FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  CO2 Gas Bags/Sight Glasses (Kirk R Fleming)
  Ice Beer (Phil Hitchman)
  mercury FAQ? (mitch)
  Widgets ( Brian Wilson)
  a real old thread ("Lee A. Menegoni")
  Diacetyl rests (Rich Larsen)
  The ideal gas law... (PHIL=MEYERS)
  Subject: Mini-Keg Survey Results (PHIL=MEYERS)
  Bombs Away! (kpnadai)
  UK vs US Crystal Malts (Glen_Baldridge)
  Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #1745 (May 31, 1995) (LimaWiskey)
  Thermodynamics Digest (RWaterfall)
  Brews to Style (Ken Schroeder)
  Ice, ice, baby. (Russell Mast)
  What temp to ferment Wheinstephen WY 3068? (Brian Pickerill)
  Re: nitrosamines (Jeff Frane)
  Thermodynamics Digest (Larry Bristol                 )
  Re: ice beer (Dennis Davison)
  Scottish Ale (barber eric stephen)
  ice beer? (Robin Hanson)
  Pet Peeves, Con't. (Don Rudolph)
  Starters & Ageing (Beersgood)
  Scrubbing air (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
  Oregon/Washington/Idaho--Regional Competition (Glenn Tinseth)
  Help with Silica Gel (Jim R. Fortes)
  Re: Belgian yeasts (Steve Zabarnick)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 23:35:05 -0600
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: CO2 Gas Bags/Sight Glasses

#1751 We Just Won't Let the CO2 Thread Die.  Larry says:
- --------------------------------------------------------
> - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at 850psi/75F and another at 
> 500psi/45F and we put a line between them.  Will gas flow from one to 
> the other? No - they are at equilibrium.

The argument here is: two closed systems, each at equilibrium, when
connected form a new single closed system which will be at equilibrium.
No way.  The two systems are EACH at equilibrium, but not wrt one another.
There's a 350psi differential and I suggest yes, flow will happen--it
doesn't matter *how* the differential got there, be it from a temperature
difference or not.  It's still there.  A transverse membrane in the pipe
would feel the same differential regardless of the temperatures on either
side of it (he wildly speculates, with an air of pretentious authority).

> How come CO2 at 17psi/75F does not "flow" to the keg where the CO2 is 
> only at 10psi/45F?  Because these are equivalent pressures.

I say there *is* flow between them, and if your empirical results indicate
otherwise, I say there MUST be a one-way valve in the system somewhere
between the low-pressure guages used to measure each pressure.  I still 
see no way to maintain a pressure gradient in a short line between two
tanks no matter what you do to the temperature of the tanks. [However, you
*can* keep the keg connected to the regulator with the keg at a higher
pressure than the regulator setting...it's not an open system internally
but contains a back-flow preventer (so I'm told).]

Getting back to beer:

> In order to achieve the desired amount of carbonation, if your CO2 is 
> at 45F you want one pressure, and if it is at 75F, you want another.

In both cases the pressure AND temperature of the gas *at the surface of 
the beer* are identical over time, given the regulator gauge is accurate at 
both temperatures.  If the beer temperature is identical in both cases,
you have two identical, steady-state systems from the perspective of the
CO2-beer interface.

Neither my thermo nor gas dynamics texts contain anything remotely useful
(or any mention of "equivalent pressures") so until I get my keg gauge 
in and do some experiments, I'll concede any further argument (but will 
of course continue to look for some way to get in the last word).

#1751 Keith Royster asks about sight glass materials:
- ----------------------------------------------------_
> I read about placing a metal tube over the plastic tube...I like this
> idea, but wonder if the metal tubing will be enough of a heat barrier
> ...to protect 'normal' hardware type plastic tubing

The tubing I used to build the sight glass you refer to is the white
polyethylene stuff sold at hardware stores for icemaker feed line.
This tubing softens markedly at kettle temps, but yes, the aluminum
sleeve serves to maintain the tubing shape and shields it from kettle
radiation. The liquid in the tube is out away from the kettle and 
free to conduct heat away on all sides, and is small in mass. This helps 
keep the sight glass liquid temp well below the stuff in the kettle.

Two suggestions based on several boils conducted with this sight glass:

1) small diameter tubing such as mine (3/8" OD) tends to trap bubbles 
during the boil and the bubbles are annoying and must be watched-for to 
ensure accurate readings, and

2) The polyethylene tubing is somewhat opaque--it's easy to read when 
boiling that 10W40 crankcase lube you call a "stout", but a bit 
challenging when doing a light ale...then there's the following:

3) "Polyethylene is noted for stress cracking when used in conjuction
    with many types of barbed fittings.  To eliminate the potential of
    stress cracking, it is recommended that only push-to-connect or
    compression type fittings are used."  NewAge Industries catalog.

