---

   FORUM ON BEER, HOMEBREWING, AND RELATED ISSUES
        Shawn Steele, Digest Janitor
        Thanks to Rob Gardner for making the digest happen!

Contents:
  Wichita Festival of Beers (Rob Moline)
  Malt Mill Motor? Help! (JJBrewer at aol.com)
  Improved quality? ("Bridges, Scott")
  thermal expansion (DONBREW at aol.com)
  BOTULISM?????? (CLAY at clust1.clemson.edu)
  Re:Close call. (Kerry Drake)
  What is "maltose syrup"? (Jim Youngmeyer)
  Re:Quality on the HBD (Kerry Drake)
  re: Hydraulic conductivity of barley / re: Digest Forma ("Keith Royster")
  Steam Beer (tm) not! (Jim Busch)
  RE: LongShot Pale Ale (George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro))
  It's thinner than U think ... (Michael Owings)
  Thermal expansion of glass (gameier at fmc.com (Gary A. Meier))
  Ester Formation w/ respect to aeration, etc. (George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro))
  Re: Greenville Micro ("Decker, Robin E.")
  yeast starter (TMCASTLE at am.pnu.com)
  Maximum draw for Gott cooler ("Gregory, Guy J.")
  Homebrew and International Borders (VLIEG BRIAN S)
  RE: Ominous moves (snsi at win.bright.net (Jeff Smith))
  Chlorine Dioxide Literature ("Palmer.John")
  Beer Carbonation (herron at wadsworth.org (Bruce Herron))
  Re: yeast strains (herron at wadsworth.org (Bruce Herron))
  re:RE:rE:Re: Skunky beer ("Patrick G. Babcock")
  Re: Improved quality? (shawn at aob.org (Shawn Steele))
  Re: join the esters thread! ("Tracy Aquilla")
  Attention (bturnbaugh at kktv.com)
  pilsner (Stetson)

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----------------------------------------------------------------------

From: Rob Moline <brewer at kansas.net>
Date: Thu, 13 Jun 1996 23:51:28 -0500
Subject: Wichita Festival of Beers

Yes, it's late... Yes, I'm slack...
But the 3rd Annual Wichita Festival of Beer will be held on Saturday, 15
June in Wichita, Kansas.. This festival, originally considered by the
brewers of the region to be a "show of products distributed by Standard
Beverage...ONLY".... has developed in it's 3rd year to an event that even
the state's brew-pubs have been invited to... it seems to be a worthy and
comprehensive event this year... the only folks who won't have their beers
there are those poor SOB's (like the Little Apple) who don't
distribute...owing to the ABC laws that in effect limit the participation to
those Breweries that have a distributor....
But with the assistance of the lawyers for the Kansas ABC..who agree that
for such a limited and charitable purpose ..legislative changes may soon be
pursued.. maybe next year we will get to participate.. and you too R.D.(High
Noon Saloon!!)...

Yes...it's VERY late notice... but for those of you in the region..wondering
what to do on the 15th... check it out!

BTW... The charity is the Leukemia Society.. over 40K$ raised last year!

Cheers..
Jethro Gump


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From: JJBrewer at aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 01:49:57 -0400
Subject: Malt Mill Motor? Help!

Greetings HBDers -

In the midst of construction of my new RIMS system, I decided
to purchase a new grain mill to handle the increased amounts of
grain. NOT wanting to rekindle the mill thread, lets just say its
a high quality mill suitable for motorization. This is where my
problem begins.

The motor I bought for $15 I am unsure of how to wire the thing.
It has four wires: red (+hot?), black(-?), green (ground) and white (???).
The red and black are connected to a capacitor while the white and green
are loose. I am obviously not an electrical or motor guru, but was
hoping someone here is or at least can provide some guidance on
how to wire this, preferably with a switch, without causing my house
to burn down and that of the neighborhood. It doesnt look like I
just attach a plug to it and grind away and that capacitor makes me
awful cautious.

