FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Pete's Wicked Ale Clone Recipe (Tim Fields)
  WYeast 2112 (Todd W. Roat)
  Propane/Zahm Tank/Yeast (A. J. deLange)
  re: Washed Yeast (Eric W. Miller)
  A  curiosity... (Eugene Sonn)
  Labels ("Herb B. Tuten")
  Roasting Grains / Saison yeast / Overnight Mashes ("John McCafferty")
  Upside-down carboy fermentation ("David C. Rinker")
  Converting Propane burners to Natural Gas burners (Mike White)
  Re: Sytles and more ("Richard Scotty")
  Robust Porter Guidelines (Rob Reed)
  Oakland Water/Oatmeal (novices)
  Indoor brewing ("Taber, Bruce")
  How to use spent grains (Rich Gibson)
  on-demand sparge/NA beer/acidifying sparge/styles/pH/big 3/Fischer (Algis R Korzonas)
  Attn: First time brewers. (Russell Mast)
  Everything 0/3 (Russell Mast)
  Everything 1/3 (Russell Mast)
  Everything 2/3 (Russell Mast)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: 30 Oct 95 07:23:24 EST
From: Tim Fields <74247.551 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Pete's Wicked Ale Clone Recipe

kiesow at ibm.net ( Kim Kiesow Raleigh, NC) recently posted looking for a 
Pete's Wicked Ale clone recipe.  Here is one from Mother Earth News, Dec 
'94 or Jan '95 issue:

Pete's Wicked Ale (5 Gal):

Grains:
8 oz 2-row Klages Malt
8 oz 60 Lovibond Crystal Malt
8 oz Special Roast Malt
4 oz Chocolate Malt

Extract:
6.6 lbs Northwestern Gold Malt Extract (unhopped)

Bittering Hops:
1.5 oz Brewer's Gold Pellets

Aroma Hops:
1 oz Brewer's Gold Pellets

Yeast:
Wyeast 1056 American Ale

Dry Hops:
 .5 oz Brewer's

I received this via a friend, with no brewing notes.  Having not made it, 
here is what I would suggest:

Add grains to a grain bag, steep in 2 Gal water at 155F for 45 mins to 1 
hr, stirring occasionally.  Remove grains, add extract and bring to a boil.

Total boil time 75 mins.
 -Boil for 15 mins, then add bittering hops.
 -Continue for 50 mins, then add aroma hops (10 mins before knockoff)

Cool to pitching temp, pitch yeast (build a starter for the yeast)

Add dry hops after fermentation has completed, so the escaping gas will 
not carry your hop aroma out of the airlock.  I would probably ferment in 
primary for a week, rack to secondary and add the dry hops after activity 
had subsided.  Others have suggested using primary only, just wait till 
all fermentation activity has subsided.



"Reeb!"   Tim Fields ... Fairfax, VA
                   timf at relay.com (non-brewing time)
                timfields at aol.com (weekends)
         74247.551 at compuserve.com (weekends)



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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 07:40:26 -0500
From: troat at one.net (Todd W. Roat)
Subject: WYeast 2112

"Attempting" to brew a Califormia Common beer.  Is California lager yeast
2112 best fermented at lager temps, or is it a strain meant to ferment at
ale temps?  Is there an optimum temp?  Also with this yeast, after pitching
the yeast is the beer to be kept at 75 degrees until ferment begins and then
lowered to lager temps?  I pitched at 68 degrees.  At first indication of
CO2 (48 hours later - no starter) I lowered temp to 48 degrees. At  54 hours
very minimal yeast moved up top.  I use ice cooling so temp is variable
throughout the day :^(  ranging from 44 degrees in morning when I add ice to
55 degrees when I check and notice temp too high.  Finally, main question:
I cant tell if yeast is beginning because Ive recooled it enough or because
thru the night it has a chance to rre-warms up to 55.   Thats it for vaguely
prefaced questions.  Thanks collective!


