---

	FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
		Rob Gardner, Digest Janitor


Contents:
  Re: strange dregs (Jeff Renner)
  First Wort Hopping Questions (Todd Kirby)
  First all-grain batch (Neil Roberts)
  Extracts & Adjuncts Query (John McCauley)
  Re: getting started with all-grain (Mike Uchima)
  Aluminum Kettles (J0HN CHANG)
  Fill Level Experiment (Algis R Korzonas)
  aromatic Vienna and Steam/water treatment/2,3-pentanedione (Algis R Korzonas)
  event inquiry ("JASON SLOAN")
  English majors step right up... (Simonzip)
  Sorry for the wrong address(growing hops) (Douhan)
  First Wort Hopping. (Steve Alexander)
  data point for tartan underwear ("Goodale, Daniel CPT 4ID DISCOM")
  Re:Prohibition Revisited - not (The Fruit Fly Guy)
  Re: Advice on Cherry Beer (liquori) (Dave Riedel)
  Hop Cultivation (JIM ANDERSON)
  calories from alcohol (shelby & gary)
  Carbonation (Al Paglieri)
  Estimating Color (Scott Bukofsky)
  Re: straining trub/slow carbonation (Rosenzweig,Steve)
  Re: Reusing Yeast (John DeCarlo                       )
  Iron in Water ("Patrick E. Humphrey 708-937-3295")
  Sour Mashing (Michael Coen)
  Sam Adam's Triple Bock (Johan H\dggstr\vm)
  Re: canned cherries (Jeff Benjamin)
  Free Bottles (WOLFF)
  Strong Scotch Ale ("Roger A. Becker")



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----------------------------------------------------------------------


Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 09:59:44 -0500
From: Jeff Renner <nerenner at umich.edu>
Subject: Re: strange dregs

In HBD 1988, "Mark W. Wilson" <mwilson at ichips.intel.com> said:
>   
>     I recently bottled a Weizen, 10 days after pitching a
>   pre-started Wyeast 3056 (Bavarian wheat?).  (OG 1.064,
>   FG 1.019) about a 2:1 malt/wheat ratio. When washing out
>   my carboy, I noticed some lumps (total of about 2
>   tablespoons worth) that were too large to go down the
>   drain.  They were dark brown and rubbery, looked and
>   felt sort of like dense natural sponge.  Beer smells and
>   tastes ok (so far) Any idea what these blobs are?
>   Effects of autolysis maybe?  Or is this an occasional
>   side-effect of the strain (3056 is usually a little
>   chunky anyway, but I've never seen pieces this large and
>   this dark in previous batches)

It sounds to me like coagulated wheat protein (gluten) hot break that
made it over from the boiler.  Wheat protein is much more rubbery than
barley protein, which is why it makes higher rising bread - it stretches
rather than breaks and traps the evolved CO2 in the dough.  Last summer
a wit I made with 45% raw soft wheat had a hot break that looked like
dumplings!  Sounds like nothing to worry about.

Jeff Renner in Ann Arbor, Michigan c/o nerenner at umich.edu


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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:42:13 -0500 (EST)
From: Todd Kirby <mkirby at bgsm.edu>
Subject: First Wort Hopping Questions

First Wort Hopping sounds interesting. Just a couple questions:

1). Do you remove the hops before boiling or just leave them in.

2). If this is a substitue for late additions, does this mean that you 
should preferentially use aromatic hops over bittering for FWH? If so, 
what about question 1?

Todd

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 10:44:16 -0600
From: Neil Roberts <neil at wsnet.com>
Subject: First all-grain batch

I am about to embark on my first all-grain batch, and have converted two 
kegs for the purpose. I plan to make a 10-gallon batch (seems silly to 
do 5 gallons with all that capacity), but don't find many 10-gallon 
recipies. I know, all I have to do is double one, but I have had a 
terrible time deciding on a recipe to use. 

To the brewing collective: can y'all suggest a good, simple starting 
recipe for all-grain, 10 gallons bearing in mind that it needs to be 
simple to accomodate my rank amateur status. I would prefer to make an 
English-style ale, maybe something in the 1.045-1.055 starting gravity 
range.

Thanks for the advice!

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 12:57:16 -0500
From: John McCauley <johnm at his.com>
Subject: Extracts & Adjuncts Query

At 01:00 AM 3/18/96 -0700, you wrote:

From:  W_GLADDEN at Mail.Co.Chester.PA.US (Bill Gladden)
>Subject:  Extracts & Adjuncts Query
>
>
>>A common problem with extract brews is that the beer has no head
>>retention whatsoever so that the carbonation, while there,
>>escapes in huge bubbles in a couple of minutes.
>
>I'll be.  And here I thought my problem was unique.  Since it's
>common, I'll bite and toss this out to the collective.
>
>I have not yet found a good source of detailed information on
>adjuncts and suspect this is one avenue to pursue in the quest
>for more body and head retention in my extract brews. 

