FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Freezing Yeast (Frank Adams)
  Malt extract profile (DiaGenetics)
  Steam Condensation (Merino Lithographics)
  Priming with Honey (Tom Neary)
  Using Dishwasher to Sanitize bottles (Jeff Hewit)
  New brewer wants advice about all grain (Tom Leith)
  Re: Wine? (Jeffrey Johnson)
  priming qty/ FG (PatrickM50)
  Adjunct FAQ (Delano Dugarm 36478)
  Homebrew Stores in Fayetteville, NC? ("Zoller, J 2LT             SUPT")
  Russian Beer Lovers Party. (MURPHYJ)
  Fullers ESB (Ian Smith)
  custom caps/belgian malt extract (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
  NaCl / Salt ? ("Frederick L. Pauly")
  Beer Filters & Wine Filters: Are they the same? (Mitch Hogg)
  Re: EasyMasher (tgaskell)
  Question about steam generators (Christopher P. Weirup)
  re: Koch, et al ("Gregg A. Howard")
  Wheat/Bottling Trick ("Herb B. Tuten")
  Wild yeasts (Sean Cox)
  temp. controls (Kyle Kotwica)
  Kegging ("Matt Williams")
  SOME EQUIPMENT NOTES (ROTH.TER)
  Belgian malt/SNPA yeast/30 p-lb-gal/carbonation/advancing questions (Algis R Korzonas)
  Overpitching? (Jim Cave)
  re: yes you can overpitch (Dan McConnell)
  Re: decoction Vs infusion mashing (Robert Bush)
  Kwass (Rolland Everitt)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Wed, 6 Dec 1995 21:27:22 -0800 (PST)
From: Frank Adams <adamsf at netcom.com>
Subject: Freezing Yeast

Does anyone have experience freezing down yeast for storage.  Papazain 
says that it should be in 10% glycerine but is sketchy about the 
procedure.  I just took 1 cc of glycerine and added 9 cc of starter wort 
that had been innoculated w wyeast 1007 about three days before hand and 
stuck it in the freezer.   Anyone have a fixed and tried protocol for 
doing this?   Thanks in advance,
Frank

|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~|
| Frank S. Adams, Ph.D.  |        Adamsf at netcom.com   |
| 1573 Jackson St.       |        Phone & Fax:        |
| Denver, CO 80206-1920  |        (303) 399 9718      |
|                        |                            |
```````````````````````````````````````````````````````



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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:12:58 +0200 (IST)
From: diagen at netvision.net.il (DiaGenetics)
Subject: Malt extract profile

A friend of mine received some dry malt extract from a supplier of baking
additives. Do you know if there is any fundamental difference between DME
used for backing and DME for brewing?
He also received the profile for his DME. Following are some figures out of it:
Reducing sugars (as maltose) 55-65%
Protein 5.0-7.0%
Fructose 1-3%
Glucose 6-10%
Sucrose 1-4%
Maltose 37-44%
Maltotriose 10-18%
Oligo-Saccharides 24-30%
Color, EBC 10-200 (These guys must be color blind...)
and a few other less interesting data points.

Any comments would be highly appreciated.




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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 21:25:37 +1000
From: merino at cynergy.com.au (Merino Lithographics)
Subject: Steam Condensation

Bob Cowan posted,
>Steam injection:
>Can one easily steam heat without injecting the steam into the mash/boil?.
>Most of the heat comes from the latent heat of vaporization.  Suppose you
>use a sufficient length of copper to let the condensed water drain outside
>the mashtun or kettle, or does that give you too much water hammer, and blow
>your relief valve?

For steam to condense at above 100C, it must be generated and transported
under pressure. For steam to travel without condensation down lines that
loose heat it must be superheated, to loose heat without becoming saturated. 
The superheated part can be accomplished without significant pressure( As
described in HBD #1902), but condensation requires sufficient exchange area,
a safe condensate trap and usually a pressurised system. This system falls
under the ASME or Steam Regulations. You can't afford the engineering or the
wages of the steam ticketed operator.

You could get some condensation in a long coil in your tun or kettle, but
you need pressure relief into the wort to avoid a high pressure system, or
you waste most heat through some other pressure relief system, like open air
venting. At low pressure the steam wouldn't condense until it was about
100C. Also, I wouldn't play with water hammer in a coil, it is like a gun.
Messy, grumpy and possibly dangerous.

Commercially pressure jackets are built around the kettle, with high
pressure "dosing pumps" to recirculate the condensate as "feed water". A
"calandria" or condensing device in the middle of the kettle is also used.
It's a bit like an old fasion coffee perculator. You also need a controller
on your fuel linked to your steam pressure. Also some means of "blowing
down" concentrated water in the boiler. All this costs much more than simple
steam injection.

My suggestions in HBD #1902 can be upscaled to the DIY pubbrewery scale to
avoid the extra capital costs of steam.