My glass was built for about $8 on short notice...I'll replace it 
someday with either a real sight glass (see the McMaster-Carr catalog) 
or one built using crystal clear PVC (or Teflon) tubing sold for that
purpose.  A place called NewAge Industries in PA (215-657-3151) sells
both of these: one product called "Clear 40" is a sched 40 PVC described 
as "highly corrosion resistant as well as transparent...used in 
chemical, pharmaceutical and food plants as well as laboratories and 
hospitals".  Sold in 10ft lengths only, but they'll cut it to ship it.
Said to be formulated to FDA standards for food contact. In 1/4", 3/8", 
1/2", 3/4" and larger IDs up to 6". Hardness of 81 on the Shore D.

The clear Teflon tube is just outrageous for heavy weight stuff (for 
example a 5/8" ID 3/4" OD tube is 10.40 per foot, 25 ft minimum--you'd 
need Spencer to order in bulk on this one, AND pick up the tab :-).

No interest in NewAge nor have I ordered from them.
KRF Colorado Springs


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 9:21:17 BST
From: phitchma at mpc-uk.com (Phil Hitchman)
Subject: Ice Beer

Steve brown writes:

> I don't know if any one has notice the prevalance of 'ice' beers in
> the local bars.
Yes, worrying isn't it !

> i have tried to make an 'ice' beer, with not much success.
Why ?

> from what i understand ice beer is made by frezeing the brew after
> fermentaion. the way i have followed was:
> 
> place the fermention, after brewing in the bucket, in a frezzer,
> and the water turns in to ice. pass the wort? through a sive, thus
> removing the ice nee water. bottle / barrel the remains. this should
> give a stronger result.
> 
> the only problem is the result that it is strong but it tasts crap.

Sounds like you got it right Steve !  Sorry, this wasn't meant to be a
flame but that stuff really is vile so why bother ?  I would have thought
there were easier ways of getting the effect you're after (ie. more sugar
in the wort or adding a bottle of Vodka to the beer before bottling !).  
You may be right about the method of manufacture but the whole thing is 
really just a hype.  ICE is really just a cool word to use in advertising 
and is aimed straight at the 20 to 30 age bracket.  

By the way, did you know that the ice that gets strained off that stuff
is bottled and sold as Bud ?  :-)

Phil Hitchman.

hitchmap at hoskyns.co.uk
phitchma at mpc-uk.com                                               \\/\//
                                                                  OO  || 
                                                                  /_  .)
            "Three pints of Monkey Wrench and a bottle of         /|\ /\
             Bud with a straw please"                              \_/  \


PS. I'm sitting here in my asbestos suit so flame away...I don't care !


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 12:59:48 +0100
From: mitch at molbio.su.se
Subject: mercury FAQ?

I'm a little out of touch, and I'd like to get information on the best
way to handle mercury - how long in the boil?  how to best dry-mercury?
different grades, etc...., but I hate to waste the bandwidth.  Is there
a mercury FAQ?
Mitch in Stockholm



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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:19:19 +0000
From: B.Wilson at strath.ac.uk ( Brian Wilson)
Subject: Widgets

Hi there,

I'm a newbie to this list so please excuse me if this topic has already
been mentioned in previous mailings.

An article has been flowing in the british media regarding faulty widgets
in cans of Tetley Bitter.  Apparently due to a manufacturing error the
widgets in the bottom of the cans can actually come away from the bottom
and float to the top.  It is then possible for the drinker to the swallow
said widget.

All of the ofending cans were recalled and we are told that this problem is
an isolated incident.  I wonder if anyone else has come accross this
problem in drinking from cans with widgets in them.

For those not sure what a widget is, let me quickly explain it is a gadget
at the bottom of the can wich releases gases in to the beer to give that
freashly pulled taste and look.

Cheers For Now, and drink on,


              .--~~,__
    ....,-------`~~'._.'
    `-,,,  ,_      ;'~U'
     _,-' ,'`-__; '--.
    (_/'~~      ''''(;

Brian Wilson



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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 8:41:52 EDT
From: "Lee A. Menegoni" <lmenegoni at nectech.com>
Subject: a real old thread

Nitrosamines were discussed on HBD years ago.    The conclusion. Your more 
likely to die from a car accident on your way to the supermarket. Then from 
the nitrosamines in beer and grilled food eaten with mercury amalgen 
fillings.

Lets get back to beer and brewing.