When I started using about 1-1.5 lbs of Laaglander brand DME in my
all-extract beers I suddenly got thick, persistent heads and great lacing on
the glass. I understand that Laaglander is full of dextrins and other
unfermentables. BTW, this is with force carbonation in a corny keg.
- --------------------------------------------------------------------
| John McCauley      | CTGi				703-352-0590	
| johnm at his.com      | Oakton, VA			


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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 13:39:36 -0600
From: uchima at fncrd8.fnal.gov (Mike Uchima)
Subject: Re: getting started with all-grain

flemingkr at market1.com (Kirk Fleming) said:
> In #1983 Keith advised brewers who have been intimidate by all-grain
> to 'just do it'.  I just had to butt in and second that advice. All
> I want to say is that there is so much pleasure to be gained from
> doing a beer from scratch, and so little to be lost by not doing it
> "perfectly", there is simply NO reason not to.  Well, there IS one
> more thing I want to say: 5 gallons is not a magic number and if you
> have been reluctant to do a grain-based batch due to equipment limits,
> then for heaven's sake do a smaller batch.  Try 3 gallons!

As someone who has recently done exactly as Kirk recommends, I'll third this
advice.

I've just started doing 3 gallon all-grain batches, and the additional
equipment required was minimal. I use my bottling bucket to hold the sparge
water, and a perforated pie tin to distribute the water over the grain bed.
The only new equipment I actually *purchased* was a Phil's Phalse Bottom and
an additional plastic bucket, to use as a lauter tun (total additional cost:
less than $20). Many suppliers will crush your grain for you, so you can put
off buying a grain mill.

All-grain sounds kind of scary at first, but it really doesn't have to be that
big a deal. I'm getting pretty decent extraction (hitting the OG of the
recipes almost dead-on), and while the mash is resting, you can do other
things (like bottle a previous batch).

I've bottled my first 2 all-grain batches (I did a pair of 3 gallon batches in
parallel). They've been in the bottles less than a week, so I really can't
comment on the final results yet; but both tasted pretty darn good at bottling
time. If the taste at bottling time is any indication, these two batches could
turn out to be some of the best beer I've made so far.

Sorry to be repetitive, but if you're thinking of getting into all-grain,
"just do it"!

- -- Mike Uchima
- -- uchima at fncrd8.fnal.gov

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Date: 19 Mar 96 14:53:31 EST
From: J0HN CHANG <75411.142 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Aluminum Kettles

I may be opening a can of worms on this one, but: 

Do any of you work with aluminum mash tuns/brew kettles?  Dave Miller in his
book suggests this is not a good practice because of the off flavors created.
Papazian's latest release says there is no problem with it.  I have a five
gallon restaurant grade aluminum stockpot, but am unsure of its effectiveness or
safety for use in brewing.  Private email welcome.

John Chang
75411.142 at compuserve.com or
john.chang at newhorizons.com


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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 13:55:42 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: Fill Level Experiment

Back in January, we had a discussion regarding the effect of fill level
on carbonation for batch-primed beers.  Last night I tasted the results
of my experiment.  The beer was an all-grain American Pale Ale and was
primed with 2/3 cup of corn sugar for the 4.5 gallons in the priming
carboy.  I filled bottles at four different levels:

HIGH: 1.6 cm headspace
NORMAL: 4.7 cm headspace
LOW: 6.6 cm headspace
VERY LOW: 8.7 cm headspace

I had my wife Karen randomly assign numbers to the bottles and the
glasses were labeled only with numbers.  I was in the basement while
she poured, so I could not hear the difference in "fffffft."  She
poured the same amount in all four glasses, down the side, in exactly
the same way.  The glases were all beer-clean and at the same temperature.
The beers were all at 55 degrees F.  The beer had been bottled on 1/26/96
and this test was done on 3/18/96.  The bottles were conditioning in a
dark room that was between 64 and 67 degrees F.

Here are my results:

* The HIGH fill beer had very slightly less carbonation than the rest.

* All the rest of the beers had no perceptable difference in carbonation.

Al.

Al Korzonas, Palos Hills, IL
korz at pubs.att.com
Copyright 1996 Al Korzonas

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 13:43:42 CST
From: korz at pubs.ih.att.com (Algis R Korzonas)
Subject: aromatic Vienna and Steam/water treatment/2,3-pentanedione

John writes:
>I put about an ounce plus of Styrian Goldings and
>Ultra in the Boiler as I collected my wort from my Mash/Lauter tun.

and

>Anyway, the beers turned out very good, and true to style.

Since when are Vienna and Steam beers supposed to have a significant
hop aroma and a Styrian/Ultra nose, at that?  If there is any hop
aroma in a Steam beer, it should be the woody/rustic US Northern
Brewer and not the resiny Styrian Golding or the spicy Ultra (which
have a lot of Saaz in their lineage).  Care to `splain this, John?  ;^).

***
Vid writes:
     I've brewed about four batches of ale and haven't been too impressed 
     with my results. All the brews have had a similar taste. Not BAD, mind 
     you, just not great. I've been told that I might expect that since I'm 
     brewing with extract. I suspected that the cause might be the RO 
     water. 
        My local homebrew store tells me that there is no use in trying to 
     treat the water because the DME should have all the attributes of the 
     water used to make the DME. Is there any truth to that, or could I 
     benefit from the use of gypsum and salts?

First, let's make sure that you are not doing one thing that will make all
your beers taste "similar" and "not great."  Make sure that you are not
aerating hot wort.  Yes, I know that Charlie Papazian says to pour the hot
wort through a sieve, but this will definitely cause hot side aeration.
What you should do is somehow cool the wort before aerating it.  Stick the
kettle in a sink full of icewater, freeze some water in some 2-liter PET
bottles and stick them into the wort, build a wort chiller... do something...
cool the wort before you aerate it.  The flavour you will get in your
finished beer if you aerate hot is sort of "sherry-like" (like Harvey's
Bristol Cream).

