---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  cornys/blue glass/carbonation/Royal Oak (Algis R Korzonas)
  Corny Keg and accessory sources (maxwell)
  How to Predict the Terminal Gravity ("Clark D. Ritchie")
  RIMS (Dan Gauss)
  N2 carbonation in stout (Shawn Bleet)
  HBD Survey (CASteveB)
  Don't change breakers (Al Stevens)
  stove element controller (old Fogy) (Al Stevens)
  grolsch bottles (Wallinger)
  Submission (Wayne Hocking)
  Are my yeast bad ? ("Braam Greyling")
  Re: cornys, fridges (hollen)
  carbonation effects on lagering ("Sharon A. Ritter")
  IR Technology in Brewing (malting) ("David Schleef")
  1st wort hopping/ftpmail (Rolland Everitt)
  First wort hopping and decoction mashes (Bob McCowan)
  Advice needed for teaching a beginning homebrew class ("Michael R. Swan")
  Water (A. J. deLange)
  time of lagering in secondary and bottles (Darren Tyson)
  Bass Ale clone (Jan Luttner)
  RE: Great Grandfather's Ancient Recipe (Eric Dreher)
  Regulators: two gauges better than one (FLATTER)
  multi-grain beer (Darin Gibson)
  Home brewery size (Art Steinmetz)
  Data Pt on Filtering/Copper ("Palmer.John")
  Witbier Recipe & Re: Stupid Tricks (Jay Reeves)
  #cells in clear beer, yeast mutations, 1st wort hops ("Tracy Aquilla")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 13:48:33 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: cornys/blue glass/carbonation/Royal Oak

Neal writes:
>If you really
>want ball-lock fittings, but find that pin-lock kegs store better, you can
>replace the fittings on those kegs with the ball-lock type - they have
>standard threads.

This is strictly a matter of luck.  *Externally* to the user, there are
only four types of connectors:

pin-lock gas, 
pin-lock liquid,
ball-lock gas, and
ball-lock liquid.

*Internally* (the diameter and thread of the fitting as it screws onto the
body of the keg over the dip tube), you have a different story.  There are
6 types (three gas-liquid pairs) of ball-lock "tank plug assemblys" (that's
what Foxx calls them) and 6 types (three gas-liquid pairs) of pin-lock
"tank plug assemblys."  There is only one pair that has common dimensions.

If you are lucky enough to have 9/16-18 threads on your tank then you can
buy the other (pin-lock or ball-lock) type of connector and it will fit.
If you have anything else, you are stuck with the type you have.

***
Ted writes:
>I have a few champagne style bottles that I was thinking of using to bottle
>my next ale.  The problem is that they are made of blue glass. Are these safe?
>Does anyone know if I have to be any more careful of my brew getting
>lightstruck than with brown bottles?

Before you started worrying about whether the glass will protect your beer,
I assume you have already checked that your capper can handle the bottles,
right?  Remember that many (primarily imported) Sparkling wine and Champagne
bottles take 29-mm caps and won't work with our standard 1" caps or cappers.
There are cappers that will handle the caps, but I've get to find a source
of the caps in the US.

Regarding the blue glass, no, it will no protect your beer as well as brown
glass, but brown glass is not 100% protection anyway.  If the caps fit, I
would go ahead and use the bottles, but just be *more* careful regarding
exposing them to light.

***
Gregg writes:
>but haven't 
>been able to get any decent head or carbonation on my brew

and
>he suggested "excessive amounts of serilant in bottles or storing at 
>excessively cool temperatures". I have been careful not to allow 
>either. I have needed to add corn sugar to the brew to get a head
>on it. 

There are a couple of other reasons you might have undercarbonated beer.
If you are boiling your bottlecaps you may be ruining their linings and
therefore not getting a good seal.  Your capper may be defective (I once
had a customer who could turn the caps after sealing them with a brand
new capper -- obviously I exchanged his capper for another one).  How
much corn sugar are you using?  Since you mentioned Charlie, I suspect
that you are using his method of boiling 3/4 cup of priming sugar in a
cup or two of water for a 5 gallon batch.  If you are using less than
3/4 cup then you may be getting less carbonation that you are used to.
If you are not boiling it in water, then you may be getting poor distribution
and some of the bottles will be overcarbonated -- check the other case.
If you had said that your beer had no head, but it had carbonation, then
the obvious problems would be either not enough malt, too much refined
sugar or a bacterial infection.  How strong is the beer?  If you made a
really strong beer, the yeast may not have the strength to carbonate it.
Finally, are you waiting long enough?  On standard-strength beers, you
should wait at least two weeks, but on stronger beers, it could take a
month or more.

***
Dan writes:
>With that said...I recently had a bottle of Royal Oak pale ale
>from Eldridge Pope.  Now, I'm not an experienced beer taster/judge
>but I do enjoy an oaky Chardonnay.  I thought I detected a hint
>of oak in this beer.  And that fact, together with the name....

