FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  A beer song to lighten everyone's mood. (Alejandro Midence)
  Re: CO2 Solubility, Saturation (Gary McCarthy)
  Bandwidth? (Russell Mast)
  Simulated Singha (Methvin Dave)
  WaterCan's Wine into Water Wine (andbeverage) tasting, dinner and auction (Patrick Martin)
  RE: Very Foamy Brown Ale from a keg (Brian Pickerill)
  mocha beer ("Bryan L. Gros")
  SABCO Racking/Wyeast 1214 (TMartyn)
  kwass (eric urquhart)
  REQ: Recipe for Pete's Wicked Winter Lager (kgmiller)
  Why does clear beer cloud in fridge? (Bob Tortajada x9373)
  Heater/Fridge Temp Controller Plans (Douglas Kerfoot)
  Gear Motors (Jack Schmidling)
  Dry hopping (Mike Kidulich)
  What temperature does beer freeze at?/HBD police (Carl Etnier)
  Oak/Steam Boiler (Merino Lithographics)
  Cornelius Fermenters (Ken Frampton)
  carbonation / legal sankey kegs? ("Keith Royster")
  Chilling my Wort (patricia hust)
  Re:Split Boil/Re:Caps/Ancient Egyptian Beer (Michael Genito)
  Re: Blue Moon - Belgian White ("Mark J. Wilk")
  Hops toxicity in dogs ("Michael R. Swan")
  Hops and dogs (Jim Busch)
  Re: "diacetyl rest" - Noonan vs. Miller (Jim Dipalma)
  Cold Lagering (w.r.) crick" <crick at bnr.ca>
  RE: Hops Toxicity ("Richard Scotty")



******************************************************************
* POLICY NOTE: Due to the incredible volume of bouncing mail,
* I am going to have to start removing addresses from the list
* that cause ongoing problems. In particular, if your mailbox
* is full or your account over quota, and this results in bounced
* mail, your address will be removed from the list after a few days.
* 
* If you use a 'vacation' program, please be sure that it only
* sends a automated reply to homebrew-request *once*. If I get
* more than one, then I'll delete your address from the list.
******************************************************************
 
#################################################################
#
# YET ANOTHER NEW FEDERAL REGULATION: if you are UNSUBSCRIBING from the
# digest, please make sure you send your request to the same service
# provider that you sent your subscription request!!! I am now receiving
# many unsubscribe requests that do not match any address on my mailing
# list, and effective immediately I will be silently deleting such
# requests.
#
#################################################################
NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESS hpfcmgw!

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-request@ hpfcmgw.fc.hp.com, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via the BITNET listserver (BEER-L at UA1VM.UA.EDU),
  then you MUST unsubscribe the same way! 
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.
Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org
ARCHIVES:
  An archive of previous issues of this digest, as well as other beer
  related information can be accessed via anonymous ftp at
  ftp.stanford.edu.  Use ftp to log in as anonymous and give your full
  e-mail address as the password, look under the directory
  /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer directory.  AFS users can find it under
  /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer.  If you do not have
  ftp capability you may access the files via e-mail using the ftpmail
  service at gatekeeper.dec.com.  For information about this service,
  send an e-mail message to ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com with the word
  "help" (without the quotes) in the body of the message.


----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 12:47:02 -0600
From: Alejandro Midence <alex at conline.com>
Subject: A beer song to lighten everyone's mood.

Hi, folks,

I thought I'd post this to put a smile on y'all's faces or even a laugh.  
Here it is:

A Pub With No Beer

Well, it's long time away from your kendrid and all,
With a campfire at night where the wild eagles call.
But theres nothing so lonesome, so dull, or so drear
As to stand in the bar of a pub with no beer.
Now, the public gets anxious for the quota to come
There's a faraway look on the face of the bum.
The maid's gotall cranky and the cook's actin' queer,
What a terrible place is a pub with no beer. 
A stockman rides up with his dry dusty throat,
He presses up to the bar; pulls a wad from his coat.
But the smile on his face quickly turns to a sneer
When the barman says suddenly: "We're plumb out of beer."
There's a dog on the veranda for his master he waits
But the boss is inside drinking WINE with his mates.
He hurries for cover and he cringes in fear,
It's no place for a dog at a pub with no beer.
Old Biddy the blacsmith for the first time in his life
Has gone home cold sober to his darlin' wife.
He walks in the kitchen she says: "You're early me dear."
Then he breaks down and he tells her that the pub's got no beer.
Oh, it's long time away from your kendrid and all,
With a campfire at night where the wild eagles call.
But there's nothin' so lonesome, so dull, or so drear,
As to stand in the bar of a pub with no beer.

It's Long After Ten

At the pub on the crossroads there's whisky and beer,
There's a brandy from Cognac that's fragrant but dear.
But for killin' the first and for raisin' the gout,
There's nothin' at all beats a pint of good stout

Drink it up, man, it's long after ten.

At the pub on the crossroads I first went astray,
Where I drank and I'll drink for to fill Gallway BAy.
Goin up in the marnin' I wore out me shoes
goin' up to the cross for the best o' good booze

Drink it up, man, it's long after ten.

Some folk o'er the water think bitter is fine.
And otheres, they swear by the juice of the vine.
But there's nothin' that's squeezed from the grape or the hop
Like the black liquidation with the froth on the top

Drink it up, man, it's long after ten.
It's Guinness it's Porter that has me this way,
For, 'tis sweeter than buttermilk and stronger than tay,   (tea)
But when in the marnin' I feel kinda rough,
Me curse on Lord Ivy who brews the damn stuff

Drink it up, man, it's long after ten.

