---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Return; Sugar Beer; Portland Brewing (Glenn Raudins)
  SAK (James Kendall)
  RIMS ("Anton Verhulst")
  Re: The Macintosh Minority /Lager Truble? (Gary McCarthy)
  Use of Copper in Brewing ("Palmer.John")
  vinometer (Tracy Thomason)
  European brewery visits (michael j dix)
  Special B (BOBKATPOND)
  Re: Goofy gravities (Dan Pack)
  chili beer (Scott Rudolph)
  Scottish Ales/Black Silk/Clean Koelsch/Wyeast and strain origins (Algis R Korzonas)
  Basmati Pale Ale recipe (Bart Thielges)
  Bottle cleaning (Craig Stewart)
  Special B, Gravity readings (ByronOlive)
  mega-brewery beer (Robert Rogers)
  Scottish Ale (Mike Urseth)
  non-sucking variant (Dick Dunn)
  Nutty beers...... (Aesoph, Michael)
  wort chilling (Wallinger)
  Stuck Fermentation, chillers, other stuff (Bob McCowan)
  Monitoring CF Chiller Temps (Marty Tippin)
  Brewer's Companion ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Flour layer (Matt_K)
  Re: Adding cold water to brewpot? (Spencer W Thomas)
  Lager - Yeast Bottling Question ("Olson, Greger J - CI/911-2")
  Lagering times--summary of responses (Tam Thompson)
  Re: re: mixed gasses....continued (pbabcock)



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 09:50:45 -0800 (PST)
From: raudins at lightscape.com (Glenn Raudins)
Subject: Return; Sugar Beer; Portland Brewing


Having been gone from the digest for a while, about a year, (work work work),
I return to a rather hectic digest.  (Copyrights, etc.)  First things first,
welcome to all of the beginners that have been asking for info, I tried to
send off some info as I remember what it was like back when starting, trying
to find info.

In issue #1970, Domenick rightfully straightens out a bit of bad info:

>First, John, this is a beer list.  I am not a beer snob but your recipe is
>not for beer.  It appears to be a lightly flavored alcoholic solution, not
>unlike Zima, though you do mention hops.  My guess is that its primary
>function is the production of cheap, non-lethal, drunkedness.

You missed the reference to 14 dozen bottles from this recipe?!? Jeez...

>results.  Who strive for better beer, even better beer more simply, but
>the operative adjective here is "better".  This list is the antithesis to
>the cane sugar, molasses, and baker's yeast type beers of prohibition
>of which yours is a modern example. 

Good lashing, but this brings up a point.  (I went back through a good
number of back issues to make sure I don't talk out of turn.)  I, being a
long time brewing techie-gadget freak, notice that the digest has split
into struggling beginners and hard core tech talk.  I think we are missing
the middle ground.   Recipes are becoming rarer, and as most of us know
this is how many have improved their beers by looking at others recipes.

So along these lines, I will run through my recipe book to look for anything
that would help the collective.  

Now, anyone have any grist info and/or yeast type used by Portland Brewing
company?  Specificly, their McTarnahan's Ale.  Imitation can be the best way
to polish the brewing process. 

Glenn Raudins 
raudins at lightscape.com
Not an ounce of Copyright.

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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 12:56:06 EST
From: James Kendall <kendall at ltee.hydro.qc.ca>
Subject: SAK

Does anyone on the digest know of a source of used SAK's?  If this 
question has already been adressed before, please indicate the digest #.  
Thanks loads.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 14:04:30 -0500
From: "Anton Verhulst" <verhulst at zk3.dec.com>
Subject: RIMS


Dion Hollenbeck writes:

>I would be really interested to learn where you heard about
>carmelization of wort on the heater element......  With a low density
>element (72"long when all stretched out, and only 1125 watts) scorching
>will never occur...

I'd love to find such a heating element, could you list a source and part
number??

Re: using a water bath to heat recirculating wort rather than having the heater
directly in the wort:

>While your method may work, I suspect that you are losing a lot of
>heat transfer efficiency and have lots of hysterisis in the system due
>to lag time from when you turn on the element to when that heat
>actually reaches the mash..... 

I think that the amount of hysterisis can be reduced considerably if
the temperature sensors were in the water bath rather than in the wort.
That is, if you can maintain the water bath at 154F (for instance), wort
running thru copper tubing would be maintained at that temperature also.
A mechanical stirrer in the bath will help.


- --Tony V.

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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 12:45:28 -0700
From: gmccarthy at dayna.com (Gary McCarthy)
Subject: Re: The Macintosh Minority /Lager Truble?

In HBD 1970, Darrin writes:

>ARE there only 4 of us Mac users(?)
No way!   There are many Mac users out in BrewLand.  There is no reason to
believe that the majority of HBD readers are PC cusses!  Don't polls say that
a majority of internet users are Mac people?  As far as one can believe polls.
 I think the same proportion of HBD readers are Mac users too.  We just might
not think we need brewing software.  Some one should do a poll(but not me!).

High terminal gravity in Lagers has been mentioned recently.  In making my
first lagers(all-grain) this year, I have a high terminal gravity(1.023 or was
it 1.030) on the first.  I haven't seen any posts on resolution.

