (I hear that some people only use a small
>amount of it in their grist, how much).

DeWolf-Cosyns Biscuit malt is a toasted malt.  It is similar to Briess
Victory malt, but it is made from 2-row barley.  It differs from DWC
Aromatic in that the Aromatic is like a dark Munich malt -- it is malted
and then kilned wet at a high temperature.  Biscuit, on the other hand, is
first kilned at cooler temps, like a Pale Ale malt, but then the temp is
raised and the malt is "roasted."  Basically, it adds a toasty flavour to
your beer and some colour.  DWC Biscuit is about 25 Lovibond.  It will not
convert itself (Aromatic will), so it must be used along with a malt that
has some spare diastatic power.  I would recommend using no more than about
15% of it in a grain bill, however, sometimes breaking the "rules" results
in something very interesting.

***
Art writes:
>   I use 4 oz of light DME in 1 qt of water ( SG~1.040, but no hops though)
>and boil for 5-7 min, cool the pot in cold bath, then bottle with previously
>sanitized bottles and caps with previously sanitized caps.  These starters
>are stored unrefrigerated in my basement, and within a week or two there
>is all kinds of critters growing in them.  Some of these unwanted visitors
>coat the top layer of the starter wort with a 1/8 inch thick mat, and other

These are aerobes.  If you flushed the bottle with CO2 before capping, this
would help reduce the chance of them.

>times there are fluffy looking balls (1/2 inch dia.) floating around the
>bottom.  All the bottled starter wort has some other junk sitting at the
>bottom of the bottles, I'm guessing it is a combination of hot/cold break,
>as well as more living creatures, as they tend to get larger over time.

The living stuff at the bottom is probably anaerobic bacteria, like lacto-
bacillus or pediococcus.  Perhaps what you need to do with the starters
is can them -- really, just like canning fruit -- get a pressure cooker
and follow the directions.  It sounds like you have a lot of life in your
air.

>   My concerns are that I use bottles and caps sanitized by the same method
>for bottling beer, and I can't seem to make any safe starter wort.

If your concern is that your beer may be contaminated, then you may be
over-reacting.  Your beer is contaminated.  So is mine.  So is everybody
elses.  Nobody can make five gallons of completely sterile wort in their
home and keep it sterile during fermentation, racking, bottling, etc.  The
key is to give the yeast a head start and minimize the amount of contamination.
If your beer gushes after a few weeks in the bottle, then you may want to
re-assess your procedures, but if it doesn't show any off flavours or aromas
then don't worry, etc.  Beer and wort are two completely different animals.
Even a small infection in stored starter wort can ruin it, but beer has far
less available sugar, very little oxygen, few nutrients (amino acids) left
and the hops help out too.

> I sanitize
>bottles with bleach or iodophor, and bottle caps by steeping in boiling water
>for 5 min.  Is a small addition of hops to the starter batch necessary (and
>now 30 min boils), and/or refrigeration needed, or should I cook up the
>starter just prior to use?  Any other suggestion would be appreciated.  I
>think this will be of general interest, so please post replies.  TIA!

If you suspect infection, I recommend tossing the starter wort even if you
could boil to kill whatever got in there.  Canning may be a way to get
better results.

Al.

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Date: Mon, 20 Feb 1995 22:08:51 -0500
From: Art Steinmetz <asteinm at pipeline.com>
Subject: HSA ignored at Breckenridge

I was at the Breck brewpub in Breck. the other day (can you say "multiple
feet of fresh powder?") and saw the sparge in progress.  The hot wort flows
into an open stainless bucket called a "gran-<something>" and from there is
pumped into the boiler.  Much foaming occurs in this bucket.  The brewer on
duty said HSA was not a concern, that's just the way the system was
designed and that their Denver location uses a completely closed system. 
 
This setup looks to be a very efficient HSA *generator*.  Can anyone
explain what's going on?  Thanks. 

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Date: Mon, 20 Feb 95 21:51:18 -0700
From: wself at viking.emcmt.edu (Will Self)
Subject: Introducing myself

Hi.  I'm new to this group, and would like to introduce myself briefly.
I've been away from brewing for a while and am thinking of taking it back
up.