I've traveled in England, I've traveled in France.
At the sound a' good music I'll sing or I'll dance.
So, hear me then, Mister and pour me one more,
If I canna drink it up then throw me out the door

Drink it up, man, it's long after ten,
Drink it up, man, it's long after ten! 


I hope you guys enjoyed it.  As you can see, this second song is where I 
got my sig from.  
A health to ya

Alex


<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>
Some folk o'er the water think bitter is fine,
And otheres, they swear by the juice of the vine.
But there's nothin' that's squeezed from the grape or the hop
Like the black liquidation with the froth on the top!!!
<><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><><>


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 12:25:03 -0700
From: gmccarthy at dayna.com (Gary McCarthy)
Subject: Re: CO2 Solubility, Saturation

Tom Williams writes:

>Is there a difference between "saturated with CO2" and "carbonated"? 

I am only speculating: It has been postulated in the HBD of late that all the
fermentable sugars are eaten up in about 2 days.  If that is true, and then:

1) the beer has to be carbonated, which none of my beers are carbonated after
two days, or 

2) the beer is not carbonated, ie the CO2 has not "super-saturated" the
solution. Thus the CO2 is just hanging around in solution looking to escape to
the headspace, into a lower pressure area.  After the headspace fills to >1
atmospheres, the CO2 looks for a lower pressure area, ie the beer this time. 
The pressure in the headspace forces some CO2 to dissolve into the beer, and
over a period of 2 - 4 weeks, the beer becomes carbonated because of the
super-saturated solution of beer and CO2.

You know, everyone, I don't really care about this issue.  All I know (for
sure) is that I put some wort (gyle, right?) into my uncarbonated beer, bottle
it, and 4 weeks later the beer is carbonated!!!  Sure we want to know the
correct mechanisms and order to the science of beerology, but I, for one, feel
that we've wasted a lot of bandwidth on this subject.  Not that I have not
contributed to the wasted bandwidth, but I tire of the subject.  So I, for
another, hope that we have exhausted ourselves, feel we understand the issues,
maybe not agree with all the conclusions, but these things are what I have
gleaned from the debate.  But I say it has been a good topic, but I do grow
weary of it.  But feel free to carry on without me.  Same goes for the Sam
Adams thread!!

Hey, come on over to my house and have a homebrew!!!  

Remember frig is an activity!!


Gary McCarthy in SLC           By the way, which one's Pink?
gmccarthy at dayna.com       Pink Floyd - Have a Cigar - Wish you were Here.

 
                             


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:07:19 -0600
From: Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com>
Subject: Bandwidth?

I am so sick of reading all these posts complaining about people wasting 
bandwidth.  If you really have a problem with it, why not e-mail the people
involved instead of wasting bandwidth complaining about how others are wasting
bandwidth?  Don't you realize that you're only wasting more bandwidth doing it?
Don't you think it's a waste of bandwidth to waste bandwidth complaining about
how people are wasting bandwidth to complain about ... hey, wait a second ...

What I meant to say is that the CO2 "in solution" actually teleports to another
dimension (call it the Xerox(tm) dimension) early on in bottle conditioning.

 -R

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 15:20:08 -0500
From: dmethvin at cmp.com (Methvin Dave)
Subject: Simulated Singha


In my continuing quest to have my brewing hobby approved by the wife, I'm   
trying to reproduce her favorite beer.  It's a brand called Singha, made   
in Thailand by the Boon Rawd Brewery. I haven't seen it in any of the   
recipes around the internet. There are some subtle flavors I can't   
identify, and I'm wondering if anyone has tasted this brand and knows   
what they might have used. Perhaps they are using some of the local   
common food ingredients, such as coconut or Jasmati rice?  


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:03:25 GMT
From: aq995 at freenet.carleton.ca (Patrick Martin)
Subject: WaterCan's Wine into Water Wine (andbeverage) tasting, dinner and auction

WaterCan, a non-profit organization devoted to supporting small-scale
water projects in the developing world is holding its second annual
Wine into Water wine and beverage tasting, dinner and wine and beverage
auction on February 16, 1996 at 6:30 p.m. at the Canadian Museum of Nature.
Tickets are $50 and you will receive a tax receipt for approximately half
of this.  For more information or to order tickets call 613-230-5182.

- --
WaterCan / EauVive
323, rue Chapel Street
Ottawa, Ontario, Canada  K1N 7Z2
Tel: 613-230-5182  Fax: 237-5969

Return to table of contents


Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by BSUVC.bsu.edu
From: 00bkpickeril at bsuvc.bsu.edu (Brian Pickerill)
Subject: RE: Very Foamy Brown Ale from a keg

Laura "long signature" Conrad, lconrad at apollo.hp.com said:

>The solution is to relieve the pressure in the keg.  You should have
>>bought kegs with a valve for doing this. (mine is a little ring in the
>>center of the cap, which I pull to allow the pressure to escape.)

Or just press the center of the gas-in poppet which does the exact same
thing, just a little less convenient and from a point a bit lower in the
keg (a bit more of a foam problem.)  No big deal, IMHO, kegs w/out these
things are not a problem.

