FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Propane vs Natural Gas / Mashing in Oven - OK? (Jeff Hewit)
  Christmas Shopping for a Homebrewer ("Sharon Hutchinson-Assess.Co-rd")
  stratification (GKING)
  brew club drinking & driving ("Keith Royster")
  RE: Propane use / inside cooking want exhaust system. (Steve Alexander)
  Fritz vs Jim - Again (Paul D. Wiatroski)
  DMS in Lagers (dhvanvalkenburg)
  Home brewers in Safford, Arizona? (Mark Taratoot)
  mills and filters (LARSEN_JIM)
  I FLUBBED (Douglas Thomas)
  thread21 file repair program (gravels)
  stinking fridge/corn sugar priming (Algis R Korzonas)
  Re: What's Your Point Al?/soil science and runnings (Algis R Korzonas)
  Re: Full Sail in Berkeley? (IHomeBrew)
  Dilution responses, Special-B in Scotch Ale?, Multiple Starters, Cal. Lager Yeast? (anonymous-remailer)
  elevated conditioning, quality, sparging, fritz and jim, Hart (ed.lingel)
  Brew Schools (Steve Nellis)
  Riverside Brew Spots? (RANDY ERICKSON)
  Stuck Corks/Laag/TempCtl (WALZENBREW)
  Heineken!?!? ("Dave Draper")
  Deeed by Gott (dludwig)
  Burner data (claytonj)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:11:44 -0500
From: jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu (Jeff Hewit)
Subject: Propane vs Natural Gas / Mashing in Oven - OK?



The propane/NG thread seems to still be going strong, so I
thought I'd jump into the fray.  I used to live in a house with
a propane-fired stove.  The previous resident also had a
propane-fired clothes dryer.  The tanks were outside, and the
gas company came by once a month or so to top off the tanks,
and read the meter.  (I only bought the gas I used, the gas
company owned the gas that was in the tanks.)  It worked pretty
much the same as with users of natural gas.  We had no
problems cooking with propane.  I don't believe the use of
propane indoors is a problem, as long as it is used properly.
As others have noted, many of the stoves built for outdoor use
produce CO.  Clearly, the indoor models shouldn't do that.  One
key point with my previous setup was that the gas was kept
outside, so any leaks in the tank (there were none) would not
result in indoor build ups.  Clearly, any gas system, propane
or NG, should not leak.  Any unit must be used as it was
intended.  Anyone who uses an outdoor burner indoors, even if
near a window or other vent is crazy.  But, I also believe, with
the proper equipment, propane can be used indoors.

*************************************

Reagrding mashing in an oven - can it be done?

I am planning to move from extract/specialty grain to partial
mashes.  For a variety of reasons, I am not planning to go all
grain, but do want to use a few pounds of regular malt in my
brewing.  I am thinking about putting crushed grain in a pot 
with warm water, and putting it in the oven at 155 deg or so.
After about an hour, I would strain with hot water, like I
currently do with specialty grain.  Will this work?
I am also considering buying a mini lauter tun, and
putting it in the oven.  Is this idea any good? 

Thanks for any input on these ideas.

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Hewit                  Eat a live toad first thing in the morning,
Midlothian, Virginia        and nothing worse will happen to you 
                            for the rest of the day.     

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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 08:26:00 PST
From: "Sharon Hutchinson-Assess.Co-rd" <shutchin at msmail.christian.k12.ky.us>
Subject: Christmas Shopping for a Homebrewer


Hello,
I am the wife of a homebrewer---it's a long story but I am responsible for 
getting my husband "hooked" on brewing.  I would like to get him something 
every homebrewer wants  for Christmas. I would appreciate any ideas or your 
list of "top 10 gift ideas for your favorite homebrewer".  He already 
subscribes to many of the "beer" magazines.

Please e-mail any gift ideas to

shutchin at christian.k12.ky.us

or

srhutch at aol.com

Thank you for helping me with my Christmas shopping.

Sharon Hutchinson




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Date: Thu, 30 Nov 1995 11:28:32 -0500 (EST)
From: GKING <GKING at ARSERRC.Gov>
Subject: stratification

In HBD #1894 Dave Draper <david.draper at mq.edu.au> wrote:

>Just to throw in a monkey wrench:  if you take a container full of
>poorly sorted spheres (i.e. big range of grain sizes) and just shake
>it around, the big ones will rise to the top and "float" on the 
>smaller ones.  You *can* try this at home, kids!

This has nothing to do with lautering, but it is interesting.
Not only is the situation Dave describes true, it even makes sense if
you think about it.  It's much easier for smaller spheres to slip down
through the empty spaces between larger spheres than for the opposite
to occur.  While the container is being shaken, the smaller spheres
continue to fall downward through the larger spheres until the empty
spaces become too small to slip through.  The net effect of this sorting
is to shift of the center of mass (or center of gravity, if you prefer)
of the spheres to a lower point, reducing the total gravitational energy
of the spheres.

