FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  propane and carbon monoxide (Rob Lauriston)
  Ooops! I'm sorry. (Harlan Bauer)
  Convert an IPA to Christmas ale (Anthony Migliore)
  Re;   Burnt Crud ("David W. Parkin")
  Mashing Overnight... ("Bessette, Bob")
  temperature calculations ("Dulisse, Brian")
  Wyeast ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Bad Pumps/How to Oxygenate a 6 bbl Run (Kirk R Fleming)
  Corn starch in the mash (Delano Dugarm 36478)
  Calling Mr. (Vanilla) Bean (TrubRacker)
  Corn Starch (Peter Thomford)
  RE: Gravity of Bottled Beer (Neal Christensen)
  Samuel Adams/mega-microbrewer ("Michael R. Swan")
  San Diego (Todd Kirby)
  Mash Agitation ("Richard Scotty")
  Re: Wyeast and perceived problems (Jeff Frane)
  adelscott beer (HOMEBRE973)
  Thanks to ALL HBD'ers (kdschida)
  Additional CDO HC Winners (Fred Hardy)
  Hung over (Stephbrown)
  Lead in Glass Carboys (Douglas A. McCullough)
  1996 Bay Area Brewoff (Bob Jones)
  Home Roasted Malt (Wyss1364)
  Homebrew Digest #1877 (November 07, 1995) -Reply (Alan Deaton)
  Avoiding stuck sparge suggestions? (Mike Dowd)
  Sparge pH/the big three (Algis R Korzonas)
  pumps and wort (LARSEN_JIM)
  Re: "Fine Beer" (Al Stevens)
  re: Trappists (Algis R Korzonas)
  Iodophor Summary (Tim Fields)
  Grain Mills ("Tracy Aquilla")
  re: Wheat beer question (Eric W. Miller)
  re: Irish Moss (Eric W. Miller)
  wheat beer and tannins ("Bob Hall" )
  Re: Bathing (Pierre Jelenc)
  Uncl: Airlock Fluid and Suck Back ("Calvin Perilloux")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 04:00 PST
From: robtrish at mindlink.bc.ca (Rob Lauriston)
Subject: propane and carbon monoxide

While I voted 'yes' to proposition propane earlier, I am having second
thoughts and I'd like to echo Frank Dobner.

>Honestly, the subject of propane use indoors is one that I am glad
>remember to treat propane with a lot of respect. I also use propane
>indoors and I think I do all the right things. If you get sick of these
>propane posts, think of them as a "wake-up call."
>"It takes a very careful brewer to be extremely dangerous."

I don't think I paid nearly enough attention to the danger of carbon
monoxide poisoning.  Perhaps that's because the guy who turned me on to
propane said he had never had any problems.  But at the time he said that,
we were brewing in his basement with the window only open a crack and I was
getting dizzy and nauseous.  You never know with the "I've never had any
problems" posts.


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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 06:42:33 -0600
From: blacksab at siu.edu (Harlan Bauer)
Subject: Ooops! I'm sorry.

Ooops! Well, guess I was wrong, methane is NOT also heavier than air. I'm
terribly sorry for posting false information, and thanks to all who
corrected me. For some reason, I thought there were more carbon molecules in
Methane than there are.

Feeling kind of stupid,
Harlan

*****************************************************************************
*                                                                           *
*     Harlan Bauer                       ...malt does more than Milton can  * 
* <blacksab at siu.edu>                    To justify God's ways to man.       *
*    Carbondale, IL                                        --A.E. Houseman  *
*                                                                           *
****************************************************************************
*                                            


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Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 08:37:24 -0500
From: Anthony Migliore <MIGLIORE at novell.nadn.navy.miL>
Subject:  Convert an IPA to Christmas ale

I have a five gallon corny keg of an IPA which is just starting to get good.
Before I drink it all, is it possible to convert this patch to a Christmas Ale? 
Can I just dump in (ala dry hop) some clove, nutmeg, cinnamon, etc?  If I
can do this, how much and what kind of spice should I try?

Anthony


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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 08:17:52 -0600
From: "David W. Parkin" <dwparkin at mmm.com>
Subject: Re;   Burnt Crud

>After fifty or so batches (extract based) I had a strange experience on
>my last batch.  A nice black ring of burnt crud (sugars) on the bottom of
>my 15 gal keg boiler.
>Question:  How do I get rid of this stuff?

I have had the same question/experiance on my brew pot using the stove.  I
use to go after the burnt crud with chemical and mechanical weapons but
found that to be a lot of work.  Then one time I left a brew pot out over
night (forgot to clean - too late and too much homebrew while cooking)  and
in the morning,  the burnt crud had pealed away and could be flicked off the
pot.  Now if I have any scourching,  I clean the pot (rinse)  and leave it
for the next day to clean.  I must note that all of the crud doesn't come
off but most will.

DWP


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Date: Mon, 06 Nov 95 06:31:00 PST
From: "Bessette, Bob" <bob.bessette at lamrc.com>
Subject: Mashing Overnight...