Charlie (Brisbane, Australia)


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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 07:34:00 -0500
From: tom.neary at peri.com (Tom Neary)
Subject: Priming with Honey


Has anybody ever primed with honey instead of corn sugar?  I have read
that 1 cup of honey is enough to prime 5 gallons of beer.  I would like
to know if you have to boil the honey with a pint of water before adding
it to the beer?   Does the honey carbonate as well as the corn sugar?


thanks in advance,

Tom

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:09:00 -0500
From: jhewit at freenet.vcu.edu (Jeff Hewit)
Subject: Using Dishwasher to Sanitize bottles



A few issues ago, Mike Moss asked about using the dishwasher to
sanitize bottles.  I have been using the diswasher since I
started home brewing, and have successfully bottled almost 20
batches so far.  One key point is to start with clean bottles.
I rinse out each bottle right after I pour a beer.  It's much
easier to rinse out yeast and sediment when it's wet than
waiting for it to dry and harden.  I then run the empty bottles
through with the rest of the dishes before storing them.  When
I'm getting ready to bottle, I load all the bottles in the
dishwasher.  I run it through a full wash/rinse cycle, set with
heat option, using B-Brite in the wash and bleach in the
rinse.  When it gets to the air dry stage, I interupt, and
start over with a full wash/rinse/heat dry cycle, with no
detergent or bleach to give the bottles a full rinse.  After
the dry cycle part is over, it takes forever for the bottles to
cool.  I recommend starting the process in the evening, letting
the bottles cool over night, and bottling in the morning.  I
may be over doing it a bit, but there is almost no effort to
this procedure.  This is one part of the brewing process where I am
happy to let the machines do the work.  

Hope this helps.  Brew on!

- --
- -----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Hewit              Eat a live toad first thing in the morning,
Midlothian, Virginia    and nothing worse will happen to you for
                        the rest of the day.  

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:28:03 -0600 (CST)
From: Tom Leith <trl at wuerl.wustl.edu>
Subject: New brewer wants advice about all grain

 
Bob Tortajada asks some questions:
 
> I would like to explore all grain and/or 
> full volume boiling and would like some advice. 

Well, you're in luck -- there's no shortage of advice on HBD. 
 
> 1) I see alot of talk about steam injection mashing with complicated 
>    equipment. Is all grain really that much more complicated than extract 
>    brewing? 

In a word, "no" -- its not "that much more complicated". Its only
"somewhat more complicated". You can make it as complicated as you want,
however. What mashers do is produce their own extract. When they're
through doing that, the process is the same. 

> Is there an easier way to get started in all grain brewing 
> than building a steam injection system?

Certainly. I've been mashing for several years, and I don't do steam 
injection, ever. The easiest thing to do is the single-temperature 
infusion. This method is particularly appropriate for British style 
beers, but I have made some very good Continential beers this way by 
choosing well-modified malts (I'm a big DeWolf fan). Note that many if 
not most microbreweries have no ability to heat their mash tuns -- they 
do single-temperature infusions.

Here's what you do: fill up your mash tun with a measured amount of water
at a known temperature, add your weighed-out grain also at a known
temperature, stir for a bit, and it comes to rest at your selected mash
temperature. 

Here is a *starting point* for you: I use 1-1/4 quarts of water per pound
of grain every time I mash. My grain is about 50F because its in a cold
room in my basement. The water needs to be 12 degrees above the mash
temperature I want for this to work out. If I want a 153F mash, the water
needs to be 153 + 12 = 165F. Note that your mash tun will absorb some heat
too -- I heat my water a few degrees higher, pour it in my mash tun, and
wait for it to fall back down to the target temperature. This heats the 
mash tun.

Here is an equation I scarfed off the net awhile back (thanks to whoever
posted it) -- you'll need to solve for T in order to use it. If you use
the same ratio of water to grain, and your grain is about the same
temperature every time you brew, you need solve this only once. Most grain
will be 3-4% moisture when fresh. You may find by experience that you need
to adjust a bit from the figure you calculate. It could be that your grain
has absorbed moisture over time... 

Paraphased from _Malting and Brewing Science_ by Hough, Briggs and Stevens
 
                     St + RT     1/2H
Mash Temperature  = --------- + ------
                      S + R      S + R
 
S - Specific heat of malt
t - temperature of malt
R - ratio of water to grist by weight
T - temperature of the water (strike heat)
H - slaking heat of the malt at mash temperature
 
The formula is applicable to both centigrade and fahrenheit providing
terms are expressed in the appropriate units, but the table below is for 
degrees F. The slaking heat is given at 150F, just use it as a close 
approximation no matter what your real mash temperature is going to be. 
FYI, water weighs 8-1/3# per gallon.
 
 
Table 10.1:
 
Specific heat and slaking heat of a malt at various moisture contents
 
                                 slaking heat at
% moisture    specific heat   mashing temp of 150F
    0            0.38               33.5
    1            0.38               29.0
    2            0.39               25.0
    4            0.40               18.8
    6            0.41               14.5
    8            0.42               12.4
 
 
> 2) Is there a good source for malted grain? 