>There is also a lot of folklore about length of line from keg to tap,
>magic black line, and maybe some other things.  I haven't ever
>>experimented with these, but I know I have gotten foamy beer from other
>>people's kegs with various lengths and colors of line.

OK, I never heard anything about the color of the lines, that certainly
would be foklore.  OTOH, line length is very important.  It's been
discussed here to death already, but basically the longer the serving line,
the higher serving pressure you will need.

There is a big difference between the carbonation in the beer and the
serving pressure.  Too much serving pressure will cause problems for
properly carbonated beer.  I'd suggest letting out most of the pressure and
trying again.  If your beer is still much to foamy, you should let out all
the pressure, then shake the keg which will create some pressure as the co2
comes out of solution.  Keep doing this until the pressure and carb level
is right.  You may have to let the foam settle between cycles.  Good luck.


- --Brian Pickerill, Muncie, IN



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 13:15:38 PST
From: "Bryan L. Gros" <bgros at mindseye.Berkeley.EDU>
Subject: mocha beer

A long while back I asked for opinions on using coffee and chocolate 
in beer.  Here's a summary of the reply.

First, though, is not to forget about the significant bitterness
added by both cocoa and coffee.  Be sure to use a beer with a
fair amount of maltiness to balance this added bitterness as
well as the hop bitterness.  People are not generally used to 
a chocolate flavor without an accompanying sweetness.

CHOCOLATE
I have added 1/4 cup cocoa powder to the primary of a porter.
The beer had a chocolate aroma, but little flavor other than
bitterness.  

Nate Mead used chocolate in a beer, presumably baking chocolate.
He said it (probably the butter fat) left a white film around the
carboy and the bottles.  The beer was very chocoaty though.

Mark Mierzejewski used 6 oz. cocoa powder at racking time
(secondary?) and 2 4cup pots of espresso at bottling time in
a mocha java beer.  He said it was great, but he didn't count
on the added bitterness.

Chris Vyhnal used baking chocolate and said the oils ruined
the head.  The chocolate had no effect on taste, though

Guy Mason said thumbs up on Charlie Papazian's Goat
Scrotum Ale, which uses baking chocolate.

John DeCarlo used cocoa powder once and had it clump.  He
also used baking chocolate and it "sized" on him.

COFFEE
John DeCarlo used 1/4 pound of unground french roast
in the secondary for a week.  He said this was way too
much:  he got carbonated coffee with a hint of beer taste.

Dave Draper added 2 tbsp of grounds to the last 5 or
10 minutes of the boil.  In a second beer, he added a
large mug of brewed coffee to the primary at pitching time.
Both ways worked well for him, giving a subtle coffee flavor.
He used Wyeast 1084 for both beers. (low attenuation)

Mike Cinibulk commented that boiling coffee (which you
would do if you add grounds or coffee to the boil) is never
advisable.   Add brewed coffee to the secondary or bottling
bucket.  Another responder echos this sentiment and 
commented that he or she heard that Red Hook was going 
to make a coffee beer this way.

Jeff VanDeusen wrote that he tried the Mocha Java Stout
from the Cat's Meow II and it was "heavenly".  He says a
significant amount of aging is needed, up to 10 months.

*****
There you have it.  Feel free to upload this as a FAQ if anyone
thinks it is worthwhile. 

                                                - Bryan
                                                  bgros at mindseye.berkeley.edu


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 16:51:59 -0500
From: TMartyn at aol.com
Subject: SABCO Racking/Wyeast 1214

Happy Holidays All!

Following up on my post of the responses to my question about racking from a
SABCO 1/2 barrel boiler, I did brew this weekend, using a fine nylon mesh bag
for the pellet hops, and whirlpooling and letting settle for 10 minutes for
the whole hops.  With a scrubbie on the end of the pickup tube, the wort ran
off BEAUTIFULLY.  I still plan to extend the pickup tube and turn it toward
the side of the keg, just in case.  Thanks again to all who responded.

Next question.  I'm looking for feedback on the behavior of Wyeast 1214
Belgian Abbey yeast.  Please don't bother telling me I should have used
something else - it's already pitched.  How low can I go for temperature.  I
want to hold below 65 degrees to minimize the banana notes - at what temp.
will she go to sleep?  Also, the kraeusen on my 1 qt starter looked *funny* -
not thick, but rather thin and gassy looking - is this normal?  

Any replies by email greatly appreciated.

Tom Martyn
TMartyn at aol.com
Brattleboro, VT


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 13:53:59 -0800 (PST)
From: eurquhar at sfu.ca (eric urquhart)
Subject: kwass

I found this recipe on my hardrive from an old HBD.

Subject: Kvass/Kwass
From: duncan at vt.edu
Date: Mon, 10 Jan 94 10:35:28 -0500

Sounds like an interesting experiment - was the product drinkable at all?