I brewed my first batch in San Diego around 1973.  At that time,
information was scarce and hops were worse.  They came packaged in paper
and sat on the shelves of the store; their "aroma" was reminiscent of
dirty socks.  Once I bought a 90 lb sack of feed barley and tried to
malt it.  I did succeed in clogging up the sink.  I also did manage to
brew some "beer" out of it, the likes of which I have never tasted before
or since.

I remember drinking some of my brother's home brew from that era, and
waking up the next morning not particularly caring to go on living.

I have some questions about fermenters.  Rather than go on here, I think
I'll post them in later messages.

Will Self
Billings, Montana, on the Yellowstone River, longest undammed river in the US

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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 01:27:49 -0600 (CST)
From: "Robert W. Mech" <rwmech at eagle.ais.net>
Subject: Re: Aluminum

> Date: Fri, 17 Feb 1995 11:47:10 EST
> From: "Robert Bloodworth                         
> Subject: 5l party Kegs, Is Aluminum a problem?
> 
> Another question: What problems are there with aluminum containers and hot
> wort?
> A local restaurant supply store has some 60 and 80 liter aluminum 
> alloy boiling
> pots complete with a draining valve which cost less than half that of 
> stainless.
> Thanks in advance.
>   
 
Robert, 
 
Brewing Techniques just covered the whole aluminum subject in the 1995 
Jan/Feb issue.  For those of you who dont get this periodical, heres a 
breif summary.  If you want more information than this, I suggest picking 
up the issue.  It also covers alot of medical information and research 
which im not going to cover here to save space.
 
Much to *MY* surprise aluminum is in alot of foods and such that you 
eat.  And standard diatary intake is something like 25mg a day (Sorry 
dont have article in front of me.).  Foods such as mushrooms are in fact 
high in aluminum.  Its also present in most water supplies.  
 
BT also ran a test in the article where they used a Stainless Pot, and an 
aluminum pot, to boil the same type of wort.  Then then sent it out for 
testing.  The results came back revealing that the amount of aluminum in 
the wort was about the same as whats present in most water supplies.  
This is CONSIDERABLY less than the diatary intake of aluminum.  
 
They went on further to add however, that the PH of the wort will modifiy 
the amount of aluminum that will be released into the wort.  
 
They summed up the article by saying that there really isnt any reason 
not to use aluminum if you have enough trust in the Gov to believe them 
that minimal amounts of aluminum are not dangerous. 
 
IMHO, I tend to believe this.  If youre getting 25mg or more of aluminum 
a day in just your diatary intake, why are we all paranoid about aluminum 
pots?  Its going to have to take ALOT of wort before youll boil off 25mg 
of your aluminum pot.  
 
I really do suggest that those of you who have been paranoid about using 
aluminum read this article.  I have for a long time been paranoid myself, 
but after reading this artcile, I have changed my views considerably.
 
Robert

- -- 
Robert W. Mech | All Grain HomeBrewer.  President, Fermentors At Large
Elk Grove, IL. | Author Of "Frugal Brewers Guide To Brewing Aids"
rwmech at ais.net | For More Information: http://www.cl.ais.net/~rwmech


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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 22:22:20 +1100 (EST)
From: David Draper <ddraper at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Mash thickness/IBUs one *last* time

Dear Friends, a few recent posts have gotten me thinking about the 
effects of mash thickness on extraction efficiency--*all else being 
equal*.  I'm not knowledgeable enough to extrapolate from my limited 
experience, so would some of you mashmeisters kindly comment on this?  At 
what point does a mash become "too" thin?  My main motivation for asking 
this is that I am engaged in some experiments with the 40-60-70 program, 
and am currently infusing from 40 to 60 and heating directly for the 
rest, and in a couple recent batches have had water:grain mass ratios 
approaching 3 (e.g. 3 litres/kg of grain), but my extraction has been 
fine.  Thanks in advance.