Fellow HBDers,
 I've been reading a lot lately about mashing overnight and then sparging, 
etc in the AM. This would make some sense for me in that I could, after the 
kids go to bed, set up and start the mash, and then go to bed myself. I 
would then get up early and complete the mashout, sparging, boiling, 
chilling, pitching, etc.  As a result it would only take me approximately 3 
hours in the AM rather than 5 hours all at once. Obviously after a few hours 
my mash temperatures will no doubt be below 150F. What adverse effects could 
this have on my brew? The more I read about it the more attractive the idea 
sounds. I may try this this weekend. I would welcome your comments, 
warnings, etc. TIA...

Bob Bessette
bob.bessette at lamrc.com

 


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Date: Mon, 06 Nov 95 10:14:00 EST
From: "Dulisse, Brian" <bbd4 at CIPCOD1.EM.CDC.GOV>
Subject: temperature calculations


is there a formula for calculating the volume/temperature of infusions?  for 
example, if i have x pounds of malt at temperature w, and add y gallons of 
water at temperature z, what is the temperature at which the mixture will 
stabilize?  or, if i have x pounds of malt and y gallons of water mixed 
together at temperature z, how much boiling water is necessary to move the 
mass to a temperature z+a?  i'd guess this is simply a problem of knowing 
the specific heat of malt . . . ?

tia

bd

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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 10:27:09 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: Wyeast

In digest # 1796:
Date: Fri, 3 Nov 1995 20:00:52 -0600
From: blacksab at siu.edu (Harlan Bauer)
Subject: WYEAST

Harlan says:
>There's been a bit of talk lately about Wyeast, and I suppose readers should
>be reminded that Wyeast was caught selling Brettanomyces yeast (that's how
>the package was labeled) when in fact the package contained mostly Ale
>yeast. The homebrewer who pointed this out and posted on Lambic Digest was
>threatened with law suit and forced to publically recant. Wyeast has since
>changed the package, basically admitting that said homebrewer was correct.
>So don't expect Wyeast to be forthcoming about any real or percieved
>problems with their products.
[snip]

There's always more than one side to every story. Without getting into a
raging debate over this issue, I'd like to make some suggestions for those
having "perceived problems" with their yeast. First of all, considering the
issue of liability/defamation, I doubt if it's wise (or responsible) to post
unsubstantiated claims like this to r.c.b or the digest (or to spread rumors
by repeating hearsay). Publicly questioning the quality of their products
and/or their sense of business ethics probably won't solve your problem, but
it is likely to land you in court! Secondly, if you question the quality of
your yeast package, you should probably try to return it to the supplier
from whom you purchased it. They should replace it and take up the issue of
quality control with the manufacturer, thereby making you a happy customer.
If you found a rat carcass in your Cheerios, would you return the offending
box of parts to the grocery store for a replacement, or call General Mills?
Why should yeast be any different than any of the thousands of other
products we consume every day?
    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu

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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 07:34:08 -0700
From: flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming)
Subject: Bad Pumps/How to Oxygenate a 6 bbl Run

Wort Pumps:  In #1876 James Hojel <JTroy at msn.com> said he talked to a
Belgian brewmaster who claimed

> using gravity is much more gentle on wort/beer and will produce better
> tasting and more stable beer (less damage on compounds, etc.??) than a
> centrifugal pump.  I mentioned that I use a pump for wort recirculation
> and to pump between kegs (Pico System).  He warned me against it;
> especially at the home-brew level. 

I know the pumps we use (March, Teel, etc) are primitive paddle-wheel
type centrifugal pumps, but all the brewhouse pumps I've seen are just
centrifugal units too, although I assume they have the more sophisticated
laminar flow fins in them.  Cavitation in the paddle wheel pumps is
common (at least in mine).

Before I jump thru a bunghole to redesign my system I wonder if anyone
has any experience to corroborate the claim, or can speculate as to what
effect beating the crap out of the wort thru a pump has on the final
product.  For a continuously recirculating system this could be a big
deal, and if it really is a big deal, do you think a peristaltic (sp?)
pump would be a candidate solution.

Oxygenating Large Volumes of Wort:  I would greatly appreciate any tips
you may have for oxygenation of 6 bbls of wort in a Grundy (wort has a
1:1 aspect ratio).  Info on airstone products, oxygen pressure and
duration of the process is needed.  I plan to fit three or four of the
sintered ss airstones to a manifold and increase oxygen pressure until
I can see the airstones producing bubbles over a maximum of their
surface areas. Since I can't see this in the actual system, I'd do it in
shallow wort then compensate for the depth-of-tank head.  Any ideas?