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:05:32 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Propane/Zahm Tank/Yeast

Bruce Taber asked about propane indoors. The warning labels all over the
bottles should give one pause. Propane is substantially heavier than air
and can pool in low lying parts of the house awaiting a spark so one must
be extremely sure that there are no propane leaks in his setup if he is
going to ignore the warnings which, by the way, I do regularly. The other
problem is, of course, carbon monoxide which is almost, if not quite, as
dangerous as dihydrogen monoxide. Adequate ventilation is required to
remove CO and in addition the burner must be properly adjusted in order to
keep CO production to a minimum. There are devices for sale which monitor
CO levels, sound alarms when integrated exposure excedes the danger level
and give continuous ppm readings. These are available from Grainger, Safety
Zone etc. I would not use propane indoors without one of these devices
installed and I did this installation right after the first (and I hope
last) time I got CO poisoning. It was the hottest day of summer but the
only day I had to brew so I went ahead. This brew session was distinct from
any previous one in that all the doors and windows were closed because the
house A/C was actually partially able to keep up with the burners. At the
end of the brew day I really didn't feel that good (didn't want a beer) and
assume that it was CO. Subsequent operations with the device installed
indicate that it is necessary to modulate door and window openings and to
adjust the carburettors on the burners to keep CO to safe levels.

John deCarlo asked about Zahm and Nagel tanks. Zahm and Nagel make a
variety of instruments for measurements of things like the amount of oxygen
in a bottle of beer and the amount of CO2 in a can of Coke. One of these
instruments is a tank with which brewers can experiment with carbonation.
If you saw one of these you would think "Cornelius Keg with a lot of
gadgets attached and no dings" and that is essentially what it is. Also
very expensive.

Someone asked a while ago about the trade between oxygen scavenging of
bottle yeast and the dangers of autolysis. Obviously this question has many
aspects. In a properly filled bottle there is insufficient oxygen to cause
problems so that there is no need to add yeast for scavenging purposes.
This is especially so if the melanoidins in the bottle are in the reduced
state as they will scavenge additional oxygen. On the other hand many of
the worlds best beers use and advertise bottle fermentation. In this case
it is done for stylistic considerations and the fact that oxidation is
minimized is a secondary benefit. It is clear that autolysis depends very
much on the way in which the shipper, distribtor and customer handle the
beer after it leaves the brewery and how long it is held before
consumption. Very long storage times are possible without autolysis if the
beer is kept near freezing. I don't have hard numbers but have certainly
kept bocks in the lagering tank over a substantial yeast sediment for a
year or more and Pilsners up to 6 months.

If I remember correctly this poster also asked for literature sources.
Philippe Perpette of the Catholic University of Louvain gave a talk on
bottle fermentation at the Spirit of Belgium conference in DC last spring
which revealed that he is right down into the nitty-gritty on this subject.
You might try Louvain's home page (they have one) as a start.


A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:02:20 -0500
From: ac051 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Eric W. Miller)
Subject: re: Washed Yeast



Mike Clarke in Seattle, WA. USA    (MClarke950 at aol.com) asks: 

>I was wondering how long you kept the yeast.  The reason I ask is that I
>have washed some yeast about a month ago and I haven't had time to 
>use it.  I have heard estimates of 1 week - 1 month for refridgerated, 
>washed yeast slurry.  I have a couple of questions: 
 
>1) Whats the longest slurry can be kept and reused, without adverse effects?
>2) What happens to the yeast, that causes it to change? It should be dormant
>at this point right? and its under sterile water, so there's no beer for
>bacteria to work on, right?
 
I used to think the same thing about the yeast being dormant.  I figured that
ale yeast stored at refridgerator temperatures would be in suspended animation
and wouldn't have a chance to eat anything.

I recently saved some yeast from a brown ale batch to use in a pale ale.  I
kept it refridgerated for 4 weeks.  My girlfriend wanted to know what "that
awful rubber smell" was when I transferred the yeast from the mason jar to 
the starter flask.
 
So, one answer about problems with long-term yeast storage is that it'll
autolyze (eat itself) even at low temps.

Eric Miller
Newport, RI

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:22:51 -0500 (EST)
From: Eugene Sonn <sonn at oswego.Oswego.EDU>
Subject: A  curiosity...

A question to  the  collective  brain-trust  at HBD,
	Has anyone ever had a 3-piece airlock clog?  I  switched over  
to  the three-piece  plastic air  lock after getting  sick of uncloging 
the single piece  s-shaped  ones.  But  last  night  my  three  piece 
air-lock clogged  while I  was asleep and the top blew off of my  plastic 
fermenter.  Fortunately, not a  big mess, but  now  I'm having trouble  
relaxing and not worrying.   Is  this  batch of Alt beer doomed?    
Should I start  using  a blow-off tube  instead?   This hasn't been 
necessary in  my four  years  of  brewing.