Next, are you using the same strain of yeast in each batch?  The yeast makes
a much bigger contribution to the final flavour than most brewers realize.
A variety of yeasts will give you a variety of flavours even if you use the
same extract and specialty grains.

Regarding water treatment... yes, you're right water can be a big factor in
differentiating between various styles.  Your store is wrong.  There is a
use and is is not a waste.  While it is true that the DME (or syrup) will
contain the minerals of the water used to make the extract, if you are
making something like an IPA, you really need a lot more sulfate in your
water than any extract manufacturer is going to be willing to put into the
package.  All you should really be concerned about are the sulfates and,
if you add dark grains, carbonates.  You should use the soft RO water for
some styles (like Pilsners) but you will want to add sulfates for styles
like IPA, Dortmunder, Vienna, and maybe some Scottish Ales.  If you are not
adding dark grains, then there is probably enough carbonate in your extract
to balance the acidity of the dark grains used to make the extract.  If you
do add more dark grains, you will want to add some calcium carbonate.

For a more detailed discussion of water, see  A.J. deLange's series in
the Hombrew Digest, the Zymurgy article on water in the Great Grains
Special Issue or the feature article in the issue of Zymurgy that has
"Beer from Water" on the cover.

Finally, excellent, prize-winning beers can be brewed from extract.  There
is nothing inherent to brewing from extract that prevents you from making
great beer.  It is important that the extract be fresh and of high-quality.
There are some crappy extracts out there and but most are good.  There are
some extracts that are good but not very fermentable (like Laaglander DME,
"Dutch" DME and "European" DME).  There are other brands that have been made
in such a way that virtually no proteins are left in them and, as AJ noted
recently, these would make a beer that would have very poor head retention.
I've had very good results with Munton & Fison, Alexander's and Cooper's
extracts.

***
Tom writes:
>>there is a Belgian beer that has a very prominent 2,3 pentanedione character
>>snip
>>my guess is La Chouffe.
> 
>Could be, but I don't think so.  I was at the Brasserie d'Achouffe last week
>and in talking with Kris Bouwaert, the owner, understood that they use only
>malted barley and candi sugar (light and dark).  We had a very comprehensive
>tour, and I didn't see any signs of honey containers.
<snip>

The rest of Tom's post implies that he knows very well that the yeast create
the 2,3-pentanedione and it has nothing to do with the addition of honey,
despite the fact that it does give the beer a honey-like aroma.

Tom also asks:
>What fermentation conditions favor 2,3 pentanedione formation over diacetyl?

I think it's the amino acids in the wort.  I can't remember which ones it
is, but I believe they are given in George Fix's Principles of Brewing
Science and in Malting and Brewing Science by Hough et. al.  So all you have
to do is call Sigma and buy some valine or lysine or whatever and... no,
just kidding, I don't think it's that simple, or is it?

Incidentally, there's only one "p" in Tripel (New Belgium Brewery's spelling
notwithstanding).

Al.

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Date:          Tue, 19 Mar 1996 15:36:36 CST
From: "JASON SLOAN" <JSLOAN at alum.uhs.edu>
Subject:       event inquiry

Hey!
My spring break starts on friday the 22nd and I was wondering if 
there were any (good) beer or brewing festivities going on in the 
country?  I'm planning on road-trippin from Kansas City to someplace, 
I just dont know where yet.  
  Any and all suggestions are appreciated!
Thanks,
Jason  

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:40:44 -0500
From: Simonzip at aol.com
Subject: English majors step right up...

This is a request for some brewing info. I'm working on a project, It does
fall outside of the usual technical discussions, but IS brewing related.
Please respond via private e-mail. 

I have a piece of software that will generate random gibberish text. The cool
thing is, if set up right, it will be grammatically correct and probably
quite hilarious. I need to enter into the program a bunch of words that fit
the basic styles of grammar: adjectives, adverbs, articles, conjunctions,
nouns, proper nouns, qualifiers and verbs. Since most of my waking thoughts
revolve around brewing, I want this program to generate brewing gibberish. If
you'd like to help me with this (and I hope someone does because grammar was
not one of my strong subjects) just e-mail me with a small list of brewing
related words and their proper grammatical category. 

After I get it together I'll generate some text and post it. It should be
pretty funny, if not right away, certainly after a brewing or bottling
session when there are a lot of empties laying around.

Thanks
Darrin
(The homebrews kicked the ugly magazines, then the rocks beat the grotesque
homebrews, after the rocks kicked the magazine, then the rocks quaffed the
magazines.)

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:06:11 -0800 (PST)
From: Douhan <gdouhan at wsunix.wsu.edu>
Subject: Sorry for the wrong address(growing hops)

	Sorry everybody who tried to view the page. The correct address is
http://www.oda.state.or.us/hop/extct104.html (I wrote in a e for a c)
You can also get to it through Glenn Tinseth's hop page: http://www.teleport.
com/~gtinsethindex.html
Greg Douhan
gdouhan at wsunix.wsu.edu


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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 19:23:12 -0500
From: Steve Alexander <stevea at clv.mcd.mot.com>
Subject: First Wort Hopping.