KRF Colorado Springs
- ------------------------------------------------------------------
"Frig is not an appliance, it is an activity."     Rolland Everitt
- ------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 15:10:47 +0000 (GMT)
From: Delano Dugarm 36478 <ADUGARM at worldbank.org>
Subject: Corn starch in the mash

	David Seldon asks about using corn starch in an all-grain 
pale ale.
	I've mashed both corn starch and tapioca starch with no 
significant problems.  In both cases the starch was about 20% of 
the mash.  The best way I've found to avoid large starch globules 
is to mix the starch well with the crushed malt *before* doughing 
in.  I always add liquid to solid, and this might be more 
important with starch than with regular malt.  6-row malt 
converts the starch very quickly, but 2-row does fine as well.
	The only difficulty I've found in using starch is that 
the starch will tend to scorch if I use direct heat to boost the 
mash from protein rest to saccharification rest. 
	This being said, I do not think that starch is a very 
good adjunct to use in a pale ale.  It leaves a very neutral 
taste, and I much prefer the grainy sweetness that flaked maize 
gives to pale ales.  Starch does make a nice, dry cream ale, 
though.  
	The best discussions of adjuncts are an article by George 
Fix in the 1985 _zymurgy_ All-Grain Issue and Wahl and Henius  
_American Handy Book of the Brewing, Malting and Auxiliary 
Trades_, Chicago, 1908.  I've been experimenting with all sorts 
of adjuncts, and will eventually post some results.

Delano "Adjunct Boy" DuGarm
Arlington, VA
adugarm at worldbank.org
	


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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 11:07:47 -0500
From: TrubRacker at aol.com
Subject: Calling Mr. (Vanilla) Bean

Greetings to the Collective from a longtime lurker and first time poster !

Ques:  Have any of you had experience w/vanilla bean? Specifically, yesterday
I brewed a Russian Imperial Oatmeal Stout and would like to add Vanilla to
the already lengthy nom de plume. ( OG 1090)  I did not add the vanilla to
the boil fearful that the aromatics would be driven off.  My options now, as
I see them, are to "dry bean" or to add some vanilla " tea" to either the
primary or secondary. ( Secondary seems a better bet).  Also, would the bean
need to be ground or minced or added whole? How much is too much? Etc., etc.,
etc. .....

      Any suggestions, hopefully based on experience, would be greatly
appreciated.


Andy Udalovas
TrubRacker at aol.com 

"Anything worth doing is worth overdoing"

 Since hemmoroids occur on your ass, 
 Why aren't they called Assteroids? 

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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 12:09 EST
From: Peter Thomford <PThomfor_+a_HAZTRXMA_+lPeter_Thomford+r%Hazleton_Wisconsin at mcimail.com>
Subject: Corn Starch




Text item: Text_1


In #1876 David Selden writes:


<I have a recipe - from Papazian's book that calls for a ton of corn starch,
<12 -16 oz?  Is this a typo or do I need to dump this liquid thickening
<stuff  in my allgrain batch.  What is its effect on the brew?  Should
<I be using this pale ale recipe for my first allgrain batch?

I assume that you are referring to the Amaizing Pale Ale recipe.  I have used
this several times with up to 2 lb. of corn starch.  This has worked for me
quite well.  OG and FG has been about as expected, (i.e. not gravy) -Peter


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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 10:49:22 -0700
From: nealc at selway.umt.edu (Neal Christensen)
Subject: RE: Gravity of Bottled Beer

Derrick Pohl asked about measuring gravity of carbonated beer.  A brewer
friend told me that carbonation does affect the reading.  I took his word on
it, but have not experimented.  When he tests his carbonated beer, he lets
it perculate through a paper lab filter first to remove the CO2.  It needs
to be a slow perc to do the job.  Three coffee filters together will work
about like a lab paper filter - maybe run through twice.


Neal Christensen
Missoula - A Place Sort Of


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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 13:43:20 GMT (Original EST)
From: "Michael R. Swan" <mswan at fdic.gov>
Subject: Samuel Adams/mega-microbrewer

*	In HBD #1876, Ken Schroeder (kens at lan.nsc.com) writes about 
megabreweries:

>Bill tells the story of how Jim Kock and Sam Adams son medals art GABF. Good 
>story I might add. To me SA is a big brewer, maybe the biggest of the craft 
>brew companies. Siera Nevada is also big. Both these companies produce good

	"Maybe the biggest" is a bit of an understatement when applied to 
Samuel Adams.  I just got my Prospectus for The Boston Beer Company initial 
public stock offering.  In the Prospectus, the Company states, "Boston Beer 
is the largest craft brewer by volume in the United States. . . In 1994, the 
Company sold 714,000 barrels of beer, which it believes to be more than the 
next six largest craft brewers combined."
                      ^^^^^^^^
                              
Mike Swan 
Dallas, Texas 
Standard disclaimers apply
 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ 
"I broke their code, but I fell into the trap they intended, the trap of a 
code devised to be broken. I took no pride in my rebellion, I took it as 
guilt, I did not damn them, I damned myself, I did not damn their code, I 
damned existence - and I hid my happiness as a shameful secret."
		Ayn Rand 
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 14:06:30 -0500 (EST)
From: Todd Kirby <mkirby at isnet.is.wfu.edu>
Subject: San Diego 

Hello Collective,

I'm going to a Neuroscience conference in San Diego next week and was 
wondering if there are some brewpubs, etc. that I just HAVE to visit. 
Anyone have any recommendations?

Thanks,

Todd Kirby

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Date: 6 Nov 1995 14:29:34 -0700
From: "Richard Scotty" <richard_scotty at msmgate.mrg.uswest.com>
Subject: Mash Agitation

I've recently aquired a new mash tun made from a converted keg.  This past
weekend, I ran it through its paces with an ESB and while there was no
scorching of the mash as a result of adding heat, the mash required virtually
constant stirring to maintain uniform temperature and avoid scorching.