For the sake of comparison, here's a recipe for "Kwass" taken from "The
Compleat Anachronist Guide to Brewing" (Compleat Anachronist #6),
published by the Society for Creative Anachronism:
 ---------begin quote-----------
Kwass
(Yield: 6 cups)
1 lb. day-old black bread or Danish pumpernickel
1 cup sugar
2 tbsp. dry yeast
1/4 cup lukewarm water
2 tbsp. mint leaves or 1 tbsp. dry mint
2 tbsp. raisins

Dry the bread and then chop it into coarse pieces. The add the bread to six
quarts of boiling water, remove from heat and cover with a towel. Set aside
for eight hours. Then strain the mixture through a fine sieve into another
large pot, extracting as much liquid from the bread as possible. Discard the
bread. Add the yeast and 1/4 tsp. sugar to the lukewarm (110-115 F [43-46 C])
water and stir thoroughly. Set this aside for about ten minutes in a warm
place and then add the yeast mixture, the remaining sugar, and the mint [to
the 6 quarts of bread-water], cover again with a towel, and set aside for
about another 8 hours. Strain the mixture again and bottle in a gallon jug
or several quart-size bottles. Fill the bottles 2/3 full, then divide the
raisins evenly among the bottles. Cover each bottle with plastic wrap
secured with a rubber band. Place in a cool spot for three to five days, or
until the raisins rise to the top and the sediment sinks to the bottom.
Carefully decant the clear amber liquid [picking out the raisins?] and
rebottle in clean bottles. Refrigerate until ready to drink.
 ----------end quote--------------
Sounds interesting, although I've never tried it. "Dry yeast"? I suppose
bread yeast (yech!) would suffice, but I'd use ale yeast in my own typical
overkill manner. Evidently, this version is not meant to be served
carbonated, but in a second recipe the author directs you to bottle the
mixture as soon as you see gas bubbles rising from the fermentation (of
course, he also complains of the bottles building up so much pressure that
the corks were extruded throught the wire cage - can you say "kwass
grenades"? I knew you could). Further recipes on the making of Kumiss
(fermented milk) <shudder> and Kefir (fermented buttermilk - which I have
tried to make and do not recommend for the weak of stomach). Basic beer,
mead and winemaking information is also included.

The CA Guide to Brewing, Compleat Anachronist series #6 is available
for $3.00 from:
Society for Creative Anachronism
Stock Clerk
P.O. Box 360743
Milpitas, CA  95035-0743  USA

Regards, and happy brewing!
Tom Brady
(known occasionally as Lord Duncan MacKinnon of Tobermory)
duncan at vt.edu


Eric Urquhart, Centre for Pest Management,
Department of Biological Sciences, Simon Fraser University,
Burnaby B.C. CANADA V5A 1S6
e-mail: eurquhar at sfu.ca



Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 16:35:45 EST
From: kgmiller at wsicorp.com
Subject: REQ: Recipe for Pete's Wicked Winter Lager

     Hey Guys,
     
     Does anyone have an all grain recipe for a clone of Pete's Winter 
     Lager?  Please send responses to kgmiller at wsicorp.com.  
     
     Thanks,
     
     Ken Miller


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 14:21:02 -0500 (EST)
From: Bob Tortajada x9373 <bobt at bear.com>
Subject: Why does clear beer cloud in fridge?

Ok, I bottle my beer, let it age a week and a half and then fridge one 
bottle to sample. Before I chill, the bear is not cloudy at all. After it 
cools down, whamo, cloudy beer. Is there anything I can do about this???


Perplexed,
Bob T.


- --
*******************************************************************************
Bear Stearns is not responsible for any recommendation, solicitation, offer or
agreement or any information about any transaction, customer account or account
activity contained in this communication.
*******************************************************************************

Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 1995 21:30:56 -0500
From: dkerfoot at freenet.macatawa.org (Douglas Kerfoot)
Subject: Heater/Fridge Temp Controller Plans

I've recently designed and built a temperature controller that can control
either a refrigerator OR a heat source.  It uses the Radio Shack Thermometer
Module (part # 277-123) that some folks have inquired about in the past.
Its range is -40 to +120 F so it won't work for a rims system.  What it will
do is allow you to keep your beer at the desired fermentation/serving temp
regardless of the ambient temp.  Right now it is keeping my beer from
freezing in my garage refrigerator. (I'm in Michigan, the fridg is unplugged
while a light bulb provides the heat)

You can build it with Radio Shack parts for between $30 and $55, depending
on if you have any basic components laying around. It's not as cheap as we
homebrewers would like, but Brewer's Resource sells a functional equivelent
for $90.  It will probably be 2-3 weeks before I can get the whole thing
organized.

If alot of people are interested, I will archive the plans.  If not, I will
save the effort and have a beer instead.  Please respond by private e-mail
to save bandwidth.  I'd hate to have anyone miss Russell Mast's daily
"profit is evil" posting.  By the way Russell, do you read and post@ work
to help save your employer from the evils of success?

Doug Kerfoot 

(I like beer)


Return to table of contents


Date: Mon, 18 Dec 95 22:30 CST
From: arf at mcs.com (Jack Schmidling)
Subject: Gear Motors


Sorry for the delay in responding to this but it got lost in diskspace while
I was having problems sending files.   The info is timeless even though it 
may not help the poster.....

>Date: Wed, 15 Nov 1995 19:07:05 -0500

>Dave Ebert wrote:
<<Secondly, if Santa gets me s JS mill I'll want to motorize it.>>
Rather than trying belts & pulleys, it might be simpler for you to find an
appropriately sized "gear motor" (motor w/integral reduction gears)...

I hate to argue with a happy customer but my experience is that sooner or
 later, I will hear from him with some weird problem.

Hundreds (if not thousands) of MM's have been motorized and the only ones I 
have ever had any complaints from are people who have used gear motors.

They have had drive shafts fall off, gears stripped and all sorts of things 
that just can't happen if you use a  large pulley on the mill and a small
pulley on the motor.  Belts and pulleys are forgiving but gears, chains,
sprockets and direct couplings are not.