Thanks  in advance,

Eugene Sonn

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Date:          Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:37:50 EDT
From: "Herb B. Tuten" <HERB at zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us>
Subject:       Labels

Again, thanks to all for the collective wisdom which gathers here.
I recently started to label my bottles using techniques which I learned
from HBD.  I design labels in WordPerfect with pictures, text, etc. and
print them on a laser printer (9 to a sheet).  It only takes a few minutes
to cut them apart with scissors.  Then, when I bottle they are easily
applied with a children's glue stick. No problems with any falling off,
they stay on quite well.  And here's the best part-  After drinking a 
bottle, just hold it under hot tap water and in 15 seconds the label falls
off!   This way I can label each batch with the style, date, etc. and no
worries about removing labels. 

Cheers,
Herb
herb at zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 09:47:43 EST
From: "John McCafferty" <johnm at giant.IntraNet.com>
Subject: Roasting Grains / Saison yeast / Overnight Mashes

Eric Miller and Rich Scotty have commented about the bitterness of their
roasted grains.  I too have been contemplating roasting some grains to make a
little brown malt for use in a porter. So I was rather excited when got the 
new Zymurgy Great Grain Special issue and there were two articles about 
roasting grains.  One problem.  Although both authors recommend similar 
temperatures and times for various effects, Robert Grossman's article 'Home 
Grain Roasting'  advises that the "flavorful aromatic qualities of the roasted 
grain will quickly dissipate so it is best to roast your grains the day you 
plan to brew and allow them to cool completely before crushing."  Fair enough.  
I then read Paul Hale' Fun Flavor Experiments with Malt.  Mr Hale 
descibes  time and temperature guidelines attributed to Randy Mosher similar 
to Mr. Grossman's numbers but then goes on to say: "Freshly roasted grain can 
be somewhat harsh.   It is best to allow grain to mellow for a couple of weeks 
before using."  This apparently aggrees with Eric's and Rich's experience but 
contradicts the previous article.  Can anyone resolve the contradiction for me?
Anyone out there have any positive experience using home roasted grains to 
report?  I've seen alot of Winner's Circle (particualrly for Marzen's and
Common Beer's that have a  pound of toasted malt as an ingredient. Please 
describe time, temperature and process.

Has anyone cultured yeast from Saison Dupont?  Is the yeast the same as that 
used for fermentation ?  How did the beer come out?  How about Witkap Pater? 
Anyone tried this btw?  It's described as Belgian Single, rarely available in 
the US, by one of the importers.  I liked it quite a bit.  Sorry I do not have 
any tasting notes, it was a while ago.

I also tried the overnight mashing regimen described in the aforementioned
Zymurgy issue.  I mashed around 7lbs of grain and 7 qts. water for a brown ale
together in a five gallon SS stock pot at 150F, preheated the oven, placed the
pot in the oven, turned the oven off, and left overnight (six hours).  I   
sparged in the morning.  Beer fermented fine (WYEAST 1968 ESB) and was quite
attenuative.  SG was 1.042 F.G. 1.005.  Beer is a beautiful color with
excellent clarity and tastes great if a little dry for a southern brown.
                                                                        

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 10:10:44 -0500 (EST)
From: "David C. Rinker" <dcrink at widomaker.com>
Subject: Upside-down carboy fermentation

Greetings,

I am planning on brewing my next batch of beer this comming weekend and 
am going to try fermenting the brew in an inverted carboy.  I have 
improvised my own version of a Fermentap(tm) which employs a 3/8"OD 
coppper tube (left over from wort chiller) in line with a spigot to draw 
off the layer of sediment which will collect in the carboy's neck.

Now I am worried, hopefully without cause--what if the sediment becomes 
so thick that the whole system just freezes??  Have any of you had any 
experience in this area, either good or bad?  Should I rethink my design 
(e.g., by using a larger tube) or should I just forget about this approach?

What would the effect be on the final product if I removed the sediment 
daily?

Please, help--what once seemed like a good idea now seems to threaten 
the ruin of a whole batch of homebrew.

Cheers,

Dave
dcrink at widomaker.com

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:04:03 -0600
From: mike at datasync.com (Mike White)
Subject: Converting Propane burners to Natural Gas burners

On 10/29/95 b_roach at emulex.com (Brad Roach) wrote:

>I was wondering if anyone has sucessfully converted a BBQ.
>style propane burner to use natural gas instead. It seems
>that most the inexpensive burners available at BBQ stores
>or restaruant supply stores only use propane. The sales guy
>at one store told me that all I need to do is to re-drill
>the main opening to a larger size. Has anyone done this?