- --Greg King


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Date:          Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:22:36 +0500 ET
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       brew club drinking & driving

Way-back-when I posted to the digest relating some concerns of my fellow
brewclub members.  The concern arose when I suggested to my club that we
post information concerning the whens and wheres of our meetings and brew
sessions on our web page.  Some of the members felt that the local police
could find out about these meetings from the internet and stake them out
to harrass members as they leave.  I was curious if some of you out there
would have similar concerns, or if you felt the members were
overreacting.  I only received two responses, both of a similar nature,
which seemed to indicate that I did not make myself clear in my original
post.  Following is comments made by one of my responders along with my
responses to "HIM>".  I hope this clears things up. 

HIM> I hope your discussions concluded that this concern is like the plant
HIM> operators at Chernobyl worrying that they might get caught for
HIM> releasing radioactivity and working to cover their tails instead of
HIM> stopping the problem. Drinking and driving is a problem that kills
HIM> tens of thousands of people each year in the U.S. alone and maims
HIM> hundreds of thousands. You probably know someone who has been
HIM> personally affected by this.

me> Your comments are very similar to the comments made by the other 
me> responder.  However, I think perhaps I did not make myself clear in the 
me> original posting.  The concern expressed by my fellow club members was NOT 
me> that they would get caught drinking and driving.  On the contrary, I would 
me> say that most of the club members are responsible drinkers and that they 
me> try to keep tabs on how much they consume, keeping in mind that they will 
me> need to drive home.  These club meetings involve tasting/sampling beer 
me> often times while eating food, not chugging a beer-bong.  

me> I think the concern that they were expressing is that they don't want
me> to be harrassed by cops simply because the cops think that they are
me> driving drunk.  It would be like cops sitting outside of a local bar and
me> stopping people as they leave to see if they are drunk (which they do
me> sometimes). Let's face it, getting stopped by a cop and being asked to
me> submit to a breath-a-lyzer or walk a straight line would be a *major*
me> PITA, regardless of whether (especially if?) you are innocent or not.  
me> I think being harrassed was their concern.

me> The purpose of my post was to see if anybody feels that this is a real 
me> concern.  I, for one, don't see the cops doing such a thing.

HIM> Your club will do homebrewing a much greater service if you arrange
HIM> for carpooling or taxis for your meetings than if you keep the
HIM> details vague on a web site.

me> I agree.  But the reality is that people would simply not come if they
me> were bound to the schedule of a carpool or if they had to pay for a taxi.
me> And people live too far apart for a carpool to be practical or for
me> sharing a taxi to be an option.  For example, I live 30 minutes away from
me> downtown Charlotte, NC, which is where our meetings and brew sessions are. 
me> And we also have members from South Carolina.  People would rather come
me> and go as they please, in their own car, and try to be responsible about
me> how much they consume.  So far this has been successful (knock on wood).

Comments and criticisms are welcome.

Keith Royster - NC DEHNR - Mooresville, NC, USA
Voice: (704) 663-1699 x252
  Fax: (704) 663-6040
email: KRoyster at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us
etalk: KRoyster at ws21.mro.ehnr.state.nc.us
                             

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:31:36 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: RE: Propane use / inside cooking want exhaust system.


In Homebrew Digest #1897 (November 30, 1995) Denis Barsalo wrote:

>Denis Barsalo wrote:
 ...
>
>Then Bob McCowan wrote:
>>Does converting a cajun cooker to NG really make it safe to use inside?  Is
>>propane always unsafe?  Seems to me that many rural houses cook with propane
>>and the inhabitants are not dying of CO poisoning.
>
>        The problem as I understand it is not a CO issue but more the fact
>that propane is heavier than air. Any slight leak or unburned fuel will
>collect in the basement of your house. Sooner or later, an open flame will
>ingnite it and then *BOOM*!
>
>Denis Barsalo

I've used an NG converted Cajun Cooker indoors for most of a year.  I
have a CO detector (color change sort) in the vicinity which has never
shown any indication of CO.

It clearly burns a lot cleaner w/ NG than with Propane in terms of
sooty deposits, and probably cleaner combustion gases too (fewer
hydrocarbons, more CO2 & water).  The NG is 'somewhat' safer than the
propane version because of the cleaner combustion, the smaller
flame and lower BTU rating.  You can still kill yourself and blow up your
home w/ natural gas almost as well as with propane.

There is still a very real danger in using ANY high BTU burner
indoors, since all combustion uses oxygen.  It's quite possible to
imagine someone suffering from lack of oxygen by using one of these in
a closed space w/ poor ventilation.  Also there is the obvious danger
of having a large open flame in an enclosed indoor space.