The problem with gear motors is that the power must be transferred to the 
mill on a one to one basis with no opportunity to take advantage of the
 leverage obtained with pulley ratios.  As a consequence, so much tension 
is required to drive the mill that stresses are developed that eventually 
snap off the shaft.  Even if that does not happen, foreign objects getting
into the mill can cause catastrophic damage whereas a belt will simply slip.

I have been tempted to re-write the guarantee to exclude gear motors but
would ratherjust caution against using them.

js
 





Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 00:24:24 -0500
From: Mike Kidulich <mjkid at ix.netcom.com>
Subject: Dry hopping

- -- [ From: Mike Kidulich * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] --

Greetings to all!

I started subscribing about three weeks ago, and find the HBD very
informative. Thanks to all for a job well done. I recently did my first
batch of homebrew. It is an Irish Brown Ale, prepared from Mountmellicks
hopped malt  extract (4 lbs), 2 lbs Muntons Plain Light DME, and Wyeast 1084
Irish yeast. After I somewhat belatedly read the instructions, I noticed it
said to add hops for aroma. Being too late to add them at the end of the
boil (the beer is now fermenting), is dry hopping a viable alternative? I
was planning to rack to a glass secondary anyway, so this is not a problem.
Is there any risk from a bacteria standpoint? What kind of hops should I add
if I use this method, and how much? I do like a hoppy brew. Am I going too
far for a first effort?

TIA,

Mike Kidulich

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 12:29:19 +0100 (MET)
From: Carl Etnier <Carl.Etnier at abc.se>
Subject: What temperature does beer freeze at?/HBD police

I am going to move very soon and take with me a number of cases of
homebrew that I haven't had time to drink up. Now I have discovered
that the rental moving van I thought I had reserved is really a
flatbed truck. And it turns out that it is very difficult here to
find a van with a heated freight area to rent. 

So I'm wondering if I should think of another solution, like a car
pulling a trailer, with the beer in the car, or if I can get away
with a flatbed or a panel truck as long as the temperature is no more
than minus 2-3 C. If the lowest alcohol beer I have is around 5%,
what temperature does that freeze at? If it begins to freeze, will
that adversely affect the taste even if the freezing doesn't go so
far as to burst the bottles (ice beer at home)?

Other relevant information--
Beer's temperature in the house: circa 14 C

Lowest alcohol beer type: pale ale

Length of time in the unheated truck: up to 10 hours

Smallest bottle size: 33 cl (11 oz)

The rule of thumb I got from Sweden's government-run alcohol importer
is to divide % alcohol by 2 to get the number of degrees below zero
beer will freeze at. This is probably % abw--Sweden seems to be
unique in using abw--but I forgot to ask. I'm sure there is a great
deal of variation, depending on how much body the beer has and other
factors.

If you post, please Cc: to me privately, also. I'm leaving cyberspace
until the day before the move and won't have time to go through all
the back issues of HBD before the move. Thanks!
- --------------------

There have been posts lately that contribute nothing but
complaints that others write things that don't belong on HBD. One
person in #1912 threatened to quit reading HBD. 

Go ahead, quit. We'll all just have to suffer the financial loss of
your subscription revenue. ;-)

Seriously, if there is a thread here that is particularly long and
related to beer or brewing in some way, that is a sign that HBD is
working. You don't have to be interested in everything here. Nobody
is. Get a computer with a pagedown key. If there is only one person
who seems to digress, I have found that polite private email is a
kind and gentle way to show the person the error of his (it's always
a guy) ways.

Carl Etnier
A transplanted Yank in Trosa, Sweden
Sunrise today: 8:38 am. 
Sunset today: I can't see the horizon there, but it is about 3 pm

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 21:41:01 +1000
From: merino at cynergy.com.au (Merino Lithographics)
Subject: Oak/Steam Boiler

Steve Alexander posted,
>I have to disagree with the statement that european white oak imparts
>no flavor. French white oak barrels are widely used to hold wine, and
>a premium price, on the order of $500 per barrel is paid for these
>specifically because of the vanilla flavors and tannins they add.

Having been flamed for suggesting oak flavour in IPA's I find that
interesting? The IPA barrels sent to India were not lined with pitch like
some domestic barrels. Anyone who has sailed long distances with a barrel
will remember why. The motion polishes the inside of the barrel smooth and
pitch would be rubbed off. The official tasters on the docks in India would
be the only ones who could really tell us what a barrel of beer at sea for
months would have tasted like. When I go a'sailin' again, I'll take a barrel
and post the results to the HBD by seaphone.

Karl Weisal posted,
>We are in the process of buying a new house with a steam heat
>system in it, a 200 K Btu/hr system with all the protective
>stuff, water feed, pressure blow off, and vented combustion
>path. This baby has all the stuff on it I'd need to convert to
>steam feed mash and boil kettles. Has anyone out there ever
>tapped into a steam heat system for their brewery?
>Out of the boiler is a verticle 2' , 4" dia pipe that I could
>install a T onto with 2 flow control valves, one for the house
>and another for the brewery.
The 2" is probably the condensate return line.

> then I'd need a flow control valve
>on the gas line to be able to back off on the heat for a steady
>boil.
Don't control the gas here, just the steam flow.

> Controls would be manual for gas flow, and steam to the
>house / kettles. Other than the cost of the piping and valves does
>anyone see any problems with this? 

If you are going to inject steam from a conventional boiler you have a few
*minor* problems.