>Also, I need to run about 20 feet of gas line between the
>gas valve and the burner so I can make beer on the patio.
>I would prefer to use rubber hose if this is possible. 


The only difference between propane and natural gas burners is indeed the
size of the "main opening" known as the jet.  I am not sure however  whether
the hole should be larger or smaller.  I do know that it is a very small
hole and would probably require the purchase of an incredibly small drill
bit in order to enlarge it and if I'm not mistaken the exact diameter of
this pinhole sized opening is critical.  

Our local natural gas distributor also sells natural gas appliances.  I had
spoken to them about converting a natural gas furnace to run on propane and
they stated that they sell the jets to convert many appliances back and
forth between propane and natural gas.  So checking with your natural gas
company may be one answer.  Also, you may want to contact the manufacturer
of the propane burner in question and ask about natural gas jets for that
burner.
 
As far as using rubber hose for your line to your burner...it should work.
All of the propane grills I have ever seen use a short piece of rubber hose
between the propane tank and the burner.  Besides, natural gas is only under
about 2 to 5 pounds of pressure in the lines in your house (after it passes
through your gas meter.)  The main reason for using copper or cast iron pipe
is for safety.  They are much harder to puncture and start a leak than a
rubber hose.  Just be sure you have a good seal between the hose and the gas
line you connect it to...a valve at that location would not be a bad idea
either.  

Keep safety in mind whatever you do, and remember the person who reads your
gas meter might see a rubber hose hanging from your gas line as a safety
hazard and shut off your gas until the "hazard" is removed.  

You may also want to be certain that the rubber hose is resistant to
hydrocarbons...like maybe automotive fuel line hose. Wouldn't want the
natural gas or the stenching agent to eat through the hose.  (And yes, for
all you chemists out there I realize that natural gas is not a hydrocarbon,
but methyl mercaptain, the scent in natural gas, is an oil.)

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Thought for the day:

Religions change, beer and wine remain.

- ------------------------------------------------------------
Mike White
mike at datasync.com


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Date: 30 Oct 1995 08:38:01 -0700
From: "Richard Scotty" <richard_scotty at msmgate.mrg.uswest.com>
Subject: Re: Sytles and more

In HBD 1860, Bill Knutson takes Ken Schroeder to task for bashing the big
three.  Sorry Bill, but I believe that you've missed the point here.  I
questioned a suspiciously large number of categories for American Lager at
the GABF and lamented about the broadness of the Pale Ale category.  Ken's
response spoke to those issues and I believe that he had a valid point.  The
post wasn't about the right of the big three to pursue their "niche" (helluva
big niche there Bill).  They have every right to market their products as
they see fit.  I just want to know why the AOB found it necessary to divide
American Lagers into six categories when there is not nearly the breadth of
style that there is in the Pale Ales which are lumped into a single category.

***********************

On grain roasting:

A big thanks to Steve Alexander for the info on grain roasting.  I'll give
this a shot when time allows (and the spousal unit is'nt in the house) and
will post the results if there is sufficient interest.

***********************

On Iodophors:  

Iodophor can be purchased economically.  I buy mine in a 1 liter bottle for
$7.95.  This is enough to treat 165 gallons of water and I've had no problems
with infections.  I used to use bleach, but found that it had to be rinsed
too many times to lose the chlorine odor.  Residual chlorine can lead to some
nasty compounds in your beer, so if you use it, be sure to rinse well.

Rich Scotty - Chief of Transportation & Logistics - The Crapshoot Brewery.

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 11:25:03 -0500 (EST)
From: Rob Reed <rhreed at icdc.delcoelect.com>
Subject: Robust Porter Guidelines


bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros) writes:

>  I entered a porter in a 
> competition last year and, while I was stewarding another table, I could
> overhear the judges discussing my beer.  Two judges liked it a lot while
> the third judge marked it down for having a slight roasted barley flavor
> and too many hops.  The other judges said the beer compared favorably to
> Anchor Porter, which has some of these "stout characteristics".  So, in
> competitions, a lot of judges preferences show through on the scoresheets
> rather than the style descriptions that the competition is using.

