FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Aging (harry)
  Wheat, Chiller, mead, infections. (Russell Mast)
  HCl Sources?/Conical Fermenters ("Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556")
  RTP yeast distribution (Ken Jucks, ph # 617-496-7580)
  Another repitching question.. (Mario Robaina)
  Brewing a coffee Porter - How/when/where to add the coffee ("James S. Bayer")
  Old Red Breaking. (Russell Mast)
  Isinglass/ Better head with hops? (Aaron Shaw)
  Beers of Warsaw and Brussels (HOMEBRE973)
  Zirndorfer Recipe (Fritz Wilson)
  Gott Cooler Questions (Curiouser and curiouser...)
  Re: Lauter Screen (BixMeister)
  What's that flavor? (Christopher Mack)
  hot water heater (HOUCK KEITH A)
  Clovey Weizen/Starter Infection (Don Rudolph)
  Steam RIMS (Kelly E Jones)
  Source for Cheap and Reliable Wort Chillers (RALPHBACON)
  Steam induced circulation/Making an immersion chiller/Red beer (Philip Gravel)
  Poor Service Comments (Brent Irvine)
  All Grain Starters (Greg Holton)
  Minor correction RE: Warmed beer? (Jeff Renner)
  Re: St. Pats reply (Jay Reeves)
  TSP (Pierre Jelenc)
  10 Gallon Request (James Russ)
  re:All-grain starter wort/Micros in France (Nir Navot)
  Kettle boils/Red Seal/Goose (Jim Busch)
  Re: St. Pats/Gadgets/Misc. (Douglas R. Jones)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:36:55 -0400
From: hbush at phoenix.Princeton.EDU (harry)
Subject: Aging

Dean Miller recalls a forgotten bottle of beer story in HBD 1830:

>I brewed an IPA in the beginning of '94..........This past Sunday, 9/10/95, I
>>was looking through this same friend's refigerator
>and, lo and behold, what should I find but a bottle of this same batch of IPA.
>
>I thought to myself, myself.. this is probably septic fodder, but I opened it
>and tried it.  It was the best bottle of IPA I have ever had.  It was smooth,
>no harsh edges, and had a mellow character to it that I would not ever have
>believed.

I have an almost identical story with a batch of English Bitter that I
considered only "acceptable" when I first tasted it. I proceeded to finish
it off over the next month or so. A full year later, I found a bottle
hidden in the back of my beer fridge (what does that tell you about the
frequency of my refrigerator cleaning?) and popped it open. IT WAS FUCKING
WONDERFUL!!!!! That year of cold conditioning did the trick. I now have a
harsh tasting IPA batch that I'm going to "lager" in my fridge and I'm
hoping for a similar miracle.




harry

(new e-mail address, same old jerk!)



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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:41:53 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Wheat, Chiller, mead, infections.


> From: roberson at alkali.chem.utah.edu (Mark Roberson)
> Subject: Wyeast 3068
> 
>     I have gotten conflicting advice about the 3068 Weihenstephan wheat yeast;
> I have it in my head that in order to maximise the clove character you should
> keep the fermentation temperature below 50F, but the guy at the brew shop
> swears that it is an ale yeast which will poop out below 60F.  I've cruised
> everywhere I can think of on the net, without learning anything.

You're right, your brewshop guy is wrong.  One batch I brewed I had almost a
full gallon (all grain, fwiw) starter, and pitched it at around 70F.  WIthin 
12 hours it was raging, and I put it on the back porch where it was about 
40-45 for the next few weeks.  It did slow the fermentation down, but it was
so fast to begin with there wasn't much problem there.  

I've seen ale yeasts work at below 50F.  The only thing, IMO, that defines
a pure Weizen culture as "Ale" yeast is the fact that it's not a "lager" 
yeast.  In my admittedly limited understanding of yeast, S. Delbruckii (sp?)
is a totally different beast from either ale or lager.  I welcome any 
corrections from people who know what they're talking about.  :-)

> From: Daniel Louis Lanicek <dll0001 at jove.acs.unt.edu>
> Subject: Infected Beer?!

Relax, dude.  Your beer is fine.  The cloudiness has nothing to do with 
bacteria.  The bacteria that eat beer don't eat humans.  (That is, you can't
"catch" an infection from beer.)  Some bacteria and wild yeasts and molds have 
byproducts that can upset your stomach, but all of these that I've heard or
read about (or tasted!) upset your tongue enough that it's hard to drink 
enough to get REALLY sick.

> From: scarin at primenet.com (Larry Scaringelli)
> Subject: re:lots o' things

> A quick mead question: 

Do you know about the Mead Lover's Digest?  The subscription address is 
mead-request@ talisman.com.  Only send one request - The janitor there is
highly skilled and doesn't need to be mailbombed.  It's a weekly digest,
so you'll have to wait awhile for it.

Oh, and my answer to your question is "go for it".

> From: robtrish at noif.ncp.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
> Subject: 100 % wheat malt
> 
> There have been some posts lately about making a 100% wheat malt beer.  I
> have been told by a semi-reliable source that  wheat malt has NO
> beta-amylase.  Can anyone confirm this?

I can't.  I've brewed a couple batches with 100% wheat malt.  They were great.
If it has no beta-amylase, well, then I don't need beta-amylase.

