---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Re: Wort Chilling (Aaron Sepanski)
  Re: Hop vines belated (Aaron Sepanski)
  grolsch recipe (David Dow)
  removing chlorine (Nate Apkon)
  RE: crystal malt, spent grain, protein rest, big beers (HOMEBRE973 at aol.com)
  Dogs and hops (lsweeney at HiWAAY.net (Bob Sweeney))
  RE(3): Am I the only one? (ritchie at wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie))
  Highly Modified Protein Diet (Charlie)
  Have I ruined Scott Dornseif's Pale Ale? (Scott Abene)
  Re: Clorine Dioxide (hollen at vigra.com)
  Re: Kosher Beer ("Daniel Hertz")
  When beer is beer? (lmatt)
  Vacuum Packers ("Sharon A. Ritter")

NOTE NEW HOMEBREW ADDRESSES
  homebrew at aob.org                (SUBMISSIONS only)
  homebrew-digest-request@ aob.org (for REQUESTS only)

Send articles for __publication_only__ to homebrew at aob.org
  (Articles are published in the order they are received.)
Send UNSUBSCRIBE and all other requests, ie, address change, etc.,
  to homebrew-digest-request@ aob.org, BUT PLEASE NOTE that if
  you subscribed via BEER-L NET, you must unsubscribe by sending a
  one line e-mail to listserv at ua1vm.ua.edu that says: UNSUB BEER-L
This list service is now being provided by majordomo at aob.org, so some
  of the commands may have changed.  For technical problems send
  e-mail to the Digest Janitor, shawn at aob.org.
If your account is being deleted, please be courteous and unsubscribe first.

ARCHIVES & OTHER INFORMATION

Please don't send me requests for back issues - you will be silently ignored.
For "Cat's Meow" information, send mail to lutzen at alpha.rollanet.org or visit
http://alpha.rollanet.org on the Web.  Othere information is available by
e-mail from info at aob.org and on the AHA's web site at http://www.aob.org/aob.
ARCHIVES:
  An archive of previous issues of this digest, as well as other beer
  related information can be accessed via anonymous ftp at ftp.stanford.edu.
  Use ftp to log in as anonymous and give your full e-mail address as the
  password, look under the directory /pub/clubs/homebrew/beer directory.
  AFS users can find it at /afs/ir.stanford.edu/ftp/pub/clubs/homebrew/beer.
  If you do not have ftp capability you may access the files via e-mail
  using the ftpmail service at gatekeeper.dec.com.  For information about
  this service, send an e-mail message to ftpmail at gatekeeper.dec.com with
  the word "help" (without the quotes) in the body of the message.  Some
  archives are available via majordomo at aob.org.


----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Aaron Sepanski <sepanska at it.uwp.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 22:53:38 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Wort Chilling

I was wondering....   I never use a wort chiller.  I usually put my wort 
directly into the fermentation tank (carboy)  top it up with water, then 
set it in the bath tub.  It usually takes about three hours to cool to 
about 85-95 degrees F.   At this time I rack off the trub, and then pitch 
in my yeast.  This gives me a pretty short lag time.  What risk am I 
actually running.  I've only done it the last 4 or 5 batches with no 
problems.  Any opinions?

- ------------------------------

Return to table of contents


From: Aaron Sepanski <sepanska at it.uwp.edu>
Date: Sat, 8 Jun 1996 23:05:55 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: Re: Hop vines belated

I have never tried to grow hop vines, but from what i know about plants, 
you should be able to save you vine.  If it is like other plants, what 
you have cut off is the growing region (called the apical meristem) that 
contains hormones (called auxins).  These hormones are the same as the 
hormones that promote groth in the roots (rhizomes).  So you masy want to 
try getting some of these hormones at the local plant store.  The 
commercial name that i know of off hand is root tone.  You just dip the 
tip of the plant in the solution for about a minute a you should see 
progrees fairly quicky.  You won't ruin your vine since auxins are 
natural to the plant.  Another thing that might help is pinching a 
portion of the stem off instead of cutting.  This will help the plant 
heal its conduction (circulatory) system quicker.

Sorry it took so long for a reply but i've been to busy to read HBD

- ------------------------------

Return to table of contents


From: David Dow <dl4kd at acadia.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 01:00:45 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: grolsch recipe

Hey yawl,
I'm looking for a recipe for Grolsch beer.
I think that I saw one on the net one day, but
for the life of me I don't remember where:-(
Please let me know if anyone's got one. It doesn't
matter if it's all-grain or what; I've some thirsty
friends who want some!