My ales terminal gravity is usually low teens (1.010-1.015).  So I don't think
brewing technique is a factor.  My I wonder if the garage got too cold?  It
has been very cold in SLC at times, but would my lager yeast hibernate because
the wort temp got down to 32F(est)?  Maybe I should bring the carboy inside
for a couple of days?  

I am making a yeast starter for the Northern European Pilsner(from Millers
book) which I made this weekend.  I think also I will use half for the Pilsner
and half to try to jump start the Kolsch.  So what if it is a Pilsner yeast! 
Don't nobody give me any trouble! 

Any other solutions anyone can think of?

Gary McCarthy in SLC       Live music is better!  Bumper stickers should be
issued!  N Young
gmccarthy at dayna.com       Piss off and scroll down for crissakes.  Jim Busch

Return to table of contents


Date: 27 Feb 1996 12:30:59 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Use of Copper in Brewing

Jeff Benjamin had some questions on the use of Copper in Brewing in view of its
general avoidance for contacting with food. He concluded with:

>So, why is copper okay for brewing but not for cooking in?

>A few conjectures:
>1.  Copper leached into the wort during brewing is consumed by the yeast
    during fermentation?
>2.  Copper ions attach to some other component of the wort and settle 
    out.
>3.  Beer doesn't leach much copper into the wort compared to other foods
    you might cook (due to pH or ...)?
>4.  It's the mechanical action of cooking (scraping, etc.) that releases
    copper during cooking; this doesn't happen nearly so much with 
    brewing?
>5.  The copper is in the beer, you just don't drink that much beer, 
    compared to the amount of food you eat.

The answers are:
1. Probably to some degree, I have not seem any documentation to this affect.
2. ditto.
3. A-Ha! This is the big reason. Chemistry is the key. Beer Wort is not very
aggressive to copper. It is more aggressive to some copper oxides, which is why
wort chillers tend to come out very shiny, but gradually develop a patina that
protects the surface even more. My Immersion chiller, which I just hose-off
after using, has a dull copper finish to it, and does not change color
appreciably in the wort. Other foods (chemicals) will affect the copper
differently.
4. IF you were to scrape the sides of your chiller/pot with a metal spoon while
it was in the wort, then you would get more copper coming off. More of a "small
amount".
5. Probably true. Copper in beer Could be a problem, based on recent brewing
practice of monitoring for it at some brewhouses. (No I dont remember) 

Last year, I put together a data package for Jim Neighbors of the AOB, which
they sent out to Lobbyists and Breweries because the FDA was proposing to
Forbid the use of copper in Food Manufacturing eg. brewing.  I have the final
letter at home and can post the text if anyone is interested. Basically Copper
and Beer get along fine.

John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/



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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 21:37:29 GMT
From: tracyt at llano.net (Tracy Thomason)
Subject: vinometer


I ordered a vinometer today but the guy said he didn't have instructions 
for it.  Can anyone tell me how to use one?

Thanks,
Tracy
tracyt at llano.net


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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 13:57:25 "PST
From: michael j dix <mdix at dcssc.sj.hp.com>
Subject: European brewery visits

I really enjoyed visiting the Brasserie Cantillon in Anderlecht,
a suburb of Brussels, Belgium.  It is a family-run operation, with
a self-guided tour and a nice drinking room.  They make gueuzes and
lambics, along with cherry and raspberry flavored versions.

We went last May, and every one was super-friendly.  As we left,
the brewer was eating a cheese sandwich on the sidewalk with
his black Lab, both enjoying the sun.

The place was interesting, somewhat like the Straffe Hendrik 
brewery, but not as tall.  I enjoyed the storage room where the hops
were drying out and browning.  These beers are challenging for the
uninitiated.  There was a group of German youth ahead of us, and they
left their glasses half-empty.  We bought some bottles for aging,
and the lady advised us to store them in our cellar, not in the
fridge where it's subject to vibration.

The only problem we had was finding the darn place.  We had
the address from the Michael Jackson book, and I thought, 
how big could Anderlecht be? 

We took the highway from Bruges to the freeway, then got off at the first 
Anderlecht exit.  After a while, it became evident that we were
not going to just stumble across it, so we parked and walked to 
a bus shelter to read the map.  Well, it was a map of all of Brussels,
so it was not much help.  I asked the young lady waiting for the
bus, if she knew where this brewery was, or the street it was on.
(in French, cause she she did not speak English.)  She did not know,
being new to the neighborhood, but suggested I ask at the corner
restaurant.

The restaurateur did not know, so he went to ask the cook.  Minutes
passed.  Finally the owner came out with a Brussels map book.  
Eureka! he had found the street.  I asked how to get there from
where we were (in the same town, mind you).  He just shook his head.
The simplest thing was to get back on the freeway, go two exits, and 
turn back in.  Well, one exit was closed, so we went three exits,
and got in the most horrifically snarled traffic I have ever seen.

We eventually got there (it is a little east and south of
the heart of Anderlecht), but it was a bit of a strain (my wife
was mentally dialling the divorce lawyer's number for quite
a while.)  She made me take a vow, no more city driving in Belgium.