Tracy Aquilla wrote in HBD #1985

>>Dave pointed out that many brewers boil the wort for 15-30 minutes before the
>>first hop addition to allow the hot break to form, and thus any \
>>	contribution of 
>>iso-alpha acids from the small amount of hops used for first wort hopping can
>>be ignored, i.e., don't subtract out IBU contributions from the first wort
>>hopping as I did.
>
>I think that would really depend on the hops you're using. For example, in
>George's posts he described using Columbus hops for first wort hopping. With
>such a high alpha acid cultivar, I think the bittering contribution would be
>quite significant indeed! However, since this method is generally seen as a
>'Pilsener procedure', if you're using Saaz, it might not be so critical.

Tracy appears to be correct.  I recently brewed an ale based on
Columbus hops for both bittering and aroma (15.4% AA !! - these hops
actually FEEL gummy!!) and used FWH. The ale is currently in the
secondary.  The estimated IBUs using Glen Tinseth's calculation would
be 32.2 IBU ignoring the FWH and 45 IBU including them.  Upon tasting
it is clear that the FWH did contribute substantially to the bittering
and the upper figure is a better estimate (fortunately).  By
comparison w/ commercial beers I'd guesstimate a bit over 40IBU. I
suspect that the reduction in alpha acids due to hot break formation
is partial at best, and will depend upon the amount alpha acids and on
the amount of hot break - which will vary substantially with recipe &
mash methods.

I also have a decoction brewed pils which was FWHed and isn't quite
finished lagering. I doubt that I could accurately detect the (roughly
3 IBU) difference in bittering contribution w/o a side-by-side
comparison of FWH vs non-FWH.

>I've used the first wort hopping method in several recent beers so we should
>have lots of data to analyze and discuss next month.

Me too. More later.

Steve Alexander


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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 18:43:00 PST
From: "Goodale, Daniel CPT 4ID DISCOM" <GoodaleD at hood-03.army.mil>
Subject: data point for tartan underwear


Beings of the collective,

     I've been brewing for about a year now
and my learning curve has increased exponential
thanks to the HBD.  However, on the odd
occasion, the Biohazard Brewing Company will
have a less than perfect batch.  As far as I can
tell, I followed all the procedures to the "T."  Thanks
to the HBD I finally tracked down the problem.

Unlike my friend at the Butt Naked Brewing
Company, I always ware some old boxer shorts
while brewing to avoid the bleach sanitizing
solution and its effect on clothes.  Only with the
help of the HBD did I realize that  these
were causing "plaid-tosis" in my yeast.

Another mystery solved, but does anyone
know if you can revive plaid-shocked yeast
by burning the offending boxer shorts in
front of the carboy?

Daniel Goodale

The Biohazard Brewing Company
Sure its gonna kill ya, but who wants to live forever?

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 17:51:15 -0700 (MST)
From: The Fruit Fly Guy <woodstok at rupert.oscs.montana.edu>
Subject: Re:Prohibition Revisited - not

I just had to throw in my two bits on this.  

[snip]
>...Students with an "A" average consume 3.5 drink/week... students with 
>"D" and "F" grades consume 11 drinks/week on average.

First, I'm going to make the assumption (yes, it's a big one) that this 
was a study done based on willingness to answer and will always give 
a biased result.

Second, just because A and B happen at the same time doesn't mean that A 
causes B or vice versa.  

>Mr. So and So (sorry, i forgot your name) got and "A" average while 
>consuming more than 11 drinks per week... this must be propaganda in 
>the works.

Just because one person got and "A" average while drinking 
more than 11 alcoholic beverages doesn't mean that everyone else can or 
should - this is anecdotal(sp?) evidence.  

Third, this person/study doesn't mention whether or not these drinks are 
consumed all at once (binge drinkers) or throughout the week (casual 
drinking), which can make a difference.

Fourth, it's just an average - statistics can be used to say just about 
anything you want if you fiddle with the numbers enough (my own 
conservative POV).

Moral of the story - You don't need a study to tell you how much to drink 
each week to be a success... or to avoid failure.  Just go with what 
works for YOU.  Sorry for the anality of this, but i just hate it when 
people go jumping around making rash conclusions.  Take everything with a 
grain of salt, as the saying goes.

Dave

Life's a beer.
So brew it up...

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 16:58:53 -0800 (PST)
From: Dave Riedel <RIEDEL at ios.bc.ca>
Subject: Re: Advice on Cherry Beer (liquori)

>liquori at ACC.FAU.EDU (Kevin) writes:

>I am a novice brewer interested in creating a cherry flavored beer. I am 
>an extract/partial mash brewer and do not have the facilities for a lager 

>What I would like to know is if anyone has brewed this before? Is there a 
>better recipe out there? I am looking for a beer that is fairly sweet, is 
>this a good choice? Most importantly, does anyone have any experience 
>brewing with cherries (or other fruit) and hints on the process? I am an 

I haven't brewed Papazian's 'Cherries in the Snow', but I have made Miller's
'Fruit Ale' from Brewing The World's Great Beers.  In that recipe, you 
essentially make a wheat ale, with a neutral yeast, add fruit to the 
secondary and allow to ferment a further month before racking again to clear.  
In my case, that was about 6 pounds of raspberries (frozen overnight to break 
down the cell walls- they fell apart themselves).  The results were quite good. 
The colour and aroma is wonderful (in fact it's now 1.5 yrs old and the aroma 
is still strong).  My complaint is that the flavour is too dry.  The sweetness 
you are looking for may be difficult to achieve.  It is my understanding that
at least some Kriek beers are pasteurized and sweetened.  Without kegging and
forced carbonation, I am at a loss as to how to achieve such a result.  I've 
considered adding an unfermentable sugar (like lactose?)... any thoughts anyone?