If this competition was AHA sanctioned, then the judges are more or less
obliged to use the standard AHA beer guidelines.  I don't have the
guidelines with me, but the last time I checked, roasted barley flavors
are specifically disallowed in Robust Porter.  If by too many hops, you mean
the hop bitterness was too high, then judges should mark the beer down.
IMO, the most important aspect of Porter is balance: Porter should have
dark malt, caramel, late hop flavors, hop bitterness and grain bitterness 
in balance.  Porter should be very malty, complex, and drinkable, which 
IMO means moderately bitter and not sweet.  Obviously, there are many, many 
interpretations of Porter.

I don't agree with AHA's prohibition of roasted barley in Porter and have
tasted many fine microbrewed and pub brewed interpretations that included
roasted barley.  Since brewers don't use the historic version of brown malt
in their Porter, I think one can argue either side of the issue with
regard to the presence or absence of roasted barley in Porter.

Cheers,

Rob Reed

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 08:35:32 -0800 (PST)
From: novices <novices at poniecki.haas.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: Oakland Water/Oatmeal


It's great to be receiving HBD again; I've been out of the loop for over a
year.  My apologies if the following questions have been handled recently 
or if a FAQ somewhere answers these (I don't as yet know how to find or 
access them).  My questions:

(1) Can anyone tell me about the water quality/analysis of water in the 
Berkeley/Oakland (California)?  I am new to the Bay Area (from, sigh!, 
Seattle) and want to get back into brewing, but have no idea whether I 
can use water from the tap or if I need to treat the water (beyond 
boiling, of course).

(2) How does one make oatlmeal stout - specifically, how do I partial 
mash oatmeal in such a way that I get an extract I can add to the boil 
pot?  I tried once, but all I got was a great gob of cooked oatmeal - 
which I was not about to add to the boiler!  I am a partial mash brewer.  
I can only imagine the problem would be worse for a whole grain brewer, 
in terms of getting a stuck mash.

Replies welcome on HBD (if sufficient interest) or personal e-mail (if 
you are so inclined). Thanks!  

(Br.) James Thompson - novices at poniecki.haas.berkeley.edu
St. Albert's Priory
Order of Friars Preachers
Oakland, California








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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 12:10:00 EST
From: "Taber, Bruce" <BRUCE.TABER at NRC.CA>
Subject: Indoor brewing


Last week I asked about suggested setups for boiling in my basement.
I received about 15 - 20 replies. (It was very exciting).  Thanks to all who
offered help and opinions.

I though I'd summarize the replies.

1. Some said 'DON"T DO IT'.  They were worried about propane leaks
indoors.  A valid concern but what about the propane and natural gas
appliances in houses now.  I do agree with keeping the propane tank
outdoors and running a line in through a window.
2. Many do use both propane and natural gas burners in their basements.
Their opinions ranged from, 'Don't worry about it',   to describing systems
of venting the waste combustion products using vent hoods and fans.
One common point was make sure that  there is a window cracked open to
provide adequate combustion air.
3.  A few mentioned having an inexpensive CO monitor that they use while
brewing indoors.  This seems like a great  idea.  I have a plug-in model
upstairs in my home already, so I could easily move it to the basement
while I brew.  Propane and natural gas detectors were also mentioned.
4.  Most interesting was the use of electric boilers.  These were kegs
with a 3500W hot water tank element installed in it.  These are 220V
elements so you have to pug them into your dryer outlet.  One response
stated that as soon as the element is submerged with the runnings from
his lauter tun, he turns it on.  It is then heating as the boil pot 
continues to
fill.  He achieves a full boil only a few minutes after he finishes 
sparging.

All this great info has produces a couple of additional questions.

Q1.  Could I use a 1500W element and achieve a boil of 5 gal. ? My dryer
is upstairs and I don't feel like (read 'lazy') wiring one in downstairs. 
 The
1500W elements are only 120V.  Maybe I could use two of the 1500W
ones and plug them into different circuits.

Q2.  If I put a false bottom in a keg and used an electric element located
below the false bottom so as to avoid burning the grains, could I mash in
it also?  I would mash, drain the runnings, sparge, scoop out most of the
spent grain, lift out the false bottom ( a wire handle would be installed),
rinse, then pour the wort back in to boil.  Any suggestions?

Thanks to all.