Several. Start at your local homebrew shop. If you order in quantity, 
they can probably give you a price competitive with mail order. Keep in 
mind that UPS will run about $.13/# if you ship 200# or more. The rates 
are higher if you ship less. If you want only 10# or so, the price is 
driven up by the labor involved in repackaging for you.  
 
> 3) Can I build a wort cooler out of a copper coil submerged in the wort 
> with cold tap water running through it?

Absolutely. You'll want 50' of 1/4" ID copper tubing. You can make it 
yourself by coiling the tubing around a plastic bucket, or buy it already 
made up. It takes about 40 minutes to chill 5-1/2 gallons this way. 

You might want to buy the current Zymurgy Special Issue -- it covers 
all-grain brewing in detail. I'm also a fan of Dave Miller's books on the 
topic.
 
> I realize these may be stupid questions but 
> I am new to this so please beer with me.
                             ^^^^
NOPE!! There are no stupid questions: there are often stupid answers (and 
sometimes stupid puns).
 
	t
=============================================================================
Tom Leith                           InterNet:   trl at wuerl.WUstl.EDU
4434 Dewey Ave.                   CompuServe:   70441,3536
St. Louis, Missouri  63116
                                           "Tho' I could not caution all
314/362-6965 - Office                       I still might warn a few: 
314/362-6971 - Office Fax                   Don't lend your hand
314/481-2512 - Home + Infernal Machine      to raise no flag
                                            atop no Ship of Fools"  R. Hunter
=============================================================================
 



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Date: 07 Dec 95 09:49:59 EST
From: Jeffrey Johnson <76416.3306 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Re: Wine?

In HBD 1903 Doug Thomas posts about a book called "Fortunes in Formulas" that
has "some very strange beer recipes" as well as a recipe for Kwass.

Doug,

I haven't made of tried Kwass, but I think the HBD would be interested in some
of those "very strange beer recipes".  Could you post some of those?

Cheers,
Jeff Johnson - jjohnson at lanier.com


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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:55:16 -0500
From: PatrickM50 at aol.com
Subject: priming qty/ FG

Ken Koupal asks:
>>>>>
For the past 15 years I've been using Byron Burch's book's formula of 1/4 cup

     corn sugar per gallon (or 5/4 cup corn sugar, in 1-2 cups water.)  I 
     don't think I'm over-priming.  If so, I've been doing it a long time.  
     I know, it depends on the style and your tastes, but:
     1.  How much corn sugar / water would be considered over-priming? 
     2.  How much corn sugar / water would be considered under-priming?
     3.  3/4 cup, 5/4 cup, does it really matter that much (as long as it's 
     not flat or bulging the caps or sweeter than you can stand)?
<<<<<<<<<

Byron's latest edition of his book "Brewing Quality Beers" suggests approx. a
3/4 cup corn sugar to 5 gal. priming ratio.  If you are lagering your brew,
he says you may wish to increase your priming sugar to a full cup.

Ken then asks:
<<<<<<<
Question:  Do you measure Final Gravity before or after adding the 
     priming sugar?  I guess it depends on how you define "final."  Is 
     there a standard source of Final Gravity definition?
>>>>>>>>>

For the record (CD?),I have always measured FG before priming.

Pat Maloney, Rohnert Park, CA  (patrickm50 at aol.com)

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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 14:44:46 +0000 (GMT)
From: Delano Dugarm 36478 <ADUGARM at worldbank.org>
Subject: Adjunct FAQ

	I'm putting together an adjunct FAQ.  This would cover 
the use of unmalted fermentables in both extract and all-grain 
brewing.  While I'm digging out the net.wisdom from the HBD 
archives, I would also appreciate input from homebrewers who use 
adjuncts.
	I had never thought of using corn starch peanuts.  One 
problem would be that they have a very large volume, complicating 
mash-in.

Delano 'Adjunct Boy' DuGarm
adugarm at worldbank.org
Arlington, VA

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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 95 10:33:00 PST
From: "Zoller, J 2LT SUPT" <YJ6411 at cs.usma.army.mil>
Subject: Homebrew Stores in Fayetteville, NC?


 I will be moving to the Fayetteville, NC area at the start of the new year 
and need to find a new place to pick homebrew supplies.  Anybody know of any 
in the area?

Jeb Zoller
West Point, NY

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Date: Thu, 07 Dec 1995 09:42:45 -0600
From: MURPHYJ at ada.org
Subject:  Russian Beer Lovers Party.

Fellow Homebrewers (and assumed beer lovers):

Today's Chicago Tribune includes an article by James P.
Gallagher, the Tribune's Moscow bureau chief. In the article
he tells of a political party in Russia (one of 43 parties) trying
to gain a foothold in the Russian parliament. This is the Beer
Lovers Party and they blame vodka drinking among Russians
for their current depressed economic and social situation.