OK, one last comment from me on this IBU biz: I do believe strongly that 
there is great value in accurate (more or less) IBU prediction.  Having 
said that, I also agree strongly that one should use what works in one's 
own setup, as has been stated a few times recently.  Let's say I want to 
make Style X, which is known (from sources like Jackson's books) to have 
an IBU range of say 28-33 IBUs.  It is all very well for me to have a 
good idea what works in my own setup, but this is only as good as my 
ability to estimate bitterness using my palate (in the absence of lab 
analysis).  A *reasonably* accurate IBU formulation will allow me to at 
least get into the ballpark for my target Style X, and to me this is very 
important, given that life is short (although grain is cheap) and one has 
only a finite number of batches one can brew before going to the great 
Yeast Ranch in the Sky.  I just had my first real judging experience the 
other night and learned just how poor my palate is--I don't want to muck 
around for N batches zeroing in on my Target.  So if an IBU formulation 
appears that is pretty close to the Truth, I want to know about it.  OK, 
I'll shut the heck up now about this...

Cheers, Dave in Sydney
- --
"Never trust a brewer who has only one chin" ---Aidan Heerdegen
******************************************************************************
David S. Draper, School of Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, NSW 2109
Sydney, Australia. email: david.draper at mq.edu.au fax: +61-2-850-8428
             ....I'm not from here, I just live here....


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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:04:11 -0500 (EST)
From: bickham at msc.cornell.edu
Subject: Re: Zymomonas

In HBD 1661, Patrick Babcock wtote,

> Miller talks of Zymomonas, a bacteria that dwells in the soil and pesters
> breweries having new construction in The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing
> page 180. Fix speaks of them in Principles of Brewing Science on page 202. My
> question is this: How long before one can say an area is safe to brew in? Is
> infection via Zymomonas worthy of worry?

While fortunately I don't have any direct experience with this bacteria,
according to Malting and Brewing Science, Zymomonas can spoil cask beer
in a few hours.  The optimum temperature is 86 F, but it grows rapidly
at 59 F.  It can also grow over a wide pH range, and is not extremely
sensitive to hops.  It grows in a microaerophilic conditions and primarily
uses glucose as its carbon source - hence the problem with cask conditioned
beers that are primed.

Symptoms include the unpleasant stenches of hydrogen sulfide (rotten eggs)
and acetaldehyde (green apples), and it requires a thorough cleaning if
it becomes a contaminate.  As far as prevention in your friend's newly
constucted basement,  I don't feel the conditions are any worse than
when brewing in the summer when the air is full of microorganisms.  Minimize
exposure to air during rcaking and bottling, and be careful not to stir
up dust with vacuum cleaners, clothes dryers, etc.  Healthy yeast starters
are very important, since the yeast will consume the wort sugars before
the bacteria grows enough to cause problems.  So although I hate to use
this phrase - don't worry (unless the beer begins to smell like rotten 
eggs).

Scott

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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 09:05:06 EST
From: cem at cadre.com (Chuck E. Mryglot)
Subject: Mashing and a fine grind

Thought I'd pass along this recent experience...    

    A few weeks ago I ran into the brewshop to pick up some grain for the next
days brewing. I was in a hurry (wife and kids waiting in car) and quickly ran 
the grain thru the Malt Mill and was on my way.  Next day (Sunday) as I was 
about to start mashing I saw that the grain was barely crushed....The previous
user of the mill must have opened up the settings. So, I took out my Waring
Blender and 'processed' all of the grain.  What I ended up with was something
between nicely crushed grain and flour....e.g. more floury than a Corona.  I
expected to have problems.

    I mash on the stovetop and sparge in a picnic cooler with slotted pipes. 
Mashing went fine. Sparging was quite slower than I am used to but the runoff
became extremely clear with very little re-circulation. I had to knife the 
grainbed once or twice to keep it going, but the entire sparge was completed 
in about 45 minutes.   My extraction went way up.  from my usual 24, 25 p/p/g
to 30/31.  The beer is still in ferment so I can't comment on flavor, but it
was one of the cleasest worts I have produced.  

So, I brewed again this  weekend and tried the same thing again....not because
the grain was poorly crushed this time (is was not), but I wanted to see if 
the results were repeatable. I re-processed the grain in my blender and
proceeded.  Same results... real clear runoff with little re-circ, slow
sparge and higher extraction... 31 p/p/g.

I believe that the increased extraction is due solely to the fine grind.
I usually sparge in 20 - 25 minutes and produced  the same results with
longer sparges, so I don't think that the longer sparge in contributing
much.