Note: the batch mentioned was 5 gallons.  Mail me if you want me to send the
recipe.

Dave Riedel
Victoria, BC
Canada

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 96 07:09:00 -0500
From: jim.anderson at execnet.com (JIM ANDERSON)
Subject: Hop Cultivation


I'm hoping that someone can provide me with some leads for publications
on hop cultivation and processing.  I'll be starting some Perle and
Saaz next week, but I'm woefully ignorant.  I have zymurgy's special
issue on hops (Vol. 13, No. 4, Special 1990) which provides a few
tantalizing clues, but doesn't get down to specifics, e.g. water and
light requirements, etc.  Any leads toward *easily-accessible* sources
will be *greatly* appreciated!

 Prost!

  - Jim

(Hophead in search of his Holy Grail .... <g>)

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Date: Tue, 19 Mar 1996 00:23:27 -0500
From: shelby & gary <gjgibson at ioa.com>
Subject: calories from alcohol

There has been a recent discussion about the caloric value of the =
alcohol in beer.  I had a discussion with a professor I had at NCSU in a =
human nutrition class (Sarah Ash, PhD).  Here are some clips of the =
discussion.

ME
>My notes say that alcohol is basically treated like a drug and is, to =
the=20
best of the bodies ability, flushed out of the system.  This indicates =
to me=20
that the body does not use the calories which alcohol contains=20
>(7 kcals/g), instead it is bombarded by liver enzymes and water to =
detoxify=20
and is expelled from the body.=20

Dr. Ash
I think where the confusion comes in is with respect to the RATE of=20
consumption. When consumed at a "moderate" rate (i.e., one to two drinks =
per=20
hour, say), a greater fraction of the alcohol (though I am unable to =
tell=20
you how much precisely) IS seen by the body as a "nutrient", that is, a=20
potential energy source, yielding 7 kcal/g. There is some evidence, =
though=20
others have disputed it, suggesting that the body will utilize alcohol=20
calories BEFORE fat calories, thus "sparing" the fat calories for future =

storage as body fat.

However, as the rate of alcohol consumption increases, the liver=20
(specifically the enzyme alcohol dehygrogenase, among others) kicks in =
as=20
part of the body's defense against toxins. At this point, alcohol is no=20
longer providing calories, in fact it is REQUIRing calories for its=20
metabolism. There is also evidence that alcohol can increase metabolic =
rate,
 thus further muddying the calorie-counting waters, as you've indicated=20
yourself further down.

ME
> I will digress for a minute to say that this causes a lose of the B=20
complex vitamins and water in the body.  You get a hangover headache =
because=20
of the lack of glucose getting to the brain and you feel shaky or have =
low=20
energy because B vitamins are responsible for the metabolism of fats, =
carbos=20
and protein.

Dr. Ash
That's interesting, though I'm not so sure about the B vitamin part. The =
B=20
vitamin most related to alcoholism is thiamin, whose absorption is=20
signficantly decreased by ethanol. The alcoholic "shakes" are actually =
due=20
in part to a thiamin deficiency (beri beri)and public health officials =
at=20
one time considered "fortifying" fortified wines, like Thunderbird, with =

thiamin. I'd be surprised, however, if your average "casual" drinker was =

under-supplied with respect to thiamin or any of the other B vitamins=20
(especially since BEER is such a good source for many of them!!) ZINC is =
the=20
nutrient most associated with alcohol detoxification (alcohol =
dehydrogenase=20
is a zinc-dependent enzyme); in fact, it's been suggested that some of =
what=20
is seen in fetal alcohol syndrome is actually the result of zince =
deficiency=20
during fetal growth resulting from a diversion of maternal zinc to =
maintain=20
the enzyme's activity.=20

ME
>  People brewing at home do not have as bad a problem with this because =

their beer is unfiltered and contains yeast in suspension and as =
sediment=20
(yeast is high in B complex vitamins).

Dr. Ash
What I have heard about hangovers has more to do with the so-called=20
congeners in alcoholic beverages, though I'm not sure any one really =
knows=20
what causes them.

ME
>Back to the problem at hand.  Alcohol contains 7 kcals/g, but does the =
body=20
take up 7 kcals/g from the alcohol or does this figure come from the=20
chemistry lab.  Dietary fiber has 4 kcals/g if I am not mistaken, but =
these=20
calories are not absorbed by the body and used for energy.  Is it the=20
same for alcohol as well?  If this is not true and=20
the body does get calories from alcohol, is 7 kcals/g accurate.  Would =
the=20
energy the body uses to get rid of the alcohol, the heat given off by =
these=20
processes, or any other factors in these reactions be taken into=20
consideration when determining the calories the body gets from the =
actual=20
alcohol itself.  You said that the caloric equivalent of a six pack of =
beer=20
would be 10 slices of bread.  Until shown otherwise, I will assume that=20
these calories come from the grain extractions, the left over sugars, =
and=20
other additives, but not from the actual alcohol itself.