Pertinent Motor Data:

Manufacturer: Robbins Myers
Model:  KP-M330-B0L
115 volts
60 hertz
1050 RPM
1/15 HP
Single Phase, Continuous Duty

The capacitor has no information on it.

I appreciate any help/suggestions anyone has. I will summarize
all public and private replies.

Good Brewing,

Jamey Johns
San Ramon, CA
JJBrewer at aol.com


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From: "Bridges, Scott" <bridgess at mmsmtp.ColumbiaSC.ATTGIS.COM>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 12:45:00 PDT
Subject: Improved quality?

>From: denisb at CAM.ORG (Denis Barsalo)
>Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:32:12 -0500
>Subject: Quality on the HBD
>
>       Is it just me or have you noticed the improved quality of the posts
>on the HBD since it got moved to the AOB? What's going on, are we all on
>our best behaviour or something. I haven't seen any bad-mouthing, or silly
>ridiculous posts in over a week and a half...just intelligent, insightfull
>posts that have been a real pleasure to read. I've hardly had to page down!
>        Keep it up people.

Methinks Shawn has been doing some editing, perhaps?????
:)

Scott



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From: DONBREW at aol.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:29:23 -0400
Subject: thermal expansion

 Aaron Sepanski writes:

Am i really running the risk of thermal expansion?  Glass is a very poor
conducter of heat, that's why stirring rods and such are made of glass in
labs.  The glass ware for cooking is extremely thin in comparion to a
carboy.  For my carboy to crack, there would have to be a very quick
change in temp throughuot the glass.  Because it conducts heat /cold very
slowly this seems unreasonable doesn't it?  When i possed my question I
really wanted to no if any thing would happen to my beer not my equipment.

   You got it backwards.  If a small part of a cool carboy suddenly becomes
warm it WILL shatter.  BTW, after you have broken a carboy you will modify
your opinion of the thickness of the glass, it is incredibly thin.  Also, the
glass of a carboy is not tempered or chemically enhanced like Pyrex is.  I
once broke a carboy that had been sitting empty on the concrete floor during
the winter by touching it with the toe of my sneaker, I mean literally just
touching no movement of the carboy occurred at all!!!

Don McArthur
Falls Church, Va.


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From: CLAY at clust1.clemson.edu
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:23:22 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: BOTULISM??????

Had same problem as Kyle w/ MF canned malt.  After adding to boil, noticed
white fuzzy stuff in former air space at top of can.  Assumed it was
"just some damn mold - what the hell, I'm gonna boil it anyway."

Is my beer toxic?  How do/will I know?  (Cat doesn't like beer.  Neighbors
are friendly.  In-laws too far away.)

Product in question was wheat malt, BTW.

Thanks in advance,
C

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From: Kerry Drake <drakes at oklahoma.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:31:59 -0500
Subject: Re:Close call.

Tim Haller writes:
>...just as he walked by, it EXPLODED, sending on of the larger shards of
glass whizzing
>over the top (thank god!) of his head...
>I am 99% sure that the fermentation was finished --.  None of the other
bottles that are 'aging' in my
>basement (60 - 65 deg.) has 'popped'.
>Until this happened, I was quite satisfied with my first attempt.  It's hard
>not to do the 'w' word when something like this happens...
>
>Any ideas anyone???

I think the temp in your basement might be the -problem-.  In the winter, my
bottle storage area maintains these same temperatures and it takes a looong
time for the brew to condition, in excess of 6 weeks before it is palatable!
Now that warmer weather is here it only takes a week or so (at 70 - 80 deg).
A contributing factor may be the larger than standard bottle size of 22 oz.
There was a discussion on bottle size-vs-carbonation level a few weeks ago
with the consensus(?, like there ever really is)  being that a larger bottle
needs less priming sugar than a relatively smaller one for the same
carbonation level.  Although I use some of the same size bottles without
incident, they do seem kind of thin for the task...

Good luck, if they're done-keep 'em cool!

Kerry Drake


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From: Jim Youngmeyer <youngmeyer at POSC.org>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:38:39 -0500
Subject: What is "maltose syrup"?

