FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Long Lager Lags. (Jim Cave)
  Icecream Maker to Wort Stirer (Raybans7)
  Juveniles, beer, and the gestapo... ("Pat Babcock")
  molasses (Mark Ruhe)
  10/10 -- A Day in the Life of Cyberspace (http://www.1010.org/) (Bits)
  Brewing Ingredient Categorization (Kirk R Fleming)
  New Brewery (Bird)
  Announcement, Bavarian Lager and Graf VIennas... ("Pat Babcock")
  RE Honey in Beer (Tim Fields)
  Re: SS Keg and welding (hollen)
  Wyeast 1214 Abbey at 53^F and still "banana heaven"??  Help?? (Robert S Wallace)
  Extraction Efficiency, Agitation, and Recirc (Kirk R Fleming)
  All-Grain Burner ("James Linscheid")
  Composting Grains (IHomeBrew)
  Brewing Software (CHARLIE SCANDRETT)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 8:52:18 -0700 (PDT)
From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
Subject: Long Lager Lags.


	Mark Thompson is concerned about the length of lag in his
lager fermentations.  Mark:  The cause is underpitching and the cure is
to pitch more yeast.  How much?  The equivalent of  50% of the yeast
recovered from a primary fermentation.  The same concern applies to
ales, but the problem is accentuated in lagers, with the colder temperature
of the fermentation.

	Dan McConnell is the main proponent of adequate pitching.  His advice
is simply to plan your brewing schedule for several batches of beer and
repitch the yeast from one fermentation to the next. I've been doing this
whenever possible and found that it is even more important for lagers.
It isn't unusual to find lag times of several days if you are only pitching
a starter the equivalent of 5% of the wort you are pitching.  

	Having said that, one of my best dunkels ever which won several 
times in the lager class had a lag of several days.  Now, I reserve wort
from each batch of beer and freeze it.  This lets me get a pitching rate
of about 10% of the volume of the beer and it is adequate to start the
first batch.  To do this you need to keep several batches of frozen wort
on hand to match the beer you are brewing.  These need to be boiled 
first for 10 minutes or so to sterilize prior to making up the starter.

			Jim Cave

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Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 14:31:04 -0400
From: Raybans7 at aol.com
Subject: Icecream Maker to Wort Stirer

While back home, I was visting my old friend who got me interested in
homebrewing.  He
was showing off his set-up in his basement.  The thing that most impressed me
was his home
made wort stirer.  He has taken an icecream maker motor and built a set of
adjustible
brackets that set in either side of  the stove.  He drilled the shaft, tapped
it, and put a set
screw in it.  He has two differnt stiring attachments for it.  We didn't brew
any beer but he
showed it off and I can see that it would really be handy.  He also mentioned
that you need
to secure the cord away from the burner.  His extention cord is dropped from
the ceiling and
the moter has a about a 2" cord and a store bought cord end on it.  He
wouldn't admit to
burning up the cord but I pretty sure he did!

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Date:          Sat, 7 Oct 1995 15:06:11 +0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject:       Juveniles, beer, and the gestapo...

Just a data point: 

I remember a case a while back in Michigan (last year?) where a
father was brought up on charges of child abuse when a neighbor
witnessed him giving sips of beer to his young child and reported
him to the the department of social services. As I recall, the charge
'stuck', and the child was removed from the household. I don't know
any other extenuating circumstances (if any existed), but this was
enough for me to realize that anything, no matter how innocent you
may think it may be, can be used against you in a court of law.

Based on this, I recommend keeping your child's beer sipping history
a 'dark little secret' or, perhaps, the gestapo might knock on YOUR
door...