So now, I've embarked on a small engineering exercise to add mechanical
stirring to this system.  I have access to a variety of gear motors with
various rpm and torque ratings, but I'm having difficulty finding an
appropriate device for this motor to turn.  I've seen several paint stirrers,
but they are of the painted steel variety and unsuitable for use in the mash.
 I've also found a mixer designed for use with wallboard coumpound.  This
unit is zinc plated (not galvanized - it has a soft goldish color to it). 
Does anyone know what the result of using this device might be?

Short of custom fabrication, has anyone else approached and hopefully solved
this problem?  I have read the various RIMS threads, but I believe that
stirring will still be necessary with re-circulation.

Any help will be greatly appreciated.  Private email is fine - I'll summarize
and post if there is sufficient interest.

Richard Scotty - Chief Mash Mucker - The Crapshoot Brewery

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Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 15:05:53 -0800
From: jfrane at teleport.com (Jeff Frane)
Subject: Re: Wyeast and perceived problems


>From: blacksab at siu.edu (Harlan Bauer)
>Subject: WYEAST
>
>There's been a bit of talk lately about Wyeast, and I suppose readers should
>be reminded that Wyeast was caught selling Brettanomyces yeast (that's how
>the package was labeled) when in fact the package contained mostly Ale
>yeast. The homebrewer who pointed this out and posted on Lambic Digest was
>threatened with law suit and forced to publically recant. Wyeast has since
>changed the package, basically admitting that said homebrewer was correct.
>So don't expect Wyeast to be forthcoming about any real or percieved
>problems with their products. I'm not saying there ARE any problems with
>1056, I'm simply suggesting that if there are any problems with it, you're
>probably not going to hear about it from Wyeast.
>

The situation concerning Wyeast and "the homebrewer" (let's call him "X")
was considerably more complicated than you probably know, or than X was
willing to mention on the net.  Let us just say that before you shoot off
your virtual mouth, try speaking directly with Dave Logsdon on the issue.

The informational literature available from Wyeast to all retailers has
always, as I recall, been pretty clear that the Brett. package was a blend
of several yeast strains, a blend that had been put together by Wyeast, not
to defraud anyone (and why would they?), but to ensure better performance
than initial single strains.

If you believe the last sentence, it's clear that you've never had any
direct dealings with Wyeast, and that you're not associated with any
retailer.  In the past, whenever there have been any problems with their
yeasts, Wyeast has not only replaced them for customers, but recalled them
from retailers.

In the past, Wyeast was notified by homebrewers that there were some
problems with slow performances by 1056, they traced the problem down to
a mutation, and the problem was corrected.

If anyone is having a problem with any Wyeast strain, they should contact
their retailer, or even call Wyeast directly.  Contrary to some
people's opinions, Wyeast didn't get to be the leader in the field by
being huge, they got there by hard work, quality merchandise,  and by 
responding to customer requests.

And, please, before you malign *any* producer, wholesaler, retailer, whatever
in the homebrewing field, get your facts straight first, folks.

- --Jeff Frane


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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 17:27:16 -0500
From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Subject: adelscott beer

I recently tasted a beer called Adel Scott Malt Liquor.  It was quite
alcohol, slightly smoked, and quite nice as a sipping beer.  It was brewed by
Fischer D'Alsace.
Anyone know anything more about this beer.

Andy Kligerman
Hillsborough, NC

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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 13:31:02 PST
From: kdschida at vines.dsd.litton.com
Subject: Thanks to ALL HBD'ers

Some of you might have known about, and participated in the Virtual
Village Homebrew Society's "NetWort I" competition this past Saturday,
Nov. 4th, on CompuServe.  Well, I've been a homebrewer now for about
a year and a half with only 11 batches under my belt (literally, just
ask my wife); the last one just bottled two weeks ago which was my
first all-grainer, and when Ralph Colaizzi mentioned this competition
in HBD #1849, I thought...  what the heck?  To make a long story short,
I sent in my first try at a stout, and WON 1ST PLACE in the combined
category "Porters and Stouts".  I knew it tasted good to me, but I was
AMAZED at my placing, not expecting to even get a ribbon at all, much
less 1ST PLACE!!

I basically just wanted to say thanks to EVERYBODY here on the HBD for
all the knowledge I gain being a 95 percent lurker, 5 percent
participant.  Special thanks to Dr. Dave Harsh for his personal help
on this particular brew that I sent in to the competition (Can Ya'
believe it Dave, that "Colorado Crankcase Stout" WON!).  I've been
getting HBD for the majority of time I've been brewing, and it's paid
off.  Maybe I'll get off my duff & join in discussions more often, and
perhaps I'll learn even more.

Kurt Dschida
76132.733 at compuserve.com   or   kdschida at vines.dsd.litton.com

I'd rather have a bottle in front of me, than a frontal lobotomy!

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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:00:06 -0500 (EST)
From: Fred Hardy <fcmbh at access.digex.net>
Subject: Additional CDO HC Winners


Ooops!

