FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  beer engine & Starting a supply store. (c-amb)
  Hot Break (James Manfull)
  Getting pumped up! (Steve Peters (919) 405-3678)
  RE: Address updates--simpler question (uswlsrap)
  Well Water and Chlorine (Bob Adamczyk ph2745)
  Is early masking of bacterial infection possible? (Ken Willing)
  superb gas products (chris campanelli)
  Wort Chillers/Beer Bread/"Jurassic Beer" (ChipShabazian)
  barley/wit/wells/bottling (A. J. deLange)
  Kegging Lagers/CO2 in the fridge ("Timothy P. Laatsch)
  Acid in Mash?/RIMS Temp Ctrl/Pumps/Eliminate Sparge? (Kirk R Fleming)
  Z compressed files/Bleach sanitizer (Philip Gravel)
  Cancel subscription (CAPTAIN_KIRK)
  so cal brewers' co-op;beans in ale (PGILLMAN)
  Yeast experiment (TPuskar)
  Flag Porter (G.A.Cooper)
  plastic Sankey kegs? ("Charles S. Jackson")
  St. Patrick's day in Vancouver ("KEVIN FONS Q/T BPR X7814)
  Motorized Mash Mixing Update ("Diane S. Put")
  Portland Beer Attractions (MatthewX G Stickler)
  Dropping (Craig Amundsen)
  Open Home Brew Store (molloy)
  historical recipes (PGILLMAN)
  In defense of Grainger... (" Patrick G. Babcock")
  Chilling 2 pot boils: answers (Joseph_Fleming_at_GSA-2P__2)
  Re:General Introduction ("M. Smith")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 07 Mar 95 17:33:20 +0700
From: c-amb at math.utah.edu
Subject: beer engine & Starting a supply store.

Howdy All,

First a question and then a reply to everyone who asked about starting 
a supply store.

Has anyone built, or even thought of building, their own beer-engine? 
It would seem to be quite simple, in principle at least.  Moreover, does
anyone have a line on where one could purchase a new beer-engine?  I 
imagine that there are no sources in the U.S. so any British sources
would be greatly appreciated.

I received many requests for info about starting a supply
store.  So, I figured I would reply publicaly. I also made a 
bone-head mistake and deleted several peoples requests for info.  
Many of you asked who the wholesalers are.  They can all easily be
found in Zymurgy and/or B.T.  I won't send anyone a list of who these 
wholesalers are.  To be blunt, if you have reached an obstacle in 
simply finding out who to buy your goods from then you simply have 
not put enough thought into the whole idea.  Starting a business of any 
kind involves a whole lot of research and planning.  You should work 
out a business plan to see if you can make money doing this in your 
area.  I will say that this has  been the most rewarding and exausting 
project I have ever undertaken.  I have had one day off in the last 
10 weeks and put in over 60 hours a week.  I look forward to someday 
being able to pay myself for all these hours and eventually hiring 
someone else.  However, I get to meet some of the most friendly people 
in town.  People who are excited about brewing and want your help and 
support.  It is also very rewarding to be so intimately involved with
your own success.  Everything I do is for me and my customers.  There
is no "evil boss" or corporation to worry about.  It is much more
personal.
So, to anyone thinking about going into the supply business, do your
research and if everything looks good go for it.  Be prepared to 
lose money for quite some time and know before hand how much capital you
are going to need to get started (it can be substatial).

Good luck to anyone crazy enough to try it,
Mark Alston
(c-amb at math.utah.edu)
(801) 581-8102
The Beer Nut, inc.
1200 S. State
SLC, Ut.


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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 16:41:27 -0500
From: jxm64 at psu.edu (James Manfull)
Subject: Hot Break

 I am an extract/infusion mash brewer.  In The Homebrewer's Companion, C.P.
suggests siphoning the hot wort off of the hot break into a
second brewpot.  Then he suggests bringing it to a boil again for
sanitation.  He never mentions what a five minute sanitizing boil will do
to hop aroma.  Obviously throwing aroma hops in during the short second
boil would defeat the whole process.  So far my process has been to cool my
wort by putting the brewpot in an icewater bath, then strain it into the
primary through a kitchen strainer and cheesecloth.( all boiled).  I don't
use any other method to remove trub.
Any suggestions?  such as:
 -skip the whole process, just cool and strain as always.
 -skip the second boil
 -add no aroma hops during the boil, then strain into fermenter through a
layer of fresh hops after the
      second boil.

Does anybody simply (concentrated worts only) siphon hot wort into cool
water in fermenter using a copper cane and scrub pad to keep the hot break
out? Wouldn't this minimize HSA and be the simplest thing?

James Manfull
State College, Pa



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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 17:04:32 EST
From: peters at rastaban.rtp.semi.harris.com (Steve Peters (919) 405-3678)
Subject: Getting pumped up!