Bruce Taber
taber at irc.lan.nrc.ca

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 09:39:14 -0800 (PST)
From: Rich Gibson <drahcirr at netcom.com>
Subject: How to use spent grains


> I was wondering if any of you use your spent grains after you brew for 
> anything. Maybe I am just conservative but there must be something I 
> can do with these grains after mashing. Any ideas?

The best and highest use of spent grain is to feed it to your chickens.  
We have about 50 laying hens who can't get enough of that spent grain.

They also love the fruit 'gunk' left over from making fruit beers.

They don't really like the hops and yeast slurry sludge left over from 
bottling, but they eventually will eat it.  I figure that the yeast 
slurry is good for them.

The added advantage of feeding grains to the chickens is that they 
produce eggs to 'close the cycle' on everyone's favorite breakfast:  Eggs 
and beer!

Rich Gibson drahcirr at netcom.com                      [\] PADI DM Candidate
- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you can't trust me with a choice, how can you trust me with an Hawaiian 
pizza?


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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 95 13:17:35 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: on-demand sparge/NA beer/acidifying sparge/styles/pH/big 3/Fischer

THOR writes:
>Why cant I eliminate the hot liquor back and instead get some kind of 
>inline heating element like the kind for a coffee maker? The sparging 
>is supposed to be done slowly and it seems like the same design as a 
>coffee maker at this stage. I could completely rid myself of the 
>hot liqour back and there practically no time needed in getting the 
>sparge going. 

Good idea, unless if you have to treat your sparge water with acid
or brewing salts.

***
Eric writes:
>The October issue of "BREW your own" Magazine had an article on no or low
>alcohol beer. The method is simply to brew your beer as usual up to
>the point it's ready for bottling and then cook it in the oven (or 
>stove top) at 180deg for 20-30 min. to boil off the alcohol.  Of course,
>you can get rid of all of it or some it by regulating the time.
> 
>Question --- Has anyone tried this? If so, what's it do to flavor? I
>have trouble thinking this simple process won't totally trash an
>otherwise good (if not great) beer.

I assure you that it takes a lot longer than 20-30 minutes.  Based upon
some facts about alcohol/water mixtures that I got from previous HBD
posts by some chemists, I took 3 gallons of two different beers and
heated them up to about 170F for something like 2 hours.  The beers lost
about 20% of their volume, which I put back with boiled-chilled water.
What came out were decent tasting beers, but they had almost no nose.
The original beers were an ESB and an English Mild and both were very
fruity.  The resulting beers were not fruity at all.  Very bland aromas.
I would recommend dryhopping after removing the alcohol to put back
some kind of aroma.

***
Russ writes regarding acidifying sparge water:
>Acid blend will affect the flavor.  I don't know much about phosphorus.  I'd
>say just go ahead with the gypsum.  It's not very soluble, and it acts as a
>buffer, so there's a limit on how many problems it can give you.  With adding
>acid, you can overshoot to easily.

Acid blend will affect the flavour only a very small amount and in most
beers won't be noticable.  Phosphoric acid is less flavourul however, so
if you can get it, use it.  DO NOT USE GYPSUM TO TRY TO ACIDIFY SPARGE
WATER.  Sorry for shouting, but it just does not work.  Gypsum lowers
the pH of the mash because the Calcium in it reacts with the malt (phosphates
I believe) and the mash pH lowers.  If you want to use gypsum to keep the
pH of the runnings low, you can do that, but don't simply add gypsum and
measure the pH of the sparge water -- it's not how it works!  Also, be
aware of the fact that the Sulphate in the gypsum will accentuate the hop
bitterness.  Fine if you are making a Bitter or an IPA, but tragic if you
are trying to make a Bohemian Pilsner.  If indeed the beer style you are
making will work with resonable levels of Sulphate, AND if your grain bill
is very pale (no dark malts) then you can try adding a gram per gallon of
gypsum to the sparge water and monitor the pH of the runnings.  If that
isn't enough, you could try adding more gypsum next time or you will have
to go to acids.

***
Russ also writes:
>Might be Biere de Garde'.  I'd describe it as a cross between a Muenchner 
>Helles and a Belgian Trappist ale, and probably offend someone with that
>description.

Yeah, I'm offended...  no, seriously, how can anything taste like a Trappist
Ale?  When you consider the difference between Westmalle Dubbel, Westmalle
Tripel, Orval, Chimay Red, White and Blue, not to mention Rochefort 10 and
La Trappe Quadrupel (not Belgian, but still a Trappist), there is little
common to these beers other than high-ish carbonation ;^).  The "Trappist"
in Trappist Ales refers to their *source* not their style.