Lee Menegoni

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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 08:37:31 -0500
From: rlarsen at squeaky.free.org (Rich Larsen)
Subject: Diacetyl rests

Don Put responded to my post in private e-mail, but I thought it would be 
some good info for the masses...

>Date: Wed, 7 Jun 1995 09:58:17 -0700 (PDT)
>From: Don Put <dput at cello.gina.calstate.edu>
>To: rlarsen at squeaky.free.org
>Subject: Diacetyl rests
>X-UIDL: 802551335.003
>
>
>Rich, 
>
>I'm sure someone will respond to your post in the HBD, but I thought
>I'd send you some of the info I've dug up in my lagering research.
>
>>>Diacetyl is another chemical that will give you a butter/butterscotch 
>>>flavor in beer; lagering at a low temp (<50F) will cause the yeast to 
>>>reabsorb the diacetyl for food.
>
>>This is incorrect.  The cool fermentation results in lower ester production 
>>thus a less fruity, more crisp beer.  The diacetyl is reabsorbed when the 
>>temperature is raised up to around 60-70.  This is sometimes refered to a 
>>diacetyl rest.  Some lager yeasts will require this rest otherwise you'll 
>>wind up with a beer that would taste pretty darn good poured over popcorn.
>
>Actually, it isn't incorrect; it's just another more traditional method
>of lagering.  With the emphasis on turnaround time in the industry today, 
>many brewers use an accelerated lagering schedule with a higher temperature
>diacetyl rest such as you suggested.  
>
>Here's an outline of a traditional lagering schedule:
>
>"For an authentic contential lager, ferment at 48-51F for 1 week, drop temp
>2F per day until it is 42F. Rest here 2-4 days (diacetyl rest), then
>drop 2F per day until you hit 31F.  Hold 4-8 weeks depending on style.
>Either lager in kegs, and bung to create natural CO2, or krausen with
>fresh krausen (fermenting yeast & wort, at 7-15% of volume).  Those who
>"bring up" the temp are preaching the American fast lager approach.  This
>is where ferments are done quite warm (up to 60F) and lots of diacetyl is
>produced that requires reduction by the yeast.  It has been demonstrated that
>bringing the temp up to 68-70F for 2 days or so will reduce the diacetyl
>to "normal" levels.  Taste tests of experienced panels have shown a preference
>for the traditional techniques."  (Sorry, but I can't find the reference.)
>
>>From Noonan:
>
>"It is relatively common in modern fermentation cycles to raise the 
>temperature of the post-kraeusen beer to 52F, and to hold that temperature
>for two to seven days.  This is a *diacetyl rest*.  It encourages oxidation
>of yeast-excreted acetohydroxy acids to vicinal diketones, and it
>reinvigorates the yeast culture so that it metalbolizes diacetyl, thereby
>removing it from solution."  _Brewing_Lager_Beer_, pg. 156.
>
>Also, on page 655 in volume 2 of _Malting_and_Brewing_Science_ there's a 
>nice table that outlines European and American lagering schedules.  So,
>although there is a trend towards shorter, higher temperature conditioning 
>periods for lager beer, there is still more than one way to skin the 
>proverbial cat.
>
>don  (dput at cello.gina.calstate.edu)
=> Rich <rlarsen at squeaky.free.org>
________________________________________________________________________
Rich Larsen, Midlothian, IL.  Also on HomeBrew University (708) 705-7263
  Spice is the varity of life.
________________________________________________________________________


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 9:14:11 CDT
From: PHIL=MEYERS%TS=DESKCASE%CS=HOU at bangate.compaq.com
Subject: The ideal gas law...

Larry Bristol writes:

>Play with this hypotechtical - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at 
850psi/75F
>and another at 500psi/45F and we put a line between them.  Will gas flow 
>from one to the other?  No - they are at equilibrium.


Ok folks, lets pull out our physics and/or chemistry books, dust it off and 
look at the idea gas law.

PV=nRT

P= pressure
V=volume
n=moles of gas
R=universal gas constant
T=temp in Kelvin

You can, through a bit of math, get:

P(1)V(1)/n(1)T(1) = P(2)V(2)/n(2)/T(2)

Since it is a closed system, n(1)=n(2), V(1)=V(2) leaving you with 
P(1)/V(1)=P(2)/V(2) therefore the system will be in equilibrium once all of 
the CO2 that will dissolve into the beer at the temperature of the beer is 
complete.  If you don't believe me, do the math yourself.  It works!
Larry is correct.  Let the flames begin!

Phil  


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 9:22:58 CDT
From: PHIL=MEYERS%TS=DESKCASE%CS=HOU at bangate.compaq.com
Subject: Subject: Mini-Keg Survey Results

Harry Writes:

>        I, for one, am leaning toward the Fass-Frisch metal tap based upon
>the answers I've received. Now to find the cheapest price!