They claim that if more Russians were to drink beer instead
of vodka, many of these problems would go away. The idea
has begun to catch on throughout the country and chapters
have popped up in dozens of Russian cities. Vladdimir
Sanatin, head of the party's chapter in Saratov says, "Beer
lovers are more stable and trustworthy. They're more
sophisticated, more in touch with the modern world. Vodka
makes people mean and aggressive, while beer leaves you
feeling mellow." I think we should show our solidarity with
these brave Russians, and do all we can to promote this
enlightened viewpoint. 

Joe Murphy
Beer lover, though not Russian
murphyj at ada.org




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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 08:26:43 -0700 (MST)
From: Ian Smith <rela!isrs at netcom.com>
Subject: Fullers ESB

Dear collective,

Does anybody out there have a recipe for a Fullers ESB clone. I believe 
this is the best ESB I have ever tasted and has an extremely complex 
taste which I think includes treacle or brown sugar. I would appreciate 
any info you can provide.

Ian Smith
RELA Inc
isrs at rela.uucp.netcom.com
I make beer the old fashioned way - brew it !

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:02 EST
From: CSS2 at OAS.PSU.EDU (SPEAKER.CURTIS)
Subject: custom caps/belgian malt extract

Hi all:  A couple questions for the collective wisdom of the HBD...
Does anyone know of a company that will custom print beer caps for
homebrewers?  I have a coworker who's brother brews and is interested in
getting some caps made special for his brews.  A review of back issues of
ZYMURGY and BARLEYCORN failed to uncover anything like this.  Plenty of folks
will custom make labels, but I didn't see anyone who does caps.  Any info
would be appreciated...

Question #2: On page 72 of the latest issue of ZYMURGY, the Home Brewery Co.
is selling New! Belgian Abbey Malt Extract Syrup - $8.95 for 3.3#.
Has anyone gotten an early sample of this stuff and could comment on it's
quality?  It is supposed to be made from 100% DeWolf-Cosyns Belgian barley.
I'm very intrigued by this one.  Again, any info greatly appreciated.

And for any of you folks thinking about making the move to corny kegs - DO IT!
It is so nice to wash, santize, rinse and fill ONE vessel; but moreover, you
fill it one day, force carbonate, and can drink it the next day!!!  Yes, it
does improve with more time under CO2, but for most of us who have gotten used
to waiting 2 weeks for proper bottle conditioning, this is a true revolation!
I am on my second corny now (oatmeal stout), and I may never bottle again :-)

Hoppy Holidays
Curt
css2 at oas.psu.edu
Environmental Health and Safety - Penn State Univ.

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:12:49 -0500
From: "Frederick L. Pauly" <flp2m at galen.med.virginia.edu>
Subject: NaCl / Salt ?

Hello Fellow Brewers,

I'm going to do a 10 gal all grain Alt and I want to condition my
soft water with the recomended gypsum and table salt as per
Zymurgy winter 91 issue. BUT the author says no additives in the
salt so I have non-iodized salt that contains salt and potassium
silicate. Should I use it or find another salt ?

Thanks
Rick Pauly

Nuclear Medicine Tech
Charlottesville,VA

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 09:37:45 -0500 (EST)
From: Mitch Hogg <bu182 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Beer Filters & Wine Filters: Are they the same?

Now, I know how unnecessary most folks consider filtering beer to be, but 
I'd like to transport a few bottles over the Christmas season (share the 
wealth, y'know), and I'd like to avoid churning up bottle sediment in 
transit. So, I have a couple of questions...
First, can a wine filter be used for filtering beer? I have access to one 
at the winemaking shop where I work, and it seems like it would be easy 
enough to bring down the beer and run it through.
Second, if it is possible, at which stage should I filter it, and why? 
For example, will filtering leave enough yeast in the bottle for proper 
carbonation? (Wine, of course, is bottled to be "flat"). Should I filter 
before or after adding the priming DME/sugar? Et cetera, et cetera.
I hope someone out there can help me with this. TIA for your help.
Please respond here or through e-mail.

Mitch.

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 11:40:14 EST
From: tgaskell at e3sa.elab.syr.ge.com
Subject: Re: EasyMasher

Although this is my first post, I am a long time lurker.  I want to extend 
my thanks to y'all for all of the sage advice that I have extracted from 
the HBD.  My first all grain batch (a porter recipe that was published in 
the HBD, duh!) is in the secondary and is IMHO my best beer yet.  
I have tried to amass a library of reference manuals from Miller, Noonan, 
etc., to help me with my brewing, but I would venture to bet that posts 
from Al, Rob, Kinney, Phil, John, Kirk, AJ, Dion, George, Dave, Andy, 
etc., etc., etc., etc. have improved my beer more than all of the texts.  
Apologies to those folks I didn't mention, but they are numerous.  

Now on with my comments about modifying my EasyMasher:
My all grain set up makes use of 2 EasyMashers, one in my mash/lauter 
tun the other in my sparge water tank, this setup makes for a very 
balanced flow.  Like Paul in Al's post, I had air leaks around the 
tubing when attached to my EM.  Another problem I had was that as the 
vinyl tubing heated and became more flexible it slipped off the EM spigot.