IMO an NG converted Cajun is 'relatively' safe to use indoors, but I
would NEVER run it unattended or w/o lots of ventilation. Contact you
home fire loss insurer or local fire department for an alternate point
of view.

- --

One issue that never seems to come up in discussions of indoor
brewing is that all water lost during the boil recondenses in the
interior of your home.  If I brew in the cold months in my basement,
this effectively means that something around 1 gallon of water
condenses and drops from my cold water pipes which run around 40F
during the winter. Tho' I personally like the rain forest effect, my
SO doesn't and I am banished to the unheated garage precisely at the
time of year when outdoor brewing is least appealing. 

If someone has a plan for an effective exhaust vent system this
problem as well as the combustion gas problem would both be reduced.

Stevea


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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 14:06:34 -0500
From: gi572 at cleveland.Freenet.Edu (Paul D. Wiatroski)
Subject: Fritz vs Jim - Again

I've tried to stay out of this thread, but I guess I'm being sucked in.
I'm not trying to defend or slam either Jim's or Fritz's business practices,
but I do want to relay what I've read and experienced.
 .
>Ken Schroeder asks: Can anybody cite the last litigation for the Steam
>name brought on by Fritz?
 .
Ken, I don't remember reading about any litigation for the Steam name,
but I do remember reading about Fritz threatening to suit someone in
New Jersey for using the name Liberty Brewing for a brewpub. Apparently
the name is too close to Liberty Ale.
 .
As far as:
 .
> Then the guy tries to buy us off with gimmicks like his contest and
>his stale hops sale.
 .
The hops I received from SA were both fresh and of excellent quality.
This was also the experience of several friends.
 .
Just my 2 cents worth.
 .
Paul Wiatroski

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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 11:48:56 PST
From: dhvanvalkenburg at CCGATE.HAC.COM
Subject: DMS in Lagers

     
     Rob Reed asserts that the cause of DMS in Lagers is caused 
     somehow by the malt.  
     
     I am not sure the roll malt plays, but I have read 
     somewhere (I'm sorry I can't remember the source; think it 
     may be G. Fixx) that a contributing factor to DMS is high 
     starting temperatures.  I can confirm that I have 
     experienced very high DMS in lagers when I pitched the 
     yeast while it was still cooling down.  I thought it would 
     get it off to a quick start if I pitched it at 85-90 and 
     proceeded to cool it down.  The result was a drinkable beer 
     when it was young, but very high DMS after it aged. 
     
     Don Van Valkenburg
     dhvanvalkenburg at ccgate.hac.com


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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 11:55:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Mark Taratoot <taratoot at PEAK.ORG>
Subject: Home brewers in Safford, Arizona?

Greetings.

Some friends of mine who are living in Safford, Arizona have recently
started home brewing.  They are looking for other people in the area who
brew.  They do not have internet access, so I thought I would do them a
favor and post something for them.  If anyone in the Safford area knows of
a home brewing club or home brewing non-entity, would you please email me
so I can pass the information along. 

Thanks
 -mark
taratoot at peak.org

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Date: 1 Dec 95 04:47:00 -0800
From: LARSEN_JIM at Tandem.COM
Subject: mills and filters


In HBD1897, James Hojel <Jtroy at msn.com> wrote:

>Does anyone know if the JS Malt Mill that has been talked about so
much is the same one as the Malt Mill in the Brewers Resource
catalog?

They are different products.

>If not, does anyone have any input on the BR mill v. JS mill?

I own a Schmidling MALTMILL (one word) and am very happy with it.
(Beats the pants off the Corona I used to use.) I have no experience
with the Brewers resource mill.

Also in HBD1897, Jim Bush <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov> wrote:

>Im interested in filters for homebrewers.

Announce you are serving Bud Ice Dry Lite, and no other beverages.
This will filter out most homebrewers.

Jim
larsen_jim at tandem.com
jal at gonix.com



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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 12:16:10 -0800 (PST)
From: Douglas Thomas <thomasd at uchastings.edu>
Subject: I FLUBBED

Yesterday I posted that Hart Brewing made Full Sail.  I want to 
apologize for that.  It is Hart Brewing that is coming to Berkeley (when 
I still do not know), and they brew Pyramid.  I was just in Oregon for 
Thanksgiving, and was surrounded by Full Sail.  My slip.  Thanks to all 
that replied and let me know what's what.  
If anyone has any knowledge of the new brewery in Berkeley, I am still 
interested.  I am also interested in any "Country wine" recipes that 
grandfathers or grandmothers may have made.  If you feel like passing 
those recipes along, please do.
Doug Thomas
thomasd at uchastings.edu


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Date: Fri, 01 Dec 95 15:18:45 EST
From: gravels at TRISMTP.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
Subject: thread21 file repair program

Greetings All,

Back in September I posted to the HBD about a problem with the 
Thread21 file search program.  I also reported the location of a 
program (lfcrlf11.zip) that would fix the files that were downloaded 
from unix based systems and allow Thread21 to read those
files.  I have recently been informed that those locations can no 
longer be accessed.