On a recent trip to the UK I dropped by the CAMRA headquarters in St. =
Albans and purchased one of their books, "How to Brew Real Ale".  This =
book is full of recipes for clones of many of Britain's most popular =
ales.  I noticed that an ingredient in many of the recipes is "maltose =
syrup".  This ingredient is not mentioned in any of my other brewing =
books, although maltose is referred to as a simple, highly fermentable =
sugar.  My local homebrew shop does not carry maltose syrup.  Does =
anyone know where it can be obtained, or whether there are any suitable =
substitutes (malt extract? brown sugar?)   I want to brew an Ind. Cooper =
Burton Ale clone!

TIA,
Jim Youngmeyer
Houston, TX
youngmeyer at posc.org


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From: Kerry Drake <drakes at oklahoma.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:45:26 -0500
Subject: Re:Quality on the HBD

>From Denis Barsalo-

>        Is it just me or have you noticed the improved quality of the posts
>on the HBD since it got moved to the AOB? What's going on, are we all on
>our best behaviour or something. I haven't seen any ... silly
>ridiculous posts in over a week and a half...just intelligent...
 >       Keep it up people.
>
>Denis

Until your post Denis? I think this one falls in the same category so page
down with me <g>...
Kerry Drake


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From: "Keith Royster" <keith.royster at ponyexpress.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:49:50 -0500
Subject: re: Hydraulic conductivity of barley / re: Digest Forma

I wanted to say that I found GuyG4 at aol.com's post about hydraulic
conductivity very interesting.  I've always been amazed and
fascinated by how many different vocations can be applied to the
brewing process, which has I lot to do with why I find this hobby so
enjoyable and educational. Many of us have learned more about fluid
dynamics, metallurgy, chemistry, biology, every different kind of
engineering (except maybe nuclear =), math and unit conversions, and
now hydrogeology from homebrewing than we ever would have in the
classroom simply because we have something interesting and practical
to apply it to.  Thanks again Guy4G, for the interesting post.

- ----------------------------------------------------

On another note, Shawn informs us that the format of the HBD will be
changing becuase of its growing size:

> In order to try to solve problems with mailers that don't accept
> messages over 50,000 bytes, I am now limiting the HBD to 50,000
> bytes.  <snip>  This will result in more varied delivery times...

Just wanted to point out that this is all-the-more reason for some
of us to practice our editing skills and stop using unnecessarily
long signatures.  While I think I've noticed a decline recently in
the long signatures, I've also noticed an increase in posts where an
entire previous post is commented-out and then followed by just a
few lines of response.  Often times there is very little reason to
include the entire post you are responding to within your post.
With just a little bit of time and effort you can edit it down to a
summary and give the rest of us the HBD space to post our
submissions.  I just need you to refresh my memory, not spell it out
for me.

Keith Royster - Keith.Royster at ponyexpress.com
Mooresville, North Carolina
 at your.service - http://dezines.com/ at your.service
My RIMS page - http://dezines.com/ at your.service/RIMS
Carolina HomeBrewers - http://dezines.com/ at your.service/cbm

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From: Jim Busch <busch at eosdev2.gsfc.nasa.gov>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:22:49 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: Steam Beer (tm) not!

This is a common misperception:

<Anchor Brewing has trademarked the term "steam beer", so you won't find any
<other commercial examples in this country with the words "steam beer" on the
<label.

Fritz may wish this but I dont think it will stand up when challenged.
The mark is on Anchor Steam Beer, the exact words and logo.  It is not
on just Steam Beer.

This means I could market a beer called Victory Original Steam Beer
or a similar name.   Not that I intend to but it is nonsense to believe
that a style name can be marked.  Can Sierra tm the name Pale Ale?

The legality issues involve the determination of reasonable degree of
confusion in the marketplace.  Would Victory Original Steam Beer lead
a consumer to believe they were actually pruchasing Anchor Steam Beer?
I think not.

And yes, marks can lose their rights once a term becomes commonly used
in regular speech, such as Kleenex.

Jim Busch
(not a lawyer, so take it FWIW...., but I did work at the Patent Office
long ago....)