Dr. Ash
You are right to remember that there are more than just alcohol calories =
in=20
beer (as well as wine). Beer guts aside, I can tell you that studies =
have=20
failed to show differences in body weights between drinkers and=20
non-drinkers. So maybe, in the end, it's all a moot point. It is, like=20
coffee and caffeine, a very difficult area to study because few people=20
consume JUST alcohol -- how do you separate all the other factors (not =
the=20
least of which are differences in personality types between different =
types=20
of drinkers !!)


I hope that this can help all the people that inquired on the subject.
Russell, our skepticism yielded positive results on our part.  I cannot =
get the exact proportions of how much alcohol is used by the body as a =
calorie source because no one knows exactly.  These values would be =
different from person to person anyway.=20

Shelby
Asheville, NC

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 07:27:59 -0500 (EST)
From: Al Paglieri <bq359 at freenet.toronto.on.ca>
Subject: Carbonation

> 
> Date:        Mon, 18 Mar 1996 13:23:11 EST
> From: "FINLEY, BARRY CURTIS" <BFINLEY at MUSIC.CC.UGA.EDU>
> Subject: carbonation process
> 
> I have just bottled my first batch of homebrew last week.
> How long does it take for the brew to carbonate?  Are there any signs
> that ensure that proper carbonation is occuring? When I bottled, the
> pale ale smelled wonderful and I can't wait to find out how everything
> is going to turn out.

If you primed with dextrose it should take about a week or two at room 
temps.  You should begin to see some sediment in the bottom of the 
bottle.  What I do is crack one open every once in a while to "see" how 
its coming along. 

Cheers,
Al.

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:09:31 -0500
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>

Subject: RE: Stovetop steeper and head retention

Hi all, Bill Gladden writes:
>I have not yet found a good source of detailed information on
>adjuncts and suspect this is one avenue to pursue in the quest
>for more body and head retention in my extract brews.
>
>Currently I'm a stovetop steeper and a firm believer in holding
>crystal malt at target temp for 30 min. v. the remove when it
>starts to boil method.  While this certainly has added a fresher
>taste to the beer and a little more body, head retention is still
>pitiful.
>
>Any leads on good adjunct info. sources or suggestions on other
>ways to enhance head retention in extract brewing would be
>appreciated.

I have been a extract/stovetop steeper for some time and if I want 
better head retention I always include 1# of wheat malt DME in my
fermentables list.  Lately I have been moving towards partial mashing
in order to have a greater degree of control in malt flavors and original
S.G. .


Chris Cooper , Commerce Michigan    --> Pine Haven Brewery <--
ccooper at a2607.cc.msr.hp.com         --> aka. Deb's Kitchen <--
 


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:20:31 -0500 (EST)
From: Scott Bukofsky <scott.bukofsky at yale.edu>
Subject: Estimating Color

Now that I am doing some mashing, I am wondering if there is some easy 
method of estimating the final color of the beer.  I am guessing that by 
knowing the Lovibond ratings of the various grains involved, you can 
guess the final color.  Is there a simple way to calculate this?  More 
importantly, is there a reference somewhere that has commercial beers and 
their color, so that I know what a particular number really means?

Thanx,
Scott 

New Haven, CT

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 10:10:38 -0500
From: Chris Cooper <ccooper at a2607cc.msr.hp.com>

Subject: RE: 1-800-SWIG-BUD,immerson chiller,priming with DME

Hi all,
Bob Wilcox asks about using DME for priming, your quantity of 1.25 cups of DME
sounds correct (for a 5 gallon batch) and 68-70^F is suitable for bottle
conditioning an ale.  Three weeks is a minimum for DME priming, wait a couple
more weeks, if the yeast count is very low from the gelatin finning it can
slow down the process but it should still carbonate with time.  Another
tip is to raise the storage temp into the low to mid 70's for a week of so.

Jim Mirsky asked about the best diameter copper tubing for a homemade 
immersion cooler, 3/8" or 5/16" are generally used since they can be
easily formed in the home shop and provide a decent amount of surface area
in proportion to their flow capacity.  As a hint try forming the coil around
a paint can or other suitable object.  The length should be long enough to 
provide the maximum heat exchange area but not so long that the coil extends
above the liquid level in you brew pot.

(NOTICE: This is a joke, it is only a joke.  Should this have been a
serious comment you would have been advised to pay serious attention!)
Just a quick question for Pat Babcock, how much did that SWIG-BUD  800 line
cost ya?  Should be an outstanding succes, especially if you concentrate
your advertising on this forum! 

Chris Cooper , Commerce Michigan    --> Pine Haven Brewery <--
ccooper at a2607.cc.msr.hp.com         --> aka. Deb's Kitchen <--
 


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 06:01:44 PST
From: Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com (Rosenzweig,Steve)
Subject: Re: straining trub/slow carbonation

David Whitwell brought up straining trub from wort in HBD 1988.

I also use a concentrated wort method, but never strain out the trub 
 from the wort prior to transferrring to the secondary.  I just pass 
 the trub on in the wort to the primary fermentor - what do I know?  
 Maybe the yeasties _like_ it there!  When I rack to the secondary the 
 trub will either be left at the bottom, or spooged around the neck of 
 the primary due to blowoff.  If you are careful when you siphon, 
 little to no trub will make it to your secondary.  