To solve both of the shortcomings of my EM I used a small file to smooth 
out the casting marks on the end of the brass spigot that the tubing slips 
over.  Then I used a triangular jewelers file to make a very shallow 
groove all of the way around the spigot about 1/8 inch from the end.  This 
groove serves as a barb to hold the vinyl tubing in place.  As the tubing 
warms and becomes flexible, it fills in the groove holding itself in place.  
I also speculate that the groove, along with the smoothed casting marks, 
make an airtight seal between the brass and vinyl.  No more airleaks due 
to a venturi (or is it Bernoulli?).  8^)

I have used my EMs for many partial mashes and one full blown all grain 
batch, and after the above modifications are made, my EMs are a very 
trouble free and useful part of my brew equipment.

Tom Gaskell   Hog Heaven Homebrew Picobrewery   Clayville, NY

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 11:48:53 -0600
From: cerevis at mcs.net (Christopher P. Weirup)
Subject: Question about steam generators

I have been very interested in the recent thread about pressure cookers as
steam generators for mashing.  I definitely would like to pursue this
option for my Gott setup.

My question is this:  where can I go to get the proper hardware installed
on the pressure cooker?  I don't have the tools to thread or install values
and whatever in the cooker, let alone the knowledge.  Plus, I want to make
sure everything is fitted properly.  Too many things can go wrong with a
poor job of installing this hardware.

If anyone could help me out, I'd appreciate it.  TIA.

Chris Weirup
cerevis at mcs.net



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Date: 07 Dec 95 11:42:12 EST
From: "Gregg A. Howard" <102012.3350 at compuserve.com>
Subject: re: Koch, et al

I realize that as an FNG (new guy) I have absolutely no standing to make this
suggestion, but is there a subscriber who has the assets to start up a brewing
ethics list?  If there's not enough traffic, maybe that list could also address
the stopper/cork in carboy/wine bottle issue.  Just a thought.  :-)





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Date:          Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:36:28 EDT
From: "Herb B. Tuten" <HERB at zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us>
Subject:       Wheat/Bottling Trick

Greetings all. 

I've received no replies to my recent post about banana esters
in wheat beer and nuclear fermentation even with no Bavarian 
wheat yeast.  Have I stumped the collective? Same post - Has 
anyone rinsed fruit from the primary to reuse in secondary? 

My wife had a great idea last night while bottling - use a little
textured rubber disk, like the kind you get jars off with, as a
base.  Just set the bottle on it and cap, no slipping on the counter!

Cheers,
Herb                              herb at zeus.co.forsyth.nc.us

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 14:00:09 EST
From: scox at factset.com (Sean Cox)
Subject: Wild yeasts

Recently I made mention of using wild yeasts in my brewing, and I've been
asked to make a larger post about such heresy :-)

I got interested in trying "wild" mead after reading Gayre's book on mead
and thinking about how simply people were able to make the stuff, versus
how many "modern" folks make a big deal about it.  This was compounded by
cider season (you know the routine: fresh unpreserved cider, left in the back
of the friDge for a couple weeks, Mmmmm ci-der) which got me thinking about
really giving wild yeasts a shot.

So here are the steps that got me going:

1) Acquire "raw" honey. This was accomplished by mentioning my need to my
Mom, who got me a pound of unfiltered/unheated crystallized honey from a 
beekeeper near her house.
2) Remove bee bits from top of honey.  Do not mention bee bits to wife.
3) Scrape the honey from its jar into the fermenter.
4) Add water to fermenter to get it about half full. 
5) Screw cap onto fermenter (sounds dangerous, but read on!)
6) Shake a lot.  Shake some more.
7) Remove cap from fermenter.  Add water to about 3/4ths full.
8) Replace cap and shake a lot.
*Note: Steps 4-8 are to dissolve the honey (duh) but also to oxygenate the
*	must (this is mead, thus must) to get things going. My apartment
*	is only slightly larger that the Genie's Lamp, so I work with 1 gal
*	batches, thus a fermenter small enough to shake this way, use your
*	own preferred oxygenation method, or don't, they'll grow anyway. :)
9) Remove cap and attach airlock.
10) Kick back for a couple weeks, then drink.

Use the sediment from this batch (I racked it off the sediment before I began
drinking it) in the next batch(es) of your target brew and see what happens!

My experience so far has been really fast mead fermentations with lots of 
complex flavors.  I haven't bothered to bottle any of this, usually I just
pour from the fermenter into containers (growlers, cups, etc) and then go back
and top up the fermenting mead with some honey/water and give it some time to 
digest its new food.  

The pale ale I currently have fermenting has not had as active a fermentation
as I expected, but I figure I underpitched it as well, having no idea how much
of the sediment is really yeast (or of that, useful yeast) I should have
pitched a ton to be sure.  Oh well, next time.  So far, it's had a very sweet
aroma from the fermenter (now in secondary, I'll report again after I bottle
it this weekend).  