So, if you intend to go there by car, plot your route out ahead of
time, and take a navigator who can relate where the car is to the map
at all times.  Navigating in Brussels is somewhat challenging:
Imagine smashing a large mirror, so that all the pieces stay in place.
Each individual line segment would represent a Brussels street.
At any intersection, (up to seven streets that I saw) there would 
be one metal street sign for each street on the second floor of
a building.  Best thing to do is have some one run ahead of the
car at intersections to read all the street signs, because you
may get to the corner and not see any.

Driving away at lunch time was an eerie experience.  The streets were
full of seemingly abandoned cars.  No problem, the drivers were just
enjoying a leisurely lunch, and we should have been too.

Mike Dix (mdix at dcssc.sj.hp.com)

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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:45:13 -0500
From: BOBKATPOND at aol.com
Subject: Special B

 Jim Cave writes:
Subject: Special "B" is crystal??!!

        I could be corrected, but I read the post by (?) concerning the
use of special B and the comment was made that this was some sort of 
a special, high roast crystal malt.  This does not look to be the case
from my examination of this malt.  It appears to be some sort of high 
roast malt but I could not see any caramelization of the interiour of the
malt that would indicate a crystalization inside.  I chewed a several 
kernals and the perception is one of a drying roast, rather than a 
lusiousness (which would be perceived from crystal).

In the Zymurgy special 1995 issue, Special B is listed under caramelized
malts with a color of 220L.  So I would agree, it is best described as a dark
crystal malt!

Bob Morris

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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 16:52:19 -0800
From: danpack at grape-ape.che.caltech.edu (Dan Pack)
Subject: Re: Goofy gravities


In HBD #1970 Steve (CASteveB at aol.com) writes:

> Last Sunday (18 Feb) I brewed an American Pale Ale.  I used 6 lbs. Light DME
> as well as some steeped specialty grains.  For a 5 gal batch, this should
> have yielded a SG of approximately 1.050 (Assuming 1.042 for the DME).  After
> it was in the fermenter I took a SG reading and it was 1.026! (It also tasted
> incredibly bitter, which I think would make sense if the SG was half of what
> I was shooting for.)

I'm just speculating here, but I'd be willing to bet you used a partial
boil.  You boiled in 2-3 gal of water then topped up in the fermenter
to 5 gals, right?  Heavy, sugar-laden wort on the bottom, nice light clear
water on top....  See where I'm going?  You didn't mix it up before you
took the SG reading did you?  All your extract was in there, it's just
that most of it was on the bottom and you took your sample from the top.

How do I know so much?  I did exactly the same thing about 6 months ago ;^)

Oh, and the high bitterness is normal for wort with significant IBUs (which
you pale ale has (I sincerely hope B^).  That sharp bitterness
will change a lot during the fermentation and conditioning.  Wort doesn't
taste all that pleasant, IMHO, but for the experienced wort taster it can
tell you a lot so keep on tasting.

BTW, Steve, feel free to correct me if I missed the boat on this one.

Dan Pack
Pasadena, CA

Mac user and proud of it!!!

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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 20:23:41 -0600 (CST)
From: Scott Rudolph <rudy at execpc.com>
Subject: chili beer

                
  I  would like to bottle something similar to Cave Creek chili beer;  I
understand it's a matter of putting a pepper in each of the bottles when
bottling.  The only thing that concerns me is sanitation.  Has anyone done
this?  I  think I  remember reading that the peppers are best sanitized by a
short microwave bath.  I'm not real comfortable with that, but will probably
do it unless someone else has a better suggestion.

Thanks for any ideas.
Scott


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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 96 16:47:09 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Scottish Ales/Black Silk/Clean Koelsch/Wyeast and strain origins

I think that Ken and Robert may be right about my personal impressions
regarding the bitterness and dryhopping in Scottish Ales, namely that
my experineces are with the southern third of Scotland.  It could very
well be true that as one goes further north in Scotland that they may
tend to be less bitter.  I will have to take another look at Roger Protz's
book and see if perhaps the majority of the ales that seem to be bittered
at "English Bitter" rates are from southern Scotland.  I'm sorry if I did
err here, but it did make for some interesting discussion either way, no?

***
Darrin writes:
>Grains/Malt Extract: 
>8 lb. Mountmellick stout kit
>1/2 cup flaked barley
>2 cups Quaker oats
>1/2 cup black patent
>1/4 cup chocolate malt

I'm afraid that you didn't get much from the barley or oats other than
starch haze (which was covered up, no doubt, by the blackness of the beer).
None of the grains you mention have any enzymes and therefore there was no
conversion of the starch in the flaked barley or oats.  You may have gotten
some beta glucans out of them which would add some body -- does anyone know
if you can get beta glucans out of flaked barley and oats with a 30 minute
steep at 140-145F followed by a 10 min steep at 155F?  My guess is that
you can't.  A.J.?  George?  Charlie?