Here's my two cents.  My girlfriend got me one of the Fass-Frisch plastic 
CO2 tapes for Christmas.  All has been going well with it.  It drips a 
little (like a 1/2 tsp per day in the fridge).  However, we went camping 
over Easter weekend and I brought along 4 minikegs to astonish my friends 
with my brewing prowess.  Unfortunately, upon installing the first CO2 
cylinder (a real Fass-Frisch on, not a no-namer), as soon as the cylinder 
was punctured, the handle spilt in two and handle/cylnder was torn from my 
hand and ended up about 100 yards downrange.  Scared the piss out of me.  
Fortunately, my neighborhood brewshop replaced the handle at no charge.  
However, I am looking into having the neighborhood welding shop fashion me 
a new handle out of metal tubing.  Therefore, I recommend the system but go 
for the metal.

Added bonus:  in some areas (here in Texas) some of your major liquor 
stores carry the minikegs full of beer for about US$12 (vs. US$8 for an 
empty at the brewshop).  My brewshop sells the replacement plugs for 
US$0.95.  Just cut the one out of the old keg and away you go.

Phil


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M<"!F87-H:6]N(&UE(&$ at ;F5W(&AA;F1L92!O=70 at ;V8 at ;65T86P at ='5B:6YG
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M<R!C87)R>2!T:&4 at ;6EN:6ME9W, at 9G5L;"!O9B!B965R(&9O<B!A8F]U="!5
M4R0Q,B`H=G,N(%53)# at  at 9F]R(&%N(&5M<'1Y(&%T('1H92!B<F5W<VAO<"DN
M("!->2!B<F5W<VAO<"!S96QL<R!T:&4 at <F5P;&%C96UE;G0 at <&QU9W, at 9F]R
M(%53)#`N.34N("!*=7-T(&-U="!T:&4 at ;VYE(&]U="!O9B!T:&4 at ;VQD(&ME
M9R!A;F0 at 87=A>2!Y;W4 at 9V\N" at I0:&ELQP`#`.D$P``!``$````*``$``0`!
M`.D$````````./\```````"0`0``````````35, at 4V%N<R!397)I9 at ``````
M`````````````````````````0`!``X``0`/``\``0`0`%L``0!<`)<``0"8
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"``!E
`
end

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Date: Thu,  8 Jun 95 09:24:22 PDT
From: kpnadai at adsnet.com
Subject: Bombs Away!

>From: Martin Schwan <schwmar at charlie.acc.iit.edu>
>Subject: Starter questions
>
>I have a few questions about wort for yeast starters.  I brew up
>a small batch of hopped wort a la Charlie P. for use as starters. 
>I store the wort in capped brown bottles at room temp. for lack
>of frig. space.  I follow good sanitary procedures and the wort
>goes into the bottles hot, so I'm not worried about beasties.  I
>am wondering though, how long can I store the wort this way? 
>

I did this once and didn't get to make a starter until about two
weeks later.  As I grabbed the bottles, I notice more sediment
than there had been when I bottled it.  Oh, well.  It must be
cold break.

What I had in my hands was a live grenade.  All of them were
contaminated with something that smelled very nasty and built up
a lot of pressure.  None of them burst, but opening them was an
adventure!

The problem is you can never expect STERILE conditions at home. 
For most of us, SANITARY is good enough.  Any beasties left in
our wort are quickly overwhelmed by the yeasties.  Which is why
underpitching is risking contamination.  What you and I did was
bottle SANITARY wort, and the inevitable beasties, no matter how
few, are having a field day right now.  They think they died and
went to beastie heaven.  "All this perfect wort, for US?"

With refrigeration, they won't grow much until you bomb them with
your yeast starter-starter.  But in that nice room temp
environment,look out!

Do yourself a favor.  Take out that potato salad from Memorial
Day and put your wort in its place.

Another difference between clean and sterile was demonstrated to
me when I worked at a veterinarian while I was in high school. 
The doctor had just finished with a patient, and the exam table
was covered with nail clippings, hair, drool, and a few other
fluids we do not need to discuss.

The doctor turned to me and said, "Do you know the difference
between clean and sterile?"  I replied no, and he proceeded to
spray the mess with a nasty disinfectant we used to sterilize
surgical instruments that could not be autoclaved.

He pointed to the mess and said, "THAT'S sterile."  Then he wiped
it up and said, "NOW it's clean."