Stephen Hansen loaded the file into the archives for me:

>I've placed the file lfcrlf11.zip in the thread program directory: 
>/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer/programs/thread.

Thanks Steve.

The program is a DOS based, pkzipped program.  When unzipped there is 
a read.me file that explains how to use the files.  If you have any 
questions drop me an e-mail.  Good luck and hoppy brewing!


           Steve Gravel          Newport, Rhode Island
                gravels at TRISMTP.npt.nuwc.navy.mil
       "Homebrew, it's not just a hobby it's an adventure!"


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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 14:21:32 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: stinking fridge/corn sugar priming

Guy writes:
>to wash it out the vanilla extract and water.  When I asked the future spousal
>unit if the drip pan had been cleaned she responded with "What drip pan?".
>The sucker was encrusted with stuffs (sorry to the technical language) and I
>think that and drain hole may have been the problem.  So now its off to the
>land of lagers.  A summary of ideas follows :

If the smell had been embedded in the plastic lining of the fridge, I have
another solution to add to the list.  Take the fridge outside, remove the
door and point it at the sun for a few days.  Sunlight will not only wipe
out the smell, but also will bleach out the stains from mould.  This worked
for me on a picnic cooler, so I can't see why it won't work on a fridge.  It's
just a little harder to carry outside.  Remove the door off the hinges so you
don't trap any little kids.

***
Doug writes:
>I have to disagree with this. I can _always_ tell by taste when a 
>batch was primed with corn sugar. Even 1/2 cup to prime a 5 gallon 
>batch leaves a winey taste signature that detracts from the beer's
>quality. It was for this reason that I used DME to prime (back in the
>olden days when I still carbonated that way...).

I have to disagree with Doug on this.  Glucose is a part of all worts.
Glucose and fructose together are typically 8.9% of the wort and sucrose
is another 5.5% (MBS, p.268).  I mention sucrose because yeast can't eat
sucrose diretly, so they release invertase which breaks the sucrose into
its component glucose and fructose molecules.  When you consider the
typical homebrewer's wort is, let's say 1.050 and that 1/2 cup of corn
sugar is about 2.5 ounces, that 1/2 cup of corn sugar adds about 0.0015
to the gravity of the beer. That's 3%.  This is such a small increase in
glucose content that I can't believe that anything except a HPLC can
tell the difference.  Furthermore, excessive refined sugars have been blamed
for *cidery* flavors, not winey.  Winey tastes have been attributed to
higher alcohols (Terry Foster, Zymurgy Troubleshooting SI, 1987), but
Philippe Perpette (studying for his phD in brewing in Belgium, I believe)
at his Spirit of Belium talk last year said that glucose actually *reduced*
the production of higher alcohols!  [Gosh, I just scared myself.]

Al.

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 14:28:55 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Re: What's Your Point Al?/soil science and runnings


I'm sorry if this comes through twice, but I found a typo in the first
version and cancelled it two days ago and still no sign in the HBD, so
I guess that I correctly cancelled it.  In any event:

I wrote:
>Incidentally, the drawings in the Brewing Techniques articles look hauntingly
>similar to ones I drew (in ascii art) and posted to HBD on October 26, 1992.

To which John responded:
>If you will remember, we exchanged email on this very subject. The day after I
>submitted my article to Brewing Techniques, I was browsing at The Brewery Web
>Page and found your 1992 post listed there in the Technical Library. I
>IMMEDIATELY emailed you and mentioned the similarity of the drawings to what
>was going to appear in BT. You Thanked me for notifying you of the coincidence
>and said that you would have indeed been upset to have seen those illustrations
>without any reference to your previous post, assuming that they were the
>source. I explained that I had not joined the HBD until the following spring
>and had never seen your post until (today). I thought we ended the 4 post
>exchange with the understanding that I had not plagiarized your work. Do you
>wish to re-visit that discussion via your statement above, or is it merely a
>misunderstanding over a poorly worded afterthought?

A bad day, actually.  I wanted to discuss this with John before posting
a reply and, in fact, that's what I should have done before I made the
initial, rather underhanded, post.  My recollection of the email exchange
was that John said he would add a reference to my post in his article.  I
finally got caught up on my reading BT and came across John's article.  When
I didn't see any reference to my post, I was a little hurt.  That, combined
with a bad day and not enought sleep resulted in my adding the stab at John
at the end of my post.  In private email, John and I just discussed what
happened and all is well.  So I'd like to take this opportunity to publicly
appologize to John and to the HBD community for wasting all this bandwidth.