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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:32:30 -0700
Subject: RE: LongShot Pale Ale

     Steve's post really struck a nerve with me, so forgive me if this is
     rude.  Longshot pale ale an OKTOBERFEST?  No, it isn't at all.  The
     smell of Cascades that comes off Longshot PA is completely
     inappropriate to an Oktoberfest, as is the hop flavor, and bitter, dry
     finish.  Malt is NOT the dominant flavor in Longshot.

     Longshot pale ale may not be as hoppy as some people would like, but
     Oktoberfest IS NOT HOPPY AT ALL!!!  It is a malt-driven beer with some
     toastiness and just enough hop bitterness to make you appreciate the
     maltiness.  Look in the Winter 1995 issue of Zymurgy for the style
     guidelines.

     If you're a real hop-head, this beer may be too bland for you, but I
     think it definitely exemplifies the style adequately.

     Try tasting a Spaten Ur Marzen alongside a Longshot Pale Ale and
     you'll see my point.  I'm not really upset that you don't like
     Longshot, but I would hate to see your misconception of Oktoberfest
     continue.

     Please note:  I don't think that Sam Adams Oktoberfest is a
     particularly good example of the style.  It is too hoppy and dry.

     George De Piro        (Nyack, NY)

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From: Michael Owings <mikey at waste.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 08:37:04 -0500
Subject: It's thinner than U think ...

Aaron Sepanski wrote:
> The glass ware for cooking is extremely thin in comparion to a
> carboy.

While emptying a carboy full of sanitizing solution a few months ago I
accidentaly bumped it on the concrete lip of the outdoor drain I was dumping
it in to.

After patching up my wrist,  I went back to the drain to clean up the mess,
and was struck by the THINNESS of the walls of the carboy.  I had always
judged the thickness of the glass by the appearance of the carboy neck and
mouth,  which seem fairly thick. The walls, however,  were little thicker
than those of a champagne bottle.  I got a new appreciation for the
fragility of carboys that day,  and have since treated them with a lot more
care than I used to.

Perhaps if the carboy isn't too cold when you pour in the hot wort you won't
have a problem,  but personally,  I wouldn't risk the injury (or at least
the resultant nasty mess).
=============================================================================
Michael Owings                                            Chief of Operations
Uncle Leroi's Hazardous Materials Storage and FemtoBrewery    New Orleans, LA
=============================================================================


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From: gameier at fmc.com (Gary A. Meier)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 09:47:22 -0500
Subject: Thermal expansion of glass

Aaron Sepanski asked if thermal expansion of glass was enough of a problem
that he should worry about cracking a carboy by adding hot liquid.

Yes, you should worry about it.  The stirring rod and glass cookware you
mentioned are good examples of heat resistant glass, which undergoes
relatively little thermal expansion when heated.  Lab glassware such as
Pyrex(tm) and Kimax(tm) are other examples of glass which may be safely
heated.  The problem is that carboys and many other glass vessels are made
of less expensive "soft" glass, which expands much more when heated.  In
fact, it tends to expand so much that the vessel can only accommodate the
expansion by breaking.  Others have posted tales of breaking carboys by
pouring hot wort into them, and the consensus seems to be that you really,
really want to avoid doing this.

Gary




**************************************************************************
Gary Meier, Ph.D.                Senior Research Computational Chemist
FMC Corporation
Agricultural Products Group     phone:   (609) 951-3448
Box 8                                              fax:         (609) 951-3835
Princeton, NJ  08543                  email:     gameier at fmc.com



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From: George_De_Piro at berlex.com (George De Piro)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:41:38 -0700
Subject: Ester Formation w/ respect to aeration, etc.

     This thread is the best I've seen since subscribing...

     Anyhow, Andy Walsh asked for personal experiences in this area, so
     here are some:

     In my experience, I believe that ester production is definitely
     yeast-strain dependent.  I have done split batches with Wyeast #3068
     in an attempt to decrease the iso-amyl acetate (banana ester) that it
     kicks out (I like my Weizen more phenolic than fruity).  Aeration with
     an aquarium pump for 1.5 hours vs. shaking the carboy for 5 minutes
     did not affect ester levels (according to my taste buds; I didn't use
     GC or HPLC).  However, head retention was not very good in the
     underaerated batch (same wort).  Anybody know why?