The name comes from a tree that King Charles (don't recall which one)
hid in to escape from some revolutionaries that were busy overthrowing
the Monarchy.  I have tasted this beer and although I like it, I cannot
say that I recall an oaky character in it.  I would, however, like
to point out that Wyeast #1028 London Ale lends a slight woody note to
the beer.  You can get the Royal Oak yeast from the Yeast Culture Kit
Company -- it may be the yeast that is the source of this character.

Now that I think about it, there is an English beer that is aged in oak,
but most certainly this would be well-used, European oak and therefore
would not add much oak character at all.  I'm afraid I can't recall
which brewery it is that uses those oak secondaries.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 14:37:04 cdt
From: maxwell at prisminfo.com
Subject: Corny Keg and accessory sources

Someone was asking if a dual gauge regulator is better or not and the 
subject came up of costs and sources.  Let me tell you how I got my gear 
and what it costs...

I called a couple of restaurant supply stores in town that sell used 
equipment.  These guys carry everything from bar stools to spatula's and 
everything in between, both new and used.  Here I purchased:

1. Used ball lock Corny keg for $10.00 (lots o'yucky stuff in bottom)
2. Used dual regulator for $10.00 (in great shape)
3. One each in and out fitting for CO2 for $1.00 each

Next stop: Soft drink distributor.  Here I purchased:

1. 3' section of high pressure hose from reg to "in" fitting.  With the 
associated hardware.  $2.00 total cost.

Next stop: Home-brew store.  Here I purchased:

1. Party tap
2. ~5' of low pressure dispensing hose.  Total cost about $6.00

Last stop: Gas distributor.  Here I purchased:

1. Used CO2 tank, full.  ~$40.00


So for around $75.00 I'm setup to keg.

Tttthaaats alllll folks!


Maxwell McDaniel
maxwell at prisminfo.com
Houston, TX

Currently in secondary: Blue Whale Pale Ale from HopTech
Currently in Keg: Funky Bock (It's getting better!)
Brewing tonite: Brown Ale from HopTech
Current CD: Jimmy Buffett, Coconut Telegraph

No affiliation, blah blah


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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 15:08:45 -0800
From: "Clark D. Ritchie" <ritchie at ups.edu>
Subject: How to Predict the Terminal Gravity

Does anyone know a good way to predit a recipe's terminal gravity?  I
realize that there are a lot of variables involved (temperature, yeast
attenuation, ingredients, etc.), however there must be a good formula for
making a ballpark estimate.  I've searched all over and can't find one.  The
yeast FAQ has a lot of good stuff, but all of the equations require you to
know the FG.

Thanks... CDR
Clark D. Ritchie, ritchie at ups.edu


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Date: Sat, 9 Mar 96 17:09:00 -0500
From: Dan Gauss <dang at traveltron.com>
Subject: RIMS


Hello Fellow Home Brewers,

I am designing a RIMS system that will be sold to the home market.

In order to make a system that will appeal to the masses,  I=C9m asking the=
 =

masses for your help.

What features do you feel are vital and what features would you consider =

optional?  How much would you be willing to spend on your =C8Dream System=
=C9? =

 How much assembly are you willing to do?  Would you want it as a =C8Built =
In=C9 =

or portable unit?  How much =C8automation=C9 would you want?  How important=
 is =

scalability?  What do you feel would be the ideal initial capacity?  What =

kind of  accessories would you want to see?  Would you want a boiler and =

burner included?

All comments are welcome.

If you could reply via private e-mail with your comments, it would be much =

appreciated. (dang at traveltron.com)

I will post specs throughout the design stage of this project so that all =

can give feedback.

Thanks in advance for all comments.
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=
=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D
C=C9est la vie,  Say LAGER!
dang at traveltron.com

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 18:17:15 -0800 (PST)
From: Shawn Bleet <bleet at unixg.ubc.ca>
Subject: N2 carbonation in stout


I'm a stout fan who has recently aquired both kegging capabilities
and a brewing buddy who has access to nitrogen gas. Has anyone
out there experimented with nitrogen or read any resouces that 
discuss this topic? I'll let you know how my next stout turns out.

Return to table of contents


Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 22:14:34 -0500
From: CASteveB at aol.com
Subject: HBD Survey

Hello HBD collective,

I was reviewing the Winter '95 Zymurgy and remembered filling out the AHA
survey.  This, along with the recent "Mac User" related thread, started me
wondering if a survey has been done for the HBD. I think it would be very
interesting to see the composition of the HBD.

I am toying with the idea of taking on the challange.  However, I would like
to get some feedback on this before I start.  

Please respond with your thoughts, feelings, warnings, encouragement, or
 suggestions.  I will try summarize the responses and let you know my final
decision.