"Brian Ellsworth, 203-286-1606" describes a method of recirculating
his chiller water using a pump.  I have one of those el-cheapo $150.00 
12'X3' swimming pools in my back yard (that size is really all ya need 
to cool down on a hot summer day anyway).  My brother and I built a 
counterflow chiller (1/2" copper, 1" vinyl outer hose), and connect the 
chiller input to the output of the pool filter.  The water output from the 
chiller, obviously, gets hosed back into the pool.  This way the entire 
pool is used as a "chiller water reservoir", plus hey, free heated pool.   
We will need to add a secondary icebath coil in the summer, but probably 
would want that even if we were using tap water.  We can chill and fill 
10 gals wort in about 20mins (with pool temp at < 50F). So if you're on 
the fence about buying that kiddie pool, here's one more compelling reason 
to do it.

Steve Peters  (peters at rtp.semi.harris.com)

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 17:06:28 EST
From: uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
Subject: RE: Address updates--simpler question                            

Regarding my question about current club addresses, let me clarify.
No, you don't have to go hunt up a ZYMURGY.  If you are getting a newsletter
and competition announcements from the Madison Homebrewers, we obviously have
some sort of address from you.  If it's getting to the person you want to have
receive it, then we have the right address.  If it requires P.O. forwarding to
get to you, send us the current address and keep us up-to-date on changes. If
you're not getting one and you used to (or you'd like to receive information
from us), send us a current club address.

Thanks,

Now go have a beer,

Bob Paolino / Disoriented in Badgerspace / uswlsrap at ibmmail.com
"If I could see...if I could See all the symbols, unlock what
they mean, Maybe I could, maybe I could, maybe I Could meet the
artists, and get to know them personally."-Those crazy WPG boys

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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 17:10:13 EST
From: adamczyk at bns101.bng.ge.com (Bob Adamczyk ph2745)
Subject: Well Water and Chlorine

Robin Hanson brought up the concerns about brewing with well water
and chlorinating home wells...

My experience with my well (in upstate New York, out in the weeds)
is that well water is probably the most desirable water for brewing.

However, there are considerations !

You should have your well tested for bacteriological contaminants.
Usually, this can be done quite cheaply, either via county or state
health departments, or (if you want to remain incognito or just
want to avoid government in general) check the Yellow Pages under 
Laboratories-Testing.  You can usually get a bacteriological screen
for under $20.  They usually check for e. coli, and provide a
count of the little buggers per ml, etc.  Presence of e. coli usually
indicates fecal contamination of some form ... ... ...

But, make sure that the faucet you take the sample from has been
sufficiently sterilized (flamed etc.).
Also, run the water for some time to get fresh water direct
from the well.  Use the same care that you
would take when making a yeast starter.

Sometimes, small amounts of e. coli just require a chlorine flush
of the well. (local authorities, extension offices etc recommend a
chlorine bleach solution, but I wonder how Iodophor would work?  I
HATE chlorine !)  

The funny smell in your well might be due to sulfur compounds, etc.
There are some wells here in upstate NY which are great producers of
sulfur, iron sulfides, etc. and some others which have a small amount
of odor seasonally (like after a heavy rain or snowmelt). A lot depends
on the depth of the well (shallow wells utilize what is called
surface water).

If you're really into water analysis, though, you might spend the
extra $$$ and get a good profile on mineral content, etc which
some homebrewers are really curious. -- Talk to the lab guy and tell
them you're a brewer and need to know more.  It might really spark
his interest instead of the usual water tests for mortgage closings etc.

Sorry for all the bandwidth this took.

Bob Adamczyk

Port Crane NY
adamczyk at bns101.bng.ge.com

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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:49:58 +1000 (EST)
From: Ken Willing <kwilling at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>
Subject: Is early masking of bacterial infection possible?

I'm wondering if it's possible to have a bacterial infection which gets
started during the chilling and/or lag, but which doesn't declare itself
(perceptibly) until later in the ferment.  I had an unexpectedly long lag
time (18 hours) for the current brew (in very warm weather, yet), so I
tasted the wort as bubbling started, and detected zero difference from its
flavor at pitching time.  However, several days later and near the end of
the ferment, there has been and is a fairly pronounced DMS/[+H2S?]
odor/flavor, i.e. canned corn verging on rotten vegetables, though this has
been diminishing somewhat in the last day or two.  Quite high DMS is
characteristic of the malt used (Australian "Franklin", the closest we have
here to Pilsener quality), but the current ferment seems to be producing and
retaining higher DMS than it should.  I'd like to be able to rule out a
(non-fatal) infection if possible.  Any opinions about the scenario
described?  Thanks 

Ken Willing
<kwilling at laurel.ocs.mq.edu.au>


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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 17:09 CST
From: akcs.chrisc at vpnet.chi.il.us (chris campanelli)
Subject: superb gas products

Superb Gas Product Company does mail order.  The last time I looked they
have a free catalog.  I recommend the 16-20E (I own two).  The can be
reached at PO Box 99, Belleville, IL 62222 (618) 234-6169.