Brew Bayou,
Kevin Nadai



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Date: Thu, 08 Jun 95 10:25:32 PST
From: Glen_Baldridge at ccmail.medicus.com
Subject: UK vs US Crystal Malts

     In response to my queries to make a Brown Ale with a noticable Carmel 
     taste (Drake's Ale clone), Dave S and Jim B have stressed the 
     importance of using UK crystal instead of US (80Lov).  
     
     Any insights into the difference?  Do production procedures or base 
     grains or something else make the difference?
     
     I have the choice of a 60L UK (M&F) vs 80L US (Breiss), which will 
     give more caramel flavor?
     
     Glen 


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:28:09 -0400
From: LimaWiskey at aol.com
Subject: Re: #1(2) Homebrew Digest #1745 (May 31, 1995)

In a message dated 95-05-31 06:05:20 EDT, you write:

>Date: Tue, 30 May 1995 09:36:38 -0400
>From: hbush at pppl.gov (harry)
>Subject: Hg
>
>        A quick question. Should Mercury be added to the boil, just
>after
>boiling, or to the secondary?
>
>
>Harry


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:34:39 -0400
From: RWaterfall at aol.com
Subject: Thermodynamics Digest

Larry Bristol says in hbd1751:

"Play with this hypotechtical - suppose we have one CO2 bottle at 850psi/75F
and another at 500psi/45F and we put a line between them.  Will gas flow from
one to the other?  No - they are at equilibrium."
- ------------------------------------------
I'm sorry Larry, but I don't agree.  This stuff definitely isn't intuitive,
so I can understand your confusion.  (I took at least 5 college courses that
started out with PV=nRT and it only started to sink in by Jr. year) 

The driving force of fluid flow is pressure and only pressure.  While the
temperature of a gas very definitely affects it's pressure, that does not
mean that your two bottles are "in equilibrium."  They just contain the same
amount of CO2.  If we use your example at temps and pressures that give a
gas, I haven't tried it but I'd bet $20 (I almost said "a week's pay" but I
don't want to put that much money where my mouth is) it would flow from the
high pressure bottle to the low pressure bottle.  This is because a higher
pressure bit of gas will push against a lower pressure bit of gas until the
pushes are the same in both directions (i.e. same pressure).  The increase in
pressure of the originally low pressure bits is due to a decrease in their
VOLUME.  This will happen with all the little bits of gas in the whole system
rather quickly (pressure waves travel at the speed of sound). If the two
bottles were linked by a heat conductive coupling instead of a hose, heat
would flow from the warmer to the cooler one until the temperatures were
equal (assuming no refigerator).

Let's use a related hypothetical situation where we know the outcome.
 There's a magic trick/Physics Lecture where you put a match in a jar, put an
orange on top and see what happens.  The match heats up the air inside the
jar forcing some out due to it's higher pressure (and using some up in the
combustion).  When the match goes out, the air in the jar starts to cool
down. This lowers the pressure and sucks the orange into the jar.  More
accurately, the greater pressure of the ambient air trying to get into the
jar pushes the orange out of the way.   Before I'm accused of comparing beer
and oranges, I just want to say that I'm aware that the two situations are
not completely analogous but I think it helps in visualizing the pressure
difference concept.

BTW, your atmospheric example doesn't fly because the atmosphere is anything
but in equilibrium.  I think anyone who's witnessed a hurricane or tornado
(intense flows caused by pressure differences) can attest to that.

I think the problems you described in your hbd1747 post, may have been due to
temperature induced regulator inaccuracies rather than any new laws of
thermodynamics.

All that theory taken care of, I suggest we just fiddle with all the knobs
and dials until the beer comes out the way you like it.  Maybe we should find
an engineering group to continue this discussion.

Bob Waterfall,
B.S. Chem. Engg. '81
Rensselaer Polytech. Inst.

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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 08:55:15 PDT
From: kens at lan.nsc.com (Ken Schroeder)
Subject: Brews to Style

In HBD 1750 Spencer wrote about errors in the AHA Styles Guideline. In 
particular he mentioned that it is difficult to tell the difference of a 
barley wine with an OG of 1.127 from the AHA guidelline of 1.120. He went
on the say that the AHA guideline for dopplebock does not match the 
German law for dopplebock OG. He continued with a statement concerning 
any color above ~30 SRM is black and don't get hung up on color, it counts
for only 4% of the total score. One possible conclusion from these 
statements may be : A beer does not need to meet all of the parameters 
of a style to be entered into that style. Many brews have won catagories, 
even best of shows, with out being 100% compliant to a style GUIDELINE.
These are guidelines, not unbreakable rules! If a beer has the basic 
characteristics of a style, enter it in that classification! If the brew
appears to cross catagories, enter it in both. I brew a kolsh which matches
the kolsh guideline. Many judges have advised me to enter this beer a 
an American Pale Ale. I enter the brew into both catagories and get close
to the same score by different judges with basically the same comments.
The brewer who claims his beer doesn't fit into a catagory, I say hog wash. 
Your beer just doen't meet someone else's guidelines (the AHA usually).
Yes, you will be judged by the guidelines for the style you enter, but
that doen't mean a brew that violates the guideline (but has the 
characterisiticsis of the style) is disqualified or can't win. In fact,
why do the "big" beers do so well in competition?