    Now, should I expect any bad flavor components from having ground husks?

Once I taste the finished  beers I'll pass on my comments.

cheers for now
ChuckM 

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Date:          Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:56:45 EST
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       Testing a yeast starter 

In HBD#1663 Stephen Harrington asked how to tell if a yeast starter 
is good.

>how can I tell if the starter is any good?  It has led a troubled 
>life and I really do not trust it.  Is it as simple as smelling it, 
>or should I take a taste of the 'beer' and see if it is bad?

Smell and taste can't hurt.  However, I had a similar question 
concerning a starter of mine.  I called the advise line of my local 
supply store and explained that I wasn't sure if my yeast starter was 
active or not.  They instructed me to take a pinch of sugar (table 
sugar is fine) and drop it into the starter bottle.  If the yeast are 
active in sufficient quantities, they will attack the sugar 
agressively, almost consuming it all before it hits the bottom of the 
bottle.  The result will be a column of CO2 bubbles rising quickly to 
the surface of the wort.  It is actually quite amazing to watch!

>P.S. How does one avoid having the hops they are dry-hopping with 
>clog up the airlock?

I'm not sure what's going on here, but I'll have to assume that you 
are putting the hops in the primary and the fermenting wort is 
bubbling the hops up into the airlock.  If this assumption is 
correct, try dry hopping in the secondary.  Or, if you are using 
single stage fermentation, then at least wait until after the most 
active part of fermentation is over before putting the hops in.


+------------------------------+-------------------------+
| Keith Royster                |  NC-DEHNR / Air Qualtiy |
| Environmental Engineer (EIT) |  919 North Main St.     |
| n1ea471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us |  Mooresville, NC 28115  |
+------------------------------+  Voice: (704) 663-1699  |
| "I think I ran over my       |  Fax:   (704) 663-6040  |
|  Dogma with my Karma."       |                         |
+------------------------------+-------------------------+

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Date: 21 Feb 95 07:03:33 PST
From: "Dutcher, Pier" <PEDU at chevron.com>
Subject: "Cheep" pumps


From: Dutcher, Pier     -PEDU
To:  OPEN ADDRESSING SERVI-OPENADDR
Subject:  "Cheep" pumps
Date: 1995-02-21 06:51
Priority:

- ------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Brian Ellsworth asks:
<Anyone know of a source for a better, small, cheep pump?>

Brian, I don't know what you consider cheap, but I went to my local "Home
Improvement" - type discount hardware store and picked up a small pump used
to circulate water in those little garden fountains.  The price, as I
recall, was ~$30 - $50 (it was a LONG time ago), and it's supposed to
recirculate 360 gal./hour.  (If it ever starts to make a "cheeping" noise,
it's wearing out and needs replacing. :-)
 Pier Dutcher   (pedu at chevron.com)




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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 10:45:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: RE:Dropping

More on Wheelers dropping:

<However, a good many active yeast cells
are also left behind on the bottom of the vessel, and some highly flocculant
<yeast strains require re-aeration to encourage the yeast to multiply and
<restore the yeast count to reasonable levels. It is this re-aeration that
<is the stumbling block for many home brewers due to the fear of airborne
<infection. It is true that re-aeration goes against the normal rules of
<sound home-brewed beer, but it is my view that the advantages of the
<dropping system outweigh its risks".

But does Wheeler cover the issue of increased diacetyl levels when using
this procedure?  I would guess that an important factor in addition to the
yeast flocculation characteristics is the yeasts reducing ability.  Diacetyl
will be increased, but in some strains this could be then be reduced, no?

I had a bitter made with the Rockville 1187 strain.  First cask was drained
a few days after casking, and had a nice subtle diacetyl component.  Tasted
the second cask yesterday and this was gone.  

BTW, Jim was absolutely correct in his point about isinglass in a cask, the
cask is stored between 10-15C for proper dispense and the isinglass stays
put on the bottom of the cask.  Its also quite correct that some strains 
have no need for isinglass.  The 1187 is one in point, as is the Wyeast 1056,
they drop brilliantly without finings, but then we dont usually ship our 
cask ales across town.