***
Jim writes:
>While a decent lager can be made with this malt,
>a better lager can be made with the likes of malt from Bamberg.  I
>dont feel that a traditional alt can be produced with domestic 2 row,
>nor a clean Koelsch, it would be too grainy.

I have not tried to make either Alts or Koelsches with domestic (US for all
our international readers) 2-row, however I was struck by Jim's choice of
words:  "nor a clean Koelsch, it would be too grainy."  Perhaps it is a
matter of semantics, but the best (in my opinion) Koelsches I tasted in
Koeln last summer were very "grainy" in flavour and had a significant DMS
component.  I have to look at my notes to recall my other favorites, but
I recall that I really liked Mueller Koelsch and it was one of, what I
would call, "the grainyest" ones.  I would have to agree with Rob that
US 2-row would work for many types of lagers, some Belgian ales and Koelsch,
but would agree with Jim that you really need continental Munich malt to
make a decent traditional Alt.  Jim -- what did you mean by "grainyness"
in reference to Koelsches?  I think the grainyness is *required* for a
good Koelsch.

***
Both Tom "I don't think Dave has any motivation to lie about the origin
	  of his yeast if the brewery of origin doesn't care."

and Jeff "I thought Al's comment was totally uncalled for, frankly.  Dave
	  has *never* to my knowledge, deceived anyone about the source of
	  a strain."

paint me as a villain.  The first time that I spoke with Dave Logsdon about
the origin of his strains was back when Wyeast only sold approximately 14
strains or so.  Back then, from our conversation, I got the impression that
he was hesitant to divulge the sources of the yeast strains.  There was
even some discussion on HBD regarding legal issues of yeast strains (this
was perhaps 1991 or 1992).  The last time I spoke to him about the strains
was when I was asking him about the new Koelsch yeast and the London ESB.
He said that all he knew was that the Koelsch yeast was definitely from
a brewery in Koeln and sounded rather uncomfortable when I asked him about
the London ESB -- I dropped the subject of strain identification and talked
to him about something else.

Never did I say that Dave lies about where the strains come from nor did I
say that he has deceived anyone about the sources.  Tom was the first person
to use the word "lies" in this discussion and Jeff the first to use "deceived."

If there was actually no problem with knowing the sources of the yeasts,
then why would the sheets that Wyeast Labs give out to retailers not contain
the source names?

It would be great if we knew where the strains came from if that's possible.
Ironically, I'm in the process of doing something like that, but perhaps it
is impossible for some strains due to the suppliers' agreements with the
breweries.  Maybe it was just my bad luck that the strains I asked Dave
about just happened to be the ones for he could not divulge the sources.

I use Wyeast strains almost exclusively and think that Dave Logsdon has
done more for improving homebrewed beer than anyone on this planet.  So,
please stop implying that I said bad things about him.  Furthermore, if you
shared the previous posts with Dave, please make sure he gets a copy of this
one too!

Al.
Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com
Nothing worth copyrighting in this post, even though it technically is, anyway.

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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 18:56:45 -0800
From: Bart Thielges <bart.thielges at Xilinx.COM>
Subject: Basmati Pale Ale recipe

We originally formulated this recipe because the Shade Tree Brewery (a.k.a
Paul's driveway) was prone to producing deep, flavorful, chewy brews.  Our
friends "who don't like beer" seemed to shy away from our keg and crack
open a Coors Light instead.  The solution - brew a rice beer for them.

Unexpectibly, we stumbled across a beer that tastes good to us too.  I'd
like to share the recipe :

Basmati Pale Ale II	Brewed 11-12-95

(yield 19 gallons)

25 lb.	Domestic Pale malt
1.5 lb.	Carapils
1 lb.	Flaked Maize
6 lb	Basmati rice
1	Hindi aphorism
2 lb.	Honey

Before the mash, the rice was cooked for about 20 minutes in a larger
than normal amount of water - a sort of soupy texture.  This prevented
Paul's housemates from raiding the rice for lunch.

Single infusion mash at 152F, sparged to 16 gallons of wort.

Hops :

2 oz	5.3%	Stryian Goldings	60 min
2	"	"	"		30
1	3.3%	Saaz			15
1	5.3%	Stryian Goldings	5
1	3.3%	Saaz			0

About midway through the boil, invoke the Hindi aphorism, thumb your
nose in the general direction of Munich, and say "Nicht Reinheitsgebot".

The OG of the wort was 1.078.

Yeasts used were stepped up Wyeast strains : Irish and German ale (I 
forget the numbers).  Three batches had German, one had Irish.

The remaining 14.5 gallons left at the end of the boil was split evenly
into 4 glass carboys for fermentation. 3/4 to 1.5 gallons of water was
added to each primary to dilute down a random amount, insuring that
we won't be able to exactly duplicate this recipe.  The FGs ranged
from 1.010 to 1.012.

Enjoy !