Tanx.
So long and thanks for the fish!
dinky dave


Return to table of contents


From: Nate Apkon <nmapkon at sprynet.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 09:33:44 -0700
Subject: removing chlorine

My town recently significantly increased the chlorination rate of 
domestic water.

I'm concerned with chlorophenols, etc. in my brew.

Miller says that much of the chlorine can be removed by boiling the 
water.

As an all-grain brewer...must I pre-boil my strike & sparge water to 
remove the chlorine, or can I rely on my "full" boil to remove it, 
without inducing off-flavors?

TIA

Nate

Return to table of contents


From: HOMEBRE973 at aol.com
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 10:51:39 -0400
Subject: RE: crystal malt, spent grain, protein rest, big beers

Well I thought I'd respond to some of the recent posts I thing a know
something about:

Bill Press asks about using crystal malts in the mash.  This question has
come up several times as I have asked the same question a year or two ago.
 Apparently, the crystal malts have been mashed to their limit dextrins
already, so the amylases present in the mash will not further degrade them
(although I still get a positive starch test with them!).  Also, according to
George Fix, the protein in the beer appears to be more responsible for mouth
feel than the dextrins though the dextrins contribute to perceived sweetness.
 (George- I hope I paraphrased you correctly!)

Prichard asked about the effect of protein rests on highly modified grain.
 My understanding of this is that you can degrade the proteins too much and
head retention and mouth feel may suffer.

Perillo asked about spent grain uses--besides roasting them for use in bread,
they add a lot to your mulch pile.

And I must agree with Tracy Aquilla that big beers do best in contests.  In
most contests subtly does not score highly.  This is only logical if you have
to tast up to 10 beers, your taste and smell sensors get saturated quite
quickly.  If a subtle beer is not the first or second one tasted, you are in
trouble.  I also have noticed that many (not all) homebrewers are either hop
heads or love big malty beers.  I've been in may pubs in many countries, and
if the beers at the pubs are actually to-style, the ones most homebrewers
make are usually (not always) overhopped or over big! 

Andy Kligerman
Hillborough, NC

Return to table of contents


From: lsweeney at HiWAAY.net (Bob Sweeney)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 10:29:12 -0600
Subject: Dogs and hops

I would like to add a sobering data point to Keith Royster's warning
about feeding hops to dogs.  My chocolate labrador, Bridgett, ate some
spent hops, Cascades I believe, and starting having convulsions so severe
she could not stand up.  I note for the record that carrying a convulsing 75
pound lab is one of life's least rewarding experiences.  Anyway, after 
performing emergency procedures including the forcing of charcol down her 
throat
with a funnel (that only took five vets) and spending a week at the animal
hospital I got my dog back.  For $500.  The head of the veterinary team that
worked on her said that hop poisioning appears to cause symptoms which are
very close to those caused by anti-freeze (ethelyne glycol?) and they were
mildly surprized that Bridgett pulled through.

- -- 
Bob Sweeney 
home--lsweeney at HiWAAY.net
office--bsweeney at unanov.una.edu

[insert pithy quote here]

Return to table of contents


From: ritchie at wnstar.com (Clark D. Ritchie)
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 09:40:01 +0100
Subject: RE(3): Am I the only one?

Gary McCarthy, gmccarthy at sisna.com writes in HBD 2064:

>Now shut the hell up about your pain in getting the HBD delivered to you
>and get off your a**es and get it for yourself.  Nobody on the internet is
>your mother!
Chill out, Gary.  Can't you take a bit of sarcasm?  Relax... CDR
<--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><--><-->
                    Clark D. Ritchie, ritchie at wnstar.com
               World Wide Web: http://www.wnstar.com/ritchie/


Return to table of contents


From: Charlie <merino at buggs.cynergy.com.au>
Date: Mon, 10 Jun 1996 03:25:16 +1000 (EST)
Subject: Highly Modified Protein Diet

CD Pritchard writes,

>Which brings up a possibly dumb question- what is the downside of giving 
highly
>modified malt a protein rest? 

Certainly not dumb, actually something I'm investigating.

The "protein rest" phrase in homebrew literature is usually meaningless as
it is seldom defined what this rest's purpose is. Increasing FAN because of
a poorly modified malt or high adjunct fractions?(45C) Breaking down the
HWMPs of wheat adjuncts?(58C) Breaking down B-Glucans?(38C) All these
functions are lumped under "protein rest" but are best performed at quite
different temperatures.

Yeast, like health conscious brewers, like a balanced diet. Besides trace
minerals and vitamins, they basically need *O2, sugars, lipids, and amino
acids (FAN=free amino nitrogen).* These are yeast's basic food groups.