> For the fun of experimentation, I've tried boiling the wheat portion of a
> wheat beer without barley and I've gotten a very thick gluey mess.  Doing
> this again with a small portion of barley and resting at 65'C, it thins
> right out.  I know another brewer who has had the same experience. 

That sounds like a protease effect, not an amylase effect.  Did you try 
doing the 65C rest _without_ adding malted barley?

> Apart from sheer experimentation, I personally can't think of a reason to
> use 100% wheat malt in a beer; 

How about a handful of personal testimonies claiming it to be the best beer 
they've ever made? 

Trust me - it makes a great beer.  And, for whatever reason, it tastes much
more like my favorite authentic weizens that recipes which more closely match
those used in the actual weizens.  Maybe there's something about the 
homebrewing environment which makes those recipes less effective, and using
100% wheat compensates.  I don't know.  All I know is that the 100% wheat malt 
beers I've made, and tasted from others (well, ONE other) have been fantastic
beers.  (What more reason do you need?)

> it's like doubling the dose of a medicine
> expecting it to be twice as effective,

It depends on the medicine, but that's a pretty good rule of thumb within a
certain range for most drugs.  Just FYI.

> or having a bizzillion IBU's because
> you like a hoppy beer.  But each to his own. 

Oh, sure, go ahead and be snotty about it.  You know you want to try it...  

> From: Kenneth K Goodrow <goodrow at orion.etsu.edu>
> Subject: Cheap and reliable wort chillers?  Where and how much $$ ?
> 
> 
> I am looking for a wort chiller and am on a tight grad. students' budget. 

I bought 30' of 3/8" thick copper tubing.  When I bought it, it was already 
in a fairly decent coil shape.  I tried to uncoil it to clean it.  Not a real 
good idea.  If you want to bend or shape it, get it warm.  Hot tap water is 
often enough if you're not doing something really weird with it.  I took my 
miserable attempt at a Zapap lauter tun and dedicated it as a hopback.  I lay 
the coils in a bathtub or industrial sink filled with cool tap water and run 
the beer through the inside of the tubing.

You must clean it initially if you buy hardware-store tubing.  The way I was 
finally able to do this sufficiently was to take a couple wads of cotton ball 
or gauze (or scraps of cloth or whatever), get them soapy and wet, shove them 
inside, and force them through the tube with water pressure.  If your 
'scrubber' is too big, it will be too hard to force through.  Too small, and 
it won't clean sufficiently.  Run them through until they come clean, then 
run a couple more for good measure.  Rinse thoroughly, and enjoy.  

After each use, I simply rinse by forcing tap water through until it comes 
clean, and try to get as much out as I can.  Before each use, I let a little 
boiling hot wort run through before I fill the tub or before I put the coils 
in.  If you're going to handle a copper tube filled with boiling hot liquid, 
keep two things in mind.  First, it's gonna be hot.  Real hot.  Use oven mitts.
Second, it's going to become quite a lot more flexible.  This can be good if 
you just moved and want to reshape it a bit to fit a new tub or sink.  This 
can be bad if you have the thing up high and the coils sort of unfurl, and 
then you cool them before refurling them.

This is pretty cheap and doesn't take too long, and it's worked great for me 
for many batches.  (Probably 15-20.)

 -R

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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:53:05 -0500 (EST)
From: "Dave Bradley::IC742::6-2556" <BRADLEY_DAVID_A at Lilly.com>
Subject: HCl Sources?/Conical Fermenters


	My questions: 1. Anyone know of a good place to buy food-grade
		hydrochloric acid (dilute I'm sure)?  I would like
		to use this with my sparge water, but I need a
		source, or at least some possible sources.
		2. Anyone LOCALLY know of a good place to scrounge
		a SS keg for converting to a mash tun?  Thanks!

	My "contribution": In looking through the current (1995 #1)
		catalog from US Plastics, I saw what I think to be
		a new offering: conical bottom medium-size tanks!
		This shape makes a great potential fermenter (see
		discussions earlier this year in HBD).  The only
		"bad" news is the smallest size is 15gal.  The details
		FYI follow...15gal tank made of medium density poly-
		ethylene, FDA approved for water use, 60 degree
		sloped conical section, 2" FPT bottom outlet, a
		10" top opening "positive locking fillwell" (sealing
		is a question to ask them!).  Cost is ONLY $62!!!
		Also comes in 30gal and larger sizes.  This is almost
		enough to make me scale up!  US Plastics, (800) 537-9724

	Dave in Indy  (no affiliation, etc...)

From: BRADLEY DAVID A               (MCVAX0::RC65036)

To:   VMS MAIL ADDRESSEE            (IN::"homebrew at hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com")
cc:   BRADLEY DAVID A               (MCVAX0::RC65036)

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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 11:58:07 -0400
From: jucks at cfaft4.harvard.edu (Ken Jucks, ph # 617-496-7580)
Subject: RTP yeast distribution

Last week I posted that I would ask Seth of the RTP (ready to pitch) 
yeasts where his yeasts are currently available, and post this to this 
list.  At this time, the yeasts are available at homebrew shops in Mass 
and Rhode Island.  The list of stores is as follows:
- ----------------------------
Beer and Wine Hobby - Woburn, MA (1-800-523-5423 or 617-933-8818)
Barley Malt and Vine - Newton, MA (1-800-666-7026 or 617-630-1015)
Brewer's Market - Haverhill, MA (508-372-6987)
Witches Brew - Foxboro, MA (go Pat's) (I could not find this phone #)
Narragansett Home Brew Supply - Wakefield, RI (I could not find this phone #,
           but Seth says they keep a good and fresh supply, they sell alot)
Modern Brewer - Somerville, MA (1-800-SEND-ALE or 617-629-0400)
                                http://www.shore.net/~modbrew/
Some of these stores will do mail orders!!!