Bart thielges at xilinx.com
brewing equipment destroyed this session - NIL

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Date: Tue, 27 Feb 1996 14:21:21 -0400 (AST)
From: Craig Stewart <foghorn1 at darwin.nbnet.nb.ca>
Subject: Bottle cleaning

Ladies and Gentlemen,

rSlightly off the topic of *brewing* the beer, but on the topic of 
*bottling* the brew.  I've been brewing for a while now, partial mashes 
and the like.  Ive got a pain in the arse that takes a lot of the fun out 
of brewing for myself.  CLEANING THE DAMN BOTTLES!  I wash out the 
bottles after I drink them, but invariably I have to aquire new ones.  As 
I don't drink the domestic swill that is offered exclusivly in my small 
part of Canada, I have to get second hand bottles.  Some of the stuff 
that comes out of them makes me want to 'recycle' the obligitory 
homebrews that I consume while brewing and bottling.  Are there any ideas 
as to how to clean out this mess.  Yes, I have a dishwasher, I'm it! 
<grin>

Next question, to sanitize them, how much household bleach should I put in
~20 - 25 litres of water.  If I put in enough to smell it, I have a devil
of a time geting the smell out, and if I can't smell it, I don't know if I
have enough!  Otherwise, I'm having fun. 

Oh, BTW, I see something called a RIMS on this discussion.  Any one want
to enlighten my ignorace on this proce
dure? 

And remember; Homebrew, good for what Ales you! <pun intended! groan!!!>

- --
**************************************************************************

Disclaimer: Any resemblance between the above views and those of my
employer, my terminal, or the view out my window are purely
coincidental.  Any resemblance between the above and my own views is
non-deterministic.  The question of the existence of views in the
absence of anyone to hold them is left as an exercise for the reader.
The question of the existence of the reader is left as an exercise for
the second god coefficient.  (A discussion of non-orthogonal,
non-integral polytheism is beyond the scope of this article.)

**************************************************************************  

flames to /dev/null

Craig Stewart
foghorn1 at mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca




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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 00:13:39 -0500
From: ByronOlive at aol.com
Subject: Special B, Gravity readings

I saw the recent posts etc..

Special B stands for special biscuit and is a belgian (origin) malt. I've
seen the color range from 180-220 Lov. I believe it is a dextrin malt and is
produced in similar fashion to crystal malt. All of the "cara-malts"
carapils, caravienne, caramunich, and special b and crystals are "stewed"
heated to saccharification temps to convert startch to sugar. In the case of
the crystal malts the malt is then dried at high temps to carmalize the
sugar. The dextrin malts however, are dryed at low temps so as not to
carmelize the sugar. Longer times for darker malt? The addition of dextrin
malts add body and head retention with little of the sweetness we get from
crystal malt.  

I think it's been said before but..
People with the continually high ending gravities need to consider their
fermentation conditions such as: pitching rate (too low), available oxygen,
and temperature. Compare your attenuation to the yeast manufacturers to see
how close and possibly adjust the above mentioned conditions to increase
performance. Just for grins check your hydrometer against 60F water to be
sure the paper inside hasn"t slipped - it happens.

Byron Schmidt

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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 01:20:46 -0500
From: bob at carol.net (Robert Rogers)
Subject: mega-brewery beer

i've seen the light in a new way. i don't consider the beer i make very
good, but since i ran out i opened up a can of beer. wow. bad. i can _taste_
corn. i hope that stuff in the secondary is ready to keg soon!! i can't wait
'till i'm an "expert" brewer like some of y'all :)

bob rogers,  bob at carol.net


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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 00:34:19 -0600
From: beernote at realbeer.com (Mike Urseth)
Subject: Scottish Ale

>From: bush at shbf.se (Robert Bush)
>Subject: Re: Scottish Ale

>Hi,
>
>Al Korzonas, Fredrik Stahl and Ken (I can't find his posting) have been
>discussing Scottish Ale and I must support Fredrik's theory that the style
>has changed from a century ago. It's a lot easier to travel these days;
>borders fade and we all exchange ideas (just look at this forum!) that
>spread more easily today than just a few decades ago. However, I would like
>to quote Graham Wheeler (British brewer and beer writer that has co-written
>a couple of books with the aforementioned Roger Protz). In his book "Home
>Brewing - The CAMRA Guide" he writes about two Scottish Ale recipes: "Very
>lightly hopped, typical of Scottish beers." and "--still very lightly
>hopped in the Scottish tradition."

The best answer that I've heard to this question came from Bill Burdick,
master of all he surveys at Sherlock's Home brewpub in Minnesota. Bill
lived in Britain for years and worked in the brewing industry. His Scotch
Ale (Pipers' Pride) uses an additional bitter agent called quassia (sp?)
that is derived from the bark of some plant grown in the New World. The use
of this ingredient was common since the thrifty Scots were loathe to import
hops from England. Apparently hops don't grow as well as heather in the
Scottish climes.

For what it's worth, this is the brew that Michael Jackson drinks when he's
visiting Sherlock's.

Anyone who loves true British ales should make a pilgrimage to Sherlock's.
I stop by every chance I get.

Mike Urseth
Editor & Publisher
Midwest Beer Notes
339 Sixth Avenue
Clayton, WI  54004
715-948-2990 ph.
715-948-2981 fax
e-mail:  beernote at realbeer.com



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Date: 28 Feb 96 03:01:19 MST (Wed)
From: rcd at raven.eklektix.com (Dick Dunn)
Subject: non-sucking variant

Russell Mast <rmast at fnbc.com> wrote a long explanation of his siphon-
cleaning and siphon-starting techniques in HBD 1968.  He ends with
>...Honestly - I don't understand how or why anyone does it differently...