- -- 
Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date: 21 Feb 95 09:51:00 -0600
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: perfect score/irish moss/beer engine/B-Brite/isinglass/London ESB/banana

Jim writes:
>I feel that we should not be afraid of awarding a perfect score, even
>if what we consider "perfect" changes over time.  There are some 
>perfect beers and homebrewers are making them too.

I agree, but what if the next beer is even better?  The highest score I've
given was a 47 at the 1st round of the AHA Nationals.  It went on to win
1st place in the 2nd round and then Best of Show.

***
Jerry writes:
>maybe?) wrote concerning the optimum amount / time-in-boil when using 
>irish moss. I think they had _actual scientific evidence_ to back it up,
>too! Does anybody still have this info? Lately I've seen widely varying 
>opinions about how much to add (anywhere from 1/4 tsp - 3 Tbs) and when.

The bottom line, as I read it from Dr. Fix's research was that "refined
flakes" are the best form of Irish Moss and that there is a compromise
between a rate of 1/16 gram per liter and 1/8 gram per liter.  In my
opinion, the best compromise is 1/8 gram per liter.  I once figured out
what this is in teaspoons per 5 gallons, but lost my note.  Somebody may
want to check this, but I believe it was 1 teaspoon per 5 gallons came
out to 1/8 gram per liter, using the flaked irish moss I have.  It works
best when rehydrated overnight in water and then added in the last 15
minutes of the boil.

Also:
>ps  What's a beer engine?

It's a pump, basically.  It is one of the two most traditional ways of
dispensing real ale (the other being gravity).  There are two other
acceptable ways of dispensing real ale, according to CAMRA, and they
are electric pump and air pressure, the latter being more common in
Scotland.  Another name for a beer engine is a "handpump."  In the
Pacific Northwest (and increasingly throughout the US), you will note
pubs advertising: "Cask Conditioned" ales.  This implies that the
beer is a real ale and that it will be served via beer engine or gravity.

***
Matt writes:
>I feel kind of stupid asking but what is B-Brite and where can I get 
>it?  I tried several homebrew stores and drew a blank.

It is basically Sodium Percarbonate and a few other less-important ingredients.
Your suppliers can get it wholesale from Crosby and Baker Ltd., Westport, Mass.
or a similar product called One-Step is available wholesale from L.D. Carlson,
Kent, Ohio.

***
Robert writes:
>I wasnt aware that *any* preparation had to be done to isinglass.  Ive 
>been using the stuff for at least 2 years now, the only preparation I do 
>is when making my priming soluition.  As for the 20C thing, im not sure 
>thats entirely true either.  Ive been adding my isinglass with my priming 
>solution when boiling it before adding it to the beer.   Ive always 
>ended up with crystal clear beer. <snip>

I'm afraid you have been throwing your money away.  Boiling isinglass (or
gelatin, for that matter) denatures it and it does nothing for your beer.
I'll bet your beer would have come out perfectly crystal clear without it.
When you buy it, it should be refrigerated and rather thick.  If it is thin
and watery, then it has already gone bad.

***
David writes:
>I remember a recent discussion about the decreased carbonation using the 
>Wyeast London ESB yeast <snip>
>I have used this yeast twice and both times the carbonation 
>was on the low side.  The beers were excellent but less carbonated.  Has 
>anybody here had the same experience?  Also, is the yeast that many of 
>the british bitter and pale ale producers use the reason why many of the 
>english beers are less carbonated?

What you may be experiencing is that this yeast is an excellent flocculator
and thus there is less of it available for carbonation after bottling.  I
suspect that if you haven't changed your priming methods, you should get
the same carbonation, it just may take a little longer.  British real ales
are less carbonated because they are brewed that way and then served via
handpump (aka beer engine).  All beers used to be relatively low carbonation
until most brewers stopped using wooden fermenters and bottling and CO2
dispensing became popular.  The british are a stubborn lot (God bless them)
and thankfully there are enough traditionally-minded ones among them to have
retained the traditional methods of brewing and dispensing ales.

Incidentally, Dennis would slay me if I didn't take this opportunity to plug
the Real Ale Fest (RAF) to be held in/near Chicago on October 13th & 14th.
If you love real ale or think you might (and you're not in your cousin's
wedding party that weekend!) you should make it a point to attend.