Entering a competition is the best way to see what characteristics your 
brewwery has. Enter all or most of your brews. From the comments on the 
score sheets of all your entries, a pattern will develope. That pattern
is your brewery's characteristics. From this you may decide to keep
a characteristic or change it. Our brewery (my wife brews without my
help) has the characteristic of to much hops (hopheads :-). But
after surveying many score sheets, it became clear that our flavor hops
were imparting to much bitterness into our brews. I decided to try cutting
the Alpha Acid content by using hops with less acid content. I kept the 
hoppy characteristic and balanced the maltiness of my brews. My score 
improved, my beers are consumed faster by our friends.

Thanks for letting me say my piece.

Ken Schroeder
Sequoia Brewing

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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:08:20 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Ice, ice, baby.

> Subject: ice beer?

> any one with any thoughts on the subject?

Yuck.  Why bother?

> =20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20

I suppose it does, yeah.

 -R

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Date: Thu, 08 Jun 1995 11:22:25 -0600
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: What temp to ferment Wheinstephen WY 3068?

Hi,

Subject line says it all.   There are no clues in the Yeast.faq and the package
just gives guidelines for ale and lager.  My impression is that this is not
quite either one, right?  This will be my first attemp at a weizen, basically
using this yeast and a couple boxes of NW Weizen extract.  As always, any
suggestions would be appreciated.  What would happen at 75F?!?  Thanks!

- --Brian K. Pickerill <00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu> Muncie, IN


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 09:23:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jeff Frane <gummitch at teleport.com>
Subject: Re: nitrosamines

Kit Anderson wrote:

> 
> Subject: Nitrosamines
> 
> Now that the mercury thread is fizzling out, I hesitate to ask about 
> this topic. BUT...when I was taking organic chemistry in college, the 
> professor said that nitrosamines are produced in the malting process 
> and are an unfortunate and inevitable component in beer. He said the 
> same for smoked foods but also stated that he would die before giving 
> up beer and jerky. (One of the best combinations since an Imperial 
> stout and a Hoyo de Monterey Double Corona ;)
> 
> I searched the archives for occurances of 'nitro' and 'amine'. Nada. 
> Except about smoked grains.
> 
> New thread; are there actually carcinogens called nitrosamines in 
> beer? And if so, in significant concentrations?
> 
I *know* it's in there somewhere, although it's been several years.
Start back-tracking to whenever Jack Schmidling first appeared in these
august pages, and you'll find the introduction of the topic.  Also the
dismissal of it.  It's true that direct firing of malt can create
nitrosamines, but the malting industry is fully aware of this and has
developed processes to combat it: either indirect heating, or the use of
sulfur (as I remember) to reduce it.

You ain't gonna get cancer from your beer (unless you do your own
malting, perhaps, and don't take precautions).


- --Jeff Frane


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 10:40:15 cdt
From: Larry Bristol <larry at bristolpc.bmc.com>
Subject: Thermodynamics Digest

> All that theory taken care of, I suggest we just fiddle with all the knobs 
> and dials until the beer comes out the way you like it.  Maybe we should find 
> an engineering group to continue this discussion.

That's where this discussion belongs.  Obviously, the examples I used in an 
attempt to explain my observations were flawed.  For that, I have received a 
more than adequate supply of flames.  Thanks to all who contributed!  But it 
does not change the observations in any way.  

The original question concerned whether the CO2 bottle, regulator, et al should 
be placed inside or outside the refridgerator, which I consider to be a valid 
area for discussion in this forum.  I happen to be someone (of what I would 
guess to be a relative few) who have experienced both ways.  It was all the 
"fiddling with the knobs" I had to do to make "the beer come out the way I like 
it" after moving the CO2 bottle from the inside to the outside that I was 
attempting to explain.

- --- begin soapbox mode ---

Unfortunately, that information seems to have gotten lost because of my bad 
examples, the rantings of those who take delight in the mistakes made by 
others, and by those who think any data that does not fit their pet theory must 
be discarded.  If the self-proclaimed experts knew so much, it seems to me that 
they should have answered the original question in the first place rather than 
waiting to criticize someone who did.  