Pat Babcock                 | "Beer is my obsession, and I'm late for
President, Brew-Master      |  therapy..." -PGB
and Chief Taste-Tester      | "Let a good beer be the exclamation point 
Drinkur Purdee pico Brewery |  at the end of your day as every sentence 
pbabcock at oeonline.com       |  requires proper punctuation." -PGB
SYSOP on The HomeBrew University - Motor City Campus BBS (313)397-9758
Visit the Homebrew Flea Market via http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock 

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Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 15:16:39 -0700
From: mtruhe at ucdavis.edu (Mark Ruhe)
Subject: molasses

I'm interested in adding molasses to a porter but have never used it
before.  I'm going to remake a fairly well rounded porter(OG56) in hopes of
getting it just right and I thought the addition of a bit of molasses might
be interesting.  Any info on the kind (blackstrap, heavy, light???) and how
much, as well as priming with molasses would be greatly appreciated.
Private e-mail is ok.
                                        Mark (mtruhe at ucdavis.edu)



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Date: Sat, 7 Oct 95 23:48:37 -0400
From: Bits <bits at tenten-mail.1010.org>
Subject: 10/10 -- A Day in the Life of Cyberspace (http://www.1010.org/)

Hi,

I saw your email address on a web page and thought you might be
able to help us. We're looking for on-line pioneers to help us
capture a global portrait of life in the new, digital renaissance.

On 10/10 the Media Lab is hosting "A Day in the Life of Cyberspace."
We are trying to find people whose lives have been touched deeply
by digital media and the Net:
  - kids, teachers, families, newlyweds, pets on the Web;
  - people in war-torn areas like Bosnia or Tibet
    who can stay in touch with humanity because of the Net;
  - the youngest and oldest users
  - people in every country on earth,
  - astronauts in orbit (we will link to the
    space shuttle on 10/10 if the launch proceeds)
  - ....
For instance, my Aunt Min is 80 and has her checkup every month by
holding a telephone to her chest: the remote computer diagnoses
her pacemaker!  Or, during the riots in Tiananmen Square, real news
reached the outside world first through e-mail networks.  The Pope's
mass on 10/8 will be "cybercast" into the Web.

If you can help contribute to this, by sending pictures, sounds,
or words, or if you know someone who might, please browse
http://www.1010.org/.

You can also send mail to info at 1010.org for an automatic help
response (Tell it: "send description" for a longer explanation).

By the way, keep watching the web site for daily changes--with real
surprises on the 10th!

Please help spread the word!

Thanks,

         - Steve



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Date: Sat, 7 Oct 1995 22:05:07 -0600
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: Brewing Ingredient Categorization

I've been building a data model for a Suds-like application.  Because
different categories of brewing ingredients have different attributes,
I need to define what those categories are. Also, I'd like to put all
possible ingredients in a minimum set of categories.

I currently have these categories:

1) things that contribute sg and color 
2) things that contribute IBUs
3) things that contribute neither sg or IBUs

Category 1 includes all grains (malted or not), malt extracts of any 
kind, any non-grain sources of sugar (starch adjuncts, fruits, honey,
molasses, etc).  Attributes of things in this category include:  sg,
attenuation limit, color contribution.

Category 2 includes hop products of any kind.  Attributes of things
in this category include %alpha acid content and "type" or "format".

Category 3 includes spices and water treatments.  The only attribute
here is the item name, although color contribution may be an option.

The main (if not only) reason to distinguish these categories is to
associate the proper set of attributes for each category of ingredient,
and to prompt for the input of that set depending on what ingredient
category is selected.  IOW, when you add in a new hop type you wouldn't
be prompted for "SRM:" color.

Do these categories seem ill defined or incomplete?  Any comments
regarding this scheme would be greatly appreciated via private mail.  


KRF Colorado Springs
- ------------------------------------------------------
"We can help the cause of pale ale both by drinking it
 and brewing it as much as possible."     Terry Foster
- ------------------------------------------------------


Return to table of contents


Date: Sat, 7 Oct 95 23:21:43 MDT
From: roberts at Rt66.com (Bird)
Subject: New Brewery


Hello, fellow brewers. I believe the last time I posted to this list
was over five years ago (not counting any comments on hopped-up beer
engines). That was also the last time I brewed: a series of moves,
too-small kitchens and having all my brew stuff buried way at the back
of a storage unit kept me from my pastime. That has all changed now --
I have plenty of room in the insulated garage of my new house, and
I've taken the opportunity to rebuild my set-up from scratch, and if
you'll pardon a longish post, I'd like to describe it to you.