TIA for your input,
Steve

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Date: 12 Mar 96 22:17:43 EST
From: Al Stevens <72704.743 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Don't change breakers

			> There are probably some 20A circuits scattered around;
usually
> the wiring gauge is the same (but check with an electrician to be sure this
> is the case at YOUR house!), so it might be a simple matter of installing a
> 20A breaker in place of the 15A connected to your brewing area outlets. 

This is very SCARY advice !!  15A circuits are normally wired with 14 gauge wire
, stamped  14/2 and ARE NOT rated for 20A.
 20A circuits will use 12 gauge wire  which will be stamped 12/2 or 12/3 for
split phase (220 V).  Never arbitrarily change the size of a circuit breaker !
it is there to protect you !			

With so much good advice in the HBD, please be careful in area's outside your
expertise


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Date: 12 Mar 96 22:17:46 EST
From: Al Stevens <72704.743 at compuserve.com>
Subject: stove element controller (old Fogy)

			> After realizing how easy it is to slip one of the
coiled burners in and
> out of the stovetop for cleaning purposes, it dawned on me there
> must be a way to make a plug to fit into the same receptacle. This
> would give you access to a 220V line. In addition, you would have
> complete boiling control from the temperature controls on the front of the
> stove!

If you can easily slide the elements in and out, then the connectors on the
element probably look like two  eyes (as in hook and eyes). If this is the case,
you could put your heater element in place of your burner ONLY IF IT  IS THE
SAME WATTAGE OR LESS (yelling intended). Putting a bigger element in a circuit
designed for a smaller one is asking for trouble (damage to  your stove, fires
etc).  Get a length of 12 gauge wire (12/2) and strip about 3/4 inch at one end.
Make eyes in the wire the same size as the ones on your stove element. these
should slide into the element with no bare copper showing sticking out of the
connector. Connect the other end of the wire to the element on your boiler, and
there you have it. I would suggest trying this out with water first to get the
hang of the controls.

Good luck 

Al Stevens
Bennies Corners
Ontario


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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 21:11:13 -0600
From: Wallinger <wawa at datasync.com>
Subject: grolsch bottles

>And, as observed by many, you can always just buy
>the Grolsch, drink the beer, and keep the bottles!

one other option may be to hook up with a restaurant
or bar that serves grolsch and have them save the
bottles for you. we have a local german restaurant that
saves theirs and sells them for 25 cents each.

wade
pascagoula, mississippi


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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 1996 19:03:15 +0200
From: ruwh at lockmtn.dom.EG.net (Wayne Hocking)
Subject: Submission

I have been increasing the capacity of my grain 
brewing system, and have decided I need a pump to move 
around the hot liquids. I checked in Zymurgy and found 
that a company, Granier handles these pumps. My calls 
to them have not yielded a pump, as they do not have a 
retail group.

Does anyone know of a company who can supply a pump 
and tubing via mail order? 

Appreciate direct response, as I get the digest sent 
in bulk, and won't read todays for two months.

Thanks,


Wayne Hocking
ruwh at lockmtn.dom.eg.net

>From the shade of the Pyramids.



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Date:          Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:00:58 +200
From: "Braam Greyling" <ACG at knersus.nanoteq.co.za>
Subject:       Are my yeast bad ?

I recently brewed my first full grain batch. What a disaster ! 
I used WAY too much sparge water, so I threw this watery tasteless 
beer into my primary,pitched the yeast and started praying.
The beer I finally got tasted like a mich between ginger-beer and an 
ale !  Why could this be ?  Well I bottled the used yeast for later 
use anyway.
My problem is: I brewed last night an brown caramel ale and a stout 
and realized I dont have any other yeast left except the yeast I 
bottled the previous time. Can I still use it ? Please ! Will it make 
my Caramel ale an ginger ale ?!? I really do not hope so.
Thanks in advance
Braam Greyling           Design Engineer 
Nanoteq (Pty) Ltd        tel. +27 (12) 665-1338  
- ---- 24 hours in a day, 24 beers in a case ---- 
- ----     coincidence ?????                 ----

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Date: Tue, 12 Mar 96 07:09:59 PST
From: hollen at vigra.com
Subject: Re: cornys, fridges

>>>>> "Neal" == Neal Christensen <nealc at selway.umt.edu> writes:

Neal> re: ball-lock vs. pin-lock - If you really want ball-lock
Neal> fittings, but find that pin-lock kegs store better, you can
Neal> replace the fittings on those kegs with the ball-lock type -
Neal> they have standard threads.

Very wrong!  Pin lock and ball lock threads are not the same.  While
there may be a few pin lock kegs which are compatible with ball
threads, the majority are not.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x119       Email: hollen at vigra.com
Senior Software Engineer     Vigra, Inc.  San Diego, California

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Date: 12 Mar 96 23:20:01 EST
From: "Sharon A. Ritter" <102446.3717 at compuserve.com>
Subject: carbonation effects on lagering

Does carbonation have any effect on the lagering process?