***
Sean writes:
>	the last couple batches I've brewed have been plagued with a very
>noticable "banana" smell that seems to develop after about a week in the 
>primary.

Unless you are using Wyeast #3068 (Weihenstephan #68) or Wyeast #1214 (Belgian
Ale) or some really, really old Red Star Ale yeast, you may have a wild yeast
infection.  These three yeasts are well-known for producing banana esters.
Switch to a different yeast or watch your sanitation.

Al.



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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:22:50 CST
From: "MICHAEL L. TEED" <MS08653 at MSBG.med.ge.com>
Subject: Beer Line Pressure Drop

 .int homebrew at hpfcmi.fc.hp.com

 I was looking through a catalog I just recieved and found a table of line
 resistance of various hoses. This should allow you to calculate line pressure
 drops with ease.

 Line Size            resistance per foot (psi)      capacity per foot ( oz )
 Vinyl hose    Polyethylene
 3/16"                   3 lb           2.2 lb              1/6 oz
 1/4"                    .85 lb         .5 lb               1/3 oz
 5/16"                   .40 lb         .20 lb              1/2 oz
 3/8"                    .20 lb         .07 lb              3/4 oz
 1/2"                    .025 lb           -              1 1/3 oz
 In addition to the above it is necessary to add .5 lb of drop per foot of
 vertical rise to the above values, regardless of tubing diameter. This should
 help you to design your system to pour the perfect beer...

 Mike Teed


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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 9:26:12 MST
From: Norman Pyle <npyle at hp7013.ecae.StorTek.COM>
Subject: Mill rollers

Drew Keegan writes:

>I am attempting to build a grain mill and I have read that
>many people recommend or at least talk of texture on the
>rollers.  My question is what type of texture?  Is this simply
>rough vs. smooth or is there some sort of pattern or teeth idea?
>I am starting with smooth 2" diameter maple dowls.

Drew, with 2" diameter rollers you will definitely need some texturing.  I
think you would need at least 4" diameter rollers (6" would work for sure) if
you want to get away without roughing up the rollers.  Another problem you're
likely to have:  the maple dowels may not stay roughed up.  I tried this with
oak and by the time I had ground 8 pounds, they were smoothing out to the
point that they wouldn't pull the grain through.  If you are going to stick
with wood rollers, I suggest you use very large diameter, like 6", and you'll
never have to worry about the surface.  If you are going to use smaller
rollers, they will probably have to be metal, something that'll stay rough
with use.

Good luck,
Norm

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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 11:39:16 EST
From: dturner at ganymede.sca.com (David Turner)
Subject: Dry-hopping in primary

Greetings!

As a novice extract homebrewer, I ferment my brews in a plastic bucket (i.e., 
primary only).  I would like to try my hand at dry-hopping, but am wondering 
about the necessity of using a secondary fermenter.  I normally bottle after 
10-14 days of fermentation.  For my next batch, I was thinking of adding some 
fresh Cascade hops (probably in a cloth bag of some sort) after the initial 
vigorous fermentation has died down (i.e., after about a week), and removing 
them before bottling (i.e., about another week).  Does this sound reasonable
(i.e., anyone out there done this before)?  Is my writing annoying (i.e., too
many (i.e.) constructs)?  Thanks all...later...DT

- ---
David Turner
dturner at sca.com

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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:41:04 CST
From: dmoore at adc.com (Dale Moore)
Subject: Strange Taste in SA Double Bock


Hi all,

  I have been homebrewing for about a year and occasionally produced a brew with
an "off" flavor that I have not been able to pin down. I beleived that is was 
either the DMS "cooked corn" taste or the "sherry like" aeration flavor
described in several books. I had not had the problem for a while, I thought
because I started cooling the wort before adding to the fermenter, until a
recent batch of partial mash Pale Ale in which it reappeared.

  Anyway, I recently saw that SA Double Bock was back in season so I picked up
a six pack. When I opened the first one, I was greeted with the exact bad flavor
that has been in my homebrew.