(BTW: I apparently have several recipes published in "Cat's Meow". I say
apparently because I've never seen the book, but I still get at least
one email message a month from someone with a question or comment one
one of the recipes: Tina Marie Porter and Tres Gatos Ale are two that
I've had a lot of feedback on. Cheers, enjoy!)

Home brewing has changed in the past 5 years: propagation of liquid
yeasts, roller mills, and 15-gallon tower systems have all become common
technology to home brewers. I've also noticed that the general level of
expertise resident on this list has increased significantly. Having the
opportunity to rebuild from scratch, I decided to do it really right
this time.  Borrowing from ideas presented in "how-to" micro brewery
books, as well as from some of the knowledgeable folks on HBD I've put
together a system with which I am very happy. 

The finished brewery is a 15-gallon capacity gravity flow tower system.
I located a liquor store that agreed to sell me 15.5 gallon kegs for $15
each: I bought four and cut the tops off of three of them. (The fourth
is my primary fermenter when I brew a ten-gallon batch.) I cut a 1/2
inch hole at the base of two of the kegs and had a stainless steel
fitting TIG welded on the outside of each keg. A ball valve, some 3/8
copper tubing and a flare fitting completed the hot water tank. I
located a source of heavy gauge stainless screen (~1/16 inch thick) and
a guy with access to a lathe and plasma torch. $30 later I had a false
bottom for the mash tun. Some more 3/8 copper tubing & fittings and the
tun was set to flow into the kettle.  Three Cajun Cooker-style propane
burners supply heat to all vessels.  One cooker is about 1 1/2 foot
tall, and the other two are about 3 1/2 feet tall; I have them set up so
that the top of the mash tun is even with the base of the hot water
tank, and the base of the tun is even with the top of the kettle. 

I scrounged around some salvage yards and came home with a prize: a 1/3
HP electric motor with an all-brass centrifugal pump (it cost me $25,
but it easily retailed for $300 when it was new). I use the pump to get
water up into the hot water tank, and to pump ten gallons of cooled wort
into the 15.5 gallon fermenter (the hole on one of those kegs takes a
#11 stopper). Do not, unless your name is Arnold, try to pick up a 15.5
gallon stainless steel beer keg full of wort and try to lift it four
feet up onto the counter by yourself... Get a friend to help, or pump
the wort there. 

I've had the pleasure at this point to have brewed 8 batches with the
new system. The first three were five-gallon batches so that I could get
the feel of the system: I was not sure how difficult it was going to be
to control the heat in the mash tun. It turns out that the mass of the
vessel itself provides quite a thermal flywheel. It is only sometimes
necessary during an hour-long infusion mash to add a little heat to
maintain 152 - 155 F. 

The end result: I am pleased to announce that the extra special bitter
is freely flowing in the Roberts' household these days... 

In a future post I'll describe a procedure that I'm using which allows
one to safely propagate and freeze pure yeast culture slurries and
successfully revive them later to make starters. 

P.S. The next addition to the brewery will be a roller mill that can be
motorized. Any suggestions? 

- -- 

"24 hours in a day...24 beers in a case...coincidence?"

Doug Roberts
roberts at rt66.com

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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 10:03:32 +0500
From: "Pat Babcock" <pbabcock at oeonline.com>
Subject: Announcement, Bavarian Lager and Graf VIennas...

This is attempt three! Didn't get confirmation for the previous two, 
so I must assume they're somewhere lost in cybeerspace. Got 
confirmation for the last submission I made, so here goes...

AN ANNOUNCEMENT... 

Ken Schwartz's (KennyEddy at aol.com) Fermentation Chiller Plans are now
available on my homepage in their entirity - drawings, et al! If you
are "WEB Capable", for the sake of his sanity :-) please access this
page rather than asking him to send it (URL:
http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock , select Howdy, Homebrewer, then page
down to "Handy Documents" - I know, I know! I'm working on a "faster"
index...)