A hypothetical case:  I have just brewed a German Pilsener. I'm planning
to lager the beer in a corny keg for 4-6 weeks at 34 degrees F.. During 
the final two weeks of lagering, can I hook up my CO2 tank to the keg 
and force carbonate while finishing the lagering? Or, is there some 
benefit to conducting the lagering phase while the beer is flat? I don't
force carbonate by the often used "keg shaking method" but prefer to 
hook up the gas to my refrigerated keg for about ten days.


        Dan Ritter in Grangeville, Idaho
        102446.3717 at compuserve.com   



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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:51:26 +0100
From: "David Schleef" <schleef at stud.agrar.tu-muenchen.de>
Subject: IR Technology in Brewing (malting)

 "In #1977 Tom Penn asked about applications for IR technology in
brewing. None come to mind."

There are actually several uses for IR technology in the brewing and
malting industry.  The most useful application is probably the
immediate measurement (30secs.) of total disolved nitorgen in beer
and in malt using either near infered transmission(IRT) or reflexion
(IRR) technology.  The traditonal method (Kjeldahl) takes almost 4 hours
and requires a serious ventilation and caustic setup..  It can also
be reliably used to determine extract and water conent (malt).  The
main advatges of IRT or IRR are the speed and convience (malt or
barley samples can be measured whole), whereas the disadvatges are
accuracy (eg. water content +-1%) and price (roughly $80000).

David Schleef
Weihenstephan
 



schleef at hali.edv.agrar.tu-muenchen.de




schleef at hali.edv.agrar.tu-muenchen.de

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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 07:05:31 -0500
From: af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov (Rolland Everitt)
Subject: 1st wort hopping/ftpmail



Since reviving the thread on first wort hopping about a week ago
I have become thoroughly confused by Jim Dipalma's posts in which
he seems to refer to sparge and boil as though they were the same
process.  What am I missing here?

Is first wort hopping nothing more than adding hops at the start
of the boil (something I have always done)?  Don't we all do that?
If so, then what's all the fuss?

Tracy Aquilla was kind enough to provide me with the numbers of
the HBD issues in which an earlier discussion of FWH appeared.
Thanks, Tracy, I am trying to get them, but I have no ftp access,
and as usual, ftpmail isn't working.  Has anyone ever had any
luck with ftpmail (as advertised at the beginning of every digest)?
I get a response from ftpmail saying that there are over 3,000
entries ahead of mine in the queue.  The number gets larger with
each request I send, and I conclude that it isn't working.  I
guess I'm just another road kill on the information superhighway.

Rolland Everitt
af509 at osfn.rhilinet.gov

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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:00:03 -0500
From: Bob McCowan <bob.mccowan at cfrp.varian.com>
Subject: First wort hopping and decoction mashes

Jim Dipalma mentions that Dave Draper says that many brewers boil for 15
minutes or so before adding hops.  This is to form the hot break, and
improves utilization, and is most effective for infusion mashes.

In a decoction mash, a lot of the hot-break proteins are left behind in the
mash tun, and the hops are typically added as soon as there is enough wort
to start a boil.  In my case first wort hopping consists of leaving the
flame off under the kettle during the sparge.  

By this argument, when decoction mashing you should subtract the first-wort
hopping from the bittering hops. When infusion mashing, however, you should
not subtract the first-wort hops ( or maybe prorate them) from  the
bittering hops.


Guy Mason asks about kegs and filtering:

I don't, and none of the homebrewers that I know filter their beer either.
Given some time most of the yeast will drop out on their own.  Some of the
brewpubs filter, but they often are serving beer within 2 weeks of brewing
it.  Freshness is good, but I find that the brewpubs that rush their beer
and filter it tend to have lackluster beers.  Maybe they're filtering out
too much, leaving the beer thin.  They're a business, and serving the beer
in 2 weeks rather than 4 allows them to run with half as many fermentors
($$) - not an issue for us homebrewers, to whom money is no object :)


Bob


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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 8:21:21 -30000
From: "Michael R. Swan" <mswan at fdic.gov>
Subject: Advice needed for teaching a beginning homebrew class

     I volunteered to teach a beginning homebrew class for
our local club.  Rather than have two or three sessions, I
am going to have one 2-3 hour session which will cover an
entire extract batch:  from boiling, to chilling, to aeration,
to (simulated) fermentation, to racking, to bottling, to
capping. (Thank you, Don Walworth, for this great idea).

     My major concern is what corners to cut and how to stream-
line my presentation.  For example, it should not be necessary
to boil the extract wort for a full hour---ten minutes should
be enough time to get the idea across.  But should I even
use extract--since the beer will never be fermented, shouldn't
I just use colored water?  And should I even boil the wort?---
if I do, I'll need to use a good amount of time to chill it before
I transfer it to the fermenter.

     As you can see, this is more complicated than it first
appears.  Has anyone out there ever taught a course like this? 
I would greatly appreciate *any* input on this project. Private
email is fine. TIA.