ADDITIONAL CAPITOL DISTRICT OPEN AWARDS

Because of the large number of entries in the American Ale Category (30) 
and the even distribution among the three subcategories - 10 each in 
American Pale Ale, American-style IPA and American Brown, the organizing 
committee decided to award 3 second place ribbons in this category.

First place overall went to an American Brown. Omitted from the original 
announcement was the top American Pale Ale (George Fix) and the top 
American-style IPA (Delano DuGarm). Both will receive a second place ribbon.

The organizing committee is also considering making each a separate 
category for the 1996 CDO HC.

My apologies and congratulations to George and Delano.

Fred


==============================================================================
We must invent the future, else it will  |          <Fred Hardy>
happen to us and we will not like it.    |
[Stafford Beer, "Platform for Change"]   |    email: fcmbh at access.digex.net


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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 21:47:01 -0500
From: Stephbrown at aol.com
Subject: Hung over

I have noticed the tendency to sometimes get violently ill on half the beer
that I can other times drink without any problems.  I have also noted two
factors that seem to be tied to it.

Factor #1: If I am under-hydrated before I start drinking, I get sick.  I try
to always drink a lot of water throughout the day BEFORE I start drinking.
 It helps to drink water afterwards too, but it is more important to drink it
before.

Factor #2: The kinds and qualities of beer that I am drinking.  I am not very
tolorant of Bud (sorry to the big three supporters out there) and the like.
 On the other hand, I can drink homebrew until I fall down, and when I wake
up I'm ready to drink some more - after a few glasses of water, of course.

I would also like to hear other people's theories on the reasons for this
strange phenomenon.

Cheers,
Stephen Brown

"Ich kann besseres Bier trinken, wenn ich schon 5 Bier getrunken habe."

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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 1995 23:23:39 -0600
From: dmccull at alabama.com (Douglas A. McCullough)
Subject: Lead in Glass Carboys

A fellow at Alabama Scientific Supply recently expressed concern about lead
in the glass carboys some local brewers use. The carboys, manufactured in
Mexico and offered for sale for about $12 at  locally at Waccamaw, have a
pronounced blue-green tint. He suggests that the tint indictes a lead
content so high that beer, leaching it out, would contain unacceptable lead
levels. He feels that those carboys were made for filling with pennies, not
foodstuffs. Didn't lead poisoning cause Nero to burn Rome? Any comments?
(On lead, not my knowledge of history. What do you expect from an
engineer?)

Doug McCullough



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Date: Mon, 06 Nov 1995 21:41:25 +0800
From: Bob Jones <bjones at bdt.com>
Subject: 1996 Bay Area Brewoff

The Tenth Annual Bay Area Brewoff is scheduled for January 20, 1996 at
Lyon's Brewery Depot in Dublin, Ca. and is hosted by the Draught Board
Homebrew club.

The catagories are as follows :

India Pale Ale
Pale Ale
Bock
Porter
Dry Stout
Barley Wine/Wheat wine
Holiday Beer
Mead

For additional entry information please send me an email.

Thanks,

Bob Jones in Alamo, Calif.
bjones at bdt.com



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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 00:54:29 -0500
From: Wyss1364 at aol.com
Subject: Home Roasted Malt

I've followed the roasted malt thread and I don't think anyone has mentioned
the very concise instructions by Geoff Cooper for making it which are
available from two sources: An Introduction to Old British Beers and How to
Make Them By Dr. John Harrison  or on the web Beer Technical Library at
http://alpha.rollanet.org/library/roastmaltGC.html 
I've used this technique 4 times with great results. Twice to make amber malt
and twice to make brown malt. The best results have been from the brown malt.
 The porters are(were) smooth and creamy after 3 weeks in the keg, with no
harsh bitterness as mentioned by some posters. Brown malt accounted for 20%
of the grist.
My best guess is that the drying period used in this procedure helps to to
reduce over carmelazation of the malt sugars and any nasty bitterness. Many
of the recipes in  Harrison's book call for long aging times which I think
are due to high SG rather than use of roasted malt or high hopping rates.
 Don't give up on home roasted malt. It's just one more element of control
over your finished beer that allows you to give it your mark.


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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 1995 02:38:57 -0600
From: Alan Deaton <amdeaton at gw.hyatt.com>
Subject:  Homebrew Digest #1877 (November 07, 1995) -Reply

I will be out of the office from Monday, 11/6 thru Tuesday 11/7.  If
your problem is an urgent one, please contact Mark Herman.  

/Alan


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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 03:39:45 -0500
From: mdost3+ at pitt.edu (Mike Dowd)
Subject: Avoiding stuck sparge suggestions?

This weekend, I brewed a Weizenbock, using the recipe in
Eric Warner's _German Wheat Beer_.  The decoction mash
(my first) was no problem, I actually enjoyed it, but the
sparge stuck like crazy and generally made my life hell for far
too long.  I was wondering if anyone had any advice for
avoiding this sort of thing in the future, since I would like
to try making more wheat beers someday.  Some details: I
use an EasyMasher in my 5 gallon mashtun for lautering, I
crush the grain with a (non-adjustable) Malt Mill, the recipe
had 6 pounds of German wheat, 4 pounds of Munich, and 5
ounces of Special B (since I couldn't find dark Munich).
Any and all suggestions would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,
                Mike

p.s. In honor of the nightmarish aspects of making this beer,
I'm calling it Franz Kafka Weizenbock.