Amino acids, as you know, are increased by *peptidase* protein rests in the
40C-55C range which break down peptides into simpler peptides and amino
acids. *Protease* rests in the 50C to 60C range will break down High
Molecular Weight Proteins (HWMP)into medium weight peptides, inproving head
*with* haze stability. 

Too much of any of these foods will cause yeast to grow unusually, producing
off flavours. Controlling levels and trouble shooting yeast nutrition is a
more detailed discussion for another time.

Premature exhaustion of any of these food groups will cause yeast to stop
growing before reaching their optimum cell count for clean fermentation.
Again sometimes noticible off flavours.

Basically, in all-malt brews, you can't have too little FAN unless you have
sourced some unusually undermodified malt which is bloody hard to come
across these days. Usually your wort (SG 1040-SG 1050) will have 700-1150
ppm Total Soluble Nitrogen (TSN) and after yeast growth, your beer will have
350-750 ppm TSN. The wort FAN fraction of the TSN is usually 1/3 to 1/2,
about 180-350ppm, but only about 30-50ppm of FAN is left in a well produced
beer.

Too much FAN can,
1/ Cause a fermentation to grow too fast, producing excess esters, isoamyl
acetate and *fusel alcohols*. This begins to happen in excess of 300 ppm
FAN, but is not significant until >450ppm. (Note: inadequate FAN has also
been linked to ester formation)

2/ Be left over in the beer. (Perhaps by yeast growth prematurly terminated
by under-oxygenation and thus poor lipid assimilation.) This leaves a
tempting nutrient for a bacterial attack on your beer.

3/ Influence the Maillard reactions between sugars and amino acids/peptides
during the boil. This influences both flavour and colour, the strict style
brewers may panic, but it should still taste good.

Amino acids and peptides also actually have taste themselves. The L-amino
acids found in beer are mostly bitter (except L-Alanine), and have
thresholds between 20ppm and 150ppm. This is usually not an issue because,
although the AA Proline (which is not consumed by yeast) survives at about
15-45ppm, its taste threshold is 300ppm. The rest are usually well below
threshold in beer.

However the higher concentrations of peptides, produced by both protease and
peptidase enzymic action, usually taste bitter or piquant. They make
desirable contributions to the flavour profile of beer, but can be overdone
by excessive protease action. The flavour of certain peptides is critical in
the Japanese drink Sake. 

To answer your question more simply;
 Don't do it unless you have high adjunct levels. Most of your TSN profile
is set at malting these days. A 55-60C rest will control HWMPs. There is
already sufficient FANs. Keep your yeast happy and they will return the 
favour!

Charlie (Brisbane, Australia)




- ------------------------------

Return to table of contents


From: Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>
Date: Sun, 09 Jun 1996 12:30:24 -0500
Subject: Have I ruined Scott Dornseif's Pale Ale?

I by chance got a call from my friend Scott Dornseif Saturday afternoon
requesting some yeast. So, I quickly drove over to his house to drop some off.

While I was there, Scott gave me a tour of his fine new Grain Storage
Facility (his closet). I noticed that he had an official BUD plaid tie
(yick! BUD). He also pointed out that I was wearing plaid shorts. YIKES!

Have I ruined his Pale Ale? Did I unconsciously go to his house with the
intention of ruining his beer? Or did this horror just happen by "chance"?

Cripes!!! I even stirred the Wort!!! 

PLEASE HELP!

- -Scott



################################################################ 
#                     ThE-HoMe-BrEw-RaT	  	               #
#                Scott Abene <skotrat at wwa.com>                 #	
# http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat (the Homebrew "Beer Slut" page) #
#                           OR                                 #
#  http://miso.wwa.com/~skotrat/Brew-Rat-Chat/ (Brew-Rat-Chat) #
#              "Get off your dead ass and brew"                #
#     "If beer is liquid bread, maybe bread is solid beer"     #
################################################################


Return to table of contents


From: hollen at vigra.com
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 96 10:31:41 PDT
Subject: Re: Clorine Dioxide

>>>>> "Joe" == Joe Rolfe <onbc at shore.net> writes:

Joe> anyone in the homebrewing trade (or commercial) have any info on
Joe> stabilized clorine dioxide as a sanitizer.

Joe> just read a texo article on use and other misc info.  seems
Joe> labatts or molson is doing some work with it.  i also know
Joe> several commercila breweries toying with it.

Joe> any comments on it (from you chem homebrewers or users).....or
Joe> anyone...  just fishing.