Of course, I feel the same way about my technique, but it's different;-)
Since I've been using it for 15 years and I'm relatively stupid and clumsy,
I figure I can offer some suggestions that might help.  I'll not try to be
as careful or detailed as Russ was.

The basic idea is that if you get a hunk of tubing with the ends held
uppermost at equal height, you can fill it by pouring a stream into one
end.

Figure two pieces of equipment: the racking cane (rigid J-shaped tube) and
the racking hose (flexible tubing, fits over end of cane, useful if it's
about 6' long).  Attach tube to cane, get open ends uppermost, fill with
sanitizing stuff, futz as needed to assuage paranoia.  Detach cane, attach
funny little orange thing, finish cleaning it (outside) and shpluck it in
the carboy.  Grab ends of racking hose, hold upright (U shape), pour clean
water (e.g., boiled tap water) into one side until the U is full.  Carry
to carboy, keeping open ends upright and even with one another.  Attach
one end to racking cane.  Pinch the other end.  Drop it way down--this is
why you want a good hunk of the flex tubing, to get enough drop to start
the siphon.  Un-pinch and let water flow into a cup 'til siphon starts,
then start racking or bottling or whatever.  No suck.  The water in the
racking hose starts the siphon.

If you get a wimpy start on the siphon, or if you're siphoning young beer/
mead (where there's carbonation), there may be a tendency to create a
bubble in the hose that causes trouble.  Give the hose a very quick pinch
in the middle of the bubble and the bubble will break off and head down the
hose as the siphon runs.  If the bubble was due to carbonation and the
pressure drop of the siphon, it will likely re-create itself, so it may
help to pinch it out a couple times during the transfer.  If you're
bottling when you do this, you might want to keep an eye on the bottle-
fill.  I've gotten fascinated watching the bubble traverse the hose to
where I've tried to put 14 oz in a 12-oz bottle.
- ---
Dick Dunn      rcd at talisman.com      Boulder, Colorado  USA
   Turn off the tube.  Hang up the phone.  Get out of the car.  Log off.
   Get out and live for real.

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Date: 28 Feb 96 08:10:28 EST
From: aesoph at ncemt1.ctc.com (Aesoph, Michael)
Subject: Nutty beers......

Dear Collective:



	A while ago, I was helping a friend empty his fridge of imported beers 
(by consumption of course) and I noticed that some of the beers had a 
nice "toasted almond" taste.  Does anyone out there know a good beer 
recipe that includes almonds or other unique flavor ingredients?



					Mike Aesoph


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Date: Sun, 18 Feb 1996 07:05:12 -0600
From: Wallinger <wawa at datasync.com>
Subject: wort chilling

charlesd at nando.net (charlesd) wrote:

>A quick question for the collective:

> is there any problem with 
>adding cold water to about 3 gallons of boiling wort to bring the total 
>volume up to 5 gallons and then cooling to pitching temp using the
>sanitized wort chiller?

use the chiller first, then add the water. you'll get faster temperature
reduction by chilling the hot wort because of the larger temperature
differential.

wade
pascagoula, mississippi


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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 08:22:51 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: Stuck Fermentation, chillers, other stuff

Kevin...liquori at acc.fau.edu is concerned about a stuck fermentation.

Assuming that your fermentation temperature is OK, I'd suggest that you
didn't pitch enough yeast or aerate enough (or both).  What I'd do at this
stage is get some more yeast, make a good size starter (2 liters or so),
well aerated, and pitch at high kreusen.  That way you'll have some healthy
active yeast that will hopefully finish out your fermentation.

About Chillers:

There is an excellent treatment on wort chilling by Charlie Scandrett at the
brewery (www.alpha.rollanet.org).  In particular, he explains why extremely
long is not necessary.  

Clay Crenshaw asks whether there is any difference between the finished beer
when the product is force carbonated or primed in the keg.  I've never
primed in the keg but I have racked early and let secondary fermentation
finish in the keg.  The only differenc I've found between the two methods is
that there's a lot more yeast in the bottom of the keg with the natural
carbonation.

I'd like to add a little to John W. Braue's observation about specific
gravity measurements.  Remember that when you take measurements it's
important that when you get wildly inconsistent answers or answers
significantly different from what you expect it's worth checking your
measurements.  For instance, if I measured the outside temperature in July
at -20 F, I'd be suspicious of the thermometer. Look for the simple
explanation - it's almost always the right answer. Common sense is your best
guide here.

Keg Leaks

If there is a light rough spot, the O-ring probably can't flow into the
rough area and seal at low pressure.  You might try an O-ring lubricant.
You might try sanding the rough spot with fine sandpaper or scotchbrite.  If
you do, go easy and always sand perpendicular to the gas folow direction,
otherwise you may end up making scratches that will breach the O-ring.