***
Alan writes:
>I agree that style definitions are nice, but must they be sooooo
>constrictive at times?  I say give us some room to play, & you'll see some
>more interesting brews at the competitions.

Perhaps, but it will only make judging more difficult than it already is.
It is difficult enough to help entrants improve their beer when both judge
and entrant are shooting towards a narrow style description.  If we broaden
the descriptions too much, we can only judge on likablity and the comments
on the scoresheet would be nothing other than instructions on how to make
the beer more likable by that ONE particular judge on that ONE particular
day.

***
Paul writes:
   So whats the deal?  Does everyone who brews all-grain check pH?

I did the first few times and found that even with an all Pale Ale malt
mash, my runnings never got over 5.6 pH and that was after 8 gallons of
runnings from 7 pounds of grain.  I did check again recently when I did
a mash with all Pils malt and some wheat flour, and indeed the pH was
rather high, so I did add some acid to the mash and acidified my sparge
water.  This was with the same 105-110ppm CO3 Chicago water than Paul
would be using, so I say, unless you are making something REALLY pale, 
check the pH but don't sweat it.  If, on the other hand, you have high
CO3 water, then you will have to acidify on the paler beers.
 
***
Bill writes:
>I get the feeling sometimes that  we beersnobs (I admit it) think that the
>worldwould be a better place if the big three disappeared today, or that we'd
>sooner be dead than drink that swill.  What do you do when you're in BF Egypt
>and all that they sell is that stuff?  

I drink water, but I do agree that the big three play an important role in
brewing: they pump enough money into Washington, DC to balance the money
pumped in by the Neoprohibitionists and keep beer legal in the US.  Think
about it.  What irritates me is that they have essentially spoiled the
tastes of American beer drinkers.  80+% of the beer drinkers in the US think
that all beer should taste like Bud, Miller or Coors and THAT is a big
injustice.  If A-B started selling as much Elk Mountain Ale as Budweiser
and I had a choice of at least five beers that taste *DIFFERENT* when I
go to a restaurant, then I would no longer be irritated by the big three.
American Light Lagers to beer are the same as fluffy white sandwich bread
is to bread and it is a crime when your only choice is between five beers
that taste essentially alike.  That's not a choice.

***
Matthew writes:
>Alsace-Lorraine borders on the southern portion of Germany, and in many
>ways the style of beer brewed there is similar to a German Alt.    

German Alt is really rather a misused term.  I'll bet that you mean the
Altbiers that are NOT in the Duesseldorf style.  There are many German
breweries, especially in the north, that call their brown lager an "alt."
Since these beers outnumber the Duesseldorfer Altbiers by perhaps an order
of magnitude, they have diluted the meaning of Altbier in the original
sense (namely an ale, in the old (alt means old) style of brewing, before
the advent of lager technology).  Duesseldorfer Altbiers are *intensely*
malty and *intensely* bitter (45-60 IBUs!) and have absolutely nothing in
common with any beer that I've tasted from France.  My concern and reason
for this post is primarily to head off someone reading the guidelines for a
Duesseldorfer Altbier and trying to duplicate Fischer from that starting
point.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 15:37:35 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Attn: First time brewers.

In HBD # 1869, Eric Peters advised some novice :

> My point is, before dumping a batch, TASTE it.

YES!  Always.  I've spoken with and e-mailed so many new brewers who
have their first batch do something "unexpected", panic, and dump it 
all without so much as a sip.  Don't do that.  Advise your newbrew 
friends not to do that.  I just hope we can stop more people from doing
that.

Don't Panic.  (Relax, don't worry, at least TASTE a homebrew, eh?)

 -R

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:42:29 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Everything 0/3


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> 
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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:43:28 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Everything 1/3


> From: bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu (Bryan L. Gros)
> Subject: competitions and judges

> The same can be said with some beer judges.  I entered a porter in a 
> competition last year and, while I was stewarding another table, I could
> overhear the judges discussing my beer.  Two judges liked it a lot while
> the third judge marked it down for having a slight roasted barley flavor
> and too many hops.  The other judges said the beer compared favorably to
> Anchor Porter, which has some of these "stout characteristics".  So, in
> competitions, a lot of judges preferences show through on the scoresheets
> rather than the style descriptions that the competition is using.