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 95 16:33:00 PST
From: ChipShabazian <ChipS at 800sw.com>
Subject: Wort Chillers/Beer Bread/"Jurassic Beer"



Well,

I have lurked in the dark for a few months now, and have very much enjoyed
the advice/debates on HBD.  Now I finally have something to add:

Charles S. Jackson asks:
<In the interest of reducing water consumption in wort chilling operations I
intend to build a
recirculating immersion chilling thingy, RICT(tm)......>

Being in California, I get allot of flak from non-brewer friends about
wasting water with my immersion chiller, so my response is to build a
counterflow chiller and use the run-off for my next batch.  Since I am
building a gravity system based on 3 sankey kegs, I can just save my run-off
water in my hot liquor back and use it for mash-in and sparge.  Make sure to
use food grade hose around the copper (RV Hose works just fine).

++++++++++

Art Ward asks for a recipe for beer bread

Here is an excellent easy to make recipe I got from the owner of Santa Rosa
Brewing Company:

3    tsp  Sugar
3    Cup  Self Rising Flour
12   oz   Beer

Mix ingredients and let dough rise for 20 minutes.  Bake for 70 minutes at
350 degrees

+++++++++++

Jeff Hewit asks about  "Jurassic Beer"

Flag Porter is indeed fermented from a yeast salvaged from a shipwreck in
the English Channel.  An English microbiologist cultivated the yeast and
isolated a pure strain, Then the original recipe was obtained and so began
Flag Porter.

The Norvig Ale is also truly brewed from an original recipe with the
original yeast (or at least the yeast it has evolved into today).

Michael Jackson did NOT play a part in bringing these beers to the U.S., but
rather Alan Eames did.

Personally I think the Flag Porter is an excellent beer, one of my favorite.
 I myself do not care much for the Norvig Ale, it is a little to bitter and
hoppy for my taste, but my girlfriend prefers it over the Flag Porter.

Woodstock Brewing Company is interested in importing exclusively beers that
have some history behind them, and a representative is currently over in
Europe talking to some brewers that have been recommended.  Because of this,
the beers are a little more pricey than anything imported en masse.

The reason there is no yeast sediment is because the beer IS filtered before
shipment to the U.S.  (I can't even get any yeast).

Woodstock Brewing Company started approximately 16 months ago while I was
visiting my father in Vermont.  He was looking for something to do since he
had recently retired (kinda) from the computer industry.  I suggested a
Micro-Brewery - with the obvious self serving thoughts.  About two months
later, my father called and said he had just read in the Wall Street Journal
that Micro-Breweries were a rapidly growing segment of the U.S. market.  He
eventually decided that importing was more profitable than brewing, but
wanted to do something different.  Charlie P. pointed him to Alan Eames, and
the Woodstock Brewing Company was born!!!!

I myself am NOT involved with the operations, but I wanted to set the record
straight about my relation.

Also,  If anyone is aware of historic beers, anywhere in the world, let me
know - I'm sure it would be worth at least a case from the first shipment
:^)

If anyone else has any questions, either E-Mail me privately or post on the
HBD and I will see what I can find out.

Chip Shabazian
chips at 800sw.com

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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 17:16:49 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: barley/wit/wells/bottling

m.marshburn/d202 at cgsmtp.comdt.uscg.mil asked
> Perled Barley - Can this stuff be ground, roasted and
> used in place of roast barley in stouts? Also can it be substituted for
> unmalted barley?

I don't see why not. The husk and aleurone layer are gone so that
contribution to filterbed formation and diastatic potential are
nil but there would be none of the latter in roasted barley anyway.
I'm probably wrong in this because of some tannin in the husk which
contributes to the flavor of roasted barley so please give it a shot and
let us know. Also, the barleys which are perled are doubtless not brewing
barleys.

> Belgian Wit - Is this a lager or an ale?
An ale.

>- I have a recipe of 4lbs DWC pils,
>4lbs raw wheat, 1/2lb rolled oats, 1oz coriander, grated rind from 2 oranges
>and 2 lemons, wyeast 3944 belgian white. The recipe doesn't go into any
>fermenting details. Does it sound authentic?

Yes. You will love it. My favorite homebrew! You can obtain the genuine Curacao
peel from Frozen wort (insert disclaimer). They have been advertising in the
classifieds part of Brewing Techniques or drop me e-mail and I'll find the
address/phone number.

>I've never mashed or lautered
>raw wheat, is there anything I should be particularly careful of?

Raw wheat is VERY hard. I have stripped the gears on a Glatt mill in processing
this stuff ( and relegated that mill to just grinding wheat - if I replaced the
gears they would just get destroyed again. The grain itself couples the rollers
sufficiently.

Raw wheat has LOTS of protein - you don't have the degradation that you do with
wheat malt which is high enough in protein content. I have used a decoction
mash identical to what Warner recommenrds in his German Wheat book with success
and have seen others post that they are doing similar things. Beware of a stuck
mash in the sparge i.e. get it going as quickly as possible and keep the grain
bed temperature up. Remember that there are many fewer husks in this grist than
in most and they are at the bottom anyway so that you don't need to worry so
much about tannin extraction if you sparge with hot (boiling) water.


Robin Hanson reports "that after a certain time [his well] water started to
"not smell so good" and asks if "It it safe to use well water.."

In this, and I though most, jurisdictions, an occupancy permit is not
issued until the well meets the county's standards for potability. Thus,
it is, by definition of MY GOVERNMENT safe. This does not mean that the
water is suitable brewing water. Mine would not be without an ion exchanger.
I suggest you get someone in to test your water to see what's in it. This
can usually be arranged for free if you are willing to listen to a sales
pitch on filters, exchangers, RO etc. It sounds as if you may need some
of this gadgetry.