Michael Dowd                    "I could be mistaken. Maybe it was another
Slippery Slope Research     bald-headed jigsaw-puzzle tattooed naked
University of Pittsburgh     guy I saw."
mdost3+ at pitt.edu                                      -Fox Mulder



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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 13:25:12 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Sparge pH/the big three

Russ writes (quoting me):
>> DO NOT USE GYPSUM TO TRY TO ACIDIFY SPARGE
>> WATER.  ...  If you want to use gypsum to keep the
>> pH of the runnings low, you can do that...
> 
>Okay.  Will adding gypsum to the sparge water help keep tannin extraction 
>down?  That's my main concern with sparge pH.

Yes, but don't measure sparge water pH -- measure the pH of the runnings.
You're using the same Chicago water I am and even with an all DeWolf-Cosyns
Pale Ale malt mash, the runnings pH never got above 5.7 or so even after
8 gallons of runnings from 7 pounds of DWC Pale Ale malt.  If you use the
Pils malt (which has less acidity and therefore the pH ends up higher)
then you may want to add a gram per gallon of gypsum to your sparge water
if the style will allow for the added sulphate dry bitterness.  If you're
making a Pilsner, then, well, you may want to use Phosphoric or Lactic
acid or Calcium Chloride if you can find it in food grade for a reasonable
price (i.e. DON'T use road salt! ;^).  If you do use acids for your sparge
water adjustment, then you do want to measure the sparge water pH -- I
would adjust it to only about 6.5 pH since the mash will have *some*
buffering and if you get the pH too low you will affect the yeast performance
and break formation.

***
Bill writes:
>Have the big three single handedly spoiled the tastes of American beer
>drinkers? I doubt that.  They sell what sells best.   Beer tastes are not
>static, they have been changing for hundreds of years.

I think that they have been leading the tastes.  Before prohibition there
was a lot more diversity in beer and after, not only did diversity disappear
but also the pale beer got paler, blander and *cheaper* to make.  WW II also
was a big step function in terms of beer blandness -- after the war beer was
again quite lamer than before.

and:
>I myself can't seem to get rid of the mindset that the big three just don't
>get it.  But they get it: they please a huge crowd - one that has never heard
>of HBD!

No, they get it alright, but their goal is not better beer, just better
profits.  They own beer *factories* and if they can save $0.0001 per can of
Bud by reducing the bitterness a little, they'll do it.  Look at Eckhardt's
book, The Essentials of Beer Style.  Compare the bitterness of Budweiser
in (I believe) 1980 and (I believe) 1987.  It dropped something like 5 IBUs.
While you may be right that tastes change, I think that advertising and
marketing affect the masses a lot more than flavour and that the big three
simply dictate what the masses will drink.

Not only do they understand the mass market, they also appreciate the
micro revolution -- consider the purchases of Red Hook and Celis.  I think
that good beer is here to stay, but that we're going to keep having to open
new small breweries because the big three are going to keep buying them as
they get big enough to be worth their while.

Finally, you mentioned Bavaria and their big breweries.  Yes, but it's *their*
big breweries not ours that have blandified their tastes.  Look at the big
six in England while you're at it and Interbrew in Belgium.  Taste a bottle
of Verboden Vrucht before and after the Interbrew takeover of DeKluis.  I may
sound like I'm saying BIG BREWERIES == AN INCREASE IN BLANDNESS...

 ... I am.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com

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Date: 6 Nov 95 12:44:00 -0800
From: LARSEN_JIM at Tandem.COM
Subject: pumps and wort


In HBD1867, James Hojel <JTroy at msn.com> passed on some comments by a
Belgian brewmaster regarding damage to wort by centrifugal pumps,
especially at the homebrew (presumably small volume) level. The
brewmaster preferred the use of gravity systems whenever possible.

Does this concern for gentle treatment of the wort extend to whirlpools
(to collect trub and hops in the center of the kettle) and aeration by
agitation?

Jim



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Date: 07 Nov 95 05:12:09 EST
From: Al Stevens <72704.743 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: "Fine Beer"

> how we know many people who easily shell out $20 for a bottle of wine
>but look at us like we have three heads when we talk of buying a $4 or $5 
>bottle of beer. 

Are these not the same people who will go out at night and spend the same on
cheap commercial swill ????


Al Stevens


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Date: Mon, 6 Nov 95 17:47:56 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: re: Trappists

Curt--
Perhaps I'm a little picky, but I was trying to correct a misconception.
Some people don't quite understand Belgian beers in general let alone
the Trappists.  As recently as maybe five or six years ago, I was very
confused about Belgian beers also.  I was under the impression that all
Trappists had lactic components (actually, only Orval has an acidic
note and I believe that this may be from an acid-producing yeast).
My cousin and I had created the term "Belgian Character" to try to give
a name to the aromatic qualities we found common in many Belgian beers.
I now know that this is that spicy/phenolic aroma is the character imparted
by the yeast and is found in many (but not all) Belgian Ales.  I understand
what Russ was trying to say, but I could not let it pass because I felt
it important to curb the spread of this misconception.