  My question is, has anybody out there noticed this flavor in this years SA 
and is this really a "bad" flavor or just a taste I don't care for in my beer.
I swear that last years SA didn't have this flavor present. How do I avoid this
in the future, I don't like pouring beer into the sewer system.

Thanks in advance and private E-mail is fine.

						A Confused Rookie
						dmoore at adc.com

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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 11:59:00 -0500
From: "Thomas Aylesworth" <t_aylesworth at lfs.loral.com>
Subject: Re: Dual kettle IBU calculation

Robert Mongeon <rmongeon at together.net> asks:

> If I hop the two batches separatly, but together, how do I calculate the
> IBU for the total batch when the SG of the two kettles are different. Can
> I take two hydrometer readings and plug them into the equation using
> 5.5 gallons as the total? Would the total IBU then be equal to the sum of
> both batches?

Since IBU by definition is a measurement of bitterness content _per volume_,
the total IBU should be equal to the _average_ bitterness of the two kettles,
not the sum.  I am also using two kettles for my boil.  I sparge into a
large bucket, stir to mix the wort so that it should all have the same
gravity, and then divide it in half between the two boilers.  I then take
my hop additions and divide them in half.  Since both boilers have the same
gravity and the same amount of hops, I can treat recipe design as if I was
using one boiler.

Just to toss in my own $.02 on the whole IBU discussion, as several have
already mentioned, the only thing that matters in the end is the taste.  I
do use an approximation of Rager's numbers to get my beers in the ballpark,
(actually I use the spreadsheet designed by Martin Manning that appeared in
a Brewing Techniques last year) but after that I just taste the beer.  If
it isn't exactly what I had in mind, I make a note of it in case I ever make 
the beer again.  IMO, there never will be completely accurate formulas for
calculating bitterness - there are just too many variables.  So getting
bent out of shape over which of these formulas to use just doesn't make
sense to me.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------
Thomas Aylesworth                     |  t_aylesworth at lfs.loral.com
Space Processor Software Engineering  |  
Loral Federal Systems, Manassas, VA   |  (703) 367-6171


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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 1995 09:32:42 -0800
From: danpack at grape-ape.che.caltech.edu (Dan Pack)
Subject: IBU measurements


First of all let me say this thread on hop utilization has been
great.  I'm anxiously awaiting some *definitive* data that can
answer this question once and for all.  However, in the mean time
I have a prediction as to what the answer will be........

IT DEPENDS....

Anyway, the real reason for this post....Last week (#1657) Daniel
F. McConnell posted his results from measuring his own IBUs.  Daniel
if you're out there I've tried to e-mail you a couple of times but
it keeps bouncing back.  I would really like to try these measurements
myself an I would appreciate it if you could send me a quick description
of your procedure (volumes of beer and hexane, wavelengths, extinction
coeffs., etc...).  Private e-mail would be fine.  But it also seems
that there are an awful lot of addresses that end with .edu on the 
digest which may mean more of us have access to a spectrophotometer
than one might think.  Anyone else interested in seeing the procedure?

Thanks in advance,
Dan Pack
danpack at grape-ape.caltech.edu


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Date: Tue, 21 Feb 95 10:56:00 MST
From: "Fleming, Kirk R., Capt" <FLEMINGKR at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil>
Subject: Dropping Beer and The KGB


RE: HBD #1663

Dropping Beer
 -------------

>From: johnj at primenet.com (John J Palmer)
>Subject: Dropping == Racking?!

I started this thread with a question to Brian G. re: his processing of
beer to ensure a clear, cask-conditioned ale.  Brian came back with his
process, which included racking the beer after 24-36 hours of ferment.
He called it "dropping", and yes, I agree we'd just call this racking
the beer after two days.

BUT...the process Brain described was unique and differentiated it from
what we usually think of as racking to a 2ndary: first, the beer is
just coming down from high krauesen, and second, he aerated during the
rack.

These two unique aspects of the process may warrant the use a new term
("new" to some of us in the States, anyway), if in fact it is only used
to describe racking at the 24-36 hour mark and with aeration.  But then
there are several quotes from G Wheeler's books, wherein Wheeler refers
to "dropping" the beer as a routine, but aerating only the most flocculant
yeasts.  So....I don't see any need for US brewers to use a term many
may find unnecessary or confusing.