Finally, this is really a fun thing to do, but a word of caution.  If you are
the kind of person (you know who you are) who need to be sure of his FGs, or
pales at the thought of a "random" aroma or flavor in a brew this is not for
you.  But if you want to "get in touch with your innner brewer" I'd definately
suggest giving it a try.  Especially since you'll get some "free" mead for
your efforts :-)

	--Sean

Hmm, I wonder if Wyeast or Yeast Labs will come out with a "wild" liquid 
yeast now...   Hmm.. Wyeast 9999 (it's got everything!) 

=== Sean Cox, Systems Engineer ==================== FactSet Data Systems ===
=== scox at factset.com           ==================== Greenwich, CT        ===

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 11:39:38 PST
From: kkotwica at ATS.ORST.EDU (Kyle Kotwica)
Subject: temp. controls

Could someone tell me of a mail-oreder source for a Hunter AirStat?
And maybe some advice for converting a chest freezer to a fridge.
Are the more expensive controlers worth it?
Thanks 
Kyle Kotwica 
kotwica at ats.orst.edu

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Date:          Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:28:28 +0000
From: "Matt Williams" <MWILLIAMS at ahsr.org>
Subject:       Kegging

We're going to be moving into a house (hopefully) this Spring, which 
will allow me to expand my brewing.  My wife is going to "surprise" me 
with a kegging system for Christmas.  My question to the collective is:  
which is better, Coke or Pepsi soda kegs?  Apparantly there's a difference 
in the connection.  I'd appreciate input re: problems, ease of use, 
etc. --  basically anything that may help me in my kegging endeavors.
E-mails to me are fine.  If I get a lot of information, I'll summerize for 
all.  TIA  for expanding my horizons.
Matt Williams
mwilliams at ahsr.org
Association for Health Services Research

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Date: 07 Dec 95 10:13 PDT
From: ROTH.TER at SEATTLE.VA.GOV
Subject: SOME EQUIPMENT NOTES

 Paul S. in HBD 1899 asks about Easymash.  I bought the spigot/tube assembly, 
and drilled a hole in my 33 qt. enamel-on-steel kettle and installed the unit.
Not a complete success; the kettle is of such thin metal that drilling a 
perfectly round hole is difficult, and the supplied fiber washer barely 
provides a waterproof connection.  But it works---I have made about 10 batches 
of mostly Belgian abbey ales, and a couple batches of Porter.  Expect somewhat 
less than 30 points/lb/gallon.  I mash about 10-13 lbs of grain per batch, in 
order to get an OG around 55-65.  The best things about Easymash: Only takes 
about 1 pint--1 quart to run clear, and it's convenient for step mashing on a 
propane burner.  (I use the "Superb" 35,000BTU, very happy with it.  I think 
you'd have scorching problems with one of the high-output cookers, these 
kettles are very thin steel).  (Yeah, I use it outdoors, rain and all...)

   Mashing is really a no-brainer with this thing---run in 3 gallons of water, 
heat to 166, add 10-12 lbs of grist, turn off flame, leave it on the stove or 
cooker, and go read the Sunday paper or watch the Seahawks lose to Denver. 
At halftime, pump a little energy into the system, stir, and check temp--
usually get complete conversion in about 60-90 minutes. With this quantity of 
thermal mass, it loses heat very slowly, a bubble-wrap jacket is perfect 
insulation. I changed from mashing in a 6- gal plastic bucket with Phil's 
Phalse Bottom (wonder if Frederick's of Hollywood has asked to license 
the trademark?? ;-> ) and am happier with being able to pump heat into the 
mash on the stovetop than by adding hot water, etc. etc.  
 (But if you like the simplicity of single infusion , you can make some great 
beer with the Phalse Bottom (TM)/plastic bucket system.)
   
  Easymash is also a nice vessel for bottling, but as noted in 1899, the seam 
on the spigot will introduce air into the wortstream unless you use a little 
hose-clamp on your tubing/spigot connection. I use the 15-inch brass Phil's 
Philler, and like it a lot, but it is getting a little sticky and sometimes I 
have to pull the tube shut between bottles.  Yeah, I'm too cheap to go to a 
Sankey Keg system---or maybe I just like to lug a few bottles over to a 
friend's place :=)...

   I ran across an interesting product while rappelling  down the North Face 
of my hardware store's 'winterizing' dep't---it's a sort of aluminized bubble 
wrap.  You'll see it pictured in the ZYMURGY special issue on grains. It costs 
about $17 for a 24-inch wide roll, about 12 feet--enough to insulate your mash 
tun and sparge bucket, as well as your kettle.  R-value is approximately 16-20.
 Better insulation than my old sleeping bag, and cleaner.
 
  Phil's siphon starter is an interesting idea and will fill a racking cane 
with iodophor in about 8 shakes---really great for that. But it doesn't want 
to fill the whole racking cane-6 ft siphon hose assembly. Maybe I'm notshaking 
the thing hard enough--I dunno.  It leaks very slowly due to irregularities of 
the ball surface, but I am not having any contamination problems (yet).   