I have read of people that allow the whole wort to sit awhile to settle 
 out, and then transfer to the primary prior to pitching the yeast.  
 But, while providing some aeration, this seems like one too many steps 
 for me to worry about!

One thing to keep in mind though, is the lost volume due to the trub.  
 If you meticulously follow the measurements of a 5 gallon recipe - 
 chance are you'll end up with less than 5 gallons at bottling time.  I 
 use a 6.5 gal primary for this reason - putting nearly 6 gal of wort 
 into the primary - then when I transfer to the 5 gal secondary I have 
 5 gal!  You might want to adjust your recipe slightly for the 
 increased volume (add some DME, hops) if you are a real stickler for 
 recipe/style guidelines.  (Style - what style?  This is a _drinkin_ beer!  8*)

***********************************************

Bob Wilcox wanted to know about carbonation rates using DME in HBD 1989.

One thing to watch when priming with DME (and I assume gyle as well) is that 
it will take _much_ longer to carbonate than with corn sugar, so plan 
 accordingly.  I remember the reason being that at that stage the yeast 
 can more easily consume the corn 
sugar than more malt.  Also, for you all-malt enthusiasts, such a 
 relatively small amount shouldn't give perceptible off flavors.

Sorry for the anecdotal evidence without reference, I don't want to 
 step on anyone toes!  If anyone remembers the proper reference, feel 
 free to correct me!

I made a lager (Cat's Meow 3 - Red Hickory Lager) that I bottled on 
 1/27 with about 1.5 cup DME and have kept at room temp (70F) since.  
 As of last  saturday - about 7 weeks in the bottles - there is just 
 starting to be some carbonation.  Once, if ever, it fully carbonates, 
 it may be my best batch ever, of a light lager style.  I did split the 
 batch - some were kept in the basement - and they have significantly 
 less carbonation (the old pffffft test again 8) . . . so I think it 
 may turn out ok in the end.  As a comparison point - a cream ale I 
 bottled 2 weeks ago and primed with corn sugar is already more 
 carbonated than the lager!

One method that I use to test the carbonation level is to bottle 4-5 
 smaller 7 oz bottles (OV splits) as samplers.  Then when I inevitably 
 get itchy and want to test after less than a week, I can without 
 wasting a whole beer.  Usually I'll sample at one week intervals - and 
 heck - if I've been on a brewing/bottling binge, I can have up to 4-5 
 different samplers ready for testing at a time!

**********************************

Thanks to all on HDB - it really is a wonderful resource!!

Stephen Rosenzweig
Steve_Rosenzweig at wb.xerox.com

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 09:12:25 EST
From: John DeCarlo <jdecarlo at burp.org>
Subject:  Re: Reusing Yeast

One small issue I have heard about from a couple of microbreweries that 
continue reusing their yeast for hundreds of continuous batches. 
Determining what point they harvest the yeast for the next batch.  One 
brewer told me they had problems reusing until they figured out the best 
point in the process to harvest the yeast (I think they started by dumping 
the next batch on the dregs of the first, and moved to harvesting large 
quantities early in the primary fermentation process, but don't quote me.)

I suspect that all the talk about mutations, adaptations, etc. are all going
to be influenced somewhat by what the yeast have been doing recently and 
their current environment.  Of course, this is obvious, but so is much of 
what I say <grin>.

John DeCarlo, My views are my own
Fidonet:  1:109/131  Internet:  jdecarlo at burp.org


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:46:00 -0600 (CST)
From: "Patrick E. Humphrey 708-937-3295" <HUMPHREY.PATRICK at igate.pprd.abbott.com>
Subject: Iron in Water

Hi,

I have enjoyed the recent postings on water mineral characteristics and 
hope they continue.  I do have a question about iron in brewing water.  

Our water comes from a city well.  I haven't had my water tested for 
mineral levels but I know that it has a higher level of iron than normal.  
As an example, about three months ago I purchased a small white plastic 
humidifier and it already is orange from rust stains.  How will this rust 
affect the taste of my beer?

Many have written about using whole house filters to remove other ions but 
none of them have mentioned anything about iron.  I do have a water 
softener installed in the house but it doesn't seem to make a difference 
with rust stains, especially on the shower curtain.

Any comments are appreciated,

Thanks,

Pat


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 08:18:00 -0600 (CST)
From: Michael Coen <COEN.MICHAEL at igate.pprd.abbott.com>
Subject: Sour Mashing

Thanks to all who responded to my yeast inquirey. I am new to this forum
and understand that recipes are not looked favorably upon but I received
so many responses that I thought I would post this sour mashing
technique for anyone interested.  This technique will add a zing to any
dry stout recipe. This technique is basically what Papazian writes in
his second edition.  In the first, he writes to sour a whole batch but
this can result in 5 gallons of very sour brew.......which can be
blended with another batch when drinking to achieve the same goal.  This
technique and recipe is not a Guinness but then again if it were that
easy they wouldn't be the best.