About the "Homebrewers Companion "Tom Fitzpatrick says "Yes, the first
edition has some glaring errors. Just get the latest edition."

Are you suggesting that I reward the sloppy work of the first edition by
buying the corrected one?  You'd think they were a software company :)

Bob



- --------------------------------------------------------------------------
Bob McCowan                            
                                      voice:  (508)-922-6000 x208
ATG/Receiver-Protector                fax:    (508)-922-8914
CPI BMD
Formerly Varian CF&RPP                e-mail: bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com
Beverly, MA  01915

- ---------------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 07:32:51 -0600
From: Marty Tippin <martyt at sky.net>
Subject: Monitoring CF Chiller Temps

The recent discussion regarding the performance of counterflow chillers
prompts me to offer a tip on monitoring the output temperature of the wort
from the chiller - I don't know how most of you do it, but I found a simple
method that gives instantaneous, continuous reading of the temperature of
the wort exiting the chiller.  I use it to adjust the flow rate of cooling
water to get the temperature where I want it - winter time water at my house
is running about 50F, so I have to fiddle with the flow rates to keep the
wort at pitching temp (around 68F)...

You'll need a short length of 3/8" ID vinyl tubing (which you probably
already use to direct the flow from the chiller to your fermenter) and a
instant-read type thermometer (the kind with a 1" dial and a 6" or so probe,
about 1/8" diameter and pointed on the end - the one I've got is made by
Taylor, and they go for about $10 at Wal-Mart, etc.)  

Attach the tubing to the output end of the chiller.  About 2" from the end
of the chiller, poke the pointed end of the thermometer probe through the
vinyl tubing, at an angle almost parallel to the tubing.  Slide the
thermometer into the vinyl so the end of the probe is up inside the copper
tubing of the chiller.  The vinyl should seal around the probe and prevent
leaks.  Now as the wort exits the chiller, you get a (nearly) instant
reading of its temperature and can adjust the rates accordingly.

 -Marty
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Marty Tippin          | Tippin's Law #24:  Never underestimate the
martyt at sky.net        | power of human stupidity.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
Check out my 2-Tier Converted Keg Brewing System
at http://www.sky.net/~martyt/2tier.html
- --------------------------------------------------------------------


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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 09:26:53 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: Brewer's Companion

In Digest #1971:
fitz at fasicsv.fnal.gov (Tom Fitzpatrick) wrote:
>D & S Painter wrote :
>> I now have a quick question for anyone who has purchased or has been in 
>> contact with Randy Mosher's book The Brewer's Companion; could you 
>> please give me a review on this book.
> 
>Mark writes:
>
>>>I picked up this book last year and after reading it I wasn't all that 
>>>excited about it and sorry that I spent $20 for it.  I have found David 
>>>Miller's new book much more interesting and a better use of my money.
>
>I have to strongly disagree; Are we comparing Randy Mosher's book to
>Millers' "Brewing the World's Great Beers" ???
>To me, there is no comparison.
[snip]
>The Brewer's Companion has 
>many useful sections on water treatment, enzyme activity, hop varieties
>and IBU calculations, clarifying agents, extract potential, etc. 
>I even used parts of Mosher's book to study for the bjcp exam. It 
>presents some very technical info in an approachable manner. 
>I frequently reference Mosher's book when I can't remember a certain
>detail, but I haven't even opened Miller's book recently...
[snip]
>Yes, the first edition has some glaring errors. Just get the latest edition.

I'd like to see more input on this thread. I have a pretty decent brewing
library and I've been considering adding this book, particularly for the
kind of technical information referred to here. I'd really appreciate
reading more comments/reviews either in the HBD or via email.
What IS the latest addition,anyway? Thanks.
    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu


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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 09:33:14 est
From: Matt_K at ceo.sts-systems.ca
Subject: Flour layer

Gentle correction mode on

In Wednesday's HBD Rog Lauriston says while talking about the flour 
layer in the mash tun:

>This is sometimes called 'top-dough' or by the German word 'tieg'
>(prounounced 'teague' ;-) which means dough or paste.  Handy word 
>just 'cause it's shorter.

Actually it's spelled "Teig" (meaning dough) and pronounced like 
"tike"  but with a "g" substituted for the "k".

As stated before, this is just a gentle correction, not a flame or 
anything like that. 

My credentials?  I was bron in Germany, lived there for 16 years and 
still speak the language with my parents.


Matt
in Montreal



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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:09:50 -0500
From: Spencer W Thomas <spencer at engin.umich.edu>
Subject: Re: Adding cold water to brewpot? 

>>>>> "Derek" == Derek Lyons <elde at hurricane.net> writes:

    Derek> Boil the 3 gallons *first* and set it aside to cool.
    Derek> (Overnight?)  That way it's sterile and the chlorine is
    Derek> gone.

A note: if your municipal water system uses cloramine to sanitize (as
does mine), boiling will *not* remove it.  Your only recourse is to
charcoal filter.

Our system will soon be switching to ozonation, but I'll keep on
filtering -- it makes the water taste much better, especially in the
summer, when it tends to taste a little "swampy".