John M. asks about pilsner bottling:
 >do you have special temperature controlled rooms to keep your precious
 >lager at the 'perfect' temperature throughout the bottling process?

Are you suggesting that lager brewers are anal, John? I don't think that
allowing the beer to warm up long enough to bottle would hurt it a bit.
I do the secondary/lagering in Cornelius kegs at near freezing and use
a counter pressure filler. I don't even take the keg out of the freezer
and chill the sterilized bottles before I fill them. This is done to prevent
fobbing when the cold beer hits the bottle.



pscott at cascades.cc.bellcore.com (p scott colligan) asks

>what the pressure of a newly filled 5lb CO2 canister should read.

It should read the saturated vapor pressure of carbon dioxide at the
temperature of the bottle. Some representative numbers:
35F  -  528 psig (i.e. near the "Order New Gas" range)
40F  -  568
50F  -  652
60F  -  748
70F  -  850
80F  -  970
87.8 - 1072

Above 87.6 it's a new ball game. Below this temperature the stuff is
a liquid. Above it, a gas so that the pressure increases linearly
with the (Kelvin) temperature (approximately).

If you keep your CO2 bottle at 70F, the gauge will read about 850 psig
as long as there is liquid in the bottle. When the liquid is all boiled
off the pressure will begin to drop. This is the best indication that it
is geting to be time for a refill.


Bob Bloodworth signs:

"Hopfen und Malz gehoeren in den Halz" which I'd make "Hops and Malt belong
in the neck". Is that right. Does it mean down the throat?

AJ



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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 21:06:34 -0400 (EDT)
From: "Timothy P. Laatsch <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>" <LAATSCH at kbs.msu.edu>
Subject: Kegging Lagers/CO2 in the fridge

Hello all,

A preliminary flavor test of my Munich Helles was very pleasantly 
surprising.  It was a single decoction step mash (40/60d/70 C), fermented at 
10 C with Wyeast Bohemian lager.  It's been in the refrigerator at 7 C for 
the past 2 weeks and I plan to age it a bit longer.  Unfortunately, I can't 
truly lager it at 0-2 C, because my refrigerator will not cool below 7 C.  
The flavor has still dramatically improved by aging at 7 C---I could easily 
drink it down now, but I'm trying to be patient.  The large percentage of 
German Munich malt, the decoction, and the Bohemian yeast make for a HUGE 
malty finish that lingers pleasantly.  

Back to the matter at hand...I will 
soon be kegging this batch, so I have a couple relevant questions.  My 
personal debate is priming vs. force carbonation---force carbonation would 
circumvent the necessity to add DME to my "all-grain" brew, but I have a 
couple problems.  Because I rent, I'm hesitant to cut a hole in my fridge for 
the CO2 line.  Can I just put the tank and regulator in the fridge with the 
keg?  If so, what special considerations need attention?  What pressure will 
give adequate carbonation for this type of beer at 45 F?  How long will it 
take to carbonate?  Alternately, if I decide to prime, should the brew be 
brought back up to a higher temperature briefly to kick-start my lager 
yeast?  I'm very interested in the "tank/regulator-in-the-fridge" issue 
because it would be nice to chill my kegged beers for dispensing.  Any help 
on this topic is truly appreciated.  Thanks and BREW ON!

Bones

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
	Timothy P. Laatsch               
	Graduate Student in Microbial Ecology/Bioremediation		    
	Michigan State University / W.K. Kellogg Biological Station
	Kalamazoo, MI	
	laatsch at kbs.msu.edu

	"...and your face looked like somethin' death brought with him
         in his suitcase..."----WZ
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 1995 19:26:57 -0700
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: Acid in Mash?/RIMS Temp Ctrl/Pumps/Eliminate Sparge?

 -Question to HBD RE: Using Acid vs Gypsum to Reduce Mash pH

During our last brew we used a product called Acid Blend (packaged 
by HD Carlson) to lower the pH of our sparge water.  It's a citric
and tartaric acid mix.  We were surprised that 1/2 tsp in nearly
4 gal of water lowered pH from about 7.8 to about 4.

I don't have a local water analysis but the water is very soft.
For brewing pale beers could we use this acid to lower the pH of
our *mash* as well vs using gypsum?  During our last brew we added
1 1/2 tsp of gypsum to about 7 1/2 gallons of mash liquor, with a
resulting pH change from 5.63 to only 5.58.  This was dissapointing,
and the difference could've been due to differences in sample 
temperature alone. We didn't want to add more, thinking our grain
bill was not providing the needed ions to lower the pH.


 -A RIMS Temperature Control Success Story

This last brew was made using the 3-keg system I've described before,
but with the addition of two features: silicone tubing throughout,
and a 3" bi-metal dial thermometer installed in the mash line.

The pipe coming out of our mash tank is terminated with a bronze 
union, providing a quick-disconnect to the thermometer/shut-off 
assembly.  The thermometer is one I described here before (HBD #nnnn).
This is the first time we have tried it with real wort, and the
results were nothing short of fantastic.