- --- end soapbox mode ---

> I think the problems you described in your hbd1747 post, may have been due to 
> temperature induced regulator inaccuracies rather than any new laws of 
> thermodynamics.

Sorry, I should have learned my lesson by now, but I could not pass this 
without comment.  If this is the case, then it is a SEVENTY PER CENT error!  My 
original point was that the pressure reading has to be interpretted based on 
its temperature.  Whether the gauge is faulty, or it is a "new law of 
thermodynamics", or something in-between, it supports my statement.  However, 
there is nothing to indicate that either the regulator or gauge is faulty.  
They certainly are not precision instruments, but they are doing the job for 
which they were designed.  





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Date: Thu, 08 Jun 1995 11:43:01 -0500
From: ddavison at earth.execpc.com (Dennis Davison)
Subject: Re: ice beer

|From: steve brown <steve at zaxxon.demon.co.uk>
|
|place the fermention, after brewing in the bucket, in a frezzer,
|and the water turns in to ice. pass the wort? through a sive, thus
|removing the ice nee water. bottle / barrel the remains. this should
|give a stronger result.
|
|the only problem is the result that it is strong but it tasts crap.

#1 Why would you want to brew an American/Canadian Ice Beer anyway? I
shutter at that thought.

#2 Your process is somewhat correct. The major thing you left out was to
re-add water back to the beer after you removed the ice.

Freezing and extracting ice is distillation. Distillation is Illegal in the
US unless you happen to have one of those nice little distillers licenses.
But I just noticed that your in the UK so here goes. The mega's have to
re-dilute the beer back to it's original strength. The initial freezing
helps concentrate several flavor characterisitcs as well as alcohol. For
the Am/Can ice beers there alcohol content is generally not to much greater
than 5% ABV anyway. This roughly means in a 23 liter batch of 4% ABV you
only need to remove about 2 liters of ice/water to get that strength.

The other problem you may have is the passing of the beer through a sive.
Are you oxidizing it at this point? Freeze it in a keg next time. Transfer
under CO2 pressure to a clean keg.


Dennis Davison                                       ddavison at earth.execpc.com

 ...........To boldy consume, where no others have consumed before..............



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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 13:36:35 -0400 (EDT)
From: barber eric stephen <barber_e at einstein.eng.ohio-state.edu>
Subject: Scottish Ale

OK, OK, OK, all I've been making recently are easy drinking,
low potency beers, what can I say the summers in Columbus
need an easy drinker.  Now I am ready to venture into a 
very high alcohol Scottish Ale.  I am using two packs of 
Wyeast 1728
(Scottish Ale), but beyond that I have some research to 
do, and my research usually starts with the invaluable
knowledge of all ya all out there.  So if you got the 
knowledge please share it with me.  By the way this will
be an all grain recipe, 5 gal. batch.  Is a Munich malt 
used for scot ale?  Should I make my own Munich?  All 
and any info on this subject greatly appreciated!!

Somebody posted there concerns about drinking too much
home brew, like a 6 pack a week.  If you are still out 
there and still concerned about how many beers you drink
let me offer my one step solution.  Make your beer 3 times 
as potent as what you can buy. This way by normal 
standards you can drink a 6 pack, but benefit from an 
equivalent 18 beers.  Am I missing the point?  I do 
not think so.

	TIA,  Eric 


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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:58:40 -0600
From: rhanson at nmsu.edu (Robin Hanson)
Subject: ice beer?

Steve Brown asked about ice beer
His method was as follows:

>place the fermention, after brewing in the bucket, in a frezzer,
>and the water turns in to ice. pass the wort? through a sive, thus
>removing the ice nee water. bottle / barrel the remains. this should
>give a stronger result.

The problem with this method is that it is not legal in either the US or the 
UK. Alcohol has a lower melting point than water so when you un-freeze the 
wort you get a distillation, the "ice" that remains is water and the 
"liquid" is alcohol/water. 

I have tried a few US/Canadian ice beer and they are all IMHO disgusting, I 
would stick with un-ice beer, if you want more alcohol put more sugar/malt 
in the wort. If it does not ferment out add a wine yeast after the kraussen 
dies down.

There is a German Eisbock but I have never tried it.

Robin

Robin Hanson

Rhanson at nmsu.edu


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Date: 08 Jun 95 14:05:55 EDT
From: Don Rudolph <DON at nova.mhs.compuserve.com>
Subject: Pet Peeves, Con't.


Can we add to our Pet Peeve list

=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=2
0=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=
20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20=20

Can we, huh?  Thanks.