***

On a related note, just to try to add something brewing related,
John writes:
>With a properly saturated, fluid mash, the grist will stratify (not sure if
>thats the proper term...) such that the heavier particles and husks will
>settle toward the bottom providing the filter bed. Greg Noonan has a
>illustration of this in his book, Brewing Lager Beer. If you stir your mash
>during, you will facilitate this alluvial stratification (any soil
>scientists in the house? Dave?).
 
Dave responds:
>Well, I am not a soil scientist, but actually soil is not the best
>analogy.  Deposition on the bottom of a river or lake would be
>better.  Hell, I'm not a sedimentologist either!  But: stratify is
>indeed the proper term there John;

While a soil scientist may not be the right person to talk to regarding
the stratification, I believe that a soil scientist would be the right
person to talk to regarding the channelling that may occur during runoff.
I talked to my dad (a civil engineer) about this before my, now infamous,
post from October 1992 and he's the one who told me about channelling.
I mentioned channelling again in some more recent posts in which I said
that stirring the mash only increases channelling.  Think about it: if
you stick a knife or spoon into a mash and cut a "gorge" into it, the
sparge water above the mash will pour into this "gorge" you created.
Once the flow begins down this path (a sort of mini 3-D river in the
grain bed), this is now the path of least resistance and the sparge
water will tend to take this path down to the outlet -- whatever it's
design or configuration.

I think there are two issues here: 1) the layout of grain in the mash
tun and 2) the course that runnings take as they travel from the top
to the outlet of the lauter tun.

Incidentally, I'm pretty sure that the sorting of the grain particles
is not as compleat as Greg Noonan has pictured.  I know I posted about
this some time in 1995, but I can't think of what to search for.  Any
way, the point is that initially, there may be *some* stratification but,
as Dave said in his post, the particles will, for the most part, be
poorly sorted.  As we take runnings, the smallest particles near the
outlet will get washed out (that's the cloudy runnings).  Larger pieces
will get trapped by the screen, perforated bottom, whatever.  Smaller
particles *higher up* in the grain bed will be trapped by the larger
pieces that are now forming the beginnings of the filter bed.  If we
indeed had to wait until all the large pieces were at the bottom, followed
by medium-sized pieces, followed by the small pieces, then we would be
recirculating for hours.  Perhaps more ascii art.  In the following
drawings, the two tuns represent the same tun at the beginning of the
runoff and a short while after that.  The a, b, c and d represent small
particles of husk, acrospire and other small pieces of insoluble stuff:


               initial                     a short while later
   |                              | |                              |
   |\,\.\.\.\,/.\,./\,\.//,\\.//,/| |,.\/\,''/\,./\'/,.\'/,.\'/,\.'|
   |,.\/,.\\/\/\\/\,./\\/./,\./,\/| |,/.\\,///.\,//.\,\/\\,.//,\/\.|
   |,.\/,.\\/\/\\/\,./\\/./,\c/,\/| |,/.\,\.\,\,.\,\.\,.\,.\,.\,\,.|
   |\,\.\.\.\,/d\,./\,\.//,\\.//,/| |,.\/\,''/\,./\'/,.\'/,.\'/,\.'|
   |,.\\,'.\,',\\.''\\,'.\\,'/\,'.| |,\,\.\,\,.\,\.\,.\,.\,.\,\,.\.|
   |\,\.\.\.\,/.\,./\,\.//,\\.//,/| |\\,\.\,\,.\,\.\,.\,.\,.\,\,.\'|
   |,.\/,a\\/\/\\/\b./\\/./,\//,\/| |,/.\\,///d\,//.\,\/\\,c//,\/\.|
   |\,\.\.\.\,/.\,./\,\.//,\\\//,/| |\\\\/\/\//\/\/\\/\,/\/\\/\//\'|
   |,.\/,.\\/\/\\/\,./\\/./,\./,\/| |\/\\\,///\\,//\\/\/\\\\//\\/\/|
    ------------------------------   ------------------------------

                                               a      b


I do think we need a soil scientist to verify if this can be modeled
and then coded to test various designs.

Al.



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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 16:18:45 -0500
From: IHomeBrew at aol.com
Subject: Re: Full Sail in Berkeley?

in #1898, Doug wrote:
> Just recently, Hart Brewing co applied for permits to build a 30,000 sq 
> ft brewery in Berkeley CA ... wanted to know if ... they will be brewing 
> Full Sail or doing a new set of brews.  
I think that there may be a few legal squabbles if Hart Brewing starts
brewing Full Sail because Full Sail Ales are not brewed by Hart Brewing in
the first place.  Hart Brewing brews Pyramid and Thomas Kemper beers out of
Kalama (WA), Seattle (WA), and Polusbo (WA).  Full Sail Ales are brewed in
Hood River (OR) and Portland (OR) and from what I know, there is no
connection between the two breweries.