True, most Trappist Ales tend to be on the stronger side, but so do most
Belgian Ales.  Frankly, I would have been less apt to comment if he had
said that Biere de Garde had a "Belgian Character."  I think that the
strength and the prevalence of that spicy/phenolic nose among Belgian
Ales is much more widespread than any similarity between various Trappists.

Consider what a British or German (lager) brewmaster would say if he/she had
a test batch with a new yeast smell like Tres Monts, Delerium Tremens
or Stoudt's Tripel...  They would probably seal up the windows and fill the
brewery with sanitizing solution!

Do you see what I mean?

IMO, there is more variety in flavour and aroma among Belgian beers than in
the rest of the world combined.  As they become increasingly available in
the US and as more progressive micros and brewpubs join the ranks of Stoudt's,
Joe's Brewery in Champaign-Urbana (they made a pKriek there) and New Belgium,
the less of a mystery Belgian beers will be.  So get out there and taste
those beers -- seek them out -- talk to your beer store owners -- get them
to carry more Belgian beers -- urge your local micro or brewpub to try a
Belgian style -- convince your fellow club members to share the beers they
bring back from Belgium!

In retrospect, I think that maybe this is of general interest, so I'll
Cc the digest.

Al.

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Date: 07 Nov 95 07:01:38 EST
From: Tim Fields <74247.551 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Iodophor Summary

Here is a summary from my recent question: to rinse or not to rinse iodophor:

All responders said rinsing is not necessary. One uses 30ppm and rinsed and
15ppm and not rinsed.  Other than this comment, nobody rinsed after using 
iodophor, and I don't believe any let the vessel air-dry.  They just let 
it drip for a minute or so.  One responder specifically mentioned yeast 
culturing flasks (no rinsing), others referred to bottles and carboys.  

I think Domenick Venezia best summed up the question of whether to rinse or not:
"So save some time and don't worry about iodophor--it's one of its 
advantages that you've been missing".


"Reeb!"   Tim Fields ... Fairfax, VA
                      timf at relay.com (non-brewing time)
            74247.551 at compuserve.com (weekends)



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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 95 08:41:31 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: Grain Mills

In Digest #1877:
Date:          Sat, 4 Nov 1995 19:51:30 +0500 ET
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       MW of nat.gas, propane, & air / Web pages / Glatt mill
Keith sez:

>And one last question.  I was planning on asking for a Glatt Grain Mill 
>for my birthday, but am now obviously concerned since they are going out 
>of business that the warrently wouldn't be worth much.  It was my 
>understanding that this was *the* mill to have.  So what would the 
>experienced all-grainers recommend?  Buy the Glatt and cross the fingers, 
>or is there a close second placer?

You're lucky. You don't even have to settle for second best if you get a
MaltMill (JSP). Before buying mine I actually tested the three 'most
popular' brands at the time: Glatt, Phills, and the MaltMill. I think the
others are basically junk compared to the MaltMill. Maybe there's a reason
Glatt went belly-up? I have the $100 MM with fixed spacing and have used it
to crush all kinds of grains, including unmalted hard wheat, with no
problems. It's all you need and bullet-proof to boot. No gears to strip
either! Nothing I've seen even comes close to the MaltMill. (No affiliation
with JSP, just a happy customer.)
    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu

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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:40:18 -0500
From: ac051 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Eric W. Miller)
Subject: re: Wheat beer question



jdickins at baste.magibox.net says:

>they all turned out tasting like tea does when you steep the
>teabag too long, BITTER 

The nasty taste you describe as "BITTER" is probably astringency.
That's the tea-like flavor/feeling-in-my-mouth I get at the end
of a sparge.

>My gut feeling is this decoction crap

Let's not get emotional, Jim, this is supposed to be a *fun*
hobby!   

>If anyone has any suggestions, I am open to them.

OK, I'll bite.   

I've read a lot about how pH is very important in decoction
mashing.  I'm not a pH checker and my decoctions have come out
wonderful, but that could just be a sign that I'm lucky enough
to have good brewing water and you're not.  If you're so
inclined, you might want to check the pH of your decoction.  If
I remember correctly it's supposed to be somewhere in the 5.6
to 5.8 range, but check those numbers first.

Another thing to watch is the consistency of the decoction.  I
went overboard with keeping it thick at first and ended up with
something I couldn't stir.  I was trying to heat it too quickly
and scorched the bottom.  Still, it made fine beer, but cleanup
sucked.
 
You may be leaning the other way, with decoctions that are too
thin.  I think that'll have a tendency to leach tannins from the
husks.
 
What I do is draw off the grains using a strainer and then add
water until it's just thin enough to stir (a bit thicker than
oatmeal).
 
Give it another shot.  I'd recommend trying to make an altbier
first (since barley malt is a little easier to work with than
wheat malt) to get the technique down.
 
>As it stands now my wheat
>beer efforts will be put on hold, though I may try a non-decoction wheat
>beer, such as a belgain wit.
 
I did a wit as a triple decoction.  Came out fantastic (took best
of show runner-up in a contest last weekend).
 