Now, there are two claims Wheeler makes that I challenge, in my igorance.
By challenge I mean I'm soliciting your inputs.  These are: 1) Dropping
the beer leaves mutants behind, and 2) highly flocculant yeasts require
re-aeration to restimulate their regeneration.

In item 1), Wheeler is implying mutants precipitate faster or to a higher
degree than the primary, desired strain.  Is there a basis to this?  Again,
in my ignorance of yeast, I can see no reason to believe the mutants are
any more likely to precipitate.  Are most mutants a particular class, e.g., 
respiratory deficient types, and is there a reason they drop out first or
to a greater degree?  I would like to hear the explanation.

In item 2), I see no connection between flocculation levels and oxygen
depletion.  Well sure, a highly flocculant yeast will deplete the available
local oxygen, and leave itself in a highly oxygen-depleted region.  However,
given you initially oxygenate to some initial "sufficient" level, the needed
oxygen is still in solution and only needs to be made available to the yeast
by mixing the stew--getting the yeast dispersed into an oxygen-bearing 
region
of the liquid.

This raises another question: shouldn't this be done prior to the yeast 
going
anaerobic?  IOW, I think Wheeler is describing a scenario where the yeast
has flocculated strongly and has gone anaerobic, THEN he re-aerates it.
To me you would really rather keep the yeast de-flocced (not defrocked)
until all the dissolved oxygen has been used, then let it do what it will.
Finally, does any of this nonsense have anything to do with a clear beer?


The KGB (Korzonas-Garetz Bru-ha)
 --------------------------------

Now *this* is the thread that will not die.

>From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
>Subject: Garetz's Book

>Many, many unsuspecting homebrewers have bought the book and have brewed 
with
>the formulas that Garetz published and they have brewed overhopped beer 
with
>them.  Even experts among us were forced to dump batches as a result...
>...All the disclaimers in the world did not protect these brewers from the
>waste of ingredients and time

When I brew from any recipe published anywhere I usually feel it's a crap
throw, to some degree.  I've used Miller's recipes for Scottish ale and
ended up with colorless, flavorless brew resembling Coors Light more than
any Scottish ale.  In addition, brewers have written at length about their
efficiencies in terms of Miller's (extract yields) and only one person I've
ever heard from has attained those yields.  This means that by using 
Miller's
data only, the brewer may get a 30 OG instead of the desired 40 OG. I also
see recipes at length in Papazian (and elsewhere) that call out water
treatments (this much gypsum, that much salt, etc) that I know will have
different results for me than they did for the author.  Do I go into a
flaming fit of rage and claim "worthless"?  I think not.  I see an
opportunity to do some lab work and provide (hopefully) more useful info
to the community--in this tiny area.

I see no difference with hop recommendations, nor do I see why I should
expect the results to be any more deterministic given the state of the
practice.  This is why I keep lab notes, and use them as guidance for
followup work.  None of these sources of information has saved me from
wasted ingredients by being absolutely repeatable.  I now know that (for me) 
Miller's extraction numbers are rough guidance, and that my lab notes are
very good guidance.  Garetz' disclaimer (as quoted in a recent HBD) seems
like far more than I've seen explicity stated in other sources.

As for Al's suggested disclaimer he says Garetz should have used in his 
book,
this is just a blatant, sarcastic, personal attack that serves no purpose 
whatsoever.  My OPINION is such sarcasm would fit in better on the alt.beer
forum.  Lurkers who remain silent while personal (and apparently unfounded)
attacks are *repeatedly* made, yet cry out when they see the words "orgasm"
or "pissed-off" used, should maybe wake up.

With that said, I'm certainly glad someone is working to *make* hop
utilization deterministic and well-founded.  That's great, and it's
greatly appreciated--as are Al's selfless responses to all the questions
fielded here on the HBD.  I plan to spend quite a chunk of change to
get better yield numbers for use by folks with RIMS systems comparable
to my own--we be just a bunch of heroes, eh?

Kirk R Fleming
 -flemingkr at afmcfafb.fafb.af.mil
 -BEER: It's not just for breakfast anymore.



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1664, 02/22/95