Mike Swan
North Texas Homebrewers Association
Dallas, Texas USA
mswan at fdic.gov (during the day)
goldswan at cyberramp.net (in the evenings)

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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:35:53 -0500
From: ajdel at interramp.com (A. J. deLange)
Subject: Water

Clark Ritchie had a couple of questions on water adjustment. He starts by
asking what happens if a certain amount of calcium carbonate is added to
water which is free of calcium and carbonates. Suppose 100 mg of chalk is
put into 1 L of water. The flask or bottle now contains 100mg/L CaCO3 (or
100 ppm) but it probably won't all dissolve. The water will be at a
distressingly high pH. To get it to dissolve and bring the pH to a
reasonable value acid must be added and, as those who have read my stuff
before know, I advocate the use of carbonic acid because this is the way in
which nature gets calcium carbonate into solution and the result is more
likely to approximate the overall balance of a natural water than if
another mineral acid is used. The reaction is

    CaCO3 + H2CO3 --> Ca++ + 2HCO3-

but there are other reactions going on as well so that the water actually
contains Ca++, HCO3-, CO3--, H+, OH- and H2CO3. The relative amounts of
these are controlled by the pH (H+ ion concentration). For pH values less
than 8 the amount of CO3-- present is less than 1% of the total carbonic
species and can thus be neglected. The number of H+ and OH- ions is small
and their difference smaller for the pH range of interest so they can be
neglected. This leaves Ca++ and HCO3- ions as the significant charge
carriers and as the water must be electrically neutral there must be twice
as many bicarbonate ions as calcium ions (calcium carries two positive
cahrges and bicarbonte 1 negative). To calculate the levels using the
example in Clark's post (1 gram chalk in 1 gallon water) start by finding
the amount of chalk per litre: 1000 mg/3.78 litre = 264.6 mg/L. Convert
this to millimoles per litre using the molecular weight of chalk which is
100 (does that give a clue as to why concentrations are often expressed "as
calcium carbonate"?): 264.6/100 = 2.646 mM/L. Each molecule of calcium
carbonate contains 1 atom of calcium and one carbonate ion so that one mole
of calcium carbonate contains one mole of each and we have, thus, 2.646 mM
of Ca++ released into the solution if enough CO2 is bubbled through it to
dissolve all the chalk. If the CO2 is bubbled until the pH reaches about 7
then there must be (2)(2.646) mM/L = 5.298 mM/L bicarbonate. 2.646 came
from the chalk and 2.646 came from carbonic acid. At pH 7 there is
additional carbonic acid in the amount of one quarter of the bicarbonate of
5.298/4 = 1.324 mM/L.
The 2.646 mM/L Ca++ can be reported in that way or the mM/L can be
multiplied by by the  mg/mM for calcium (40) to get (40)(2.646)= 105.8 mg/L
Ca or the 2.646 can be multipled by the mg/L for calcium carbonate (100) to
get 264.6 mg/L Ca as CaCO3 (which is what we started with). For bicarbonate
the molecular weight is 61 so that (5.298)(61) = 323.2 mg/L HCO3-.
Bicarbonate can also be expressed in terms of CaCO3 by multipling by 100.
This gives 529.8 mg/L HCO3- as calcium carbonate. Note that this is twice
the calcium level when it is expressed as calcium carbonate. All this boils
down to: for each mg/L calcium carbonate DISSOLVED with CO2, the resultant
bicarbonate level is 2 mg/L expressed as CaCO3 and .61 mg/L expressed as
bicarbonate. The 1.324 mM/L carbonic are usually expressed in terms of the
CO2 they carry by multiplying by 44, the molecular weight of CO2. This
gives 58.3 mg/L carbon dioxide as carbon dioxide or 132.4 mg/L as calcium
carbonate.

Hardness can be expressed in several ways but where "as calcium carbonate"
is used the hardness does increase 1 mg/L for each mg/L of calcium
carbonate you add. It is also increased by any other calcium salt (gypsum,
calcium chloride) or magnesium (Epsom) salt you add. The total hardness is:
    100*[(mg/L Calcium)/40 + (mg/L Magnesium)/24.31)]

A.J. deLange   Numquam in dubio, saepe in errore!
ajdel at interramp.com



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Date-Warning: Date header was inserted by SLUVCA.SLU.EDU
From: tysondr at SLUVCA.SLU.EDU (Darren Tyson)
Subject: time of lagering in secondary and bottles

Greetings brewing collective,

I'm curious of others' input on the maximum time of lagering in a secondary
fermentor.  My system is closed (with a bubble airlock) and has been at
55 to 60 deg F for about two months.  I'm planning on bottling this weekend,
but I'd like to hear opinions as to when to bottle a true lager.  Basically,
do _you_ lager in the secondary or in the bottle (or both).