"Government is not the solution to our problem; government is the problem."
 -- Ronald Reagan
Clark Ritchie, Tacoma, WA

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:42:44 -0800
From: anonymous-remailer at shell.portal.com
Subject: Dilution responses, Special-B in Scotch Ale?, Multiple Starters, Cal. Lager Yeast?

Thanks for all the responses about high gravity fermentation with a dilution
in the secondary!  Out of 10 replies I recieved, about half said that they had 
done so in the past with no problem and half said "no way dude".  The negative 
responders brought up the point that higher primary fermentation would produce 
more esters and fusil alcohols.  Because the final product will be a Mild Ale, 
I don't belive these effects will be large enough for concern.  The SG for 
primary will only be around 1.064 or so which is the same gravity I get for my 
strong brown ale.  Actually a few extra esters in a mild would be welcome.  
The problems would probably be magnified at higher SGs though.  Any more 
thoughts on the subject?  (Looks like I'll be trying it after Christmas.)
==============================================================================

I recently made a Scotch Ale using a little Special-B (2oz.) and some peated 
malt (4oz.).  Not enough smoky flavor and a weird rasiny taste.  I've gotten 
the raisin flavor from Special-B before but only when I used half a pound in a 
light ale.  The peated malt seems to have magnified it quite a bit.  This was 
the first time I've used peated malt so I think I used way to little.

Has anyone else had similar results mixing the two?
==============================================================================

A yeast "trick" that a friend and I use to stretch the scarce dollar is to 
make multiple starters from one pack of liquid yeast and trade them.  We make 
up a few pints of wort, split it among 3 or 4 starter jugs, inoculate one, 
then mix between all of them.  This makes several small starters that we step 
up and use.  I've not had any problems keeping starters that go dormant for up 
to a month.  About a week before using one, I add fresh wort and get it going 
well before brew day.  (I also repitch into the secondary to get more batches 
per packet.)

So far everything works well.  (Well, I told you I was frugal!!! :-)
==============================================================================

Can anyone tell me how well the Wyeast Cal. Lager yeast at lower temps?  I 
know it does well up to the mid 60's but don't know how low it will go.  Does 
it have good lager characteristics in the low 50's?
=============================================================================

Thanks in advance!
Tim at mbmgsun.mtech.edu
Butte, Montana

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 95 13:51:51 PST
From: ed.lingel at bangate1.TEK.COM
Subject: elevated conditioning, quality, sparging, fritz and jim, Hart

Peter Maxwell writes:

|I'd be interested to know if anyone has experience with elevated 
temperatures
|after bottling.  What would be the effect of, for example, leaving the 
bottles
|at 80F immediately after bottling, to speed up carbonation?  Sometimes my
|ales take up to 3 weeks to properly carbonate at 68F.  Would the elevated
|temperatures produce undesired flavors?

I wouldn't recommend it.  While it can help speed up carbonation 
it can also speed up oxidation.  Beers I've tasted that used this 
method to speed up carbonation often tasted cardboardy.

- ---------

Russell Mast writes:

|I assert that there IS such a thing as "quality" which is independant 
from 
|considerations of "individual taste" difference.

"Quality" means different things to different people.  From discussions 
I've read on the HBD (not necessarily in Russell's post), for many people 
"quality" means "I like the taste".  Since tastes vary between 
individuals, arguing about "quality" is pointless.

- ---------

A. J. deLange writes:

 ..(excellent advice deleted)...
|Check the gravity in the kettle before and towards the end of
|the boil and add as much water as is neceseeary or lengthen the boil as
|necessary to hit the target volume and gravity at the end of the boil. In
|doing this make allowance for any water you will use to sparge the hops.

If you rinse the hops (isn't that an inappropriate use of the term 
"sparge"?) you'll end up with the hot break material in the fermenter.  
I've always tried to keep the hot break out of the fermenter, but are 
you saying it doesn't matter?

- ---------

Ken Schroeder writes:

|I think what Brian missed is that Fritz claims the name Steam. 

More than that, "Steam" is so closely associated with "Anchor" that many 
believe the name of the company is Anchor Steam Brewing Co.

|koch appears to want to litigate competition out of business.
|Fritz helps build competition (Sierra Nevada, Mendicino, Mad River, 
Albion, 
|ect). 

I must have missed something here.  Both are trying to protect names 
they are using (or plan to use?).  I don't think either is trying to 
put anyone out of business.  But what has Fritz done to build competition?

|Can anybody cite the last 
|litigation for the Steam name brought on by Fritz? I can't. 

How about a litigation for another name Anchor claims: Liberty.

When a small microbrewery in Oregon was just getting started they planned 
on calling it Liberty Brewing Company (in fact this name still exists in 
some brewery lists on the net).  Anchor lawyers didn't feel that would be 
a good idea, since people may confuse Liberty Brewing products with Anchor 
Liberty ale.  Liberty Brewing was convinced to change its name to Saxer 
Brewing Company.

|The brewing 
|business, at least at the smaller levels, is more a brotherhood. Brewers 
help 
|brewers, drink each other's beer, seek advice and judgment on beer and 
|business matters. Fritz plays the game in this mamnner. koch, simply put, 
|violates this brotherhood. 