     Wyeast #1028 (London ale) cranks out esters (especially iso-amyl
     acetate) when underaerated, but is MUCH less fruity when aerated
     adequately at pitching (aquarium pump for 1 hour).

     George De Piro   (Nyack, NY)

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From: "Decker, Robin E." <robind at rmtgvl.rmtinc.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 10:57:00 -0500
Subject: Re: Greenville Micro

Scott Bridges asks: "Caesars Head (is that the name of the brewery, or just
their brand name?)"

Caesar's Head is the brand name for the Reedy River Brewing Co. in Greer,
SC.  It is located near the Greenville-Spartanburg Jetport.  They are very
friendly, so do include them on your field trip agenda.  Also, while you are
in Asheville, check out Barley's Tap Room (there's a microbrewery in their
basement too!!).  Barley's has a true pub atmosphere, their pizza's are
great (single slices are huge), and they have all kinds of regional brews on
tap.  Its located in the heart of the Asheville shopping/ tourist district,
and is very easy to find.

Have fun!
Goldings

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From: TMCASTLE at am.pnu.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:18:40 -0400
Subject: yeast starter

  I sent this about a week ago and haven't seen it posted, if it was I
  apologize for the redundancy. I may have screwed up the addressing.
  Again, I apologize for the redundancy if this was already posted and
  I screwed up the addressing.

  Hey,

  Four issues:

  (1)  I usually add the contents of the swollen Wyeast smack-pack to
  a 1/2 gal with about 1 lb. of extra light DME to make my yeast
  starters.  Well a batch or so back, I only had about half the DME I
  needed and rather than running out to the homebrew store (being the
  lazy bastard that I am) I startd rummaging through the cupboard for
  fermentables.  Well, I found an unopened bottle of high fructose
  corn SYRUP (store brand) and added about 1/3 of it.  I boiled it
  all, cooled it down and added the Wyeast American Ale II.  Well,
  after about 3 days I had a brilliant deep burgandy colored beer
  (??!!). I haven't repeated this, but has anyone else ever heard of
  this.  It seemes like a small amount might make a nice red hue.
  Though, is it fructose that makes a cidery taste?

  (2)  Is adding a whole starter (without decanting off the fermented
  liquid) to the fermentation all that bad?  Is it a gravity & volume
  issue or can you expect some wierd tastes from beer out of sync with
  the rest of the fermentation?

  (3)  Did you know that one of Einstein's three Nobel Prizes was for
  developing the mathematics of Brownian Motion?  I don't remmber the
  other two (I think one was the photoelectric effect) but NONE of
  them were for his theories of special or general relativity (his
  calling card).

  (4)  In HBD#2061, Russell Mast lends his opinion to the question
  "when does ber become beer" by saying it is immediately before
  consumption.  Actually that's close.  It becomes beer during
  consumption.  It does not exist as beer (or at least we have no
  evidence of it being beer) until we experience it fully.  So, the
  sad part is that once it is down the tube it is beer but also ceases
  to beer as it joins with us.  Beer and not beer together in a flash
  of time.  There's a Zen Koan for the books.

  Ta,

  tom castle
  The Zen of Homebrewing
  http://www.netcom.com/~tmcastle

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From: "Gregory, Guy J." <GGRE461 at eroerm1.ecy.wa.gov>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 08:04:00 PDT
Subject: Maximum draw for Gott cooler

Gary Pelton <gap at cs.cmu.edu> asks:

>I would like to calculate what the maximum draw rate should be for
>my Gott cooler. However, I can't duplicate his calculations, because
>I don't know what "the difference in head per unit length" means.
>I've looked up "Hydraulic Gradient" in a couple of places, but haven't
>been able to find an operational definition. The one definition I
>found depended upon the velocity of the flow, which didn't seem right.