We recirculated through the new silicone tubing during this entire
mash.  As with the water-only testing I described here earlier, wort 
temperature could be raised at about 2.5-3F per minute.  When we 
did our first boost to 140F, we shut off the mash tank burner when 
the thermometer read exactly 136 (correcting for a known, linear 
error in the thermometer).  For the next 10 minutes, there was no 
perceptible change in the dial reading.  When we did detect a one 
degree lowering of the mash, the temperature could be raised with 
a 30-35 s burn.  In fact, my brewing partner would tend the burner 
while I carefully watched the thermometer.  He was able to raise 
the temperature exactly one degree simply by timing the burn with 
his wristwatch.

The second boost to 158F (Scottish Ale) went exactly as the first--
we shut the burner down (MECO) when the dial indicated 154F, and
there it stayed.  We did have to boost more frequently at the higher
temperatures, but we could still raise mash temperature *very*
predictably with 30-35 s burns for 1F corrections.  With an mash tank
insulator jacket we might cut the number of corrective burns in half.
To everyone who has trouble getting a decent temperature reading from
the mash, I want you to know  just how satisfying it is to see this
level of control, and to know that temperatures in the bed are uniform.

Finally, the silicone hoses worked great--we're happy to be rid of the
other ones.  This stuff is used for blood and pharmaceuticals, is steam
sterilizable, and is rated at 500F continuous duty.  At wort temps you
can hold it with bare hands, and it *does not kink* when hot.  It's 
polyester braid reinforced, so it can handle pressure too.  Only
drawback: about $8.60 per foot for 25 ft (5/8" ID).

An updated description our Brew Monster system will appear soon on 
The Brewery at http://alpha.rollanet.org, if you're interested in 
more details.


 -In HBD #1673 Don Put asks about pumps...

The Teel pump you referred to in the WW Grainger cat is the model 
we have used for a while now--two of them mounted on the frame 
that support our three kegs.  Grainger's stock No. 1P677.  We were 
able to find a retailer in town that sells anything listed in 
Graingers at the wholesale price.  The pump is actually rated to 
180F for pH values of from 5 to 9, and my feeling was it was 
probably good for higher temperatures, given the duty cycle of the 
system.  So far, no problems.  These pumps do like to be choked on 
the outlet side, however, not on the inlet side.  Another factor 
to consider is that the pump inlet/outlet openings are like those 
on an automobile water pump--no threads and they require 5/8" ID 
tubing (a cost consideration).  Good, fast pumps tho.  They are
designed for food service--fruit juices, etc., and have handled
large amounts of grain in the line quite well.  They open up easily
for cleaning, too.

 -In HBD #1674 Eamonn asks if we can blow off the sparge...

During our last brew we only prepped about 3 1/2 gal of sparge 
water duration was less than 10 minutes, pumping as slowly as we could.  
When we ran out of sparge water, we stopped sparging (simple rule).
The last runnings from the sparge clocked in at about 6 Plato--this
is *with* a 3 gal sparge!  Clearly this left some sugar in the 20 lbs
of grain (dry wt), how much I don't know.  But I'm confident that had
we not done a sparge at all, we would have left a lot of sugar in the
grains.  

Don't deteriorate your brewing process to accomodate the computer--use
the computer to improve the process.  IOW, automate those aspects you
think stand the most to gain.  A single flow rate knob that ensures the
flow rates of sparge water IN and mash liquor OUT are identical would be 
useful.  I have a hard time keeping the grain cover constant when trying
to fiddle with two ball valves (the worst possible valve to use for
controlling anything, BTW).  Stepper motor driven valves connected thru
flow-rate sensors to a single flow knob would be cool.
Kirk R Fleming
Patriot, Beer Punk
Colorado Springs CO


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Date: Wed, 8 Mar 95 21:57 CST
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Z compressed files/Bleach sanitizer


===> William G.Garrison askes about decompressing .Z files

>Perhaps someone out there can direct me to the "Uncompress" utility for .z
>downloadable files. Trying to download from ftp.stanford.edu and can't find
>it on their system.

If you leave the .Z off of the file name when you make the download
request, the file will automatically be decompressed before it is sent.

>Also, what program is needed to view the .jpg image files?

There should be JPEG viewers and .Z decompress programs at oak.oakland.edu
or ftp.cica.indiana.edu

===> Eamonn McKernan asks about replacing the sanitizing solution:

>Chlorine evaporates over time. Really? How quickly? I keep 6 gal of chlorine
>and water solution in an uncapped carboy. I rack it to vessels that need
>sanitizing, let it soak, then rack it back. I've been using the same solution
>for weeks. How much longer is it good for before I should mix it anew?

The rule of thumb that I'd use is that if I can't smell the chlorine,
I'd change out the sanitizing solution.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel                                 pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 1995 23:21:09 -0500 (EST)
From: CAPTAIN_KIRK at delphi.com
Subject: Cancel subscription

Please cancel my subscription.