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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 96 07:30:00 PST
From: "Olson, Greger J - CI/911-2" <gjolson at bpa.gov>
Subject: Lager - Yeast Bottling Question


This is a somewhat premature query, since my dopplebock (my 1st lager) will 
not be ready to bottle for another three weeks, but what is the consensus of 
the collective on the need to add fresh yeast prior to bottling?  I have 
heard differing recommendations, and I'd hate to spend this much time on a 
brew only to have flat beer.  Thanks.

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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 10:13:29 -0600
From: Tamth at mail.utexas.edu (Tam Thompson)
Subject: Lagering times--summary of responses

I received three very good replies this morning to my previous post requesting
some insight on the relationship of lagering times to OG.  In other words,
can you get away with shorter lager time for lighter gravity (summer) beers?
 
Jim Booth of Lansing, Michigan reports that a brewery tour revealed lagering
times of three weeks for Pilsners, at 32+ F.  He adds that he lagers three
weeks,
then finishes the lagering process after bottling.  I've heard of this---you
can just store your bottled beer in the fridge to finish the process.

Tracy Aquilla reports that Eric Warner of the Tabernash Brewery in Colorado
(where my long-lost buddy Joe Barfield brews!) writes in his book on wheat 
beers that some general guidelines are:

        6-8 weeks at 35 F
or      4-6 weeks at 40 F
or      2-4 weeks at 45 F

with the caveat that people report that beer lagered at the colder temperatures
tastes smoother.  Just as with fermentation temperatures, colder = better.
I used to ferment my lagers at 45 F, and was told that I was probably fermenting
and lagering at the same time.  This fermentation took about two months, but
it may  have eliminated the need to lager.  You can do this, but bear in 
mind the "smoothness"  caveat.  And, after all, part of the purpose of lager
beer is smoothness, so I now prefer to lager at 32-33.

Tim Laatsch of Kalamzoo, Michigan quoted Greg Noonan, from "Brewing Lager Beer":

        7-12 days at 33-34 F for each 2 degrees Balling, or each .008 of OG

to give the example, from my current lagers, one of them is a Vienna of OG
1.045.
Divide .045 by .008 (or just divide 45 by 8), and you get 5.625.  Multiply
that by 7, and you get 39.375, rounded to 40 days.  So, I can indeed get away
with a 6-week lagering period for this beer.  For my other lager, the 
organic ginger-pepper honey lager (I am not making this up), at OG 1.040,
the minimum lagering time works out to 35 days---5 weeks.  Very nice.
I'd imagine that for bocks and 2x, 3x, and 4x-bocks, you'd want to use the
upper range, i.e., 12 days per .008

     Hope this info helps someone as much as it helped me!
               Tam Thompson
               (Home nanobrewery:  Barbell Brewing Co., Austin, Texas)
               Tamth at mail.utexas.edu
 


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Date: Wed, 28 Feb 1996 11:22:54 -0500
From: pbabcock at ford.com
Subject: Re: re: mixed gasses....continued

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

Jerry Lee asks "why ask others?" along with a bunch of other questions. To this
I respond...

Why ask others? Because it is pretty much the _point_ of this forum. And you
don't really need to be an expert. The physics involved are fairly
straight-forward.

I designed and built a rather nifty four product, cold plate-base draft system.
The system is "fed" by seven feet of 5/16" vinyl, and it feeds the faucets
through four feet of 3/16" tubing. The system requires 35 psig driving pressure
to balance it. The kegs remain at ambient temperature - roughly 60 deg F. THe
system topography - the way it all fits together - does not allow much room for
cutting out sections of hose to reduce the pressure drop. The best candidate is
the 3/16" hose, but I need every inch of it to reach the faucets. And, there
isn't enough of the 7/16" hose in the system to provide the desired reduction
in drop and still be functional.

I carbonate at 60 deg F at about 30 psig static pressure, ie I charge the keg,
and disconnect once a day until the keg accepts no more gas.

Ok. I hook up my perfectly carbonated kegs to 35 psig live pressure CO2 for
dispensing. The result is perfect flow from the faucet, and a glass of
over-carbonated beer. Driving with 80% CO2 20% N2 at 35 psig solves the
carbonation problem while providing the necessary driving pressure. (I can live
with the 2 psig error in apparent CO2 pressure).

This is the "why", Jerry. Yes, I agree that after doing the math, tweaking may
still be required, but any experience with this should be useful to others in
similar quandaries. Even a jockey-box (coil box) requires a certain level of
pressure to balance, and this pressure may be greater than desired for proper
carbonation.

And "expert" is defined as "one who is very skillful or well-informed in a
particular field". That's us, folks. All of us, to some extent, are expert in
our "field". Nowhere does it say "always right" or "god-like" or any of the
connotations we seem to apply to the term.

Not trying to flame Jerry, but it seems we are spending too much time looking
for what's wrong with a post lately instead of what's right (can't believe I'm
saying this...). The point being, and I've said this many times over, the fact
that you don't find it interesting or informative doesn't necessarily mean that
noone else does. And that there are at least as many different methods to do
beery things as there are to skin a cat.

See ya!
Pat Babcock
pbabcock at oeonline.com

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