>How do I calculate "i" given some pipe (lauter tun) geometry?

Gary, hydraulic gradient is the slope of the hydraulic surface. Since water
flows downhill, "head" is the elevation of the water surface, and unit
length is measured between points where the elevation is measured.
 Obviously, in a static lautertun, there is no flow.  When you open the
valve, the surface in the lautertun and the elevation of the valve become
the gradient.  You can make some assumptions, or measure the lowest (and
thus least fast) slope from the top of the sparge water to the valve, or you
can use this equation:

K=(QL)/(deltaHA) where:
K=hydraulic conductivity
Q=discharge from the outlet
L=thichkess of grain
deltaH=change in head from sparge water surface to outlet,  basically the
vertical distance from the surface of the water to the valve,
A=Horizontal area of the grain, or pi(radius of gott cooler squared)

You'll find that ...0.5 to 1 liter per minute flow (assuming you agree with
my experiment and assumptions) is what works to maintain hydraulic
continuity between the sparge water surface and the outlet valve, and thus
not get stuck.  My lauter tun is a 5 gal HDPE pail, and should have similar
values for L, deltaH, and A.

Hope this helps.

Guy
GuyG4 at aol.com

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From: VLIEG BRIAN S <vliegbri at hvcc.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 11:34:26 EDT
Subject: Homebrew and International Borders

Thanks to all who's input has greatly improved my homebrewing.  I have a
question that some of you my have the answer to.  I will be travelling from
Upstate New York back home to Michigan this summer and would like to bring a
case of homebrew for the folks.  My concern in the US-Canadian borders in
Buffalo, NY and Port Huron, MI.  Is there any prohibition against
transportation of homebrew or homemade across international borders?

Many Thanks,
Brian

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From: snsi at win.bright.net (Jeff Smith)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 10:37:12 -0500 (CDT)
Subject: RE: Ominous moves

Steve Rosenzweig wrote about the Quebec tax proposal:

>I hope this doesn't give our US State and Federal weasels any bright
> ideas!  Seems like we may be playing right into their hands - sure,
> we'll make it legal in every state - then they can tax it!!!

Well Steve, I hate to burst your bubble but in Wisconsin beer and wine
making supplies are taxed.  This is probably where the Quebecois got the
idea in the first place.

Two years ago I mail ordered from a Beer store down south and noticed on my
receipt that there was sales tax on it.  Since I had bought only grain, malt
extract and yeast I called about the "obvious" mistake.  I talked to a clerk
and explained that I only ordered food products and should have the tax
refunded.  I was tersely told that I was wrong and tough luck.

Well still believing I was right I called the Department of Revenue (our
states official weasels) and received a fax copy of "Section Tax 11.51
Wisconsin Administrative Code" which list "beer making supplies" and "wine
making supplies" as taxable items.  Of course  I replied that this must
apply only to equipment and not to food items.  And of course I was told
that any beer expendable is taxed.

On this I did take solace in the fact that "Popcorn, raw or popped" and
"Ginseng" are taxed to.  I don't know where you live but maybe you should
check your tax code too.


Jeff Smith | '71 HD Sprint 350SX | snsi at win.bright.net | Barnes, WI
"What the world needs now is another folk singer,
like I need a hole in my head." Cracker


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From: "Palmer.John" <palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com>
Date: 14 Jun 1996 08:59:49 U
Subject: Chlorine Dioxide Literature

Hi Group,
I have been slow getting back into the swing of things after the AHA Conf. in
New Orleans, it was too much fun. Great meeting many of you, too.

Pat asked my opinion on Chlorine Dioxide the other day and I didnt have one; 
so
I looked it up in my ASM Handbook of Corrosion Data. Lo and behold, there it
was.

(Quote)
Chlorine Dioxide:
Chlorine Dioxide, ClO2 is a yellow-reddish gas. It is a very effective
bleaching and water treatment agent. Chloride dioxide is prepared by the
reaction of chlorine and sodium cholorite. It is quite unstable and is 
commonly
prepared immmediately before use. (end quote)

I will paraphrase the rest;
At temperatures ranging from 36 - 150F, at concentrations ranging from 4 - 10%
vol with strong aeration and rapid agitation in 304 Stainless Steels used at
Pulp and Paper mills, it caused severe pitting over a two week period. But
severe is defined as >.010 inch.