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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 01:59:54 -0800 (PST)
From: PGILLMAN at POMONA.EDU
Subject: so cal brewers' co-op;beans in ale

i am interested in starting a homebrewers' co-op in southern california
(i am in the la area, but would make it as big as possible) in order to
allow brewers to purchase ingredients direct at wholesale prices,
so if there is any interest in the area, pls write to me
phil
pgillman at pomona.edu

also, on the subject of beans in beer-ie the porter found in the english
channel, this is not unlikely, for as Clive La Pense
channel, this is not unlikely, for as Clive La Pensee reports in his
"historical companion to house brewing" an ale know as Mum-ale that 
originated in Brunswick in 1492 and was still popular in london almost
two centuries later contained wheat malt, oat malt, and beans-
it was reportedly casked for two years, and "a sea voyage greatly improved
the beer" so there you have it.
phil

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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 09:48:18 -0500
From: TPuskar at aol.com
Subject: Yeast experiment

In an attempt to evaluate the difference of two different yeasts on a batch
of beer, I conducted a split batch experiment.  The recipe was a sort of
amber ale.  It contained
3 lb light DME
3 lb amber DME
1 ld dextrine
1 lb Munich
0.5 lb Crystal 10L
0.5 lb crystal 60L

Used a typical partial mash schedule.  Added hops as follows:
1 oz Chinook at 60 min
1 ox Mt Hood at 30 min
1 oz Mt Hood at 15 min

After cooling the batch was diluted to 6 gal and split between two 3 gal
fermentors.  One was pitched with Wyeast American the other with Wyeast
London.  Primary fermentation took place at 65-68F in an unheated basement.
 OG was 1.050   After 5 days they were both rached to secondaries at same
temp.  Gravities were both about 1.012  Bottled after 4 more days.  Gravity
didn't change much.

While final judgement of the experiment will wait for a few weeks, one
curious observation was made.  A sample of the American batch was much
hoppier tasting than the London batch.  The difference was real and perceived
both by me and a friend.  I expected a difference in mouth feel, body
etc--but not hoppiness.  It will be interesting to see if it persists
throughout the conditioning phase.

Any comments would be welcome.
Tom Puskar

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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 12:26:11 +0000 (GMT)
From: G.A.Cooper at greenwich.ac.uk
Subject: Flag Porter

There have been some recent comments about Flag Porter, some of which I can
confirm from first hand knowledge.

Thomas Aylesworth says:
>The yeast for the Flag Porter came from a bottle that was found in
>a ship recovered from the English Channel.  The bottle was taken
>to a lab, and they discovered it was beer which still contained
>viable yeast.  They managed to culture it.

Correct. The ship-wreck is estimated to date from around 1825. The work
in isolating the yeast was carried out by Dr Keith Thomas (and colleagues)
who now runs Brewlab from the University of Sunderland. (Keith is reasonably
well known; he writes for "What's Brewing" and has judged at recent GABFs)
In fact he had a number of attempts. The first bottle was opened and 
tasted at a porter seminar in London - it tasted of sea-water (Yes I did 
taste it). No viable yeast were found. Subsequent bottles proved more
successful and yeast has now been isolated on at least two separate 
occasions. Tests show them to be *probably* the same yeast, so he is now 
confident that he didn't pick up a spurious wild yeast.

>                                               Eames also claimed that
>the beer used a "traditional 1850" porter recipe - but really
>didn't go into much detail on how he got this.

Keith took advice from Dr John Harrison. It was based on a recipe from 
the Whitbread's Brewery Records of 1850, but changed to use 'modern' malts,
for example Flag Porter contains some crystal malt whereas the original 
didn't. Also the OG was reduced to 54 (for marketing reasons I suppose).
Recipe 52 in Durden Park's Old British Beer book is based on the same
original recipe.

>                                                    He did claim that
>his research had convinced him that the original porter was made
>with beans as part of the grist

Not true. There were some beers (probably much earlier than 1850) that had
beans in the grist, but not this one.

>                                         - this was the only part of his
>story that I found highly dubious, although I suppose it is possible.

You were right to be sceptical

>He did say that the Flag Porter did not contain beans

The first Flag porters were brewed in the plant of the Pitfield Brewery,
which was a micro-brewery in Pitfield Street London EC1, now closed but
still continues as the Beer Shop, selling imported beers and homebrew
supplies. 

Initially they didn't use the isolated yeast - that was a later
refinement, as was the use of "organically grown" barley. It is now brewed
by a larger brewery (can't remeber who) but, I believe, still uses only
organically grown ingredients. I am not convinced that the special yeast
is the only one used, so I shall try and remember to ask Keith. 

Hope that claers things up

Geoff

 

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Date:     Thu, 9 Mar 95 9:01:03 CST
From: "Charles S. Jackson" <sjackson at ftmcclln-amedd.army.mil>
Subject:  plastic Sankey kegs?


Holy ABS batman!

     My brother, a fledgling brewer, was recently visiting me and salavating
over my brewing equipment.  He returned to his sunshine state and to set
about finding a sankey.  He called a junk shop and they had "several", but
when he went to buy one he found them all to be of black plastic (abs?)
construction.
He said one had "Lite" printed/stamped on it and so I assume it to be a Miller
keg.  Is this (plastic sankey) the wave of the future or a thing of the
past?