The yeasts currently available in the RTP format are as follows:
Name - origin or similar yeast
- -------------------------
Acme - Sierra Nev.  (We all know this yeast.)
English - Youngs
Irish - 1084ish
Scotch - McEwans
German Alt - W134ish
German Wheat - Lubsch
Belgian Ale - La Chouffe
German Lager - W34/70ish
London Special Bitter - Fuller's

Seth is about to convert to a larger lab, where he can produce more yeast.
When this happens, he wants to increase his base of operation to other
areas, most likely expanding down the east coast.  He told me that the 
RTP yeasts ship very well, with more than 95% of the cells still being
viable after shipping.  

If y'all have any questions about this post, just ask me.

Ken Jucks



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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:02:31 -0700 (PDT)
From: sprmario at netcom.com (Mario Robaina)
Subject: Another repitching question..

I, too, repitch my yeast, but generally do so from the secondary (little 
or no trub).  For those of you who repitch from the primary, or collect 
yeast for reuse from the primary: do you have problems with excessive 
trub (espcially after several repitchings)?  In reading a recent post about 
recovering yeast from the primary, someone mentioned skimming (ales) as a 
method for retrieving yeast.  For those of you who do that, how much do 
you skim and do you repitch only what you've collected or do you step it 
up first?

OK, now for a crazy idea: has anyone used the blowoff to collect yeast?  
Assuming you could collect in a sanitary environment (i.e., container 
with one tight seal for the blow-off, one tight seal for the airlock), 
seems like it would not be much different than skimming.  Might need to 
let the first, grimy blow-off get dumped, but the rest should be good, no?

 -John
(sprmario at netcom.com OR jgirard at leland.stanford.edu)


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 10:24:18 -0500
From: "James S. Bayer" <jbayer at lnb_dev.abn.com>
Subject: Brewing a coffee Porter - How/when/where to add the coffee

Hello to the collective!

I'm looking for advice from anyone who has brewed with coffee and/or chocolate.
 I plan to brew a oatmeal/honey/coffee porter and am trying to decide when,
where and how to introduce the coffee.

My options, as far as I can see, are:

1.)  Brew the coffee (strong-ish) and add to the boil.
2.)  Add the grounds to the boil in a cheesecloth and steep (how long??)
3.)  Dry hop with ground coffee
4.)  Mash it with the grain.

I think mashing would be difficult as the acidity of the coffee would be hard
to handle and the oil from the coffee would be more than troublesome.  I'm
tempted to extract brew this one for my first attempt anyway (so forget the
oatmeal in that case).

Any suggestions will be appreciated.  Private e-mail is ok to brewmstr at mcs.net.

Jim

- -- 
James S. Bayer

jbayer at lnb_dev.abn.com

ABM-AMRO
Treasury and Capital Markets Services
180 W. Madison - Suite 1706
Chicago, IL  60602
(312) 904-5982 - Direct Dial



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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 11:28:43 -0500
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Old Red Breaking.


> From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
>
> If someone else can explain what Lebesch was talking about I'd like to
> hear it--especially the references he made to "wort volume increases",
> which really left me dumbfounded.

It seems to me you understood him perfectly.  Wort volume increases refers,
I thought, to having a larger volume for your next step.  I suppose you 
could also just add wort right onto an existing culture.  Was there something
else I forgot?

>  ..and what puzzles me is that several (I think) homebrew books talk about
> having to boil for about 30 min to generate the hot break.  I've found
> the hot break *always* forms prior to the onset of the boil, and *never*
> appears afterward.  Anyone else seen that statement? Comments please!

Well, Captain, I often have hot break forming in my first runnings from
sparging, and sometimes in my lauter tun.  Especially when I use weird 
adjuncts. (Me, weird stuff? never!)  Last weekend I made a 1 gallon 
experimental batch using 1/2 lb of toasted buckwheat, and I probably had 
1/4 cup of protein goop in the first 2 qts. of runnings.  (I also used some
buckwheat honey, it might be a bracket, it might just be weird.)

> From: Dean Miller/BOSTON/PART/CSC
> Subject: Re: Aging Thread
> 
> I brewed an IPA in the beginning of '94...
> ... April ...
> This past Sunday, 9/10/95, I was looking through this same friend's 
> refigerator 
>  It was the best bottle of IPA I have ever had. 

Had it been refridgerated the entire time?  I've had bottles which I have 
"negelected" in the fridge for a month or two, and that nearly always helps
them taste better, even ales, and the hops don't decline as much as when they
are aged warmer.

> From: jwolf at smtplink.penril.com
> Subject: Aging Beer

>      He informed my that the beer MUST BE AGED CHILLED! 