BUT! This data is for the pure chemical for the conditions noted. It may be
acceptable for short term use in combination with silicate buffers as the
commercial product (Oxine?). I need more data on the commercial product to
determine any risk of degradation to stainless. As a strong oxidizer, this
chemical would not be suitable for use with Brass or Copper. Aluminum I am not
sure about at this point.

Hope this helps,
John

Palmer House Brewery and Smithy  www.primenet.com/~johnj/
Metallurgist for the International Space Station  palmer at ssdgwy.mdc.com



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From: herron at wadsworth.org (Bruce Herron)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:39:40 -0400
Subject: Beer Carbonation

        I have had batches where one beer comes out flat and the next is a
gusher, and decided that I did a poor job of mixing the prining sugar before
bottling. The gravity of 3/4 dextrose in 2 cups water is much higher than
your fermented beer so it sinks to the bottom of your bottling bucket like
syrup in water. Mix the hell out of your primed beer, without allowing
oxidation. As for the rest of that batch, keep it in the corner of the
cellar ans put it straight in the cooler before drinking. As a rule I try to
leave beer in the secondary as much as two weeks after FG is reached rather
than being a couple days early. Hope this helps.
   __    __       Bruce Herron
  /  \  /  \      Developmental Genetics
 (   _""_   )     David Axelrod Institute
  -  o  o  -      120 New Scotland Ave.
    \    /        Albany, NY 12208
  ===\  /===      Phone (518) 474-3341
      O           FAX (518) 474-3181

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From: herron at wadsworth.org (Bruce Herron)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 07:51:41 -0400
Subject: Re: yeast strains

        I would suspect, as most brewing strains are selected for their
brewing characters that you could calculate a nice profile for each strain
but the numbers would fall apart when you generalize this to an entire
species. Biological systems tend to spit at numbers.
   __    __       Bruce Herron
  /  \  /  \      Developmental Genetics
 (   _""_   )     David Axelrod Institute
  -  o  o  -      120 New Scotland Ave.
    \    /        Albany, NY 12208
  ===\  /===      Phone (518) 474-3341
      O           FAX (518) 474-3181

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From: "Patrick G. Babcock" <pbabcock at ford.com>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 13:03:31 -0400
Subject: re:RE:rE:Re: Skunky beer

Greetings, Beerlings! Take me to your lager...

While Russell and Jim arm-wrestle in the corner over the half-full/half-fool
issue, let me interject and say this:

One can still *enjoy* a "defective" beer, though the same may not *satisfy*
the drinker. The level of enjoyment has changed in that you *know* there is
better to be had. That's all.

Jim enjoys a defective beer to the level that his knowledge, experience  and
personality allow him to. Perhaps he enjoys pulling the defect out,
recognizing it, and categorizing it. Nothing wrong with that, but he'd be
more happy with something not having the defect. He enjoys it, yet he's not
satisfied by it.

Russ enjoys a defective beer to the level that his knowledge, experience and
personality allow him to. That might be picking out the defect and mentally
desensitizing himself to it - enjoying it for what's right, rather than
what's wrong. Nothing wrong with that, either.

Per the above, Russ' perspective is very similar to Jack's original premise
which began this thread. He enjoys the *nostalgia* of what the rest of us
would consider a defect. Again: nothing wrong with that!

Enjoying beer is much like appreciating art or music. You may fully enjoy a
piece, but it isn't quite what you had in mind - it just doesn't satisfy. Ask
the person next to you and they point out all the nuances that please them.
You find them seeing/hearing it very differently. Sometimes you're left
envious of their perceptions; sometimes you're left thinking they're total
losers. Whatever - but the perceptions in each case are a result of the
 knowledge, personalities, and experience of those involved. There are many
different levels of enjoyment, but only one of those is true satisfaction.
And this level is a direct result of (one more time...) one's knowledge,
experience and personality - and it's different for each of us.