In what way?  By suing people that use beer names similar to his?
How is this different than what Fritz (or Bert Grant, or Pyramid, 
or others) has done?

|Then the guy tries to buy us off with gimmicks like his contest and 
|his stale hops sale. 

No matter what Boston Brewing Co does, people are going to accuse them 
of having ulterior motives.  

- ---------

Doug Thomas writes:

|Just recently, Hart Brewing co applied for permits to build a 30,000 sq 
|ft brewery in Berkeley CA.  There were some problems, but now that is all 
|cleared up.  I just wanted to know if anyone had heard of when the new 
|brewery was supposed to be coming in and if they will be brewing Full 
|Sail or doing a new set of brews.  

Hart Brewing Co brews Pyramid ales and Thomas Kemper lagers.
Full Sail beers are brewed by Full Sail Brewing Company.

- ---------

Ed Lingel, Portland  OR
ed.lingel at tek.com

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:15:53 -0800
From: snellis at hooked.net (Steve Nellis)
Subject: Brew Schools

Greetings fellow brewers-

After months of consideration, I've decided to go back to school.  I am
seeking advice on Brewery Schools.  I've read the reviews of the various
brew-schools that have been featured in _Brewing Techniques_.  Because I
live fairly close to Davis, Ca., the American Brewer's Guild is the most
likely choice.  From what I could glean from the article; they train you for
4 weeks in classes, then apprentice you out to a brewery for 5 more weeks.
A final week of classes follows the apprenticeship period.


Questions:

Has anyone gone to this establishment?
What are the employment possibilities and expected salary ranges?
Would having a degree/certificate/training be required or is it possible to
apprentice with a brewery, then maybe go to school?
Are there any other Brewery Schools in the greater SF Bay area?


I desire to work in a brewery, but not as just full-time menial labor.
Don't get me wrong... I rather enjoy hard work...it makes the beer taste
better.  But I can do more.  I also realize that this a brewing forum and
not a career-guidance group.  There are plenty of smart and experienced
brewers out there who are doing this professionally.  I guess I wanna know
how they *did it*.

Any replies would be greatly appreciated.  Private e-mail preferred  as I
don't wish to waste bandwidth with something like this.  Again, thank you.
- --

steve nellis
snellis at hooked.net


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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 15:55:10 -0800
From: RANDY ERICKSON <RANDYE at mid.org>
Subject:  Riverside Brew Spots?


Greetings:

A buddy and I will be in Riverside, California next week.  Anyone know
of a good spot for great beer?  We'll be staying near the University.

I'm in the mood for a good Brown Sky Brown Ale, or something similar.

Thanks -- Randy


Randy Erickson
Modesto Irrigation District
Modesto, California


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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 18:59:37 -0500
From: WALZENBREW at aol.com
Subject: Stuck Corks/Laag/TempCtl

Another method of removing a stuck stopper is to use a cloth napkin. 
This is an old trick for removing corks from empty wine bottles.  The
method is to fold the napkin into a tube around the corner (corner is in
the center) and insert it into the carboy.  By shaking the carboy,
position the cork on the napkin such that it's surrounded by the napkin,
and slowly pull it out.  May be easier to get it out small side first. 
Never done this with a carboy, but it works great for wine bottle
salvage.

On Laaglander dry malt: Been using it for about seven years with great
results.  Never had any noticable problems with off-flavors due to the
malt.  As far as a high terminal gravity, never noticied any difference
between Laadlander DLME and, say, Briess Brewers Gold Dry or
Munton & Fison Dried Light when these were substituted for Laaglander
in the same multi-malt recipes.

Don't know about any added dextrose, but if there is any in there it
hasn't been possible to taste it, even in 100% Laaglander extract
lagers.

On Temperature Controls: Three basic choices: Williams Brewing
mechanical control, the Hunter AirStat, and the Brewers Resource digital
control, which also can control a heater.  All will work, but the
Williams will require an additional thermometer (max/min recording is
best), the Hunter only goes down to 40 degrees without modifying the
probe, and the Brewers Resource unit, which is functionally the best, is
also the most expensive.

Williams Unit: $59 from Williams Brewing, 2594 Nicholson St, San
Leandro, CA 94577, 1-800-759-6025

Hunter AirStat: $35 or so from a number of mail-order sources - check
the ads in your favorite homebrew mag.  If they advertise a "digital
override control" or something similar in this price range you can bet
it's this unit.  Note that this unit isn't made anymore; these units are
being sold until the supply runs out.