What a strange coincidence!  I'd swear I've had some decent aging effects 
from temperatures in the 50's and 60's.  But, yeah, in the fridge they are
better.

>      SO, I have made up another batch and have placed HALF of it in the 
>      fridge after the first week in the bottle.  It comes out on Wednesday 

I can't wait to hear the results.  You should probably let some go even longer,
for comparison.  (If a pro-brew ages to completion in one week, it might take
a little longer for a homebrew.  ?)

> From: rbarnes at sdccd.cc.ca.us
> Subject: SEEING RED?
> 
>      What makes a 'red' ale?

A red ale brewer?  (Sorry, couldn't resist.)

Red isn't really a style, it's more of a color.  I mean, you can make two red
beers, of nearly the same color (and neither will be all that red), using a
very different grain profile, and they will have a very different taste.  I
think you can call them both "red" though.  

I think that with the popularity of major breweries "reds", like Leiny's, 
the style may become more solidified and there might be something more to
it than color.

>      term 'red' has been used a lot lately (Red Dog, Red Wolf, etc.) 

Funny you should mention those two.  Those aren't reds, those are just plain
lagers, or perhaps premium lagers.  Like they say "The Dog is red, the beer 
isn't."  I think they only called them that to confuse and frustrate people
in order to muck up Leiny's and other "real" Reds market shares.  Not sure.  
Oddly enough, they are pretty popular.  Those two beers are, IMO, so very 
close in style, if not in quality, to a standard north american lager, that 
they aren't really a distinct category.  (If given the choice between Coors
and Red Dog, I'll take the Dog.)  I think there might be a smidgeon of very 
light crystal malt in Red Dog and Red Wolf, and maybe people think they taste
a little like Red beers that are actually Red.

FWIW, Berghoff and Augsburger, which I think don't get too far from Chicago, 
and I think are made by the same people, if not the same recipes, both make a 
"Red" (or a "Rot" for Auggie, real German, yay!).  Both of these beers seem 
to me to be the same style as Leinenkugel's Red, and one other Red I've had.  
I'm pretty sure they just use a little crystal malt in them, and maybe a hint 
of roasted barley or black malt.

> I am particularly interested in duplicating (as closely as possible) St. 
>      Rogue Red and/or Red Nectar (even if they're not "true" reds).

They're as true as any Red's out there, I think.  Never had them myself, so
I can't help much.  I always have fun trying to concoct grain bills to clone
beers, and to try and guess what's in a homebrewed beer before I'm told.  
So far, I haven't had too much luck, but I've made some good beers.  (The 
best clone job I did was on Trois Monts, and it wasn't very close - but it 
was delicious.  The worst I did was trying to clone Felinfoel's Double Dragon,
back to the ol' drawing board there.)

 -R

Return to table of contents


Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:42:02 -0400
From: ar568 at freenet.carleton.ca (Aaron Shaw)
Subject: Isinglass/ Better head with hops?

     Greetings!

     I was thinking of using isinglass for fining my beer. What are
the pros and cons of isinglass? Will there be a significant degree
of clarification from beer that has not been fined?

     I also heard that dry hopping or using a hop-back will improve
the head retention of the finished beer. I checked the hop faq and 
found no mention of this. Is it true?
 
     Any information on the above questions will be greatly appreciated.


- --
      "Come my lad, and drink some beer!"
                                           Aaron Shaw
                                           Ottawa, Canada

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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 12:40:57 -0400
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: Beers of Warsaw and Brussels

Hope someone can help me on this.  I'll be going to Warsaw, Poland and
Brussels, Belgium in the near future.  I would appreciate anyone suggesting
local beers to try in these cities.  TIA
Andy Kliagerman
homebre973 at aol.com

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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 13:00:36
From: Fritz Wilson <Fritz at megaweb.com>
Subject: Zirndorfer Recipe

During the 5 years I lived in Nuernberg in the early 80's 
(before I started brewing) I became quite partial to a local 
brew from the small town of Zirndorf near there.  The brewery 
name on my souvenir mug says Brauerei Zirndorf seit 1674.

The name of the beer is Zirndorfer, and I think it was a 
Munich style lager maybe a helles, but not sure.

Where might I start my search for this recipe?

Does anyone have it or others of this style and quality?

TIA, Fritz


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 09:54:30 -0700
From: ruderman at esca.com (Curiouser and curiouser...)
Subject: Gott Cooler Questions

Hi,

I just received a 10 gallon Gott cooler and I have a couple of questions:

o How do I get rid of the "new plastic" smell in the cooler?  Unfortunately, 
there are no suggestions included with the cooler to tackle this problem.

o I am intending to get a Phil's False Bottom for the cooler, but have read
accounts where they float when the fit is not snug.  If I attach some copper
weights to the false bottom (with copper wire) will this remedy this problem? 
Is there a particular kind of copper to use for this purpose (is there such a
thing as food grade copper or is all copper food grade?).

o Are there some plans (i.e. what parts to get at the hardware store) and 
instructions somewhere that guide one through the surgical procedure of 
replacing the Gott spigot with one better suited for homebrew purposes?  