        1/"water hammer"-low spots where condensation can collect should be
avoided.
        2/"wet steam"- all boilers without superheaters produce about 98%
steam         and 2% water droplets. To vigorously boil 20 litres for 90
minutes you are going to use about 3kgs of steam. That is about 60 grams (
0.06 litres ) of boiler feedwater. 
        3/ Feedwater-if your feedwater is untreated, it contains O2, all of
which will end up in your hot wort. If it is untreated, the bicarbonate
hardness precipitates as carbonate and concentrates by evaporation until
about 3500 ppm when it causes violent foaming and "carry over" into the
steam line. This can be compared to the stable foam on beer. The foam  may
contain oils from the feed water "dosing" pump as well as concentrated minerals.
        4/ If your feedwater is "externally" treated, it is softened to
remove         many mineral ions. This is the best situation. However it is
often also "internally" treated, it may contain antifoaming chemicals,
sludge treatment to prevent sludge becoming scale, and oxygen scavenging
chemicals. It should also have a "blow down" device to remove some
concetrated water as fresh water is added. This still leaves high
concentrations of alkaline  hardness and chemical additives.
        5/Explosions- if you accidentally cause a sudden drop in pressure in
your boiler with your plumbing, all the residual water and steam becomes
"superheated" (contains much more heat than steam at that new pressure) and
immediatly vaporises *much* more steam. 1 kg of water = 1 litre, 1  kg of
steam = 1670 litres! You had better be able stop the pressure drop quickly
or superficial injuries won't be a problem!
        6/ Legality- you don't want to know how heavy the inspectors are!
And you will be inspected.

If your feedwater is *externally* treated only, you can do this. 
Contact a steam engineering business to buy a "parabolic plug" valve. These
prevent rapid changes in pressure when flow controlling it.
Set you automatic blow down to maximum.
Run a carbon steel steam line back through your furnace to superheat your
steam and thus dry it. The line could melt when not in use. The superheater
should be *after* the flow control valve. Superheaters need unlimited room
for steam expansion. This will help the boil as well, unsuperheated steam at
1 bar is 100C, no temperature differential to vigorously boil, just simmer.
Though, when you lower the steam pressure you also automatically superheat
it, it may be enough to compensate for line losses.
Weld a section of larger pipe in your line with the thinner lines crossing
over inside. This is a condensate and scale trap. It needs a little tap to
drain it.
Avoid low spots that may trap scale or condensate in your lines and cause
hammer.
Insulate your lines, for your protection, not efficiency.
Blow a lot of steam through water and see if it tastes much different than
unsteamed water. A filter medium will also give you some idea of the quality
of your steam.

Or, go to the "Brewery" and pick up my article on building a separate low
pressure steam generator. This will soon have diagrams and pictures.

Charlie  (Brisbane, Australia)

"OOPS!" Algis Korzonas. Comment on the science of brewing? 


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 08:57:47 -0500
From: Ken Frampton <kdf1 at acpub.duke.edu>
Subject: Cornelius Fermenters

I was just wondering what information I could collect on fermenting in 
Cornelius soda kegs.  Do any of you use this approach?  If so do you use a
blow off approach in primary fermentation or do you fit an airlock?  I would
be interested in hearing any techniques used and what pit falls I might
encounter
along the way.


Ken Frampton (kdf1 at acpub.duke.edu)
Graduate Student
Duke University
Department of Mechanical Engineering
Box 90302
Durham, NC  27708-0302
Voice:(919) 660-5434
Fax:  (919) 660-8963


Return to table of contents


Date:          Tue, 19 Dec 1995 09:04:16 +0500 ET
From: "Keith Royster" <N1EA471 at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us>
Subject:       carbonation / legal sankey kegs?

Tom Williams asks:

> A question to the Encyclopedia Brewtannica:  Is there a difference
> between "saturated with CO2" and "carbonated"?  I would have guessed
> that the former is the definition of the latter. 

"Saturated with CO2" means that the liquid has as much CO2 dissolved in
it as it can hold at a given pressure.  It is at equilibrium.

A liquid that is "carbonated" has *more* CO2 dissolved in it than it can 
hold at a given pressure.  It is NOT at equilibrium, but is instead 
SUPERsaturated.  That is why it bubbles.... it's trying to come to 
equilibrium.
========================================================================

On another note, I talked with the owner of a beer & wine store the other
day and I might have discovered a *legal* and very cheap source of SS
sankey kegs for converting into brewing vessles.  

As many of you already know, some of these beer stores will "sell" some
of their empty SS kegs.  The problem is that they do not own the keg, the
brewery/distributor does, so they are actually stealing from the brewery.
And if you buy one to convert into a boiling kettle, you are buying stolen 
property.

Well, the man that I spoke with at this beer store confirmed this for
domestic beers.  However, he stated that many of the European breweries
(such as some of the German beers) do not bother to reclaim their empty
kegs and that 9 out of 10 end up being junked.  So he was more than 
willing to sell me one for just $15.

Now this sounds like a great deal, assuming what he says is true. (Note: 
the European kegs are slightly smaller.. ~13.2 gallons VS the US 15.5).  
And he sounds honest, given that he will not sell the other kegs.  Or is 
he just more likely to get caught selling a domestic keg?  Does anyone 
have any thoughts or comments on this?  Do many of the imported kegs 
really get trashed, thus making it legal for homebrewers to buy them from 
these beer stores?