AND A QUESTION...

I recently made a Graf-Style Vienna using Bavarian Lager yeast
rather than my usual choice of British Ale. This recipe really kicked
out the DMS during fermentation (~48 F 2 mos), and the resulting
product, though the underlying "Negra Modelo" flavor profile seems
evident, is LADEN with DMS. It has also been described as 'soapy',
'gassy', and as 'having that "home brewed" flavor'. I'll add to this
that it has a 'pepsi' head - fizz and it's gone. When rinsing the
glass, the water foams up and holds, indicating (to me, anyway) that
this beer has good heading potential. Bottle conditioned for 1 month
 at  68 F; prime was DME, grain bill wasn't spectacular. For ten
gallons: 15.5 lbs pale 2 row, 1/2 lb caramel, 1/2 lb 20 L crystal,
1/2 lb dark crystal, 6 oz black malt. 13.33 gal of sparge/mash
liquor was treated w/ 2T CaSO4 (poor choice, in retrospect. SHould
have used the carbonate...) and 1-3/4 t lactic acid. pH 5.57.  at 
160 F. Mashed in  at  140 F, held for 30 minutes. Boosted to 154 F held
for 60 minutes. Boost to 160 F, held for 15 minutes. Sparged  at  170 F
for 60 minutes, collecting about 12 gallons of 1.045 wort (31.76
pt*g/p) in the boiler. Boiled for (Yikes! Think I found the source
of the defect!) 45 minutes (according to my notes...) to ten gallons
of 1.053 wort. Hop additions 1.25 oz tettnanger  at  45 minutes
remaining, 1 oz Styrian Goldings at 30 mins, and 1.25 oz Saaz at 15
mins remaining.

I've since remade this recipe using German Pilsener malt as the
base, no CaSO4, and with a 100 minute boil. DMS was still evident 
from the airlock until I iced down the fermenter. If nothing else, 
this lends credence to the "boil long and open" thread that Jim 
Busch, Algis Korzonas, et al were weaving a month or two ago. But the 
question remains: Does Wyeast 2206 require particularly low 
fermentation temperatures to do a clean job???

I await the infusion of your knowledge. (Or would that be a decoction?)


Pat Babcock                 | "Beer is my obsession, and I'm late for
President, Brew-Master      |  therapy..." -PGB
and Chief Taste-Tester      | "Let a good beer be the exclamation point 
Drinkur Purdee pico Brewery |  at the end of your day as every sentence 
pbabcock at oeonline.com       |  requires proper punctuation." -PGB
SYSOP on The HomeBrew University - Motor City Campus BBS (313)397-9758
Visit the Homebrew Flea Market via http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock 

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Date: 08 Oct 95 11:29:06 EDT
From: Tim Fields <74247.551 at compuserve.com>
Subject: RE Honey in Beer

I received this reply to my recent posted question about honey.  With the 
author's OK, I am reposting it for general consumption.

From:	thomasd at uchastings.edu (Douglas Thomas)

I have found that a very good light clover honey has never affected my
meads, but a darker one often gives a strange off flavor unless boiled
and skimmed.  Fruit honeys are the best, but for a dark brew (I make a
spiced blackberry melomel with it) I use Blue Curl honey.  I can only
find it coming out of the Central Valley of California, but it has a very
fine taste with a kick at the end.  Maybe try that!  Orange honey is
expensive, and is not often very orangey.  If you live near a independant
bee keeper, ask them about the individual characteristics of each honey. 
I had the luxory of having a friend whose father kept bees when I was
young.  My family received 5 pounds of honey a month from him and I
learned about the differend tastes.  Pine honey is a nice dark honey with
a reddish cast.  Strong!!!!  Eucalyptus honey I would only recommend for
eating.  It has an astringent quality one must learn to like.  The sage
honeys can give asthmatic and pollen sensitive people reactions. 
Finally, try cappings honey, or crystalized honey. Easy to measure and a
very distinct, potent taste
Hope this helps