Brewers Resource FermTemp: $89.90 from Brewers Resource, 409 Calle San
Pablo #104, Camarillo, CA 93012, 1-800-827-3983

If you use a freezer or an old single-door fridge from the 1950s, note
that these can freeze a carboy solid if the override control fails (made
a great, but unintentional, "icebock" this way once).  A good idea is to
use the internal control as a failsafe - do a test with the internal
control set to it's lowest position and measure how cold it gets.  If it
gets below 35 degrees and no colder than 28 it won't freeze up your
carboy if the override control fails, but it'll still work OK to lager. 
Set to a setting that gives this temp range before connecting up
your override control.

Cheers,
Greg Walz
Pittsburgh, PA

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Date: Sat, 2 Dec 1995 11:50:14 +10
From: "Dave Draper" <david.draper at mq.edu.au>
Subject: Heineken!?!?

Dear Friends, those of you who have been around awhile will remember 
that Ulick Stafford used to quote Dennis Hopper in _Blue Velvet_ in 
his signature line: "Heineken?!?!? F&%$ that s# at $! Pabst Blue 
Ribbon!!!"  If any of you  would like that sound clip, it is 
currently available on my Sounds web page...just go to the URL in the 
sig below and follow your nose to the Sounds section in "Other 
films".  Sorry for the marginal beer relevance.

Cheers, Dave in Sydney
"Why am I typing when I could be brewing?" ---Gary Bell
- ---
***************************************************************************
David S. Draper, Earth Sciences, Macquarie University, Sydney NSW Australia
Email: david.draper at mq.edu.au  Home page: http://www.ocs.mq.edu.au/~ddraper
                ...I'm not from here, I just live here...

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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 23:02:19 -0500
From: dludwig at ameritel.net
Subject: Deeed by Gott

> From: winters at ICD.Teradyne.COM (Ed Winters )
> Subject: Mash tun/Specialty Grains?/Propane
> 
> Mash Tun
> I bought a round Gott cooler for my mashing when I began all-grain several
> years ago.  It was a disaster!  I believed I could just simply add boiling
> water to increase the temp....  How do you
> "cooler" users add heat to the mash?

Hot tap water and boiling water works; in the right proportions. I use a 5
gal Gott and usually use 10 lbs of grains for a 5 gal batch. I'm still
zeroing in on a procedure but for my last batch (a porter), I used 10 lbs
grains, added 1.5 gal hot tap water (127 deg F) yielding 112 deg F mash
followed by 2.5 gal <212 deg F water yielding 159 deg F! Too hot so I
stirred frequently to get the temp down.
My previous two wheat beer batches, I ended up too low on temp and just drew
off a gallon or so of liquid, heated and re-added to the mash. It's just a
matter of figuring out the right proportions of mass and heat. Point is, you
can get there. Just takes a little experimenting. There have been several
posts recently on controling/changing your mash heat. Search them out. -
Dave in Southern, MD


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Date: Fri, 1 Dec 1995 13:24:39 -0500
From: claytonj at cc.tacom.army.mil
Subject: Burner data 

  Howdy,
  
  With all of the talk about converting burners from propane to natural 
  gas, I thought I'd pass along info I learned in my quest for the perfect 
  burner.  
  
  My goal was to have a dual fuel burner to use natural gas for brewing in 
  my garage and propane for brewing and cooking elsewhere.  The guy at the 
  propane distributor (great supply of burners, heaters and grill parts) 
  explained the difference between jet burners and ring burners as:  
  
  Jet burners use high pressure fuel and have usually one burner jet.  They 
  produce very high BTUs and are designed to be run full blast.  They are 
  not very efficient and produce a higher level of combustion byproducts, 
  even more so when you try to throttle them down.  Because the fuel needs 
  to be "high pressure" (relative term of course) they can't be converted 
  to natural gas which is regulated at the house gas meter.
  
  Ring burners use low pressure fuel and have a number of jets in the 
  burner.  The low pressure design allows the flame to be easily adjusted 
  without losing much efficiency but they don't put out the high BTUs.  The 
  level of combustion byproducts is lower due to the better efficiency.  
  The low pressure design allows it to be converted to natural gas by 
  drilling a propane orifice to .035" (the regulated propane pressure is 
  about the same as the household natural gas pressure).
  
  I purchased the Superb 35K BTU burner, which comes set up for propane and 
  a second supply hose and control valve, with .035" orifice, to connect to 
  the natural gas line in my garage.  He said I could increase the diameter 
  of the orifice a bit more if it wasn't hot enough.  I got enough hose to 
  boil outside in the summer and inside in the winter (windows open of 
  course).  I'm waiting until I get my boiling keg to try it out, so I do 
  not yet know how it works.
  
  Hope this helps.
  
  Cheers,
  
  Joe Clayton
  Farmington Hills, Michigan  USA
  ak753 at detroit.freenet.org (preferred) 
  claytonj at cc.tacom.army.mil (if you must)  

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1900, 12/04/95