First, make a small amount of wort with a sg = 1.070-1.080.  Last time I
did this I mashed in 2.1 quarts of water: 1.2 lbs. 2-Row Malt, 0.07 lb.
40L Crystal Malt, 0.07 lb. Cara-Pils, 0.11 lb. Roasted Barley, and 0.036
lb. Black Patent: at 120F for 20 minutes, 152F for 60 minutes, and 170F
for 5 minutes.  I then sparged through a kitchen strainer and collected
about0.75 gallon which was boiled with about 0.5 oz. Golding hops.  This
was cooled and a healthy yeast 100 ml yeast starter cultuer added and
fermented for a couple of days down to SG=1.025.  Then I racked this off
the trub, added a handful of 2-Row Malt and aerated very very well and
let this sour to completion at 70-75F.  The final SG was 1.000.  I
pasteurized this at 170F for 30 minutes, cooled and bottled about 4 12
oz. bottles which serves as my stock.  I carefully open a bottled and
add 3-5% (10-15 ml) to each bottle of a regular stout recipe.  I have
heard of people using yogurt culture for souring of if you are a good
microbiologist can use lactobacillus and acetobacter cultures.  I am and
I don't.....easier to throw in a little grain.  Here is a recipe that
I've tried for a regular Irish Dry Stout....... mind you this is an
extra stout because the gravity is over 1.050.......
7.25 lbs. British 2-Row Malt, 1.0 lb. American 2-Row Malt, 0.5 lb. 40L
Crystal Malt, 0.5 lb. Cara-Pils, 1.1 lb. Roasted Barley, 1.5 lb. Flaked
Barley, 0.75 oz. Northern Brewer hops 70 minutes, 1 oz. Golding hops 70
minutes (a total of about 50 IBU) , irish moss 20 minutes, gypsum
according to your water.  I mash at 98F for 20 minutes, 122F for 20-30
minutes, 155F for 60-70 minutes, and 170F for 5 minutes.  I sparge with
about 6 gallons of 170-180F water.  Boil with hops as indicated, force
cool, pitch yeast, and ferment: 5-7 days primary and 10-20 days
secondary.  Bottle with 0.67 cup corn sugar per 5 gallons and add some
of the soured mash brew at 3-4%......this is nice because one can tweek
the amount to achieve the desired amount of acidity.  I use the Sierra
Nevada yeast strain because it is cleaner. I tried the Irish Ale starin
but didn't like the higher fusel alcohols I was getting while fermenting
at 64F...... I've been meening to play with this yeast a little more.
Like I said its not a Guinness but something I am very proud to serve.
Hope this helps many of you out..........kick back and have a homebrew
and remember to experiment and keep good notes and if it tastes good to
you that's all that matters.........



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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 16:32:52 +0100
From: johan.haggstrom at ped.gu.se dv (Johan H\dggstr\vm)
Subject: Sam Adam's Triple Bock

Eric Dreher mentions SA Triple (HBD #1985)

>	According to my Encyclopedia of Beer (BTW I have found to be
>a wonderful source of information.  Christine P. Rhodes, ED  1995)
>Sam Adam's Triple Bock is the strongest lager beer in the world at
>18.3 percent by volume (OG 39.5/1.168  FG 9.5)  

How do they get this high alcohol content?
What yeast is used? How is it handled? Anyone..

Johan Haggstrom 


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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 96 9:20:40 MST
From: Jeff Benjamin <benji at hpfcbug.fc.hp.com>
Subject: Re: canned cherries

Lee A. Kirkpatrick wrote:
> ...and substituting 5 lb of canned, pitted tart cherries in water 
> (no sugar or syrup).

I think it's the type of cherries causing the lack of flavor, not the fact
that they were canned.

I have made a number of brews using fresh cherries, both tart pie
cherries and bing cherries.  The tart cherries simply don't add a whole
lot of rich cherry character to a beer.  I found that eating cherries
like bings work much better for imparting "cherry-ness" to the brew.  If
you still want that tartness, you can use about 40% pie cherries.  You'll
still want the remainder to be sweeter eating cherries, though, to get
a good cherry aroma and taste.

- --
Jeff Benjamin                      benji at fc.hp.com
Hewlett Packard Co.         Fort Collins, Colorado	
"Think!  It ain't illegal yet."  -- George Clinton

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Date: Wed, 20 Mar 1996 11:22:10 -0500 (EST)
From: WOLFF%eclus.DNET at tron.bwi.wec.com
Subject: Free Bottles

If anyone would like some 22oz Rolling Rock bottles for free  please
e-mail me for more details on pick-up.  I live in the Balto.-Wash area
(Ellicott City) and have quite a few bottles in excellent condition.
Bob Wolff
wolff at eclus.bwi.wec.com
410-765-3098 Work

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Date: 20 Mar 96 11:28:23 EST
From: "Roger A. Becker" <102425.3003 at compuserve.com>
Subject: Strong Scotch Ale

Hello out there.  Since joining the HBD, not so long ago, I have been inspired
to make two partial-mash batches (with great success), having previously been a
determined, extract (with crushed grains for flavor etc)  brewer only, mostly
due to time constraints.  You folks have been very helpful to me so far, in
answering my questions posted to the group, and so I am seeking information
again.  

Would anyone be willing to share with me their favorite partial-mash recipe for
a Strong Scotch Ale.  My all-extract brews have been well received by all, but
would like to experiment with a partial-mash.

Secondly, could anyone who has more patience than I, relate to me how to access
a partial-mash list of recipes from the Cat's Meow.  None of the queeries I have
tried have been successful, and as I have to pay for telephone service to access
the Internet, I give up before really getting much done.

Thanks and private E-Mail is great.

Rog  


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