So now - Can't we all... just... get along?

See ya!
Pat Babcock        SE MI     pbabcock at oeonline.com
http://oeonline.com/~pbabcock/brew.html
Copyright 1996 Wrigley's Spearmint Gum. All rights reserved by pure chewing
 satisfaction. (Though I find the Doublemint Twins more satisfying...)

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From: shawn at aob.org (Shawn Steele)
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 11:10:17 MDT
Subject: Re: Improved quality?

> >From: denisb at CAM.ORG (Denis Barsalo)
> >Date: Wed, 12 Jun 1996 23:32:12 -0500
> >Subject: Quality on the HBD
> >
> >       Is it just me or have you noticed the improved quality of the
> >posts on the HBD since it got moved to the AOB? What's going on, are
> >we all on our best behaviour or something. I haven't seen any
> >bad-mouthing, or silly ridiculous posts in over a week and a
> >half...just intelligent, insightfull posts that have been a real
> >pleasure to read. I've hardly had to page down!
> >        Keep it up people.
>
> Methinks Shawn has been doing some editing, perhaps?????
> :)
>
> Scott

Sorry, you're probably just on your best behavior <G>

BTW: some Subject: lines have been coming along that have "Re:
Homebrew.Digest.#xxxx" in them and I have to resubmit those manually
and guess at what the poster's subject might be.  If you respond to the
Digest, please pick a subject :-)

I think he's right, the quality of the posts does seem to have gone up
recently, lets try to keep it that way.

- - shawn
Digest Janitor

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From: "Tracy Aquilla" <aquilla at salus.med.uvm.edu>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 96 13:57:47 CDT
Subject: Re: join the esters thread!

In Digest #2069:
Andy Walsh <awalsh at crl.com.au> wrote:
>I mistakenly attributed a quote of Tracy's to Greg Noonan,
>about ester formation in an IPA that he made. ie. From
>personal experience, Tracy has found that aeration continually
>during the fermentation of an IPA produced high ester levels.
>This was a somewhat surprising result as most texts would predict
>the opposite, but was in fact, what Tracy was looking for, after
>discussions with Greg Noonan.
>Is this right now, Tracy?

Correct, although my discussion with Greg came after making the beer.

>One might also predict that such a beer would have high diacetyl
>levels, and/or possess poor keeping qualities (oxidation). How did
>the beer actually turn out?

It's extremely fruity (apple and orange hints), noticeably alcoholic, and
bitter, but I don't detect much diacetyl or ethyl acetate. Since I
dry-hopped with about 4 oz. of EKGs (in 5 gallons), there is also a massive
hop presence which may be masking the other flavors and aromas. It's only
been in the bottle for a few months now, but so far it's holding up quite
well (no obvious oxidation). In case you haven't guessed yet, I used Wyeast
#1968-London ESB.

>I am interested in the personal experience of other readers on
>perceived ester levels in beers they have made, with or without
>aeration during fermentation.

I'm quite interested in this as well. If people do report their experiences,
I'll be keeping tab of those reports. I think one critical bit of info to
include would be the identity of the yeast strain used.
Tracy


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From: bturnbaugh at kktv.com
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 12:11:42 -0500 
Subject: Attention

                                                             Rob,
                                                                      I
am getting between 4 and 7 copies of the

HD everyday.   Would you please cut that

back to once a day?  :)    Thanks Bob.



- ------------------------------

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From: Stetson <stetson at global2000.net>
Date: Fri, 14 Jun 1996 15:47:48 -0400 (EDT)
Subject: pilsner

Hello, I brewed a pilsner, not a lager, and its been in the bottle for
about 6 to 7 weeks now.  When you first start drinking one, it has a
dusty taste to it, and after a while, it goes away.  Its not real
overwhelming, but was wondering if anybody had any suggestions on why it
tastes like this?  My sanitising and brewing process was no different
than any other time.
Thanks, and happy brewing!

stetson at global2000.net


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