   
      Geez, I'm sure sick of the Koch thread, let's move on !!!
  
  Our local Redhook is making a very interesting seasonal brew---they call it 
Double Stout, it's their (I think) Blackhook Porter with some locally roasted 
Starbuck's coffee.  Wotta kick!!

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 95 14:18:16 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Belgian malt/SNPA yeast/30 p-lb-gal/carbonation/advancing questions

Craig writes:
>1) How does Belgian pale ale differ from American? I find lots of info on
>British vs. American, but not Belgian.  Can I use it as a base, or is the
>enzyme count too low?

The only American malt I use is Schreier Brewer's 2-row which I think is
a good-quality, very neutral-tasting malt.  DeWolf-Cosyns Belgian Pale Ale 
is slightly darker and also very neutral.  You cannot make a very good Pale
Ale from it if you use it alone.  You can, however, do this with British
malts which, to me, taste quite a bit more caramelly than the Belgian or
American malts.  Makes sense if you consider the Lovibond -- the Am. and
Belg. are paler which implies they have been kilned less/cooler.  You can
use DWC PA as a base malt -- it has plenty of enzymes for itself and a little
more.  I don't have my charts here, but my guess is that it is slightly
more enzymatic than English Pale Ale malts, but less than US.  It's all
a tradeoff -- the US growers use more fertilizers (I'm told) than the
Europeans and the higher protein levels show it.  Higher protein means 
higher enzymes (enzymes are proteins) in general.

>2) I "harvested" some yeast from the bottom of a Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
>bottle, just to see if it would work.  It smelled great in my starter.  I
>pitched it 3 weeks ago.  Standard vigorous primary fermentation (O Joy)! 
>After 4 days, (OG=1.052, Gravity at racking 1.022).  Now, three weeks later, I
>still get airlock bubbles every 10 seconds.  Fermentation temp (in basement)
>is about 62F.  Any ideas? Is this stuff weird or is this normal?  It continues
>to smell ok.

62F may be a little cold for this yeast (allegedly the same as Wyeast #1056).
I had a long, drawn-out fermentation with a high FG when I tried to ferment
at 57-59F.  As I've posted before, size of starter makes a difference because
the heat generated by the yeast warms the wort if you get a good, fast start.

>3)  I am using an Easymasher in a canning kettle.  Have tried both infusion
>mashing and stovetop mashing.  (Do you server your turkey with stovetop
>mashing?).  I have tried fine grind and coarse crush.  I keep getting about 24
>pts/lb/gallon.  I haven't checked the Ph, because everyone says "don't worry."
>Think that is the problem? Al K. says in Zymurgy I should be able to get 30. 

How many gallons of runnings to you take.  If you take 7 gallons and boil it
down to 5 you should get the 30+ points from the EasyMasher(tm).  Also, stale
grain can lose you 10% or more.  How do you store the grain?  How does your
supplier store the grain?

>4)  I am getting uneven carbonation in my bottles.  How do you ensure proper
>mixing of the boiled DME with the green beer.  I would have thought that
>siphoning on top of it in the bottling bucket would sufficiently mix it. 
>Apparently, I am missing the boat here somehow.

I leave the DME for making starters and extract batches.  I use corn sugar,
but uneven carbonation can be a problem in the mixing, but it can also
be a problem with your capper or if you boil your bottlecaps for sanitation.
The heat can mess up the linings and completely ruin the absorbing capabilities
of oxygen-absorber caps.

***
Bob writes:
>Is there an easier way to get started in all grain brewing than 
>building a steam injection system?

Yes, infusion mashing.

>Is there a good source for malted grain? 

Homebrewing supply store or mailorder -- see the back of brewing magazines
for a million suppliers.

>Can I build a wort cooler out of a copper coil submerged in the wort 
>with cold tap water running through it?

Yes, that's called an immersion chiller.

I think that you should get yourself a good basic text on homebrewing --
Papazian's New Complete Joy of Homebrewing or Miller's Homebrewer's Guide
or Brewing the World's Great Beers should give you the information you need
to move from extract to all-grain.  Your question are valid but are more
easily answered in books and than via the HBD.  Think of HBD as a place to
answer questions and discuss ideas that are not covered in books (yet ;^).

Al.

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 13:17:36 -0800 (PST)
From: Jim Cave <CAVE at PSC.ORG>
Subject: Overpitching?

	Andy Walsh indicated in the last Digest that he a problem with
one of his ferments.  He alleges overpitching as a cause.  I'm not convinced
this was the problem, as he indicates a high fermentation temperature. This
he believes was due to the temperatures generated by the metabolism of the 
yeast.  Off Flavours and aromas (banana esters) were indicated.

	First, what was the initial temperature of the wort?  Was it 60F or
was it 70 F.?  Was the fridge operating properly?  I'd have a good look 
at the fridge.  I supect temperature being the problem rather than pitching 
rates.  The high gravity is a possible cause, but 1.068 is not a high gravity
beer and the yeast should not have trouble fermenting this gravity rapidly. 