Thanks in advance,

Darren         tysondr at sluvca.slu.edu

 -=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-=*#*=-
!  Darren Tyson, Grad Student | "I don't want to be killed  !
!  Cell and Molecular Biology |  because of a typo--that'd  !
!  Homebrew Sci-Fi Motorcyles |  be embarassing."           !
!  Comics Rugby St Louis Rams |  -Commander Susan Ivanova   !
!  Health Privacy and Liberty |              Babylon 5      !
!~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~!
!                  tysondr at sluvca.slu.edu                   !
!     http:\\www.lookup.com\homepages\70785\dirty_pg.htm    !
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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:11:10 -0500
From: Jan Luttner <jluttner at scoot.netis.com>
Subject: Bass Ale clone

Hello Homebrewers:

Been reading this newsgroup with much interest since last Fall and this 
is my first post.  It's amazing how many details exist in the world of 
brewing.  One of these days soon I'll better understand some of your 
posts.  I'm very new to brewing, only brewed my second batch last week.  
I've been using LME and DRE along with a grain "teabag" for my batches.  
I'm not quite ready to plunge into the all grain method (probably not 
even the partial mash method).

Can anyone tell me if there's a good recipe out there for a Bass Ale 
clone?  The Cats Meow 3 has three different recipes.  Have any of you 
tried one with any success or is there another one you might recommend 
that's worked well for you?

Thanks for any help.

	Jan Luttner


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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:24:50 -0600
From: Eric Dreher <drehere at mpd.tandem.com>
Subject: RE: Great Grandfather's Ancient Recipe 

I'm assuming that Klondike Ken's calculations are correct about
Sam Adam's Doppelbock claim.  It's too early in the morn for me to do
the math.  I also think that the 1/2 lb malt in every bottle is
probably a little more of marketing than truth as we would see it.

	According to my Encyclopedia of Beer (BTW I have found to be
a wonderful source of information.  Christine P. Rhodes, ED  1995)
Sam Adam's Triple Bock is the strongest lager beer in the world at
18.3 percent by volume (OG 39.5/1.168  FG 9.5)  

	My conclusion is that given the assumption of correct 
calculations, Mr. Koch is blowing a little smoke...

Eric Dreher

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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 09:27:45 -0500 (EST)
From: FLATTER at RoseVC.Rose-Hulman.Edu
Subject: Regulators: two gauges better than one

Algis Korzonas provided a very good response to the original question, but I'd
like to add a few more pieces of information.  The CGA [Compressed Gas Assoc.]
recommends check valves downstream of all regulators.  I don't know if their
advice has been incorporated into law; but the extra valve is such a
convenience in other applications, I always put one on.  They're also cheaper
to replace than a cylinder valve.

On the subject of two guages, be aware that two stages and two guages are
different concepts.  For many years we had people that assumed that a regulator
with two gauges was a two stage regulator.  Basically a two stage regulator is
two regulators where the output of the first is the input for the second.  They
are used where an even flow of gas is essential.  The bottom line for the home
beer lover is that this is wasted money.  Just another pitfall.

"Wouldn't it be nice if taxes came with a money back guarentee?"
Neil.Flatter at Rose-Hulman.Edu

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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 08:29:01 -0600 (CST)
From: Darin Gibson <darin_gibson at umanitoba.ca>
Subject: multi-grain beer

I have been making beer for a few years now, and I am up to about 2
batches per month.  I wanted to try making something totally different,
and have decided to make a beer with as many different types of 
cereal grains as possible.  So far I have:

1 kg light liquid barley malt extract
1 kg light liquid wheat malt extract
1 kg rice syrup
500 g flaked rye
500 g flaked maize

So now I have a few questions:

Is there some form of oats I could use?
How would one handle the flaked grains?
What hops would be appropriate?
Will this be swill or might it work out ok?


Darin


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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:02:20 -0500
From: asteinm at pipeline.com (Art Steinmetz)
Subject: Home brewery size

I have the singular luxury of designing my new home around my basement
brewery.  How big is big enough I wonder.  Since bigger is, of course,
better I'd like comments from those of you have have dedicated brewing
spaces with some kind of permanent brew system.  How big is your space?  Is
it big enough? 
 
As currently planned the room is about 200 sq. feet.  With counter space
and do-dads around the perimeter there is about 140 sq. ft. of floor space.
 I plan to have some kind of 3 vessel, 1/2bbl brewery, a couple of fridges
and slop sink. 
 
Thanks for any comments.

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Date: 13 Mar 1996 08:30:16 U
From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Subject: Data Pt on Filtering/Copper

Guy asked for opinions on filtering before kegging:

For the record, I allow all of my beers to fall bright in the secondary before
racking to the keg and force carbonating. For my ales, this is 2-3 weeks and
for the lagers, well by the time they are done lagering, they're clear. I have
almost no sediment in my kegs when the batch is done. 

So, for me and my beer, no filtering is needed. I dont see a need for finings
either. I may have a small amount of chill haze, but by and large, my beer is
clear. I remember Jim Busch commenting on his use of finings and planning on
using filtration. But Jim likes "Cask Conditioned Real Ale" which is consumed
only 2 wks or so after pitching. It really is a wholly different way of
producing and serving beer so fining and filtering are part of that
Style/Method. You see what I am saying? 