Do you mean Oxine from Five Star?  I am just beginning to use it in my
home brewing.  Especially nice to use at 5ppm and fill things with for
storage purposes (like counterflow chillers).  At least that is what I
think now.  Give me a year to evaulate.  The only downside I know of
is that unlike iodophor which can be easily tested for its
effectiveness (test papers for ppm and smell/color) Oxine does not
have any "easy" ppm detection method that I know of.

It has been proven in the food handling industry from what the "White
Paper" from Five Star says.  It is FDA approved as a sanitizer at 200+
ppm concentrations and FDA approved as *DRINKING WATER* at 5ppm, which
after 15 minutes of being a 5ppm solution, the water is sanitary.  

A friend of mine who owns a microbrewery is using Oxine and he really
likes the no-rinse 5ppm final rinse for his equipment.  He notes that
with iodophor, the no-rinse concentration affects the flavor of the
beer, but the oxine does not.

dion

- -- 
Dion Hollenbeck (619)597-7080x164                 Email: hollen at vigra.com
Sr. Software Engineer - Vigra Div. of Visicom Labs  San Diego, California

Return to table of contents


From: "Daniel Hertz" <hertz at acs.ucalgary.ca>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 96 10:06:23 MDT
Subject: Re: Kosher Beer

Regarding the discussion of kosher beer a few digests ago, wine
(and beer) can only be considered kosher if it is made (and
technically, consumed) according to Jewish dietary and religious laws.

I've outlined several of these in April's Winetidings Magazine
(Canada's national wine magazine); the article is entitled, 
"Kosher Wine is for Everyone".

The key point for yeasts, is that they must not be grain-based. 

Likewise, certain fining agents for wine, such as isinglass,
cannot be used. Isinglass comes from the sturgeon fish -- 
not allowed by kosher law.

Interestingly, in countries where the national beverage is beer
and not wine, beer may be substituted for sacremental purposes.

Daniel Hertz
Wine and Spirit Columnist
__________________________________________________________

    Coming Soon... Daniel Hertz's Top 100 Best Buys!
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
 Daniel Hertz  -  Uncorked! The Wine & Spirit Consultants
Suite 301, 835 - 18th Avenue S.W.  Calgary, Canada  T2T 0G9
Internet: hertz at acs.ucalgary.ca     Tel/Fax: (403) 245-8740
__________________________________________________________

Return to table of contents


From: lmatt <lmatt at nando.net>
Date: Sun, 9 Jun 1996 17:46:59 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: When beer is beer?

Much has been written in the last week about defining the exact moment at 
which the wort becomes legally beer. Even an analogy to the dreaded 
abortion issue was used. My venture at a defining moment would include 
the exact time that the yeast in the wort has created .5% alcohol by 
volume/wt depending upon state. Prior to this time, you can drink and drive 
with a non-alcoholic beverage in your hand. Once the yeast has converted 
above .5% by volume/wt to alcohol, ATF and others will have their 
jurisdiction. It's a beer!!
                                         Larry Matthews
                                         Raleigh, NC 

Return to table of contents


From: "Sharon A. Ritter" <102446.3717 at CompuServe.COM>
Date: 09 Jun 96 18:08:49 EDT
Subject: Vacuum Packers

>Mark Garetz in his info on hop storage suggests that a suitable vacuum 
packer
>for hops may be bought for $100. I can't find such a machine  here in 
the UK
>except at about $3000. Yes three thousand. Can anyone supply details of
a
>suitable machine preferably at 220V, although 110V could be acceptable,
and
>where it can be had. I could either mail order it or possibly get a 
friend to
>collect it on a trip to the US.

I recently purchased a vacuum heat sealer from my local True Value 
hardware store. It is called a Freshlock vacuum sealer (model #1631, 
110V) by Deni.  Deni is a brand name sold by Keystone Manufacturing of 
Buffalo, NY (1-800-DENI-VAC).

It cost me $40. I shopped around before purchasing this unit and I'm 
sure it is missing some bells and whistles of the more expensive units. 
It does suck and seal however! The bags that come with the unit are not 
O2 barrier bags and should not be used for hops storage (thanks HBD 
correspondents!). I am buying better bags from my whole hops supplier (I
grow my own hops for finishing but purchase bittering varieties and the 
hard to grow imports.). It takes a few cycles to seal and cut the O2 
barrier bags, and one has to squeeze the trapped air out while the 
machine is sucking, but for 40 bucks I'm happy.

        Dan Ritter in Grangeville, Idaho
        102446.3717 at compuserve.com 


Return to table of contents