Good luck,
 
Eric Miller
Newport, RI

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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 08:42:44 -0500
From: ac051 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Eric W. Miller)
Subject: re: Irish Moss



Brian asks,

>Should I be worried that re-hydrated Irish Moss always smells like
>fish to me?

I've noticed the same smell.  I wouldn't (and don't) worry about it,
though.  After all, I have to stick my nose into the cup that I'm
rehydrating in to smell any sea-smell at all, whereas the beautiful
aroma of malt and hops fills the house.  You should *definitely*
become a professional beer taster if you're able to detect fish
taste in the finished product!

Eric Miller
Newport, RI

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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 1995 09:28:38 -0500
From: "Bob Hall" <bhall at sparc.ecology.uga.edu>
Subject: wheat beer and tannins

Regarding an astringent wheat beer:

>I have brewed several all grain wheat beers following eric warners directions
>to the tee and they all turned out tasting like tea does when you steep the
>teabag too long, BITTER. I am wondering why this might be. I've double
>checked everything I can think of and can come up with nothing. None of my
>other all grains turn out like this. The ONLY way I deviate from e.w. is my
>use of 1# more grain. My gut feeling is this decoction crap, I just knew the
>grains were never meant to be boiled.

Check the pH of the mash - it should be lower than 5.5. If not adjust with 
calcium or acid.  Assuming it is low, there should be no extraction of tannins 
when boiled in a decoction. I have done lots of decoctions and never had a 
tannic beer.  My guess is that the temperature or pH of the sparge water is too 
high, and you are leaching out tannins late in the sparge. Tannins are more 
subject to leaching at high pH. Adjust pH of sparge water with acid 
(lactic/phosphoric) to 5.7 or so, and quit sparging when the the gravity of the 
runoff is 1.010. Wheat beers do not have any of the acidic compounds found in 
dark malts , and may be more suceptible to leaching tannins in the sparge.

Bob Hall


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Date: Tue, 7 Nov 95 10:02:03 EST
From: Pierre Jelenc <pcj1 at columbia.edu>
Subject: Re: Bathing

In HOMEBREW Digest #1877 flemingk at usa.net (Kirk R Fleming) says:
> 
> David Hill in #1875 asks for opinions regarding his idea of an oil
> bath "buffer" for heating a kettle.  I think the idea is not too
> bad, but I'd recommend against using oil as the "working fluid".

Indeed. Chemists solved that question long, long ago with the use of a
sand bath. It works like a charm both as a buffer and as a diffuser, and
is non-toxic as well as non-inflammable. 

Pierre

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Date: Tue, 07 Nov 1995 10:29:51 EST
From: "Calvin Perilloux" <dehtpkn9 at ibmmail.com>
Subject: Uncl: Airlock Fluid and Suck Back


>From HDB 1877:

>I strongly recommend against putting bleach in the airlock...
>...and a touch of vodka in your beer isn't going to hurt anything.

Vodka is the way to go.  It's food grade stuff, it kills bacteria and
yeast given enough contact time (no problem with contact time in this
application), and it's cheap when you use only a half ounce of it at
a time.

>I've seen this suckback problem mentioned before in the digest but have
>never experienced it myself. In fact I never see the levels in the airlo
>indicate anything other than zero to positive differential pressure. Wha
>causes this?

Here's one example:  When using a plastic fermentor, I sometimes got
air sucked back through the lock if I picked up the fermenter to move
it to a colder/warmer location.  The bottom bulges out just a bit,
pulling in a few cubic centimeters of air.  It probably sucked drops
of vodka in, too, but that's no problem.  I'm glad I didn't use bleach!

Another time that I would expect it might happen, but I haven't seen it
in my experience over 60 batches, is that if there is a lot of headspace,
the yeast is almost completely done fermenting, and the beer is then
moved into a lagering phase where the temperature is dropped relatively
quickly from the 50's to the low 30's.  The contraction of the CO2 gas
with the colder temperature could reduce the pressure inside to < 1 ATM.

(A spurious thought:  What about a batch lagering with a lot of head
space during a hurricane, followed the next day by a a strong high
pressure system?  Would the increase in outside pressure cause suck
back?  But then your seals probably aren't THAT tight for such a slow
pressure change, not to mention that I doubt you'd be worrying about
suck back at the time.)

> ...In my opinion, any suck back
> problem draws contaminated outside air into the fermenter and should be
> avoided completely.

I would not put it so strongly unless you are running a closed system
where you never allow outside air to touch your wort or beer at all.
If you are the kind of homebrewer who sanitizes like absolute mad,
aerates only with pure O2, always purges the fermenters with sterile
gas of some sort, who bottles and kegs in a CO2 atmosphere (basically
runs a closed system the whole way from wort to bottle), and never
repitches yeast without analyzing for the few random wild yeasts or
bacteria, then worry about suck back.  If you're like the rest of us
who tend to have less sterile systems, then modest suck back is not
a major source of problems.

Calvin Perilloux                                  "Bayerisches Bier,
dehtpkn9 at ibmmail.com                               Staerker als Heimweh"
Erding, Germany


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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1878, 11/08/95