**
I have been meaning to thank AJ for posting his data on copper dissolution in
water and his beer. When Kelly responded to my post asking for hard data and
the reasons, I thought to myself, "Good Questions, I intuitively know why, but
I am not sure how to explain it, and dont have any measurements to illustrate
it."

And then AJ came along and saved me the trouble. Yea! So just to summarize:
Copper will have a different Ionization Constant for each solvent (water or
wort or beer), depending on the chemistry of the solvent. Distilled water which
has no metal ions in it will be vary aggressive to a metal until the
equilibrium contstant for that metals ions in solution is reached. As AJ
illustrated with his Brewing Water Synthesis posts last year, the solubility of
various salts ie. ions, is influenced by all of the ions present. My point in
my earlier post on copper vs Wort was that the chemistry of wort was not
usually aggressive to copper. And AJ was able to collaborate this.

John J. Palmer - Metallurgist for MDA-SSD M&P 
johnj at primenet.com  Huntington Beach, California
Palmer House Brewery and Smithy - www.primenet.com/~johnj/


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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 1996 10:43:58 -0600
From: jay at ro.com (Jay Reeves)
Subject: Witbier Recipe & Re: Stupid Tricks

I'm sure there are a lot of folks that want to see some
recipes posted - if you're one that doesn't, better
find the "Page Down" key quick.

With spring & summer just around the corner (for the
northern hemisphere anyway), this is a great refreshing
beer to drink lots of on a warm day, being moderate in
alcohol.  The name comes from the fact that several
fireflies (lightening bugs - Lampyridae family) magically
appeared in the mash.  This one won first place in the
2nd Annual Naked Pueblo Competition.

"FIREFLY WITBIER"

For 6.5 gal:

6lb Belgian Pils
4.6lb White Summer Wheat
9.6oz Flaked Oats
1.0oz 5.2% EK Goldings - 60min
0.5oz 5.2% Styrian Goldings - 10min
0.5oz 5.2% Styrian Goldings -  at knockout
0.5oz Curacao Orange Peel
0.5oz Sweet Orange Peel
2.0oz Coriander Seed
5ml Lactic Acid
Wyeast #3944 Belgian White Ale Yeast
Several Fireflies

OG: 1.051 - 12.5 Plato
FG: 1.016 - 4.0 Plato
Color SRM: 4
IBU: 20
Alcohol: 4.6 (v/v)

Mash & sparge your favorite way and don't forget the
fireflies.  Boil 10 minutes for break material then
60 minutes following the hop schedule.  Add 1/2 of
the orange peels and 1/2 the coriander 10min to
knockout and the remaining orange peels/coriander
5 minutes to knockout.  Chill & pitch.  Ferment  at  65F.
Mix 5ml of lactic acid to batch at bottling.

It takes about 3 months for this beer to come into
it's own: the lactic taste (sour) blended in real
well after that period.

BTW, Mike Hughes in Portland, OR posted in HBD1983
about a stupid brewers trick: I nominate him for Best
Brewing Story Of The Year Award (tm).  This one
brought me to tears, Mike!

                        -Jay Reeves
                        Huntsville, Alabama, USA


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Date: Wed, 13 Mar 96 12:15:20 CST
From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Subject: #cells in clear beer, yeast mutations, 1st wort hops

In Digest #1983:
Kyle R Roberson <roberson at beta.tricity.wsu.edu> wrote:
>What is the concentration in cells per ml of suspended yeast in
>beer that has dropped "bright"? 20,000-40,000?

Around 10E5 (or 100,000) cells/mL. I haven't counted myslef, I just recall
this number from somewhere (?).


and BOBKATPOND at aol.com wrote:
>
>>>Tam Thompson writes, ". . . You can usually re-use that slurry about three
>>>times before it starts to mutate too far into the unusable range. . . ."
>
>>Lorne Franklin writes,"I've read this assertion in many places
>>and am wondering if anyone can profile the flavor, bahvior, or appearance of 
>>"mutated" brewers yeast. I've never used yeast beyond the third generation, 
>>but am curious of the potential problems involved with "inbred" yeast.
>
>Many micros and brewpubs reuse their yeast for many generations and some use 
>the yeast forever.

This is true and exemplifies the fact that mutation is generally not a
problem with brewers' yeast. I remember reading somewhere that the Samuel
Smith's Brewery has been using the same culture for over 100 years!
 
>All brewers have their own methods of monitering their yeast. Some go by the 
>number of generations, others watch the performance of the yeast carefully 
>(such as how it flocculates and how the attenuation is ) and can tell 
>when things are different and then dump the yeast.

Performance in the brewery is probably the best way to monitor yeast
quality. Unfortunately, one can produce a bad batch of beer before noticing
that something has gone wrong.