Yes, and if we had larger categories, this would only get worse.  I nearly
always prefer a stout to a porter.  (I mean, a terrible stout would get 
beaten by a good porter, but a good stout will be a good porter for me.)  
However, if I'm judging a porter against a porter, I think I can still rank
them well enough to have something to say to a porter lover.  (Of course,
I might push the more stouty porters to the top.)  

> From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
> Subject: Re: Styles,  Judging and the AHA

> I like the idea of an "Other" category in competitions.  Surely both
> Charlies would approve (P. and S.) especially given that Charlie P's
> style of brewing is ready made for this category.  Lambiek/Lambic Barleywine
> anyone?  If the Nationals begin to draw 137 Doppel-Dunkel-Raspberry-Weizens
> every year, I'll bet they split it off into it's own category.

Perhaps the "other" category could be subdivided so that more prizes would 
be available.  How many are there now?  My recollection is that there is 
a "fruit specialty" and "other specialty".  Maybe another couple would be
appropriate.  I'm not sure how you could split these, though.

> Send your suggestions to James Spence at   james at aob.org
>  AND Tim Dawson at  tim at strange.mv.com

Maybe I should send them that one, if I ever get it out of "half baked" status.

> From: phil.brushaber at lunatic.com (Phil Brushaber)
> Subject: Celis Bottles... Too Light?

I'd use an opaque sunblock like a paper bag, for instance, for any bottles 
in that fridge you describe, unless they are actually painted.  Any glass 
will let in enough light after awhile.  Maybe the Celis are faster than 
others, but I'd use a blocker either way, so you might as well stick with 
them.

> From: palmer at San-Jose.ate.slb.com (Eric Palmer)
> Subject: low/no alcohol beer
> 
> The October issue of "BREW your own" Magazine had an article on no or low
> alcohol beer. The method is simply to brew your beer as usual up to
> the point it's ready for bottling and then cook it in the oven (or 
> stove top) at 180deg for 20-30 min. to boil off the alcohol.  Of course,
> you can get rid of all of it or some it by regulating the time.

I would worry very much in an oven about a flash fire from the fumes.  I've
never done what you describe, but I have caused flash fires.  They're pretty
cool when your 13, but not something I want these days.

> From: keithfrank at dow.com (Keith Frank)
> Subject: re:  iodophors safe? / bottle cap sanitation / toasting malt

> The summary seems to be - there is a difference 
> between "roasting" and "toasting". 

I always have a hard time toasting my malt because the grains fall through
the holes where you put the bread.  Also, I had some malt get stuck in there
and damn near electrocuted myself trying to get them out with a fork.

 -R

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Date: Mon, 30 Oct 1995 16:47:55 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Everything 2/3


> You have sent a message to homebrew-request@ hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com

Oops.

> From: alan at mail.utexas.edu (Alan P. Van Dyke)
> Subject: styles

> I agree that style definitions are nice, but must they be sooooo
> constrictive at times?  I say give us some room to play, & you'll see some
> more interesting brews at the competitions.

Again, I think the blame for this rests more squarely on the shoulders of
the judges interpreting the style guidelines than on those who write the
guidelines.  Perhaps we should concentrate on emphasizing that guidelines are
guidelines, not rules.

> From: Paul Sovcik <U18183 at UICVM.CC.UIC.EDU>
> Subject:      pH testing for all grain brewing

>    Miller states that testing the pH of the sparge water is critical
> because of increased tannins with a high pH.  Of course, everything Miller
> does is " critical", so Im not sure I believe him completely. 

The pH is very important.  Testing it is not.  I test my spargate every gallon
or so, and at the slightest hint of astringency, I cut the flow and panic.
(After that, I give a little more gypsum to my sparge water and make some notes
and promise never to do again whatever it is that I may have did in the first
place...)

> From: "James Giacalone" <JGiacalone at vines.ColoState.EDU>
> Subject: Mead

Sounds like it's fine to me.  You could ask on the Mead-Lover's Digest.

> From: krkoupa at ccmail2.srv.PacBell.COM
> Subject: Air Lock Contents?
> 
>      What do you use in your bubbling-type air lock?  Water?  Vodka?  
>      Something else?

Water.  Whatever you do, don't use anything you don't want in your beer (eg
bleach).

> Besides, I'd hate to have a shot of 
>      vodka go undrunk.

You could always gulp it out of the airlock while bottling...

 -R



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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1872, 11/01/95