D. Thomas


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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 11:10:29 -0700
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: SS Keg and welding

>>>>> "Jeff" == Reynolds, Jeffrey S <jsr0 at NIORDS1.EM.CDC.GOV> writes:

Jeff> I've recently purchased a Firestone stainless steel keg to
Jeff> convert into a boiler/kettle and have a few questions.  I've
Jeff> read the keg faq and it states that oxy-acetylene cannot be used
Jeff> for welding stainless steel.  I talked to someone at a machine
Jeff> shop that confirmed this and said it was impossible to weld ss
Jeff> with oxy-acetylene.  I know a retired man who used to weld for a
Jeff> living and said that he has welded ss with a torch many times
Jeff> (but not using Tig or Mig).  What's the deal with oxy-acetylene?
Jeff> If my acquaintance can weld the keg with a torch using ss wire,
Jeff> will it be safe?

It surely is not impossible to weld SS with an OA torch, it just does
not come out well at all for *food grade* applications.  There will be
a ton of slag embedded in the weld.  You need shielding gas to protect
the weld area when it is heated or the SS will oxidize very badly.
TIB leaves beautiful clean welds that clean up smooth.  MIG is not
good for welding kegs either because in most cases, you are welding a
thick coupling to a thin keg wall and you need to be able to put the
majority of the heat on the coupling and the filler rod right in the
joint.  With MIG, the filler rod is where the heat goes and you run
a very high risk of either burning through the keg wall, or not
penetrating the coupling.  It can be done, I have done it, but it took
many passes to get the weld to hold water.

Jeff> The keg I have has a bung hole in a piece of steel with a seam
Jeff> around it.  Also the keg itself has two seams running completely
Jeff> around it horizontally.  Can I assume that these welds will be
Jeff> safe even under the heat of a propane burner (i.e. that these
Jeff> welds are Tig or Mig and are safe) ?  Or should I look for a
Jeff> seamless keg?  

No such thing as a seamless keg.  Welded seams are as strong as the
base metal if done right and kegs which at one time held pressure are
done right.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119       Email: hollen at vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer     Vigra, Inc.  San Diego, California

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Date: Sun, 08 Oct 1995 16:17:32 CDT
From: Robert S Wallace <rwallace at iastate.edu>
Subject: Wyeast 1214 Abbey at 53^F and still "banana heaven"??  Help??

HBD'ers:

     Having posted this to r.c.b. and receiving no replies, I hope to get
some feedback about a recent "observation" I made following my last attempt
at an Abbey-style Belgian ale.

     After mashing with virtually an all DWC grainbill, a wort with an OG of
about 1.072 was fermented at 53 to 58^F with the Wyeast 1214 Abbey strain
(Chimay).  The freshly pitched wort was aerated (aquar. pump/airstone), and
fermentation proceeded normally.  I have read here, and in other brewing
forums, that this strain should be fermented below 60^F to avoid the isoamyl
acetate/banana ester production in high amounts.  After seconadary
fermentation (all in glass) at bottling, the banana 'scent' (stench?) was
quite apparent, and other than this the flavor of the finished still beer
was wonderful.  I have heard that following conditioning the isoamyl
component in the aroma/flavor profile is attenuated.

     My quetions are:

 -  Is it true that there is a reduction in the isoamyl acetate levels during
     bottle conditioning?  Does it rely on yeast activity or is it an
     abiotic process?
 -  Have other people experienced this despite <60^F fermentation?
 -  For how long must I "lager" (condition) this ale?
 -  Will the beer always have a 'banana' overtone? (I find this detracting.)
   
     Advice and/or reports of parallel experiences would be helpful.  Any
Belgian Beer Brewers know how to bash the banana bite of my brown beautiful
beer?

Thanks!