Has anyone out there tried measuring fermentation temperature changes that are
completely attributable to fermentation, (i.e. delta ambient-fermentation 
differences)?  I recall Noonan (in his lager book) saying that banana ester
formation was due to some factor in wort composition, but it's been some time
since I read this book.

	I routinely pitch massive quantities of yeast (yes, I use the entire
primary's yeast too) and never have had a serious ester problem as a result.
The last time I did this was with an IPA of starting gravity 1.061, and an 
ambient temperature of 66-68 F.  The yeast used was NCYC 1332. The result
was successful (he said humbly).  Ester levels were appropriately English. 

				Jim Cave 

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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 16:42:41 -0500
From: danmcc at umich.edu (Dan McConnell)
Subject: re: yes you can overpitch


> From: awalsh at crl.com.au (Andy Walsh)
> Subject: yes you can overpitch

>I pitched onto the primary yeast cake
> from a previous fermentation (Yeast Labs Belgian Ale: Brigand) then racked
> into a clean 70 litre plastic cylindrical fermenter, to remove trub etc.,
> and aerated thoroughly with pure O2 from a cylinder and SS airstone. I then
> placed the fermenter in my fridge and set the thermostat at 15C (60F).

So far so good......

>Well,
> 12 hours later (next day), the yeast was climbing out of the fermenter
> through the airlock (that's a 2 foot climb in a *cylindrical* vessel!) and
> was all over the fridge. The temperature underneath the fermenter (where I
> had the sensor for the feedback control) was 28C!  The fridge was going flat
> out to try and maintain 15C but just could not cope with this thermonuclear
> explosion I had created.

OOPS!

> Well, I cleaned up, and next day (within 36 hours
> of pitching) all signs of fermentation had ceased. I tasted the beer, and it
> was certainly attenuated, but can you shout, BANANA!!! (sorry).
> I think I might just have gone a bit overboard with the yeast here. I think
> a thimbleful might be more appropriate.
> Has anyone else used this yeast for Belgian ales? I know the wyeast one
> makes great banana beer (I refuse to use it for that reason), but what about
> YeastLabs?

Well, I have used the Yeast Lab Belgian on a *few* occasions........ At a
60F air temp. the wort temp. could easily rise out of control.  Which looks
to me like a more accurate discription of what happened here.  You measured
28C (>82F)!  At 28C I'll bet you got a bunch of bananas.  Your presented
data: 1) high gravity 2) 28C, 3) 36 hour thermonuclear fermentation and 4)
BANANA!!! all point to a high temperature fermentation with this strain,
not overpitching.  Of course, since you did pitch a good yeast dose, the
fermentation went out of control more easily.

It sounds like you need a more efficient cooling system with your present
fermenter.  You might try an open ferment with submerged copper cooling
(modified wort chiller) coils.  A small amount of cold water flowing will
help to slow down the temperature rise, keep the yeast from climbing out of
the fermenter and cut the bananas.

DanMcC



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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 23:41:14 +0100
From: bush at shbf.se (Robert Bush)
Subject: Re: decoction Vs infusion mashing


In #1903 Douhan <gdouhan at wsunix.wsu.edu> wrote:

>        I have noticed that a lot of you use decoction mashing, even
>those who utilize cooler type systems. I don't decoction mash even though
>I have a sytem that would alow me too. I just don't see a reason why to
>bother. The barely malts that are available today are highly modified.
>Sellective breeding has given rise to high quality malts. My questions are:
>How many breweries out there use decoction mashing(those which do not use
>adjuncts)? Have any of you ran side by side comparisons and noticed
>differences?

I don't know about the breweries but the reason I use decoction mashing
sometimes (when brewing lagers) is that it gives a completely different
character to the beer. I don't worry to much about the malt I get here in
Sweden being under-modified.
Another aspect is the fact that it's an easy way of raising the temperture
of the mash. I used to do step-infusions before but found it to hard
hitting the right temperature without having to add too much boiling water
and thereby diluting the mash too much. I sometimes even had to add cold
water to lower it, which was a bit of a nuisance and a waste of energy. But
then again, this could of course happen when you decoction-mash...

Robert

====================================
=  Robert Bush, Eskilstuna, SWEDEN =
=  E-mail:  bush at shbf.se           =
====================================



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Date: Thu, 7 Dec 1995 18:20:47 -0500
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: Kwass



Douglas Thomas gave us the ingredients for a Kwass recipe.  It
sounds like interesting stuff, but totally unlike the beer-like
beverage that has been served to me by Russian friends.  Their
kwass was made from dark rye bread, not mare's milk.  It was so
much like beer that I think it must properly be considered a
type of beer.  Does anyone know anything this type of kwass?

Rolland Everitt
af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov

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End of HOMEBREW Digest #1905, 12/09/95