Don Rudolph
Seattle WA
don at nova.mhs.compuserve.com




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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 14:14:55 -0400
From: Beersgood at aol.com
Subject: Starters & Ageing

My first question is about yeast and starters. A lot has been said but it is
difficult to sort through it all. What exactly, if any, are the advantages to
liquid yeast cultures? Is there an advantage? What are the cons of dried
yeast? And how should I go about making a quart starter?

Next - when does ageing begin? If I let the beer sit in the secondary for a
week after fermentation is complete, then prime and bottle does that week
work for ageing? If I keg and force carbonate, should I age first then force
carbonate just before I drink it or carbonate and then age it?

Please E-mail and I will compile the results and post. Thanks.

Dave Petersen
Crete, NE

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Date: 8 Jun 95 13:21:00 -0500
From: korz at iepubj.att.com (Algis R Korzonas +1 708 979 8583)
Subject: Scrubbing air

Cary writes:
>4.  Aerate using an aquarium pump and air stone for about an hour.  I 
>sometimes have to break the hour down into ten minute segments to avoid a 
>"foam over".  I also scrub the air by passing it through an airstone 
>submerged in hydrogen peroxide before it reaches the airstone in the wort 
>- -- kind of like my old water pipe from the '70s ;-)

Coincidentally, I've seen this method publicized twice in the last two weeks
(the other place being a local club newsletter).  I'm afraid that it does
not sanitize the air as one might expect.  Think about it: only the air
that is in direct contact with the H2O2 will be sanitized; since the
contact is only at the bubble walls, the air inside each bubble still
contains dust and bacteria; when the bubbles rise and pop, they dump
their microbiologically active cargo into the headspace of the vessel
and subsequently your wort.  A tube stuffed with dry cotton or one of
those disposable medical filters would do much better at filtering out
nasties.

Al.

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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 11:22:10 -0700
From: gtinseth at teleport.com (Glenn Tinseth)
Subject: Oregon/Washington/Idaho--Regional Competition

Saturday, June 24th is when the first-ever Mill Creek Classic Homebrew
Competition will be held. It is open *only* to Oregon, Washington, and
Idaho brewers, although an exception can probably be made for any BC
brewers brave enough to make the trek.

This is an HWBTA sanctioned event and will be held at the Willamette
Brewpub in Salem, Oregon. The winning brewer will collaborate with Jeff
Cruise, the Brewpub's owner/brewer to brew a full-size commercial batch of
the Best of Show brew, and will be the object of much cheering, media
coverage, and free beer.

I need the following two essential ingredients:

o  brewers willing to enter excellent homebrewed beer
o  judges willing to drink/evaluate excellent homebrewed beer

If you want to fill either of the aforementioned positions, email me with
your snail mail address and I'll forward the proper packet (judging or
entry) directly to your mailbox.

Thanks for the bandwidth,

Glenn Tinseth
gtinseth at teleport.com
503-873-2879



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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 95 13:37:50 PDT
From: JRF7 at can02.pge.com (Jim R. Fortes)
Subject: Help with Silica Gel 

In the ongoing quest to eliminate chill haze I have purchased some  
silica gel. The package says to stir in .5 OZ at bottling time. First  
question, do I need to rehydrate it first or just throw it in dry?  
Here's my concern, I don't bottle anymore just keg. I also force  
carbonate. So if I throw the silica gel into the keg, let it sit for a  
few days then chill and force carb the keg what can I expect to happen?  
Will taking the keg and shaking the jebeezes out of it defeat my  
purpose? What do the big guys do, I read that they use silica for the  
same purpose. TIA

Jim Fortes
jrf7 at pge.com
Belmont CA

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Date: Thu, 8 Jun 1995 16:39:29 -0400
From: steve at snake.appl.wpafb.af.mil (Steve Zabarnick)
Subject: Re: Belgian yeasts

Jim Busch writes (about Celis Pale Bock) in HBD #1752:

>I
>found the Pale Bock on Vat while having dinner in Brugge and it was a
>wonderful Belgian Pale Ale, right in there along with Palm and DeKonnick.

Which brings me to a question. On a trip to the Netherlands last year, I
tasted Palm and DeKoninck for the first time. These beers are wonderful,
very drinkable brews, which have a wonderful balance of maltiness and yeast
character (especially the DeKoninck). Has anyone out there tried to
reproduce these beers? Is the DeKoninck yeast available? Would any other
yeast strains serve as an acceptable substitute? Perhaps the Yeast Culture
Co. Belgian ale strain? I've read that these beers are decoction mashed.
Any comments?

Steve Zabarnick



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1754, 06/10/95