>As a rule 3 generations are probably enough for homebrewers. We can't 
>possibly be as clean as a commercial setup, where they have heavy duty 
>caustics and acid sanitisers and boiling water to run through all of their
>equipment, so we are risking passing an infected yeast on to another batch.

Yeast does not suddenly mutate after three generations in the brewery. The
'3 generation rule' is arbitrary and basically makes little sense. I
consider it to be a paranoid, over-kill safety measure somebody just dreamed
up. Contamination from wild yeasts or bacteria is an entirely different
problem from the selection of a mutant brewing strain, and thus should be
handled as a separate problem.

>As far as mutations, it depends on the strain of yeast and how much you
>stress the yeast. High gravity beers stress the yeast and should not be
>repitched, some say dark beers also.

True, mutation rates are somewhat strain dependent, however "stress" doesn't
necessarily induce mutations and it's incorrect to assume that all mutants
will have greater fitness under a particular set of conditions and will thus
be selected. The vast majority of mutants won't dominate the population and
many are lethal, thus instantly self-destructing. While it's true that high
gravity worts stress the yeast, the main reason this yeast usually isn't
repitched is that high concentrations of alcohol weaken the yeast and one
should never start a fermentation with a weak culture.

>Lager yeasts are more prone than ale yeasts.
>Some Weissen yeasts change rapidly and lose that clove-like flavor.

Are you sure about this (both statements, particularly the first)? Can you
provide a reference please? (I'm a skeptic, sorry.) From what I understand,
most strains of brewers' yeast are quite stable genetically.


and Domenick Venezia <venezia at zgi.com> wrote:
>Perhap's Tam's use of the term "mutate" is unfortunate.  A true genetic
>mutation is probably rare.

Based solely on the size of the genome and the error rate of DNA polymerase,
there is probably at least one point mutation in every daughter cell!
Mutations are extremely common in nearly all species, however, most
mutations are neutral or 'silent', meaning they have no observable effect.
However, your point is well taken; problems developing from mutant yeast are
probably infrequent.

>What Tam is referring to is more appropriately termed "genetic drift".
[snip some theory]

Genetic drift can be defined in very simple terms. It's basically the same
as sampling error (a statistical term). The smaller a population is, the
larger the potential effect of genetic drift. For example, if you pick a
single colony from a plate, you've sampled a very small subset from the
larger population, thus altering the genotype of the subsequent population
through sampling error (i.e. by selecting an unrepresentative sample from
the population). Evolutionary biologists think of genetic drift and mutation
rates as the two main forces providing the raw material needed for natural
selection to do its thing (i.e. drive evolution). It's important to note
that genetic drift and natural selection are two entirely different concepts.

>When you choose that one perfect colony from a plate or slant you have selected
>for a particular genetic profile and have left a lot of genetic variability
>behind. A better technique for brewing is to sample multiple colonies or
           ^^^^^^
>resuspend all the yeast on a plate or slant and use everything.

This really depends on whether one is trying to develop a clone or to
maintain some level of diversity. I agree, however, if you want more
diversity, it would be better not to pick a single colony.

Getting back to the original question: >"wondering if anyone can profile the
flavor, behavior, or appearance of "mutated" brewers yeast."...
Two of the more common yeast mutations occuring in the brewhouse result in
the loss of the ability to ferment melibiose and the loss of floculation. In
the first case, one might observe higher than normal terminal gravities, in
the second, cloudiness from the suspended yeast. I don't think homebrewers
need to worry about mutations. Contamination is potentially a much bigger
problem when 'recycling' yeast cultures.


and dipalma at sky.com (Jim Dipalma) wrote:
>I'm hoping that collectively we can come up with enough empirical data points
>to formulate practical, rule-of-thumb procedures for homebrew size batches that
>we can all use.

I've done this with several recent batches now, basically following George's
recommendation to add 1/3 of the aroma hops to the kettle while filling it.
The improved aroma is unmistakable.

>Dave pointed out that many brewers boil the wort for 15-30 minutes before the
>first hop addition to allow the hot break to form, and thus any contribution of
>iso-alpha acids from the small amount of hops used for first wort hopping can
>be ignored, i.e., don't subtract out IBU contributions from the first wort
>hopping as I did.

I think that would really depend on the hops you're using. For example, in
George's posts he described using Columbus hops for first wort hopping. With
such a high alpha acid cultivar, I think the bittering contribution would be
quite significant indeed! However, since this method is generally seen as a
'Pilsener procedure', if you're using Saaz, it might not be so critical.

>Dave also mentioned that he has a first wort hopped pils at the end of
>primary, and a brown ale that just started fermentation.  He brewed these
>beers without subtracting out the IBU contributions, and has promised to post
>his results, so we'll have some useful data points in a few weeks time.

I've used the first wort hopping method in several recent beers so we should
have lots of data to analyze and discuss next month.
    Tracy in Vermont
    aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu


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