Keith Royster - NC DEHNR - Mooresville, NC, USA
Air Quality Engineer I / Assist. Network Mgr.
Voice: (704) 663-1699 x252
  Fax: (704) 663-6040
email: KRoyster at mro.ehnr.state.nc.us
etalk: KRoyster at ws21.mro.ehnr.state.nc.us
                             

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 08:33:54 -0600 (CST)
From: phust at unlinfo.unl.edu (patricia hust)
Subject: Chilling my Wort

I keep reading the detailed plans for wort chillers with awe.  People 
tell of cooling their hot wort down in 15 minutes or so.  I pre-boil a
couple of gallons of water and then cool it down to about freezing, or
sometimes even freeze it in 1 gallon plastic jugs.  I put my "boiler" 
on an ice/water mixture in my split sink.  When the ice has all 
melted, I pour the cooled wort into my primary and either pour the 
near freezing water in , or I cut open the jugs and throw in the ice. 
I get my mixture down to 70F in less than 15 min.  Am I doing 
something harmful, or is low tech really just a good?
BTW, I have a Pilsner in the fridg at 38F(bottled two weeks ago).  How
long is the lagering process?  It is tasting pretty good and has a 
nice carbonation now.  What exactly is the lagering process? 
Thanx for any answers.  Jim Hust

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:17:27 -0500
From: genitom at nyslgti.gen.ny.us (Michael Genito)
Subject: Re:Split Boil/Re:Caps/Ancient Egyptian Beer

Mike Uchima wrote:
>I'm a relative newbie (several extract batches) who is thinking of moving up
>to all-grain. There's one hitch, though: I have a stove with a "double oven",
>i.e. there's a second oven over the rangetop -- this restricts the size of pot
>I can use for boiling. The pot I've been using for my extract batches barely
>fits, and it looks like there's NO WAY I'll be able to get a pot large enough
>to boil 6 gallons of wort on there.
>
>The question I have is this: Are there any potential problems with splitting
>the boil into two smaller pots? Can't I just do two 3-gallon boils (in
>parallel), and combine them when I transfer to my primary?
I'm also new (5 batches) and have split the boil each time. In fact, my very
first attempt was to make a 2.5gal batch since I only had one 16qt pot - it
turned out fine but only made 1 case :-(. I now have a second pot and do
split boils with great results. 

Pat Maloney wrote:
>My bag o' caps never said to turn the bottles upside down to activate the
>caps.  Has anyone else come across this same info?
Not this info in particular as it regards O2 caps. However, I came across an
old homebrew book by Beadle (sp?) which indicated that the bottles should be
turned upside down to wet the cap seals and make sure the priming sugar
distributed through the beer in the bottle.

BTW - one of our cable TV stations, The Learning Channel ("TLC") recently
aired a show entitled "The Pharoah's Gold". It was a very interesting
documentary about a group of archealogists and brewers who got together to
unearth info on how the Egyptians actually brewed beer 6,000 yrs ago. It
included recovery of ancient earthenware jugs that held the beer, the
scientists extracting the sediment from the bottom of the jugs and
evaluating what was in the sediment, and combining this info with other
evidence determining what they thought was an actual ancient recipe. They
determined that the Egyptians used two grains, barley and a wheat (arrow
wheat?), mashed these and fermented them in earthenware pots. They may or
may not have used corriander and another local bitter plant as flavoring.
They brewers reproduced the recipe, and found it to be sweet (no hops
bittering) but quite tasty. Another note of interest was that the Egyptians
typically built brewery/bakeries, where both bread and beer were made. Just
FYI - I get nothing from TLC other than a good education.

Happy holidays.

Michael A. Genito, Director of Finance, Town of Ramapo
237 Route 59, Suffern, NY 10901
TEL:  914-357-5100 x214   FAX: 914-357-7209


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:32:18 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mark J. Wilk" <mw5w+ at andrew.cmu.edu>
Subject: Re: Blue Moon - Belgian White

Excerpts from internet.homebrew-beer: 18-Dec-95 Blue Moon - Belgian
White by Mike Morgan at aavid.com 
>Can anyone shed some light on the style of beer.  I have frequently heard
>about Belgian White style but this is the first time I have tried it.

I can not shed light on the style, but I do have some info. to offer on
the beer itself.  Blue Moon Brewing is a subsidary of Coors being brewed
exclusively by the F.X. Matt Brewing Co. (Saranac) in Utica, N.Y.  They
also unveiled a Pumpkin Ale, that was much better, IMHO, than Buffalo
Bill's Pumpkin Ale.  I think that there are two more styles that they
offer, but their names escape me now.  I see that they are advertising
the beer in ASN, and Barley Corn, so we know what market they're going
after.  I hate to see the big breweries gobbling up market share, but at
the same time the competition, and consumer education will only help the
industry.  And it is damn good beer!  

Mark

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:29:17 GMT (Original EST)
From: "Michael R. Swan" <mswan at fdic.gov>
Subject: Hops toxicity in dogs

	I got a question in private email about this posting.  Since other 
people may have the same question, I am posting the question and my response:

>Can you tell me any more about what the article said in terms of
>amounts ingested or hopping rates? 
========================================================================
	According to the article (which, in my haste, I forgot to credit to 
Edie Rehkopf in the November/December 1995 _Field Advisory News_), as yet, 
the toxic agent in the hops has not been identified.  Without this 
identification, it is impossible to determine the absorption rate and the 
exact progress of the toxin.  The author also states that there is no data 
yet on the amount of hops considered dangerous.  