Steve
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Brewing beer is far more exciting when it is both a hobby AND a felony!
                                                The Alabama Outlaw

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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 09:25:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: "KEVIN FONS Q/T BPR X7814 <KFONS at china.qgraph.com>" <KFONS at china.qgraph.com>
Subject: St. Patrick's day in Vancouver

I will be in Vancouver on St. Patrick's day, can anyone suggest a good place to
go and celebrate?  Also, are there any good Brewpubs or just Pubs in the
Whistler/Bacomb area?  Private e-mail is fine.

TIA, 
 Kevin
===========================================================================
Kevin Fons                  <kfons at qgraph.com>      Quad/Tech International
Industrial/Systems Engineer                      Div. of Quad/Graphics Inc.
Sussex, Wisconsin 53089 USA            "Worldwide Sales, Worldwide Support"
Phone: (414)246-7814				       	 FAX: (414)246-5160
===========================================================================
Standard disclaimer applies...


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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 10:31:04 -0800 (PST)
From: "Diane S. Put" <dput at cello.gina.calstate.edu>
Subject: Motorized Mash Mixing Update


>From *Don* Put:

>rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen) wrote:

>Have the results of the constant stirred mash ever been posted?

Hmm . . . I don't remember, but I believe I'm the one you're referring
to here.  I've now done 11 batches with constant, motorized stirring 
(all of them 10 gallon brew lengths with grain bills ranging from 20-30lbs) 
and I can state pretty unequivocally that I'll never just mix by hand again, 
at least in my system.  Most of these brews were done with friends who lurk 
around here and perhaps they could join in and give their comments as well.  

>Did it increase astrigency, extract rate?

I have found no increase in tannin extraction, which I've never had 
a problem with anyway (again, I monitor my pH throughout the mashing and 
sparging processes and I've done this for so long that I know where it will 
be with different mash bills, i.e., light or dark beers).  As for extract 
rate, I've always gotten very good extraction even before the motorized 
mixer (usually between 88-92% of theoretical maximum) and I haven't really 
seen any huge increases as a result of the motorized mixing.  

>How was the beer?

Gone ;-)  I believe all my beers are pretty tasty, but, hey, I'm biased!
I also brew for myself and my tastes and I like to tinker with recipes
(must be my genetic Belgian inclination toward experimentation).  

don (dput at cello.gina.calstate.edu)

PS - I'm currently working on a small-scale, glycol-cooled jacketed fermenter 
for my brewery.  I want to control fermentation temperatures more precisely 
than is possible with just air cooling, whether it be refrigerated or not.





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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 95 11:07:13 PST
From: MatthewX G Stickler <MatthewX_G_Stickler at ccm2.hf.intel.com>
Subject: Portland Beer Attractions


Text item: Text_1

On March 8th Steve from Kalamazoo writes:

>Where does one go in or around Portland, OR for "beer" related 
>entertainment?

The city streets are divided by the Willamette river (East/West) 
and Burnside Ave (North/South).

The Bridgeport BrewPub is nice. They always have a couple of cask-
conditioned ales on tap and most of the regular product line on
CO2 (Blue Heron, Pintail, Coho). Pretty good wort-crust pizza by 
the slice as well. Location: 1313 NW Marshall. Its an old converted 
warehouse.

The Portland Brewing co has a real fancy place with lots of copper
in the NW industrial area. Their McTarnihans' Scottish Ale took first 
place one year at the GABF. The address is: 2730 NW 31st Street.

Widmer Brewing serves their beers at the Heathman's B.Molch Bakery on 
SW Salmon Street (Behind the Heathman Hotel and across Park Ave).

The Horse Brass is an English-style Pub with good pub grub and many 
micros on tap. Location: 4534 SE Belmont.

Produce row is another interesting place. 204 SE Oak.

If you want to watch a "B" run movie while you drink Beer try either 
the Mission Theater and Pub (1634 NW Glisan) or the Bagdad 
theater (3702 SE Hawthorn).

The Pilsner Room serves food and Full-Sail ales are brewed on the 
premises. Its down next to the river on the west side.

Enjoy

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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 14:46:45 -0600 (CST)
From: Craig Amundsen <amundsen at biosci.cbs.umn.edu>
Subject: Dropping

Just when you thought the dropping thread was dead...

I recently acquired Fix's _Principles of Brewing Science_. In reading through 
it I came across something that may be part of the theory behind dropping the
beer/wort part way through the active fermentation. If you will cast your 
thoughts back to the beginning of the dropping thread, you will no doubt
recall that someone (I've forgotten whom (or maybe who)) quoted an author
that stated that one of the reasons to drop the beer is to get the beer away
from mutant yeast that accumulate at the bottom of the ferementer. This 
seemed strange to me. Why would a mutant yeast be more likely to sink than
a non-mutant cell? It turns out that yeast petite mutants (they have mutations
that mess up mitochondrial function, btw) are also highly floculant (sp?) and
have unfortunate fermentation characteristics. So, if you drop the beer, you
really are getting the beer away from nasty mutants. 