Thanks for your assistance,
Robert Ruderman

reply to: ruderman at esca.com

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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 15:13:28 -0400
From: BixMeister at aol.com
Subject: Re: Lauter Screen

I have been fortunate in the past to have informative replies to my past
inquiries on H.B.D.  My latest inquiry is to those persons that have
constructed their own stainless steel mash screens.  

I have 2 vessels that I wish to use as mash vessels.  The first vessel is a
10 gallon stainless steel pot.  This pot is straight sided with a diameter of
14 inches.  A ss coupling is welded at the very bottom of vessel and is
fitted with ss ball valve.  The 2nd vessel is ss barrel keg(wider in center)
of 15.5 gal capacity.  A coupling is welded just above bottom weld line.  A
ss ball valve will be fitted to coupling.

I have a source and fabricator for screen.  What are your ideas for
constructionn.  The keg has 10 inch opening for lid.  If you have ascii art
illustrations I would appreciate same.

                                                                Many Thanks
                                                                BixMeister

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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 14:39:00 -0500
From: Christopher Mack <MACKCD at WP.DHSS.STATE.WI.US>
Subject:  What's that flavor?

Randy Barnes' desire for a red ale recipe got me thinking ...

I've had Red Nectar once while in California, and it had a rich, almost
chewy character to it.  I've noticed similar flavors in Bell's Amber Ale by
Kalamazoo Brewing Co. and in Young's Special London Ale.  I'd *love* to
replicate that taste, but I don't even know what causes it.  If anyone has
a clue, *please* let me know.  TIA,

Chris Mack
mackcd at wp.dhss.state.wi.us


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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 20:42:41 +0000 (GMT)
From: HOUCK KEITH A <HOUCK_KEITH_A at Lilly.com>
Subject: hot water heater

Hi y'all,
I am considering trying to convert an electric hot water heater into a hot 
water tank for sparge water.  Does anyone have suggestions on how to do 
this?  Can it be set up as a portable unit; i.e. I would like to be able to 
drain it after use and store it somewhere.  The ability to set my sparge 
water temperature by thermostat and the fact that I wouldn't need both 
another stove and a large vessel make this idea appealing to me.  Ideas?  
Thanks much.
Keith Houck    (hak at lilly.com)
Chapel Hill, NC



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Date: 13 Sep 95 18:25:25 EDT
From: Don Rudolph <DON at nova.mhs.compuserve.com>
Subject: Clovey Weizen/Starter Infection


*****************  Clove in Weizen

In HBD #1830, Mark Roberson (roberson at alkali.chem.utah.edu) asks about 
getting more clove character in his Weizen using Wyeast 3068 
(Weihenstephan strain).  The clove aroma and flavor we all love so much 
in a Weizen is mainly due to the presence of a compound called 4-vinyl 
guiacol (among others).  This phenol is produced in fairly prodigious 
amounts by this strain, along with the "banana" ester.

According to Eric Warner, author of "German Wheat Beers", the metabolic 
pathways in which these compounds are formed are quite different, and the 
factors that produce them in your fermentor depend greatly on the 
conditions of the environment and the wort.

4-vinyl guiacol, the clove phenolic, is produced as a by-product of amino 
acid metabolism.  Therefore, to maximize this compound, maximize proteins 
in the wort.  This can be done by enhancing proteinase/protease activity 
in your mash regimen by including a protein rest, decoction mashing, and 
leaving the wort on the cold trub (i.e. don't rack off or filter the cold 
trub).  

You can also do a few things to enhance ester formation .  First, don't 
over-aerate the wort.  Esters are produced in greatest quantities sans 
O2.  Second, increase the temperature of the ferment, especially during 
the initial lag phase when lipid metabolism is at a peak.  Warner 
suggests pitching at relatively high temps, say 75-80F (this is counter 
to the prevailing notion argued by Jim Busch, et al., that pitching temps 
should be lower, and is true for most styles except maybe weizen), and 
lower temp to the 60-65F range for the primary fermentation within 24 
hours.  Third, use an open fermentation scheme with a 1:1 height/width 
ratio.  Believe it or not, this type of fermentor does increase esters in 
the final product.

To minimize esters, do the opposite.  That is, aerate the sh*t out of the 
cooled wort, pitch at lower temps (this is what Mark's solution was), and 
ferment in an upright corny keg.

Unlike Mark, I like the banana and don't like too much clove.  When my 
first brew turned out too clovey, I racked off the trub, under-aerated, 
and pitched warm.  Perfect-a-moondo.  Good Luck!


*****************  Starters and contamination

I'd like to add to the Yeast Starter thread since I had a disaster occur 
that I would like you to avoid.  I normally make yeast starters from 
slants or "smack packs".  My procedure, like a lot of you, is to boil 
some DME (with hops!), rack to canning jars, and boil the jars for at 
least 20 minutes.  I let the jars cool enough to handle, then pop 'em in 
the frig until brew time.

My disaster occured when I used used lids.  The seals on the used lids 
were not perfect and during the cooling phase, some nasty acetobactor or 
another acetic producing strain made a nice home in my yeast medium.  
Since I refrigerated the jars, no infection was evident when I used them 
for yeast propogation.  The result: malt vinegar in my beer!

My advice, ALWAY LEAVE STARTER MEDIUM AT ROOM TEMP FOR 48 HOURS BEFORE 
USING, and check it for microbial activity (bubbles, ropes, haze) before 
use.