	In the author's case, her husband brewed fifteen gallons of Irish 
stout and strained out the hops into a bucket.  The greyhound was found the 
next morning eating out of the bucket.  No mention of whether it was whole 
hops or pellets but I assume whole hops given the reference to straining.  
Also, since it was a large batch of stout, I am assuming a fairly large
amount of hops were in the bucket.  However, it is not clear how much was 
ingested.  By dinnertime, the dog was severely panting and running a 106 
degree F temperature.  She died thirteen and a half hours after eating the 
hops.  	

	Pretty scary stuff---especially since the Vet first told the woman 
that hops weren't dangerous to dogs.  I guess this means don't dump your used 
hops in the compost pile if there are dogs around.

Mike Swan
Dallas, Texas
mswan at fdic.gov                 
Standard Disclaimers Apply

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 1995 10:50:23 -0500 (EST)
From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Subject: Hops and dogs

With Mike posting about the hops/dogs toxic problem it got me
thinking about a Sam Adams brouchere/newsletter that went out
last month warning about small amounts of beer being bad for
dogs.  Of course they didnt say why or how.  Anyone know??

Jim Busch (who isnt sure if his labs fondness for his IPA is good).
busch at mews.gsfc.nasa.gov

                        ---       ---
                         ---     ---
                          ---   ---
                           --- --- ICTORY BREWING CO.
                            -----    Downingtown, Pa.  
                             ---  
                              -   
 
                     A Victory For Your Taste!
                     Ur-Maerzen, Lager and IPA


Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 19 Dec 95 10:59:55 EST
From: dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma)
Subject: Re: "diacetyl rest" - Noonan vs. Miller



Hi All,

  In HBD#1913, Dan Ritter asks: 

>I've been reading Greg Noonan's "Brewing Lager Beer" and noticed that his
>description of "diacetyl rest" is completely different than Dave Miller's in
>"The Complete Handbook of Home Brewing".

>Will the real Diacetyl Rest please stand up!

   I don't own and have not read Miller's book, but all of the other literature
I've read on this topic suggests that warm temperatures at the end of
fermentation increases yeast activity and encourages the reduction of diacetyl,
just as Noonan describes. Frankly, I don't understand Miller's position on
this at all. Chilling the beer to 35F as he suggests will drop the yeast out
of suspension, which would tend to *inhibit* the reduction of diacetyl.
   George Fix covered this topic in great detail in an article in Brewing 
Techniques about two years ago. If I recall, his conclusions pretty much
agreed with Noonan.

>is this "rest" worth worrying about (or using in
>one's lager brewing process)?

   My understanding of the value of this rest is that it decreases the amount
of lagering time drastically. Without the rest, it may require several months
of lagering to get the equivalent level of diacetyl reduction that is attained
during the two days the beer is held at 52F.
   If you're lagering in a fridge with an external temperature controller, it's
relatively painless to perform the rest. FWIW, I step up from primary at
46F-48F to 52F by simply adjusting the controller 2-3 degrees roughly every 
12 hours. Hold at 52F for 48 hours, then start reducing 2-3 degrees every 12
hours, until it's at 35F or so. Hold it at that temperature for a day or two,
let everything settle out, then rack to secondary. 
   Using this procedure, I usually get good results with 6-8 weeks of lagering
time. This is somewhat strain dependant - some lager yeasts ferment so
cleanly, W34/70 for example, that it's more like 4 weeks.

         Cheers,
           Jim               dipalma at sky.com

Return to table of contents


Date:  Tue, 19 Dec 1995 11:33:10 +0000 
From: "bill (w.r.) crick" <crick at bnr.ca>
Subject:  Cold Lagering 

Eugene Sonn asked about lagering in the cold. I used to do a lot of
lagers by putting them against the basement wall , and covering with blankets,
or a styrofoam cooler I cut so that it insulated the carboy on 3 sides with
the carboy exposed to the cement floor, and wall. This gives a pretty
consistant 45F temperature almost year round. It's not cold enough
for a full blown lagering sycle, but it certainly has some lagering effect.
I was using yeasts then that wouldn't go much below this temp then.
Now I've got a fridge, and some real lager yeasts that can survive down to 
just a bit below 32F.

Bill Crick
Brewius, Eggnog Sum! 




Return to table of contents


Date: 19 Dec 1995 09:40:17 -0700
From: "Richard Scotty" <richard_scotty at msmgate.mrg.uswest.com>
Subject: RE: Hops Toxicity

Mike Swan cautions us about the recent discovery of Hops Toxicity in Dogs:

"Apparently, ingestion of hops results in malignant hyperthermia--an 
uncontrollable fever.  The first symptom to become apparent to an owner is
heavy panting.  Rapid heart rate will also be present, up to 200 beats per
minute.  The dog's body temperature may rise as quickly as 2 degrees F every
five minutes."

A possible coroboratory data point:  I've noticed that if I consume enough
beer, my body temperature rises also.  If consumed in the presence of
attractive females, my heart rate rises substantially.  I'm not sure if this
is related, but I have been known to howl at the moon on occasion.

In any case, the effects on humans obviously needs additional research.  I
believe I'll get started right away...

Rich Scotty -  Chief of hops toxicity research - The Crapshoot Brewery


Return to table of contents

End of HOMEBREW Digest #1914, 12/20/95