Craig Amundsen                                     amundsen at molbio.cbs.umn.edu 

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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 16:31:57 -0500
From: molloy at tcpcs3.dnet.etn.com
Subject: Open Home Brew Store

 I am looking into opening a home brew supply store in my home town.
This is no lame idea, I am very serious. I would like to get any input
and or information that I can.
Private mail surely.

 Thanks. P. Molloy
         Kalamazoo MI

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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 14:52:43 -0800 (PST)
From: PGILLMAN at POMONA.EDU
Subject: historical recipes

i am in search of historical american recipies (colonial etc-)
if any one knows of any good books on the subject, or has any of their own
(full mash) pls send them to me-
much thanks-
phil:  pgillman at pomona.edu

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Date: Thu, 09 Mar 1995 17:53:30 EST
From: " Patrick G. Babcock" <usfmchql at ibmmail.com>
Subject: In defense of Grainger...                                        

*** Resending note of 03/09/95 17:08
* Man's mind, stretched by a new idea, never goes back to its *
* original dimension.                 - Oliver Wendell Holmes *
Subject: In defense of Grainger...

 -=> In HBD 1675, Bryan P. Dawe discusses Grainger's magnetic drive motor
specs. ..

All of Bryan's comments are valid. The only (weak) defense I can offer
Grainger on their spec is as follows:

Carbonic acid implies carbonation (_generally_, neither whiskey nor wine are
carbonated. Don't flame on champagnes or lambruscos, please. I did say
generally :-). Carbon dioxide has a tendency to come out of solution with
agitation as the solution's temperature increases. This carbon dioxide being
released from the beer has potential to build up in the pump's head, causing
it to cavitate. Most magnetic drive pumps require liquid in the head as
lubricant to prevent damage to the impellor. Hence, the concern with beer.
Can't imagine, though, why they think it is OK to 72F.

Since we generally don't pump finished, conditioned beer it isn't a concern.
But, of course, Grainger doesn't produce for us. Though their products are
available for us, they are predominantly designed and sold for commercial
applications. I could imagine BudMillerCoors et al. pumping finished beer
around (*ShUdDeR*).

Another thing we engineers tend to do is overdevelop our FMEAs (Failure Mode
Engineering Analysis). I think this was done with the Grainger pump.
Cavitation due to collection of CO2 in this manner IS possible, even if only
remotely.

Brew On!
Patrick (Pat) G. Babcock
usfmchql at ibmmail.com
(313)33-73657 (V)
(313)59-42328 (F)


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Date: Wed, 08 Mar 95 15:14:48 EST
From: Joseph_Fleming_at_GSA-2P__2 at ccgate1.gsa.gov
Subject: Chilling 2 pot boils: answers

     I've got some feedback on chilling for those who use two pots to brew. 
  Thanks to Tom Clifton, Mark Evans, Vance Sabbe and Jim Frazier for their 
  help.
  
  - hop the pot containing more wort, and add the secondary wort when       
     evaporation permits - if evaporation doesn't permit, an ice bath will  
     chill the small amount of wort quickly allowing the chiller to be used 
     on the primary pot.
  
  - Stagger the start times so that the second pot will finish the boil     
     period when the first pot is cooled.
  
  - Daisy chain 2 chillers - I had worried about the reduced cooling effect 
     of the second chiller, but Vance points out that in practice as the    
     first pot cools the temp of the water going into the second chiller    
     will also drop.  He cites a 30 min chill to 65F.
  
     Me?  I'm still working on the all-grain plans.  Had thought of using a 
  counterflow chiller to better the chill time and minimize the second 
  pot's exposure, but now think 25' of fully immersed copper in the main 
  and an ice-bath on the smaller pot might be a comfortable compromise of 
  getting a good cold break, minimizing DMS production time and having a 
  casual brew day (i.e. can chase down the kids if necessary).  Are there 
  any comments about how adding the spare 1/5th of unhopped/unfined wort 
  might degrade the brew?
     It seems there are a few 2 pot brewers out there - and with a 5 gal 
  pot  at  $15 per vs $100+ for 8 gal I can see why!  Please feel free to post 
  any tips, experiences, or - every homebrewer's favorite - gadget info.
     Thanks to all who wrote...
  
                                   Joe - (JOSEPH.FLEMING at GSA.GOV)


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Date: Thu, 9 Mar 1995 20:38:48 -0500 (EST)
From: "M. Smith" <engmasx at gsusgi2.Gsu.EDU>
Subject: Re:General Introduction



Hermes G. Saad writes about his first mead:
<SNIP>
>...its been five and a half weeks and theres CO2 coming out of the 
>airlock 8 times a minute...

This is not that strange, especially if you have a lot of honey in the 
batch (over 12 pounds per 5 gallons).  In fact, that's probably right on 
schedule.  Mead fermentations are measured in months, not weeks.  When 
the gravity is a 1.000 or lower (yes, lighter than water) and 
fermentation has stopped dead for a while, then bottling time is near, 
and then you get to wait for as long as you can stand it (a month? six 
months? a year?) to drink it.  And when you do, you'll be glad you did.  
It gets better every time.

John O.     










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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1677, 03/11/95