Related to this, HBD'ers have been debating the sanitation of their 
counter-flow chillers. One way to see if you have a contaminated CFC is 
to carefully divert some cooled wort into a sterile jar and incubate the 
covered jar for 48 hours at room temp or higher.  See what grows.  As a 
control, take some hot wort out of the boiler, and do the same thing.

Don Rudolph
Seattle, WA
don at nova.mhs.compuserve.com



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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 23:14:28 GMT
From: Kelly E Jones <kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com>
Subject: Steam RIMS

Kevin McEnhill asked about the possibility of using steam injection to
recirculate wort in a RIMS-type system.  The problem with this is that
the steam, if it is injected into a fluid which is at a temperature
less than boiling, does not "bubble", it condenses and collapses
almost instantly.  using a bubbler would only hasten the condensation.
Of course, you still might get some mild recirculation from convection
(the wort around the steam outlet tube will be much higher, and will
thus rise) but don't expect much of a boost from the steam itself.

Kelly

*****************************************************
Kelly Jones    Intel Portland Technology Development 
Phone: (503) 642-8181             FAX: (503) 591-3597
email: kejones at ptdcs2.intel.com   MS: AL4-57
*****************************************************

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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 1995 23:31:32 -0400
From: RALPHBACON at aol.com
Subject: Source for Cheap and Reliable Wort Chillers

The Home Brewery in Everett, WA has some great immersion type wort chillers,
both indoor (faucet fitting) and outdoor (hose fitting) for $29.95 + a few
bucks for shipping.  The # is 1-800-850-BREW.

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Date: Wed, 13 Sep 95 23:22 CDT
From: pgravel at mcs.com (Philip Gravel)
Subject: Steam induced circulation/Making an immersion chiller/Red beer

===> Kevin McEnhill discusses an idea about heating a mash:

>        The idea is to use the steam from the pressure cooker to add heat to
>the mash and to move the wort through the grain. By running the steam
>through the airstone, it is broken up into thousands of bubbles. When those
>bubles start to move up, the take a little wort with them. By using a
>preferated stack, the wort is able to leave as soon as it clears the grain
>bed.

[snip, snip, snip...]

>        There could be two weaknesses that I see with this system. One there
>might be a problem with HSA, I do not think that the problem is from the
>steam bubles (once the steam starts to build pressure, all of the oxygen
>will be vented), the place that I am worried about is where the bubbles
>brake the surface.

I see several potential problems with this idea.  One of the first is the
assumption that circulation is needed during the mash.  Certainly the mash
needs to be stirred when hot water or steam is added, but the purpose is to
get a uniform temperature distribution.  Second is that mashes are normally
rather thick and the ability to induce water circulation will be limited at
best.

Another problem is has to do with your assumption about how steam behaves
when it enters water.  The steam bubbles will not remain as bubbles, but
rather will collapse almost immediately as the water vapor condenses into
liquid by the cooler water of the mash.  Thus there will be little circul-
ation of water induced by the bubbling itself.  There may be some due to
the thermal gradients where the just heated water due to steam injection
will tend to rise.

Obviously then, there will be no hot side aeration when the steam bubbles
break the surface since there won't be any steam bubbles to rise to the
surface.  This will only happen when the water is at its boiling point
and thus in equilbrium with steam vapor.

Nevertheless, steam injection is a viable way to heat a mash.  You just
need some form of mechanical agigation like stirring.

===> Kenneth K Goodrow inquires about cheap and reliable wort chillers

>I am looking for a wort chiller and am on a tight grad. students' 
>budget.  I have considered making my own, but my time is quite tight as 
>well.  If I ordered through mail, which are the best places to purchase 
>such an appratus?  800 #s?  Prices?

It shouldn't take longer than a hour to make an immersion chiller once
you've assembled the materials you need.

===> Randy Barnes asks about getting red color in beers:

>     What makes a 'red' ale?

Using 1/8 -  1/4 lb of roasted barley or Belgian Special B malt in a
5 gallon batch.

- -- 
Phil
_____________________________________________________________
Philip Gravel   Lisle, Illinois               pgravel at mcs.com

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Date: Thu, 7 Sep 95 21:24:03 EDT
From: Brent Irvine <brenirvi at village.ca>
Subject: Poor Service Comments

Jay Reeves:

It was with some disappointment that I read your comments in HBD #1825. You
mentioned over the digest about the 'bad service' you got from a certain mail
order house. It seems you desperately needed a carboy, yet had waited until
the last few days to order it. Why not purchase locally, anyway, and be
guaranteed you'd have the item? Or borrow?

You see, Jay, it may not have been incompetence or poor service, but perhaps
they were busy with other orders, or were out of stock. I think it somewhat in
bad taste to spread bad comments about a company unless gross negligence or
there has been an incidence of very bad manners/policy. From what you have
said, a carboy arrived a few days later than you wanted. Not the end of the
world, while your comments could have lasting consequences to an otherwise
fine irganization.

In case anyone is interested, I have absolutley NO ties with the corporation
that was mentioned. It was in Texas; I am in northern Ontario, Canada - the
other side of the continent.