Rob Wallace 

- ---
Robert S. Wallace
Assistant Professor of Botany                     "In cerevisia veritas est."
Dept. of Botany - Iowa State Univ.
Ames, Iowa 50011-1020             rwallace at iastate.edu       FAX: 515-294-1337
+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_ooo000ooo_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+_+

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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 14:18:10 -0600
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: Extraction Efficiency, Agitation, and Recirc

Sometime back I was talking about how my extraction dropped by about
20% after moving from a stir-in-the-pot technique to recirculating
with a false bottom.  To get accurate predictions I had been using an
efficiency number of 83% in SudsW, which worked quite well batch
after batch.  Then, after going to the false bottom and recirculating
exclusively, that number had to be tweaked down to 65-68%, and most
recently, a disturbing 55% (unfair--I used a batch sparge).

I decided with today's brew to recirculate to maintain temperature (i
have no choice with a false bottom) but to not worry about setting the
grain bed until the last 15-20 minutes of the mash.  For the rest of
the mash I occassionally stirred with a spoon, as well as returning 
the wort to the top of the bed with great vigor (as much as possible
without aerating).

To my complete astonishment, I had to pump up the efficiency number
in SudsW to 89% to make actuals agree with predicteds (volume and
gravity) in the kettle.

With the exception of the lowest extraction number I've ever gotten
(using a batch sparge to save time), my records indicate that the only
difference between the very low yields and the high yields is the 
stirring of the mash (or the gross disturbing of the grain bed surface).
Again, I'm finding about 20% difference.

Naturally I'm pleased, because I was able to keep the sparge down to
about 20-25 minutes with moderate gravity final runnings, yet still
get a good deal from the grain.  OTOH, I'm just baffled that relatively
little mechanical agitation improves yield this much.

If you have data indicating similar or contradictory results would
you please email me?  I'd appreciate even a brief msg--although there's
no need to say, "Duh".  :-)

Oh, the other surprising result was that I could seriously abuse the
grain bed and still get clear or nearly clear runnings.  Once the mash
reached about 145F (roughly) things ran clear despite any rough handling
of the grain bed, with the exception of outright stirring.  Grain bed
thickness was about 7", with a 'thin' mash.
KRF Colorado Springs
- ------------------------------------------------------
"We can help the cause of pale ale both by drinking it
 and brewing it as much as possible."     Terry Foster
- ------------------------------------------------------


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Date:          Tue, 12 Sep 1995 21:59:48 +0000
From: "James Linscheid" <jlinsche at teleport.com>
Subject:       All-Grain Burner

I am getting ready to do my first all-grain batch and was wondering 
what size burner to get. Right now, the only readily available burner 
is a 30,000 BTU Camp Chef. Should I hold out for a 100,000 BTU unit? 
I am using a 1/2 barrel keg as my boiler, and will be doing 10 gallon 
batches in the future.

Thanks for any advice in advance!
James

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Date: Sun, 8 Oct 1995 22:27:53 -0400
From: IHomeBrew at aol.com
Subject: Composting Grains

Hi,

Does anyone have any experience composting their spent brewing grains?  If
so, I'd like to hear about your method.  My trash consistently appears to be
a 99% mixture of used coffee grounds and spent brewing grains.  I know there
is a better way to dispose of these items.  Your input is appreciated.
 Prost!

Clark Ritchie
Tacoma, WA

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Date: Mon, 9 Oct 95 13:08:56 +1000
From: CHARLIE SCANDRETT <merino at ozemail.com.au>
Subject: Brewing Software

I must have a "hit me!" face, I'm really asking for it this time!

Could everyone post me their opinion of the best brewing software and why? 

Yes, yes I know about the inaccuracy of IBU calculations, I use a dartboard for 
that. (when my eye is in an IBU of 150 is not out of the question!)
 Is there real value in the rest of it? Or should I stick to my calculator and 
charts?
I'm a bit isolated out here and seldom pick up other brewer's opinions anywhere 
but on the HBD. The other serious brewers I know are my fathers WW2 generation 
who would use a slide rule if they used anything other than scales and an 
experienced eye and nose.
Thanks,
Charlie  (Brisbane, Australia)

"It needs some more, I don't know what yet, but it needs  more of it"  Norm (82 
years, still brewing)







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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1852, 10/09/95