Brent Irvine
Lake Commando B&B
Cochrane, Ontario
*Home of the Polar Bear Express*

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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 08:28:43 -0500 (EDT)
From: greg at kgn.ibm.com (Greg Holton)
Subject: All Grain Starters

> 
> 
> Date:         Tue, 12 Sep 95 15:01:23 EDT
> From: CGEDEN at NERVM.NERDC.UFL.EDU
> Subject:      All-grain starter wort?
> 
> Todd Mansfield has found that his starters do best when he uses all-
> grain wort, presumably doing back-to-back batches or saving aliquots
> of his wort for future use in starters.
> 
> Interesting.  How would you do this if you were starting from scratch?  A
> mini-mash of 0.5 lb malted barley with a pint of water at 150 deg. for one
> hour, sparged to get a total of 16-24 oz. wort?  Has anyone ever tried this
> sort of thing?  It wouldnt be much more bother than breaking open a bag
> of DME, measuring and spilling extract powder all over the kitchen!

That's what I do and have had excellent results (it's also cheap).  I brew
10 gal batches, so I use a 1/2 gal starter, made with about 1 lb. of malt
mashed on the stovetop.  I do a protein rest at about 120 degrees to  help
boost yeast nutrients (FAN).  At $.30/lb., it's a lot cheaper than buying
dried malt and I always have it around anyway, so I don't go out of my
way to buy additional supplies for culturing.

> 
> Chris Geden
> Gainesville, FL
> Where summer brewing is a way of life year-round
> 

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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 09:16:51 -0400
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Minor correction RE: Warmed beer?

I just read my own post

> <snip>I remember a scene early in the movie "Lion in Winter."  The
> plotters against Henry VIII met in a tavern, and one of
> them pulled a hot poker out of the fire, <snip>

and realized that I had the right movie, but the wrong title.  It was "A
Man for All Seasons."  Great movie.  Thought I ought to fess up before
someone called me on it.  Now back to the beer discussions.

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu


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Date: 14 Sep 95 09:10:14 EDT
From: Jay Reeves <73362.600 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: St. Pats reply

Lynn O'Conner writes:

>Jay Reeves wrote on the Homebrew Digest regarding an order he received
>from our company.  He placed an order for a 7 gallon carboy on a Monday
>and it was shipped via UPS the following day.

Sorry Lynn, but that is not true.

I ordered the carboy on Saturday August 26 (I should know - I ordered it on
my way out the door to the Southern Brewers Festival in Chattanooga that
Saturday AM)  The salesperson on the phone *said* it would be shipped the
following Monday.  When it did not arrive by the following Friday, I placed a
call to St. Pats.  The sales person replied it was shipped the day before
(Thurs August 31- 4 days later) because they had a backlog of orders.
The tracking info from UPS (yes, I have it) says it was picked up at St. Pats
on August 31.  I am sending a letter with zerox copies of this stuff to St.
Pats.

Others have replied privately to me about service with St. Pats.  I asked them
to
post it to the HBD, but they did not.  It's time to take this off-line, so if
anyone's
interested in seeing these post, minus the names, contact me.  Lynn, you have
my address if you care to discuss this further.

				-Jay Reeves
				Huntsville, Alabama, USA


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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 95 9:21:50 EDT
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: TSP

In  HOMEBREW Digest #1831 rlabor at lsumc.edu (Ronald J. La Borde) asks:
> 
> I have purchased TSP in a local giant supermarket.  I was planing to use it
> for general glass bottle and carboy cleaning.  Upon reading the product
> label I read that the product was not to be used on glass.  WHAT!!!!!
  [ ... ] 
> The label read pure TSP so I do not think the product had any other
> additives.  This just dosen't make sense - hard to rinse off.  

And it is contrary to the experiment I did a few months ago. Trisodium 
phosphate is extremely easy to rinse off any surface. In particular there 
is absolutely no residue after one single rinse of either regular glass 
or Pyrex that had soaked 24 hours in 1 M technical grade trisodium 
phosphate. 

I can only conclude that paint store TSP is not trisodium phosphate. Does 
the label actually give the chemical formula or just uses the 
abbreviation TSP?

Pierre

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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 06:28:19 -0700
From: jrus at suned1.Nswses.Navy.Mil (James Russ)
Subject: 10 Gallon Request

Could someone in this collective pool of knowledge please inform me on where
I can purchase a 10 Gallon Gott cooler in the LA area?  Somewhere close to
the SF Valley would be preferable.  I have been on a quest to many stores in
Ventura county and cannot find them anywhere, so I am expanding my search
area.  

Thanks!
 ___________________________
|                           \          _____
| James Russ                 \          \   \__     _____
| jrus at suned1.nswses.navy.mil \__________\   \/______\___\__________
| Tomahawk Systems Engineer   /           \/_/              TLAM    `-.
| (805)982-8326 Fax 985-9507 /            `+++++-----,----,-----------'
|___________________________/                      _/____/



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 14:23:07 +0200
From: diagen at netvision.net.il (Nir Navot)
Subject: re:All-grain starter wort/Micros in France

on 12 Sep Chris Geden wrote:
>How would you do this if you were starting from scratch?  A mini-mash of
>0.5 lb >malted barley with a pint of water at 150 deg. for one hour,
>sparged to get a >total of 16-24 oz. wort?

Yes!!! Let me introduce the MiniMasher(tm)!!! Just take your old Thermos
bottle, pour into it your 0.5 lb of ground malt, a pint to 1.5 pints water
at 150, mix the contents with that wooden thing, close the top, wait an
hour - done. No change in temp, no mixing of mash, full conversion.

- -------------------------------------------------------------------

Does anyone know of Microbrewery/Brewpubs in Southern France?

Nir Navot
"WeBrew in HeBrew!!!"



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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:48:33 -0400 (EDT)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Kettle boils/Red Seal/Goose

Charlie continues on the kettle boiling issues:

<However with the tiny ammounts that homebrewers brew, we can approximate an 
<increment of the continous process if there is an advantage. I can go to 
<140C "instantly" as I have a 3000kW steam boiler! However it is more 
<convenient to go from 100C to 140c in 10 minutes with a 35kW gas burner and 
<then flash cool to 80C by releasing the pressure and hooking up a 15litre/ 
<min diaphram pump and lowering the pressure to 1 ATM.

Dont get me wrong, Im a gadget nut and like to build some brew toys.  I keep
reading this about high temp boils and keep thinking, "here is a toy/gadget 
looking for an application".  Why?  It seems to me that you have designed a 
wonderful, flexible brewery but cant be content with normal brewing processes
and want to emulate some giant brewer.  There is basically no need for any of
this.  The destruction of the extremely small population of spores that can
survive above 100C has virtually zero significance to producing clean beer.
If you are making yeast culture media, then pressure cooking is nice.  The
goal of wort boiling is not complete sterilization but wort sanitation so
that when a clean viable yeast population is introduced, a clean beer of
desired characteristics is obtained.  This is primarily a function of 
yeast starters and wort composition, the spores have no fighting chance. 

If you have a steam boiler, steam heating is very gentle and will give
less caramelization than direct fired kettles.

If DMS is the primary concern, this can be minimized by choosing malt that
has low concentrations of SMM precursors.  English pale ale malt is a 
good choice.  Also, if making ales DMS is of less concern due to fermentation
effects.  Oxidation reactions and the minimizing of these is certainly good
brewing practice, but I dont see where pressure boiling is required here. 

Keith asks about Red Seal Ale, and excellent west coast hoppy ale, what
I call New American Ale.  Use Centennial and Cascades and experiment, and
ferment with American Ale yeast.

Rick asks about Wild Goose and its buttery/smokey notes.  Thats classic 
diacetyl and some phenolic effects, but primarily diacetyl.  As was noted
recently here, Goose and all Pugsley operations use the Ringwood ale yeast
which is a notorious diacetyl producer.  If controlled and served fresh it 
can be delightful, but I find most Goose beers exceed what I can handle in
diacetyl levels.

Good brewing,

Jim Busch
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

"DE HOPPEDUIVEL DRINKT MET ZWIER 'T GEZONDE BLOND HOPPEBIER!"

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Date: Thu, 14 Sep 1995 10:16:42 -0500
From: djones at iex.com (Douglas R. Jones)
Subject: Re: St. Pats/Gadgets/Misc.

Edmund C. Hack wrote:
>
>A few new gadgets have arrived in town at the brew shops from Listermann 
>and I'm looking for comments: First, a siphon starter - a little ball 
>valve thing. Anyone used one of these? I used to use a 
>similar-but-not-identical siphon starter in cleaning my aquarium, but it 
>didn't work well. Second, a min-lauter tun/hopback. It is a 1 gal. or so 
>food plastic pail with a Phalse bottom, tubing and clamp. It looks like 
>it would hold a few pounds of grain for partial mash recipes. I'm doing 
>partial grain batches rightr now, and sparging the grain in my colander 
>suspended over a large pot is a real pain. This looks like it could make 
>it a lot easier.

I have one and love it! I used to do my partial mashes by sparging through a
colander. What a pain! This this is easy, cheap (compared to time) and
really works! By it. It will hold 5 lbs of grain.

>BTW, to those of you who have not done partial mash brewing, try it. It 
>doesn't take that much longer and the beer is much better. I use Miller's 
>method - I put the grain and heated water in a large Dutch oven, put 
>it in an oven preheated to 150 degrees and wait about an hour. The mash 
>stabilizes at about 154 degrees. I put the whole mess into a colander, 
>sparge with preheated water, recirculate a bit to clear the runnings, put 
>the wort into the brewpot with the extract and go on with the boil. The 
>difference in the quality of the beer is quite noticeable. I have made a 
>couple of ESBs and American Pale Ales this way and get better head and lace, 
>more complex flavors and a richer mouthfeel. My first pale ale was all extract 
>and was OK, but the partial mash beer are a real notch up. Not as good as 
>Bass, Anchor or Young's, but I'm getting there.

I couldn't agree more! My second biggest improvement in my beer (after
liquid yeast) was partial mashes. I add 5 lbs of grain to the strike water,
stir for a bit, and place in a warm oven for an hour. Then into the
Listerman MiniLauter Tun, sparge and boil. Works great!

Doug
- --------------------------------------------------
'I am a traveler of       |   Douglas R. Jones
     both Time and Space' |   IEX Corporation
        Led Zeppelin      |   (214)301-1307
                          |   djones at iex.com
- --------------------------------------------------


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1832, 09/15/95